WEBVTT - No Justice, No Peace! 0:00:01.600 --> 0:00:01.760 Good. 0:00:03.040 --> 0:00:06.440 Just before nine o'clock last night, the jury returned guilty 0:00:06.559 --> 0:00:10.440 verdicts against all three defendants. It was absolutely shambles, to 0:00:10.480 --> 0:00:12.800 tell you the truth, just absolutely really having. 0:00:12.640 --> 0:00:15.080 Blood on his clothing the day after the alleged a. 0:00:15.120 --> 0:00:16.960 Top on a shallow mud bank and it fits through 0:00:17.000 --> 0:00:17.320 a river. 0:00:17.440 --> 0:00:19.520 Basically, I think most of the people are used to 0:00:19.560 --> 0:00:20.960 me are good people. 0:00:21.000 --> 0:00:23.640 I think a really important question we need to ask 0:00:23.840 --> 0:00:26.720 is how many Indigenous prisoners in Australia are innocent. 0:00:27.640 --> 0:00:30.240 This is Curtain, a podcast where we pulled back the 0:00:30.280 --> 0:00:32.800 blinds to shine a light on the darkest parts of 0:00:32.840 --> 0:00:36.600 our justice system and ask who are the victims. I'm 0:00:36.640 --> 0:00:39.200 Amy Maguire and I'm. 0:00:39.080 --> 0:00:43.400 Martin Hodgson, a senior advocate for the Foreign Prisoner Support Service. 0:00:43.760 --> 0:00:47.520 And a warning, this series contains the names of deceased 0:00:47.560 --> 0:00:52.560 peoples and has distressing content that might upset some listeners. 0:00:54.280 --> 0:00:59.000 Welcome to Curtain the podcast. Over the last few weeks, 0:00:59.040 --> 0:01:03.000 the issue of po shooting and murdering Aboriginal people is 0:01:03.080 --> 0:01:06.960 once again heavily in the media. This comes on the 0:01:07.000 --> 0:01:10.640 back of mister Russell, a gomroy man, being murdered by 0:01:10.720 --> 0:01:14.760 police in Sydney. The acquittal of a police officer for 0:01:14.840 --> 0:01:20.600 the murder of missus JC in Western Australia, and also 0:01:20.720 --> 0:01:26.400 the family protesting over the murder by police of Mark Mason, 0:01:27.200 --> 0:01:30.520 which my colleague Amy Maguire spoke about. So this week 0:01:30.560 --> 0:01:33.520 we're going to speak about all three and particularly the 0:01:33.600 --> 0:01:40.200 issues around police shootings and some of what happens in 0:01:40.319 --> 0:01:43.000 terms of the reporting and how people come to know 0:01:43.120 --> 0:01:47.039 and I say this in inverted commas the facts, because 0:01:48.000 --> 0:01:51.880 these facts tend to paint a narrative all too often 0:01:52.320 --> 0:01:57.080 that blames the person that's dead, the blackfellow, instead of 0:01:57.360 --> 0:02:00.920 ever blaming or questioning the actions of police. And this 0:02:01.040 --> 0:02:05.080 is why five hundred deaths in custody can occur and 0:02:05.120 --> 0:02:09.200 there's never a conviction. So to begin with, we're going 0:02:09.240 --> 0:02:12.000 to talk about what happened in the trial of a 0:02:12.040 --> 0:02:15.919 police officer who was charged with the murder of JC 0:02:16.320 --> 0:02:21.639 in Western Australia. And Amy, I just wondered about when 0:02:21.720 --> 0:02:26.400 you heard the verdict, what were your initial thoughts. 0:02:26.919 --> 0:02:30.760 Yeah, I mean, I think one of the tragic things 0:02:30.880 --> 0:02:36.400 is that I don't think the trial for JC was 0:02:36.440 --> 0:02:38.440 followed in the way it should have been by the 0:02:38.560 --> 0:02:42.480 national media. I know, obviously in Western Australia media were 0:02:42.520 --> 0:02:45.359 following it. But when you have a situation where there's 0:02:45.360 --> 0:02:48.360 an Aboriginal woman being shot by a cop and that 0:02:48.440 --> 0:02:53.840 there's this really historic thing that's occurred where the police 0:02:53.840 --> 0:02:56.560 officer involved is actually charged with their murder, you would 0:02:56.600 --> 0:03:00.440 expect much more attention being paid, particularly, you know, less 0:03:00.639 --> 0:03:05.079 a year or two after Black Lives Matter protests in 0:03:05.120 --> 0:03:07.560 twenty twenty, I should say a year after. So it 0:03:07.639 --> 0:03:09.679 was really disheartening for me to see that there was 0:03:09.720 --> 0:03:12.079 that lack of focus on the trial. And I think 0:03:12.120 --> 0:03:14.560 that has to do as well with the silencing the 0:03:14.600 --> 0:03:17.880 family that comes with court cases and the justice system 0:03:17.960 --> 0:03:21.960 and their proceedures and protocols. But I remember I was 0:03:22.000 --> 0:03:26.000 speaking to people who had been at the trial pretty 0:03:26.080 --> 0:03:27.960 much every day on the day of the verdict, and 0:03:28.040 --> 0:03:31.200 it seemed, you know, that the decision could go ive 0:03:31.240 --> 0:03:35.400 a way, and so to hear that the man had 0:03:35.440 --> 0:03:39.360 walked free on charges of murder, the police officer who 0:03:39.360 --> 0:03:44.040 shot and killed Aboriginal women JC and Geraldton was just 0:03:44.160 --> 0:03:48.040 really heartbreaking because we've seen it so many times before, 0:03:48.120 --> 0:03:50.000 and I think the lack of focus and the lack 0:03:50.040 --> 0:03:53.560 of attention from the media has really played a part 0:03:53.600 --> 0:03:56.400 in that. And I should note that I did an 0:03:56.480 --> 0:04:00.480 article on my independent media site, Presence on so Stack 0:04:02.160 --> 0:04:05.440 a few days after that verdict, and I was actually 0:04:05.840 --> 0:04:08.320 meaning to write another piece or publish another piece in 0:04:08.320 --> 0:04:11.200 that very same day, and it was on another police 0:04:11.200 --> 0:04:14.280 shooting of an Aboriginal man in Colorado, Brie in New 0:04:14.280 --> 0:04:18.160 South Wales in twenty ten, Mark Mason Senior. And to 0:04:18.200 --> 0:04:21.440 this day there has never even been, you know, charges laid. 0:04:21.440 --> 0:04:24.800 The coronial inquest was largely just a matter of police 0:04:24.839 --> 0:04:28.000 protocol and was set about legitimating police use of force. 0:04:28.400 --> 0:04:30.599 And so we had these two cases, you know, a 0:04:30.680 --> 0:04:33.640 decade apart or nearly a decade apart, and yet in 0:04:33.640 --> 0:04:37.800 both cases, despite their differences, there was no justice. And 0:04:37.839 --> 0:04:40.320 I think that says so much about what's currently happening 0:04:40.480 --> 0:04:43.200 in this country, but particularly where you have such an 0:04:43.200 --> 0:04:47.240 obvious case of police brutality, police violence, the way Aboriginal 0:04:47.240 --> 0:04:51.560 people are shot in public space, you know, in these communities, 0:04:51.880 --> 0:04:57.159 the fact that there isn't this outrage directed towards it. 0:04:57.160 --> 0:04:59.680 It's just very telling of the way a Showia still 0:04:59.760 --> 0:05:03.080 viewed black lives, but particularly black lives that are seen 0:05:03.120 --> 0:05:04.960 as criminals through the justice system. 0:05:07.240 --> 0:05:09.920 Yeah, and I was just reflecting as you were talking too, 0:05:10.360 --> 0:05:15.960 about the lack of humanity afforded to the Aboriginal victims 0:05:16.000 --> 0:05:20.280 of this police violence and the disparity in the coverage 0:05:20.320 --> 0:05:25.840 when you consider that thousands of articles and radio time 0:05:25.920 --> 0:05:31.400 and TV space in Australia has been dedicated to what 0:05:31.560 --> 0:05:37.719 happened to African American people like George Floyd, Filando Castiel 0:05:38.440 --> 0:05:41.039 and even going back to Trayvon Martin. You know, it's 0:05:41.120 --> 0:05:44.479 discussed on the seven thirty Report and Q and A 0:05:44.920 --> 0:05:49.640 and even Sky News talks about these cases. And yet 0:05:50.360 --> 0:05:54.159 the murder of the twenty nine year old Umatchi woman 0:05:54.480 --> 0:05:57.640 from Western Australia JC, I mean, it really got no 0:05:57.800 --> 0:06:01.880 coverage from the beginning, and there seems is real unwillingness 0:06:01.880 --> 0:06:07.359 from the Australian media to have any accountability in the 0:06:07.800 --> 0:06:11.599 terms of analyzing what's going on or even just giving 0:06:11.680 --> 0:06:16.159 some basic humanity to the indiview joined to their families. 0:06:16.240 --> 0:06:19.640 I mean, you see, George Floyd's family has been all 0:06:19.680 --> 0:06:24.960 over the international media, and Aboriginal victims just never get that. 0:06:25.560 --> 0:06:29.600 And I mean, you're a journalist, why do you think 0:06:29.680 --> 0:06:32.760 that continues to happen in Australian newsrooms. 0:06:34.400 --> 0:06:36.279 Yeah, I mean, I think, particularly when we see the 0:06:36.320 --> 0:06:39.520 case of JC, is that very early on, even in 0:06:39.640 --> 0:06:43.680 media reportage and suppose a good journalism, you know, journalism 0:06:43.720 --> 0:06:48.800 by you know, typical journalistic standards, they still painted her 0:06:48.960 --> 0:06:51.279 in the same way that the criminal justice system was 0:06:51.320 --> 0:06:54.360 painting her. You know, So she was her criminal history 0:06:55.080 --> 0:06:58.200 as told by the white justice system, was basically just 0:06:58.760 --> 0:07:03.799 regurgitated by media who were doing what is considered good jobs, 0:07:03.960 --> 0:07:05.360 you know what I mean. So I think it comes 0:07:05.400 --> 0:07:07.800 down to the way journalism is actually practice and how 0:07:08.000 --> 0:07:12.640 often it works against Aboriginal people. So they're really privileging 0:07:13.120 --> 0:07:16.680 the accounts of the criminal justice system of JC, even 0:07:16.720 --> 0:07:18.800 before she died, or even before she was in the 0:07:18.800 --> 0:07:23.640 sights of the justice system, even before she was killed 0:07:23.640 --> 0:07:25.720 on that street in Geraldton. And I think it was 0:07:25.760 --> 0:07:30.440 a point that was really pertinently made by Professor Meghan 0:07:30.560 --> 0:07:33.200 Davis on Twitter on the same day that the vertical 0:07:33.200 --> 0:07:36.680 was handed down, and she basically said, you know, this 0:07:36.760 --> 0:07:39.520 is what occurred in Jac's case. They forensically raped over 0:07:39.600 --> 0:07:42.480 her criminal record. It was long, and despite her mental health, 0:07:42.520 --> 0:07:44.640 the defense lawyer painted her as more of a lethal 0:07:44.760 --> 0:07:47.480 threat than the constable who took her life. The system 0:07:47.720 --> 0:07:50.000 isn't some abstract thing. And I think that said it 0:07:50.480 --> 0:07:53.400 so much in a nutshell that you know, despite all 0:07:53.400 --> 0:07:55.680 the violence that have been perpetrated against her and that 0:07:55.720 --> 0:07:58.760 she was struggling with, she was seen as violent, and 0:07:58.840 --> 0:08:01.000 she was seen as the threat. And I think the 0:08:01.040 --> 0:08:03.040 other thing is, you know, you mentioned George Floyd, and 0:08:03.080 --> 0:08:05.640 I know we've talked about it before. You know, we 0:08:05.680 --> 0:08:07.800 saw the video footage straight away, and that's what led 0:08:07.840 --> 0:08:11.360 to waves of international outrage, you know, seeing George Floyd 0:08:11.440 --> 0:08:15.240 being murdered on camera. Now with jay Z's case, after 0:08:15.400 --> 0:08:20.720 the verdict was handed down, the CCTV footage of Jac's 0:08:20.840 --> 0:08:23.920 death that day was released to the public, and we 0:08:24.040 --> 0:08:27.040 see a complete disparity in that footage and the way 0:08:27.080 --> 0:08:29.560 she is described and the way the police are described. 0:08:29.920 --> 0:08:32.080 So what I saw in that footage when I watched 0:08:32.120 --> 0:08:35.000 it was she's walking along the street. You know, police 0:08:35.040 --> 0:08:39.559 officers pull up, pull up behind her. She's you can 0:08:39.600 --> 0:08:41.839 tell she's for me. She's not a threat at all. 0:08:41.880 --> 0:08:44.160 You know, she's obviously very mentally young well, and she 0:08:44.200 --> 0:08:47.040 needs support. The first police officer who was going to 0:08:47.360 --> 0:08:49.760 was unarmed, and he actually knew her, he'd helped her 0:08:49.800 --> 0:08:52.440 ten days before, and he had he said that he 0:08:52.480 --> 0:08:54.280 did not think she was a threat. That's why he 0:08:54.320 --> 0:08:57.320 didn't have his weapon. Within I think a very short 0:08:57.360 --> 0:09:00.240 period of time, less than twenty seconds, another police that 0:09:00.280 --> 0:09:02.559 has come over with her gun and has shot her, 0:09:02.600 --> 0:09:05.679 and she's slumped down. And what you know, you hear 0:09:05.720 --> 0:09:07.560 in the media or in the court was actually lunged 0:09:07.640 --> 0:09:10.720 or she wasn't walking, She hadn't stopped walking, she hadn't 0:09:10.720 --> 0:09:13.680 stopped moving her feet. You see the video footage actually 0:09:13.720 --> 0:09:17.160 contradicting that very same account, and yet it wasn't believed. 0:09:17.760 --> 0:09:21.480 You know, they you know, Aboriginal women are not believed 0:09:21.520 --> 0:09:25.400 even when it's on it's court on camera, and so 0:09:25.440 --> 0:09:27.560 I think that raises a whole host of issues about 0:09:27.559 --> 0:09:31.360 the way also Aboriginal women as victims, particularly when police 0:09:31.400 --> 0:09:35.400 are perpetrators, are seen by non Indigenous juries. What did 0:09:35.440 --> 0:09:37.040 you have to say about that mat and when you 0:09:37.080 --> 0:09:40.000 saw the video footage after it was released, knowing that 0:09:40.040 --> 0:09:42.440 there were these other accounts of the last moments of 0:09:42.800 --> 0:09:44.680 Jc's life. 0:09:45.640 --> 0:09:50.280 Yeah, I mean, I think for me, watching these types 0:09:50.320 --> 0:09:54.120 of CCTV footage for the best part of twenty years. 0:09:54.160 --> 0:09:58.560 In so many cases, my mind always goes back to 0:10:00.120 --> 0:10:03.800 the basic issue of how does someone like Martin Bryant, 0:10:04.400 --> 0:10:08.720 who had murdered thirty five people, injured another twenty three, 0:10:09.440 --> 0:10:14.200 had gone on this huge rampage, had to shoot out 0:10:14.240 --> 0:10:19.320 with the police armed with an AR fifteen assault rifle, 0:10:19.360 --> 0:10:22.200 which we've all come to know from all of these 0:10:22.240 --> 0:10:26.120 shootings in schools in America, and yet he is taken 0:10:26.120 --> 0:10:30.800 into custody without injury. And we've seen it time and 0:10:30.840 --> 0:10:34.720 time again, whether it be raids on bikes and shootouts 0:10:34.800 --> 0:10:41.000 and all other types of people. And yet JC had 0:10:41.000 --> 0:10:46.240 done nothing wrong, is walking down the street and she's shot, 0:10:47.400 --> 0:10:52.720 and she's painted as violent and a threat. So to me, 0:10:53.640 --> 0:10:59.760 it just never computes that someone who has massacred dozens 0:10:59.800 --> 0:11:04.200 of people can be taken safely into custody, but these 0:11:04.240 --> 0:11:09.040 same police somehow crap themselves and have to shoot when 0:11:09.160 --> 0:11:14.200 it's an Aboriginal woman. And I guess this is a 0:11:14.240 --> 0:11:17.120 good way of introducing something that we've spoken about a 0:11:17.120 --> 0:11:21.800 lot before, which is, to me, the criminalization of the 0:11:21.800 --> 0:11:26.400 public displays of symptoms of mental illness. And the way 0:11:26.440 --> 0:11:31.000 I would explain it is that if someone had an 0:11:31.040 --> 0:11:34.640 epileptic fit in front of the police and they shot them. 0:11:35.040 --> 0:11:37.679 We would be outraged. If someone had a heart attack 0:11:38.559 --> 0:11:42.320 as a result of coronary heart disease and the police 0:11:42.360 --> 0:11:46.199 shot them. We'd be outraged. If someone was suffering leukemia 0:11:46.320 --> 0:11:50.240 and displayed a symptom of that, perhaps a bloody nose, 0:11:50.880 --> 0:11:55.560 we would be outraged. And yet all JC did was 0:11:55.640 --> 0:12:01.440 display publicly symptoms of her mental illness, in any other illness, 0:12:02.400 --> 0:12:06.320 why is that still okay to be deemed as a 0:12:06.360 --> 0:12:10.480 threat displaying a symptom of your illness something that was 0:12:10.720 --> 0:12:13.920 very well known, as you said, to police, so much 0:12:13.960 --> 0:12:17.840 so that another police officer, a more senior police officer 0:12:18.360 --> 0:12:21.800 who was there on the scene, knew that and was 0:12:21.840 --> 0:12:25.760 trying to calm the situation and said on the stand 0:12:25.880 --> 0:12:29.160 himself that he didn't feel that Joyce was a threat, 0:12:29.559 --> 0:12:32.440 and he was the one standing closest to her. And 0:12:32.520 --> 0:12:35.960 yet the officer who pulled the trigger arrived on the 0:12:36.000 --> 0:12:41.200 scene and within sixteen seconds JC was dead as a 0:12:41.240 --> 0:12:45.760 result of his actions. Now, I just don't know how 0:12:45.920 --> 0:12:50.199 someone can a police officer, can do that and not 0:12:50.280 --> 0:12:54.120 be punished. I mean, I honestly believe that had that 0:12:54.480 --> 0:13:00.320 same action been committed same violence been committed against Martin Bryant. 0:13:00.400 --> 0:13:03.800 That cop would be in deep trouble if they just 0:13:03.920 --> 0:13:06.800 turned up and pulled the trigger, shooting past their own 0:13:06.840 --> 0:13:10.360 colleagues at someone. And that was when you have someone 0:13:10.400 --> 0:13:14.680 who had murdered dozens of people, was armed with an 0:13:14.720 --> 0:13:18.760 assault rifle and was shooting at police, none of which 0:13:19.200 --> 0:13:23.319 JC had done. She'd done nothing wrong but walk down 0:13:23.400 --> 0:13:29.079 the street and display a symptom of her illness. And 0:13:29.120 --> 0:13:34.120 we're often called hysterical and angry and all these things 0:13:34.160 --> 0:13:36.559 when we raised this issue, Well, what else should you 0:13:36.679 --> 0:13:40.679 be if you can receive a death sentence for being 0:13:40.720 --> 0:13:43.800 an Aboriginal woman who displays a symptom of their illness, 0:13:43.840 --> 0:13:46.640 And this is something we have to come to terms 0:13:46.679 --> 0:13:51.160 with as a country. Or there is really no point 0:13:51.840 --> 0:13:55.040 mentioning how many black deaths in custody there have been 0:13:55.880 --> 0:13:59.160 for the broad media to mention that or anyone else, 0:13:59.200 --> 0:14:02.000 because if you can do that, if you can kill 0:14:02.080 --> 0:14:04.520 JC in the manner in which the police did, then 0:14:04.600 --> 0:14:07.640 number is just going to continue to climb and there's 0:14:07.640 --> 0:14:11.200 no way around that. So I think there was also 0:14:11.280 --> 0:14:16.840 again this lack of any real responsibility taken by the 0:14:16.880 --> 0:14:22.040 media any humanity, any decency, any morality. I mean, forget 0:14:22.160 --> 0:14:27.200 calling themselves the fourth estate, when rather than explore these 0:14:27.280 --> 0:14:31.600 issues of the way we criminalize those who are mentally unwell, 0:14:33.280 --> 0:14:38.120 they instead focused on things like a criminal history, which 0:14:38.200 --> 0:14:42.920 I should say are largely inadmissible in a court of law, 0:14:43.480 --> 0:14:48.000 and yet were introduced by the media and taint the 0:14:48.080 --> 0:14:52.320 jury pull en mass as they do with any time 0:14:52.600 --> 0:14:56.000 an Aboriginal person is killed by police, as we saw 0:14:56.200 --> 0:14:59.320 in Sydney with the murder of an Aboriginal man, the 0:14:59.440 --> 0:15:03.720 first thing the police mentioned is the criminal record. Well, 0:15:03.760 --> 0:15:07.560 in court, unless it's relevant, it can't be raised. And 0:15:07.640 --> 0:15:12.880 yet juries are reading article after article, watching program after 0:15:12.960 --> 0:15:16.640 program for months before they ever find out they've been 0:15:16.680 --> 0:15:19.720 called up for jury duty, and they've heard all of 0:15:19.760 --> 0:15:25.040 this prejudice nonsense, and you know it's no wonder, and 0:15:25.200 --> 0:15:28.880 it's just you watch the CCTV and you see that 0:15:29.200 --> 0:15:32.360 people claimed that JC lunged at police. She didn't know 0:15:32.520 --> 0:15:35.760 such thing. I mean for a witness to be able 0:15:35.840 --> 0:15:37.800 to go on the stand and say that when it's 0:15:37.880 --> 0:15:41.760 obvious to everyone, when even the most senior officer on 0:15:41.800 --> 0:15:44.920 the scene, who knew JC the best, who was the 0:15:44.920 --> 0:15:48.320 one standing in front of her said she did no 0:15:48.480 --> 0:15:52.360 such thing. That witnesses are allowed to just blatantly lie. 0:15:53.200 --> 0:15:58.400 And you know, again, it really troubles me that Australia 0:15:58.480 --> 0:16:01.720 as a country, and media as a whole in Australia 0:16:01.800 --> 0:16:05.720 can feel a great deal of sympathy watching what happened 0:16:05.720 --> 0:16:11.040 to George Floyd and feel troubled enough and guilty enough 0:16:11.080 --> 0:16:13.200 to want to write about it and talk about it 0:16:13.320 --> 0:16:17.640 and do all those things, and yet feel nothing for 0:16:17.800 --> 0:16:21.240 an Aboriginal woman who had the same thing done to 0:16:21.320 --> 0:16:25.200 her in the country in which they live, on her land. 0:16:26.000 --> 0:16:29.960 And to me, it's just there's this sick lack of 0:16:30.040 --> 0:16:38.440 humanity that continues to live inside most Australians. And it's 0:16:38.480 --> 0:16:40.680 easy to point the finger at the justice system, but 0:16:40.720 --> 0:16:44.400 the justice system is run by people, whether they're the judges, 0:16:44.440 --> 0:16:47.000 the prosecutors, or the jury. And this again was an 0:16:47.040 --> 0:16:50.360 all white jury, and these are all things we're going 0:16:50.400 --> 0:16:52.720 to have to seriously grapple with. 0:16:55.320 --> 0:16:59.240 Yeah, I mean, I think particularly, you know, it doesn't 0:17:00.080 --> 0:17:03.080 the history in the criminal justice system does not affect 0:17:03.080 --> 0:17:06.560 police culpability whether they should or should not have pulled 0:17:06.600 --> 0:17:10.320 that trigger. So it was amazing to me to see that, 0:17:10.560 --> 0:17:12.160 you know, the only thing it does is to make 0:17:12.280 --> 0:17:15.320 JC look to be a criminal, which she wasn't, you know. 0:17:15.359 --> 0:17:17.679 And I think the other point to make is that 0:17:17.720 --> 0:17:21.720 Aboriginal women are ultimately, even as victims, seen as perpetrators. 0:17:22.119 --> 0:17:25.240 And you're totally right about the criminalization of those symptoms 0:17:25.440 --> 0:17:28.520 of mental illness or symptoms of trauma, because as you spoke, 0:17:28.560 --> 0:17:31.280 I also thought of another case in Western Australia around 0:17:31.280 --> 0:17:34.199 Baby Charlie. And for our listeners who may not know, 0:17:34.280 --> 0:17:37.320 Baby Charlie was a young not even one yet, little 0:17:37.359 --> 0:17:41.840 baby boy. Original baby boy and his mother had been 0:17:41.840 --> 0:17:44.119 the victim of an assault by her partner. At the 0:17:44.160 --> 0:17:47.840 time when the police turned up, she was actually displaying 0:17:47.840 --> 0:17:51.920 trauma symptoms. She'd just been assaulted by that partner. Instead 0:17:51.920 --> 0:17:54.919 of helping her and keeping baby Charlie safe, the police 0:17:55.000 --> 0:17:58.240 arrested the mother and baby Charlie ended up with that 0:17:58.480 --> 0:18:00.920 man who ultimately, and this is a really tragic case, 0:18:01.000 --> 0:18:05.600 ultimately killed him in a really horrendous way. And at 0:18:05.600 --> 0:18:07.879 that time, the mother and the grandfather we're trying to 0:18:07.920 --> 0:18:10.199 get help. We're trying to get help. The grandfather was 0:18:10.200 --> 0:18:12.800 going to police station and was being accused of being 0:18:12.840 --> 0:18:15.560 a drunken Aboriginal man, you know, which is another way 0:18:15.600 --> 0:18:19.160 that this racial violence, you know, operates, and that ultimately 0:18:19.240 --> 0:18:22.240 ended in the loss of baby Charlie. And there's been 0:18:22.280 --> 0:18:25.480 no justice over this case and no police accountability of 0:18:25.560 --> 0:18:28.159 this case. But if the police had understood and not 0:18:28.200 --> 0:18:32.680 criminalized the mother for displaying those symptoms of trauma, you know, 0:18:32.960 --> 0:18:36.359 the symptoms that she was displaying, then Baby Charlie would 0:18:36.680 --> 0:18:39.760 likely very well be still alive, you know. And I 0:18:39.800 --> 0:18:42.400 think that's that's the really tragic thing, is that people 0:18:42.480 --> 0:18:45.000 don't ask the right questions, and when it's been confirmed 0:18:45.040 --> 0:18:47.800 in court, you know, this man is seen to be innocent, 0:18:47.840 --> 0:18:51.080 this cop who killed jac even though he definitely killed her, 0:18:51.119 --> 0:18:53.040 and we have the footage to show that, we have 0:18:53.119 --> 0:18:55.480 the fact that jac is no longer here to show that, 0:18:56.080 --> 0:18:59.119 you know. I just feel like the right questions and 0:18:59.160 --> 0:19:02.120 the logics are just not put up, and they're seen 0:19:02.160 --> 0:19:06.040 as culpable for their own deaths, and sadly, in baby 0:19:06.080 --> 0:19:08.600 Charlie's case, were culpable for the deaths of their children. 0:19:09.080 --> 0:19:11.159 And I just think that's so outrageous. So it's not 0:19:11.240 --> 0:19:14.560 even just you know, JC walking along the street as 0:19:14.600 --> 0:19:16.960 a black woman. She was seen as inherently threatening, but 0:19:17.040 --> 0:19:20.760 she was seen as inherently threatening by displaying the symptoms 0:19:21.160 --> 0:19:23.720 that should have afforded her help. Not should have led 0:19:23.760 --> 0:19:27.320 to her death, Not should have led to wider police surveillance, 0:19:27.480 --> 0:19:30.920 wider police brutality. It should never have happened. And then 0:19:31.000 --> 0:19:34.159 that violence has been recompounded in the justice system and 0:19:34.240 --> 0:19:38.240 in the court trials where the families were effectively silenced. 0:19:38.240 --> 0:19:40.120 And when you know, it's supposed to be a two 0:19:40.240 --> 0:19:45.119 side situation, but really it's weighted in favor of the 0:19:45.119 --> 0:19:47.320 police officer, you know what I mean. 0:19:47.600 --> 0:19:50.520 Yeah, And I think what you said is a really 0:19:50.560 --> 0:19:53.159 important point to it that goes to the heart of 0:19:53.200 --> 0:19:57.240 all of the which is that j C should have 0:19:57.280 --> 0:20:01.120 been afforded help. And you spoke about Baby Charlie's mother, 0:20:01.400 --> 0:20:04.520 who should have been afforded help. You know, we've spoken 0:20:04.520 --> 0:20:07.840 about Miss Dew who should have been afforded help. We've 0:20:07.880 --> 0:20:11.359 spoken about Miss Wynn who should have been afforded help. 0:20:12.600 --> 0:20:17.639 These are all cases in Western Australia, and just recently 0:20:17.720 --> 0:20:20.880 we have seen the West Australian police treated as heroes 0:20:21.280 --> 0:20:25.560 because they afforded the help to little Cleo and found 0:20:25.600 --> 0:20:28.560 her and got her home to her family, which is 0:20:28.600 --> 0:20:33.080 what they are supposed to do, so they're clearly capable 0:20:33.080 --> 0:20:37.320 of it. And yet when they murder an Aboriginal woman, 0:20:37.840 --> 0:20:40.800 as you know, I just run through these cases that 0:20:40.840 --> 0:20:44.080 have happened in Western Australia in the same period of time, 0:20:45.000 --> 0:20:48.600 they're not even punished for it. You know, it's no 0:20:48.840 --> 0:20:54.119 different that someone who is vulnerable requiring help. Little Cleo 0:20:55.000 --> 0:20:58.240 she got it and thanked God that she did. But 0:20:58.320 --> 0:21:01.879 why can't JC get it? Why can't miss Win have 0:21:01.960 --> 0:21:04.600 got it? Why couldn't missed you have got it? Why 0:21:04.640 --> 0:21:07.840 couldn't Baby Charlie's mum have got it? You know, and 0:21:07.880 --> 0:21:10.639 these endless cases we could go on with, you know, 0:21:10.920 --> 0:21:15.240 staying in Western Australia, we previously spoke on this podcast 0:21:15.320 --> 0:21:19.439 about a mother who rang the police on behalf of 0:21:19.480 --> 0:21:24.400 her daughter who was experiencing domestic violence. And this mother 0:21:24.440 --> 0:21:27.720 who rang for help for her daughter was also a grandma. 0:21:28.240 --> 0:21:31.120 And when the police arrived, they didn't do anything about 0:21:31.160 --> 0:21:34.600 the man committing domestic violence. They took the grandmother away 0:21:35.359 --> 0:21:39.760 because she had unpaid fines relating to her dog. And 0:21:39.800 --> 0:21:43.199 that tells you all you need to know about the 0:21:43.200 --> 0:21:47.440 Western Australian Police Department that they are more concerned about 0:21:47.520 --> 0:21:50.480 fines relating to a dog than they are Aboriginal women 0:21:50.800 --> 0:21:56.119 because they are clearly capable of rendering help when it's required. 0:21:56.720 --> 0:22:00.199 We've just seen it with little clear they found there. 0:22:00.280 --> 0:22:04.640 She's home, thank God, and yet an Aboriginal woman can't 0:22:04.680 --> 0:22:08.520 even walk the street. And I think one of my 0:22:08.720 --> 0:22:14.040 takeaways from not just Jc's case, but listening to Amy 0:22:14.080 --> 0:22:17.960 speak on this podcast for the last five years, is 0:22:19.080 --> 0:22:23.480 imagine being an Aboriginal woman in this country, especially if 0:22:23.520 --> 0:22:28.679 you are dealing with trauma and grief, and you should 0:22:28.760 --> 0:22:35.040 happen to display a public symptom of that this country 0:22:35.119 --> 0:22:38.359 just said once again cops can shoot you for it 0:22:38.440 --> 0:22:42.359 and there's no punishment, and you wonder why that grief 0:22:42.400 --> 0:22:47.359 and trauma continues. I mean, it's hard to know where 0:22:47.400 --> 0:22:50.800 to go other than I think to heed the calls 0:22:51.119 --> 0:22:56.360 of what many abolitionists say. But I think what was 0:22:56.640 --> 0:23:01.200 also telling about that week was also was the daim 0:23:01.280 --> 0:23:04.880 He had written this piece about Mark Mason Sr. Who 0:23:04.920 --> 0:23:08.399 had also been murdered by the police, a Gomroy man. 0:23:08.840 --> 0:23:11.040 So Amy, I'm wondering if you can tell us more 0:23:11.160 --> 0:23:16.000 about Mark Mason Senior and his family's fight for the truth. 0:23:17.680 --> 0:23:19.479 Yeah, And as I said before, I was actually going 0:23:19.560 --> 0:23:22.080 to publish my piece on Mark Mason Senior on the 0:23:22.119 --> 0:23:26.080 same week that the cop who killed JC was acquitted. 0:23:26.920 --> 0:23:28.800 And the reason I was publishing it is because there 0:23:28.840 --> 0:23:31.840 was it had been eleven years, the eleventh year anniversary 0:23:32.160 --> 0:23:34.280 on November eleventh, So I was doing it in the 0:23:34.359 --> 0:23:37.439 lead up to there of Mark Mason Senior's death. So 0:23:37.600 --> 0:23:41.320 I spoke to the children of Mark Mason. So he 0:23:41.400 --> 0:23:45.159 had four children. And basically what had happened was in 0:23:45.160 --> 0:23:48.280 twenty ten in Colorinda by the police had chased him 0:23:48.280 --> 0:23:51.480 into a small house in Colorindo Brier and five police 0:23:51.520 --> 0:23:54.000 officers had cornered him in that house and one of 0:23:54.080 --> 0:23:58.479 them they tased him, they capsicum sprayed him, and then 0:23:58.520 --> 0:24:01.879 they shot him, not once but twice. And their claim 0:24:02.040 --> 0:24:04.600 was that they were under threat because he was holding 0:24:04.640 --> 0:24:07.800 a tire on him and he was someone who was 0:24:07.880 --> 0:24:12.800 in his forties. He didn't drink, he didn't smoke, he 0:24:12.920 --> 0:24:16.320 didn't have any sort of there was no reason for 0:24:16.359 --> 0:24:19.240 this intense police surveillance on him. And also he was 0:24:19.240 --> 0:24:22.240 in ill health. So when it happened, the family had 0:24:22.240 --> 0:24:25.280 to wait three years for a coronial inquest that ultimately 0:24:25.320 --> 0:24:27.280 cleared the police and said that their use of force 0:24:27.400 --> 0:24:31.600 was legitimate. But they didn't question raised the valid questions 0:24:31.600 --> 0:24:35.160 that the family had. You know, why was Mark Mason killed? 0:24:35.520 --> 0:24:38.240 Why was he such a threat? Why was he shot twice? 0:24:38.640 --> 0:24:41.800 Why was he capsicum sprayed? Why was he tasered? They 0:24:41.840 --> 0:24:45.480 wanted the right to question every every version of the 0:24:45.480 --> 0:24:48.640 police events. But from the very first moment that Mark 0:24:48.760 --> 0:24:51.200