1 00:00:00,240 --> 00:00:02,480 Speaker 1: How you start is really key to the rest of 2 00:00:02,520 --> 00:00:04,800 Speaker 1: the day. And a really easy trick I learned is 3 00:00:05,760 --> 00:00:10,280 Speaker 1: if you're in flow the day before, don't finish the paragraph, 4 00:00:10,440 --> 00:00:13,360 Speaker 1: so like get halfway through the paragraph and then kind 5 00:00:13,360 --> 00:00:15,720 Speaker 1: of write the next sentence. And it's really easy to 6 00:00:15,720 --> 00:00:19,000 Speaker 1: pick up. Days where you've like completed something and you're 7 00:00:19,040 --> 00:00:22,200 Speaker 1: starting again, they're harder because you're kind of starting the 8 00:00:22,200 --> 00:00:23,280 Speaker 1: engine from the scratch. 9 00:00:27,280 --> 00:00:30,000 Speaker 2: Welcome to How I Work, a show about the tactics 10 00:00:30,080 --> 00:00:32,400 Speaker 2: used by leading innovators to get so much out of 11 00:00:32,440 --> 00:00:35,559 Speaker 2: their day. I'm your host, doctor Amantha Imber. I'm an 12 00:00:35,600 --> 00:00:39,440 Speaker 2: organizational psychologist, the CEO of Inventium, and I'm obsessed with 13 00:00:39,520 --> 00:00:43,159 Speaker 2: finding ways to optimize my workday. On today's show, I 14 00:00:43,159 --> 00:00:46,080 Speaker 2: speak to a world renowned expert on technology and trust, 15 00:00:46,200 --> 00:00:49,640 Speaker 2: Rachel Botsman. I've been a fan of Rachel's work for 16 00:00:49,760 --> 00:00:52,560 Speaker 2: a while, first through her book What's Mine Is Yours 17 00:00:52,560 --> 00:00:55,760 Speaker 2: about collaborative consumption, and now through a second book, Who 18 00:00:55,760 --> 00:00:59,680 Speaker 2: Can You Trust, which explores how technology is transforming trust 19 00:00:59,680 --> 00:01:02,080 Speaker 2: and what this means for life, work and how we 20 00:01:02,120 --> 00:01:05,800 Speaker 2: do business. Rachel is a lecturer at Oxford University and 21 00:01:05,840 --> 00:01:08,360 Speaker 2: has been recognized as one of the most Creative people 22 00:01:08,360 --> 00:01:10,480 Speaker 2: in Business by Fast Company and as one of the 23 00:01:10,520 --> 00:01:14,479 Speaker 2: fifty most influential management thinkers in the world. You can 24 00:01:14,480 --> 00:01:18,880 Speaker 2: find Rachel on Twitter and LinkedIn at at Rachel Botsman 25 00:01:19,280 --> 00:01:22,200 Speaker 2: r A C H E L BO T S M 26 00:01:22,360 --> 00:01:26,040 Speaker 2: A N. In this interview, we cover a heap of ground, 27 00:01:26,319 --> 00:01:29,720 Speaker 2: arranging from how the weather affects her productivity through to 28 00:01:29,760 --> 00:01:35,279 Speaker 2: her very unusual but incredibly awesome way of crafting presentations. 29 00:01:35,800 --> 00:01:38,319 Speaker 2: Over to Rachel to find out about how she works. 30 00:01:39,280 --> 00:01:40,640 Speaker 2: Welcome to the show, Rachel. 31 00:01:40,840 --> 00:01:41,840 Speaker 1: It's a pleasure to be here. 32 00:01:42,200 --> 00:01:45,640 Speaker 2: Now. I've heard you referred to as a digital philosopher. 33 00:01:47,120 --> 00:01:50,800 Speaker 1: Not a title I gave myself. Other people gave me. 34 00:01:51,440 --> 00:01:55,560 Speaker 1: I think in the absence of titles. You know, for 35 00:01:55,600 --> 00:01:58,760 Speaker 1: some reason people they don't want to call me an 36 00:01:58,800 --> 00:02:01,080 Speaker 1: author or a teacher. It is, but it's actually a 37 00:02:01,200 --> 00:02:05,040 Speaker 1: very beautiful title because I think I've researched deeply the 38 00:02:05,120 --> 00:02:08,400 Speaker 1: role of philosophers in society, not just what philosophy is, 39 00:02:08,560 --> 00:02:12,960 Speaker 1: and a lot of it is giving people frameworks and 40 00:02:13,040 --> 00:02:15,680 Speaker 1: lenses to view the world a little bit differently, or 41 00:02:15,720 --> 00:02:20,520 Speaker 1: to simplify very complex things. And I guess that's what 42 00:02:20,600 --> 00:02:25,839 Speaker 1: I do is I study structural shifts enabled by technologies 43 00:02:25,840 --> 00:02:27,440 Speaker 1: that are having a huge impact in your lot on 44 00:02:27,680 --> 00:02:30,920 Speaker 1: our lives. So it's a big compliment. Even if it 45 00:02:30,960 --> 00:02:32,880 Speaker 1: sounds very SPONSI. 46 00:02:33,240 --> 00:02:37,000 Speaker 2: I think it's very appropriate. And your most recent book, 47 00:02:37,040 --> 00:02:40,720 Speaker 2: Who Can You Trust, came out I think late last year, 48 00:02:40,800 --> 00:02:41,320 Speaker 2: Is that right? 49 00:02:42,400 --> 00:02:47,440 Speaker 1: Yeah, so it came out Who Can You Trust? Question Mark? Yes, 50 00:02:48,120 --> 00:02:51,920 Speaker 1: it came out in October. And then I had the 51 00:02:51,919 --> 00:02:55,320 Speaker 1: bright idea that I will simultate, I would simultaneously launch 52 00:02:55,360 --> 00:02:59,119 Speaker 1: it across three continents, thinking this would be very good 53 00:02:59,160 --> 00:03:03,560 Speaker 1: in terms of focus and momentum, underestimating that that is 54 00:03:03,600 --> 00:03:04,720 Speaker 1: physically quite grilling. 55 00:03:05,280 --> 00:03:07,960 Speaker 2: I'm really keen to delve into the writing of the book. 56 00:03:08,120 --> 00:03:10,200 Speaker 2: So I want to go back in time, back to 57 00:03:10,240 --> 00:03:14,359 Speaker 2: when the publishers said, yes, let's do this book, and 58 00:03:15,000 --> 00:03:18,520 Speaker 2: talk me through the writing the creation of a book 59 00:03:18,600 --> 00:03:18,880 Speaker 2: like this. 60 00:03:20,480 --> 00:03:22,720 Speaker 1: I might be slightly different from authors, but by the 61 00:03:22,720 --> 00:03:25,840 Speaker 1: time I go to a publisher, the book is fully, 62 00:03:26,160 --> 00:03:29,600 Speaker 1: pretty fully formed in my head, like the argument the stories. 63 00:03:29,720 --> 00:03:33,840 Speaker 1: And so I wrote my first book, What's Mine Is 64 00:03:33,880 --> 00:03:36,200 Speaker 1: Yours in two thousand and nine, so this was a 65 00:03:36,240 --> 00:03:40,360 Speaker 1: pretty big gap. So I was thinking about it for 66 00:03:40,400 --> 00:03:46,560 Speaker 1: about five years so I hate the proposal process, just 67 00:03:46,560 --> 00:03:48,920 Speaker 1: to be honest with you, like proposals are very strange, 68 00:03:48,920 --> 00:03:51,080 Speaker 1: like a mixture of a marketing document and trying to 69 00:03:51,120 --> 00:03:55,080 Speaker 1: show your voice. But then once they said to the 70 00:03:55,080 --> 00:03:58,840 Speaker 1: publishers Penguin, once they say go I think I finished 71 00:03:58,920 --> 00:04:05,000 Speaker 1: in seven months, we start to finish. And then with 72 00:04:05,080 --> 00:04:07,040 Speaker 1: everything that started to go on with Brexit and the 73 00:04:07,120 --> 00:04:12,200 Speaker 1: US elections, they actually chopped. So I was meant to 74 00:04:12,240 --> 00:04:14,160 Speaker 1: deliver in April and then they said, no, you are 75 00:04:14,200 --> 00:04:16,159 Speaker 1: to deliver end of January, so they chopped. So I 76 00:04:16,160 --> 00:04:19,640 Speaker 1: had to write really fast, and at first when they 77 00:04:19,680 --> 00:04:22,000 Speaker 1: said that, I was like, there's no way this is 78 00:04:22,080 --> 00:04:25,240 Speaker 1: going to happen. And it was good. 79 00:04:25,040 --> 00:04:25,440 Speaker 2: In a way. 80 00:04:25,480 --> 00:04:27,400 Speaker 1: I mean, I think it was a little too much pressure. 81 00:04:27,440 --> 00:04:30,120 Speaker 1: But it's always interesting what those time constraints can do. 82 00:04:30,480 --> 00:04:32,599 Speaker 2: Wow, And so what did a typical day look like 83 00:04:33,520 --> 00:04:38,320 Speaker 2: during during what is a very time constrained for a 84 00:04:38,320 --> 00:04:40,920 Speaker 2: few months to write a full book in So what 85 00:04:42,000 --> 00:04:43,839 Speaker 2: does a typical day of writing look like for you 86 00:04:43,880 --> 00:04:44,880 Speaker 2: when you're in that phase? 87 00:04:45,839 --> 00:04:48,400 Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean, as I said, I'm probably I don't 88 00:04:48,440 --> 00:04:50,479 Speaker 1: know if this is different from some authors in that 89 00:04:50,600 --> 00:04:54,200 Speaker 1: a lot of the interviews were done. And one of 90 00:04:54,279 --> 00:04:56,640 Speaker 1: the things I find is absolutely key is when people 91 00:04:56,680 --> 00:04:59,159 Speaker 1: say to me, I just can't finish the book, I'm like, 92 00:04:59,400 --> 00:05:03,760 Speaker 1: we'll have you of schedule. And by clearing the schedule, 93 00:05:03,800 --> 00:05:06,120 Speaker 1: I mean nothing. I mean it's got to be like 94 00:05:06,200 --> 00:05:08,800 Speaker 1: your kid's life and death, your health, like a ball 95 00:05:08,839 --> 00:05:13,800 Speaker 1: meeting you have to absolutely legally attend, because even when 96 00:05:13,880 --> 00:05:16,480 Speaker 1: you have like a one hour meeting or an interview, 97 00:05:16,520 --> 00:05:23,560 Speaker 1: you change your state. And so I found that focus 98 00:05:24,880 --> 00:05:29,560 Speaker 1: absolutely critical to find that momentum and to get frustrated 99 00:05:29,600 --> 00:05:31,960 Speaker 1: and bored with the material, but to keep forcing yourself 100 00:05:32,000 --> 00:05:34,599 Speaker 1: to come back to it because you hit these walls, 101 00:05:34,600 --> 00:05:37,440 Speaker 1: and if you've got other things going on, they're the 102 00:05:37,480 --> 00:05:40,000 Speaker 1: excuse or distraction to actually not deal with the tough 103 00:05:40,200 --> 00:05:42,200 Speaker 1: parts that you're trying to push through in the material. 104 00:05:43,640 --> 00:05:47,120 Speaker 2: So would you write for eight hours a day? Like, 105 00:05:47,160 --> 00:05:48,400 Speaker 2: what would that look like? 106 00:05:49,000 --> 00:05:52,560 Speaker 1: No? I mean I think you have what I call, 107 00:05:53,080 --> 00:05:56,039 Speaker 1: for lack of better term, big strides days. So you 108 00:05:56,120 --> 00:05:59,240 Speaker 1: have days where and you don't know when they're going 109 00:05:59,279 --> 00:06:02,039 Speaker 1: to come. So it's not like you can say, well, 110 00:06:02,120 --> 00:06:03,800 Speaker 1: you know, a researcher for four days, it's gonna be 111 00:06:03,800 --> 00:06:05,719 Speaker 1: a big stride date you just sit down and it's 112 00:06:05,800 --> 00:06:09,719 Speaker 1: like a powerhouse. It's just you forget going to the toilet. 113 00:06:09,800 --> 00:06:11,880 Speaker 1: You've just it's like you can do four or five 114 00:06:11,920 --> 00:06:14,560 Speaker 1: thousand words. So I've never been one of these people's 115 00:06:14,640 --> 00:06:16,520 Speaker 1: like I'm going to do fifteen hundred words a day, 116 00:06:17,360 --> 00:06:19,839 Speaker 1: because sometimes some days you'll write two hundred words. But 117 00:06:19,880 --> 00:06:22,080 Speaker 1: it's the key section of the book. So I find 118 00:06:22,120 --> 00:06:27,080 Speaker 1: those goals quite artificial, you know, if you're moving at 119 00:06:27,080 --> 00:06:30,159 Speaker 1: the right pace. So one of the things that I 120 00:06:30,200 --> 00:06:34,279 Speaker 1: will set is like chapter goals, right, so I will 121 00:06:34,320 --> 00:06:37,480 Speaker 1: wake up. I now have children, so this privilege of 122 00:06:38,040 --> 00:06:41,080 Speaker 1: the six to nine slot, which is absolutely precious for 123 00:06:41,200 --> 00:06:42,880 Speaker 1: me when it comes to writing, has gone. 124 00:06:43,080 --> 00:06:45,320 Speaker 2: So the six to nine am slush. Yeah. 125 00:06:45,360 --> 00:06:47,040 Speaker 1: So because I used to go to bed and think 126 00:06:47,080 --> 00:06:49,120 Speaker 1: about it and write and then want to wake up 127 00:06:49,200 --> 00:06:50,800 Speaker 1: and write, and I could do more in those three 128 00:06:50,839 --> 00:06:53,680 Speaker 1: hours than I could do for the rest of the day. 129 00:06:54,440 --> 00:06:57,080 Speaker 1: And when I first have my son, to be honest, 130 00:06:57,120 --> 00:07:01,080 Speaker 1: I was quite resemful that I thought, well, you know, 131 00:07:01,120 --> 00:07:04,040 Speaker 1: I'm never going to find that productivity again. And then 132 00:07:04,080 --> 00:07:06,039 Speaker 1: you get to a place of acceptance where it's like, well, 133 00:07:06,120 --> 00:07:08,120 Speaker 1: you know your children are there, and they don't have 134 00:07:08,160 --> 00:07:09,960 Speaker 1: any understanding around this, and you have to drop them 135 00:07:09,960 --> 00:07:14,040 Speaker 1: off at school. So one of the tricks I've found 136 00:07:14,240 --> 00:07:19,680 Speaker 1: is how you settle, how you start is really key 137 00:07:19,720 --> 00:07:21,520 Speaker 1: to the rest of the day. And a really easy 138 00:07:21,560 --> 00:07:24,960 Speaker 1: trick I learned is if you're in flow the day before, 139 00:07:25,520 --> 00:07:30,000 Speaker 1: don't finish the paragraph, so like get halfway through the 140 00:07:30,000 --> 00:07:32,160 Speaker 1: paragraph and then kind of write the next sentence. And 141 00:07:32,240 --> 00:07:35,520 Speaker 1: it's really easy to pick up. Days where you've like 142 00:07:35,600 --> 00:07:39,280 Speaker 1: completed something and you're starting again, they're harder because you're 143 00:07:39,320 --> 00:07:40,920 Speaker 1: kind of starting the engine from scratch. 144 00:07:41,400 --> 00:07:43,480 Speaker 2: It's interesting. We were talking about Adam Grant before we 145 00:07:43,560 --> 00:07:46,480 Speaker 2: started recording, and he gives us the exact same technique 146 00:07:46,600 --> 00:07:50,000 Speaker 2: where he will kind of finish. I think Ernest Hemingway 147 00:07:50,040 --> 00:07:52,960 Speaker 2: described it like packing on a downhill slope or something 148 00:07:53,040 --> 00:07:56,360 Speaker 2: like that. That's interesting to hear that that works for 149 00:07:56,400 --> 00:07:59,640 Speaker 2: you as well. And so you mentioned like the six 150 00:07:59,760 --> 00:08:02,080 Speaker 2: to nine am slot when you're a mom, that's gone, 151 00:08:02,120 --> 00:08:06,160 Speaker 2: and I've definitely experienced that myself. So what replaced that. 152 00:08:08,800 --> 00:08:11,080 Speaker 1: Well, it's not just what replaced that. The other thing 153 00:08:11,200 --> 00:08:14,680 Speaker 1: I think people underestimate is that sixty nine slot requires 154 00:08:14,720 --> 00:08:17,600 Speaker 1: a lot of energy and you've probably experienced if you're 155 00:08:17,600 --> 00:08:19,640 Speaker 1: not present for them, or if you're on a rush, 156 00:08:19,720 --> 00:08:22,600 Speaker 1: they move backwards, so they take their clothes off, you know, 157 00:08:22,680 --> 00:08:26,080 Speaker 1: like it's nothing happens, right, So it's saying like these 158 00:08:26,160 --> 00:08:30,240 Speaker 1: these hours are yours, and then then whatever you do, 159 00:08:30,360 --> 00:08:33,840 Speaker 1: how you switch from that mode to this concentration mode 160 00:08:33,880 --> 00:08:36,600 Speaker 1: is really important. So I don't know, maybe it's because 161 00:08:36,640 --> 00:08:40,040 Speaker 1: I'm British, but the team making the process of making 162 00:08:40,200 --> 00:08:42,800 Speaker 1: tea properly making tea in a teapot and sitting down 163 00:08:42,840 --> 00:08:46,040 Speaker 1: and drinking it. And then I always try and read 164 00:08:46,120 --> 00:08:48,520 Speaker 1: something that is not mine, but I think it's brilliant, 165 00:08:48,520 --> 00:08:51,840 Speaker 1: and I'll have a stack of things and it quietens 166 00:08:51,880 --> 00:08:55,600 Speaker 1: you down, especially if it's me in a racy morning 167 00:08:55,920 --> 00:08:58,200 Speaker 1: or there's something happened that you can't control. And so 168 00:08:59,080 --> 00:09:03,840 Speaker 1: really what you're doing is controlling your state. And anything 169 00:09:03,840 --> 00:09:06,120 Speaker 1: can happen on the way to work or on the 170 00:09:06,200 --> 00:09:07,920 Speaker 1: drop off of the kids, but you're saying, I'm in 171 00:09:07,960 --> 00:09:10,800 Speaker 1: control of that because I have these mechanisms and tricks 172 00:09:10,800 --> 00:09:15,599 Speaker 1: and food and drink and listening as well. So I 173 00:09:15,720 --> 00:09:18,480 Speaker 1: found like podcasts or listening to other books, not so 174 00:09:18,520 --> 00:09:21,240 Speaker 1: that you're totally immersed in it, but you've switched mode 175 00:09:21,280 --> 00:09:22,400 Speaker 1: in a very conscious way. 176 00:09:23,840 --> 00:09:29,040 Speaker 2: So the tea they're reading something that's quite inspiring and powerful. 177 00:09:29,200 --> 00:09:31,960 Speaker 2: Has that almost become like a ritual to get you 178 00:09:32,040 --> 00:09:34,880 Speaker 2: into that sort of work state or a flow state. 179 00:09:35,360 --> 00:09:37,280 Speaker 1: Yeah, no, definitely. I Mean the other thing is I 180 00:09:37,360 --> 00:09:41,680 Speaker 1: have I write with a pan and pen a lot. 181 00:09:41,720 --> 00:09:43,439 Speaker 1: So the other thing is I will write a list 182 00:09:43,520 --> 00:09:46,240 Speaker 1: of things that I've got to get through. And you 183 00:09:46,240 --> 00:09:49,440 Speaker 1: know when you're in writing mode, like I've got to 184 00:09:49,440 --> 00:09:52,319 Speaker 1: read this paper, I've got whatever it is, but it's 185 00:09:52,320 --> 00:09:57,520 Speaker 1: still a to do list. And then it's also I 186 00:09:57,640 --> 00:10:00,560 Speaker 1: literally write the time the day where I'm going to 187 00:10:00,559 --> 00:10:06,640 Speaker 1: deal with other things, and like that's the religion, that's 188 00:10:06,679 --> 00:10:10,240 Speaker 1: the discipline, right, Like especially on the days where we're 189 00:10:10,240 --> 00:10:12,559 Speaker 1: like I really don't want to write, like the temptation 190 00:10:12,880 --> 00:10:18,280 Speaker 1: to just shot for shoes or do email. I always 191 00:10:18,360 --> 00:10:21,040 Speaker 1: know when things are going really bad because I do invoicing, 192 00:10:21,280 --> 00:10:24,840 Speaker 1: which I hate. And it's also not been too harm 193 00:10:24,920 --> 00:10:27,720 Speaker 1: with yourself, like those days your mind is doing something. 194 00:10:28,120 --> 00:10:31,679 Speaker 1: I really believe this, it's tripping for a reason, and 195 00:10:31,920 --> 00:10:34,760 Speaker 1: you kind of have to let it do that, but 196 00:10:34,840 --> 00:10:37,480 Speaker 1: also know when okay, I've done that now, for three 197 00:10:37,520 --> 00:10:39,520 Speaker 1: days in a row. There's no more billing to be done. 198 00:10:40,400 --> 00:10:41,640 Speaker 1: It's back to the discipline. 199 00:10:41,760 --> 00:10:44,480 Speaker 2: Yeah, I want to come back to the big stride days. 200 00:10:44,520 --> 00:10:47,679 Speaker 2: And I'm curious if you've ever thought about what are 201 00:10:47,679 --> 00:10:50,319 Speaker 2: the precursors to a big stride day? Have you ever 202 00:10:50,320 --> 00:10:52,760 Speaker 2: thought what if they all got in common? I have. 203 00:10:54,120 --> 00:10:59,920 Speaker 1: Sleep number one. It's like absolutely key, like when you ironic. 204 00:11:00,080 --> 00:11:01,760 Speaker 1: It's when you're not thinking about the work and you're 205 00:11:01,800 --> 00:11:05,120 Speaker 1: well rested. And there's a difference I think between They 206 00:11:05,160 --> 00:11:07,280 Speaker 1: don't often all for me anyway, they don't happen on 207 00:11:07,320 --> 00:11:11,040 Speaker 1: a Monday, so it's not about the weekend of recharging 208 00:11:11,080 --> 00:11:14,840 Speaker 1: and wrestling. It's just literally you've slept really well. So 209 00:11:14,920 --> 00:11:16,640 Speaker 1: I think a lot of it is tied to your 210 00:11:16,880 --> 00:11:24,319 Speaker 1: physical mental state. They often come when you've been wrestling 211 00:11:24,360 --> 00:11:30,000 Speaker 1: with something, so especially when you're trying to really get 212 00:11:30,040 --> 00:11:34,520 Speaker 1: to the heart of something quite complex. I often find 213 00:11:34,559 --> 00:11:39,000 Speaker 1: they come also when you've been inspired by something, and 214 00:11:39,040 --> 00:11:41,360 Speaker 1: it can be something very small, like you read a 215 00:11:41,440 --> 00:11:47,480 Speaker 1: sentence or so it's they're the consistent conditions. Whether for 216 00:11:47,600 --> 00:11:52,480 Speaker 1: me also is really big, so I write really well 217 00:11:52,480 --> 00:11:55,720 Speaker 1: when it's raining. I think it's because there's nowhere else 218 00:11:55,760 --> 00:12:01,280 Speaker 1: to go Zell the UK client. But if you don't 219 00:12:01,280 --> 00:12:03,760 Speaker 1: go on it's the most beautiful day. You know, you'll 220 00:12:03,760 --> 00:12:05,720 Speaker 1: think when can I go for that walk? Or maybe 221 00:12:05,720 --> 00:12:09,200 Speaker 1: I'll read outside in the sunshine. So it's like this 222 00:12:09,440 --> 00:12:12,080 Speaker 1: inward focusing. If the impact of the rain. 223 00:12:12,520 --> 00:12:15,839 Speaker 2: That's that's fascinating, it kind of gets you focused because 224 00:12:15,840 --> 00:12:19,400 Speaker 2: there's nothing else to do to procrastinate on outside. Yeah, 225 00:12:19,600 --> 00:12:21,880 Speaker 2: and I want to know, like you talked about invoicing 226 00:12:21,960 --> 00:12:23,520 Speaker 2: being the kind of thing that you know you might 227 00:12:23,600 --> 00:12:27,600 Speaker 2: go to or it's very sad, very very sad, but 228 00:12:27,800 --> 00:12:30,920 Speaker 2: very understandable when you're trying to tackle a tough task. 229 00:12:31,840 --> 00:12:34,520 Speaker 2: How how do you like, do you have you know, 230 00:12:34,600 --> 00:12:37,000 Speaker 2: anything that you do or rules that you set yourself 231 00:12:37,120 --> 00:12:40,520 Speaker 2: or tricks that you that you use to stay focused 232 00:12:40,559 --> 00:12:42,959 Speaker 2: on tasks that can be hard to push through and 233 00:12:43,400 --> 00:12:47,199 Speaker 2: try to sort of push out the various digital distractions 234 00:12:47,200 --> 00:12:47,840 Speaker 2: that are out there. 235 00:12:50,440 --> 00:12:53,160 Speaker 1: I'm not going to lie. I mean, it's it's really difficult, 236 00:12:53,280 --> 00:12:57,560 Speaker 1: and but this is the most basic advice. The way 237 00:12:57,600 --> 00:13:01,160 Speaker 1: you start your day, you will continue. So I call 238 00:13:01,200 --> 00:13:05,080 Speaker 1: it like that monkey brain that jumping right. So if 239 00:13:05,120 --> 00:13:08,679 Speaker 1: you are going through the check Twitter check Instagram, check LinkedIn, 240 00:13:08,840 --> 00:13:13,360 Speaker 1: check email check, blah blah blah. You've put yourself physically 241 00:13:13,360 --> 00:13:16,520 Speaker 1: in this racing mode. I mean, I don't understand neurologically 242 00:13:16,520 --> 00:13:20,240 Speaker 1: what's going on, but you understand physically you feel very different. 243 00:13:21,200 --> 00:13:25,200 Speaker 1: And so I think this idea. I'm not a believer 244 00:13:25,320 --> 00:13:27,440 Speaker 1: that you get everything out the way. You know, so 245 00:13:27,559 --> 00:13:29,600 Speaker 1: some people and it works to some people, like I'm 246 00:13:29,600 --> 00:13:32,360 Speaker 1: gonna do email eight to nine and then it will 247 00:13:32,360 --> 00:13:36,400 Speaker 1: be a clean slate. There's usually something in that email 248 00:13:36,440 --> 00:13:39,040 Speaker 1: that comes up that you have to deal with, or 249 00:13:39,040 --> 00:13:42,840 Speaker 1: that bothers you, or that requires more than five minutes 250 00:13:43,160 --> 00:13:46,720 Speaker 1: to answer. So the way you start your day really 251 00:13:46,760 --> 00:13:50,360 Speaker 1: sets the rest of the day. And that's I've become 252 00:13:50,480 --> 00:13:53,960 Speaker 1: far more disciplined around that. And even like I can't 253 00:13:53,960 --> 00:13:58,960 Speaker 1: believe for years my phone was my alarm. It's such 254 00:13:59,000 --> 00:14:02,560 Speaker 1: a stupid thing to do with audue respect. It's so 255 00:14:02,840 --> 00:14:06,520 Speaker 1: it's like, you know, it's like waking up and having 256 00:14:06,520 --> 00:14:10,320 Speaker 1: a can of coke there, Like it's just there's no 257 00:14:10,400 --> 00:14:13,160 Speaker 1: way I could resist the temptation. And I thought I 258 00:14:13,200 --> 00:14:15,240 Speaker 1: was being super efficient because I thought, you know, if 259 00:14:15,240 --> 00:14:17,160 Speaker 1: I set my arm for six fifteen, my kids typically 260 00:14:17,160 --> 00:14:18,880 Speaker 1: wake up a six forty five. I can do half 261 00:14:18,880 --> 00:14:20,880 Speaker 1: an hour of emails and wow, I'm super mom. And 262 00:14:20,920 --> 00:14:22,560 Speaker 1: then they wake up and everything's clear, and then I 263 00:14:22,560 --> 00:14:24,280 Speaker 1: can have their breakfast, make their life. You know, like, 264 00:14:24,840 --> 00:14:27,240 Speaker 1: listen to the pace of it. There's no way you're 265 00:14:27,240 --> 00:14:30,480 Speaker 1: going to start your day and be able to Yeah, 266 00:14:30,840 --> 00:14:32,320 Speaker 1: or some people maybe, but not for me. 267 00:14:32,720 --> 00:14:35,760 Speaker 2: Was there a moment in time where you know, you 268 00:14:35,800 --> 00:14:38,160 Speaker 2: had your phone as your alarm and you're checking emails 269 00:14:38,200 --> 00:14:40,120 Speaker 2: first thing in the morning and it kind of dawns 270 00:14:40,160 --> 00:14:41,960 Speaker 2: on you what am I doing? Or was it a 271 00:14:42,000 --> 00:14:43,800 Speaker 2: gradual shift. 272 00:14:46,120 --> 00:14:47,960 Speaker 1: I think I realized it, but I didn't change the 273 00:14:48,000 --> 00:14:50,880 Speaker 1: behavior for a long time. I think I realized it 274 00:14:50,960 --> 00:14:57,040 Speaker 1: when I really shortsighted, so I have to put my 275 00:14:57,120 --> 00:15:00,920 Speaker 1: lenses into sea and I remember, like the fuck turning 276 00:15:00,960 --> 00:15:03,320 Speaker 1: the phone on. I sleep with airplane mode, right, so 277 00:15:03,720 --> 00:15:06,400 Speaker 1: at least it wasn't dinging and ring and it was 278 00:15:06,400 --> 00:15:09,080 Speaker 1: pitched back in the room. My husband's asleep, and it's like, 279 00:15:09,280 --> 00:15:11,480 Speaker 1: what I appen to my face? And I'm like, what 280 00:15:11,840 --> 00:15:15,280 Speaker 1: haven't even put my lenses in? Like do you know 281 00:15:15,360 --> 00:15:18,200 Speaker 1: what I mean? Like, this is not how human beings 282 00:15:18,240 --> 00:15:21,440 Speaker 1: are meant to wake up? My feet haven't even touched 283 00:15:21,480 --> 00:15:25,000 Speaker 1: the ground. And one of the things I try. You know, 284 00:15:25,080 --> 00:15:28,000 Speaker 1: I'm not a particularly religious person, but every morning when 285 00:15:28,000 --> 00:15:30,400 Speaker 1: my feet touch the ground, I try and ask myself, like, 286 00:15:30,440 --> 00:15:31,280 Speaker 1: why am I doing this? 287 00:15:31,920 --> 00:15:32,080 Speaker 2: One? 288 00:15:32,080 --> 00:15:34,160 Speaker 1: Am I grateful for? What do I want to achieve today? 289 00:15:34,720 --> 00:15:38,640 Speaker 1: And even I think that's my one minute mindfulness, that's 290 00:15:38,760 --> 00:15:42,480 Speaker 1: what I can do. But it's really you know, when 291 00:15:42,520 --> 00:15:43,640 Speaker 1: you come back to the end of the day and 292 00:15:43,680 --> 00:15:45,920 Speaker 1: you think, like, did I do that? Do I achieve that? 293 00:15:46,040 --> 00:15:49,560 Speaker 1: How a balance was I? And it's for me it's 294 00:15:49,680 --> 00:15:51,920 Speaker 1: been a form of self reflection that if you keep 295 00:15:52,000 --> 00:15:56,360 Speaker 1: missing it, there's probably something physical or time based that 296 00:15:56,440 --> 00:16:00,440 Speaker 1: you have to address to Maybe you don't have enough support, 297 00:16:00,560 --> 00:16:02,040 Speaker 1: or you don't have enough support the right end of 298 00:16:02,080 --> 00:16:04,680 Speaker 1: the day, maybe you're eating wrong. Whatever it is, there's 299 00:16:04,720 --> 00:16:07,120 Speaker 1: something structurally you can probably change. 300 00:16:08,320 --> 00:16:10,080 Speaker 2: So now I assume you've got an old fashioned a 301 00:16:10,200 --> 00:16:10,680 Speaker 2: lamb cluck. 302 00:16:11,360 --> 00:16:13,920 Speaker 1: Next I do, yeah, And my son's learned how to 303 00:16:13,960 --> 00:16:16,120 Speaker 1: work it. So it went off like four am the 304 00:16:16,160 --> 00:16:18,840 Speaker 1: other day. I was like, can I bring the phone? 305 00:16:20,280 --> 00:16:20,960 Speaker 2: I love that? 306 00:16:21,160 --> 00:16:21,640 Speaker 1: Yeah? 307 00:16:21,840 --> 00:16:25,880 Speaker 2: Oh wow. And so you're saying like it's really important 308 00:16:25,880 --> 00:16:28,040 Speaker 2: to set your day up well and how you want 309 00:16:28,040 --> 00:16:31,160 Speaker 2: it to flow. And so with that, what time would 310 00:16:31,200 --> 00:16:34,400 Speaker 2: you first check your inbox or Twitter feed or Instagram 311 00:16:34,440 --> 00:16:37,760 Speaker 2: feed on a good day. 312 00:16:37,840 --> 00:16:41,120 Speaker 1: It's it's different now because I'm not in that writing mode. 313 00:16:41,200 --> 00:16:43,840 Speaker 1: It really, I mean, it's it really does switch, right, 314 00:16:44,000 --> 00:16:46,440 Speaker 1: So there's no way I stuck to these rules when 315 00:16:46,480 --> 00:16:48,080 Speaker 1: I was on the book tour. I mean, you're like 316 00:16:48,280 --> 00:16:51,400 Speaker 1: responding to media inquiries. So I think this is one 317 00:16:51,440 --> 00:16:53,520 Speaker 1: of the key things is you don't have to be 318 00:16:53,600 --> 00:16:56,520 Speaker 1: in this state all the time. But when you're working 319 00:16:56,560 --> 00:17:00,680 Speaker 1: on a project that has a massive artifact or just 320 00:17:00,760 --> 00:17:04,240 Speaker 1: by design requires concentration, you're going to have to redesign 321 00:17:04,280 --> 00:17:09,080 Speaker 1: and restructure your day. Now it looks quite different. So 322 00:17:09,240 --> 00:17:12,960 Speaker 1: now I'm actually back into this, Like I'll do emails 323 00:17:13,040 --> 00:17:18,119 Speaker 1: nine to ten, but then I won't get into the habit. 324 00:17:18,320 --> 00:17:21,800 Speaker 1: I'll turn it off and then I'll probably check it 325 00:17:21,840 --> 00:17:25,520 Speaker 1: again around four o'clock and people who know me and 326 00:17:25,600 --> 00:17:28,040 Speaker 1: know who need to get hold of me, they will 327 00:17:28,040 --> 00:17:33,400 Speaker 1: text me. So that's the thing, Like, there are ways 328 00:17:33,440 --> 00:17:35,560 Speaker 1: that people can get hold of you if it's really 329 00:17:35,680 --> 00:17:37,000 Speaker 1: truly time sensitive. 330 00:17:37,800 --> 00:17:41,960 Speaker 2: That's very disciplined. So checking emails twice a day, yeah, 331 00:17:42,520 --> 00:17:46,399 Speaker 2: that's cool. I want to switch gears and talk about presentations. 332 00:17:46,440 --> 00:17:48,000 Speaker 2: Because you do a lot of presenting, a lot of 333 00:17:48,119 --> 00:17:51,920 Speaker 2: keynote speeches. I would imagine that that's probably a large 334 00:17:51,920 --> 00:17:55,920 Speaker 2: pat of a typical week for you. Would that be fair. 335 00:17:55,720 --> 00:18:00,600 Speaker 1: To say yes and no. So the other thing I 336 00:18:00,800 --> 00:18:03,960 Speaker 1: learned is that when you look at when I look 337 00:18:04,000 --> 00:18:07,359 Speaker 1: at my calendar, I should say, and you can go, oh, right, like, 338 00:18:07,520 --> 00:18:11,199 Speaker 1: so I'm going to do four speeches this month, and 339 00:18:11,240 --> 00:18:13,960 Speaker 1: there's oh, it looks so nice, evenly distributed, you know, 340 00:18:14,560 --> 00:18:17,479 Speaker 1: one in Los Angeles, one in Munich, like one per week. 341 00:18:18,480 --> 00:18:22,080 Speaker 1: For me, it's not the way to structure time because 342 00:18:22,720 --> 00:18:25,800 Speaker 1: the speeches they require Yes, you do it a lot, 343 00:18:25,800 --> 00:18:29,360 Speaker 1: but they still require prep. Then you've got the travel, 344 00:18:30,080 --> 00:18:32,560 Speaker 1: then you've got the delivery, and then you've got the 345 00:18:32,560 --> 00:18:37,119 Speaker 1: return trip home. So unless they're in domestic, even if 346 00:18:37,160 --> 00:18:40,040 Speaker 1: they're domestic, even they're Melbourne based, it's four days. So 347 00:18:40,119 --> 00:18:43,200 Speaker 1: if you've got four speeches, it's actually a month gone. 348 00:18:44,720 --> 00:18:49,919 Speaker 1: So I've now found I think of them as delivery weeks. 349 00:18:50,080 --> 00:18:54,160 Speaker 1: I think of them as sort of OUTWK facing weeks 350 00:18:54,720 --> 00:18:59,720 Speaker 1: where I know I'm going to be speaking and interacting 351 00:18:59,800 --> 00:19:03,160 Speaker 1: with a lot of people and then I will have 352 00:19:03,480 --> 00:19:07,440 Speaker 1: so I clustered them. So like last week I had 353 00:19:07,480 --> 00:19:11,520 Speaker 1: seven speeches, but I won't do any now for three. 354 00:19:13,040 --> 00:19:18,600 Speaker 1: And on the calendar it's blocked teaching prep because I'm 355 00:19:18,640 --> 00:19:21,879 Speaker 1: about to deliver a new course at Oxford and that 356 00:19:22,119 --> 00:19:25,679 Speaker 1: blocking has been and the blocking I still don't think 357 00:19:25,680 --> 00:19:27,919 Speaker 1: I've got right because I've been blocking in weeks and 358 00:19:27,960 --> 00:19:30,760 Speaker 1: I think I have to be blocking in a fortnite fortnightly 359 00:19:31,400 --> 00:19:36,800 Speaker 1: even though I'm not working on another big book. So yeah, 360 00:19:36,880 --> 00:19:40,480 Speaker 1: so like article to write block and then I'll do 361 00:19:40,560 --> 00:19:41,760 Speaker 1: like meeting days as well. 362 00:19:42,080 --> 00:19:46,320 Speaker 2: M Okay, that's so kind of batching it, I guess 363 00:19:46,600 --> 00:19:50,480 Speaker 2: is yeah, yeah, I want to I want to look 364 00:19:50,560 --> 00:19:54,159 Speaker 2: at how how you prepare for a speech, and and 365 00:19:54,200 --> 00:19:57,000 Speaker 2: I'm curious as to how that's changed in the last 366 00:19:57,040 --> 00:20:00,280 Speaker 2: five years because I've heard you talk about how you 367 00:20:00,320 --> 00:20:03,000 Speaker 2: feel like you've learnt so much around giving a good 368 00:20:03,000 --> 00:20:05,960 Speaker 2: speech and how you do prepare. So can you talk 369 00:20:06,040 --> 00:20:08,520 Speaker 2: me through what does that look like? How do you 370 00:20:08,560 --> 00:20:12,560 Speaker 2: prepare for a speech? So I think the. 371 00:20:12,560 --> 00:20:17,439 Speaker 1: Main I can't watch early speeches like it's quite for me. 372 00:20:17,560 --> 00:20:22,560 Speaker 1: I can see how clumsy they are, and in terms 373 00:20:22,560 --> 00:20:27,440 Speaker 1: of the preparation, I've found that you can speak to 374 00:20:27,480 --> 00:20:31,920 Speaker 1: the event organizer, and with all due respect, they'll tell 375 00:20:31,960 --> 00:20:34,760 Speaker 1: you the number of people that's going to be in 376 00:20:34,840 --> 00:20:36,280 Speaker 1: the room, and they'll tell you what the room's like, 377 00:20:36,359 --> 00:20:38,520 Speaker 1: and they'll tell you what they wanted to talk about. 378 00:20:39,560 --> 00:20:41,720 Speaker 1: But then I always know if I'm talking to the 379 00:20:41,800 --> 00:20:45,040 Speaker 1: right person because I say, well, why do you really 380 00:20:45,080 --> 00:20:47,919 Speaker 1: want me there? And why have you put me in 381 00:20:48,000 --> 00:20:51,520 Speaker 1: this particular slot? And how do you want your audience 382 00:20:51,560 --> 00:20:54,600 Speaker 1: to feel? And this was a really new question that 383 00:20:54,640 --> 00:20:58,840 Speaker 1: I started asking. And if they said I don't really know, 384 00:20:59,000 --> 00:21:00,720 Speaker 1: then you're not speaking to the right person. You're not 385 00:21:00,760 --> 00:21:03,200 Speaker 1: speaking to the person that said we should have Rachel here. 386 00:21:03,520 --> 00:21:08,280 Speaker 1: And so insisting that you have that briefing with that 387 00:21:08,280 --> 00:21:11,119 Speaker 1: person is really important because otherwis you're going in dark. 388 00:21:12,960 --> 00:21:16,800 Speaker 1: So that's been really key, is really using briefings in 389 00:21:16,840 --> 00:21:19,600 Speaker 1: the right kind of way. The fear in question is 390 00:21:19,640 --> 00:21:23,239 Speaker 1: really interesting because people can say, well, I'll they often say, 391 00:21:23,280 --> 00:21:24,960 Speaker 1: I want you to talk about trust in the digital 392 00:21:25,000 --> 00:21:27,280 Speaker 1: aid whatever that means. If you say, well, how do 393 00:21:27,320 --> 00:21:30,840 Speaker 1: you want people to feel, they're then really thinking about 394 00:21:30,840 --> 00:21:33,320 Speaker 1: the state of the audience. So they'll say some people 395 00:21:33,320 --> 00:21:37,239 Speaker 1: say I want them to for challenged or I want 396 00:21:37,280 --> 00:21:42,760 Speaker 1: them to for inspired. They're two really different speeches, and 397 00:21:42,840 --> 00:21:47,640 Speaker 1: there you get your guidance on tone and content and delivery. 398 00:21:47,760 --> 00:21:52,560 Speaker 1: So that's been really key, is the briefing. I then 399 00:21:52,680 --> 00:21:57,840 Speaker 1: put something together so I kind of have this. It 400 00:21:57,920 --> 00:22:00,680 Speaker 1: might be worth describing actually because people say, well, how 401 00:22:00,720 --> 00:22:04,720 Speaker 1: do you put speeches together? And I found so I 402 00:22:04,800 --> 00:22:10,040 Speaker 1: write blocks around particular examples and stories. So Facebook's a 403 00:22:10,080 --> 00:22:11,399 Speaker 1: really good example. A lot of you want me to 404 00:22:11,440 --> 00:22:14,200 Speaker 1: talk about Facebook because of Cambridge Analytica, And so I'll 405 00:22:14,240 --> 00:22:17,440 Speaker 1: have speaking points in a Google doc and then every 406 00:22:17,480 --> 00:22:20,640 Speaker 1: time I think of a new point or it changes 407 00:22:20,640 --> 00:22:23,600 Speaker 1: on stage, I edit that in the Google doc. And 408 00:22:23,640 --> 00:22:28,280 Speaker 1: then I have a slide library that is like if 409 00:22:28,280 --> 00:22:31,159 Speaker 1: you saw the organization, it's so anal like it's just 410 00:22:32,200 --> 00:22:34,480 Speaker 1: it's quite I actually it's quite beautiful in terms of 411 00:22:34,480 --> 00:22:37,320 Speaker 1: information design, not to I didn't do it so, but 412 00:22:37,880 --> 00:22:40,400 Speaker 1: it makes it so easy that I can look at it. 413 00:22:40,440 --> 00:22:42,600 Speaker 1: And I think it comes from writing, is that you're 414 00:22:42,640 --> 00:22:47,320 Speaker 1: literally oh, I'll pull that story and I'll pull that story. 415 00:22:47,440 --> 00:22:50,359 Speaker 2: So how's that organized? That slide file? Can can you 416 00:22:50,760 --> 00:22:51,760 Speaker 2: kind a future of that? 417 00:22:52,240 --> 00:22:57,600 Speaker 1: So it's on drop box practically and like the highest folder. 418 00:22:57,800 --> 00:23:00,480 Speaker 1: So my previous work was all called sharing, so that's 419 00:23:00,480 --> 00:23:02,200 Speaker 1: all in one thing. And then the new work's called trust. 420 00:23:02,240 --> 00:23:04,439 Speaker 1: And then you go in and it will have like 421 00:23:05,000 --> 00:23:08,159 Speaker 1: core concepts. And then you go into core concepts and 422 00:23:08,200 --> 00:23:11,199 Speaker 1: it will have like core things that I've written about 423 00:23:12,320 --> 00:23:16,080 Speaker 1: that sort of my ideas, so like trust leaps being 424 00:23:16,119 --> 00:23:20,960 Speaker 1: one of them, or risk propensity or whatever it is, 425 00:23:21,520 --> 00:23:24,600 Speaker 1: trust evolution. And then you go into that folder and 426 00:23:24,600 --> 00:23:27,240 Speaker 1: it's got all the slides and stories attached to that concept. 427 00:23:28,160 --> 00:23:32,199 Speaker 1: Another folder will have other people's quotes, so these are 428 00:23:32,320 --> 00:23:34,880 Speaker 1: other people that I find interesting that have spoken about 429 00:23:34,920 --> 00:23:39,640 Speaker 1: vulnerability or trust or risk. Another folder will be all 430 00:23:39,760 --> 00:23:43,600 Speaker 1: organized by company. Example, so Uber will have a folder, 431 00:23:43,640 --> 00:23:46,040 Speaker 1: Facebook will half a folder, Evan B will have a folder. 432 00:23:46,200 --> 00:23:51,560 Speaker 1: This is what I mean. And then so and things 433 00:23:51,600 --> 00:23:54,040 Speaker 1: can live in two places, but only two places. That's 434 00:23:54,080 --> 00:23:58,000 Speaker 1: another rule because otherwise you end up with too much duplication. 435 00:23:59,680 --> 00:24:01,879 Speaker 1: And then I have a really important fodder, which is 436 00:24:01,960 --> 00:24:08,920 Speaker 1: evolving ideas. And these are things that really, as I'm saying, 437 00:24:08,960 --> 00:24:13,800 Speaker 1: this material being tested. So this is these ideas I'm 438 00:24:13,840 --> 00:24:16,080 Speaker 1: testing on the stage that I know are not right 439 00:24:17,119 --> 00:24:20,480 Speaker 1: material ready to be designed and this is when I've 440 00:24:20,960 --> 00:24:25,200 Speaker 1: I know it's working. So Jerry Seinfeld describes it as fishing. 441 00:24:26,320 --> 00:24:28,959 Speaker 1: So as a comedian, you fish and you feel when 442 00:24:28,960 --> 00:24:31,399 Speaker 1: you've got a bite, and the work that you do 443 00:24:31,440 --> 00:24:34,399 Speaker 1: on stage is turn that bite into actually catching the fish. 444 00:24:35,119 --> 00:24:38,640 Speaker 1: And then for me, because slides and stories are so important, 445 00:24:38,680 --> 00:24:40,280 Speaker 1: I then can get to the stage of I know 446 00:24:40,280 --> 00:24:41,359 Speaker 1: how this is visualized. 447 00:24:42,720 --> 00:24:46,280 Speaker 2: I know all this is great. There's a real. 448 00:24:46,160 --> 00:24:49,439 Speaker 1: Process behind it. So it makes it really easy because 449 00:24:49,920 --> 00:24:52,800 Speaker 1: and I have a rule where I always test something 450 00:24:52,840 --> 00:24:56,160 Speaker 1: new in a speech always, but if you're testing more 451 00:24:56,200 --> 00:25:00,479 Speaker 1: than twenty percent, it's not going to go great. So 452 00:25:00,600 --> 00:25:03,760 Speaker 1: when organizers say I want something completely new, I'm like, 453 00:25:04,080 --> 00:25:07,720 Speaker 1: you don't, like this has taking years, Like it takes 454 00:25:07,720 --> 00:25:10,720 Speaker 1: about ten speeches to get one point, like to know 455 00:25:10,760 --> 00:25:14,600 Speaker 1: how to land it. So this is like one thing 456 00:25:14,600 --> 00:25:16,840 Speaker 1: I say to people when they're giving speeches, like I'm like, 457 00:25:17,480 --> 00:25:19,720 Speaker 1: so you think you're going to stand up there and 458 00:25:19,760 --> 00:25:21,440 Speaker 1: a lot of people just read the speech in their 459 00:25:21,440 --> 00:25:23,160 Speaker 1: head as well, they won't even read it out loud, 460 00:25:23,960 --> 00:25:25,480 Speaker 1: and you think it's going to come out like a 461 00:25:25,520 --> 00:25:29,159 Speaker 1: ted talk, like with all your respect, Like this is 462 00:25:29,240 --> 00:25:32,159 Speaker 1: ten thousand hours of practice, right, it's really getting to 463 00:25:32,200 --> 00:25:35,960 Speaker 1: a place where you can have no notes because the 464 00:25:36,000 --> 00:25:38,359 Speaker 1: story is it's in you. The points are in you. 465 00:25:39,760 --> 00:25:41,200 Speaker 1: So it's a long win a way of they saying, 466 00:25:41,200 --> 00:25:43,360 Speaker 1: so I'll put something together and then I won't think 467 00:25:43,400 --> 00:25:46,760 Speaker 1: about it, and then I'll come back to it, and 468 00:25:46,800 --> 00:25:48,400 Speaker 1: then you have to send it usually in a couple 469 00:25:48,400 --> 00:25:50,720 Speaker 1: of days in advance, which is silly exercise because then 470 00:25:50,960 --> 00:25:53,080 Speaker 1: on the way there you're really refining the points and 471 00:25:53,080 --> 00:25:54,600 Speaker 1: so and then I get there and I'm usually can 472 00:25:54,640 --> 00:25:56,040 Speaker 1: I add a slide or move a slide? 473 00:25:56,119 --> 00:26:01,400 Speaker 2: But yeah, definitely, How do you translate what the organizer 474 00:26:01,440 --> 00:26:04,440 Speaker 2: will say about I want people feeling this way with 475 00:26:05,320 --> 00:26:10,520 Speaker 2: picking out the points and the slides, like in your system, 476 00:26:10,840 --> 00:26:12,440 Speaker 2: have you got emotion tags as well? 477 00:26:14,359 --> 00:26:19,840 Speaker 1: That's a really good question. No, I don't have emotion tags. 478 00:26:19,840 --> 00:26:21,800 Speaker 1: But so last week I was with one of the 479 00:26:21,840 --> 00:26:24,200 Speaker 1: banks that's in the Royal Commission and it was a 480 00:26:24,359 --> 00:26:27,080 Speaker 1: really tough speech because you're talking about trust in a 481 00:26:27,160 --> 00:26:32,080 Speaker 1: company where trust is in crisis. So you look at 482 00:26:32,119 --> 00:26:35,000 Speaker 1: some of the stories and you're like, I can't use 483 00:26:35,040 --> 00:26:40,199 Speaker 1: that because it's funny, or I can't you know, it 484 00:26:40,280 --> 00:26:42,639 Speaker 1: actually takes material off the table. Which it can be 485 00:26:42,760 --> 00:26:48,040 Speaker 1: quite helpful. And the other strange thing you find. I mean, 486 00:26:48,080 --> 00:26:51,160 Speaker 1: it's just like writing music, right. You could open with 487 00:26:51,200 --> 00:26:55,199 Speaker 1: this story and then finish this story, and then in 488 00:26:55,240 --> 00:26:58,560 Speaker 1: another speech you flip those things. So your closes you're opening, 489 00:26:58,560 --> 00:27:03,000 Speaker 1: and they will feel completely different. The bookmarking is key, 490 00:27:03,040 --> 00:27:05,520 Speaker 1: so knowing how you're going to open and knowing how 491 00:27:05,520 --> 00:27:08,520 Speaker 1: you're going to close, and I you know, I've been 492 00:27:08,560 --> 00:27:12,800 Speaker 1: in audiences where people Simer Synik's a great example where 493 00:27:12,800 --> 00:27:16,080 Speaker 1: they're like, I've seen him open like that five times, 494 00:27:16,320 --> 00:27:20,640 Speaker 1: like it's a criticism, and I'm like, because he knows 495 00:27:20,800 --> 00:27:24,000 Speaker 1: exactly where to take the audience from that point. It's 496 00:27:24,040 --> 00:27:27,479 Speaker 1: like he's opening melody and he's grounding himself on the stage, 497 00:27:27,480 --> 00:27:30,240 Speaker 1: and you will always go somewhere quite different because he's 498 00:27:30,320 --> 00:27:32,920 Speaker 1: listening and he's feeding off what's going on in the room. 499 00:27:33,240 --> 00:27:35,960 Speaker 1: So I think the number of opening stories you can 500 00:27:36,000 --> 00:27:40,200 Speaker 1: have is quite limited. But where you go from that, 501 00:27:40,200 --> 00:27:41,400 Speaker 1: that's the black canvas. 502 00:27:41,720 --> 00:27:46,720 Speaker 2: Hmmm, that's really interesting. I want to talk about how 503 00:27:46,760 --> 00:27:51,360 Speaker 2: you prioritize incoming requests. I imagine because of your profile, 504 00:27:51,600 --> 00:27:54,639 Speaker 2: you're probably getting a lot of people asking you for 505 00:27:54,760 --> 00:27:57,560 Speaker 2: things to write. Things to say, things to be part 506 00:27:57,600 --> 00:28:00,280 Speaker 2: of things. How do you decide what to say yes 507 00:28:00,320 --> 00:28:01,639 Speaker 2: too versus what to say no to? 508 00:28:04,000 --> 00:28:08,640 Speaker 1: It's funny. It's one of my goals I've been working 509 00:28:08,640 --> 00:28:14,240 Speaker 1: on this year, not saying no, but finding myself less 510 00:28:14,240 --> 00:28:16,720 Speaker 1: in situations where I'm like, why did I say yes? 511 00:28:19,040 --> 00:28:21,919 Speaker 1: To be honest, when there's an email that can I 512 00:28:21,960 --> 00:28:28,960 Speaker 1: pick your brain or it's really really long. I get 513 00:28:29,000 --> 00:28:33,440 Speaker 1: a lot of requests from students doing masters or dissertations 514 00:28:33,440 --> 00:28:35,840 Speaker 1: that aren't part of the course that I teach that 515 00:28:35,920 --> 00:28:37,600 Speaker 1: you have to say no to, and I always try 516 00:28:37,640 --> 00:28:39,960 Speaker 1: and direct them to a resource. I always try and 517 00:28:40,000 --> 00:28:44,640 Speaker 1: close the loop and be helpful. You also get a sense, 518 00:28:44,680 --> 00:28:48,600 Speaker 1: I'm getting a better sense when someone's quite hard to 519 00:28:48,640 --> 00:28:52,080 Speaker 1: shut down and then being more comfortable that you don't 520 00:28:52,080 --> 00:28:53,840 Speaker 1: have to be the person to reply, so you put 521 00:28:53,880 --> 00:28:59,600 Speaker 1: that on someone on your team. But the thing that 522 00:28:59,640 --> 00:29:04,239 Speaker 1: I've really started to ask myself is what is the 523 00:29:04,240 --> 00:29:07,480 Speaker 1: intentions of this person, or why are they asking me 524 00:29:07,520 --> 00:29:09,080 Speaker 1: to write this piece, why they asked me to do 525 00:29:09,120 --> 00:29:14,800 Speaker 1: this interview, and if there's an alignment, So you really 526 00:29:14,800 --> 00:29:17,720 Speaker 1: believe in what this person's doing and you think it's 527 00:29:17,720 --> 00:29:20,360 Speaker 1: good for your work and you think it's interesting, then 528 00:29:20,400 --> 00:29:24,280 Speaker 1: you consider it does that make sense? So I think 529 00:29:24,320 --> 00:29:27,240 Speaker 1: sometimes you're like, oh, can you get can you write 530 00:29:27,240 --> 00:29:28,120 Speaker 1: a piece for the Guardian? 531 00:29:28,200 --> 00:29:28,440 Speaker 2: Okay? 532 00:29:28,440 --> 00:29:29,960 Speaker 1: And you're like, oh, yeah, you know New York Times 533 00:29:30,120 --> 00:29:33,440 Speaker 1: should totally do that, But then you know they are 534 00:29:33,480 --> 00:29:35,920 Speaker 1: really good. Example is they might be pushing for an 535 00:29:35,960 --> 00:29:39,160 Speaker 1: op ed on Facebook that's completely contrary to your opinion, 536 00:29:39,240 --> 00:29:41,520 Speaker 1: and you get halfway through and you're battling with the 537 00:29:41,640 --> 00:29:44,560 Speaker 1: editor and you're thinking, well, why didn't I ask them 538 00:29:44,560 --> 00:29:46,200 Speaker 1: where they were coming from? Because then you have to 539 00:29:46,200 --> 00:29:54,160 Speaker 1: abandon ship midway through. So being okay, just saying no 540 00:29:54,400 --> 00:29:56,880 Speaker 1: to people that really actually don't value your time because 541 00:29:56,880 --> 00:30:00,960 Speaker 1: they're just saying pick your brain, finding a way to 542 00:30:00,960 --> 00:30:03,680 Speaker 1: help people when they shut them down, and also making 543 00:30:03,720 --> 00:30:06,240 Speaker 1: you know, a clean no. How do you do that? 544 00:30:09,000 --> 00:30:12,440 Speaker 1: So often it's better when it doesn't come from me. 545 00:30:15,160 --> 00:30:17,200 Speaker 1: She's just not available, no reason. 546 00:30:17,800 --> 00:30:21,560 Speaker 2: Mmmmm yeah, So this will be your assistant, don't. 547 00:30:21,440 --> 00:30:24,800 Speaker 1: Yeah, especially with speaking a request, because if you say 548 00:30:25,840 --> 00:30:28,680 Speaker 1: something like even something like I'm really sorry she can't attend. 549 00:30:29,120 --> 00:30:33,520 Speaker 1: What is that why? Or like if we sweeten the deal? 550 00:30:33,720 --> 00:30:34,959 Speaker 2: Was she? You know? 551 00:30:35,000 --> 00:30:36,440 Speaker 1: And then you have to ask yourself. You know, if 552 00:30:36,440 --> 00:30:38,160 Speaker 1: they come back and they said X and then they 553 00:30:38,160 --> 00:30:40,400 Speaker 1: double the amount, you've put yourself in a very tricky 554 00:30:40,440 --> 00:30:44,840 Speaker 1: situation because then you you've said no, and then you're 555 00:30:44,880 --> 00:30:47,280 Speaker 1: showing all money can actually change that, which is not 556 00:30:47,360 --> 00:30:53,120 Speaker 1: good for anyone then really. 557 00:30:53,040 --> 00:30:53,240 Speaker 2: You know. 558 00:30:53,280 --> 00:30:56,640 Speaker 1: The other thing on the calendar is like absolute no 559 00:30:56,800 --> 00:31:01,880 Speaker 1: go days kids, first day of school, like all these things, 560 00:31:01,920 --> 00:31:04,000 Speaker 1: it doesn't matter what it is. It's different for different people. 561 00:31:04,160 --> 00:31:07,840 Speaker 1: No go days are no go days, and sometimes you 562 00:31:07,920 --> 00:31:11,160 Speaker 1: have to invent a nogay day, you like, if someone 563 00:31:11,240 --> 00:31:15,760 Speaker 1: doesn't really, if it's a really tricky no, I'm really sorry. 564 00:31:15,920 --> 00:31:20,000 Speaker 1: But one of the kids is the lead in a play. 565 00:31:21,600 --> 00:31:23,920 Speaker 2: I love it. I love it. And do you have, 566 00:31:24,160 --> 00:31:27,800 Speaker 2: like any parenting hacks that you've learned as a working 567 00:31:27,880 --> 00:31:31,680 Speaker 2: mother that just serve to help things run a lot 568 00:31:31,720 --> 00:31:34,360 Speaker 2: more smoothly at home? You've got you've got two kids 569 00:31:34,400 --> 00:31:35,600 Speaker 2: under five? Is that right? 570 00:31:35,720 --> 00:31:35,880 Speaker 1: One? 571 00:31:35,960 --> 00:31:39,320 Speaker 2: Six? I got year six and four? Do you know? 572 00:31:39,400 --> 00:31:43,720 Speaker 1: The funny thing is, I think the hats get harder 573 00:31:44,080 --> 00:31:48,520 Speaker 1: as they get older because they get smarter. So I 574 00:31:48,520 --> 00:31:51,080 Speaker 1: think when they're under the age of three is distraction 575 00:31:51,280 --> 00:31:53,960 Speaker 1: hacks and they don't have a sense of time so 576 00:31:54,040 --> 00:31:58,080 Speaker 1: you can make it up to them. I've realized even 577 00:31:58,120 --> 00:32:00,640 Speaker 1: now you know six is such a to a wage. 578 00:32:00,640 --> 00:32:03,600 Speaker 1: But they start to develop empathy. They do have an 579 00:32:03,640 --> 00:32:08,760 Speaker 1: awareness of the day of the week. So consistency as 580 00:32:08,880 --> 00:32:11,920 Speaker 1: much as you can is I found is really important. 581 00:32:12,080 --> 00:32:16,959 Speaker 1: So knowing them knowing when I can pick them up 582 00:32:16,960 --> 00:32:19,400 Speaker 1: from school is a big one. So it's on you 583 00:32:19,440 --> 00:32:24,000 Speaker 1: know when Mummy's going to pick you up, the way 584 00:32:24,160 --> 00:32:28,840 Speaker 1: you spend that time, so like five to seven is 585 00:32:28,880 --> 00:32:32,200 Speaker 1: their time. And I always find the wills come off 586 00:32:33,120 --> 00:32:35,360 Speaker 1: if you organize something you think you can squeeze it in, 587 00:32:35,400 --> 00:32:38,720 Speaker 1: because then they're like, I waited for this time. You 588 00:32:38,720 --> 00:32:41,040 Speaker 1: know you're it's not fair to them. You're really cheating. 589 00:32:41,040 --> 00:32:43,280 Speaker 1: So it's an obvious thing, but being present when you're 590 00:32:43,320 --> 00:32:46,960 Speaker 1: really present is quite key. I am. I think the 591 00:32:47,000 --> 00:32:49,360 Speaker 1: one thing I've really got right is I'm very protective 592 00:32:49,400 --> 00:32:55,520 Speaker 1: of my weekends, so I really one percent try not 593 00:32:55,640 --> 00:32:58,200 Speaker 1: to work on the weekends and they know that I'm 594 00:32:58,240 --> 00:33:04,440 Speaker 1: always there. Holidays not always possible. And then getting really 595 00:33:04,480 --> 00:33:09,680 Speaker 1: smart around where you need support and not feeling guilty 596 00:33:09,680 --> 00:33:14,800 Speaker 1: about that is it's so easy to say, it's really 597 00:33:14,840 --> 00:33:17,920 Speaker 1: hard to do and even finding the right kind of 598 00:33:17,960 --> 00:33:20,320 Speaker 1: support and the right person that doesn't support you and 599 00:33:20,320 --> 00:33:24,480 Speaker 1: doesn't judge you. My son is also becoming more and 600 00:33:24,520 --> 00:33:29,600 Speaker 1: more interested in my work, so I find showing him 601 00:33:29,680 --> 00:33:35,360 Speaker 1: things saying this was a this was really exciting, that said, oh, 602 00:33:35,400 --> 00:33:37,240 Speaker 1: I've got to go and do I've got to go 603 00:33:37,280 --> 00:33:39,120 Speaker 1: on a plane and do this thing. So I've got 604 00:33:39,160 --> 00:33:40,920 Speaker 1: to go to Asthma next week is a really good example. 605 00:33:41,000 --> 00:33:43,480 Speaker 1: So I've been talking to him about mountains and what 606 00:33:43,560 --> 00:33:47,120 Speaker 1: he thinks mountains look like in summer, and what an 607 00:33:47,160 --> 00:33:50,040 Speaker 1: ideas festival is, what does he think that is, And 608 00:33:50,600 --> 00:33:53,000 Speaker 1: so he now wants to take photos of the mountains 609 00:33:53,040 --> 00:33:55,680 Speaker 1: to see if it's you can engage them in your 610 00:33:55,880 --> 00:33:58,480 Speaker 1: journey without them being physically there. 611 00:33:59,600 --> 00:34:00,960 Speaker 2: That's that's lovely. 612 00:34:01,040 --> 00:34:01,240 Speaker 1: Yeah. 613 00:34:01,440 --> 00:34:04,320 Speaker 2: I was in Vancouver for work a couple of months ago, 614 00:34:04,400 --> 00:34:07,000 Speaker 2: and in the lead up we're talking about what are 615 00:34:07,000 --> 00:34:10,480 Speaker 2: the animals in Canada? And I bought my daughter, who's 616 00:34:10,480 --> 00:34:13,520 Speaker 2: for this toy moose and I take photos of it, 617 00:34:13,640 --> 00:34:17,320 Speaker 2: like having a drink and on the toilet and just 618 00:34:17,400 --> 00:34:19,800 Speaker 2: kind of building up this story about this moose. And 619 00:34:19,840 --> 00:34:22,200 Speaker 2: then when I got home, it was so much excitement 620 00:34:22,440 --> 00:34:25,120 Speaker 2: and yeah, just sort of something something to kind of 621 00:34:25,120 --> 00:34:27,839 Speaker 2: share about where you were, like, yeah, yeah. 622 00:34:27,840 --> 00:34:33,440 Speaker 1: They don't understand you're tired. That hack does not. So 623 00:34:33,480 --> 00:34:35,360 Speaker 1: I always if I'm really honest with them and I 624 00:34:35,440 --> 00:34:37,600 Speaker 1: say that I'm just really tired, can you give me 625 00:34:37,640 --> 00:34:40,800 Speaker 1: a break or can you just follow the instruction because 626 00:34:41,360 --> 00:34:45,239 Speaker 1: I have nothing left? They're like, I don't care whether 627 00:34:45,280 --> 00:34:45,880 Speaker 1: you're tired. 628 00:34:48,360 --> 00:34:51,080 Speaker 2: So true, so true. I have one question before we 629 00:34:51,120 --> 00:34:54,320 Speaker 2: move into kind of some rapid fire finished questions, thinking 630 00:34:54,320 --> 00:34:58,080 Speaker 2: about how you work. What's something that would surprise people 631 00:34:58,360 --> 00:35:00,839 Speaker 2: about what you do, how you do what you do 632 00:35:00,960 --> 00:35:01,520 Speaker 2: and get it. 633 00:35:01,440 --> 00:35:09,759 Speaker 1: Done, surprised people how visual it is. I think that's 634 00:35:10,239 --> 00:35:14,239 Speaker 1: I don't start in words, I start in pictures and concepts. 635 00:35:14,320 --> 00:35:17,360 Speaker 1: And I think this because I was trained as an artist, 636 00:35:17,440 --> 00:35:18,920 Speaker 1: you know, that's. 637 00:35:19,280 --> 00:35:21,600 Speaker 2: So I studied fine arts. I did. 638 00:35:21,719 --> 00:35:24,120 Speaker 1: I study fine arts, So I will often like so 639 00:35:24,200 --> 00:35:28,640 Speaker 1: at the moment I'm researching the relationship between transparency and trust. 640 00:35:29,360 --> 00:35:32,880 Speaker 1: If you read the academic papers like bored and turned 641 00:35:32,880 --> 00:35:36,560 Speaker 1: off and completely confused within like with autry respect about 642 00:35:36,600 --> 00:35:38,879 Speaker 1: three hours. But if you actually start to look at 643 00:35:38,920 --> 00:35:47,200 Speaker 1: how transparencies represent an architecture and how it's represented in films, 644 00:35:47,239 --> 00:35:49,759 Speaker 1: and design, and you start to create this board and 645 00:35:50,520 --> 00:35:55,040 Speaker 1: ideas start to emerge. So the process is extremely visual, 646 00:35:55,680 --> 00:35:57,880 Speaker 1: even though the output is more word space. 647 00:35:58,880 --> 00:35:59,920 Speaker 2: That's very interesting. 648 00:36:00,239 --> 00:36:01,520 Speaker 1: Hmmm. I love that. 649 00:36:02,520 --> 00:36:05,719 Speaker 2: Okay, let's finish with some rapid fire questions about what 650 00:36:05,800 --> 00:36:07,480 Speaker 2: are the things that you're consuming, because I think that 651 00:36:07,560 --> 00:36:09,600 Speaker 2: something that people struggle with is that there's so much 652 00:36:09,600 --> 00:36:12,319 Speaker 2: information out there, and it's had to know what is 653 00:36:12,360 --> 00:36:15,080 Speaker 2: the best stuff to feed into your brain. So to 654 00:36:15,160 --> 00:36:18,520 Speaker 2: start with podcasts, what's a podcast or two that you're 655 00:36:18,760 --> 00:36:20,319 Speaker 2: really loving at the moment. 656 00:36:21,880 --> 00:36:27,120 Speaker 1: I'm almost empowersed to admit this. I'm listening to where 657 00:36:27,160 --> 00:36:30,600 Speaker 1: should we begin by Esther Parrell. I think it's a 658 00:36:30,719 --> 00:36:34,359 Speaker 1: really I started listening to it for format, not for 659 00:36:34,440 --> 00:36:38,560 Speaker 1: relationship advice, but this idea that you could let listeners 660 00:36:38,560 --> 00:36:42,360 Speaker 1: into a very private window, and that she's kind of 661 00:36:42,400 --> 00:36:46,920 Speaker 1: this pattern. She does pant and recognition, right, so she 662 00:36:47,000 --> 00:36:50,280 Speaker 1: recognizes what's going on between the couples, and she's explaining 663 00:36:50,320 --> 00:36:53,520 Speaker 1: that to you. And then I got like really absorbed 664 00:36:53,520 --> 00:36:56,120 Speaker 1: in it because I don't know if you've listened to it. 665 00:36:56,200 --> 00:36:59,120 Speaker 2: I have. Yeah, I mean, it's restored. 666 00:36:58,680 --> 00:37:03,520 Speaker 1: My faith in the ability of relationships of all kinds 667 00:37:04,640 --> 00:37:10,680 Speaker 1: to rescue and be restored out of all kinds of 668 00:37:10,719 --> 00:37:15,080 Speaker 1: places of pain and anger. And so the power of 669 00:37:15,120 --> 00:37:17,799 Speaker 1: really talking and listening. I think what that to each 670 00:37:17,800 --> 00:37:21,240 Speaker 1: other is what that podcast is about, versus affairs and relationships. 671 00:37:21,280 --> 00:37:26,440 Speaker 1: So I love Guy Rass. I think he's genius at 672 00:37:26,440 --> 00:37:29,640 Speaker 1: what he does on NPR. So how I built this 673 00:37:29,760 --> 00:37:32,720 Speaker 1: is just great. I love those They're great for the bus. 674 00:37:33,360 --> 00:37:38,279 Speaker 1: I was actually listening to Adam Grant's Work Life, Work Life. 675 00:37:38,680 --> 00:37:43,959 Speaker 1: I really enjoyed Revisionist History. Malcolm Gladwell's first season didn't 676 00:37:44,000 --> 00:37:47,600 Speaker 1: quite get into the second season, and now I found 677 00:37:47,680 --> 00:37:51,799 Speaker 1: Actually I'm listening to a mixture of audible books, audiobooks 678 00:37:51,840 --> 00:37:59,080 Speaker 1: and podcasts. So I'm listening to Jordan Peterson's Ten Laws 679 00:37:59,160 --> 00:38:02,600 Speaker 1: or something. It's very and then this is going to 680 00:38:02,680 --> 00:38:04,920 Speaker 1: sound really weird, But I will listen to books that 681 00:38:04,960 --> 00:38:06,520 Speaker 1: I read. 682 00:38:06,800 --> 00:38:07,480 Speaker 2: Why is that? 683 00:38:08,800 --> 00:38:13,080 Speaker 1: So I'm listening to Yva Hari Sapiens, which I must 684 00:38:13,080 --> 00:38:16,120 Speaker 1: have read twelve months ago. It's either because you're like, 685 00:38:16,800 --> 00:38:19,680 Speaker 1: I think I've forgotten something that was quite key. But 686 00:38:19,760 --> 00:38:23,080 Speaker 1: when you listen, you pick up a different thread. So 687 00:38:24,080 --> 00:38:27,719 Speaker 1: for me, the thread that I've picked up, I think 688 00:38:27,760 --> 00:38:30,120 Speaker 1: you hear it at a more macro level then you 689 00:38:30,160 --> 00:38:33,680 Speaker 1: read things. So as I'm listening to it, I've picked 690 00:38:33,760 --> 00:38:36,080 Speaker 1: up this idea that you know, when you create a 691 00:38:36,080 --> 00:38:41,560 Speaker 1: digital tool and society becomes more efficient, then civilization becomes 692 00:38:41,560 --> 00:38:45,040 Speaker 1: smarter about how to use that time. And if you 693 00:38:45,120 --> 00:38:48,360 Speaker 1: look through the history of time, every time we've created 694 00:38:48,400 --> 00:38:51,839 Speaker 1: something that is a device or a tool to make 695 00:38:51,880 --> 00:38:56,000 Speaker 1: things more efficient, man has not filled that time wisely. 696 00:38:56,719 --> 00:38:59,200 Speaker 1: And that's so interesting, right because when everyone's like, oh, 697 00:38:59,200 --> 00:39:03,720 Speaker 1: this addiction to technology, and it's like, what innately human 698 00:39:03,800 --> 00:39:07,000 Speaker 1: beings have. We got this desire to automate make things 699 00:39:07,000 --> 00:39:12,280 Speaker 1: more efficient, but we can't be still and be bored 700 00:39:12,440 --> 00:39:17,359 Speaker 1: and rest. There's this innate quest to feel time. So 701 00:39:17,400 --> 00:39:18,959 Speaker 1: that's what I've got from listening to the book. 702 00:39:19,239 --> 00:39:24,120 Speaker 2: Mmm, I like that. That's really cool. E newsletters. Are 703 00:39:24,160 --> 00:39:26,799 Speaker 2: there any E newsletters that you subscribed to that you 704 00:39:26,840 --> 00:39:28,680 Speaker 2: actually look forward to receiving? 705 00:39:30,160 --> 00:39:34,200 Speaker 1: There's one, what is that lucky one? And you genuinely 706 00:39:34,600 --> 00:39:38,600 Speaker 1: hate them, really do. I don't know why. It's Jesse Hemple, 707 00:39:38,680 --> 00:39:42,120 Speaker 1: she writes for Wired. I think you have to be 708 00:39:42,160 --> 00:39:44,279 Speaker 1: selected to go on her list, so she knows that. 709 00:39:44,320 --> 00:39:46,600 Speaker 1: I think she's only ever writing for about two hundred people, 710 00:39:47,800 --> 00:39:53,960 Speaker 1: and it's not promotional in any way. She literally says, 711 00:39:54,760 --> 00:39:57,200 Speaker 1: here's the five most interesting things I've read this month, 712 00:39:57,640 --> 00:40:02,319 Speaker 1: And she has a raidar across topics and publications that 713 00:40:02,320 --> 00:40:05,560 Speaker 1: are very different from my own. Here's the one thing 714 00:40:05,600 --> 00:40:08,839 Speaker 1: I've written. I think it's like, here's something I heard 715 00:40:08,840 --> 00:40:12,560 Speaker 1: that completely disagreed with. It's she's not asking for feedback. 716 00:40:12,600 --> 00:40:15,120 Speaker 1: It's very much one way, and so I think that 717 00:40:15,640 --> 00:40:19,319 Speaker 1: what the reason why it works is she knows exactly 718 00:40:20,440 --> 00:40:25,160 Speaker 1: the purpose of that newsletter that she reads, really why 719 00:40:25,719 --> 00:40:29,000 Speaker 1: write widely, and that people want that kind of curated information. 720 00:40:29,920 --> 00:40:33,000 Speaker 1: It's not laid out in any way. It's all text based. 721 00:40:33,760 --> 00:40:37,240 Speaker 1: So I find that. Yeah, but generally newsleaders just feel 722 00:40:37,239 --> 00:40:38,120 Speaker 1: self promotional. 723 00:40:39,200 --> 00:40:42,960 Speaker 2: I like the idea of a curated list that it's 724 00:40:43,040 --> 00:40:46,400 Speaker 2: being said to Wow, yeah, that's that's very cool. Do 725 00:40:46,440 --> 00:40:48,719 Speaker 2: you then forward that onto a lot of figure You're. 726 00:40:48,600 --> 00:40:51,800 Speaker 1: Not allowed to? You know, that's one of the things. 727 00:40:52,040 --> 00:40:54,040 Speaker 2: You know you're in the club and you can't let 728 00:40:54,040 --> 00:40:58,240 Speaker 2: anyone else in. That's that's really interesting. Finally, books, what's 729 00:40:58,600 --> 00:41:00,880 Speaker 2: what's a good book? The physical book or a kindle 730 00:41:00,880 --> 00:41:03,879 Speaker 2: book that you've read lately that you got a lot 731 00:41:03,920 --> 00:41:04,279 Speaker 2: out of. 732 00:41:04,719 --> 00:41:05,640 Speaker 1: I don't do a kindle. 733 00:41:06,640 --> 00:41:07,560 Speaker 2: It's always had coffee. 734 00:41:07,920 --> 00:41:11,600 Speaker 1: Well. I have read a lot of proofs because people 735 00:41:11,640 --> 00:41:15,040 Speaker 1: ask for blurves, which it's very a privilege because of 736 00:41:15,120 --> 00:41:16,840 Speaker 1: seeing the book in its world states. So then I 737 00:41:16,840 --> 00:41:22,160 Speaker 1: have to read the PDFs or audio. What have I 738 00:41:22,200 --> 00:41:25,080 Speaker 1: read recently? So I'm reading on my best table at 739 00:41:25,080 --> 00:41:31,600 Speaker 1: the moment. I'm reading New Power, a book by guy 740 00:41:31,680 --> 00:41:36,080 Speaker 1: called Jeremy Hyman's and Henry Timms. It's very closely related 741 00:41:36,120 --> 00:41:38,040 Speaker 1: to my works. So it's about how power is moving 742 00:41:38,040 --> 00:41:41,600 Speaker 1: from institutions to these distributed movements and models, and it's 743 00:41:41,840 --> 00:41:46,520 Speaker 1: really interesting. I just received a copy of Hugh Mackay's 744 00:41:46,960 --> 00:41:53,200 Speaker 1: new book. I'm rereading a book called More Human by 745 00:41:53,239 --> 00:41:57,080 Speaker 1: Steve Hilton, because I'm really interested about size and scale 746 00:41:57,080 --> 00:42:00,359 Speaker 1: and when things lose their humanness and where that there's 747 00:42:00,440 --> 00:42:05,640 Speaker 1: kind of a perfect state around that. I have the 748 00:42:05,760 --> 00:42:11,279 Speaker 1: Jennifer eganbook Manhattan Beach. So the way I read, I 749 00:42:11,280 --> 00:42:16,040 Speaker 1: should explain I read one thing through to completion and 750 00:42:16,080 --> 00:42:20,080 Speaker 1: then I'm dipping into other things. So I'll probably get 751 00:42:20,120 --> 00:42:22,800 Speaker 1: through four or five books a month. 752 00:42:23,000 --> 00:42:23,759 Speaker 2: That's pretty good. 753 00:42:24,400 --> 00:42:27,879 Speaker 1: Wow, that's not and that's and then I'll have work 754 00:42:27,880 --> 00:42:29,120 Speaker 1: reading as well. I have to do. 755 00:42:30,480 --> 00:42:35,239 Speaker 2: That's cool. Well, great recommendations. Well, thank you so much, Rachel. I. 756 00:42:35,360 --> 00:42:37,880 Speaker 2: So I loved learning about how you work. It's awesome. 757 00:42:38,080 --> 00:42:40,960 Speaker 1: Now it makes me say I'm really aly attentive. It's 758 00:42:40,960 --> 00:42:43,680 Speaker 1: more fluent than that. It's just it's the organization of 759 00:42:43,680 --> 00:42:48,160 Speaker 1: information people. I think when you lose work, you then 760 00:42:48,239 --> 00:42:50,600 Speaker 1: have to spend a lot of time recreating it. So 761 00:42:51,480 --> 00:42:55,640 Speaker 1: how you capture even after every speech, I write notes 762 00:42:55,800 --> 00:42:58,719 Speaker 1: on what went wrong and what went right, because you 763 00:42:58,800 --> 00:43:00,319 Speaker 1: think it's going to stay in your mind and it 764 00:43:00,360 --> 00:43:04,400 Speaker 1: won't even a week later. So that's probably my biggest 765 00:43:04,400 --> 00:43:09,560 Speaker 1: tip is how you document what you've learned, what you change, 766 00:43:10,000 --> 00:43:13,080 Speaker 1: and really good organization of information is really key. 767 00:43:13,480 --> 00:43:14,759 Speaker 2: I love it. Well, I'm going to go away and 768 00:43:14,800 --> 00:43:21,279 Speaker 2: reorganize my slide dick. Hey there, that's it for today's episode. 769 00:43:21,680 --> 00:43:24,200 Speaker 2: If you're looking for more tips to improve the way 770 00:43:24,239 --> 00:43:27,680 Speaker 2: you work, I write a short monthly newsletter that contains 771 00:43:27,680 --> 00:43:30,399 Speaker 2: three cool things that I've discovered that helped me work better, 772 00:43:30,760 --> 00:43:34,279 Speaker 2: which range from interesting research findings through the gadgets that 773 00:43:34,320 --> 00:43:37,840 Speaker 2: I'm loving. You can sign up for that at howiwork 774 00:43:38,160 --> 00:43:41,879 Speaker 2: dot cot. That's how I work dot co. And you're 775 00:43:42,160 --> 00:43:44,319 Speaker 2: probably sick of podcast telling you to give them a 776 00:43:44,360 --> 00:43:46,960 Speaker 2: review in iTunes if you like the episode, so I 777 00:43:47,040 --> 00:43:48,960 Speaker 2: promise I won't ask you to do that, but you know, 778 00:43:49,080 --> 00:43:52,000 Speaker 2: if the mood strikes you, then go for it. And 779 00:43:52,320 --> 00:43:54,440 Speaker 2: if you like this episode and you want more, just 780 00:43:54,520 --> 00:43:56,879 Speaker 2: hit the subscribe button. See you next time.