Speaker 1: When you are sitting on the couch mastering your Netflix
Speaker 1: and hill watching show after show, do you ever consider
Speaker 1: the thousands of scripts that never even made it off
Speaker 1: the ground, the hours of work that will never ever
Speaker 1: be seen. How did the big TV execs know which
Speaker 1: ideas to back and which ideas to scrap and which
Speaker 1: ideas were going to be the ones keeping you on
Speaker 1: that couch while you binge your night away. A man
Speaker 1: who does just that, who knows what you're going to
Speaker 1: enjoy before you do, is Chris Oliver Taylor. He's the
Speaker 1: CEO of Asia Pacific for production and entertainment company Freemantle.
Speaker 1: Fremantle has produced shows including Farmer Wants a Wife, Australia's
Speaker 1: Got Talent, Family Feud, Restoration Australia Wentworth and Neighbors, to
Speaker 1: name just a few. Chris has worked in production roles
Speaker 1: for the BBC, AB, NBC Universal and played a hand
Speaker 1: in Australian comedy classics like Kath and Kim and Summer
Speaker 1: Heights High. So how can Chris tell if an idea
Speaker 1: is worth backing? And what are the big TV execs
Speaker 1: looking for when commissioning new ideas? And when should you
Speaker 1: follow your gut over process when making big decisions. My
Speaker 1: name is doctor Amantha Imber. I'm an organizational psychologist and
Speaker 1: the founder of behavioral science consultancy invent Him. And this
Speaker 1: is how I work, a show about how to help
Speaker 1: you do your best work. So Chris is based in
Speaker 1: Melbourne where I am, but Fremantle's head officers are in Sydney.
Speaker 1: So I wanted to know how will Chris be working
Speaker 1: now that borders are opening back up in Australia, given
Speaker 1: that he used to fly to Sydney every single week
Speaker 1: pre COVID.
Speaker 2: Well, I used to do it every week pretty much,
Speaker 2: and I think that will clearly change or change.
Speaker 3: I think for two reasons.
Speaker 2: One, there's not quite the same demand for it to
Speaker 2: manage people and to be around people. I think people
Speaker 2: are much more you know that includes networks, CHALL seven, ABC,
Speaker 2: CHALL nine etc. I think they all are very happy
Speaker 2: working at home as well and working remotely. And then
Speaker 2: the other thing, which I think also is not just
Speaker 2: restricted to the job I do or to the business
Speaker 2: I work in.
Speaker 3: Is budgets.
Speaker 2: It costs me lots of money to jump on a plane,
Speaker 2: lots of time, and yet I can.
Speaker 3: Be much more efficient.
Speaker 2: I think for the most part working out of home,
Speaker 2: working in one place, using whatever technology that might be
Speaker 2: be at Zoom or Google, hangouts or teams or whatever
Speaker 2: we use. And I think we'll find that will be
Speaker 2: the new norm for many, many meetings. And what I
Speaker 2: probably plan to do is once a month, say is
Speaker 2: go to Sydney and try and do a number of
Speaker 2: drinks or dinners or lunches or breakfasts and just keep
Speaker 2: their physical connection going. But for general meetings I think
Speaker 2: I would do in them remomently.
Speaker 1: Now I've heard that you try to keep your meetings
Speaker 1: to thirty minutes. How do you manage to achieve that?
Speaker 3: Well? I fail often, of course.
Speaker 2: But the plan is that so I have a couple
Speaker 2: of rules on the meetings where possible, so one is
Speaker 2: half an hour and then some time either side of
Speaker 2: the meeting. That doesn't always work, but if possible, just
Speaker 2: so you can prepare, and also so you can action
Speaker 2: whatever you've agreed to action. And what it was finding,
Speaker 2: particularly in the first part of the pandemic, for all
Speaker 2: those benefits I've just outlined around efficiency and ability not
Speaker 2: to spend my life on planes, but actually we do
Speaker 2: some work.
Speaker 3: What happened in the first on Melbourne, so many many
Speaker 3: months of.
Speaker 2: Lockdown we had was that I would then my DARI
Speaker 2: would then become so forth with meetings because it was
Speaker 2: easy to do that. I could have the meetings but
Speaker 2: do no work, and so certainly through all through twenty
Speaker 2: one we've changed that. So half an hour meetings allows
Speaker 2: one to be a bit more efficient. I think people
Speaker 2: do get zoom tired as well and just need a
Speaker 2: bit of a relaxation and change, And I think secondly
Speaker 2: allows the work to be done. So I'm quite pretty
Speaker 2: focused on that. There's a couple of meetings we go longer,
Speaker 2: but for the most part that's what we do. And
Speaker 2: then the other rule I have is no meetings where
Speaker 2: possible on a Friday, So we just try and keep
Speaker 2: that clear as day, so that day as clear as
Speaker 2: we can, because I think this that allows the things
Speaker 2: you didn't think about that we turn up that you've
Speaker 2: got time, and also the work that you need to do,
Speaker 2: the thinking work, be that strategic or be that looking
Speaker 2: at budgets or selling operational plans, whatever it might be,
Speaker 2: that gives you at least one day a week to
Speaker 2: get your head down and do some of the thinking.
Speaker 1: I've heard that you categorize meetings into three different types.
Speaker 1: Can you talk about how you got to that categorization
Speaker 1: and what it consists of.
Speaker 3: So broadly I trying to live by this.
Speaker 2: We have a lot of internal stakeholders, so operational meetings
Speaker 2: that are important, you know, so that with our drama team,
Speaker 2: or be that with our entertainment team, or finance or
Speaker 2: legal and et cetera, et cetera. They're half of our
Speaker 2: meetings that are always about continued touch points and making
Speaker 2: sure the business is moving now in a pandemic, really
Speaker 2: important because obviously we couldn't get around to be on
Speaker 2: the ground, so we had to keep on those touch points.
Speaker 2: But we've continued that work. So that's the first one
Speaker 2: operational internal. The second one is external, and we have
Speaker 2: less control of those meetings. We are a production company,
Speaker 2: a producer, and so fundamentally our job is thinking of
Speaker 2: good ideas and then trying to get Netflix or Amazon
Speaker 2: or the ABC or Foxtail or CHANL nine to buy
Speaker 2: that idea. And that's effectively what we do in the
Speaker 2: first part, and then we if we in success, we
Speaker 2: then get to produce it. So the external meetings are
Speaker 2: driven by firstly the idea, the idea of Pipelin, how
Speaker 2: many do we have when we're going to go and
Speaker 2: talk to networks, And then secondly by of course the
Speaker 2: enthusiasm by the networks and how long.
Speaker 3: They would like to talk to us.
Speaker 2: So the second one we have less control over, but
Speaker 2: they're really really important. They are the key way of
Speaker 2: generating work. And the third one is the kind of
Speaker 2: the bit why I don't apply the half an hour
Speaker 2: role where possible to it, which is the strategic set
Speaker 2: of meetings that are hold and that might well be
Speaker 2: with my colleagues in London in International freem International, or
Speaker 2: with my leadership team domestically, where we just carve our
Speaker 2: time to monitor the external environment, to ensure that our
Speaker 2: plans are in place, to ensure that we're delivering as
Speaker 2: we think we should be, and to understand what's going
Speaker 2: on with a very very fast moving market. So they're
Speaker 2: the three ways that I categorize internal which I kind
Speaker 2: of generally call operational networks or external meetings, and then
Speaker 2: strategic meetings.
Speaker 1: Interested in the external meetings which are essentially sales meetings
Speaker 1: where you're pitching an idea, So what are the strategies
Speaker 1: that you use to get companies that are receiving pictures
Speaker 1: ad nauseum excited about the stuff that you're working on
Speaker 1: at Fremantle.
Speaker 3: If only I knew the answer. I think it comes
Speaker 3: down to two or three things, right.
Speaker 2: So One, it does come down to friendships, and I
Speaker 2: don't mean that facetiously. I mean that people do like
Speaker 2: to buy from people they know. I think that's again
Speaker 2: not just unique to the television business. And so we
Speaker 2: have long, long friendships with many networks who have been
Speaker 2: former colleagues or.
Speaker 3: Former employees.
Speaker 2: And so we then look at the company and figure
Speaker 2: out who is the best person to make the initial approach.
Speaker 2: Is it me is the CEO, or is it someone
Speaker 2: else who has just left Amazon for the sake of
Speaker 2: an example, who knows that team well. So we strategize
Speaker 2: who's the best person to make the connection, who is
Speaker 2: going to find a way to cut through. Secondly, it's
Speaker 2: all about the idea, of course. So we can probably
Speaker 2: get most meetings that we would like because I think
Speaker 2: we tend to going with very good ideas and people
Speaker 2: do want to hear from us. But that doesn't mean
Speaker 2: we win every commission, of course, And so we have
Speaker 2: to make sure the idea is just absolutely fantastic. And
Speaker 2: so to do that you need to know the market
Speaker 2: that you're dealing with. And then we try and tease
Speaker 2: the buyer with that we've got this amazing idea with
Speaker 2: this talent or with this location or with this whatever
Speaker 2: I be, and that's going to work for your core
Speaker 2: audience because of and it's a simple, a simple way
Speaker 2: of trying to get them to engage with us, to say,
Speaker 2: you know what, that sounds like quite a good idea.
Speaker 3: Let's have that conversation.
Speaker 2: And then when in of course, when it's over to
Speaker 2: the cell and we don't always get them, of course,
Speaker 2: but we like to think we're quite good at pitching
Speaker 2: and selling, but it's trying to get that first conversation.
Speaker 2: So using your connections is fundamental. You know, whatsapping, texts,
Speaker 2: teams or so signal, all those kind of things are
Speaker 2: great saying hey, got this great idea, we think it's
Speaker 2: for you. Would you take a pitch? Yep, love to
Speaker 2: hear more and then you can go more formally. We
Speaker 2: use all those kind of tactics and strategies to stand
Speaker 2: out for the crowd.
Speaker 1: So with presenting the actual idea. How are you doing that?
Speaker 1: Like what communication tools are you using? Is it like
Speaker 1: a one minute pitch, like it's this meets that, or
Speaker 1: is it a half hour you know, in depth discussion
Speaker 1: about the idea? What does that look like?
Speaker 2: We were going to a pitch normally with two or
Speaker 2: three of our own people, so myself plus two other
Speaker 2: people normally on the other side, there's probably two or
Speaker 2: three people from the network as well, so it's probably
Speaker 2: five or sex of us on the call. Could be
Speaker 2: in person, could be via tech. And then we will
Speaker 2: present what we would have rehearsed it two or three
Speaker 2: times beforehand going in. We all know what we're going
Speaker 2: to say, and we try and lead off, So I'll
Speaker 2: try and lead the pitch off and then throw to
Speaker 2: whoever's going to lead the pitch, might be the producer
Speaker 2: or director or a writer, depending on what we're pitching.
Speaker 2: We would normally show a reel, so we'd normally cut
Speaker 2: a little sissle reel if we've got the if we've
Speaker 2: got the footage that we need, so we'd normally try
Speaker 2: and show that to bring some life and color and
Speaker 2: movement to the conversation. And we will always have a
Speaker 2: pitch deck, so we'll always have a document that might
Speaker 2: be between seven and fifteen pages long that tells the
Speaker 2: buyer what the show is, and that will take you
Speaker 2: through everything from the format of the show, how many episodes,
Speaker 2: who we think should be in it, or who's writing it.
Speaker 3: The story is a little different between the genres that
Speaker 3: the key points the same, and we will try and
Speaker 3: get through all of that in fifteen minutes and then
Speaker 3: allow the last fifteen minutes for conversation and questions. That's
Speaker 3: how it should work, or how we like to make
Speaker 3: it work. I have pitched to a network before with
Speaker 3: a color of my colleagues, and you could tell within
Speaker 3: about fifteen second of starting that they hated the idea
Speaker 3: and we're not going to buy the show, to such
Speaker 3: a point that after probably a minute thirty I wrapped
Speaker 3: it up and just said, hey, this is it for
Speaker 3: you guys, let's call it. And they were very good.
Speaker 2: They were very very I think they appreciated that because
Speaker 2: they get so many different pictures. But we just haven't
Speaker 2: got it right. We just haven't got it right. And
Speaker 2: that was fine, that was okay, a good learning for us.
Speaker 2: But we just called it early and didn't waste their
Speaker 2: time or our time. More so, hopefully you get half
Speaker 2: an hour, sometimes you get twenty seconds.
Speaker 1: Have you got any rules of thumb for how you
Speaker 1: I guess initially describe an idea like in a nutshell
Speaker 1: to hook people in.
Speaker 3: So there's a few ways you can do it, of course,
Speaker 3: so you can in drama. The way that many people
Speaker 3: do it is it's a bit like succession, but it's
Speaker 3: a bit like.
Speaker 2: Total control or whatever to get an idea like that,
Speaker 2: and you're trying to put a sense of what it
Speaker 2: feels like in tone to the room. There's a risk
Speaker 2: of that, of course, is that maybe someone doesn't like succession,
Speaker 2: or maybe someone's already got succession on their network, in
Speaker 2: which case why they need another one. So you've got
Speaker 2: to be carefulbout that. I think we try and do
Speaker 2: it so that if you can't pitch the show in
Speaker 2: one line or half a sentence and let the person
Speaker 2: understand what it is you are struggling to cut through.
Speaker 2: And so we work very very hard on that log
Speaker 2: line to really make sure that the buyer, who's probably
Speaker 2: know who might have ten meetings that day with ten
Speaker 2: different producers trying to sell things. We want them to
Speaker 2: walk away at the end of the day with Jesus
Speaker 2: A good pitch and God, I really understood that it
Speaker 2: was a drama setting the Northern Territory.
Speaker 3: And a boy fell in love with a girl. Great,
Speaker 3: get it, love it.
Speaker 1: Now you're also on the receiving end of pitches. I
Speaker 1: would imagine that that is a significant part of what
Speaker 1: you do and what you have done in your career.
Speaker 1: What are the things that you're listening for when someone
Speaker 1: is pitching you an idea?
Speaker 2: So almost the same things we just discussed on enough,
Speaker 2: the three things I look for, particularly in drama, and
Speaker 2: the idea, Funnily enough, is not necessarily the most important bit.
Speaker 2: And the reason for that, which might sound strange to
Speaker 2: your listeners. Why do we not came about the idea?
Speaker 2: We do? But ideas are so ubiquitous and bluntly, I
Speaker 2: don't know what Netflix wants in the UK or what
Speaker 2: Amazon might want in the US.
Speaker 3: We don't know. And we used to know all that.
Speaker 2: We used to know the Australian market inside out and
Speaker 2: back to front. We would know exactly what an ABC
Speaker 2: should look like or exactly what a Channel seven sheld
Speaker 2: look like. But the world's moved on, and now we're
Speaker 2: dealing with multiple networks all over the world and trying
Speaker 2: to work out their commissioning strategy. So the idea actually
Speaker 2: is kind of on the page but not necessarily the
Speaker 2: most important part in drama. For me, it's three things.
Speaker 2: The first thing goes to IP intellectual property. Is the
Speaker 2: story based on something? Is it a book? Is it
Speaker 2: a play? Is it a true story? Is it someone's
Speaker 2: deep recollections about their childhood, etcetera, etcetera.
Speaker 3: Is that a magazine article? Is it a podcast? Because
Speaker 3: what we.
Speaker 2: Find buyers are looking for at the moment is something
Speaker 2: that has depth to it. So not always as a rule,
Speaker 2: but I think often. And a show that we are
Speaker 2: working on now, we'd set in the surfing industries, is
Speaker 2: based loosely on something that happened back in the seventies.
Speaker 3: We've been inspired by that and we'll.
Speaker 2: Moving forward in the storylining. But that was the initial
Speaker 2: pitch that came in. So we're looking for IP in
Speaker 2: the first instance, where is the depth? If it hasn't
Speaker 2: got there, Okay, not the end of the world. But
Speaker 2: the next thing we're looking for is who's going to
Speaker 2: write it? And this might again seem astranging to say,
Speaker 2: but there's so there's only so many amazing writers in
Speaker 2: the world. Networks are always looking to want to work
Speaker 2: with the best writers that they can.
Speaker 3: Writers often have their own ideas, and so it can
Speaker 3: be quite hard to attract a writer to somebody else's idea.
Speaker 3: So somebody walks in there with I've optioned this book,
Speaker 3: I've got this great writer on board to adapt it
Speaker 3: for me. I'm very very interested. It means that we
Speaker 3: can start to move forward with development because the third
Speaker 3: part of my the way I assess is is there
Speaker 3: a market, Is there a financing plan? Does it kind
Speaker 3: of make sense to take this out? And a simple
Speaker 3: way looking at it that way is if we had
Speaker 3: an amazing, amazing science fiction show that comes in with
Speaker 3: a great writer, but the budget is ten million dollars
Speaker 3: an episode. Now I cannot pitch that to the ABC
Speaker 3: or SBS, or for me, any of our networks locally,
Speaker 3: it's impossible. The only way you.
Speaker 2: Can pitch that is into the national spods and therefore
Speaker 2: you then need.
Speaker 3: Significant international talent to come forward.
Speaker 2: So we're looking at the feasibility in that last section,
Speaker 2: what do we think the market might want is it
Speaker 2: worth our time, money effort to push this show if
Speaker 2: we don't believe we can.
Speaker 3: Get it there?
Speaker 1: How about for people, because I imagine I'm sure that there'd
Speaker 1: be listeners going I've got a great idea for a
Speaker 1: TV show. Chris like, how do you like? What advice
Speaker 1: do you have for almost coaching people that do have
Speaker 1: dreams of pitching a TV idea and getting it onto screens?
Speaker 1: What do you say to people?
Speaker 2: So it's hard not to kill dreams, right, So we
Speaker 2: don't really do that because great ideas come from anywhere,
Speaker 2: and this is the problem. They can come from anywhere,
Speaker 2: and you don't have to be an inverted commerce TV
Speaker 2: producer or writer to bring up a new TV idea.
Speaker 2: We're lucky in Australia. Every single state and territory has
Speaker 2: a funding body. So in Victoria that's Film Victoria. In
Speaker 2: useth Wales that's Create newseth Wales. And these are government
Speaker 2: funded professional screen bodies and one of their key jobs
Speaker 2: is to develop the next level of talent to come
Speaker 2: through into the system, and so they are always looking
Speaker 2: for ideas, They are always looking at how they develop
Speaker 2: people to pitch. They will fund things as well and
Speaker 2: that's offered a very very good way to get my attention.
Speaker 3: If a show comes in which has been developed with
Speaker 3: one of those.
Speaker 2: Funding bodies and then they're looking for a producer, it
Speaker 2: instantly puts them towards the top of the queue because
Speaker 2: of one or two things. Firstly, a government body who
Speaker 2: ultimately may even end up helping us a finance the
Speaker 2: show has thought the idea is strong enough to warrant funding,
Speaker 2: so that's good, someone's done some work and assessment on it.
Speaker 2: And then secondly the idea is further developed professionally then
Speaker 2: it would have been if they came straight into me.
Speaker 2: So some of the work that we would have to
Speaker 2: do has already been done by the means. So if
Speaker 2: one of the keep its advices, look at your local
Speaker 2: funding body, and again that all over the world as well.
Speaker 2: Different states in America and the UK, Screen Yorkshire, all
Speaker 2: these things as many of similar bodies all over the world.
Speaker 2: But Australia has everyone in every state and territory, and
Speaker 2: we also have a federal funding body called Screen Australia,
Speaker 2: which again does something similar. So I would encourage people
Speaker 2: to look into those spaces, and I'll also encourage people
Speaker 2: to look at particularly SBS, Netflix and the ABC, all
Speaker 2: of which are doing things at the emerging is not
Speaker 2: quite the right work that would suggest very young.
Speaker 3: It doesn't mean that, it just means less experienced.
Speaker 2: I guess so people who are less experienced or people
Speaker 2: who have not got credits, they're always looking for short
Speaker 2: form ideas or online ideas and often will look there
Speaker 2: as well to see what can we turn into a
Speaker 2: long form TV show. So use the system in Australia
Speaker 2: to put your idea above everyone else's.
Speaker 3: And remember this is a competition.
Speaker 2: So there's so many ideas and so many people pitching
Speaker 2: things in how do you stand out? Use the funding bodies,
Speaker 2: use the networks at a junior level, and then listen
Speaker 2: maybe to something I've said, and know that others would say,
Speaker 2: what do I look for IP, talent and feasibility? Other
Speaker 2: Flushing companies might have slightly different ways of looking, but
Speaker 2: they'll broadly be the same. I would think, how does
Speaker 2: your idea fit into that pathway?
Speaker 1: Chris will be back very soon talking about how the
Speaker 1: head of one of the country's biggest production houses decides
Speaker 1: what to watch on TV and also what is he
Speaker 1: looking for in that very first episode to decide if
Speaker 1: a show is worth committing to. Now, if you're looking
Speaker 1: for more tips to improve the way that you work,
Speaker 1: I write a short fortnightly newsletter that contains three cool
Speaker 1: things that I've discovered that helped me work better, which
Speaker 1: range from interesting research findings through the gadgets and software
Speaker 1: that I'm loving. You can sign up for that at
Speaker 1: Howiwork dot co. That's how I Work dot co. That's
Speaker 1: something I'm curious about is the head of one of
Speaker 1: the country's biggest production houses. What's your approach to consuming content?
Speaker 2: So I skim content as much as I can. You know,
Speaker 2: one of the things you hear for networks often is
Speaker 2: please don't picture shows that we already have on our schedule,
Speaker 2: which does happen more than you might think. It's probably
Speaker 2: more likely to happen now because with the you know,
Speaker 2: the rise of the espots with Disney and Netflix, Amazon, Apple,
Speaker 2: it's impossible to watch everything, and so you are trying
Speaker 2: to get a center of what's on their platforms and
Speaker 2: trying to get a center of what's resonating Frustralian audiences.
Speaker 2: So I will watch the first episode of everything that
Speaker 2: I can be Entertainment factual, documentary, drama, film, whatever I can.
Speaker 3: I'll travel with the first episode.
Speaker 2: Hard to watch every episode because I'll never get anything
Speaker 2: else done. But try on the first one and then
Speaker 2: now and again. I find things that I absolutely love
Speaker 2: and want to watch for fun. But from a work
Speaker 2: point of you watch the first of everything you possibly
Speaker 2: can that's made out of Australia.
Speaker 1: So what are you looking for in that first episode.
Speaker 2: I'm looking to work out why they got the commission
Speaker 2: that I didn't. I'm looking to see who they've cast.
Speaker 2: I'm looking to see the degree of originality that's on
Speaker 2: a particular show. It's different for entertainment or factual or drama,
Speaker 2: but you fundamentally the same.
Speaker 3: I'm looking to see.
Speaker 2: We're in a wonderful business where all of my competitors
Speaker 2: work is completely public. We can see it all and
Speaker 2: so that if you use it rightly hopefully can help
Speaker 2: your work get better. Can also help you identify great
Speaker 2: talent that's out there. I wonder who the writer of
Speaker 2: that episode was. I really enjoyed it. I wonder who
Speaker 2: that you know more Junior character is a wonderful actor,
Speaker 2: but they haven't on a main role.
Speaker 3: I wonder who they are, what's their name? Where are they?
Speaker 2: And then also looking for how they're telling stories, how
Speaker 2: they connect, and then that allows me to have an opinion,
Speaker 2: not necessarily right, but an opinion of why that series
Speaker 2: was brought by the network, and that hopefully helps me
Speaker 2: then start to work out what do we do next
Speaker 2: to make sure we get the next one.
Speaker 1: Now something I experienced Chris, and I was actually talking
Speaker 1: to a friend yesterday. I feel like when I watched TV,
Speaker 1: I often experience TV guilt, where I feel like I
Speaker 1: could be doing something more productive in inverted commas with
Speaker 1: my time, like reading, for example, as opposed to actually
Speaker 1: doing work at my computer. And I want to know, like,
Speaker 1: what's it like for you when you watch TV, because
Speaker 1: that's part of your job, Like is it easy for
Speaker 1: you to just relax into it or are you actually
Speaker 1: in a kind of hypercritical analytical state sort of you know,
Speaker 1: analyzing things.
Speaker 3: Somewhere between the two? I think.
Speaker 2: So, I think if I really want to watch something
Speaker 2: for work and really probably analyze it, I will watch
Speaker 2: it at work and just take the time and sit down,
Speaker 2: press pause and look at the credits and figure that
Speaker 2: stuff out. And I do. I did that today on
Speaker 2: the show. I actually I just said, look at what
Speaker 2: was going on. But I think for the most part,
Speaker 2: you know, once you get to the evening sit down
Speaker 2: with your family or watching things for different reasons, so
Speaker 2: you know, I'm thoroughly enjoying watching One Division with my
Speaker 2: daughter who is fifteen, But that's a different that's not
Speaker 2: work in any central form apart from marveling though punintended
Speaker 2: at the brilliance of it and the cleverness of it,
Speaker 2: but beyond that's that's just a.
Speaker 3: Different level to where we sit.
Speaker 2: So I can sit back and enjoy that without being
Speaker 2: guilty or without working O years ago.
Speaker 3: Wow, that is a great piece of television.
Speaker 1: Where do you go to for recommendations? Because I imagine
Speaker 1: that there are probably people listening that you know, maybe
Speaker 1: they've binge watched something and they're looking for what should
Speaker 1: they consume next? And sometimes I feel that way. And
Speaker 1: also for my daughter who's seven and a half, I'm like,
Speaker 1: what should I be putting into her brain? TV wise?
Speaker 1: So we're like, where are the go to sources of
Speaker 1: inspiration and knowing what we should watch.
Speaker 2: I think that's tricky for me because I'm not one
Speaker 2: of the cool kids that I don't know any social media,
Speaker 2: so I don't get pushed it from that way in
Speaker 2: any sense, but I do.
Speaker 3: I mean, I think there's a professional recommendation.
Speaker 2: So you get people in and around our business that
Speaker 2: obviously a lot of your.
Speaker 3: Listeners won't be able to get. But you know, we
Speaker 3: get people.
Speaker 2: Saying grant riders saying, hey, you see this, this is amazing,
Speaker 2: and if they recommend it, you think, wow, I better
Speaker 2: watch this. But I also find there are semi professional
Speaker 2: websites that I take a lot of insight from.
Speaker 3: A great one that I would recommend.
Speaker 2: Called TV Tonight, which is completely free and TV Tonight
Speaker 2: is run by a general all Adobe Knox, and he
Speaker 2: will do reviews of things, but he'll also talk about
Speaker 2: the industry as a whole, said lots of great If
Speaker 2: anyone's interested in TV in Australia, it's a great place
Speaker 2: to go because it just summarizes what's happening every single day.
Speaker 2: It also publicizes things like the TV ratings and you
Speaker 2: know who's moving from A to B and who got
Speaker 2: commissioned and who didn't. But it almost has a section
Speaker 2: and the show that I watched so sorry it was,
Speaker 2: but the show was this morning was based off a
Speaker 2: recommendation from that website that I saw yesterday, but I
Speaker 2: must check that out, and I did today. So TV
Speaker 2: Tonight is something I go to. It's semi professional in
Speaker 2: terms of your listeners, but it's somewhere that I like
Speaker 2: to go to because I think it cuts through a
Speaker 2: lot of the high purposely you can sometimes get with reviewers.
Speaker 2: It actually goes into a more professional way of looking
Speaker 2: at TV, but still very much more enjoyment point of view.
Speaker 1: You mentioned that one of the one of the things
Speaker 1: that make sales easier is selling to friends, and people
Speaker 1: want to buy from people that they like. So what's
Speaker 1: been your approach to networking and building relationships over the
Speaker 1: many years that you've been in the industry.
Speaker 3: There's a few ways of doing it.
Speaker 2: We're lucky in our industry that there are a number
Speaker 2: of big social events at award nights or be that,
Speaker 2: big conferences that probably pre pandemic, of course, happened four
Speaker 2: or five times a year, and most of the sector
Speaker 2: would go along, and so you'd always attend those things,
Speaker 2: and you then build those connections, and you build those
Speaker 2: through social events and through dinners and through meetings and
Speaker 2: through tending things together. That's very important and becomes very
Speaker 2: important in twenty two as they all start to come
Speaker 2: online again. I think the other thing is always to
Speaker 2: remember that people move up and down and sideways. It
Speaker 2: isn't always a linear model or a linear environment, and
Speaker 2: so you want people to be a good person. Respect everyone,
Speaker 2: be authentic and truthful to who you are, but also
Speaker 2: respect who they are, and hopefully not just use connections
Speaker 2: and friendships to get the next commission, because it doesn't
Speaker 2: work that way. I think it comes down to trust,
Speaker 2: and it comes down to being someone who accepts rejection
Speaker 2: a lot, because on this side of the fence you
Speaker 2: get lots of rejection. Accept it well, and then the
Speaker 2: other thing you must do is deliver well. And so
Speaker 2: for all of the connections being fundamentally important, they are
Speaker 2: if your work isn't good enough, you won't get the
Speaker 2: next show. So your work has to always be as
Speaker 2: world class as it can be.
Speaker 3: Budget is the key thing there, and.
Speaker 2: Certainly it must hit the objectives of your buyer a
Speaker 2: friend or not. And then getting through the front door,
Speaker 2: I think is about a trust in the first place.
Speaker 1: Now you mentioned events is being important for maintaining networks,
Speaker 1: And I'd love to know how you approach an event
Speaker 1: because I mean, it would be really easy to just
Speaker 1: get stuck talking to one person for the whole night
Speaker 1: if you see it next to them. So what's your
Speaker 1: approach for really making the most of them?
Speaker 2: Well, look, it can happen, and I'm you know, I'm
Speaker 2: reasonbly well known. So if I go into a conference,
Speaker 2: people and I'm also six foot three tool with a
Speaker 2: big bald head, so people can normally find me. And
Speaker 2: I think I'm approachable and I like to think that
Speaker 2: people can and should come and talk to me and
Speaker 2: say gooday, and vice versa. But I've also going to
Speaker 2: be pragmatic that and it's the same for that person
Speaker 2: I'm talking to. Often if you go to there's a
Speaker 2: big conference called Screen Forever, which is run by the
Speaker 2: Screen Producers of Australia, which will run I think in
Speaker 2: March next year. It's normally November, and you might get
Speaker 2: twelve hundred people going to that event, and it costs
Speaker 2: a fair bit of money to attend, so I'm very
Speaker 2: clear that I'm attending what I'm often speaking of those
Speaker 2: things that.
Speaker 3: I can't afford to get stuck for an hour with someone.
Speaker 2: I've got a few minutes here and there to kind
Speaker 2: of meet people who have not booked in meetings, and
Speaker 2: I kind of owe it to them to do the
Speaker 2: same thing. So what I say to people is this is,
Speaker 2: you know, this might sound old fashioned, but it's the
Speaker 2: best way of doing I find. Bring a business card,
Speaker 2: say good day, you know, interrupt me if I'm having
Speaker 2: a cup of tea with someone, you know, as you
Speaker 2: want to, and then give me a card and I'll
Speaker 2: send you a note afterwards. I mean connect up in
Speaker 2: a slightly more quieter time where I'm not stuck in a.
Speaker 3: Corner and i can't get out out.
Speaker 2: But more importantly, they're not start wasting time and effort
Speaker 2: on me where they could use that time to make
Speaker 2: better connections or make more connections. So I'm quite keen
Speaker 2: on that to say, hey, let's we've got time now,
Speaker 2: great to meet you. Give me a card, or maybe
Speaker 2: we can exchange via the iPhone or whatever. But give
Speaker 2: me a card and then we'll know. We'll connect up
Speaker 2: in the next week or two. And then I always
Speaker 2: say them, you've got to send me a note, you know,
Speaker 2: You've got to kind of you've got to force this
Speaker 2: because I will get lots and lots of requests, which
Speaker 2: is good as they would as well. But you must
Speaker 2: make sure that you drop me a line and I'll
Speaker 2: get straight back to you. And I'm pretty good at
Speaker 2: doing that and meeting up with people.
Speaker 3: What I don't like.
Speaker 2: To receive lots of these conferences is pitches for ideas,
Speaker 2: So I try and stress that don't pitch met at conferences.
Speaker 3: One.
Speaker 2: I can't give you my full attention until I know
Speaker 2: that if you're pitching it to me at the conference,
Speaker 2: you're also pitch it to no doubt fifty other people.
Speaker 2: So make me feel a bit special and make this
Speaker 2: feel like this is for you as opposed to I'm
Speaker 2: at a conference, I'm just going to scatter gun an
Speaker 2: idea all over the So make a connection, make it quick,
Speaker 2: leave a business card, and then follow that up with
Speaker 2: me in the week following and we'll get a cup
Speaker 2: of TV.
Speaker 1: Now, I imagine that you would have received a lot of
Speaker 1: career advice over your illustrious career. I'd love to know
Speaker 1: what are some pieces of advice that have stuck with
Speaker 1: you and really served you well.
Speaker 2: There's two bits. One's facetious and funny maybe, but important.
Speaker 2: Other ones maybe more serious. So the first one was
Speaker 2: come from a wonderful former colleague of mine called Sandra Levy.
Speaker 2: And Sandra used to with the direction of TV at
Speaker 2: the ABC and a esteemed media leader, wonderful, wonderful person
Speaker 2: who gained my break at the ABC when she didn't
Speaker 2: need to, and she offered me the job as head
Speaker 2: of production, probably years before I was ready. And I
Speaker 2: came up to Sydney for Melbourne and I was in
Speaker 2: my jeans and T shirt and bounded into the office
Speaker 2: ready for this meeting with Sandra. That sound was quite
Speaker 2: formidable and a very I didn't know her at all well,
Speaker 2: so thinking, oh, okay, fine, So I went in there
Speaker 2: and we had the contentment of the job.
Speaker 3: Do you want the job? Yes, I'd love the job. Good,
Speaker 3: go and buy yourself a suit.
Speaker 2: With her advice, and I think what that meant to mean,
Speaker 2: I took it kind of heart, was smart enough, you know,
Speaker 2: be professional. This is this is important, and you've got
Speaker 2: to have an image to some degree that you know
Speaker 2: the chords with the organization you work for or the
Speaker 2: role that you hold, or of course the image you.
Speaker 3: Want to project.
Speaker 2: And that even though you may not quite meant it
Speaker 2: in that way.
Speaker 3: I took that away.
Speaker 2: Actually advice around Remember you're always on show, you're always auditioning,
Speaker 2: you're always performing, you're always pitching, and so make sure
Speaker 2: that how you're projecting yourself matches who you are working with.
Speaker 2: And so I've always get that very front center. And
Speaker 2: the second one, which is really I think for producers
Speaker 2: to take heed of. You know people on this side
Speaker 2: offense that I am. As I was leaving the ABC
Speaker 2: to join match Box, they were owned by NBC, and
Speaker 2: my NBC boss said to me, the name as Michael
Speaker 2: Michael Edlston and have a really amazing leader who I
Speaker 2: learned so much from. Michael said, now, remember at the ABC,
Speaker 2: you can do nothing. You can send no emails, make
Speaker 2: no phone calls, never leave your office if you like,
Speaker 2: and the work will pile up outside your door. You'll
Speaker 2: open your door and there'll be a thousand people wanting
Speaker 2: you to sign something and answer this and do that,
Speaker 2: because you're in a broadcaster and work just happens. Once
Speaker 2: you leave that and you join the other side where
Speaker 2: you have to generate everything. If you do nothing, nothing happens.
Speaker 2: You have to generate everything, Generate momentum, generate those phone calls,
Speaker 2: generate relationships, and generate a culture. And I've always kept
Speaker 2: that really front and center, that if you do nothing
Speaker 2: outside of a most jobs, if you do nothing, nothing happens.
Speaker 2: You have to generate everything and make it happen. And
Speaker 2: so I've kept that really close to me as i've
Speaker 2: my career has continued on.
Speaker 1: Now for people that want to connect with the work
Speaker 1: that you're pretty seeing your good self, Chris, what is
Speaker 1: the best way for listeners to do that?
Speaker 2: I use LinkedIn quite a lot. That's the only social
Speaker 2: media that I'm on, and people can find me. There
Speaker 2: is a simple way of doing it. It's reasonably easy
Speaker 2: to find me because I've got a very unique name,
Speaker 2: so I can't hide, which is good.
Speaker 3: And again I'm very.
Speaker 2: Happy to take unswers of emails, but too they want advice.
Speaker 2: I'm very happy to kind of give you my two
Speaker 2: penage worth of how I see the world, really happy
Speaker 2: to And there's an advice I gave to a group
Speaker 2: the other day I was talking to. I won't name
Speaker 2: who the organization was, becauld it'd be unfair, but talking
Speaker 2: about sixty people on a zoom call and as myself
Speaker 2: another very senior producer from a different company. And at
Speaker 2: the end of it, I said, and they're all emerging
Speaker 2: filmmakers in their own way. At the end of it,
Speaker 2: I said, I think the most important thing in our
Speaker 2: business is being connected.
Speaker 3: And it's a competition. There are thousands of.
Speaker 2: People who would love to be in our business and
Speaker 2: there are not that many opportunities, and so the best
Speaker 2: way to do is connect to people. Connect on me,
Speaker 2: connect to my colleague who's on the pound as well,
Speaker 2: and others. Go and find out where they are. You
Speaker 2: can find people. You just have to figure it out.
Speaker 2: And there are six or so people I think on
Speaker 2: this call, and I said, I bet you're on a
Speaker 2: few only a handful.
Speaker 3: Contact mate.
Speaker 2: Even though I've said could do it, four people did
Speaker 2: of that, meaning that's my consistent it. Maybe it's just
Speaker 2: me and man, maybe it's me, but I don't think
Speaker 2: of it. I think it's kind of one of those
Speaker 2: things that people don't do it. They don't reach out
Speaker 2: enough because they feel I don't know if they feel rejectioned.
Speaker 2: I fear that I won't respond. I fear that they're
Speaker 2: going to be you know that it's a silly thing
Speaker 2: that they I don't know, but I do know that
Speaker 2: people have got breaks by just contacting me and being
Speaker 2: in and around the business and starting at the bottom
Speaker 2: off and working the way up, or just being opportunistic
Speaker 2: and sending in a CV or having a cup of tea,
Speaker 2: or just saying, hey, who do you know? You know
Speaker 2: I want to work in this part of the business.
Speaker 2: Do you know anyone at Amazon?
Speaker 3: Yeah? I do, I do.
Speaker 2: Actually, I think canec you someone? Or do you know
Speaker 2: it's on the AB said yeah, sure, where you want
Speaker 2: to go. People need to reach out, and if they
Speaker 2: don't reach out, they're on their own, and it's just
Speaker 2: much harder on their own. So I found this in
Speaker 2: my career that many people in rooms they don't reach out,
Speaker 2: they don't connect, and I feel that people should try.
Speaker 2: And it not just with Mate, but in the industry.
Speaker 2: People are very giving because we've all got our own
Speaker 2: journey to get to where we are, and it's nearly
Speaker 2: always started by someone like me reaching out to someone
Speaker 2: more senior and having that first cup of tea. And
Speaker 2: once you do that, you started, You started the game,
Speaker 2: and you never know where to start workstop. So I
Speaker 2: fully encourage people track me down. I'm on LinkedIn. You
Speaker 2: can message me and we'll go for there. People do
Speaker 2: and it works.
Speaker 1: That's awesome famous last words. And I can so relate
Speaker 1: to that. I was actually giving this evening presentation a
Speaker 1: few days ago to about four hundred people online. And
Speaker 1: you know, and I always invite people when I'm doing
Speaker 1: virtual keynotes or real real can it's face to face keynotes,
Speaker 1: to please reach out if you have any questions or
Speaker 1: if there's anything I can do to help. And it's
Speaker 1: like one or two people, but then they say, you're
Speaker 1: probably inundated with emails, so hopefully you'll have time to
Speaker 1: read this, and it's like, yeah, I've got time. So
Speaker 1: I think that's such good advice for people, Chris, just
Speaker 1: to reach out. And I hope that you are inundated
Speaker 1: with messages on LinkedIn as a result of this chat.
Speaker 1: So thank you so much for your time. I've loved
Speaker 1: getting this amazing view into an industry that I know
Speaker 1: very little about.
Speaker 3: So thank you. Thanks you for having bying me. It's
Speaker 3: been fantastic. And yeah, I hope listens enjoy a conversation.
Speaker 1: Yes, reach out, Hey there, I hope you liked my
Speaker 1: chat with Chris. Now, if you are not a subscriber
Speaker 1: or follower of How I Work, you might want to
Speaker 1: hit that subscribe or follow button right now, because over
Speaker 1: the next few weeks, I'm going to be releasing some
Speaker 1: of my absolute favorite interviews and episodes that I have
Speaker 1: done in the last year while I take a little
Speaker 1: bit of a break over the summer holidays, So stay
Speaker 1: tuned for those starting from next week. How I Work
Speaker 1: is produced by Inventium with production support from Dead Set Studios.
Speaker 1: The producer for this episode was Jenna Koder, and thank
Speaker 1: you to Martin Nimba who does the audio mix for
Speaker 1: every episode and makes everything sound better than it would
Speaker 1: have otherwise. See you next time.