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Speaker 1: It's the Happy Families podcast. It's the podcast for the

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Speaker 1: time poor parent who just wants answers Now. A few

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Speaker 1: weeks ago on the Happy Families podcast, we had a

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Speaker 1: fascinating and genuinely fun conversation with Deb Blakely about kids lunchboxes,

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Speaker 1: fussy eating at school, and all the challenges around that. Hello,

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Speaker 1: this is doppor Justin colson On, the founder of Happy

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Speaker 1: Families dot com dot and the parenting expert on Channel

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Speaker 1: Line's Parental Guidance. Season two is getting closer now and

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Speaker 1: Deb joins me again today. Deb Blakely is the founder, director,

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Speaker 1: and lead, a credited practicing dietitian of Kids Dig Food Today, Deb,

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Speaker 1: I want to have a conversation with you that kind

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Speaker 1: of spins off the back of something that we touched

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Speaker 1: on just briefly in our last chat, and it's something

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Speaker 1: that comes up a lot in the Happy Families community.

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Speaker 1: Families who were raising children who are near a diverse

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Speaker 1: sometimes can really struggle to develop a good relationship with food.

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Speaker 1: They the kids can be fussy, the kids can be distracted,

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Speaker 1: The kids can sometimes just say that they don't want

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Speaker 1: to eat, but they can often end up with a

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Speaker 1: complicated relationship with food for any number of reasons. Well,

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Speaker 1: would you like to start with this, how do we

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Speaker 1: as parents support neurodiverse kids with having a really good

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Speaker 1: relationship with food?

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Speaker 2: Yeah, this is a topic that's really close to my heart,

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Speaker 2: Justin And I guess the key thing here is to

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Speaker 2: think about is everything that we're doing neurodiversity of firming.

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Speaker 3: And I'm not sure if you've had.

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Speaker 2: Any podcasts that you've done around what neurodiversity of firming

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Speaker 2: approaches are, and it goes right across anything that we

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Speaker 2: do to support neurodivergent kiddos and adults as well. And

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Speaker 2: so I think in the context of food, we need

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Speaker 2: to be thinking, Okay, this kiddo is going to likely

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Speaker 2: have a very different relationship with food than I do.

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Speaker 2: Perhaps if you're not neurodivergent. Even if you are, and

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Speaker 2: you're a divergent yourself as an adult, your child is

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Speaker 2: likely to have a different relationship with food anyway. And

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Speaker 2: I guess what I mean by that is that.

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Speaker 3: We can't look through the lens.

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Speaker 2: Of the typical when we're supporting neurodivergent kids.

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Speaker 3: How does that land for you?

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Speaker 1: It makes perfect sense. I mean, we've got kids who

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Speaker 1: are responding to their environment, they're responding to food, they're

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Speaker 1: responding to us in ways that are not consistent with

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Speaker 1: what we see in typical development. So it would make

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Speaker 1: sense to me that we would want to provide them

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Speaker 1: with a supportive approach, but we really want to be

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Speaker 1: attuned to them and what their needs.

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Speaker 3: Are, right, Yeah, absolutely.

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Speaker 2: So the way that can look like in practice is

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Speaker 2: that family meals may look different for a family within

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Speaker 2: You're a divergent kid, and there's usually more than one.

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Speaker 2: You're a divergent person in a family, So sometimes we're

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Speaker 2: managing the needs of a few different people, as you know,

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Speaker 2: so neurodivergent people. Some of the ways that that can

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Speaker 2: look is, you know, sensory challenges or sensory differences. I

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Speaker 2: like to use the word differences these days, and apologies

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Speaker 2: to any neurodivergent families out there if I get words wrong.

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Speaker 2: I'm a lifelong learner as well, so I'm doing my

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Speaker 2: best to be as neurodiversity affirming as we speak as

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Speaker 2: I can, but please be gentle if I slip up.

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Speaker 2: So they might have different sensory needs. So, for example,

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Speaker 2: a child might find it really difficult to sit at

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Speaker 2: the table if it's really noisy and there's clattering of

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Speaker 2: knives and forks and everyone's talking, and maybe the person

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Speaker 2: next to them choose really loudly, for example, and they

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Speaker 2: don't like that. Maybe they're not great with big smells.

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Speaker 2: So some of the things that we can do is

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Speaker 2: to kind of really understand the experience of that child,

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Speaker 2: work with a family to say, okay, well, how do

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Speaker 2: you want times to look like and you know what's

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Speaker 2: important to you. You know, if coming together as a

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Speaker 2: family is really important, are there ways that we can

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Speaker 2: make that easier for your child where everyone can get

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Speaker 2: their needs met. You know, sometimes eating together might not

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Speaker 2: be accessible to every family, and so we're working with Okay,

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Speaker 2: well what's going to work best for you? And that

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Speaker 2: you know, from my early training, like you know, eating

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Speaker 2: is a felt like that's what you do, that's the

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Speaker 2: gold's standard.

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Speaker 3: But what I've learned through working with.

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Speaker 2: Many, many in Eurodrovirgin families is that that's not always

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Speaker 2: the best thing, you know, and it's not necessary, it's

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Speaker 2: not necessary always for kids to be doing well with eating.

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Speaker 2: Sometimes they need something different.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, I'm really sympathetic to the maturation and developmental processes

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Speaker 1: that are required as well, even for kids that aren't

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Speaker 1: near a diverse like I don't think that it's that

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Speaker 1: necessary or even reasonable to expect that year old or

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Speaker 1: a four year old, or sometimes even a five or

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Speaker 1: a six year old is going to sit still and

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Speaker 1: participate in a family meal every single time. We can

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Speaker 1: teach them bit by bit, and we should be encouraging

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Speaker 1: it because we do know, as you said, the gold standard.

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Speaker 1: When you look at the research, families that sit down

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Speaker 1: and have a meal together do tend to have better

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Speaker 1: outcomes on average than families who don't. But there are

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Speaker 1: so many other circumstances here. So if I was to

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Speaker 1: wrap that up, I really want to get onto the

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Speaker 1: food aspect itself. But if I was to wrap up

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Speaker 1: what you've said at this point, dev what I'm hearing

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Speaker 1: you say is work with your child, invite your child's

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Speaker 1: explore where they're up to what seems to work for them.

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Speaker 1: Something that I didn't hear you say, but I think

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Speaker 1: is implied. And everything you're suggesting is that this is

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Speaker 1: going to be an evolution. Like kids, their preferences change

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Speaker 1: as they age, and as they mature, they'll mature into

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Speaker 1: or out of certain eating habits and behaviors. What I'm

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Speaker 1: fascinated about, though, is the actual food issues. So a

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Speaker 1: lot of kids forget that they need to eat. A

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Speaker 1: lot of kids completely melt down. They say that they're

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Speaker 1: not hungry while they're losing the plot, and then five

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Speaker 1: minutes later they're like, Oh, actually, I really am hungry.

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Speaker 1: That's why I was having the melt down. How do

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Speaker 1: we help them to become aware of their body's needs?

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Speaker 1: And the second thing, something that I've seen a lot

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Speaker 1: is that neurodiverse kids tend to, on average, be less

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Speaker 1: inclined to eat foods that are going to be more

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Speaker 1: sustaining and nutritious for them. They do tend towards the

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Speaker 1: either the sugary or the junkie or the white or

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Speaker 1: yellow foods that don't give them the same level of

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Speaker 1: sustenance as the rainbow, the colorful foods that we usually

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Speaker 1: want to encourage our kids to eat. Can you touch

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Speaker 1: on each of those two questions for me?

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Speaker 3: Yeah?

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Speaker 2: So, first, art forgetting to eat, you know, there can

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Speaker 2: be lots of reasons for that. And one thing that

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Speaker 2: we do know is that for the majority of us,

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Speaker 2: and particularly neurodivergent kids. Routines can be really helpful because

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Speaker 2: routines create a sense of safety, a sense of reliability.

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Speaker 2: They know what's going to happen, and that can be

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Speaker 2: really settling for neurodivergent kiddos who are dealing with so much.

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Speaker 2: Like if you think about the difference between and your

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Speaker 2: a typical child and in you're a divergent child, say,

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Speaker 2: going into the school environment, they are needing to manage

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Speaker 2: their sensory system, to stay pay attention. All of those

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Speaker 2: things are so much more difficult, and so again routine

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Speaker 2: around meal times can really help. And I know with

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Speaker 2: my own child over the holidays, who is neurodivergent, it

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Speaker 2: was so much more difficult for them because all of

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Speaker 2: a sudden the routine was gone. Where actually they find school,

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Speaker 2: the routine of school, even though they don't do particularly

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Speaker 2: well eating at school, just the fact that they have

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Speaker 2: to open their lunch box, like I was finding I

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Speaker 2: was constantly.

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Speaker 3: Remind of you eating lunch. Yet, well it's afternoon tea time.

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Speaker 2: You know, they're a teen, so you know, I'm trying

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Speaker 2: to help them be a bit more independent about these things,

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Speaker 2: which is totally developmentally appropriate. For them, but it was

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Speaker 2: more challenging because the routine was missing.

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Speaker 1: What if we were to talk about the challenge of

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Speaker 1: food selection, this difficulty around I only want pasta, I

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Speaker 1: only want rice, I only want cheese, or I want

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Speaker 1: cheesy pasta, or I'll only eat a cheese pizza, or

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Speaker 1: that whole rigidity around food choice.

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Speaker 2: Yeah. Absolutely, So, firstly, it's really important to understand why

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Speaker 2: it's there.

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Speaker 3: And for neurodivergent.

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Speaker 2: People, sticking to foods that are really familiar and safe

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Speaker 2: to them is really important because again it's another way

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Speaker 2: that provides them that stability, that reliability. Change can sometimes

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Speaker 2: be quite overwhelming, and their foods that I will say

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Speaker 2: they're usually eating foods are incredibly important to them.

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Speaker 3: And so we need to look at.

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Speaker 2: This challenge not through a the littlens of a neurotypical person.

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Speaker 2: We need to look at it from the perspective of

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Speaker 2: the neurodivergent person. So the first thing I do as

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Speaker 2: a dietitian if a family comes to me concerned about variety,

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Speaker 2: is that we will actually have a look at the

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Speaker 2: breadth of the foods that the child has. And sometimes

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Speaker 2: a child, even though they look like they're eating a

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Speaker 2: really limited food range. They're still having one or two

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Speaker 2: foods from each food group, or maybe maybe a few more.

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Speaker 2: And you know, when we run that through our food

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Speaker 2: assessment programs, some electronic programs we use that we can

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Speaker 2: some of us dieticians who are really tricky can actually

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Speaker 2: do it in their heads. You know, we can work out, okay, well,

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Speaker 2: is this person meeting most of their nutrition needs? And

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Speaker 2: it's always really curious to me in the majority of

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Speaker 2: cases that kids that have this really limited diet are

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Speaker 2: actually meeting their nutrition needs from that limited range. So again,

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Speaker 2: you know, this is this idea that we all have

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Speaker 2: to have this amazing array of foods I think we

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Speaker 2: need to put to one side in order to be

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Speaker 2: able to support our neurodivergent folk.

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Speaker 3: So it can be really damaging to do that.

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Speaker 1: Okay, all right. I love talking to you, deb because

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Speaker 1: these conversations tend to remind me I'm a little bit

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Speaker 1: extra when it comes to food. I want the kids

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Speaker 1: to be getting So my mum trained as a dietitian,

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Speaker 1: and so I've had it ingrained in me that you've

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Speaker 1: got to eat the whole meal, bread and if you

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Speaker 1: can get seeds in that's even better. And I've had

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Speaker 1: it drummed into me that you need to eat the rainbow.

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Speaker 1: The more colorful foods are on their plate, the better,

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Speaker 1: And things like eggs have got a I can't remember

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Speaker 1: what it is, a nutritional value of one. Apparently that's

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Speaker 1: a really good thing. And so all of these things

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Speaker 1: have been drummed into me. And while I know from

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Speaker 1: a parenting point of view, how important is that my

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Speaker 1: kids have a voice and that things are predictable and

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Speaker 1: they feel safe, and all the things that you've talked about,

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Speaker 1: the conversations that I have with you remind me to

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Speaker 1: just stop sweating the small stuff. Make sure the kids

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Speaker 1: are eating, make sure they're not malnourished, and they'll probably

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Speaker 1: be okay. I guess as well. Something that I've watched

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Speaker 1: having raised six children. Our eldest is married and moved

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Speaker 1: out at our youngest is eight, but we've we've got

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Speaker 1: six kids across fifteen years. What we've also noticed is

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Speaker 1: as they get older, their taste matures, they start to

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Speaker 1: become more experimental. They start to open up and say, hm, well,

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Speaker 1: everyone keeps saying that avocado is really nice on wraps,

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Speaker 1: and I've said no, for the last fourteen years. But

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Speaker 1: tonight I think I'm going to try the guacamole. I

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Speaker 1: think I'll just have a little bit and see what happens.

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Speaker 1: I might put a little bit of chili on my

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Speaker 1: whatever it is. We've actually watched it happen, and every

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Speaker 1: time it does happen, every time we see one of

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Speaker 1: these younger kids who's been so obstinate and so rigid

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Speaker 1: around their food make a small concession and say, Okay,

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Speaker 1: I'll give it a go, it reminds me that's right.

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Speaker 1: They will, They will figure it out, They'll get there.

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Speaker 2: Yeah.

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Speaker 3: Yeah.

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Speaker 2: And what you speak to their is autonomy. So the

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Speaker 2: difference in that experience with your children who all of

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Speaker 2: a sudden, spontaneously decide they want to try avocado, is

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Speaker 2: that it was I bet it was their idea in

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Speaker 2: the moment.

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Speaker 1: There might have been eight or ten years of come on,

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Speaker 1: you want to give it a go tonight, But it's

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Speaker 1: never been forceful. It's never been you need to eat this.

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Speaker 2: What I've found in my clinical experience is that the

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Speaker 2: process and the progress can seem super slow, But the

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Speaker 2: way we keep things safe for neurodivergent children and the

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Speaker 2: way we allow them to blossom into whatever food direction

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Speaker 2: they're going to go. Is to provide that safety for

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Speaker 2: families to really step away from pressure. And you know,

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Speaker 2: again you know your example of you know, come on,

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Speaker 2: just try it. Some kids will be fine with that,

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Speaker 2: some kids really won't. And I encourage families out there

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Speaker 2: to look at their own children and their own experience

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Speaker 2: of their children to decide is this helpful for my

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Speaker 2: child and is it not? I warrant to say that

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Speaker 2: for most children, if it's not unhelpful, it's probably.

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Speaker 3: Not necessary as long.

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Speaker 2: As we continue to give children the opportunity so mine

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Speaker 2: neurodivergent kiddo loves completely different foods to me.

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Speaker 3: There are some foods that I absolutely adore that they

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Speaker 3: really don't like.

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Speaker 1: I love that you said that. It makes me think.

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Speaker 1: I remember saying to a parent once they were saying,

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Speaker 1: my kid is so fussy around food, and I said, well,

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Speaker 1: you're you're fussy around food as well. It's just that

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Speaker 1: you get to buy the food that you like. Well, like,

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Speaker 1: we're all fussy, we all know what we do and

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Speaker 1: don't like. It's just that as the parents, we're in

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Speaker 1: charge of whereas this poor kid just has to eat

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Speaker 1: what we say that they're going to like because we

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Speaker 1: happen to like that food and want to cook it.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, and sometimes it's about presenting foods in ways that

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Speaker 2: you know can help neurodivergent kids to kind of you

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Speaker 2: know that that's acceptable for them. They'll give you a

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Speaker 2: couple of examples. So and again, everybody's different. This is

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Speaker 2: not going to work for every neurodivergent child. However, some

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Speaker 2: of the families I've worked with over a very long

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Speaker 2: period of time, we've worked out that, you know, particular

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Speaker 2: children really love that process of being alongside the parents

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Speaker 2: and being involved in some kind of cooking activity or

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Speaker 2: food prep, or maybe they love going to the supermarket.

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Speaker 2: And what we can do then is build on that

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Speaker 2: curiosity wherever it comes up around food to give that

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Speaker 2: child more chance to be autonomous, more chance to have

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Speaker 2: success and feel like they're capable around food. And we

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Speaker 2: start to see these little glimmers of success that happen,

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Speaker 2: but they're not directed by us, and I think that's

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Speaker 2: the difference. So, you know, when we're working with neurodivergent families,

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Speaker 2: with neurodivergent children, we need to really sit back and

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Speaker 2: listen and understand and really take on board what the

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Speaker 2: families are telling us, what the children are telling us

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Speaker 2: about what they need, and be guided by their interests,

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Speaker 2: by their curiosity. Because when kids are safe enough, feel

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Speaker 2: calm enough, comfortable enough, which can need to be sticking

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Speaker 2: to all of their safe foods for a pretty long time,

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Speaker 2: we then start to sometimes see these little areas of

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Speaker 2: light where we can support those kids.

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Speaker 3: To do more with food.

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Speaker 1: Grateful to hear that there is hope. Deb Blakelee is

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Speaker 1: the founder, director, and lead a credited practicing dietitian at

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Speaker 1: Kidsdigfood dot com dot au. You can find her online

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Speaker 1: and of course meet up with her for consultations and

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Speaker 1: get all the help that you need for kids and

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Speaker 1: fussy eating. Deb, great to be with you. Thank you

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Speaker 1: so much for joining us on the podcast again. Thanks Justin,

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Speaker 1: look forward to talking to you again soon. I've got

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Speaker 1: another handful of questions that I want to ask you

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Speaker 1: as a result of this conversation, so we'll have to

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Speaker 1: book that in. The Happy Families podcast is produced by

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Speaker 1: Justin Roland from Bridge Media. Craig Bruce is our executive

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Speaker 1: producer and if you'd like more info about how to

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Speaker 1: make your family have you check out Deb's website Kids

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Speaker 1: digfood dot com dot you, or visit us at happy

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Speaker 1: families dot com dot au