1 00:00:00,080 --> 00:00:02,040 Speaker 1: As we've been talking about earlier on the show and 2 00:00:02,120 --> 00:00:04,360 Speaker 1: over the last couple of days, we know that this 3 00:00:04,559 --> 00:00:09,120 Speaker 1: Shares saga continues to dominate headlines and parliament. It has 4 00:00:09,200 --> 00:00:13,240 Speaker 1: prompted the NTIAC Commissioner to release a statement on conflicts 5 00:00:13,280 --> 00:00:17,120 Speaker 1: of interest. Yesterday. The commissioner, Michael Richards joins me on 6 00:00:17,160 --> 00:00:19,360 Speaker 1: the line right now. Good morning to your commissioner. 7 00:00:20,239 --> 00:00:21,960 Speaker 2: Hey Cody, how are you, yeah, really good? 8 00:00:21,960 --> 00:00:24,239 Speaker 1: Thank you so much for your time this morning. Now, 9 00:00:25,320 --> 00:00:27,120 Speaker 1: I know you have said in your statement that you 10 00:00:27,160 --> 00:00:31,760 Speaker 1: are not going to be drawn in on the issues 11 00:00:31,840 --> 00:00:35,839 Speaker 1: that of this Shares scandal, But can I ask is 12 00:00:35,840 --> 00:00:37,479 Speaker 1: it something that has been reported to. 13 00:00:37,440 --> 00:00:40,920 Speaker 2: You, Katie? As I said, I'm not going to be 14 00:00:41,000 --> 00:00:44,000 Speaker 2: drawn on what reported to me and what's not. I 15 00:00:44,080 --> 00:00:47,040 Speaker 2: receive a lot of report about a whole range of 16 00:00:47,080 --> 00:00:50,960 Speaker 2: different things, but I'm not going to start commenting on 17 00:00:51,159 --> 00:00:53,000 Speaker 2: matters that have or haven't been reported to me. 18 00:00:53,360 --> 00:00:56,480 Speaker 1: Now, let's talk, Fray. Look, let's talk about conflicts of 19 00:00:56,520 --> 00:00:59,440 Speaker 1: interest because we hear about it all too often, and 20 00:00:59,480 --> 00:01:01,440 Speaker 1: you know, in the last few days, I'd tell you what, 21 00:01:01,520 --> 00:01:03,840 Speaker 1: I don't know how many times I've heard perceived, real 22 00:01:03,920 --> 00:01:07,080 Speaker 1: and whatever the other word was for conflicts of interest. 23 00:01:07,120 --> 00:01:10,479 Speaker 1: But what is the difference between these things? Well, first off, 24 00:01:10,520 --> 00:01:11,839 Speaker 1: what is a conflict of interest? 25 00:01:12,680 --> 00:01:16,200 Speaker 2: Yeah, so let's break it down to really the essential bits. 26 00:01:16,880 --> 00:01:20,520 Speaker 2: If you just imagine two circles from it. In one circle, 27 00:01:21,160 --> 00:01:23,720 Speaker 2: write down all your personal interests. Now, we all have 28 00:01:23,800 --> 00:01:26,200 Speaker 2: personal interests. We might have we might own a house, 29 00:01:26,240 --> 00:01:29,240 Speaker 2: we might have rental properties, we might have shares, We've 30 00:01:29,280 --> 00:01:31,800 Speaker 2: got family, we've got friends. So we have a whole 31 00:01:31,840 --> 00:01:35,440 Speaker 2: heap of personal interests. And there's absolutely nothing wrong with 32 00:01:35,480 --> 00:01:38,080 Speaker 2: having personal interests. In fact, every one of us is 33 00:01:38,120 --> 00:01:41,480 Speaker 2: going to have different personal interests. In the other circle, 34 00:01:41,959 --> 00:01:44,720 Speaker 2: think about the public duties that you might have if 35 00:01:44,760 --> 00:01:48,000 Speaker 2: you were in government. So you might have public duties 36 00:01:48,120 --> 00:01:51,320 Speaker 2: which involve sitting on panels making decisions, and of course 37 00:01:51,520 --> 00:01:54,480 Speaker 2: those public duties require you to act in the public 38 00:01:54,520 --> 00:01:59,600 Speaker 2: interest and not in your personal interest. On occasion, those 39 00:01:59,680 --> 00:02:03,840 Speaker 2: two circles are going to come together because the public 40 00:02:03,920 --> 00:02:08,240 Speaker 2: duty that you're expected to perform starts to clash with 41 00:02:08,440 --> 00:02:10,840 Speaker 2: some of your private interests. And the best way I 42 00:02:10,840 --> 00:02:12,760 Speaker 2: can explain that is I'll give you a couple of examples. 43 00:02:14,160 --> 00:02:17,440 Speaker 2: Let's say, for example, you work in government and you're 44 00:02:17,480 --> 00:02:19,880 Speaker 2: sitting on a recruitment panel, for example. So you're sitting 45 00:02:19,880 --> 00:02:22,240 Speaker 2: on a panel and the panel is responsible for deciding 46 00:02:22,280 --> 00:02:25,360 Speaker 2: who's going to get a job in government. So you've 47 00:02:25,360 --> 00:02:30,000 Speaker 2: got a public duty to make that decision based on merits. 48 00:02:30,280 --> 00:02:33,320 Speaker 2: Make sure that the decision is unbiased, it's not influenced 49 00:02:33,320 --> 00:02:37,560 Speaker 2: by anything other than a proper considerations. Now let's imagine 50 00:02:37,560 --> 00:02:41,800 Speaker 2: that one of the applicants is your best friend. Now, 51 00:02:42,760 --> 00:02:44,840 Speaker 2: if you think about your personal interests, of course you've 52 00:02:44,880 --> 00:02:47,240 Speaker 2: got a personal interest in maintaining a friendship with your 53 00:02:47,240 --> 00:02:49,639 Speaker 2: best trend, you had a personal interest in looking after 54 00:02:49,680 --> 00:02:51,720 Speaker 2: your mate. That's a pretty obvious thing that I'm sure 55 00:02:51,760 --> 00:02:54,440 Speaker 2: we'd all accept is something that we always want to do. 56 00:02:54,520 --> 00:02:56,960 Speaker 2: We want to look after our friends. Now we can 57 00:02:57,000 --> 00:03:01,280 Speaker 2: see there in that circumstance, those two circles have come together. 58 00:03:01,360 --> 00:03:05,880 Speaker 2: They now overlapping, and that bit that overlaps is what 59 00:03:05,919 --> 00:03:08,800 Speaker 2: we call a conflict of interest. So a conflict of 60 00:03:08,840 --> 00:03:14,560 Speaker 2: interest is where our personal interests collide with or clash 61 00:03:14,880 --> 00:03:19,520 Speaker 2: with our public duties. So give you another example, but 62 00:03:19,560 --> 00:03:21,960 Speaker 2: thinking about it from a different angle, Imagine you're a 63 00:03:21,960 --> 00:03:24,480 Speaker 2: small business owner in Darwin, and i'm sure many of 64 00:03:24,480 --> 00:03:28,720 Speaker 2: your listeners are small business owners. Let's think, for example, 65 00:03:28,760 --> 00:03:31,760 Speaker 2: a circumstance where that small business owner puts in a 66 00:03:31,880 --> 00:03:35,000 Speaker 2: quote to do work for the government or a council 67 00:03:35,400 --> 00:03:39,520 Speaker 2: or some public body. Now, that small business owner would 68 00:03:39,520 --> 00:03:43,080 Speaker 2: expect that the person who's going to decide whether that 69 00:03:43,160 --> 00:03:46,960 Speaker 2: quote's accepted or some other business quotes accepted, is only 70 00:03:47,000 --> 00:03:49,960 Speaker 2: going to rely on questions like value for the northern territory, 71 00:03:50,760 --> 00:03:53,400 Speaker 2: quality of service, delivery, quality of the product. And then 72 00:03:54,120 --> 00:03:57,600 Speaker 2: but what if another small business who put in a 73 00:03:57,720 --> 00:04:03,720 Speaker 2: quote was owned by the decision maker's spouse. Now there 74 00:04:03,800 --> 00:04:08,440 Speaker 2: we can again see that the decision maker has a 75 00:04:08,520 --> 00:04:13,480 Speaker 2: personal interest, clearly a spousal interests, a familiar interest, which 76 00:04:13,520 --> 00:04:17,560 Speaker 2: is conflicting with that public duty. And that's what we 77 00:04:17,600 --> 00:04:18,880 Speaker 2: call a conflict of interest. 78 00:04:19,040 --> 00:04:21,200 Speaker 1: And at that point, I would imagine that's where you 79 00:04:21,279 --> 00:04:22,080 Speaker 1: remove yourself. 80 00:04:22,160 --> 00:04:26,279 Speaker 2: Right, That's right. And the reason I put out the 81 00:04:26,279 --> 00:04:31,320 Speaker 2: statement yesterday is sometimes I think we misunderstand where the 82 00:04:31,360 --> 00:04:35,279 Speaker 2: problem arises. Number one, there's absolutely no issue with having 83 00:04:35,320 --> 00:04:38,240 Speaker 2: private interests. In fact, we should all have private interests. 84 00:04:38,279 --> 00:04:40,839 Speaker 2: It's a part and parcel of who we are. And 85 00:04:40,880 --> 00:04:43,480 Speaker 2: there's actually nothing wrong with having a conflict of interest. 86 00:04:44,480 --> 00:04:47,719 Speaker 2: Having a conflict of interest is inevitable, and I must 87 00:04:47,760 --> 00:04:51,680 Speaker 2: say it's absolutely inevitable in a place like the Northern 88 00:04:51,760 --> 00:04:55,320 Speaker 2: Territory because it's such a small population. So having a 89 00:04:55,360 --> 00:04:59,920 Speaker 2: conflict of interest is not an issue. The issue arises 90 00:05:00,480 --> 00:05:04,280 Speaker 2: when it is not appropriately managed. That is where the 91 00:05:04,360 --> 00:05:08,480 Speaker 2: problem arises, not having the conflict of interest, it's where 92 00:05:08,560 --> 00:05:12,120 Speaker 2: it is not appropriately managed. And the way we decide 93 00:05:12,839 --> 00:05:15,000 Speaker 2: where we are in terms of the conflict of interest, 94 00:05:15,839 --> 00:05:18,200 Speaker 2: we have to ask ourselves two questions. And I remember 95 00:05:18,240 --> 00:05:21,560 Speaker 2: you at the start talked about you've heard actual and perceived, 96 00:05:21,600 --> 00:05:25,440 Speaker 2: And let me just explain that for a minute. When 97 00:05:25,520 --> 00:05:27,800 Speaker 2: we're talk when we're deciding whether or not we have 98 00:05:27,839 --> 00:05:29,680 Speaker 2: a conflict of interest, we've got to think about it 99 00:05:29,720 --> 00:05:32,440 Speaker 2: from two different perspectives. The first is we look at 100 00:05:32,480 --> 00:05:35,159 Speaker 2: it from our own perspective, And I ask myself, do 101 00:05:35,279 --> 00:05:39,960 Speaker 2: I think I can bring an independent, impartial and unbiased 102 00:05:40,040 --> 00:05:44,919 Speaker 2: mind to the decision or activity that I'm expected to perform. 103 00:05:45,320 --> 00:05:49,440 Speaker 2: If I say no, I couldn't possibly bring an impartial, 104 00:05:49,480 --> 00:05:52,240 Speaker 2: objective mind, then I've got an actual conflict of interest. 105 00:05:53,240 --> 00:05:56,599 Speaker 2: I've got a conflict between my personal interests and my 106 00:05:56,680 --> 00:06:01,039 Speaker 2: public duties. But of course, that's not the only perspective 107 00:06:01,080 --> 00:06:03,279 Speaker 2: that I have to think about it. I have to 108 00:06:03,320 --> 00:06:06,760 Speaker 2: think about it from the perspective of an outsider. So 109 00:06:07,040 --> 00:06:12,359 Speaker 2: what would an outsider think about this situation? So I 110 00:06:12,440 --> 00:06:15,200 Speaker 2: have to look and say, well, would a reasonable person 111 00:06:15,920 --> 00:06:19,039 Speaker 2: think that I would be able to make this decision 112 00:06:19,200 --> 00:06:24,719 Speaker 2: or engage in this activity in an unbiased, fair and 113 00:06:24,839 --> 00:06:29,000 Speaker 2: professional manner, or would an outsider think, well, hang on, 114 00:06:29,560 --> 00:06:33,119 Speaker 2: I couldn't possibly do that because my personal interests would 115 00:06:33,200 --> 00:06:38,080 Speaker 2: influence how I might perform my function of my duty. 116 00:06:38,839 --> 00:06:41,520 Speaker 2: And that's what we call a perceived conflict of interest. 117 00:06:41,600 --> 00:06:44,720 Speaker 2: So a perceived conflict of interest is simply looking at 118 00:06:44,720 --> 00:06:48,039 Speaker 2: it from a different perspective, from the perspective of an outsider. 119 00:06:48,640 --> 00:06:51,240 Speaker 2: The reality is that an actual conflict of interest and 120 00:06:51,279 --> 00:06:54,240 Speaker 2: a perceived conflict of interest actually equal the same thing. 121 00:06:54,720 --> 00:06:57,480 Speaker 2: It's just looked at from the perspective of two different people. 122 00:06:58,279 --> 00:07:00,840 Speaker 2: I mean, can I just say one one thing about 123 00:07:00,880 --> 00:07:05,839 Speaker 2: that out about that outsider, It's really important that we 124 00:07:05,920 --> 00:07:08,800 Speaker 2: understand that an outsider, it has to be a reasonable person. 125 00:07:09,160 --> 00:07:11,800 Speaker 2: It has to be a person that's blind to politics, 126 00:07:11,920 --> 00:07:14,400 Speaker 2: to personal opinion, and like it has to be a 127 00:07:14,440 --> 00:07:18,320 Speaker 2: reasonable person who just makes an objective decision based on 128 00:07:18,360 --> 00:07:20,720 Speaker 2: all of the information. And I hear a lot of 129 00:07:20,760 --> 00:07:23,920 Speaker 2: talk about the pub test and alike, and that is 130 00:07:24,520 --> 00:07:28,440 Speaker 2: a perfectly appropriate test to apply in other forums. But 131 00:07:28,480 --> 00:07:31,440 Speaker 2: it's not a test that I apply because I obviously 132 00:07:31,440 --> 00:07:33,480 Speaker 2: have to look at it from a very different angle. Yeah. 133 00:07:33,520 --> 00:07:36,400 Speaker 1: Absolutely, Well, from your perspective, it's a very you know, like, 134 00:07:36,480 --> 00:07:39,600 Speaker 1: it's a very professional and pragmatic approach, I would suspect, 135 00:07:40,400 --> 00:07:43,840 Speaker 1: you know, Yeah, I guess when it comes to politics, 136 00:07:43,840 --> 00:07:45,880 Speaker 1: it gets a bit gets a bit different, you know, 137 00:07:46,040 --> 00:07:51,120 Speaker 1: in terms of the perceived conflicts and the like. You know, 138 00:07:51,360 --> 00:07:53,480 Speaker 1: when we're talking about it and talking about it from 139 00:07:53,560 --> 00:07:54,840 Speaker 1: that pub test perspective. 140 00:07:55,560 --> 00:07:58,280 Speaker 2: Absolutely, and you know, that's a different forum. That's not 141 00:07:58,320 --> 00:08:00,520 Speaker 2: a matter. That's not a forum I would inter into. 142 00:08:01,080 --> 00:08:03,280 Speaker 2: But I guess what's important from my point of view 143 00:08:03,320 --> 00:08:06,120 Speaker 2: is that people actually understand what a conflict is, and 144 00:08:06,160 --> 00:08:09,880 Speaker 2: it's that overlap, It's that clash between a personal interest 145 00:08:09,880 --> 00:08:13,040 Speaker 2: that you have and the professional duty that you're expected 146 00:08:13,040 --> 00:08:15,480 Speaker 2: to perform. And we all know that every person in 147 00:08:15,520 --> 00:08:18,000 Speaker 2: the public sector or in local counts and the light 148 00:08:18,520 --> 00:08:22,360 Speaker 2: must always perform their duties to advance the public interest. 149 00:08:23,040 --> 00:08:26,560 Speaker 2: Rather than their personal interests. And that's what I look 150 00:08:26,640 --> 00:08:30,080 Speaker 2: for whenever an allegation of a failure to manage a 151 00:08:30,080 --> 00:08:32,560 Speaker 2: conflict of interests, I always look at, well, what was 152 00:08:32,559 --> 00:08:36,440 Speaker 2: the personal interest, what was the public duty? Was there 153 00:08:36,440 --> 00:08:39,400 Speaker 2: in fact a clash or a potential clash, and if so, 154 00:08:39,800 --> 00:08:42,600 Speaker 2: what was done to manage it? And that is the 155 00:08:42,640 --> 00:08:46,000 Speaker 2: important thing. So how was that conflict managed? 156 00:08:46,360 --> 00:08:49,679 Speaker 1: They are very important points to make, I think, Commissioner, 157 00:08:49,880 --> 00:08:52,040 Speaker 1: can I ask you and look, I know you're not 158 00:08:52,080 --> 00:08:54,040 Speaker 1: going to go into any kind of detail about it, 159 00:08:54,080 --> 00:08:57,160 Speaker 1: but this must be something that's raised really quite often 160 00:08:57,240 --> 00:08:59,959 Speaker 1: in the Northern Territory all the time. 161 00:09:01,120 --> 00:09:05,920 Speaker 2: The conflicts of interest has been something that I've been 162 00:09:05,960 --> 00:09:08,319 Speaker 2: quite public about, and it's probably been the thing I've 163 00:09:08,320 --> 00:09:13,920 Speaker 2: been most public about since I started. And whilst I 164 00:09:13,920 --> 00:09:16,560 Speaker 2: won't comment on why these matters have been raised, the 165 00:09:16,600 --> 00:09:18,200 Speaker 2: fact that they have been raised and the fact that 166 00:09:18,240 --> 00:09:21,360 Speaker 2: there is now a discussion about conflict of interest is 167 00:09:21,440 --> 00:09:24,200 Speaker 2: I think a good thing. I think it's important that 168 00:09:24,240 --> 00:09:27,800 Speaker 2: we sharpen people's focus on what is a conflict of 169 00:09:27,840 --> 00:09:30,080 Speaker 2: interest and how do we probably manage conflicts of interest 170 00:09:30,640 --> 00:09:33,320 Speaker 2: because they are a very real issue in the Northern territory. 171 00:09:34,040 --> 00:09:38,320 Speaker 2: But having said that, the reality is we can't paralyze government, 172 00:09:38,360 --> 00:09:41,000 Speaker 2: we can't paralyze counselors and the life. So we have 173 00:09:41,040 --> 00:09:44,160 Speaker 2: to find reasonable ways of managing those conflicts. And as 174 00:09:44,200 --> 00:09:48,000 Speaker 2: you said at the start, the most obvious and appropriate 175 00:09:48,080 --> 00:09:51,400 Speaker 2: way of managing a conflict of interest is to just 176 00:09:51,480 --> 00:09:55,640 Speaker 2: take no part in the decision, in the deliberation, in 177 00:09:55,679 --> 00:09:59,120 Speaker 2: the activity, in the duty. And my advice to people 178 00:09:59,120 --> 00:10:02,440 Speaker 2: has always been, if in doubt, get out. So if 179 00:10:02,440 --> 00:10:05,240 Speaker 2: you think there's a conflict, if you're just not sure, 180 00:10:05,480 --> 00:10:08,319 Speaker 2: the best thing to do is remove yourself from that process. 181 00:10:09,280 --> 00:10:12,840 Speaker 2: That way, you're effectively managing that conflict, and there will 182 00:10:12,880 --> 00:10:15,280 Speaker 2: certainly be no criticism for me if that's the approach 183 00:10:15,320 --> 00:10:16,640 Speaker 2: that's taken well. 184 00:10:16,720 --> 00:10:20,560 Speaker 1: Northern Territory KAC Commissioner Michael Richards, I appreciate you having 185 00:10:20,600 --> 00:10:22,840 Speaker 1: a chat with us this morning. I appreciate you running 186 00:10:22,840 --> 00:10:26,320 Speaker 1: through that No DONALDA, thank you, thanks so much for 187 00:10:26,320 --> 00:10:26,720 Speaker 1: your time.