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Speaker 1: Just a warning ahead of today's podcast. The content that

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Speaker 1: we will share today is well listening to discretion is advised.

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Speaker 1: While not explicit, it's certainly not for young children. Parents

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Speaker 1: will want to make some decisions around whether the kids

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Speaker 1: listen to it or not. Today we're tackling something that

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Speaker 1: might make your stomach drop, just as it did for

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Speaker 1: dozens of families at Melbourne High School about two weeks ago.

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Speaker 1: Imagine getting a call at your daughter's school photo that

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Speaker 1: sweet picture of your teenage girl in her uniform that

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Speaker 1: sits on your desk has been transformed using AI into

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Speaker 1: explicit sexual content as being shared around the school and

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Speaker 1: the Internet. Or perhaps even harder, to imagine that your

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Speaker 1: son was one of the boys who created these images

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Speaker 1: of his classmates, maybe even with his classmates. No, this

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Speaker 1: is not a black mirror episode or a cautionary tale

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Speaker 1: from some distant future. This happened, like I said, two

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Speaker 1: weeks ago, at Gladston Park's Secondary College, where two year

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Speaker 1: eleven boys allegedly used artificial intelligence to create and share

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Speaker 1: sexually explicit images of their female classmates. It follows a

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Speaker 1: number of similar incidents over the last year or so

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Speaker 1: at various schools around the country where female students continued

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Speaker 1: to be victimized in the same way. God, I so

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Speaker 1: glad to have you along for today's Happy Families podcast,

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Speaker 1: Real Parenting Solutions. Every day on Australia's most downloaded parenting podcast,

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Speaker 1: we are Justin and Kylie Coulson and Kylie as parents

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Speaker 1: were navigating territory that no parent would have ever imagined

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Speaker 1: that they would have to navigate.

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Speaker 2: I remember when we were growing up, the biggest risk

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Speaker 2: to our children was coming across a pornographic magazine or

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Speaker 2: maybe someone had a cassette video tape that.

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Speaker 1: Might have Oh, they don't have the words for anymore.

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Speaker 1: Don't a VHS like a video? Yeah, a cassette tape

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Speaker 1: thing right.

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Speaker 2: With explicit content on it. But nowadays our kids are

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Speaker 2: literally carrying devices in their pockets that have access to

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Speaker 2: just innumerable.

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Speaker 1: One of my favorite podcasters, he's pretty coarse and crass,

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Speaker 1: but he just is so brilliant in the way that

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Speaker 1: he speaks. Prof. G. Scott Galloway one of the world's

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Speaker 1: leading podcasters. He talks about how our kids are running

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Speaker 1: around with paleolithic brains but God like technology in their pockets,

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Speaker 1: and this is what we're really talking about, Isn't it

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Speaker 1: like our teenagers have access to technology that can create

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Speaker 1: incredibly convincing fake images in seconds, and unfortunately that tech

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Speaker 1: is being weaponized in school yards across the country.

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Speaker 2: So you're writing a book on teenage boys at the

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Speaker 2: moment as we speak.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, I wasn't expecting that, but yes.

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Speaker 2: So the question is why.

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Speaker 1: As you boy, you don't see girls doing this, do you?

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Speaker 2: No, It's very rare that you would find girls doing

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Speaker 2: this kind of thing.

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Speaker 1: Okay, so first of all, let's just highlight this is

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Speaker 1: not quote unquote normal behavior. This is going beyond boundaries

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Speaker 1: that are acceptable, and the boys who are doing it

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Speaker 1: know that. Everybody knows that brings up issues around consent.

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Speaker 1: Obviously there's the exploitation angle on it as well, and

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Speaker 1: there's a whole lot more that we will talk about.

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Speaker 1: But to answer the question why I reckon, there's a

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Speaker 1: couple of things. Number One, this is hard to say,

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Speaker 1: but it's a reality. Boys and girls are different, and

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Speaker 1: research across decades is highlighted that boys are more sexually

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Speaker 1: interested than girls, especially when they're teenagers, and boys also

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Speaker 1: crave visual sexual stimulation more than girls on average. And

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Speaker 1: more sexual variety on average. All these things point to

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Speaker 1: the very real situation that boys are simply more interested

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Speaker 1: in experimenting with playing around with discovering things of a

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Speaker 1: sexual nature relative to girls. Furthermore, and this does not

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Speaker 1: excuse just because it's hardwired, doesn't mean that it's destiny. Okay,

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Speaker 1: But we know that boys are more likely to egg

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Speaker 1: each other on in a group setting than girls are. Like,

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Speaker 1: the collective IQ of boys when they're in a group

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Speaker 1: is significantly lower than the individual iQue of each boy

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Speaker 1: when they're on their own. Do you know what I mean?

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Speaker 1: When they're together, they just do dumb things you're throwing

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Speaker 1: as well, things like an increased propensity for sensation, seeking

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Speaker 1: higher levels of impulsivity. I mean, the average twenty four

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Speaker 1: year old male has the same level of impulse control

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Speaker 1: as the average ten year old girl. But my book

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Speaker 1: is going to be amazing. I love talking about this

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Speaker 1: stuff because this is what I'm writing about in the book.

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Speaker 1: So there's a hardwired reality that I guess creates Guys

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Speaker 1: are much more interested in the potential reward of a

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Speaker 1: behavior than the risks associated with the behavior, And when

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Speaker 1: somebody raises the risks, they say oh yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah,

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Speaker 1: but that's not going to happen to me, me, or

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Speaker 1: it's yeah, that's a risk, but it's not really that

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Speaker 1: big of a risk compared to the reward. Look at

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Speaker 1: the reward. It's going to be awesome. There's one last

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Speaker 1: thing that I do need to highlight. We could talk

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Speaker 1: about why for ages, and that is that we live

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Speaker 1: in a breathtakingly objectifying, sexualized, pornographied world and boys, I

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Speaker 1: don't know, boys get status for doing this sort of stuff.

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Speaker 1: They praise each other, they build each other up, not

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Speaker 1: all of them, but enough of them that some boys

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Speaker 1: have gone, this will be really good. Let's do it.

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Speaker 2: So clearly, I'm not a teenage boy, and I have

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Speaker 2: to admit I really would not like to be inside

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Speaker 2: a teenage boy's brain right now. But I have to

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Speaker 2: ask the question, when boys do things like this, is

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Speaker 2: there an iota of thought for the impact that it

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Speaker 2: will have on the target?

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Speaker 1: No, girl, No, No, Well I shouldn't say no, but

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Speaker 1: I think it's kind of unlikely. And let me explain why.

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Speaker 1: Researchers a number of years ago discovered that as testosterone boosts.

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Speaker 1: And let me be clear, when testosterone goes up in

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Speaker 1: boys when puberty hits. Okay, so there's three major testosterone

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Speaker 1: boosts in a boy's life. The first one is when

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Speaker 1: that child is conceived. Okay, you've got this x Y

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Speaker 1: chromosome and the testosterone just goes through the mother's womb

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Speaker 1: and you've got a boy brain. You've got a boy.

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Speaker 1: You've got outdoor plumbing on the boy, right as opposed

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Speaker 1: to the indoor plumbing on a female. And what happens

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Speaker 1: then is the testosterone courses through him while he is

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Speaker 1: in the womb, and that's what makes him. Testosterone is,

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Speaker 1: as Carol Hooven from Harvard says, it's the hormone that

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Speaker 1: dominates and divides us. It's fascinating. There's another testosterone boost

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Speaker 1: shortly after birth. Okay, it lasts for the first handful

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Speaker 1: of months post birth, maybe up to six months. And

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Speaker 1: then there's another huge testosterone boost around about puberty, where

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Speaker 1: boy's testosterone goes up twenty times maybe thirty times over

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Speaker 1: what girls have. I mean, it's enormous. And around this

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Speaker 1: same period.

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Speaker 2: Are you so hairy?

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Speaker 1: That's part of it. That's why my voice is so deep,

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Speaker 1: so I'm so manly. It's because of the testosterone boost

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Speaker 1: at puberty. But there's something else that happens. Two kinds

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Speaker 1: of empathy. There's what's known as cognitive empathy and another

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Speaker 1: empathy called affective empathy. Cognitive empathy is when you say

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Speaker 1: to somebody, do you get how I feel? And they say,

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Speaker 1: I get it. I see, I understand, I get how

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Speaker 1: you feel. I can articulate you're feeling this and this

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Speaker 1: and this. That's cognitive empathy, the ability to understand in

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Speaker 1: your head how another person is feeling. And then there's

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Speaker 1: affective empathy, which is are you feeling what I'm feeling.

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Speaker 1: It's when it's when I'm watching Bruce Willis and Ben

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Speaker 1: Affleck on the asteroid meteor in Armageddon to save the world,

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Speaker 1: and Willis throws Athleic back into the space shuttle and says,

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Speaker 1: you go and marry my daughter. I'm going to stay

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Speaker 1: here and block the asteroid and save the world. I'm

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Speaker 1: here and everyone's crying, and I'm going, oh my goodness.

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Speaker 1: And now that's affective empathy, when I'm feeling in my

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Speaker 1: heart what you're feeling in yours. The data shows that

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Speaker 1: when it comes to girls, they see a steady increase

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Speaker 1: in both those kinds of empathy throughout their life and

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Speaker 1: even through those puberty years. Okay, they become increasingly able

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Speaker 1: to understand and feel what other people are feeling. For boys, though,

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Speaker 1: it's the opposite. The testosterone boost goes and empathy plummets.

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Speaker 1: It goes down, which means that when you say to

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Speaker 1: your teenage son, don't you understand how that makes your

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Speaker 1: brother feel? No, he goes muh, and you say, but

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Speaker 1: can't you feel that? And he goes muh, and he'll

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Speaker 1: sometimes him say I don't care. No. Again, genetics and

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Speaker 1: biology are not destiny. We can teach empathy, and boys can.

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Speaker 1: If they're raised in the right environment, with the right circumstances,

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Speaker 1: they can elevate their empathy. But there is a decline.

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Speaker 1: So when you say to them, don't they think about

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Speaker 1: how the girl must feel? The reality is, unfortunately that

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Speaker 1: the majority of them don't. They're just thinking, she's going

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Speaker 1: to look so hot when I do this, And I'm

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Speaker 1: going to get so much status from the boys. You're

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Speaker 1: the boys. Hey, bro, I'm going to get so much

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Speaker 1: status from the boys when I showed them what I

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Speaker 1: did because I'm so clever on my computer with my

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Speaker 1: dad's credit card.

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Speaker 2: So this might be completely hijacking the conversation, but.

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Speaker 1: You already have. I've got all these notes and we

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Speaker 1: haven't touched them yet.

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Speaker 2: The acronym SNAG sensitive new age guy was a big

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Speaker 2: thing when nineties, when I was a kid. Yes, and

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Speaker 2: I'm thinking about everything that you're talking to me about

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Speaker 2: and marrying that up with my experience with a handful

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Speaker 2: of boys who I had really close relationships with and

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Speaker 2: I felt were very empathetic. How does that wigh up

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Speaker 2: in this conversation.

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Speaker 1: There are two things here. Number one, we're talking about averages.

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Speaker 1: Nobody is actually average. Everybody falls somewhere around the average.

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Speaker 1: But if you've got a bunch of dimensions, like dimensions

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Speaker 1: of masculinity, for example, you're never going to get a

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Speaker 1: boy who is completely average on the all of those

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Speaker 1: interseix we sort of spread out across that. So you

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Speaker 1: get some really blokey blokes, and you also get some

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Speaker 1: really I'm going to use a term that some people

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Speaker 1: will be uncomfortable with, but you get some really effeminate blokes. Okay,

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Speaker 1: And that doesn't mean that they're not men or that

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Speaker 1: they're less manly men. It just means that they carry

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Speaker 1: their masculinity differently. They're more comfortable potentially in themselves.

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Speaker 2: Well, how much is that as nurtural or nature.

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Speaker 1: Or it's nature and nurture. It really is both. Like

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Speaker 1: I said, though destiny is not in your biology. Recently,

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Speaker 1: I caught an aeroplane home after traveling to a regional

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Speaker 1: Queensland location and when I got on the plane, it

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Speaker 1: was full of miners blokes that were doing fly in

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Speaker 1: fly out, and number one, I was intimidated, But number two,

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Speaker 1: the way that they behaved in public, the way that

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Speaker 1: they spoke, the way that they I just was like,

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Speaker 1: they are the blokiest blokey blokes that I've ever bloked around.

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Speaker 1: I was so uncomfortable because I just thought, any one

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Speaker 1: of them, they don't do emotions, They don't do any

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Speaker 1: of the things that I feel really good about. And

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Speaker 1: so that you've got the averages. So you've got somebody

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Speaker 1: who's emotionally secure and happy to talk about that sort

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Speaker 1: of stuff at one end, and then you've got this

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Speaker 1: blokey bloke who would never mention an emotion at the

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Speaker 1: other end. And on average, where we're both sort of

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Speaker 1: somewhat emotional when we need to be, but we're not

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Speaker 1: even close to it. So your experience with some boys,

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Speaker 1: there's one more thing here. When that boy is one

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Speaker 1: on one with somebody, when he's having contact with that person,

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Speaker 1: he's much more likely to be human, to be much

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Speaker 1: more sensitive to him, a much more kind And.

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Speaker 2: So it goes back to that comment you made that

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Speaker 2: their IQ of a bunch of boys, right, doesn't come

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Speaker 2: close to the IQ of one boy.

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Speaker 1: Correct. Yeah, Okay, So after the break, let's talk about

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Speaker 1: what to do if your son or daughter is involved

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Speaker 1: in this, and just a couple of general discussion points

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Speaker 1: for parents so that you can talk to your kids

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Speaker 1: about it even if they're not involved. Okay, Kylie, a

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Speaker 1: couple of things to discuss. First off, some discussion points

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Speaker 1: for parents when it comes to what we're talking about here.

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Speaker 1: The first thing that I want to mention is this,

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Speaker 1: if you want to talk to your kids about it,

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Speaker 1: and I recommend that you do this Sunday morning, sit

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Speaker 1: down and say, hey, there was this news story we

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Speaker 1: heard about. You might even discuss it with them and

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Speaker 1: ask them what they know about it? Have they heard

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Speaker 1: of it happening? How would they respond? What's the discussion

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Speaker 1: in the school. Do you think that this sort of

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Speaker 1: thing's happening that in and of itself is going to

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Speaker 1: be useful Whether you've got sons or daughters, just start

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Speaker 1: off the conversation, But I'd want to say something like this.

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Speaker 1: I would want to say that the accessibility and the

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Speaker 1: misuse of AI and technology generally pecifically AI among teens

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Speaker 1: is creating new forms of harassment, new forms of bullying

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Speaker 1: that most people aren't aware of, and most people don't

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Speaker 1: know what to do with. And so I'd be having

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Speaker 1: a chat with my kids about what photos they've got available,

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Speaker 1: where the photos are, and what the likelihood is that

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Speaker 1: anything that they've shared could make them a target. Bearing

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Speaker 1: in mind, but this is not on our kids if

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Speaker 1: they're victims, Okay, this is not about victim blaming, but

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Speaker 1: this is about trying to minimize the risk that they

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Speaker 1: may end up being one.

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Speaker 2: I know, based on this particular story, it's not safe

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Speaker 2: to share anything. They literally used yearbook photo.

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Speaker 1: I know. I recognize that what I'm saying could sound like,

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Speaker 1: well what was she wearing? That's not what I'm getting at.

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Speaker 1: But rather, who's got access to your content? What can

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Speaker 1: you do to lock it down? In this situation, based

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Speaker 1: on what we know from the news stories, there's nothing

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Speaker 1: you can do. This is a yearbook photo, so well,

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Speaker 1: and on.

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Speaker 2: Top of that, it was kids she knew, so it's

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Speaker 2: not even like it's a friend of a friend of

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Speaker 2: a friend. These are kids that she goes to school with.

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Speaker 1: So that's the least important of all the things that

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Speaker 1: I'm going to share. But I guess what I'm trying

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Speaker 1: to do is help kids to be less likely to

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Speaker 1: be both perpetrators and victims. Second thing, I think we've

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Speaker 1: got to talk to our kids, especially our boys but

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Speaker 1: also our girls, about the psychological impact on victims, how

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Speaker 1: severe it can be because these images, once they are

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Speaker 1: spread online and it happens very very fast, these people

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Speaker 1: feel traumatized, they feel violated, even though the images aren't real.

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Speaker 1: And for parents, we need to remember as well that

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Speaker 1: the fake images being spread is not going to diminish

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Speaker 1: any emotional or trauma or social consequences. Like the kid's

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Speaker 1: going to be really affected by this, So having the

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Speaker 1: open conversation matters. I reckon that we should talk to

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Speaker 1: our kids about whether or not they should or should

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Speaker 1: not be on social media. I think that should be

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Speaker 1: on the table as a discussion point. As you just said, though,

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Speaker 1: this is something that wasn't even on social media, like

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Speaker 1: these are yearbook photos, so there's limited value in doing that.

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Speaker 1: I just think we've got to review digital safety, have

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Speaker 1: open conversations, and make sure the kids know that they've

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Speaker 1: got someone to turn to if they either witness it

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Speaker 1: or become a victim.

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Speaker 2: You hear a story like this and you just want

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Speaker 2: to bubble out your kids up, don't you?

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Speaker 1: Goodness unbelievable. We are way out of time, But can

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Speaker 1: I just share a couple of things to do if

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Speaker 1: you find out that your son's done something like this.

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Speaker 2: I think we really need to talk about it.

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Speaker 1: All right, Just three action steps for parents if you're

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Speaker 1: worried about it being your boy. First off, don't dismiss

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Speaker 1: this as just a prank, just kids boys being boys. Please,

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Speaker 1: Just that is in twenty twenty five. That is not

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Speaker 1: an acceptable response. If you do that, you're doing a

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Speaker 1: disservice to everyone who's a victim. But you're also doing

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Speaker 1: a disservice to your son. Yeah, it's just not okay.

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Speaker 1: So take immediate action, don't dismiss it, take their technology away.

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Speaker 1: I'm not big on being punitive, but in something like this,

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Speaker 1: you take the tech off them and just say, mate,

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Speaker 1: you can't touch this until we've got this out. I

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Speaker 1: would also say this, law enforcement are going to find

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Speaker 1: out about it. School authorities are going to find out

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Speaker 1: about it. It's all but guaranteed. Cooperate, don't try to

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Speaker 1: minimize it, don't try to pretend, oh, he was only

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Speaker 1: doing it because just own it and get professional help. Okay,

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Speaker 1: that's the immediate action that you take. Beyond that, I

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Speaker 1: think that there's got to be it's got to be

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Speaker 1: addressed head on. This would be my second key point.

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Speaker 1: Address it head on. Talk about the heart of the victims.

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Speaker 1: This is where the focus on empathy has to come in.

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Speaker 1: Even if it's not biologically normal for boys to be

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Speaker 1: focused on empathy. This is where you help them to

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Speaker 1: understand how the victims and the families feel and talk

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Speaker 1: about the long term consequences, the legal ramifications, the digital footprint,

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Speaker 1: the impact on their future, the impact on the future

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Speaker 1: of the girls who have been involved. And I think

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Speaker 1: you've got to explore where to come from. Was this

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Speaker 1: pressure from the boys, like do they understand the severity?

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Speaker 1: And lastly, You've got to create a pathway forward because

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Speaker 1: while this is reprehensible behavior that crosses so many bright lines,

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Speaker 1: boys need to know that there is always a way back.

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Speaker 1: But the way back is through ownership, it's through accountability,

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Speaker 1: it's through responsibility, it's through learning to be a better boy.

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Speaker 1: As a result of this experience, you can help him

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Speaker 1: to move on in a positive way from a very

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Speaker 1: very bad situation.

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Speaker 2: We just we have to have these conversations in spite

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Speaker 2: of how challenging they are. It's so imperative for us

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Speaker 2: to help our kids recognize the ramifications of their actions

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Speaker 2: and help them to be hopeful about the future.

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Speaker 1: Heavy content, heavy discussion, so important as technology becomes increasingly

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Speaker 1: tricky to navigate. Thank you so much for listening. We

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Speaker 1: welcome your feedback podcasts at happy families dot com dot

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Speaker 1: I you. The Happy Families podcast is produced by Justin

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Speaker 1: Roulant from Bridge Media. More information and more resources are

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Speaker 1: available at the e Safety website e safety dot gov

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Speaker 1: dot au or Happy families dot com dot AU.