1 00:00:04,160 --> 00:00:08,479 Speaker 1: Adam Alter is highly productive. He's a professor of marketing 2 00:00:08,520 --> 00:00:12,280 Speaker 1: at NYU's Stern School of Business. He's a best selling author, 3 00:00:12,600 --> 00:00:15,120 Speaker 1: and he's written for everyone from The New Yorker to 4 00:00:15,240 --> 00:00:19,599 Speaker 1: Wired to Psychology Today. So I was surprised to hear 5 00:00:20,200 --> 00:00:24,520 Speaker 1: just how simple his productivity system is. In fact, it's 6 00:00:24,520 --> 00:00:27,280 Speaker 1: barely a system. It's barely more than a handwritten to 7 00:00:27,360 --> 00:00:32,080 Speaker 1: do list. But that's completely on purpose. And in this chat, 8 00:00:32,080 --> 00:00:36,400 Speaker 1: Adam also shares his strategies for auditing his productivity and 9 00:00:36,479 --> 00:00:40,600 Speaker 1: his energy, and his approach to objectively documenting his own 10 00:00:40,640 --> 00:00:50,920 Speaker 1: life without spending an hour every day journaling. I'm doctor 11 00:00:50,960 --> 00:00:54,400 Speaker 1: Amantha Imber, an organizational psychologist and the host of How 12 00:00:54,520 --> 00:00:58,200 Speaker 1: I Work, and I'm trying something a little different for 13 00:00:58,280 --> 00:01:03,320 Speaker 1: the next few weeks. Is How I Live, a series 14 00:01:03,440 --> 00:01:07,560 Speaker 1: that gives you an inside look with some super accomplished 15 00:01:07,640 --> 00:01:13,080 Speaker 1: people's top strategies for living a happy, productive, and impactful life. 16 00:01:14,120 --> 00:01:17,680 Speaker 1: I'm always curious about what physical possessions have added the 17 00:01:17,680 --> 00:01:21,360 Speaker 1: most value to people's life, and that's exactly where my 18 00:01:21,480 --> 00:01:22,920 Speaker 1: chat with Adam starts. 19 00:01:23,720 --> 00:01:26,360 Speaker 2: I mean, I think for me, physical possessions are always 20 00:01:26,840 --> 00:01:30,280 Speaker 2: vehicles to some sort of state of mind or experience 21 00:01:30,360 --> 00:01:33,039 Speaker 2: that's important. Like I don't think I buy many things 22 00:01:33,040 --> 00:01:36,080 Speaker 2: for the sake of just having them. And so my 23 00:01:36,160 --> 00:01:39,160 Speaker 2: favorite pair of running shoes because I spend more time 24 00:01:39,240 --> 00:01:43,319 Speaker 2: awake running than probably in any other single activity. So 25 00:01:43,440 --> 00:01:45,920 Speaker 2: my favorite pair of running shoes has brought more joy 26 00:01:45,959 --> 00:01:49,320 Speaker 2: to me than I think any other single possession physical possession. 27 00:01:49,600 --> 00:01:51,640 Speaker 2: So I would say the fact that I've rebought maybe 28 00:01:51,680 --> 00:01:54,960 Speaker 2: ten pairs as an indication that that has been the 29 00:01:55,000 --> 00:01:59,520 Speaker 2: most valuable possession. Or looking at everything altogether, any. 30 00:01:59,400 --> 00:02:06,320 Speaker 1: Other busyical tools or apps that you found really beneficial 31 00:02:06,360 --> 00:02:08,120 Speaker 1: when it comes to running, because I remember the last 32 00:02:08,120 --> 00:02:10,200 Speaker 1: time we spoke, we did speak of it, about running 33 00:02:10,200 --> 00:02:11,920 Speaker 1: and your habits and rituals around that. 34 00:02:12,480 --> 00:02:16,040 Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, it's funny. You know. I'm known for being 35 00:02:16,120 --> 00:02:19,440 Speaker 2: critical of technology, and I think the place where I 36 00:02:19,560 --> 00:02:22,440 Speaker 2: depart from that view is when technology becomes an incredible 37 00:02:22,560 --> 00:02:24,920 Speaker 2: utility that makes it easier to do things that we 38 00:02:24,919 --> 00:02:27,120 Speaker 2: don't really want to have to do, or that makes 39 00:02:27,160 --> 00:02:30,680 Speaker 2: experiences better. So the classic example for me is Google Maps, 40 00:02:30,680 --> 00:02:34,080 Speaker 2: which I think is the greatest single technological invention forever. 41 00:02:34,560 --> 00:02:36,920 Speaker 2: It makes every experience better when you need to know 42 00:02:36,960 --> 00:02:39,200 Speaker 2: where you are and that's almost all the time, especially 43 00:02:39,240 --> 00:02:43,120 Speaker 2: in my life the way I live, so I think 44 00:02:43,240 --> 00:02:46,720 Speaker 2: for me, there are certain utilities on my watch. I 45 00:02:46,760 --> 00:02:49,280 Speaker 2: try not to pay much attention to it during the run, 46 00:02:49,880 --> 00:02:52,040 Speaker 2: but it's a watch that gives me a huge amount 47 00:02:52,040 --> 00:02:55,520 Speaker 2: of feedback about my bodily states, my sleep, and so 48 00:02:56,200 --> 00:02:59,320 Speaker 2: that has been another possession that for running, it has 49 00:02:59,360 --> 00:03:02,280 Speaker 2: been tremendous valuable because it tracks my fitness, which is great, 50 00:03:02,600 --> 00:03:05,800 Speaker 2: but it also I think has so many applications outside 51 00:03:05,840 --> 00:03:09,320 Speaker 2: of running that it's been one of the best uses 52 00:03:09,360 --> 00:03:12,080 Speaker 2: of several hundred dollars, which is a you know, it's 53 00:03:12,080 --> 00:03:14,280 Speaker 2: a reasonable amount to pay for something, but I've been 54 00:03:14,360 --> 00:03:16,320 Speaker 2: very happy with the utility I've got from it. 55 00:03:16,600 --> 00:03:18,600 Speaker 1: And this is an Apple watch. 56 00:03:18,720 --> 00:03:21,760 Speaker 2: It's a garment. It's the four runner nine four five 57 00:03:21,880 --> 00:03:24,079 Speaker 2: I think I have. Yeah, it's the nine four five. 58 00:03:24,160 --> 00:03:26,959 Speaker 2: And it's when I'm not wearing it, I feel like 59 00:03:27,080 --> 00:03:29,240 Speaker 2: I'm unmoored. I don't know what's going on in my life, 60 00:03:29,280 --> 00:03:32,760 Speaker 2: which is probably a problem which speaks too irresistible the 61 00:03:32,760 --> 00:03:35,200 Speaker 2: book I wrote about how attached we ata technology, which 62 00:03:35,240 --> 00:03:37,080 Speaker 2: is certainly true of me in this context. 63 00:03:37,760 --> 00:03:39,920 Speaker 1: I'm very addicted to my Apple Watch. And I feel like, 64 00:03:39,960 --> 00:03:42,560 Speaker 1: when I'm not wearing it, if I'm stepping, Like if 65 00:03:42,560 --> 00:03:46,360 Speaker 1: I'm walking, I actually walking, do those steps count in 66 00:03:46,400 --> 00:03:49,080 Speaker 1: my life and towards my health? Which is ridiculous but. 67 00:03:49,120 --> 00:03:52,240 Speaker 2: Totally totally no. So I did a workout yesterday, like 68 00:03:52,280 --> 00:03:55,280 Speaker 2: a twenty minute workout. I have a small weight bench, 69 00:03:55,840 --> 00:03:57,920 Speaker 2: and I forgot to start it on my watch, and 70 00:03:57,960 --> 00:04:00,800 Speaker 2: I was like, should I just redo it so that 71 00:04:00,840 --> 00:04:03,400 Speaker 2: I can capture the data? Which is an absurd thing 72 00:04:03,400 --> 00:04:05,480 Speaker 2: to think after you've done a workout, But the fact 73 00:04:05,480 --> 00:04:07,640 Speaker 2: that even entered my mind shows you just how central 74 00:04:07,680 --> 00:04:09,200 Speaker 2: this is to the way I operate. 75 00:04:09,560 --> 00:04:13,600 Speaker 1: It does. Now, what's your favorite time saving hack? 76 00:04:14,400 --> 00:04:17,400 Speaker 2: My favorite time saving hack is it's actually something I 77 00:04:17,440 --> 00:04:21,200 Speaker 2: wrote about in my last book, which is I think 78 00:04:21,200 --> 00:04:23,680 Speaker 2: I'm perhaps a little pathological on this front. I go 79 00:04:23,720 --> 00:04:27,080 Speaker 2: a little too far, but I don't let little tasks 80 00:04:27,400 --> 00:04:30,599 Speaker 2: or little niggles hang around very long. I'm sort of known, 81 00:04:31,000 --> 00:04:34,880 Speaker 2: I think, for responding to emails absurdly fast, even to 82 00:04:34,920 --> 00:04:37,080 Speaker 2: the point where perhaps that encroaches on my ability to 83 00:04:37,080 --> 00:04:40,520 Speaker 2: get really deep work done across big stretches of time, 84 00:04:40,839 --> 00:04:43,839 Speaker 2: because I turn my time into confetti doing that. Perhaps, 85 00:04:44,320 --> 00:04:47,280 Speaker 2: but I don't let things linger. I like to get 86 00:04:47,320 --> 00:04:49,039 Speaker 2: the little things out the way, and I found that 87 00:04:49,160 --> 00:04:51,240 Speaker 2: over the years when I stop doing that to try 88 00:04:51,279 --> 00:04:54,839 Speaker 2: different approaches, I get slower and less productive in every 89 00:04:54,839 --> 00:04:58,080 Speaker 2: other respect. And so that sort of immediately try to 90 00:04:58,080 --> 00:05:00,520 Speaker 2: get these small things out of the way approach has 91 00:05:00,560 --> 00:05:04,320 Speaker 2: been very effective for me. And I think one of 92 00:05:04,320 --> 00:05:06,000 Speaker 2: the reasons for that is that when you leave things, 93 00:05:06,000 --> 00:05:09,120 Speaker 2: they get bigger, and they might demand a minute to 94 00:05:09,160 --> 00:05:11,960 Speaker 2: deal with now. But first of all, they occupy a 95 00:05:12,000 --> 00:05:13,920 Speaker 2: lot of psychic space if you don't deal with them, 96 00:05:14,160 --> 00:05:16,159 Speaker 2: and so they end up being massive distractions. That's at 97 00:05:16,200 --> 00:05:18,440 Speaker 2: least how my brain works, and so getting them out 98 00:05:18,480 --> 00:05:20,039 Speaker 2: the way is a good idea from that perspective. But 99 00:05:20,040 --> 00:05:22,840 Speaker 2: also they often grow in scope and magnitude, and so 100 00:05:23,120 --> 00:05:25,200 Speaker 2: I find that almost every time I have an engagement, 101 00:05:25,320 --> 00:05:30,400 Speaker 2: a consulting engagement, anything like that, the longer the time horizon, 102 00:05:30,680 --> 00:05:34,159 Speaker 2: the less effective I am. Overall, my efficiency declines. And 103 00:05:34,200 --> 00:05:36,280 Speaker 2: so that sort of get in there, quick, do it, 104 00:05:36,400 --> 00:05:39,400 Speaker 2: get it done, move beyond it approach has been very 105 00:05:39,640 --> 00:05:40,719 Speaker 2: very effective for me. 106 00:05:41,400 --> 00:05:44,000 Speaker 1: How does that work? So I can see in email 107 00:05:44,040 --> 00:05:47,479 Speaker 1: that would work by just responding to things using a 108 00:05:47,560 --> 00:05:50,120 Speaker 1: single touch approach, I guess to emails, whereas many of 109 00:05:50,200 --> 00:05:52,600 Speaker 1: us will open the same email ten times before we 110 00:05:52,640 --> 00:05:55,520 Speaker 1: actually do something with it. How does it work outside 111 00:05:55,520 --> 00:05:56,279 Speaker 1: of the inbox? 112 00:05:56,920 --> 00:06:00,320 Speaker 2: So I use Workflowy, which is a very very simple 113 00:06:00,400 --> 00:06:02,720 Speaker 2: list and I've been using it for as long as 114 00:06:02,760 --> 00:06:05,080 Speaker 2: I think it's been a product that was on the market, 115 00:06:05,120 --> 00:06:09,520 Speaker 2: and it's the most simple to do list system that 116 00:06:09,839 --> 00:06:13,000 Speaker 2: there is that I've found. And I organize the list. 117 00:06:13,000 --> 00:06:16,520 Speaker 2: It's very easy to reorganize the order of things. I 118 00:06:16,640 --> 00:06:20,479 Speaker 2: organize it from smallest to biggest, and so whenever I 119 00:06:20,520 --> 00:06:22,240 Speaker 2: have a spare moment, I'll just go to that list 120 00:06:22,279 --> 00:06:23,760 Speaker 2: and say, well, what's at the top there, And that's 121 00:06:23,760 --> 00:06:26,360 Speaker 2: always the smallest thing and usually the most short term thing, 122 00:06:26,839 --> 00:06:29,920 Speaker 2: And so I'm constantly kind of shooting down these smaller 123 00:06:29,960 --> 00:06:31,680 Speaker 2: things that then are out of the way and they 124 00:06:31,680 --> 00:06:35,640 Speaker 2: clear the way for the bigger things. So although doing 125 00:06:35,680 --> 00:06:38,080 Speaker 2: that I think does encroach on my ability to have, say, 126 00:06:38,080 --> 00:06:40,840 Speaker 2: an unbroken four hour stretch doing whatever I want to do, 127 00:06:41,839 --> 00:06:44,960 Speaker 2: on balance, those four hour stretches become more available because 128 00:06:44,960 --> 00:06:47,520 Speaker 2: I've got those small things out the way in spare 129 00:06:47,560 --> 00:06:50,480 Speaker 2: moments here and there. So it's got this paradoxical effect. 130 00:06:50,520 --> 00:06:53,000 Speaker 2: It does sort of shred your time into smaller bits. 131 00:06:53,320 --> 00:06:55,360 Speaker 2: But I think it also has this effect because you're 132 00:06:55,400 --> 00:06:58,000 Speaker 2: constantly moving those things aside of leaving just the big 133 00:06:58,040 --> 00:07:01,239 Speaker 2: tasks left. And I find that's really useful. 134 00:07:01,680 --> 00:07:05,159 Speaker 1: I'm thinking about my own inbox, and I feel like 135 00:07:05,200 --> 00:07:07,760 Speaker 1: there are always emails that I just sit on or 136 00:07:07,800 --> 00:07:11,720 Speaker 1: procrastinate over, or just seem too complex, or really they're 137 00:07:11,760 --> 00:07:13,520 Speaker 1: an email, but they should just move to the to 138 00:07:13,600 --> 00:07:18,360 Speaker 1: do list. Like, what are the specific strategies that you're using, 139 00:07:19,440 --> 00:07:23,880 Speaker 1: maybe some of the less obvious ones to actually clean 140 00:07:23,920 --> 00:07:25,239 Speaker 1: out your inbox daily. 141 00:07:26,560 --> 00:07:28,400 Speaker 2: I don't know that they're less obvious, but what I 142 00:07:28,400 --> 00:07:32,000 Speaker 2: have three places where things go. They never sit in 143 00:07:32,000 --> 00:07:34,880 Speaker 2: my inbox for long. That's like short term or working memory. 144 00:07:34,960 --> 00:07:36,080 Speaker 2: I think of it this way. I think of it 145 00:07:36,080 --> 00:07:38,520 Speaker 2: as working memory, short term memory, and then long term memory. 146 00:07:38,840 --> 00:07:40,840 Speaker 2: That's sort of the equivalent of what's going on. But 147 00:07:41,080 --> 00:07:44,720 Speaker 2: for me, short term sorry, working memory, that immediate burst 148 00:07:44,760 --> 00:07:47,280 Speaker 2: of hey, here's something to do. That's the email inbox, 149 00:07:47,320 --> 00:07:49,200 Speaker 2: and I don't want to have to deal with things 150 00:07:49,240 --> 00:07:52,080 Speaker 2: in working memory. I want to file them away so 151 00:07:52,120 --> 00:07:55,920 Speaker 2: that things from there are then put into my workflowy list, 152 00:07:56,040 --> 00:07:59,000 Speaker 2: my task list. That's my short term memory, so you know, 153 00:07:59,080 --> 00:08:00,960 Speaker 2: twenty times a day. Maybe I'll quickly go and take 154 00:08:01,000 --> 00:08:02,360 Speaker 2: a glance at that and say, well, where are we 155 00:08:02,440 --> 00:08:05,400 Speaker 2: up to. Sometimes, if I'm really busy, I'll start numbering 156 00:08:05,440 --> 00:08:07,680 Speaker 2: things or say this is for Monday, this is for Tuesday, 157 00:08:07,680 --> 00:08:09,880 Speaker 2: this is for Wednesday, and so on. But then there 158 00:08:09,920 --> 00:08:12,360 Speaker 2: are some things like you describe that just kind of 159 00:08:12,400 --> 00:08:15,640 Speaker 2: sit there. They're like anchors, and they never go anywhere, 160 00:08:15,680 --> 00:08:17,520 Speaker 2: and they can be there for months or years. Even 161 00:08:18,200 --> 00:08:20,800 Speaker 2: for those, I move them out of workflow and they 162 00:08:20,840 --> 00:08:24,640 Speaker 2: become calendar reminders. So I'll say something like I don't 163 00:08:24,640 --> 00:08:26,320 Speaker 2: want to have to keep looking at this. I certainly 164 00:08:26,360 --> 00:08:27,840 Speaker 2: don't want it in my email. I don't even want 165 00:08:27,840 --> 00:08:31,320 Speaker 2: it in workflowy anymore because it's just cluttering my mind. 166 00:08:31,520 --> 00:08:32,640 Speaker 2: So what I'm going to do is I'm going to 167 00:08:32,720 --> 00:08:34,920 Speaker 2: just kind of put a big snooze button on that, 168 00:08:35,440 --> 00:08:37,680 Speaker 2: and I'll have it pop up, say once a week, 169 00:08:37,679 --> 00:08:39,800 Speaker 2: for the next four weeks, and if it pops up 170 00:08:39,840 --> 00:08:41,560 Speaker 2: and I happen to have a bit of time slack, 171 00:08:42,000 --> 00:08:44,319 Speaker 2: I will then address it there. And I find that 172 00:08:44,440 --> 00:08:45,960 Speaker 2: to be really useful because I think For me, a 173 00:08:46,000 --> 00:08:48,480 Speaker 2: lot of what this is, this sort of productivity approach, 174 00:08:48,760 --> 00:08:52,600 Speaker 2: is about leaving as little clutter in my head as possible, 175 00:08:52,960 --> 00:08:55,640 Speaker 2: because my biggest enemy is multitasking. I cannot do it. 176 00:08:55,679 --> 00:08:57,800 Speaker 2: I think it's a myth. Anyone who claims to be 177 00:08:57,840 --> 00:08:59,240 Speaker 2: able to do it. I'd like to know more about that, 178 00:08:59,280 --> 00:09:01,679 Speaker 2: because for me it's it's a nightmare. And so I 179 00:09:01,760 --> 00:09:03,880 Speaker 2: really need to be very focused when I do something, 180 00:09:04,320 --> 00:09:06,400 Speaker 2: even in very short bursts, and so all of this 181 00:09:06,440 --> 00:09:08,560 Speaker 2: is in the service of that. It's about saying put 182 00:09:08,559 --> 00:09:10,160 Speaker 2: that on the back burner, and that even on the 183 00:09:10,280 --> 00:09:12,920 Speaker 2: long term, long term memory back burner, where I don't 184 00:09:12,920 --> 00:09:14,360 Speaker 2: even want to think about it till it pops up 185 00:09:14,360 --> 00:09:16,520 Speaker 2: as a reminder in a week or two or three. 186 00:09:18,400 --> 00:09:22,080 Speaker 1: What's a daily or weekly ritual that has had the 187 00:09:22,080 --> 00:09:25,440 Speaker 1: biggest positive impact on your life over the last few years. 188 00:09:25,760 --> 00:09:27,600 Speaker 2: I don't know how common this is. Maybe other people 189 00:09:27,640 --> 00:09:29,400 Speaker 2: do this, but I felt for a very long time 190 00:09:29,480 --> 00:09:32,240 Speaker 2: that I was living life at the coal face, and 191 00:09:32,280 --> 00:09:35,079 Speaker 2: that every day was like everything I was doing was 192 00:09:35,120 --> 00:09:38,960 Speaker 2: this far from my face, and so I felt like 193 00:09:39,000 --> 00:09:41,160 Speaker 2: a bit of a rat in a maze at times, 194 00:09:41,240 --> 00:09:43,520 Speaker 2: and I wasn't sure exactly where I was going, and 195 00:09:43,559 --> 00:09:45,199 Speaker 2: when I got the next piece of cheese, I just 196 00:09:45,280 --> 00:09:47,720 Speaker 2: keep running and looking for the next one. And at 197 00:09:47,720 --> 00:09:50,760 Speaker 2: a certain point I figured as I got older, and 198 00:09:51,080 --> 00:09:53,000 Speaker 2: I think this happened when I was thirty nine. I 199 00:09:53,000 --> 00:09:54,480 Speaker 2: have a lot of research on what happens when you're 200 00:09:54,480 --> 00:09:56,720 Speaker 2: thirty nine or twenty nine, or forty nine or fifty nine, 201 00:09:56,760 --> 00:09:58,320 Speaker 2: in the fact that that coming of the new decade 202 00:09:58,360 --> 00:10:00,360 Speaker 2: kind of pushes us to do an audit. When I 203 00:10:00,400 --> 00:10:03,960 Speaker 2: was thirty nine, I was like, time's passing fairly fast, 204 00:10:04,040 --> 00:10:06,679 Speaker 2: faster than I remember it passing. And so is this 205 00:10:06,720 --> 00:10:08,920 Speaker 2: how I want my life to be? And so what 206 00:10:08,960 --> 00:10:12,439 Speaker 2: I've started doing is taking a small window of maybe 207 00:10:12,480 --> 00:10:14,719 Speaker 2: twenty minutes. It's usually on a Friday, but it sort 208 00:10:14,720 --> 00:10:17,280 Speaker 2: of varies depending on what I've got going on. And 209 00:10:17,280 --> 00:10:20,040 Speaker 2: that's my audit of the week, and not just of 210 00:10:20,080 --> 00:10:22,320 Speaker 2: the week, but of where things are headed. So what 211 00:10:22,400 --> 00:10:24,199 Speaker 2: I'll do from week to week is I'll say, Okay, 212 00:10:24,240 --> 00:10:29,520 Speaker 2: in the last week, has my energy such as I'm 213 00:10:29,800 --> 00:10:32,240 Speaker 2: using it and pouring it out gone in a direction 214 00:10:32,280 --> 00:10:34,800 Speaker 2: that's fruitful? Is it in the service of some longer 215 00:10:34,880 --> 00:10:38,200 Speaker 2: term goal or even short term goal that's valuable. If not, 216 00:10:38,320 --> 00:10:40,240 Speaker 2: what should I do differently in the coming week. And 217 00:10:40,280 --> 00:10:41,920 Speaker 2: then the nice thing about doing that is if I 218 00:10:42,000 --> 00:10:45,400 Speaker 2: take notes, which I do just very brief notes, like 219 00:10:45,440 --> 00:10:48,160 Speaker 2: a couple of sentences, I can go back and see 220 00:10:48,160 --> 00:10:50,240 Speaker 2: where I was not just a week ago, but fifty 221 00:10:50,280 --> 00:10:52,800 Speaker 2: two weeks ago or five years ago, and I can 222 00:10:52,840 --> 00:10:56,160 Speaker 2: see whether those things have changed, whether I feel satisfied, 223 00:10:56,160 --> 00:10:58,320 Speaker 2: because often I'll say something. You know, when I was 224 00:10:58,320 --> 00:11:00,040 Speaker 2: thirty nine, I would have in the first few I 225 00:11:00,080 --> 00:11:02,320 Speaker 2: would have said some things about maybe writing my next book, 226 00:11:02,360 --> 00:11:04,880 Speaker 2: which was something that really I felt i'd struggled with. 227 00:11:05,320 --> 00:11:07,240 Speaker 2: And so now I can look back at that and say, well, 228 00:11:07,280 --> 00:11:09,559 Speaker 2: I did that, that book's now written, and I'm now 229 00:11:10,000 --> 00:11:12,240 Speaker 2: that's behind me, So now what's the next thing? And 230 00:11:12,440 --> 00:11:15,679 Speaker 2: I feel that weekly audited practice is really really valuable 231 00:11:15,679 --> 00:11:18,960 Speaker 2: because instead of always pouring energy into the thing that's 232 00:11:19,200 --> 00:11:21,400 Speaker 2: five centimeters in front of you, you actually get to 233 00:11:21,400 --> 00:11:23,319 Speaker 2: think a little bit more strategically about how you want 234 00:11:23,320 --> 00:11:25,800 Speaker 2: to live your life and how you're spending your limited time. 235 00:11:26,640 --> 00:11:31,320 Speaker 1: Are there specific prompting questions that you have on these 236 00:11:31,360 --> 00:11:32,200 Speaker 1: weekly audits. 237 00:11:33,320 --> 00:11:34,880 Speaker 2: Yeah. One thing I try to do is I try 238 00:11:34,880 --> 00:11:37,240 Speaker 2: to quantify the percentage. This is silly to do, and 239 00:11:37,280 --> 00:11:39,040 Speaker 2: I don't mean to suggest that it's a sort of 240 00:11:39,080 --> 00:11:42,520 Speaker 2: scientific or empirically sound number, But I try to get 241 00:11:42,520 --> 00:11:44,680 Speaker 2: a sense of the percentage of energy that I've expended 242 00:11:44,679 --> 00:11:47,120 Speaker 2: in the past week that's in the service of something meaningful, 243 00:11:47,160 --> 00:11:51,400 Speaker 2: that that will ultimately bring me either meaning or that's 244 00:11:51,600 --> 00:11:54,480 Speaker 2: just necessary for some reason, which is also its own meaning. 245 00:11:54,559 --> 00:11:57,160 Speaker 2: Like some tasks that you have to do are not 246 00:11:57,280 --> 00:11:59,760 Speaker 2: tasks that are especially meaning laden or that feel especially 247 00:12:00,160 --> 00:12:02,320 Speaker 2: and personally, but they just have to be done, and 248 00:12:02,360 --> 00:12:05,200 Speaker 2: so that's useful to spend energy doing that, But to 249 00:12:05,200 --> 00:12:07,560 Speaker 2: get a rough breakdown of how much of your energy 250 00:12:07,600 --> 00:12:09,959 Speaker 2: is being spent productively, how much of it is being 251 00:12:09,960 --> 00:12:13,040 Speaker 2: spent checking off these kind of necessary but not particularly 252 00:12:13,280 --> 00:12:16,800 Speaker 2: enriching activities or goals, and then how much is being 253 00:12:16,840 --> 00:12:20,680 Speaker 2: wasted And if you could carve away that wasted time 254 00:12:20,720 --> 00:12:22,600 Speaker 2: and spend it doing something valuable And I don't just 255 00:12:22,640 --> 00:12:26,080 Speaker 2: mean productivity, I mean sitting in a forest or by 256 00:12:26,120 --> 00:12:30,720 Speaker 2: the ocean or whatever, that would make your life dramatically better. 257 00:12:30,760 --> 00:12:32,439 Speaker 2: And so if you see that fifty percent of your 258 00:12:32,440 --> 00:12:35,280 Speaker 2: time during the work week in the last several work weeks, 259 00:12:35,280 --> 00:12:38,040 Speaker 2: has it been spent faffing around and not actually doing 260 00:12:38,080 --> 00:12:41,319 Speaker 2: anything valuable. That's good to know because it suggests you're 261 00:12:41,320 --> 00:12:43,600 Speaker 2: still getting what you're getting done. Maybe there are other 262 00:12:43,640 --> 00:12:45,360 Speaker 2: things you could be doing with that time. The other 263 00:12:45,360 --> 00:12:48,600 Speaker 2: thing I learned from doing this actually is that I 264 00:12:48,679 --> 00:12:51,400 Speaker 2: cannot work for very long periods before I burn out 265 00:12:51,559 --> 00:12:54,080 Speaker 2: in a short term. And I didn't know that before, 266 00:12:54,400 --> 00:12:57,480 Speaker 2: but I have learned that through this process that like 267 00:12:57,720 --> 00:13:00,640 Speaker 2: getting as solid two hours of deep work of myself 268 00:13:00,720 --> 00:13:03,400 Speaker 2: is a bit of a miracle. I really I just 269 00:13:03,600 --> 00:13:06,440 Speaker 2: I think I work very hard and very intensely, and 270 00:13:06,480 --> 00:13:08,800 Speaker 2: then I'm done and I need to check out for 271 00:13:08,800 --> 00:13:11,160 Speaker 2: a bit, which I didn't realize before. And so I 272 00:13:11,200 --> 00:13:13,360 Speaker 2: was working for four hours, which was productive for two. 273 00:13:13,600 --> 00:13:15,080 Speaker 2: Now I just work for two and say all right, 274 00:13:15,120 --> 00:13:16,000 Speaker 2: it's time for a break. 275 00:13:18,080 --> 00:13:21,840 Speaker 1: When you're doing this weekly audit, are you thinking mostly 276 00:13:21,840 --> 00:13:24,400 Speaker 1: about your work life or are you also doing an 277 00:13:24,440 --> 00:13:26,360 Speaker 1: audit on your non work life? 278 00:13:26,920 --> 00:13:31,000 Speaker 2: Yeah, so I have I do both. And there are 279 00:13:31,080 --> 00:13:33,280 Speaker 2: various ways that I do this kind of audit for 280 00:13:33,440 --> 00:13:37,000 Speaker 2: my life. More broadly, one of them is, since two 281 00:13:37,080 --> 00:13:42,440 Speaker 2: thousand and two, I've written down maybe three sentences on 282 00:13:42,520 --> 00:13:45,840 Speaker 2: every single day that sums up the day, like what 283 00:13:45,840 --> 00:13:47,600 Speaker 2: were the big things in the day, what were the 284 00:13:47,640 --> 00:13:51,160 Speaker 2: main things that stick out about the day. It's not emotional, 285 00:13:51,360 --> 00:13:55,640 Speaker 2: it's more just a sort of accounting, objective accounting of 286 00:13:55,640 --> 00:13:59,040 Speaker 2: what I was doing. And I find that really a 287 00:13:59,160 --> 00:14:01,840 Speaker 2: fascinating because I think if you forget what you did 288 00:14:01,840 --> 00:14:04,800 Speaker 2: in two thousand and three, twenty years ago or whatever, 289 00:14:05,679 --> 00:14:08,000 Speaker 2: then it's like it kind of didn't exist in a sense. 290 00:14:08,200 --> 00:14:10,559 Speaker 2: And so I really like the idea that myself, who 291 00:14:10,600 --> 00:14:13,440 Speaker 2: I am, is captured in this very, very objective form. 292 00:14:13,920 --> 00:14:15,679 Speaker 2: If I could, I would write a page every day. 293 00:14:15,679 --> 00:14:17,320 Speaker 2: I just don't have the time to do that. But 294 00:14:17,400 --> 00:14:19,520 Speaker 2: it's really nice to look back. And one nice thing 295 00:14:19,600 --> 00:14:22,040 Speaker 2: is that every year I do this, either on ne 296 00:14:22,120 --> 00:14:24,800 Speaker 2: Year's Eve or sometimes on my birthday. I'll look back 297 00:14:24,800 --> 00:14:27,680 Speaker 2: and actually read through those three sentences times three hundred 298 00:14:27,680 --> 00:14:30,480 Speaker 2: and sixty five days, and sometimes if I want to 299 00:14:30,480 --> 00:14:31,840 Speaker 2: do it during the year, I'll do it again for 300 00:14:31,880 --> 00:14:34,120 Speaker 2: like's what happened over the past month or six months 301 00:14:34,160 --> 00:14:36,360 Speaker 2: or whatever. And that's a really nice way to audit 302 00:14:36,400 --> 00:14:38,920 Speaker 2: your life. And it does take some energy and effort, 303 00:14:38,920 --> 00:14:40,320 Speaker 2: and some nights I don't do it, and then the 304 00:14:40,360 --> 00:14:41,680 Speaker 2: next night. I have to do it for two in 305 00:14:41,720 --> 00:14:43,720 Speaker 2: a row or three in a row, and it loses 306 00:14:43,720 --> 00:14:46,840 Speaker 2: a bit of its fidelity. But it's been a really 307 00:14:46,880 --> 00:14:50,360 Speaker 2: great practice for me, and as someone who gets anxious 308 00:14:50,400 --> 00:14:52,840 Speaker 2: about the passing of time, I feel there's something nice 309 00:14:52,880 --> 00:14:55,800 Speaker 2: about bottling what every day means at its essence and 310 00:14:55,840 --> 00:14:57,680 Speaker 2: then being able to look back at it. So that's 311 00:14:57,720 --> 00:14:59,920 Speaker 2: one way that I've been able to audit things beyond 312 00:15:00,240 --> 00:15:01,680 Speaker 2: just work life. 313 00:15:02,360 --> 00:15:04,960 Speaker 1: It's interesting that you say that, because literally, in the 314 00:15:05,040 --> 00:15:07,720 Speaker 1: last couple of months, my partner and I bought one 315 00:15:07,720 --> 00:15:11,480 Speaker 1: of those one sentence a day diaries where you essentially 316 00:15:12,040 --> 00:15:17,600 Speaker 1: theoretically have it for five years and every day all 317 00:15:17,640 --> 00:15:19,960 Speaker 1: all the dates are numbered, but the years are not, 318 00:15:20,600 --> 00:15:23,280 Speaker 1: and so you, you know, write what you're doing on 319 00:15:23,320 --> 00:15:27,680 Speaker 1: say July twenty fifth, in twenty twenty three, and then 320 00:15:27,680 --> 00:15:29,480 Speaker 1: when you, you know, have completed a whole year, you 321 00:15:29,520 --> 00:15:31,880 Speaker 1: can go, oh, one year ago today, I was doing this, 322 00:15:32,080 --> 00:15:34,400 Speaker 1: and so we've been making that a nightly ritual and 323 00:15:35,520 --> 00:15:38,280 Speaker 1: there's really only room for one or two sentences. And 324 00:15:39,080 --> 00:15:41,200 Speaker 1: I asked my partner the other night, I'm like, how 325 00:15:41,200 --> 00:15:43,760 Speaker 1: are you even approaching this task? Like are you writing 326 00:15:43,800 --> 00:15:46,120 Speaker 1: down what did you do, or how did you feel, 327 00:15:46,160 --> 00:15:47,960 Speaker 1: or what the highlight was. I feel like there are 328 00:15:47,960 --> 00:15:50,320 Speaker 1: so many ways to do that. I like how you 329 00:15:50,360 --> 00:15:54,680 Speaker 1: described it as almost like like you know, objective accounting 330 00:15:54,720 --> 00:15:57,720 Speaker 1: in terms of what happened during the day. I'm curious 331 00:15:57,760 --> 00:16:01,040 Speaker 1: around the format and like almost how you've made this 332 00:16:01,120 --> 00:16:03,880 Speaker 1: a habit because i feel like this is the kind 333 00:16:03,920 --> 00:16:05,400 Speaker 1: of thing I think that would appeal to a lot 334 00:16:05,400 --> 00:16:08,160 Speaker 1: of people, but actually committing to do it every day. 335 00:16:08,280 --> 00:16:11,160 Speaker 1: So I'm curious what's the format and how have you 336 00:16:11,200 --> 00:16:13,560 Speaker 1: made it stick? Well? How did you make it stick originally? 337 00:16:13,920 --> 00:16:16,160 Speaker 2: Yeah, it's funny. So my camera is unfortunately he fixed, 338 00:16:16,160 --> 00:16:18,600 Speaker 2: but if I could just turn it over there, there's 339 00:16:18,800 --> 00:16:21,760 Speaker 2: a whole stack of books that are exactly where you've described, 340 00:16:21,800 --> 00:16:24,840 Speaker 2: these five years books where they don't have the date 341 00:16:24,880 --> 00:16:26,400 Speaker 2: and you can enter they have the date, but they 342 00:16:26,440 --> 00:16:28,480 Speaker 2: don't have the year, and you enter the year. So 343 00:16:28,560 --> 00:16:32,440 Speaker 2: I've been doing that since twenty twelve. So I've got 344 00:16:32,480 --> 00:16:35,400 Speaker 2: one that's twelve to sixteen, and then seventeen to whatever, 345 00:16:35,480 --> 00:16:37,560 Speaker 2: twenty one maybe or twenty two, I can't remember exactly, 346 00:16:37,640 --> 00:16:41,040 Speaker 2: and then I'm sort of halfway through the next one. 347 00:16:41,240 --> 00:16:43,800 Speaker 2: So I'm on my third of those. But before that, 348 00:16:43,880 --> 00:16:47,280 Speaker 2: I used to buy a big wall calendar and each 349 00:16:47,400 --> 00:16:50,240 Speaker 2: box for each day that that was between two thousand 350 00:16:50,240 --> 00:16:52,160 Speaker 2: and three or two thousand and two, whatever it was, 351 00:16:52,240 --> 00:16:56,120 Speaker 2: And where we are now twenty twelve, I have all 352 00:16:56,200 --> 00:16:59,360 Speaker 2: of it written in there, and so that's the very 353 00:16:59,480 --> 00:17:02,520 Speaker 2: concrete way that I do it. Is it sounds like 354 00:17:02,560 --> 00:17:05,120 Speaker 2: the same approach that you use. But this question about 355 00:17:05,160 --> 00:17:08,720 Speaker 2: how you agender the habit, it's a good question. I mean, 356 00:17:08,720 --> 00:17:10,639 Speaker 2: for me, at this point it's automatic. I'd be doing 357 00:17:10,680 --> 00:17:14,199 Speaker 2: it for half my life, and so early on I 358 00:17:14,200 --> 00:17:16,119 Speaker 2: remember it being a little bit of a hassle. But 359 00:17:16,200 --> 00:17:17,920 Speaker 2: I think there are a couple of things that are important. 360 00:17:17,920 --> 00:17:20,560 Speaker 2: Like one thing is your instinct might be it's kind 361 00:17:20,600 --> 00:17:23,000 Speaker 2: of private, you know, even if it's not very emotional, 362 00:17:23,000 --> 00:17:25,639 Speaker 2: it's private, and so you might hide it somewhere. To 363 00:17:25,680 --> 00:17:27,280 Speaker 2: the extent that it's hidden, you're going to forget to 364 00:17:27,280 --> 00:17:31,240 Speaker 2: do it, and so I keep it pretty visible. And 365 00:17:31,960 --> 00:17:34,200 Speaker 2: you know, originally my choice not to make it very 366 00:17:34,200 --> 00:17:36,560 Speaker 2: emotional was partly because it's not what I wanted it for. 367 00:17:36,640 --> 00:17:39,960 Speaker 2: It wasn't a journal, but also because I always sort 368 00:17:39,960 --> 00:17:42,880 Speaker 2: of imagined it being read by other people, not intentionally, 369 00:17:42,880 --> 00:17:44,560 Speaker 2: I didn't want that, but I thought it could happen, 370 00:17:44,920 --> 00:17:47,040 Speaker 2: and so that that I think is important. One reason 371 00:17:47,080 --> 00:17:49,760 Speaker 2: to keep it sanitized is so that you can have 372 00:17:49,880 --> 00:17:52,520 Speaker 2: it out and be reminded of it. So I found 373 00:17:52,520 --> 00:17:55,119 Speaker 2: that very useful. I also think it's really rewarding, and 374 00:17:55,160 --> 00:17:56,639 Speaker 2: the only way you get reward from it is if 375 00:17:56,680 --> 00:17:59,160 Speaker 2: you reread it, you go back, and so I think 376 00:17:59,160 --> 00:18:01,840 Speaker 2: you need to reinforce the practice by seeing what the 377 00:18:01,920 --> 00:18:03,880 Speaker 2: value of it is. And so in your first year, 378 00:18:03,920 --> 00:18:06,960 Speaker 2: when you're doing it, maybe every three weeks or two 379 00:18:07,000 --> 00:18:09,040 Speaker 2: weeks or four weeks or whatever it is, you pick 380 00:18:09,080 --> 00:18:10,960 Speaker 2: a schedule, you have a little reminder on your phone 381 00:18:11,000 --> 00:18:13,280 Speaker 2: or whatever that says, hey, go back and read what 382 00:18:13,280 --> 00:18:16,160 Speaker 2: you've been doing. And have a purpose for it too, 383 00:18:16,240 --> 00:18:17,840 Speaker 2: like why are you going back to reread it? What 384 00:18:17,920 --> 00:18:19,080 Speaker 2: is it that you hope to get from it? And 385 00:18:19,160 --> 00:18:21,760 Speaker 2: are you getting it from Are you getting that from it? 386 00:18:22,119 --> 00:18:24,600 Speaker 2: And then I think it does become a habit pretty quickly. 387 00:18:29,560 --> 00:18:32,560 Speaker 1: We will be back soon with Adam talking about the 388 00:18:32,560 --> 00:18:36,560 Speaker 1: piece of advice he finds himself giving most often. If 389 00:18:36,560 --> 00:18:39,280 Speaker 1: you're looking for more tips to improve the way you live, 390 00:18:39,640 --> 00:18:43,120 Speaker 1: I write a short fortnightly newsletter that contains three cool 391 00:18:43,200 --> 00:18:46,160 Speaker 1: things that I've discovered that help make my life better 392 00:18:46,320 --> 00:18:49,600 Speaker 1: in some way. You can sign up for that at 393 00:18:49,800 --> 00:18:54,240 Speaker 1: how I Work dot co. That's how I Work dot Co. 394 00:18:55,600 --> 00:18:58,679 Speaker 1: I'd love to know, because, like, really, such a large 395 00:18:58,800 --> 00:19:01,359 Speaker 1: part of your life is being an educator, whether that 396 00:19:01,560 --> 00:19:05,200 Speaker 1: being in a lecture theater or in a university through 397 00:19:05,240 --> 00:19:09,080 Speaker 1: to the amazing books that you write that have certainly 398 00:19:09,080 --> 00:19:13,239 Speaker 1: taught me a lot. I'm wondering what advice do you 399 00:19:13,320 --> 00:19:15,639 Speaker 1: find yourself giving to people most often? 400 00:19:16,520 --> 00:19:18,800 Speaker 2: So I would say the advice I give most often 401 00:19:19,000 --> 00:19:21,080 Speaker 2: is the advice that was most valuable to me early 402 00:19:21,119 --> 00:19:25,000 Speaker 2: in my career, which was to kind of treat yourself 403 00:19:25,200 --> 00:19:28,440 Speaker 2: as an index fund. And what I mean by that is, 404 00:19:28,680 --> 00:19:32,240 Speaker 2: if you think about investing, if you pour all your 405 00:19:32,240 --> 00:19:34,640 Speaker 2: money in one stock and the stock tanks, you're done 406 00:19:34,680 --> 00:19:37,720 Speaker 2: your toast. That's the end of you. And if you 407 00:19:38,040 --> 00:19:40,720 Speaker 2: pour all your money into a broad base of five 408 00:19:40,800 --> 00:19:45,320 Speaker 2: hundred stocks that are reflective of the market as a whole, 409 00:19:45,400 --> 00:19:48,560 Speaker 2: the whole economy would need to tank for a very 410 00:19:48,640 --> 00:19:50,840 Speaker 2: very long time for you to be in really big trouble. 411 00:19:51,400 --> 00:19:53,240 Speaker 2: And so you know, there are ups and downs, and 412 00:19:53,280 --> 00:19:56,320 Speaker 2: there are some components of that index fund that will 413 00:19:56,320 --> 00:19:58,000 Speaker 2: be good in a certain moment, and some will be 414 00:19:58,040 --> 00:19:59,960 Speaker 2: bad and drag you down a little, and that's unfortunate. 415 00:20:00,200 --> 00:20:03,280 Speaker 2: But on balance, if you're bullish about the fact that 416 00:20:03,400 --> 00:20:06,840 Speaker 2: ultimately we as a population are going to grow and 417 00:20:07,040 --> 00:20:09,240 Speaker 2: that the world's economy is going to grow in the 418 00:20:09,240 --> 00:20:11,719 Speaker 2: long run, then you're doing the right thing. I think 419 00:20:11,760 --> 00:20:14,520 Speaker 2: that's true about how we should think about our work 420 00:20:14,560 --> 00:20:18,760 Speaker 2: lives as well, and really with life in general. But diversity, 421 00:20:18,880 --> 00:20:22,680 Speaker 2: variety and creating an index fund of your work portfolio 422 00:20:22,720 --> 00:20:25,359 Speaker 2: is really important. So if you look at your work 423 00:20:25,400 --> 00:20:28,679 Speaker 2: and you say, my work is one stock, I'm pouring 424 00:20:28,720 --> 00:20:30,520 Speaker 2: all of my money in time and energy and all 425 00:20:30,520 --> 00:20:34,359 Speaker 2: the other resources into this one stock, it could tank 426 00:20:34,400 --> 00:20:36,080 Speaker 2: any time. And this is what happened to me early 427 00:20:36,119 --> 00:20:37,840 Speaker 2: on in my grad school career. I worked on this 428 00:20:37,880 --> 00:20:40,119 Speaker 2: project for six months and then someone else published the 429 00:20:40,200 --> 00:20:42,560 Speaker 2: pub the paper that was based on what I thought 430 00:20:42,600 --> 00:20:45,760 Speaker 2: the idea was, and my advisor came to me and said, look, 431 00:20:46,000 --> 00:20:48,760 Speaker 2: that's six months down the drain. That's just how academia works. 432 00:20:49,160 --> 00:20:51,199 Speaker 2: I was like, I don't want to be part of 433 00:20:51,200 --> 00:20:53,520 Speaker 2: a system where that can happen. So then I started 434 00:20:53,560 --> 00:20:56,280 Speaker 2: working with like six different professors on six different projects, 435 00:20:56,560 --> 00:20:58,600 Speaker 2: some of which ended up being the things that got 436 00:20:58,600 --> 00:21:01,000 Speaker 2: me jobs later on, and some of which just went nowhere. 437 00:21:01,600 --> 00:21:03,520 Speaker 2: I think that's a really valuable idea, like you should 438 00:21:03,560 --> 00:21:05,880 Speaker 2: have multiple sources of income if you can. And that's 439 00:21:05,880 --> 00:21:07,840 Speaker 2: not for everyone. It depends on the structure of your life. 440 00:21:07,840 --> 00:21:10,800 Speaker 2: If you're a professional, maybe that doesn't work. Maybe there 441 00:21:10,800 --> 00:21:14,719 Speaker 2: are non competes that prevent that. But try to thicken 442 00:21:15,000 --> 00:21:18,000 Speaker 2: what it is that you are, whether at work or otherwise, 443 00:21:18,200 --> 00:21:21,080 Speaker 2: and add as many just little limbs to that as 444 00:21:21,119 --> 00:21:24,439 Speaker 2: you can. And I think that that has served me 445 00:21:24,640 --> 00:21:26,840 Speaker 2: well since that time. That was two thousand and four, 446 00:21:27,320 --> 00:21:30,720 Speaker 2: so we're going on twenty years and I can't tell 447 00:21:30,760 --> 00:21:34,040 Speaker 2: you how many times I've been saved by this diversification approach. 448 00:21:34,119 --> 00:21:36,920 Speaker 2: And so that's the most common piece of advice. Students 449 00:21:37,000 --> 00:21:38,560 Speaker 2: will ask me, like what should I do with my career, 450 00:21:38,600 --> 00:21:40,840 Speaker 2: and I'm like, I don't care what you do. Just diversify. 451 00:21:41,400 --> 00:21:45,240 Speaker 2: Make sure the downside is as protected as possible. And 452 00:21:46,240 --> 00:21:47,520 Speaker 2: I've always found that to be useful. 453 00:21:48,440 --> 00:21:51,399 Speaker 1: It's interesting when you think about diversification because it involves 454 00:21:51,400 --> 00:21:54,280 Speaker 1: a lot of saying yes, but Ultimately, the more you 455 00:21:54,320 --> 00:21:56,679 Speaker 1: do and also the more high profile you become, it 456 00:21:56,720 --> 00:22:00,240 Speaker 1: also involves saying no. So I'm wondering, when it comes 457 00:22:00,280 --> 00:22:05,119 Speaker 1: to increasing your current level of diversification, how do you 458 00:22:05,160 --> 00:22:08,400 Speaker 1: decide whether an opportunity is a good one to say 459 00:22:08,480 --> 00:22:10,040 Speaker 1: yes to or whether you say no to it. 460 00:22:10,920 --> 00:22:13,160 Speaker 2: Yeah, So this gets it again something that I talked 461 00:22:13,200 --> 00:22:14,920 Speaker 2: about quite a lot in my last book. There's a 462 00:22:14,920 --> 00:22:17,840 Speaker 2: whole chapter on this idea of the distinction between exploration 463 00:22:17,920 --> 00:22:21,800 Speaker 2: and exploitation and exploration broadly speaking, is this period of 464 00:22:21,840 --> 00:22:24,960 Speaker 2: time where you say, I want to try a lot 465 00:22:25,000 --> 00:22:27,640 Speaker 2: of things. This is my yes period. So I give 466 00:22:27,640 --> 00:22:31,320 Speaker 2: a talk to NYU freshmen. These are first year university students, 467 00:22:31,359 --> 00:22:33,400 Speaker 2: and I basically say to them, this is your four 468 00:22:33,480 --> 00:22:36,160 Speaker 2: years to be exploratory, and that means saying yes to everything, 469 00:22:36,240 --> 00:22:38,760 Speaker 2: and you will be exhausted and sometimes you'll say, I 470 00:22:38,760 --> 00:22:40,439 Speaker 2: don't know if I want to do that. Your default 471 00:22:40,480 --> 00:22:42,760 Speaker 2: should be yes. If you're burning out, say no. But 472 00:22:42,920 --> 00:22:46,560 Speaker 2: that aside, you should be diversifying, saying yes to as 473 00:22:46,560 --> 00:22:49,400 Speaker 2: many things as possible so that you can explore. Because 474 00:22:49,760 --> 00:22:51,760 Speaker 2: one thing I show them is that of the ten 475 00:22:51,800 --> 00:22:54,600 Speaker 2: thousand emails I've received, in the last fifteen years, say 476 00:22:55,400 --> 00:22:57,840 Speaker 2: four of them change my life. But when you get them, 477 00:22:57,880 --> 00:22:59,240 Speaker 2: you don't know they're going to change your life. 478 00:23:00,160 --> 00:23:00,440 Speaker 1: I mean. 479 00:23:00,920 --> 00:23:02,760 Speaker 2: So one of them was, hey, have you thought about 480 00:23:02,800 --> 00:23:05,199 Speaker 2: writing a book? And my instinct was to be like, 481 00:23:05,280 --> 00:23:07,879 Speaker 2: I'm so busy. I always feel busy. No, I can't 482 00:23:07,880 --> 00:23:10,199 Speaker 2: do this. But I was an inexploratory period, and I 483 00:23:10,200 --> 00:23:13,399 Speaker 2: said yes. Another one was to establish what became my 484 00:23:13,440 --> 00:23:15,440 Speaker 2: consulting career. Another one, you know, there are all these 485 00:23:15,440 --> 00:23:20,120 Speaker 2: little emails that actually show verbatim minus identifiers, and the students, 486 00:23:20,160 --> 00:23:21,960 Speaker 2: I think, get a sense of the importance of that 487 00:23:21,960 --> 00:23:25,280 Speaker 2: exploratory period. So that's the time to say yes. But 488 00:23:25,320 --> 00:23:28,320 Speaker 2: you can't do that all the time. Right now, I'm 489 00:23:28,440 --> 00:23:30,959 Speaker 2: very much not in an exploratory period. I have all 490 00:23:31,000 --> 00:23:34,320 Speaker 2: the things I need. I've diversified. Now I'm exploiting. And 491 00:23:34,320 --> 00:23:36,560 Speaker 2: that's what exploitation is. And that's where you basically say 492 00:23:36,600 --> 00:23:39,200 Speaker 2: no to everything that isn't exactly about what you're focusing on. 493 00:23:39,840 --> 00:23:41,720 Speaker 2: And you have to make the transition from one to 494 00:23:41,760 --> 00:23:45,000 Speaker 2: the other because you can't always be exploratory, you can't 495 00:23:45,000 --> 00:23:49,320 Speaker 2: always be diversifying. But I remember an example of this 496 00:23:49,480 --> 00:23:52,879 Speaker 2: is I think a huge part of my professional life 497 00:23:53,320 --> 00:23:59,560 Speaker 2: in twenty nineteen going into early twenty twenty was speaking 498 00:24:00,119 --> 00:24:02,720 Speaker 2: a speaking career, and it had grown every year since 499 00:24:02,840 --> 00:24:06,119 Speaker 2: twenty eleven, and it had become something that was a 500 00:24:06,160 --> 00:24:07,840 Speaker 2: big part of my life. I derived a lot of 501 00:24:07,840 --> 00:24:10,440 Speaker 2: pleasure from it, and I also it was financially important 502 00:24:10,480 --> 00:24:13,399 Speaker 2: for me. And then COVID hit and it went to 503 00:24:13,480 --> 00:24:17,040 Speaker 2: zero and I had diversified, So it wasn't the end 504 00:24:17,080 --> 00:24:19,000 Speaker 2: of the world, but it was a really big part 505 00:24:19,040 --> 00:24:22,320 Speaker 2: of my portfolio. And so then I immediately at the 506 00:24:22,359 --> 00:24:25,240 Speaker 2: beginning of COVID went back into exploratory mode, and so 507 00:24:25,359 --> 00:24:27,760 Speaker 2: that was a trigger for me to go from exploitation 508 00:24:27,800 --> 00:24:30,080 Speaker 2: to exploration. So I think you do need to think 509 00:24:30,119 --> 00:24:32,200 Speaker 2: about that. When are you exploring, when are you exploiting? 510 00:24:32,200 --> 00:24:34,399 Speaker 2: And how do you know when to transition. You cannot 511 00:24:34,400 --> 00:24:37,560 Speaker 2: always explore, but you also can't exploit forever without exploring, 512 00:24:37,600 --> 00:24:39,800 Speaker 2: because eventually the well runs dry and you've got to 513 00:24:39,840 --> 00:24:40,920 Speaker 2: think about new things. 514 00:24:41,480 --> 00:24:44,280 Speaker 1: Now, if I gifted you a plaque to put on 515 00:24:44,320 --> 00:24:47,600 Speaker 1: your wall and it had something that you'd like to 516 00:24:47,880 --> 00:24:51,600 Speaker 1: constantly be reminded of, what would that plaque say. 517 00:24:52,000 --> 00:24:58,080 Speaker 2: Go to bed. I feel as though I manage my 518 00:24:58,160 --> 00:25:02,760 Speaker 2: time fairly carefully until my kids are asleep. I have 519 00:25:02,840 --> 00:25:06,920 Speaker 2: kids who are six and seven, and I feel like 520 00:25:07,000 --> 00:25:09,240 Speaker 2: I was a very good manager of my time even 521 00:25:09,960 --> 00:25:13,520 Speaker 2: in those later hours until I had kids. But now 522 00:25:13,640 --> 00:25:17,919 Speaker 2: I punish my mourning self by almost always staying up 523 00:25:17,960 --> 00:25:20,480 Speaker 2: too late. And I feel that a plaque or something 524 00:25:20,520 --> 00:25:23,600 Speaker 2: similar that nudged me on to go to bed would 525 00:25:23,600 --> 00:25:25,800 Speaker 2: would make my life. If I think about the plaque 526 00:25:25,800 --> 00:25:28,160 Speaker 2: that would bring me the most benefit in my life. 527 00:25:28,280 --> 00:25:31,199 Speaker 2: Knowing how important sleep is, that's probably the one go 528 00:25:31,280 --> 00:25:31,600 Speaker 2: to bed. 529 00:25:32,920 --> 00:25:36,359 Speaker 1: What is it that stops you from doing the thing 530 00:25:36,480 --> 00:25:38,040 Speaker 1: that you know is good for you. 531 00:25:39,040 --> 00:25:41,880 Speaker 2: Yeah, it's It's funny because it's like, it's not simple 532 00:25:42,000 --> 00:25:45,680 Speaker 2: in that I feel like the periods of my day 533 00:25:45,720 --> 00:25:48,760 Speaker 2: when I'm extremely busy during the day sometimes and then 534 00:25:49,280 --> 00:25:51,720 Speaker 2: my kids come home and I love spending time with them, 535 00:25:51,720 --> 00:25:55,560 Speaker 2: but that's also really busy. So the only hedonically appealing 536 00:25:55,640 --> 00:25:57,600 Speaker 2: time that I have that's truly for me is that 537 00:25:57,720 --> 00:26:01,920 Speaker 2: time at night, and so sometimes I knowingly sacrifice sleep. 538 00:26:01,960 --> 00:26:04,600 Speaker 2: It's not like I'm just hoodwinking myself and thinking I'll 539 00:26:04,640 --> 00:26:06,560 Speaker 2: be okay in the morning. It's that I'm like, it's 540 00:26:06,600 --> 00:26:08,439 Speaker 2: like when you have a couple maybe too many drinks 541 00:26:08,480 --> 00:26:10,720 Speaker 2: or something like that, and you're like, I want to 542 00:26:10,720 --> 00:26:13,200 Speaker 2: have fun now I'm going to sacrifice how I feel tomorrow. 543 00:26:13,320 --> 00:26:15,720 Speaker 2: It's the same sort of decision, and so I don't 544 00:26:15,720 --> 00:26:17,800 Speaker 2: always think it's the wrong decision, but I think chronically 545 00:26:17,880 --> 00:26:20,320 Speaker 2: I make the wrong decision. When it's the same decision 546 00:26:20,359 --> 00:26:22,480 Speaker 2: over and over again, it becomes the wrong one. That's 547 00:26:22,480 --> 00:26:24,480 Speaker 2: where the plaque would come in. Handy nudge me the 548 00:26:24,520 --> 00:26:24,880 Speaker 2: other way. 549 00:26:26,480 --> 00:26:28,840 Speaker 1: Finally, Adam, for people that want to connect with you, 550 00:26:29,200 --> 00:26:32,560 Speaker 1: read your work, consumer more of what you're doing. What's 551 00:26:32,560 --> 00:26:34,080 Speaker 1: the best way for people to do that? 552 00:26:35,720 --> 00:26:38,840 Speaker 2: There are a few ways. One is through the books 553 00:26:38,840 --> 00:26:41,239 Speaker 2: I guess, which are the kind of culminations of the 554 00:26:41,280 --> 00:26:44,520 Speaker 2: things I've thought about for periods of several years. And 555 00:26:44,560 --> 00:26:47,200 Speaker 2: so there are three of those. The most recent was 556 00:26:47,240 --> 00:26:49,040 Speaker 2: published just a couple of months ago. So I think 557 00:26:49,040 --> 00:26:50,840 Speaker 2: that's one good place that you can learn about what 558 00:26:50,880 --> 00:26:54,919 Speaker 2: I'm thinking about more sort of moment to moment. The 559 00:26:54,960 --> 00:26:57,320 Speaker 2: one social media platform that I spend more time on 560 00:26:57,359 --> 00:26:59,240 Speaker 2: than any other at the moment is LinkedIn, and so 561 00:26:59,320 --> 00:27:04,560 Speaker 2: that's one place. And if you look at my NYU website, 562 00:27:04,600 --> 00:27:06,840 Speaker 2: which is publicly available, it's pretty easy to find. Or 563 00:27:06,880 --> 00:27:09,960 Speaker 2: my personal website, I off and update that with whatever's 564 00:27:09,960 --> 00:27:12,199 Speaker 2: going on in my life. Sometimes I write pieces in 565 00:27:12,480 --> 00:27:15,920 Speaker 2: the popular press and so on, so those, if they're available, 566 00:27:16,320 --> 00:27:18,520 Speaker 2: will be placed there. And sometimes there are videos and 567 00:27:18,560 --> 00:27:21,640 Speaker 2: interviews and things like that, so those are the best places. 568 00:27:23,200 --> 00:27:26,040 Speaker 1: I hope you got value from my chat with Adam. 569 00:27:26,320 --> 00:27:29,719 Speaker 1: I must say that having this conversation made me double 570 00:27:29,800 --> 00:27:32,960 Speaker 1: down on my one line a day journaling, but it 571 00:27:33,160 --> 00:27:36,000 Speaker 1: also made me realize the importance of reading back over 572 00:27:36,040 --> 00:27:40,199 Speaker 1: my journal entries, which I now find is probably the 573 00:27:40,240 --> 00:27:44,760 Speaker 1: best motivator to keep myself doing it on a daily basis. 574 00:27:45,440 --> 00:27:47,520 Speaker 1: Thank you so much for sharing part of your day 575 00:27:47,560 --> 00:27:50,040 Speaker 1: with me by listening to How I Live. If you're 576 00:27:50,119 --> 00:27:53,439 Speaker 1: keen for more tips on how to work better and 577 00:27:53,560 --> 00:27:57,199 Speaker 1: live better, connect with me on LinkedIn or Instagram to 578 00:27:57,240 --> 00:28:00,720 Speaker 1: search for Amantha Imba How I Live with recorded on 579 00:28:00,800 --> 00:28:03,440 Speaker 1: the traditional land of the Warrangery people, part of the 580 00:28:03,520 --> 00:28:06,280 Speaker 1: Cool and Nation. I'm so grateful for being able to 581 00:28:06,320 --> 00:28:08,480 Speaker 1: work and live on this beautiful land, and I want 582 00:28:08,520 --> 00:28:11,320 Speaker 1: to pay my respects to elder's past, present and emerging. 583 00:28:12,200 --> 00:28:15,240 Speaker 1: How I Live is produced by Inventium with production support 584 00:28:15,240 --> 00:28:18,359 Speaker 1: from Dead Set Studios. The producer for this episode was 585 00:28:18,359 --> 00:28:21,280 Speaker 1: Liamridan and sound engineering was done by Martin Imber