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Speaker 1: When I was a child. My mom, my mom, she

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Speaker 1: was very concerned about her daughters and their friendships and

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Speaker 1: she feared a fair bit. There was quite a lot

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Speaker 1: of friends with disapproval around my sisters, and I have

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Speaker 1: four of them, so I can say this reasonably safely

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Speaker 1: and their friends and as a general rule, that interference

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Speaker 1: tended to make things worse. There was one time with

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Speaker 1: one of my sisters she had a strong keen interest

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Speaker 1: in a young man and my parents were so concerned

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Speaker 1: about that keen interest that they shipped her off to

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Speaker 1: some family friends in Queensland to try to avert any

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Speaker 1: disasters that might happen if that relationship was allowed to flourish.

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Speaker 1: And guess what, Kylie, it made it worse. Stay with us. Hello,

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Speaker 1: my name is doctor Justin Coslam, here with my wife

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Speaker 1: from under our six kids, missus, happy families, Kylie. And

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Speaker 1: today the conversation is should we interfere with our children's friendships? Kylie?

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Speaker 1: Have you ever been tempted? Have you ever interfered? Have

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Speaker 1: you sat the kids down and said we've got a

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Speaker 1: problem here and it's your friends and it's the way

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Speaker 1: that you're acting after you've been with certain friends you're hilarious.

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Speaker 2: We have six girls, We've had plenty of opportunities.

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Speaker 1: Oh my goodness, Oh my goodness, I know, and it's

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Speaker 1: so hard.

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Speaker 2: Relationships are tricky, and especially when they're young and immature

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Speaker 2: and navigating this, and let's be real, it's still tricky

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Speaker 2: as adults.

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Speaker 1: Did you ever have this happen when you were a kid, Like,

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Speaker 1: did your parents ever sit you down and say, don't

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Speaker 1: like your friends, you need to change friendship groups.

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Speaker 2: I don't actually remember a single conversation like that. I

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Speaker 2: do remember once in my youth being friends with a

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Speaker 2: girl who was a little bit rebellious and she was

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Speaker 2: struggling to kind of work herself out, and plenty of

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Speaker 2: my other friend's parents had all spoken to my mum

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Speaker 2: about this girl and told her that they didn't think

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Speaker 2: that my parents should be encouraging our friendship. And my

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Speaker 2: mum did something really good. I think she literally told

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Speaker 2: these parents that she trusted me to make good choices

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Speaker 2: and that she hoped that my light, my goodness, would

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Speaker 2: rub off on this girl. And so my friendship with

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Speaker 2: her continued until I got to a point where I went,

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Speaker 2: you know what, I'm not ready for this. This isn't

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Speaker 2: the kind of friendship I want.

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Speaker 1: I think one of the central challenges that we face

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Speaker 1: here as well, Khylie, is that when we do interfere

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Speaker 1: with our children and their friendship groups or their friendships generally, well,

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Speaker 1: friendship groups are just tricky. There are several reasons for that.

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Speaker 1: One of those is, have you ever tried to change

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Speaker 1: a friendship group? Like watching your kids try to go

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Speaker 1: from group A to group B can be an exercise

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Speaker 1: in I almost want to use the word trauma. It

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Speaker 1: can be so so hard.

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Speaker 2: Well, I think that across the board people see it

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Speaker 2: as an act of disloyalty.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, what a great word for it.

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Speaker 2: You've been loyal to this group and all of a

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Speaker 2: sudden you're changing, and so the new group's looking at you, going, well,

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Speaker 2: if things don't go well here, what are you going

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Speaker 2: to do? You're just going to ditch us? And they

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Speaker 2: don't want to put in the time and energy into

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Speaker 2: a person who seems.

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Speaker 1: Wishy washy, and they commit and the group that you're

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Speaker 1: leaving feel completely rejected like what are we not good enough?

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Speaker 1: You too good for us? And I guess the other

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Speaker 1: thing that I would add is that when you do

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Speaker 1: interfere with your friendship groups. How does it make your

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Speaker 1: child feel when you start to say, don't like who

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Speaker 1: you are when you hang out with that kid. Your

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Speaker 1: children don't really hear the friendship issue. They really just here,

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Speaker 1: don't like who you are. You're behaving differently, and that

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Speaker 1: increases that sense of shame, it increases anxiety. And so

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Speaker 1: in your research that I wanted to talk about in

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Speaker 1: today's podcast highlights that it gets worse when you interfere

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Speaker 1: with your children's friendships. It can actually reduce the number

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Speaker 1: of classmates who enjoy your child's company and increase the

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Speaker 1: number who say they dislike them. So there's a study

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Speaker 1: that's just been published in the Journal of Child Psychology

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Speaker 1: and Psychiatry. It is by a couple of Lithuanian researchers.

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Speaker 1: I can't pronounce their name, so I'm not going to

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Speaker 1: try to do it, but it's really really interesting. Five

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Speaker 1: hundred and sixty two students across six primary schools are

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Speaker 1: surveyed across a twelvemonth period, and essentially the research looks

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Speaker 1: at how much parents are interfering with friendships and how

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Speaker 1: much those kids are engaging in behaviors that are well

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Speaker 1: anti social or rebellious or challenging, smoking, drinking, skipping school, lying,

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Speaker 1: and cheating. We are talking about grade six kids here,

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Speaker 1: so some of these are pretty high level challenging behaviors

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Speaker 1: for children at that age. But what's really fascinating is

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Speaker 1: that when mums attempted to shepherd children away from relationships

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Speaker 1: that they thought were bad for their child, they inadvertently

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Speaker 1: created a problem where they worse than the behavioral issues.

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Speaker 1: The kids feel worse about themselves, they end up being

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Speaker 1: rejected by classmates, and then they behave in even more

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Speaker 1: challenging ways.

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Speaker 2: Again, does the article give us any hope?

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Speaker 1: Yeah, So, if your children are like, how do you

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Speaker 1: interfere effectively? Is that what you're saying? How do I intervene?

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Speaker 1: How do I make sure that my children are going

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Speaker 1: to be okay if I don't like who they're hanging

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Speaker 1: out with. It's a really tricky one. I thought this

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Speaker 1: quote from the lead research I can't actually pronounce his name.

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Speaker 1: His name was Brett Lawson. He says this, and it's

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Speaker 1: really interesting. Youth may report restrictions and their reasons to

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Speaker 1: their friends. In other words, if you express disapproval to

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Speaker 1: your child about a friendship that they're in, your child's

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Speaker 1: probably going to go and blab that to their friends.

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Speaker 2: Well, of course, because then it gives them an excuse

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Speaker 2: or a reason behind why they can't hang out with

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Speaker 2: that group after school, or why they're not allowed to

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Speaker 2: go to the birthday party or whatever. It makes mum

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Speaker 2: and dad the bad person, and hopefully in their minds,

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Speaker 2: will keep the attachment and the loyalty of the friendship.

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Speaker 1: Even at a basic level, though, they just don't have

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Speaker 1: the skills to know what to say and what not

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Speaker 1: to say. So if they're trying to leave a group

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Speaker 1: and they say, whoa, we know good enough for you,

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Speaker 1: and the child says Mum just says that I'm not

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Speaker 1: a very nice person to hang around you. It doesn't

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Speaker 1: like the child can't win in this situation. If they

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Speaker 1: try to communicate it, they've got no chance. Lawson also

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Speaker 1: ads or mothers may express their disapproval directly to friends.

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Speaker 1: In other words, Mum shows up at the school gate,

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Speaker 1: all the kids are playing in the street or whatever,

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Speaker 1: in the park or in the yard, and Mom says, no,

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Speaker 1: don't like, don't like the way this friendship's going. Not

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Speaker 1: happy with what's going on. Here, and either way the

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Speaker 1: kids are they've got no chance here. They can't come

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Speaker 1: back from that. Lawson says, neither are likely to be

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Speaker 1: welcomed by recipients. Friends may respond by spreading contempt or

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Speaker 1: ridicule throughout the peer group. Social opportunities are likely to

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Speaker 1: wither as peers avoid affiliating with someone who is depicted

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Speaker 1: as uncool.

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Speaker 2: So here's the challenge. And I have watched this time

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Speaker 2: and time again over the course of six children and

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Speaker 2: friendships in general, when there is challenge within a relationship,

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Speaker 2: it is two ways, right, is there is a reciprocal relationship.

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Speaker 1: And anyone who can't admit that has some significant blind spots.

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Speaker 2: Okay, back, most of the time parents feel that their

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Speaker 2: child is being victimized. I'm not talking about bullying, and

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Speaker 2: I need to make that really clear. Sure, yes, yes, yeah,

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Speaker 2: But in normal, everyday communication and relationship there is challenge regularly,

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Speaker 2: and it is a two way street.

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Speaker 1: Because relationships are tricky.

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Speaker 2: They are tricky and they're hard. But as parents, we

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Speaker 2: hurt when our children hurt, and therefore we see them

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Speaker 2: as the victim and not part of the challenge, and

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Speaker 2: it makes it really really hard for our children to

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Speaker 2: learn and grow if we're constantly stepping in and telling

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Speaker 2: them that they're not in the wrong at all, and

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Speaker 2: the other person is the big bully.

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Speaker 1: I really like that. There's one other thing that I

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Speaker 1: would add, and that is that when we do step in,

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Speaker 1: even if we can be impartial and clear eyed and

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Speaker 1: objective about it, if we make comments that are disparaging

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Speaker 1: about a relationship, about a friendship, it makes the people

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Speaker 1: in that relationship feel lousy about themselves, and it turns

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Speaker 1: them against us and maybe our child as well.

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Speaker 2: It also, in turn gives our children permission to focus

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Speaker 2: on the negative behaviors, the negative traits in others. We

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Speaker 2: ourselves have similar negative traits and behaviors, we all do,

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Speaker 2: but we allow our children to see others for the

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Speaker 2: challenge as opposed to the goodness that they possess.

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Speaker 1: All right, so let's talk about what we're supposed to do,

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Speaker 1: because every now and again there are relationships that our

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Speaker 1: children have where we feel like we really do need

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Speaker 1: to interfere.

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Speaker 2: So what do we do?

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Speaker 1: My friends with that kid a little bit earlier. I

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Speaker 1: love what you said before about your mum's example here.

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Speaker 1: She just trusted in urinnate goodness, she trusted that you

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Speaker 1: were able to figure this out for yourself. And it's

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Speaker 1: really hard for me to say this, and I know

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Speaker 1: it's really hard for every helicopter parent on the planet

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Speaker 1: to hear it.

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Speaker 2: I don't even think you have to be a halle

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Speaker 2: up to parent. I think this is hard. Relationships are

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Speaker 2: hardy watching it.

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Speaker 1: Parent who wants to interfere, I mean, we want to

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Speaker 1: get in there and make sure that our kids are okay,

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Speaker 1: and make sure that they're not behaving in challenging ways,

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Speaker 1: make sure they're not doing the wrong thing. As a

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Speaker 1: general rule, As a general rule, so long as there's

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Speaker 1: no bullying going on, and so long as your child

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Speaker 1: is not at real proper risk of real proper harm,

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Speaker 1: then I would say leave it alone. Just we've got

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Speaker 1: to stay out of it. It's worked pretty well for

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Speaker 1: us as a general rule with our kids. In fact,

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Speaker 1: you know what's really really interesting to me, there have

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Speaker 1: been a few friendships that our children have had where

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Speaker 1: I've wanted to interfere. I've wanted to say, you know what,

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Speaker 1: I don't think that kid's quite the right one for

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Speaker 1: you to be friends with. Can't you find another friend?

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Speaker 1: We've stayed out of those relationships. We've let our children

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Speaker 1: figure it out, and over time, some of those friendships

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Speaker 1: have become the most enduring and positive relation ships that

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Speaker 1: our children have had. And in other instances, our children

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Speaker 1: have naturally grown apart from that friend as time has

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Speaker 1: gone on and things haven't felt quite right. There's real

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Speaker 1: wisdom in just staying out of it, not helicoptering, and

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Speaker 1: giving them space.

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Speaker 2: Last week and I'll do better tomorrow, I shared the

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Speaker 2: experience of sitting down with Emily and talking about some

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Speaker 2: of the qualities that make a good friend. Yes, And

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Speaker 2: through that conversation we talked about what she could do things,

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Speaker 2: what areas could she focus on to be a better friend? Relationships?

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Speaker 2: Are these really really tricky part of our lives where

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Speaker 2: there is so much richness and opportunity for learning and growth,

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Speaker 2: And as parents, when we step in, we actually often

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Speaker 2: hinder our children's ability to grow.

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Speaker 1: But that conversation you had with her, and I don't

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Speaker 1: know if you've still got the paperwork here in our

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Speaker 1: little podcast studio, you don't have it, Okay. Those six

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Speaker 1: things that she came up with to be a better friend,

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Speaker 1: they were facilitated through a conversation not about a specific friendship,

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Speaker 1: but about friendship generally, and they were profound. I mean,

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Speaker 1: this little ten year old's brain and hard just absolutely gorgeous.

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Speaker 1: What she came up with, it was tremendous. So if

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Speaker 1: you concerned about friendships, maybe having that sort of discussion,

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Speaker 1: and if you'd like to go more in depth, just

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Speaker 1: go back to last Friday hour. I'll do better tomorrow

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Speaker 1: because that's where the real gold was there. There are

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Speaker 1: two other things that I want to highlight here. The

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Speaker 1: first one is that if you do interfere, first of all,

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Speaker 1: this research highlights that it can be quite negative. One

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Speaker 1: of my colleagues at the University of Rochester, Professor Chris Niemik,

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Speaker 1: did a study about ten years ago looking at the

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Speaker 1: forbidden fruit of forbidden friendships and pretty much found the

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Speaker 1: same thing that when parents interfere, the kids are drawn

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Speaker 1: more to their friends, they start to resist their parents.

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Speaker 2: I was about to say, you actually become the bad guy,

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Speaker 2: not the friend. Yeah, the friend that you're trying to

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Speaker 2: protect your child from becomes the forbidden fruit, and you

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Speaker 2: become a person who is untrustworthy.

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Speaker 1: They start to shift away from us as parents. At

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Speaker 1: the very time that we feel like they need is

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Speaker 1: the most. And this study here again, let me just emphasize,

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Speaker 1: as parents demonstrate reduced peer acceptance and start to interfere,

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Speaker 1: their children become less popular at school over the subsequent

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Speaker 1: twelve months and they have more conduct issues. In other words,

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Speaker 1: it doesn't work. It's a bad idea. Explore explain in

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Speaker 1: power talk about friendships more generally, but nothing specific. And

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Speaker 1: I think overall, the take home message from today's conversation

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Speaker 1: is when you don't like your children's friends, trust your kids,

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Speaker 1: don't hover, give them space. They'll work it out over time,

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Speaker 1: and so long as they're safe, it will be okay.

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Speaker 1: We will link to that study in the show notes,

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Speaker 1: as well as Chris nemix Forbidden Fruit Forbidden Friendship studies,

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Speaker 1: so that you can have a quick look if you're

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Speaker 1: inclined to look at the academic side of things. The

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Speaker 1: Happy Family's podcast is produced by Justin Ruland from Bridge Media.

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Speaker 1: More information about making your family how Viewers of our

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Speaker 1: Happy Families dot com dot au mm hmm