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Speaker 1: A few months ago, sweat co founder and fitzbos star

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Speaker 1: Kayla It's Cenis invited me on her podcast Sweat Daily

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Speaker 1: to talk all about healthy habits, and Kayla has kindly

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Speaker 1: given me the interview to share with you guys. In

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Speaker 1: this chat, we discuss how to hack your health habits

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Speaker 1: through breaking down barriers, habit stacking, and a technique called

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Speaker 1: temptation bundling, and we deep dive into helping Kayla tame

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Speaker 1: her mobile phone habit. So if you're like Kayla and

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Speaker 1: you're using your mobile phone a bit too much, this

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Speaker 1: episode will help. So let's get into today's crossover episode

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Speaker 1: of Sweat Daily with Kayler, It's Nus and me in

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Speaker 1: the guest chair. Here the world clearly with story mass

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Speaker 1: fitness schuru, Kayla It's Cenis.

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Speaker 2: Hi, I'm calor It Senas and this is Sweat Daily.

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Speaker 2: As always on Wednesdays, we deep dive with an expert

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Speaker 2: related to our theme of the week, aiming to get

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Speaker 2: the answers to all of our burning questions. Now this

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Speaker 2: week we are digging into habit building, how to break

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Speaker 2: bad ones, and how to get better at building healthier ones.

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Speaker 2: Now I am joined today by organizational psychologists, author podcaster

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Speaker 2: The Amazing Doctor Amasa Fimber.

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Speaker 3: This podcast represents the opinions of the hosting guests to

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Speaker 3: the podcast only and should not be taken as medical advice.

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Speaker 3: The content is for informational purposes only, and because every

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Speaker 3: person is different, you should consult your health care provider

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Speaker 3: for any medical questions or concerns. While we make every

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Speaker 3: effort to ensure that the information provided is accurate, no

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Speaker 3: guarantee is given regarding the accuracy of any statements or

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Speaker 3: opinions made on the podcast.

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Speaker 2: Amantha, thank you so much for joining us today. I

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Speaker 2: am so excited. First I need to ask you you

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Speaker 2: are an organizational psychologist. Please tell me what that means.

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Speaker 1: What organizational psychology is all about is helping people thrive

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Speaker 1: at work and be at their best, feel their best,

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Speaker 1: and do their best work. That's how I see the field,

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Speaker 1: and a lot of that involves habit change. So people

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Speaker 1: will come to us if say their teams are feeling

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Speaker 1: burnt out and exhausted and overloaded and don't know how

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Speaker 1: to prioritize. So we might be helping a team who

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Speaker 1: are just feeling really stuck with ideas and opportunities and

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Speaker 1: we help them think bigger and better.

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Speaker 2: And create good habits.

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Speaker 1: Exactly great. I love that so much.

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Speaker 2: I have a bad habit and I really want to

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Speaker 2: talk to you about it because I feel like everyone

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Speaker 2: listening has the same bad habit and that is on

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Speaker 2: my phone.

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Speaker 1: So is this a bad habit?

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Speaker 2: I think I know the answer, And how do we

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Speaker 2: get out of this because it feels so addictive?

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Speaker 1: Okay, so do we want to do a bit of

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Speaker 1: a coaching session here?

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Speaker 2: Can well please coach me and everyone listening because we

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Speaker 2: all need to put our phones down and we all can't.

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Speaker 1: Amazing. So the first thing to start with when we're

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Speaker 1: looking at changing a habit is understanding what are like

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Speaker 1: the biggest barriers in the way to behavior change. So

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Speaker 1: the four main barriers in the way of making a

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Speaker 1: change and in this case getting off your phone, and

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Speaker 1: we can apply this in the context of health as well.

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Speaker 1: First main barrier to change is motivation. So sometimes we're

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Speaker 1: told that we have to change our behavior, but we

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Speaker 1: don't really want to because, let's face it, instead, TikTok,

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Speaker 1: they're very addictive. You know, a lot of short term

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Speaker 1: pleasure there. So the second barrier is relational. So this

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Speaker 1: is the social norms that might be driving us to

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Speaker 1: behave in a certain way. So with your phone, like

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Speaker 1: maybe your partner also spends a lot of time on

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Speaker 1: his phone and you're both just kind of in mobile

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Speaker 1: phone world a lot of the time. And so if

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Speaker 1: that's the social norm in your household or in your workplace,

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Speaker 1: that's going to be a bit of a barrier in

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Speaker 1: the way to changing your behavior. So we've got motivation,

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Speaker 1: We've got relational barriers. Then we've got environmental barriers. So

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Speaker 1: this is about the physical environment that we live, work

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Speaker 1: and play in. If, for example, your phone is always

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Speaker 1: within a meter of you, like it's always within reach,

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Speaker 1: it's just so easy to pick up and grab, potentially

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Speaker 1: that is a barrier getting in the way. If you

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Speaker 1: had a rule where that phone is always going to

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Speaker 1: be in a separate room to where you are, which

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Speaker 1: places a physical barrier in the way of you picking

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Speaker 1: it out, that will change behavior. So environmental barriers might

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Speaker 1: be a player, I like, if I would guess, I

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Speaker 1: think that's what it might be. Then the vinyl barrier

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Speaker 1: is around cognitive barriers where we're just so tired and

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Speaker 1: exhausted and when we feel like that, it's really hard

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Speaker 1: to create new habits and to break old ones. So

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Speaker 1: they're the four things motivation, relational barriers, environmental barriers, and

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Speaker 1: cognitive barriers. Kayla, what do you reckon?

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Speaker 2: It is?

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Speaker 1: For you and the phone? I'm gonna blame my husband.

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Speaker 2: He is always on his phone, so there is that

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Speaker 2: the phone is always on me. I think that social

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Speaker 2: media is addictive. I think it's a dopamine hit for me.

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Speaker 2: I like that, and I feel like as soon as

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Speaker 2: I get off the phone.

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Speaker 1: I'm like, hmm, I'm bored.

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Speaker 2: It just feels like it's one of those things that

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Speaker 2: I just feel like I can't break. And I think

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Speaker 2: this is very common, and people are listening.

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Speaker 1: You hear this.

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Speaker 2: If it's not your phone, it's something else, And like

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Speaker 2: you said, it might be processed food or not going

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Speaker 2: to the gym or whatever it is. And you think,

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Speaker 2: but that's just too hard. So how do we get

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Speaker 2: out of that mindset of well, that's just too hard.

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Speaker 1: It's very common, and I think a lot of people

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Speaker 1: beat themselves up when they're unsuccessful in making a change.

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Speaker 1: But what's really important to know is that knowing something

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Speaker 1: like having the knowledge or information is not enough to

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Speaker 1: make a change. So don't beat yourself up if you're

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Speaker 1: really struggling to change a habit, because most of us

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Speaker 1: do struggle. I'll send an assessment to put in the

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Speaker 1: show notes so that people listening can actually identify what

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Speaker 1: is the biggest barrier standing in the way, because that

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Speaker 1: is the first thing to do. Once you can identify that,

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Speaker 1: you compare a behavior change strategy that is going to

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Speaker 1: actually work. I'm just thinking about what you said about

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Speaker 1: Jay and if you're in a household where you and

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Speaker 1: your husband are using the phone a lot, because I

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Speaker 1: think it's really hard if you're trying to break your

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Speaker 1: phone habit, but Jay is not, and so what you

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Speaker 1: could do there A really good strategy when you're trying

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Speaker 1: to overcome a relational barrier is actually finding a strategy

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Speaker 1: that does involve other people. And so a perfect one

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Speaker 1: for you guys might be having an accountability buddy where

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Speaker 1: you share your goal and maybe you have a joint

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Speaker 1: goal around this. If Jay is also struggling as well,

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Speaker 1: it's just say, okay, I have a goal to just

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Speaker 1: be off social media from seven o'clock a night, let's say,

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Speaker 1: and maybe you both get set that goal and you

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Speaker 1: act as each other's accountability.

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Speaker 2: I love that.

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Speaker 1: And this is not only applied to the phone.

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Speaker 2: This applies to I'm thinking now as you're speaking, I'm

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Speaker 2: saying this applies to fitness as well. It's really hard

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Speaker 2: to change your health and fitness journey when your partner,

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Speaker 2: the people are living with you are not on board

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Speaker 2: and not doing the same thing. There was another thing

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Speaker 2: I heard about. I heard this word so many times,

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Speaker 2: but I would love for you to explain as an

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Speaker 2: expert what habit stacking is and how we can all

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Speaker 2: apply it to our lives, because it just seems so

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Speaker 2: simple and the easiest thing to do.

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Speaker 1: Habit stacking is particularly useful, I would say, when there's

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Speaker 1: a cognitive barrier at play, like when you're just feeling

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Speaker 1: exhausted and overwhelmed and the idea of creating a new

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Speaker 1: habit just seems overwhelming. So what habit stacking is, because ultimately,

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Speaker 1: let's remember it, habit is something that is automatic. It

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Speaker 1: just happens. That is what a habit is. I would

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Speaker 1: say most people would be in the habit of brushing

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Speaker 1: their teeth, and let's just say you've got the brushing

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Speaker 1: your teeth habit down pat But maybe your dentist had said, Kaylie,

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Speaker 1: you really need to start flossing, and you might think

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Speaker 1: to yourself, oh my gosh, I hate flossing, and how

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Speaker 1: am I going to remember? That? Just seems too hard.

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Speaker 1: Habit stacking would involve creating a trigger in your mind

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Speaker 1: to say, okay, when I brush my teeth, which is

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Speaker 1: an existing habit that will trigger me to go, now

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Speaker 1: I need to floss. So it's stacking a new habit

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Speaker 1: on top of something that already exists.

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Speaker 2: So people listening, they're thinking, I want to create that

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Speaker 2: good habit of every day going to the gym or

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Speaker 2: doing a workout, how would you habit stack when you

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Speaker 2: have one never been to the gym before, so you've

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Speaker 2: never created the good habit and how would you start that?

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Speaker 1: And I think let's even take going to the gym,

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Speaker 1: like a different physical location out of the equation, because

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Speaker 1: that's a huge barrier in the way. And I know

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Speaker 1: that you're obviously a big fan of the home workout

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Speaker 1: and what can be achieved with literally no equipment. So

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Speaker 1: if we're talking about habit stacking and trying to create

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Speaker 1: some sort of movement or exercise habit. I like to

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Speaker 1: think about what time of the day do you realistically think, yeah,

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Speaker 1: I could do that. There's a lot of benefits that

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Speaker 1: come with exercising in the morning in terms of boosting

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Speaker 1: out energy and mood for the rest of the day.

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Speaker 1: So let's just say you have a cup of coffee

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Speaker 1: every morning. Then what you might say to yourself is,

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Speaker 1: when I'm making the coffee, when I'm boiling the kettle,

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Speaker 1: I am going to do, say ten squats, ten air

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Speaker 1: squats up and down, and that's it start really small,

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Speaker 1: and then what you do is it just start to

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Speaker 1: build up from there. I think, what are the barriers?

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Speaker 1: And I mean, like you'd know this more than me.

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Speaker 1: To exercise is that people think they need like a

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Speaker 1: thirty minute or sixty minute block of time, and that

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Speaker 1: can feel huge, but it doesn't require that. All you

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Speaker 1: need you can do a set of anything in like

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Speaker 1: sixty seconds, and that might be the time it takes

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Speaker 1: for the kettle to boil while you're making a coffee.

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Speaker 1: We will be back in a moment where I answer

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Speaker 1: the question do we really need a large dose of

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Speaker 1: discipline to make a successful change to our behavior? If

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Speaker 1: you're looking for more tips to improve the way you

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Speaker 1: work and live. I write a weekly newsletter where I

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Speaker 1: share practical and simple to apply tips to improve your life.

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Speaker 1: You can sign up for that at Amantha dot substack

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Speaker 1: dot com. That's Amantha dot substack dot com.

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Speaker 2: The other thing that I wanted to ask you about

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Speaker 2: was motivation is what gets you started, but discipline is

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Speaker 2: what keeps you going. How do people even get the

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Speaker 2: motivation to start and how do they then get the

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Speaker 2: discipline to continue?

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Speaker 1: Okay, let's talk about that. I disagree with that. I'm

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Speaker 1: not a fan of relying on discipline or willpower because

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Speaker 1: it's a limited resource. So instead, when it comes to motivation,

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Speaker 1: one of the strategies that I love and I use

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Speaker 1: this personally every single week is a strategy called temptation bundling.

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Speaker 1: So what this is all about is that for most people,

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Speaker 1: exercise and people's associations with exercise is something unpleasant. It

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Speaker 1: requires huffing and puffing and discomfort. And what temptation bundling

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Speaker 1: is all about is combining that thing that is unpleasant,

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Speaker 1: which in this case let's talk about exercise, with something

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Speaker 1: that is pleasurable. In my life, I have a hideously

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Speaker 1: expensive exercise bike called Carol, which has these different protocols

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Speaker 1: pre programmed into it, and it's all very complex and

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Speaker 1: very expensive. And I love the bike, but I hate

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Speaker 1: being on the bike. The problem is I needed to

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Speaker 1: drive motivation in the meantime. One of the things that

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Speaker 1: I get a lot of pleasure from, and I will

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Speaker 1: lose any kind of credibility when I reveal this, is

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Speaker 1: that I love watching the US Bachelor. It has to

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Speaker 1: be the US version of the Bachelor because maximum bitchiness, right,

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Speaker 1: And if I sit on the couch watching the Bachelor,

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Speaker 1: I feel disgusting about myself. I feel so guilty. I'm like,

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Speaker 1: what am I doing? It's so anti feminists and everything

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Speaker 1: I stand for.

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Speaker 2: It is someone else's chaos and drama in another country.

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Speaker 2: It is not your chaos and drama. So therefore it

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Speaker 2: can be interesting and you know it's fake, it's TV,

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Speaker 2: Like I.

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Speaker 1: Get it all right, Okay. So here's how temptation bundling works.

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Speaker 1: It combines those two activities. What I do now to

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Speaker 1: get myself on the bike and feeling motivated is that

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Speaker 1: I have a rule. I can only watch the Bachelor

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Speaker 1: if I'm on the exercise bike. So I set up

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Speaker 1: my iPad on the bike and I watch The Bachelor

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Speaker 1: as I ride. It's a great distraction from the pain

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Speaker 1: of being on the bike and doing all out sprints.

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Speaker 1: It makes ultimately this thing that was unpleasurable very pleasurable.

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Speaker 1: Turns the Bachelor from a guilty pleasure into just a pleasure,

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Speaker 1: and it makes it really enjoyable to get on the bike.

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Speaker 2: It can literally be anything. Whatever makes you feel good.

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Speaker 2: Pair that with your good habit that you would like

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Speaker 2: to form, because at the end of the day, it

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Speaker 2: is exercise. It is going to make you feel good.

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Speaker 2: The more consistent you are with it, the happier you're

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Speaker 2: going to become. You will be disciplined to do it,

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Speaker 2: will become part of your life, and then you'll start

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Speaker 2: adding in more good things. So the other thing is

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Speaker 2: I think people make things mature by cutting things out.

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Speaker 2: Therefore they feel like they can't do them. I just

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Speaker 2: think there's so many barriers that women create for themselves.

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Speaker 2: What are some of the most common things that you see.

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Speaker 1: You know, with habits, you're either trying to break a

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Speaker 1: bad habit or adopt a new one. And in the

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Speaker 1: world of women's health and fitness, It often is about,

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Speaker 1: you know, eliminating something or doing less of the bad thing,

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Speaker 1: But how can we think about doing more of the

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Speaker 1: good stuff as well, because sometimes it can be easier

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Speaker 1: to add things rather than subtractings. Writing the health habit

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Speaker 1: and looking at what can we do in terms of

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Speaker 1: our nutrition. There's obvious things that we can not do

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Speaker 1: or cut down on, like in terms of hyperprocessed foods,

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Speaker 1: but then there are so many things that we can

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Speaker 1: think about adding if we're say, trying to improve gut health, like,

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Speaker 1: for example, we can eat our probiotics, we can eat

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Speaker 1: more fermented vegetables than kimchi and yogurt and so forth

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Speaker 1: to feed our guts. So that's about adding something, and

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Speaker 1: often that can be quite a pleasurable habit to add in.

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Speaker 2: And then maybe it's not about calling things a bad habit.

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Speaker 2: Maybe my phone isn't a bad habit. I just choose

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Speaker 2: to use it at bad times, which creates chaos in

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Speaker 2: my life. So what I could be doing instead is

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Speaker 2: on my treadmill walks in the morning. I could use

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Speaker 2: that time to be on my phone to scroll and

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Speaker 2: get all my sort of social media whatever I want

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Speaker 2: out then place my phone away and then go about

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Speaker 2: my day. Should be calling it a bad habit or

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Speaker 2: should we just be calling it something that we do?

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Speaker 2: Are there bad habits?

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Speaker 1: I think that there are habits that don't serve people.

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Speaker 1: I think bad habit is quite judgmental, but you know,

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Speaker 1: ultimately it's thinking about what are the habits that I

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Speaker 1: can drop or that I can add to my life

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Speaker 1: that are going to help me live the kind of

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Speaker 1: life that I want to live.

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Speaker 2: Yeah. Well, you've helped me so much in this Not

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Speaker 2: making things feel like a chore could help you implement

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Speaker 2: so many good habits into your life. This podcast could

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Speaker 2: literally change your life today. Thank you so much for

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Speaker 2: joining me.

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Speaker 1: You are incredible. Ah, my pleasure, my pleasure. I hope

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Speaker 1: you enjoyed this little break from how I work. And

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Speaker 1: if you're keen to listen to more of Kayla's podcast,

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Speaker 1: just search for Sweat Daily wherever you listen to podcasts.