1 00:00:00,200 --> 00:00:02,759 Speaker 1: Now, there has been so much discussion, you'd have to say, 2 00:00:02,880 --> 00:00:05,880 Speaker 1: over the last forty eight hours about the government's decision 3 00:00:05,960 --> 00:00:10,040 Speaker 1: to mandate the vaccine, which industries exactly does it include, 4 00:00:10,160 --> 00:00:13,960 Speaker 1: How are those industries going to be impacted and what 5 00:00:14,000 --> 00:00:16,640 Speaker 1: it means really for a lot of our businesses around 6 00:00:16,640 --> 00:00:18,959 Speaker 1: the Northern Territory. Now joining me on the line to 7 00:00:18,960 --> 00:00:22,440 Speaker 1: talk about this from an industry perspective. Master Builders Northern 8 00:00:22,480 --> 00:00:26,279 Speaker 1: Territory Chief Executive Dave Malone. Good morning to you, Dave. 9 00:00:28,560 --> 00:00:30,680 Speaker 1: Let's try that again see if we can get this going. 10 00:00:30,760 --> 00:00:31,840 Speaker 1: Good morning to you, Dave. 11 00:00:33,240 --> 00:00:34,360 Speaker 2: Good morning Katie. How are you? 12 00:00:34,479 --> 00:00:38,440 Speaker 1: Yeah, very well, I've got you now, Sorry operator era there, Dave. Now, 13 00:00:38,880 --> 00:00:41,640 Speaker 1: obviously the Chief Minister, Michael Gunna made this announcement. He 14 00:00:41,720 --> 00:00:45,120 Speaker 1: confirmed that this mandate's going to cover all public facing roles, 15 00:00:45,159 --> 00:00:48,800 Speaker 1: including those likely to come into contact with a vulnerable person, 16 00:00:48,920 --> 00:00:53,000 Speaker 1: so essential infrastructure, food or essential goods, security or supply 17 00:00:53,200 --> 00:00:56,440 Speaker 1: or logistics in the Northern Territory. But it's sort of 18 00:00:56,480 --> 00:00:58,640 Speaker 1: the more we talk about it, the more it seems 19 00:00:58,680 --> 00:01:03,120 Speaker 1: that most industry are indeed going to be impacted. How 20 00:01:03,280 --> 00:01:06,600 Speaker 1: is the building and construction industry feeling at this point. 21 00:01:08,200 --> 00:01:10,960 Speaker 2: Katie, Well, we all know that COVID is coming, and 22 00:01:11,040 --> 00:01:14,080 Speaker 2: we're all looking for some additional guidance from the government 23 00:01:14,120 --> 00:01:17,840 Speaker 2: about what the roadmap reopening would look like. So, you know, 24 00:01:17,880 --> 00:01:20,200 Speaker 2: this week, I think we were pleased to see that 25 00:01:20,240 --> 00:01:24,240 Speaker 2: the government was stepping forward and starting to set out 26 00:01:24,440 --> 00:01:27,640 Speaker 2: what the new arrangements might be. But I think everyone 27 00:01:27,680 --> 00:01:30,120 Speaker 2: was pretty surprised when they found out that business would 28 00:01:30,160 --> 00:01:33,560 Speaker 2: be the gatekeeper and that they would be the ones 29 00:01:33,560 --> 00:01:37,000 Speaker 2: that would be enforcing mandatory vaccinations on their workforce. 30 00:01:37,319 --> 00:01:39,000 Speaker 1: Yeah. I've got to say that's one of the things 31 00:01:39,000 --> 00:01:41,240 Speaker 1: that peaked my interest when I was listening to that 32 00:01:41,319 --> 00:01:44,480 Speaker 1: press conference as it was happening live, and I thought, oh, 33 00:01:44,560 --> 00:01:47,880 Speaker 1: that's really interesting because I had assumed that the government 34 00:01:47,920 --> 00:01:51,000 Speaker 1: would actually sort of list the industries that would indeed 35 00:01:51,040 --> 00:01:54,640 Speaker 1: be impacted and sort of go into a bit more 36 00:01:54,680 --> 00:01:58,360 Speaker 1: detail about, you know, the potential businesses that were going 37 00:01:58,400 --> 00:02:01,280 Speaker 1: to be impacted. The fact that it's now become the 38 00:02:01,320 --> 00:02:05,880 Speaker 1: responsibility of business operators, I mean, it must be weighing 39 00:02:05,920 --> 00:02:08,080 Speaker 1: heavily on a lot of those business people. 40 00:02:09,400 --> 00:02:12,080 Speaker 2: Well, they're certainly searching around for questions and you know, 41 00:02:12,320 --> 00:02:15,399 Speaker 2: just like all other industry groups, our phones have rung 42 00:02:15,440 --> 00:02:18,560 Speaker 2: hotness people try to work out what this all means. 43 00:02:18,639 --> 00:02:20,680 Speaker 2: I suppose the greatest concern that we have is it 44 00:02:20,720 --> 00:02:25,520 Speaker 2: pits employees against employees and employers against their people as well. 45 00:02:25,520 --> 00:02:29,160 Speaker 2: There's really strong feelings around this. Government's been very clever. 46 00:02:29,520 --> 00:02:32,040 Speaker 2: It's made the announcement that we have to move in 47 00:02:32,080 --> 00:02:35,480 Speaker 2: this particular direction and then left business to pick up 48 00:02:35,520 --> 00:02:36,440 Speaker 2: the pieces around it. 49 00:02:37,200 --> 00:02:39,840 Speaker 1: And so, Dave, what are some of those businesses that 50 00:02:39,840 --> 00:02:42,320 Speaker 1: are getting in contact with you saying what are their 51 00:02:42,360 --> 00:02:43,480 Speaker 1: major concerns here? 52 00:02:45,400 --> 00:02:47,440 Speaker 2: Well, I think that've come to grips of the fact 53 00:02:47,440 --> 00:02:50,320 Speaker 2: that even though there's quite a lengthy description of who's 54 00:02:51,440 --> 00:02:55,320 Speaker 2: supposed to be covered by this particular instruction, the truth 55 00:02:55,320 --> 00:02:57,680 Speaker 2: of the matter is that almost everybody is. So it 56 00:02:57,680 --> 00:03:00,320 Speaker 2: doesn't matter what role you have, at some point into 57 00:03:00,360 --> 00:03:05,160 Speaker 2: somebody who is considered to be vulnerable or you forward 58 00:03:05,160 --> 00:03:07,800 Speaker 2: face in some shape or form. So they're going to 59 00:03:07,800 --> 00:03:10,959 Speaker 2: need to get their workforce vaccinated by the first dos, 60 00:03:11,000 --> 00:03:14,079 Speaker 2: as we know, by the middle of November, and two 61 00:03:14,120 --> 00:03:17,919 Speaker 2: doses by just before Christmas. And there are plenty of 62 00:03:17,960 --> 00:03:22,000 Speaker 2: employees who've already said we're resigning, we're not doing this, 63 00:03:22,280 --> 00:03:25,240 Speaker 2: and so in the middle of this run up to Christmas, 64 00:03:25,280 --> 00:03:28,680 Speaker 2: we have all this turmoil inside businesses. We just don't 65 00:03:28,680 --> 00:03:31,480 Speaker 2: think it had to be done this way. It's very 66 00:03:31,560 --> 00:03:34,520 Speaker 2: much come like a sermon from the mount where we 67 00:03:34,639 --> 00:03:38,760 Speaker 2: just get told what the circumstances might be, where we 68 00:03:38,800 --> 00:03:41,240 Speaker 2: could have worked together to find solutions to this. 69 00:03:41,760 --> 00:03:44,480 Speaker 1: Dave, what is going to happen if you do have 70 00:03:44,800 --> 00:03:48,640 Speaker 1: a number of people resign from the construction industry as 71 00:03:48,640 --> 00:03:52,800 Speaker 1: a result of this vaccine mandate, Well, the last. 72 00:03:52,560 --> 00:03:55,400 Speaker 2: Thing you need is the work is to resign. I mean, 73 00:03:55,720 --> 00:03:58,440 Speaker 2: I think we've talked previously about the challenges of workforce 74 00:03:58,480 --> 00:04:02,000 Speaker 2: in the NT. There's a no man's land and this 75 00:04:02,080 --> 00:04:04,800 Speaker 2: as well, where people go, I'm not resigning, but I'm 76 00:04:04,800 --> 00:04:07,520 Speaker 2: not getting a vaccination either. I'm going to sit at 77 00:04:07,520 --> 00:04:11,520 Speaker 2: home until you resolve what the arrangements are for me 78 00:04:11,640 --> 00:04:14,680 Speaker 2: in the workplace. So it's not as simple as either 79 00:04:14,720 --> 00:04:17,200 Speaker 2: you're there or you're not. There's a really big gray 80 00:04:17,320 --> 00:04:19,920 Speaker 2: zone as well, and we should have been working on 81 00:04:20,000 --> 00:04:23,960 Speaker 2: these issues long before that announcement came out this week. 82 00:04:24,080 --> 00:04:26,840 Speaker 1: And what is going to happen for those you know, 83 00:04:26,920 --> 00:04:30,000 Speaker 1: for those business owners and operators that have that no 84 00:04:30,160 --> 00:04:33,200 Speaker 1: man's land that have that gray zone. If they then 85 00:04:33,279 --> 00:04:36,279 Speaker 1: do have to lay somebody off because they refuse to 86 00:04:36,279 --> 00:04:40,640 Speaker 1: get vaccinated, are they concerned about the potential legal ramifications. 87 00:04:41,760 --> 00:04:44,960 Speaker 2: Absolutely. It's not as straightforward as some people think. The 88 00:04:44,960 --> 00:04:48,160 Speaker 2: Fair Work Act puts a lot of obligations on employers 89 00:04:48,160 --> 00:04:51,000 Speaker 2: to try and negotiate with their employees to try and 90 00:04:51,040 --> 00:04:54,120 Speaker 2: find them additional work, and everything is a case by 91 00:04:54,200 --> 00:04:58,239 Speaker 2: case basis. I wrote about this in the paper earlier 92 00:04:58,279 --> 00:05:02,520 Speaker 2: this week. But it's not just a There isn't straightforward 93 00:05:02,920 --> 00:05:06,160 Speaker 2: steps that you can take. Everything is case specific and 94 00:05:06,720 --> 00:05:10,640 Speaker 2: we could have worked on this stuff beforehand. Instead we 95 00:05:10,800 --> 00:05:13,839 Speaker 2: just get an announcement, a press conference that says this 96 00:05:13,960 --> 00:05:17,360 Speaker 2: is the way it will be, and ten thousand businesses 97 00:05:17,400 --> 00:05:19,960 Speaker 2: across the Northern Territory have to scramble to work out 98 00:05:19,960 --> 00:05:22,120 Speaker 2: how to do it. It's not the way we should be 99 00:05:22,160 --> 00:05:24,280 Speaker 2: working this far into a crisis. Dave. 100 00:05:24,640 --> 00:05:30,480 Speaker 1: It sounds as though industry Master Builders included quite upset 101 00:05:30,520 --> 00:05:33,080 Speaker 1: that the government actually hasn't tried to work with them 102 00:05:33,160 --> 00:05:35,000 Speaker 1: before making this announcement. 103 00:05:37,040 --> 00:05:40,120 Speaker 2: I think we're frustrated that we know that we've got 104 00:05:40,200 --> 00:05:42,240 Speaker 2: to do the things we've got to do to reopen 105 00:05:42,279 --> 00:05:45,760 Speaker 2: our community. And we know that vaccination is the best 106 00:05:45,800 --> 00:05:48,279 Speaker 2: way of protecting people, and we know we've got to 107 00:05:48,279 --> 00:05:51,480 Speaker 2: find a way through to a point where things are 108 00:05:51,520 --> 00:05:54,200 Speaker 2: as normal as possible. So we're not critical of the 109 00:05:54,240 --> 00:05:57,000 Speaker 2: government for trying to find a way forward. What we're 110 00:05:57,040 --> 00:06:00,200 Speaker 2: critical of is that with eighteen months into a pandem, 111 00:06:00,560 --> 00:06:03,320 Speaker 2: the way that we still get all our information is 112 00:06:03,360 --> 00:06:07,799 Speaker 2: a political press conference where the new decisions are handed 113 00:06:07,839 --> 00:06:11,200 Speaker 2: down and everybody across the territory pedal is really hard. 114 00:06:11,600 --> 00:06:14,359 Speaker 2: Surely we can get together and work through this stuff, 115 00:06:14,839 --> 00:06:18,360 Speaker 2: identify the loopholes, identify the gaps, and get the best 116 00:06:18,360 --> 00:06:19,920 Speaker 2: solution for territoriums. 117 00:06:20,160 --> 00:06:22,080 Speaker 1: Why do you reckon they're doing it that way? Why 118 00:06:22,120 --> 00:06:25,080 Speaker 1: do you think there isn't that consultation and that discussion 119 00:06:25,120 --> 00:06:26,400 Speaker 1: with business beforehand? 120 00:06:28,279 --> 00:06:30,280 Speaker 2: To be honest, I don't know. I really don't know. 121 00:06:30,640 --> 00:06:32,960 Speaker 2: It's a question you'd have to ask the Chief Minister 122 00:06:33,080 --> 00:06:36,320 Speaker 2: and the cho But there's you know, I know in 123 00:06:36,400 --> 00:06:38,720 Speaker 2: talking to other industry groups, and I'm sure you've spoken 124 00:06:38,760 --> 00:06:42,159 Speaker 2: to them as well, they want to find a way 125 00:06:42,200 --> 00:06:45,440 Speaker 2: through this. This situation that we're in right now is 126 00:06:45,480 --> 00:06:48,600 Speaker 2: a long way short of being perfect, So we need 127 00:06:48,640 --> 00:06:50,680 Speaker 2: to find a way to get as normal as possible, 128 00:06:50,839 --> 00:06:53,320 Speaker 2: and I think we've all got a shoulder some of 129 00:06:53,320 --> 00:06:55,800 Speaker 2: the responsibility for that, don't get me wrong, but we 130 00:06:55,839 --> 00:06:57,640 Speaker 2: can do it better than what we're doing right now. 131 00:06:57,839 --> 00:07:00,520 Speaker 1: Dave, just in closing, I mean, what is your biggest 132 00:07:00,560 --> 00:07:05,120 Speaker 1: concern right now for your members of the Master Builders 133 00:07:05,360 --> 00:07:08,320 Speaker 1: who have obviously found out forty eight hours ago that 134 00:07:08,360 --> 00:07:12,280 Speaker 1: there is this vaccine mandate in place, and they're worried. 135 00:07:12,320 --> 00:07:15,760 Speaker 1: I'm sure about whether you know they've got employees who 136 00:07:15,840 --> 00:07:18,280 Speaker 1: they're going to lose. I mean, what's your biggest concern 137 00:07:18,400 --> 00:07:19,560 Speaker 1: right now for your members? 138 00:07:22,120 --> 00:07:25,960 Speaker 2: Without a doubt, it is about members being a situation 139 00:07:26,080 --> 00:07:28,760 Speaker 2: where they're pitted against their own employees, where they have 140 00:07:28,840 --> 00:07:32,280 Speaker 2: to go to individuals and say, firstly, are you vaccinated. Secondly, 141 00:07:32,560 --> 00:07:34,960 Speaker 2: if you're not vaccinated, you can't work for us, because 142 00:07:35,000 --> 00:07:38,160 Speaker 2: we do x YOZ and these people are small businesses. 143 00:07:38,200 --> 00:07:41,960 Speaker 2: They're not they're not employing ten or twenty thousand people. 144 00:07:41,960 --> 00:07:45,560 Speaker 2: They know every single person personally, they know their families, 145 00:07:45,960 --> 00:07:50,160 Speaker 2: and we've been tuned in the gatekeepers when we're supposed 146 00:07:50,200 --> 00:07:53,320 Speaker 2: to have the best of employee relations, not the opposite. 147 00:07:53,560 --> 00:07:56,600 Speaker 1: Well, Dave Malone, the head of Master builders here in 148 00:07:56,600 --> 00:07:59,200 Speaker 1: the Northern Territory. I always appreciate your time. I know 149 00:07:59,240 --> 00:08:01,520 Speaker 1: you've got a very busy morning ahead. Thank you very 150 00:08:01,600 --> 00:08:03,280 Speaker 1: much for taking the time to have a chat with me. 151 00:08:04,520 --> 00:08:06,320 Speaker 2: Thanks for the time, Katie really appreciate it. 152 00:08:06,320 --> 00:08:06,800 Speaker 1: Thank you.