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Speaker 1: It's the Happy Families podcast. It's the podcast for the

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Speaker 1: time poor parent who just wants answers. Now, if you

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Speaker 1: can have three rules around your boys, try not to

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Speaker 1: hurt yourself, try not to hurt anyone else, and try

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Speaker 1: not to damage the world around you.

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Speaker 2: And now here's the stars of our show.

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Speaker 1: My mum and dad.

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Speaker 3: Gooday, this stopped Justin Colson, the author of six books

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Speaker 3: about raising happy families, and here with Kylie, my wife

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Speaker 3: and co hosts Mum to our six Kids Kylie. Every

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Speaker 3: now and again. I mean, I love Wednesdays because we

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Speaker 3: always talk to somebody who's got great wisdom and great

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Speaker 3: things to share with us. But today a really special

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Speaker 3: day talking with somebody that has been talking parenting for

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Speaker 3: so long and does it so well and is genuinely

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Speaker 3: an Australian favorite when it comes to parenting exp but

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Speaker 3: in fact probably worldwide. People know Maggie Dent. A couple

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Speaker 3: of years ago, Maggie wrote book called Mothering Our Boys

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Speaker 3: and you saw it on the bookshelf and you were like,

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Speaker 3: what are you reading that for?

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Speaker 2: Because we don't have any experience in that area.

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Speaker 1: Do we?

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Speaker 3: And I'm like, well, one day we'll have grandkids, and

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Speaker 3: I'm going to have sons in law. I'm anticipating we've

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Speaker 3: got one already. But that led to another book, which

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Speaker 3: I think is just a wonderful, wonderful book for us

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Speaker 3: to talk about from boys to men, helping our teen

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Speaker 3: boys to grow into happy, healthy men. And Maggie joins

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Speaker 3: us right now. Maggie, so good of you to be

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Speaker 3: with us.

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Speaker 1: Hi justin, Hi Kylie, thank you for inviting me up

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Speaker 1: for a little chat.

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Speaker 3: Maggie, your book is inspirational, and as somebody who only

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Speaker 3: has six girls, it's a little bit confusing to me

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Speaker 3: because every now and again I sit down to write

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Speaker 3: stuff about boys, and I know what the research says.

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Speaker 3: But what I loved about your book is, you know

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Speaker 3: what the practice is. You've raised four boys to manhood

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Speaker 3: and now you're looking after grandkids.

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Speaker 1: I am, and also in amongst that fifteen years as

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Speaker 1: a high school teacher, in five or six years of

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Speaker 1: full time counseling troubled kids, and the boys would come

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Speaker 1: to me, which was a little bit unusual. So you're

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Speaker 1: absolutely the lived experience. But also I'm one of those

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Speaker 1: girls who was kind of part boy, so I don't

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Speaker 1: get girls.

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Speaker 4: As well as I get boys.

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Speaker 1: So it's interesting and I think it was a preparation

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Speaker 1: for everything I do today. Even though I really like

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Speaker 1: girls and I have granddaughters, I am fascinated by them.

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Speaker 1: But as you say, it is something that's really been

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Speaker 1: big in my life to help little boys and big

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Speaker 1: boys be okay, because often they're really confused.

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Speaker 3: I love the way you say that because I'm exactly

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Speaker 3: the reverse. I like boys and I'm fascinated by them.

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Speaker 3: But for me having six daughters, it's changed the way

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Speaker 3: that I view girls and women, and I feel so

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Speaker 3: much more confident talking in that sphere, which is why

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Speaker 3: we've got you on. So I wanted to raise something

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Speaker 3: with you, and that is that my impression. The more

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Speaker 3: research that I do, the more I talk with families,

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Speaker 3: my impression is that the world is just not very

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Speaker 3: kind to boys at all, especially well at all ages.

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Speaker 3: But right now I'm thinking of little boys and the way,

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Speaker 3: like the ways preschools and especially big school it just

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Speaker 3: doesn't seem to be nice to them.

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Speaker 2: I was having a conversation with my sister in law

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Speaker 2: the other day, Maggie, and I asked her how things

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Speaker 2: were going with the new school they've just recently moved

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Speaker 2: and she said, oh, look, you know, I think we've

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Speaker 2: just come to understand that the school that we want

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Speaker 2: and that we hope for our children is just not there.

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Speaker 2: And she shared this experience with me. And so they've

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Speaker 2: got two boys at school right now, and Rue is seven,

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Speaker 2: and in his class there is a little boy who

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Speaker 2: is just rambunctuous. He's got so much energy to burn,

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Speaker 2: and his name goes up on the blackboard every day

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Speaker 2: for bad behavior. And when my sister in law was

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Speaker 2: talking to her son about it, she said, well, is

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Speaker 2: he a bad boy? Does he her people? Is he unkind?

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Speaker 2: And he said no, mum, he just can't sit still.

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Speaker 2: And then she said, well what do they do when

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Speaker 2: his name's been on the board all day? He said,

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Speaker 2: they keep him in at lunchtime. And we were just

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Speaker 2: talking about just how unfair this is. This kid who

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Speaker 2: can't you sit still, is actually being punished by the

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Speaker 2: very thing that he needs to get through the school day,

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Speaker 2: and that's to allow his body to move and you know,

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Speaker 2: kind of run and expend that energy. And it just

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Speaker 2: is so disheartening that after everything that we know in

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Speaker 2: all you know, the research that's been done, and over

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Speaker 2: the years that schooling doesn't seem to have improved any

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Speaker 2: bit better from even when I was at school.

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Speaker 4: No, Carleene, you're absolutely right at his heartbreaking.

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Speaker 1: There is this There is still what we call societal

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Speaker 1: norms that actually think there's an inevitability to boys behaving badly,

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Speaker 1: which is so wrong because we disrespect their need for

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Speaker 1: movement and it is much higher and there's lots of

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Speaker 1: reasons why that we can now show. We're also push

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Speaker 1: formalized learning down, so we're expecting little boys to be

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Speaker 1: able to sit longer cross their legs, but apparently their

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Speaker 1: joints side as flexible as girls, so that can cause

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Speaker 1: them pain. They also don't process verbal language as well.

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Speaker 1: They're unable to identify emotions and express them without physicality.

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Speaker 1: So what we do is punish them and shame them.

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Speaker 1: And the whole traffic like system and red names on

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Speaker 1: a board shames boys deeply.

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Speaker 4: So what happens is we make them wrong.

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Speaker 1: We don't make the fact that they're struggling to do something,

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Speaker 1: we don't work with them to help them manage that

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Speaker 1: need for movement.

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Speaker 4: We make them wrong.

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Speaker 1: And what that does is berries a rage that will

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Speaker 1: come up sadly as they get into puberty when the

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Speaker 1: limbic brain grows, so that's why we often have really

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Speaker 1: angry boys.

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Speaker 3: Later after the break, Maggie, I want to talk more

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Speaker 3: about the culture of how we deal with boys and

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Speaker 3: ways that we can all improve our understanding of how

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Speaker 3: they think and feel.

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Speaker 4: It's the Happy Famili's podcat for a happier family.

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Speaker 2: Try a Happy Families membership, because a happy fan family

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Speaker 2: doesn't just happen.

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Speaker 3: Details at Happyfamilies dot com dot au.

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Speaker 2: It's the Happy Families Podcast, the podcast for the time

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Speaker 2: poor parent who just wants answers now, And today we're

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Speaker 2: talking with Maggie Dant, mother to four boys. Maggie, do

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Speaker 2: you see the culture around our boys as being unkind?

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Speaker 4: Oh? Golly, I you know.

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Speaker 1: Every now and then I'll work in the center that's

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Speaker 1: actually been to some of my work, and they've got

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Speaker 1: this different approach so that the boys that Niek can't

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Speaker 1: sit still on the map more than two or three

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Speaker 1: minutes are towards the back and they're okay to jiggle

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Speaker 1: on a chair where they're able to jiggle their foot

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Speaker 1: without getting busted for it, and they're able to concentrate more,

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Speaker 1: so they're able to participate more. And what they desperately

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Speaker 1: need the same as every girl, is a sense that

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Speaker 1: I belong and people care for me. So when we

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Speaker 1: actually have evidence that shows that we speak more harshly

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Speaker 1: to boys than girls, so what's that telling sensitive little boys?

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Speaker 1: And all of them are sensitive. Even though that rambunctis

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Speaker 1: one looks like he's tough, he's not. The whole myth

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Speaker 1: is boys are not tough a natural fat girls are

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Speaker 1: emotionally way tougher. They do have a physicality, So.

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Speaker 4: Thank you for that.

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Speaker 1: But that is one of the reasons that I started

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Speaker 1: jumping up and down, because we have to look at

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Speaker 1: the way that we're starting to raise little boys into

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Speaker 1: a system that doesn't necessarily serve them until a lot later,

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Speaker 1: around eight to nine, they can sit a little bit better.

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Speaker 3: Maggie, I want to pick up on something that you've

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Speaker 3: just highlighted. You talked about the research around the different

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Speaker 3: expectations the way we speak to boys versus girls, and

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Speaker 3: that data from what I've seen from a developmental psychology

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Speaker 3: point of view, that that's from the earliest ages. We're

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Speaker 3: much more likely to google and gaga over a six

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Speaker 3: month old girl than we are a boy. And by

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Speaker 3: the time they're twelve months and eighteen months and twenty

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Speaker 3: four months, all of a sudden, it's like, stop crying,

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Speaker 3: cut that out, stop acting like a girl. Yes, as

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Speaker 3: you would know, I mean you've written about it. The

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Speaker 3: boys at school are much more likely to get in trouble.

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Speaker 3: They're much more likely to be put on attention, They're

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Speaker 3: much more likely to be suspended and expelled. They just

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Speaker 3: get in trouble more than girls. And it's almost like

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Speaker 3: we've feminized our education system. And as the kids get older,

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Speaker 3: we see girls doing better at school, which is wonderful.

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Speaker 3: I mean, it's great. It's great that girls are doing well.

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Speaker 3: I'm not saying that they shouldn't do well, but girls

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Speaker 3: are graduating with higher grades consistently, girls are getting into

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Speaker 3: the better courses.

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Speaker 4: Now.

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Speaker 3: Girls are really really doing well. And it's a wonderful

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Speaker 3: moment for girls to shine. But it shouldn't be at

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Speaker 3: the expensive boys. Can we lift everybody rather than saying, well,

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Speaker 3: we've got to do this for girls, and therefore we've

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Speaker 3: got to put the boys down. What do we do

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Speaker 3: as parents, like if there's a take home message in

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Speaker 3: terms of the way we talk to our boys, the

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Speaker 3: way we educate our boys, the way we raise these

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Speaker 3: little kids. Let's say, up to about the age of

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Speaker 3: ten or twelve, what would you say the fundamentals that

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Speaker 3: parents need to know about boys as opposed to girls.

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Speaker 1: Look, I think the fundamental needs of them is exactly

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Speaker 1: the same, justin so you know, we know that strong

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Speaker 1: attachment and relationship. So really what helps all children thrive.

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Speaker 1: So you've got to work out how you're building that.

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Speaker 1: Even though you have a boy that's more impulsive, that

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Speaker 1: wants to jump off the garage roof and you can't

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Speaker 1: believe you did it because he didn't think about it.

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Speaker 1: We don't make them wrong in those moments. But what

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Speaker 1: we do is I just say, if you can have

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Speaker 1: three rules around your boys that you have either stuck

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Speaker 1: on the fridge, try not to hurt yourself, try not

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Speaker 1: to hurt anyone else, and try not to damage the

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Speaker 1: world around you. So when they do those things, we

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Speaker 1: come back to them. Now you're not wrong. It was

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Speaker 1: the choice you made. And so the emotional coaching is

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Speaker 1: really important from a tender place, but you can't do

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Speaker 1: it in the heat of the moment because I can't

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Speaker 1: hear you. They're very defensive, very early, so you probably

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Speaker 1: leave it twenty four hours, probably bathtime, little chat as

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Speaker 1: you go into bed. Remember when you jumped on your

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Speaker 1: brother from the top bunk and Mommy got a bit upset,

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Speaker 1: and I need you to know why that wasn't a

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Speaker 1: good choice. So it's a slightly different way of doing it.

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Speaker 1: But the thing is, can you be the tender, loving

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Speaker 1: parent following all these moments? Can you love them when

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Speaker 1: they get that message home from school? Can you love

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Speaker 1: them if they've run in to say goodbye to their

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Speaker 1: friend and punch them in their head instead of giving

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Speaker 1: them a high five because they in the moment, they

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Speaker 1: just forgot what they were doing.

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Speaker 4: Can you really see.

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Speaker 1: That the world through their eyes and help them understand

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Speaker 1: that there are other ways of being, that they're not wrong,

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Speaker 1: that sometimes they make choices that aren't really could.

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Speaker 3: I think there's a reason they call you the Queen

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Speaker 3: of common Sense. I love those three rules. Try not

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Speaker 3: to hurt yourself, try not to hurt anyone else. And

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Speaker 3: what was it about the world?

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Speaker 4: What was that they not to damage the world around you?

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Speaker 1: Yeah?

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Speaker 3: Yeah, so good, Maggie.

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Speaker 2: This has just been such an amazing conversation, and that's

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Speaker 2: saying something considering I'm a mum of all girl so

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Speaker 2: this actually really doesn't have a huge impact on me.

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Speaker 2: But I would love it if you would be willing

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Speaker 2: to come back and chat to us again tomorrow.

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Speaker 3: That's kind of breaking the rules. We don't normally do that.

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Speaker 3: You know what, Let's do it, Maggie.

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Speaker 1: You cool with that?

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Speaker 4: Thank you so much, you guys.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, because what I really want to talk about as

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Speaker 3: well is just this national conversation that's going on right

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Speaker 3: now about consent and respect. It's front and center, especially

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Speaker 3: for our boys right now.

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Speaker 4: It's not just schools that need to do talk about consent.

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Speaker 1: It is every level of us, and we must start

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Speaker 1: much earlier, so you can't just expect the health teacher

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Speaker 1: to just drop it in.

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Speaker 3: Well, we really really hope that you've enjoyed today's conversation,

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Speaker 3: looking forward to talking with Maggie Simore tomorrow. The Happy

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Speaker 3: Families podcast is produced by Justin Rouland from Bridge Media.

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Speaker 3: Craig Bruce is our executive producer. Want to make your

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Speaker 3: family happier? We've got so many resources for you. You

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Speaker 3: can find them all on our Facebook page at doctor

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Speaker 3: Justin Colson's Happy Families, or at our website, happyfamilies dot

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Speaker 3: com dot au