Speaker 1: It's in the news today, but it was actually on
Speaker 1: TV Reload the podcast last weep their line.
Speaker 2: Hey guys, welcome back to TV Reload. I want to
Speaker 2: thank you for clicking and downloading on today's episode with
Speaker 2: Kirk Docker, one of my favorite TV producers, who is
Speaker 2: back on the podcast to discuss his new TV series
Speaker 2: on ABC called I Was Actually There, which is a
Speaker 2: brilliant follow up to his award winning series You Can't Ask.
Speaker 2: That he has been acknowledged with multiple awards and that
Speaker 2: you Can't ask that format is the most successful series
Speaker 2: in ABC history, selling to thirty two territories and broadcasting
Speaker 2: in nine different languages worldwide. One of my favorite things
Speaker 2: about Kirk is when it comes to his content, no
Speaker 2: subject is off topic. Through Kirk's work over the years,
Speaker 2: he kind of has this methodology that every human, no
Speaker 2: matter what they believe or how high their stature is,
Speaker 2: that they all share a call value and that is
Speaker 2: the desire to be understood. Today we unpack the bold
Speaker 2: new six part document series which explores the defining moments
Speaker 2: of our recent history through the eyes and ears and
Speaker 2: voices of those who witness them first, from Port Arthur
Speaker 2: to the Beatles, and even to the depths of the
Speaker 2: beacon filled minds. Each topic is compelling and I think
Speaker 2: you will walk away wanting to devour this whole series,
Speaker 2: which is now available to watch on iView. We will
Speaker 2: unpack what happened to you can't ask that if it
Speaker 2: has run its course, could have come back, and where
Speaker 2: that conversation with ABC is currently at. There is a
Speaker 2: great opportunity to talk about how Kirk manages to get
Speaker 2: the crucial human element out of his interviewees, how long
Speaker 2: it takes to film and edit each episode, and what
Speaker 2: he wants people to feel with his brand new series.
Speaker 2: We will talk about the Companion podcast and what made
Speaker 2: him want to release a longer edit of some of
Speaker 2: the contributors retelling their story. Kirk shares some really fascinating
Speaker 2: behind the scenes elements to the show and why he
Speaker 2: is more fascinated with some of the nuances and mannerisms
Speaker 2: over what is actually being said. There is, of course,
Speaker 2: so much to unpack with Kirk, so sit back and
Speaker 2: relax as we unpack the wonderful world of I was
Speaker 2: actually there. This is very exciting, by the way, because
Speaker 2: this show is amazing.
Speaker 1: Oh good. It's nice to hear that. Look, you make
Speaker 1: these things in silo, and you like it, and you're
Speaker 1: doing your best work that you possibly can, and you
Speaker 1: think that you're putting something out to the world. But
Speaker 1: as we know, there's a lot of content that's being
Speaker 1: made at the moment, and getting cut through is really
Speaker 1: really difficult, and you know, these things could quite as
Speaker 1: easily just disappear into the list of all these other
Speaker 1: shows that are being made. So trick is trying to
Speaker 1: create something that people want to actually talk about afterwards
Speaker 1: and discuss and feel something, hopefully learn something and create
Speaker 1: conversations and all that sort of stuff. So, yeah, hopefully
Speaker 1: it's going to do that.
Speaker 2: Was there a lot of pressure for you to follow
Speaker 2: up the success if you can't ask that with something
Speaker 2: equally compelling.
Speaker 1: Look, I was definitely aware of the difficult follow up
Speaker 1: album of creating something. Look, you can't ask That was
Speaker 1: something that we got lucky with in a sense. It
Speaker 1: was a small idea that that was probably uniquely timed
Speaker 1: twenty fifteen when that first happened that it just it
Speaker 1: scratched a niche at the time. This idea of political
Speaker 1: correctness and what we can say and can't say was
Speaker 1: something that was being grappled with openly in the public discourse,
Speaker 1: and we felt like there was something that could be
Speaker 1: added to that mix. And then, you know, even I
Speaker 1: remember in season two thinking we're going to run out
Speaker 1: of groups. You know how many misunderstood groups there were,
Speaker 1: and then we expanded what that idea of being misunderstood was.
Speaker 1: I don't think I felt the pressure from anyone out
Speaker 1: in the world, but I did have pressure myself to go, Okay,
Speaker 1: this thing has done well, and what am I going
Speaker 1: to do next? How am I going to leverage this
Speaker 1: great thing that we've done to do something new. I
Speaker 1: wanted to take the learnings of you kin't ask that,
Speaker 1: and I've done this before. Years ago. I did a
Speaker 1: website online and we got some money to make a pilot,
Speaker 1: and we sort of ignored all the good parts about
Speaker 1: what that project was and tried we went, oh, we've
Speaker 1: suddenly got a budget now and let's just go nuts.
Speaker 1: We lost the soul of the project in a way.
Speaker 1: So with this new one I did, I don't want
Speaker 1: to forget the learnings that we had from yukon't ask that,
Speaker 1: the things that work so well, It's cut from the
Speaker 1: same cloth. As you can ask that, but it's a
Speaker 1: new suit. We're taking these things that we'd loved, speaking
Speaker 1: to people that normally don't appear on camera, understanding stories
Speaker 1: that we that we feel like we are stereotyped in
Speaker 1: our eyes, and this sort of beautiful way of interviewing
Speaker 1: or intercut stories. But then the sort of applying it
Speaker 1: to new craft and taking a moment an idea. People
Speaker 1: who are far more linked as opposed to you can
Speaker 1: ask that where they're very they're linked by a label,
Speaker 1: but that's sort of it. People here at linked genuinely
Speaker 1: come across each other's paths, are involved in each other's
Speaker 1: stories for this particular period of time, and it was
Speaker 1: different storytelling because we're telling one story where everyone's giving
Speaker 1: their bits, their perspectives, their take, versus the smattering of
Speaker 1: different stories. So yeah, to go back to your original question,
Speaker 1: I was nervous about progressing on from ukn't ask that
Speaker 1: and doing something that you didn't want to people to say, oh,
Speaker 1: it's yeah, it's good, but you should have kept doing
Speaker 1: You can't ask that. You do have that year in
Speaker 1: the back of your mind. You can't just keep sitting
Speaker 1: on that one idea. I did want to be known
Speaker 1: as the you can't ask that guy for my whole career.
Speaker 1: There's other stories to tell and another steps in your
Speaker 1: own personal progression you want to make, and just very
Speaker 1: simply in this we used archive, We shot stuff in
Speaker 1: location and use that as part of the storytelling. We
Speaker 1: didn't have this card system that we did. It was
Speaker 1: all intricately woven. It was this time of day, so
Speaker 1: there were these new elements that we bought in. Didn't
Speaker 1: really think of you can't Ask that as a format
Speaker 1: when we started it, but it became one that around
Speaker 1: the world they made their own versions of it, and
Speaker 1: that was really exciting to see a French version, or
Speaker 1: a Dutch version, or a Norwegian version. And so with
Speaker 1: this one, you thought, God, this actually could really work
Speaker 1: in other parts of the world too. So how do
Speaker 1: you create something that can be transplanted somewhere else and
Speaker 1: they can plug in their events and it can work
Speaker 1: as well. How do you create a format where you
Speaker 1: can put in a tragedy and you can put in
Speaker 1: a really happy, amazing moment and it still works. And
Speaker 1: so that's a really fun part of the process too.
Speaker 1: Applying all the learnings you can't ask that to create
Speaker 1: a format where we can almost put in any moment,
Speaker 1: any event, and you can analyze it from the perspective
Speaker 1: of those that were just there. And that's the simplicity
Speaker 1: of it, despite there being all these little complex moving parts.
Speaker 2: Was there a reason that you decided to arrest you
Speaker 2: can't ask that? I mean, were they wanting more of
Speaker 2: that show? And you were like, Okay, I don't want
Speaker 2: to be the you can't ask that guy.
Speaker 1: So seven season, seven years of any one idea is
Speaker 1: a long time, and I wanted to get out of
Speaker 1: pores you can't ask, So let's just say it that way,
Speaker 1: pores you kin't ask that while we still had ideas
Speaker 1: that we weren't necessarily being pushed, that we weren't just
Speaker 1: scraping the cupboard for any old idea so that we
Speaker 1: could remain on air. You know, I feel like I've
Speaker 1: got another season or two of you can't ask that
Speaker 1: ideas that are sitting on the shelf. So I wanted
Speaker 1: to sort of pause it while we felt like it
Speaker 1: was still fresh or still doing things that you felt
Speaker 1: like the audience was still keen to see it, that
Speaker 1: it hadn't run its course. So I thought that was important.
Speaker 1: I also felt the itch to do something new that
Speaker 1: I didn't. You know, if we've done another year or two,
Speaker 1: that's almost a decade of doing one idea. And I
Speaker 1: was a little bit fearful of forgetting how to make
Speaker 1: other content that that was my only I only knew
Speaker 1: how to make that, so and I wanted to apply
Speaker 1: my craft. You know, I'm very fascinated with the interview
Speaker 1: about asking questions about understanding people and experiences, and I
Speaker 1: speak about it. I go into these organizations and I
Speaker 1: unpack this interview process. I write about it, I think
Speaker 1: about it a lot. I'm very fascinated by it, and
Speaker 1: I wanted to apply my craft in a different scenario.
Speaker 1: I felt like i'd sort of in a lot of
Speaker 1: ways mastered that you can't ask that style of interview,
Speaker 1: so I wanted to do that too. So there's personal
Speaker 1: growth in it as well as the desire to create
Speaker 1: something new and to also I suppose get out. Yeah,
Speaker 1: like I said, before the show got stale or people
Speaker 1: got sick of it, or they didn't want it anymore,
Speaker 1: that you want to sort of not head out on top,
Speaker 1: because that's not how I really think about it. But
Speaker 1: head out while it's well, it's still good and fresh.
Speaker 1: You are the master, though, at storytelling. I think you
Speaker 1: can tell story worry very well. Even when people listening
Speaker 1: to this now, they'll be like, you know, you tell
Speaker 1: a story with a beginning, in the middle and an end,
Speaker 1: and you don't leave out the detail. But people don't
Speaker 1: get a chance to probably see when you're behind the
Speaker 1: camera or maybe not even in this interview, is that
Speaker 1: you're an incredible listener, and you're an incredible listener to detail,
Speaker 1: and that is such a skill. Look, it's a weird
Speaker 1: thing for me to be on this side talking as
Speaker 1: much as I am, because my natural place is behind
Speaker 1: the camera and listening. It's interesting you pull up on
Speaker 1: the details. The details is what makes things trusting and
Speaker 1: real and not cliche. And getting people to when I'm
Speaker 1: interviewing people, asking questions, getting them to reflect on what
Speaker 1: they've learned or how they've grown, or how it changed
Speaker 1: them or what impact it had on them, getting to
Speaker 1: sort of think past that second or third or fourth
Speaker 1: level of how they might tell that story to someone
Speaker 1: in their normal life, to get new revelations, to find
Speaker 1: curiosity in the weirdness of stuff that to me, is
Speaker 1: just the joy of it all. We're such a what
Speaker 1: a nation of turning our nose up to things, to
Speaker 1: finding problems with people, to disagreeing to not liking something
Speaker 1: because it's so different from how we live as opposed
Speaker 1: to looking at with the lens of what are you doing?
Speaker 1: Why does that bring you joy? And how do I
Speaker 1: get that? And what's so interesting about that? And let
Speaker 1: me stand in your shoes for a little period of time.
Speaker 1: That's the That's the beautiful thing about being able to
Speaker 1: interview someone is that for a period of time, maybe
Speaker 1: two hours. I've got this person who's going to sit
Speaker 1: there and be open about their life, and I get
Speaker 1: to stand in their shoes and understand it. It's so
Speaker 1: good as opposed to how we might exist at a
Speaker 1: pub where we're fighting for our chance to tell our
Speaker 1: two cents, our little bit, how good we're going, what's
Speaker 1: great for us. Sometimes I actually really struggle with that
Speaker 1: when someone says, oh, how's this thing going, and I'm like, oh,
Speaker 1: how how do I do it? That keeps their interests
Speaker 1: so they don't sort of glaze over and move. You know,
Speaker 1: we've all felt that in public interactions where you're trying,
Speaker 1: in some ways entertain someone with your response so they
Speaker 1: don't get bored of you, Whereas I feel like if
Speaker 1: you're just curious, what that does is unlock someone and
Speaker 1: then they will start telling all these things. And you know,
Speaker 1: I can be interested almost anything.
Speaker 2: I think very few people get a chance to tell
Speaker 2: their story without being interrupted. And if you can stay
Speaker 2: quiet and you can be curious and you can be interested,
Speaker 2: people will tell you anything. I think we all have
Speaker 2: a yearning to want to hear have our story told,
Speaker 2: and I think with this as well. I was a
Speaker 2: little bit frightened because I flew in blind to watching
Speaker 2: the episodes. I was like, oh wow, I know what
Speaker 2: this is. I'm going to watch it. But I just
Speaker 2: was scared about unpacking some of these things, like Port Arthur.
Speaker 2: It's a very sensitive topic. A lot of people have
Speaker 2: told their story in very different forms sixty minutes, et cetera,
Speaker 2: but no one's ever unpacked it like we've seen and
Speaker 2: what Australia will see in this first episode, you learn
Speaker 2: way more than we've ever learned about what happened in
Speaker 2: Port Arthur that day. Might I had to pick my
Speaker 2: drawer off the floor because something like this that happened
Speaker 2: so long ago. I've all of a sudden just given
Speaker 2: a fist full of information about it, and I learned
Speaker 2: so much in just a small period of time from
Speaker 2: these people.
Speaker 1: Oh thank you for saying so. Look, at the end
Speaker 1: of the day, it's just a series of people talking
Speaker 1: about what it's like to be in their shoes that
Speaker 1: particular day. So we're not trying to You're not going
Speaker 1: to come away from this episode knowing all the numbers,
Speaker 1: the facts, the details that you can go and read
Speaker 1: on Wikipedia later.
Speaker 2: Yeah, but you don't want that either. No, people have
Speaker 2: still frightened by port Arthur.
Speaker 1: That's right. Get all those details elsewhere and you can
Speaker 1: find out the sort of the wrap up of any
Speaker 1: one of these moments in documentaries or in sixty minutes,
Speaker 1: all that sort of stuff. But what you're going to
Speaker 1: get from this show is like sitting down next to
Speaker 1: someone at a dinner party or something and then finding
Speaker 1: out that they had this experience and then saying them, go,
Speaker 1: what did you see and what was that like? That's
Speaker 1: sort of the premise behind that's the beginning point of
Speaker 1: all these interviews. It's like imagining you're getting access to
Speaker 1: someone who's gone through an extraordinary moment, and you get
Speaker 1: to I got to just ask them what did you see,
Speaker 1: what was it like, how did it impact you? And
Speaker 1: what are you rem because part of this, too is
Speaker 1: about memory and what sticks in your mind and what doesn't,
Speaker 1: and none of that is right or wrong. It's fascinating.
Speaker 1: You know, one of the participants in the portart episode,
Speaker 1: she was the GP And some of this isn't really
Speaker 1: included ultimately in the episode because we can only include
Speaker 1: so much of each person, but one of the things
Speaker 1: she often would say in the interview is I can't remember.
Speaker 1: I can't remember blah blah blah. And to me, that
Speaker 1: was fascinating. What details stick in your mind and when
Speaker 1: they stick in their mind. For some of these people,
Speaker 1: it's in minute, detailed, incredible detail, sounds and smells and
Speaker 1: intricate stuff, and then there's other huge blanks that they
Speaker 1: just can't remember it all, and that's how the mind works.
Speaker 1: Then there's other stuff where people get details wrong. You know,
Speaker 1: in one of the episodes, a gentleman, no, it doesn't
Speaker 1: argue with me, but he's you know, he's telling me
Speaker 1: this detail and they're through research. I knew that detail
Speaker 1: is telling me was wrong. And I said to him, look,
Speaker 1: I actually think it's this, And even in the interview
Speaker 1: he wouldn't admit it. He would say it's this all
Speaker 1: that for me. I found that very interesting, how details,
Speaker 1: how they get forged in your memory. The other thing
Speaker 1: I found interesting, here's multiple people hurt the same thing,
Speaker 1: where they might be standing somewhat near each other, yet
Speaker 1: their experience is vastly different how it impacts them. And
Speaker 1: look the boxing n tsunami, for example, there's people just
Speaker 1: talk about very broadly who've gone back to Thailand, who
Speaker 1: have gone to the memorial see Thailand as almost like
Speaker 1: a sacred place where someone's been lost, and they see
Speaker 1: it as a very special place. Others haven't been swimming. Again,
Speaker 1: here's two people who have seen the same thing from
Speaker 1: the same angle, yet how it's impacted them is vastly different.
Speaker 1: So what we're trying to say with this show is
Speaker 1: that there's no right or wrong answer. That you and
Speaker 1: I can stand next to each other and we can
Speaker 1: experience it completely differently and we can both be correct
Speaker 1: in a lot of ways. In twenty twenty four, we've
Speaker 1: lost this idea that we can have different perspectives that
Speaker 1: we can have different takes on something. It's like you're
Speaker 1: right and you're wrong, but actually we can both be
Speaker 1: right and we can compare notes, and there's all these
Speaker 1: different reasons why something might affect you in different ways.
Speaker 1: But there's this idea that Okay, well you're at Port Arthur,
Speaker 1: everyone's traumatized. Well, actually that's not the truth. There's definitely
Speaker 1: some people who are still very much traumatized by that
Speaker 1: day and can't talk about it and don't want to
Speaker 1: talk about it. There's others who definitely still feel trauma
Speaker 1: and are triggered by it, but feel like they can
Speaker 1: handle it when it comes up, and they wanted to
Speaker 1: share their story even if it felt very sensitive. There
Speaker 1: was others that felt like they could talk about it
Speaker 1: very very openly. They've definitely come to terms that they've
Speaker 1: moved on. There was a day in their life that happened,
Speaker 1: but it isn't the defining day of their life. And
Speaker 1: then there's sort of other things in between that depending
Speaker 1: on what your role was, what you saw, depending on
Speaker 1: your personality type and your character traits and the support
Speaker 1: that you had, and all these other things that add
Speaker 1: into it. There's not just this one blanket you're traumatized,
Speaker 1: you're not traumatized. But that's sort of how we often
Speaker 1: look at these sorts of things, don't.
Speaker 2: You think as well, Like we've all had trauma or grief.
Speaker 2: We've all had these emotions, and we feel like we
Speaker 2: can't share it, like there's something about it where we
Speaker 2: bury it deep inside. But for most people, I feel
Speaker 2: like it's sharing your story. It actually helps just sharing
Speaker 2: your story. I remember, even on Saturday night, I unpacked
Speaker 2: something that is terrible that had happened to me. It
Speaker 2: was sixteen years ago when I lost my father, and
Speaker 2: I felt embarrassed at the time while I was sharing
Speaker 2: that story because someone was asking about it. But then
Speaker 2: I woke up the next day and I felt like
Speaker 2: this huge weight had been taken off me, and I
Speaker 2: thought to myself, how long have I been walking around
Speaker 2: with that?
Speaker 1: What you're saying is a massive truth that I think
Speaker 1: a lot of us don't realize that through interviewing literally
Speaker 1: thousands of people, what is respected is when people are honest, truthful,
Speaker 1: they're authentic. They just say it how it is. They're
Speaker 1: not trying to manipulate the story to sound better. They're
Speaker 1: not trying to rehearse the story to the nth degree,
Speaker 1: so it comes out perfectly. That just comes across as false,
Speaker 1: It comes across as practiced, it comes across as manipulative.
Speaker 1: We all think that we want to be these perfect
Speaker 1: publics speakers, where we have these eloquent stories and we're
Speaker 1: funny in this and that. But what really resonates is
Speaker 1: when people are just honest. They're truthful. The people that
Speaker 1: have appeared, you know, on YU can't as sad and
Speaker 1: appear on this show. They own their story. They've come
Speaker 1: to terms with it, even if they might struggle with
Speaker 1: certain bits, they may not love all the certain bits
Speaker 1: in some respects, they've accepted who they are and they're like,
Speaker 1: this is me, take it all, leave it. That's why,
Speaker 1: you know a lot of people would say to me, Oh,
Speaker 1: but what's going to happen to these people when they
Speaker 1: share all this honesty you know on TV. I'm just gonna
Speaker 1: say they're going to get respected. That's what's going to happen.
Speaker 1: People are going to look at them and go, my god,
Speaker 1: I wish I had the courage of them, or I
Speaker 1: really identify with that, or oh my god, I thought
Speaker 1: you were so different, But in n aatural fact, now
Speaker 1: I know the truth. I understand this. We're all yearning
Speaker 1: to connect with truth, and we're not that different from
Speaker 1: each other really. All these things, these labels, these traits
Speaker 1: are just that's all they are, is labels. But underneath it,
Speaker 1: we're so similar in so many ways. We want to
Speaker 1: be loved, we want to feel connection. These people sharing
Speaker 1: these things, it's only a positive. Some people aren't in
Speaker 1: a situation to do it, they haven't necessarily feel like
Speaker 1: they're too delicate or tender to necessarily share those things.
Speaker 1: But if you've come to a place where you feel
Speaker 1: like you can share it, feel like you can take
Speaker 1: the risks, you've got the support around you, or whatever
Speaker 1: it is to share it, it becomes, like you said,
Speaker 1: a shared load. It doesn't become the elephant in the
Speaker 1: room anymore. It becomes something that is just part of
Speaker 1: who you are. It's not something that's hidden, it's just
Speaker 1: the truth.
Speaker 2: One of the strange things that I've noticed about television,
Speaker 2: and you know, people keep saying, oh, the death of television,
Speaker 2: you know, death of free to wear too much reality.
Speaker 2: And one of the things that I've noticed about people
Speaker 2: when I have a conversation with them about why they're
Speaker 2: not watching some of the big free toware networks anymore
Speaker 2: is because they can't put their finger on it. They
Speaker 2: really can't. But so much of television these days is
Speaker 2: manipulated content to make it perfect. TV presenters that speak
Speaker 2: perfectly in unison. It used to be very impressive. But
Speaker 2: I actually think that that's kind of where the death
Speaker 2: of television could come from, because an actual fact, people
Speaker 2: have always watched television to see themselves. And the more
Speaker 2: and more we see these word perfect TV presenters and
Speaker 2: stories being put together. If it's unauthentic, if it's not real,
Speaker 2: it doesn't matter how perfect it is, people have stopped watching.
Speaker 1: You know, I suppose entertainment versus maybe something that has
Speaker 1: a deeper impact in this place for entertainment. Don't get
Speaker 1: me wrong of frivolous entertainment, but I suppose that's why
Speaker 1: I like interviewing people outside of the cities. You know,
Speaker 1: in the city and the bigger the city, people become
Speaker 1: more media trained, maybe more times on their phone, they're
Speaker 1: filming themselves, they're broadcasting themselves, and become more practiced at it.
Speaker 1: Whereas the further you head away from the big major cities,
Speaker 1: people are less that way, and so you just feel
Speaker 1: like it's a bit more. You know, Here I am
Speaker 1: take it or leave it, or if you get you know,
Speaker 1: some of the older generations. I've lived in my skin
Speaker 1: long enough. I don't give a shit anymore. Here I am.
Speaker 1: I'm with you, like I like to see the imperfections,
Speaker 1: the weirdness, the strains, the bits of people that haven't
Speaker 1: been edited out to make them, to make them perfect.
Speaker 1: That stuff doesn't feel I can't identify with that either.
Speaker 2: It's funny. I remember reading this thing. I was in
Speaker 2: New York in two thousand and seven and I read
Speaker 2: this thing. Meryl Street was being inducted into the Hall
Speaker 2: of Fame at the Lincoln Center and there was an
Speaker 2: interview in the brochure and someone the interviewer had said,
Speaker 2: what's the connection between you and the audience? And she
Speaker 2: said it was the way in which she studied the
Speaker 2: small things that people do when people aren't watching. She
Speaker 2: was like, that's the currency, because that's what people want
Speaker 2: to see from me. They don't. I'm saying the lines,
Speaker 2: and I could say the lines in a myriad of
Speaker 2: different ways. But what people are actually watching and enjoying.
Speaker 2: Is just those weird little things that we do every day.
Speaker 2: That's what people are fascinated by. That's what they want
Speaker 2: to see, That's what they've paid their money for.
Speaker 1: It's interesting you say that because when you interview someone
Speaker 1: for a show. And I call one of the participants
Speaker 1: the other day and I said, you know, because there
Speaker 1: was a publication, was interested in interviewing her. This is
Speaker 1: bridget from the port art episode The Chef. And I
Speaker 1: said to her, I said, it's weird, you know, toying
Speaker 1: you on the phone, because I suspent two hours with
Speaker 1: you that one particular day last year. I said, but
Speaker 1: I've sat with you in the edit sweet for weeks
Speaker 1: and weeks and weeks, and I know every one of
Speaker 1: your little movements and ways that you say things at
Speaker 1: little quirks. And I said to her, I love the
Speaker 1: way that you did this little thing, or this little
Speaker 1: movement you did, or this funny little way that you
Speaker 1: said it. And it becomes it's exactly right. You stop
Speaker 1: in the edit suite necessarily loving the line they said,
Speaker 1: but you love the way a funny little look they
Speaker 1: give you. It's these it's these little tiny moments in
Speaker 1: there that make that person endearing to you or you
Speaker 1: love them for it. But if you could, if you
Speaker 1: wrote it all down, if you watch the episode, no
Speaker 1: one's going to really see those bits. I think they
Speaker 1: unconsciously get into you. But when you sit with someone
Speaker 1: for weeks and weeks and weeks and weeks, you start
Speaker 1: loving all those little bits. So I totally get what
Speaker 1: Meryl Streep's saying there. She's sort of doing and reverse,
Speaker 1: she's sort of almost sitting in a live edit sweet
Speaker 1: and picking up those little intricacies of someone and then
Speaker 1: bringing into a performance. And that's what makes someone real
Speaker 1: as opposed to I suppose, like you said, Wooden, doing
Speaker 1: doing lines how long?
Speaker 2: Because I know with you kin't ask that you only
Speaker 2: had me there for an hour. I feel like you
Speaker 2: probably thought I was.
Speaker 1: I think I had you there a bit longer than that.
Speaker 1: I can I can find your old interview actually and
Speaker 1: look at generally, and I got longer and longer as
Speaker 1: we went through this. You can't ask that series generally,
Speaker 1: I'd put aside two hours per person, and you can't
Speaker 1: ask that. And maybe some time for some photos at
Speaker 1: the end. You can ask that people were sort of
Speaker 1: even eight people, and everyone got the same set of questions,
Speaker 1: and in some respects, I gave them all the same
Speaker 1: amount of time. Whereas in this show, because it's chronological,
Speaker 1: it starts. It doesn't look not every episode starts there
Speaker 1: was a day like any other. Some start in the
Speaker 1: midst of the of the of the action. Some you
Speaker 1: don't know. You know on boxing day, you know, you
Speaker 1: hear these people these sliding door moments at the start
Speaker 1: where they're saying, I was going to go here, but
Speaker 1: I ended up going here. I ended up on Pepe
Speaker 1: Island on this day because of this reason. So it's
Speaker 1: like this ominous thing that's about to unfold. They all
Speaker 1: have their different different ways in but essentially the show
Speaker 1: is chronological. It starts sort of at the beginning of
Speaker 1: the day. There's a clock that moves forward through the
Speaker 1: day until the event finishes, say it the next day.
Speaker 1: In this show, there's people who are there at the start,
Speaker 1: there's people who get involved as the event unfolds, there's
Speaker 1: people who get involved at the end. There's some people
Speaker 1: there at the event all the way through. There's some
Speaker 1: people who'd leave. And so it wasn't exactly the same
Speaker 1: for every person, say Todd Russell and Brandt Webb who
Speaker 1: were in the beacons Field Mine episode, well they're there
Speaker 1: from the start to the end. They went to work
Speaker 1: and they get caught in this mind collapse and then
Speaker 1: they got rescued, and then we really hear from them
Speaker 1: right up to the present day about how this thing's
Speaker 1: still impacting them. Whereas someone in the local town she
Speaker 1: got involved when she heard about it the next day,
Speaker 1: and then her involvement's more about the rescuer. And so
Speaker 1: depending on the boxing da tsunami, the journal too flew
Speaker 1: in there. He'd been flying in till the day till
Speaker 1: later in that day after the tsunami had happened, so
Speaker 1: he gets involved halfway through the episode. So different people
Speaker 1: get involved at different points of time, and so that
Speaker 1: dictates how long I speak to them. So for the
Speaker 1: big stories, you know, I spoke to some of those
Speaker 1: people for a number of hours as well, you know,
Speaker 1: because I needed to capture all the detail, the facts
Speaker 1: as far as they saw it, and then I needed
Speaker 1: to capture the you know, how it impacted them, then
Speaker 1: how it impacted them over time, how it changed them.
Speaker 1: So there was a series of things I needed to
Speaker 1: get out of every single person, whereas if your involvement
Speaker 1: was smaller, I might have spent less time with you,
Speaker 1: but still I would have spent a good hour with
Speaker 1: most people. At least. You know, we're not filming on
Speaker 1: film these days, so I like to go down the
Speaker 1: garden path, find out weird stuff, get the strange stuff
Speaker 1: that maybe others wouldn't ask about. So I generally probably
Speaker 1: would spend between an hour and two and a half
Speaker 1: hours with each of the people on the show.
Speaker 2: And that does it take, like you twelve months to
Speaker 2: edit this, because I mean, the editing is so brilliant,
Speaker 2: and obviously you've probably mastered a little bit of that
Speaker 2: from doing you can't ask that, But the editing in
Speaker 2: this it's just so like the clock ticking.
Speaker 1: The edit was challenging. We took all our learnings of
Speaker 1: you can't ask that in the way that we intercut
Speaker 1: people's stories, but because we didn't have eight stories to
Speaker 1: lean on at once, at times it was only a
Speaker 1: handful of people because of the nature of people going
Speaker 1: in and out of the story at that period of time,
Speaker 1: because we don't have a narrator or we don't have
Speaker 1: me asking questions or we don't have soupers, or we
Speaker 1: don't have text on screen, you know, summing it up
Speaker 1: or anything like that. We need to get it in
Speaker 1: the interview, and we need to be able to edit.
Speaker 1: Between say you and me speaking, we need I need
Speaker 1: to say something that links to you and vice versa.
Speaker 1: So unless I've got that in the edit, it's very
Speaker 1: difficult to tell that person's story and all these sorts
Speaker 1: of things. So that was challenging. Plus working with archive
Speaker 1: was challenging, and giving the facts but giving the emotions
Speaker 1: at the same time. We didn't want to get too
Speaker 1: bogged down, which is facts the whole time, but you
Speaker 1: also need to understand the facts so you could feel
Speaker 1: the emotion. And then giving the respect to all of
Speaker 1: these different people that have that are given their time
Speaker 1: and given us their honesty about the day. You want
Speaker 1: to make sure you represent their story and their take
Speaker 1: really really well. And thirty minutes isn't a long time
Speaker 1: to tell all these different people's takes, and some of
Speaker 1: these stories are really really big. So like I said before,
Speaker 1: we can't tell every aspect of these days. We can't
Speaker 1: tell all the facts. Actually, that's not what the aim is.
Speaker 1: The aim is to try and give you a sense
Speaker 1: of what it was like to be there, the emotion
Speaker 1: of it, the feelings of it, and the feelings and
Speaker 1: the emotions of all these different people, and then harmoniously
Speaker 1: cut their stories together so you feel like you get
Speaker 1: it and you understand it. So yeah, the edit was challenging,
Speaker 1: but the whole project we probably started in August last
Speaker 1: year and it's going to wear now, so it probably
Speaker 1: took a bit six weeks longer than maybe what it
Speaker 1: would take to make You cun't ask that, But again,
Speaker 1: we're making something new, and I think that if we've
Speaker 1: got to do it a second time, we've learned a
Speaker 1: million things that we could take into production second time around.
Speaker 1: It was a fun challenge. I didn't never hate it
Speaker 1: going to work.
Speaker 2: I think you need to go and buy a new
Speaker 2: suit because I think you're going to get a lot
Speaker 2: of awards for this show. I prepare yourself for that
Speaker 2: because it is groundbreaking, has leveled up from what you've
Speaker 2: done before. You should be so proud of this work.
Speaker 2: It's extraordinary. Well that's good to hear.
Speaker 1: And look, our aim is, obviously, is never to be
Speaker 1: awarded for the work. What you want for me anyway,
Speaker 1: What I want is to people to talk about it
Speaker 1: to be something they reflect on, they reflect on their
Speaker 1: own life, that they consider their own life differently, that
Speaker 1: they can sit other people's lives differently, that they ask
Speaker 1: questions of themselves. You know, that's what you want out
Speaker 1: of That's what I want out of the content, is
Speaker 1: for people to see it and think about it and
Speaker 1: discuss it and feel the emotions of this stuff. Something
Speaker 1: really nice that we've done too off the back of
Speaker 1: this series, and I would have loved to have done
Speaker 1: this on you can't ask that, but we just just
Speaker 1: didn't think of it at the time, is that we've
Speaker 1: taken you know, and this is another way to get
Speaker 1: into someone's world in a way that it's almost really
Speaker 1: impossible to do on the TV show, is that we've
Speaker 1: got this sort of companion podcast too, where we're we're
Speaker 1: taking one story from the series and you get to
Speaker 1: hear their story in more detail. So that longer interview
Speaker 1: I was telling you about before that two hours or
Speaker 1: whatever it is, say, with the sniper at Port Arthur,
Speaker 1: we've taken that and you know, we've trimmed it down
Speaker 1: and we've added music and it's become its own story
Speaker 1: in its own right. But you get to hear in
Speaker 1: intimate detail more of one particular person's story. So six
Speaker 1: episode Podcast two where each episode we focus on one
Speaker 1: person from the show and you get to hear their
Speaker 1: story in detail. So all these things, it's about trying
Speaker 1: to create an experience for the for the audience where
Speaker 1: they get to learn and think about their life differently.
Speaker 1: So that's really ultimately the aim of this stuff that
Speaker 1: we make. So but yes, thank you for being a supporter.
Speaker 1: I appreciate it for saying of those nice things.
Speaker 2: Yes, no, that that's fine, lovely, it's lovely to hear.
Speaker 1: It's better than you're saying. You know, it was a
Speaker 1: yawn fest.
Speaker 2: No, my god, I just can't wait to keep watching it.
Speaker 2: I have to leave this. But what is something just
Speaker 2: something from behind the scenes, Like, what's something that because
Speaker 2: I end the podcast with the same question for everybody,
Speaker 2: whether you're on survivor whether on Dancing with the Stars,
Speaker 2: it doesn't matter what it is. What is something from
Speaker 2: behind the scenes that we won't as an audience get
Speaker 2: a chance to see. Kind of like a funny anecdote, let.
Speaker 1: Me just say this and then if I can think
Speaker 1: of something funny, I will. I think what people don't
Speaker 1: know about how we make this stuff is that we
Speaker 1: film people from all the different episodes, back to back
Speaker 1: to back to back, wherever they happen to be. So
Speaker 1: I won't just film Port Arthur in one go, or
Speaker 1: I won't just film the Boxing Asunami one go. We'll
Speaker 1: go to a location where those people live and will
Speaker 1: I'll interview person from Port Arthur, the person from Boxing
Speaker 1: A Tsunami, a person from Warmra, back to back to back.
Speaker 1: So what's incredible about that is it keeps me fresh,
Speaker 1: it keeps me interested. But what's fascinating is all these
Speaker 1: people come in. They've had these extraordinary moments, and a
Speaker 1: lot of them are very unsure about whether their story
Speaker 1: is worth listening to, and in some respects need to
Speaker 1: be reminded or convinced, Hey, we're interested, That's why we've
Speaker 1: got you here. This stuff is fascinating, and it's this
Speaker 1: sort of this humble way in which people go about
Speaker 1: their lives, even if they've had something quite extraordinary happen
Speaker 1: to them. They think, am I worth listening to? Am
Speaker 1: I worth hearing? And so I think that people might find,
Speaker 1: and that's surprising that these people that you see in
Speaker 1: the show, they're not rehearsed speakers. They've often haven't spoken
Speaker 1: about these things before or in great detail or in
Speaker 1: the detail they're about to share with me, and some
Speaker 1: of them think is my story even worth hearing? So
Speaker 1: when you see them in the finished product, they come
Speaker 1: across as incredibly confident, articulate, and you know, that's how
Speaker 1: we cut it, not that they don't speak that way
Speaker 1: in person, but a lot of people come to that
Speaker 1: set that day very nervous thinking am I worth being
Speaker 1: listened to? Am I going to do a good job?
Speaker 1: And shit, is this even a good idea? So I
Speaker 1: think that that's probably one of the things that people
Speaker 1: maybe find most surprising about the people who appear in
Speaker 1: our show is that they're just ordinary like us.
Speaker 2: Absolutely, or you could be like me when I did
Speaker 2: you can ask that. And I bought a coffee from
Speaker 2: the coffee shop next to where we were filming, and
Speaker 2: then I just ranted at you for like an hour
Speaker 2: and a half or however long it was, and then
Speaker 2: walked out of the room and you somehow manage to
Speaker 2: pull it together. You know, it's really funny. And I'll
Speaker 2: finish on this because it's quite hilarious. More people stop
Speaker 2: me now for you can't ask that than big brother.
Speaker 2: But for some reason, whatever you did to me on
Speaker 2: that show made me likable.
Speaker 1: Do people like you off the back of you can't
Speaker 1: ask that.
Speaker 2: They loved it?
Speaker 1: Oh that's good.
Speaker 2: And I shot myself for a full nine months after
Speaker 2: shooting it because I was like, was I a weirdo?
Speaker 2: Did I say the worst things? What are they going
Speaker 2: to do with all that footage?
Speaker 1: Oh?
Speaker 2: My god? You know? And I did worry was what
Speaker 2: I said true?
Speaker 1: You know? We wanted people. We wanted people to like
Speaker 1: the people on our show. That was really important to
Speaker 1: us because we like them. Do you What's a funny
Speaker 1: thing just just talking about doing this these long interviews
Speaker 1: with people, is that when you give your attention to
Speaker 1: someone and they suddenly feel comfortable your presence and then
Speaker 1: they sort of turn off all these all these these
Speaker 1: fears about how am I going to be seen, and
Speaker 1: they just talk like a normal person and they just
Speaker 1: become completely involved in themselves, in their own story. They
Speaker 1: completely forget about you that you're even there asking these
Speaker 1: questions that they're on TV that they're being filmed, it
Speaker 1: just becomes very very very very natural. So much so
Speaker 1: it's it's it's not uncommon for people like I remember
Speaker 1: interviewing a gentleman from Adult Virgins episode and I spent
Speaker 1: two hours quizzing about being an adult virgin and all
Speaker 1: the ins and outs of that lifestyle and the choices
Speaker 1: he'd made and all that sort of stuff. It was
Speaker 1: like a pretty intimate couple of hours with this fellow,
Speaker 1: you know. I felt like we got a photo after
Speaker 1: and it was quite an amazing conversation. I saw that
Speaker 1: person the next day in the street and I walked
Speaker 1: up to them, say, Hey, how are you blah blah blah.
Speaker 1: They just completely blank me. They had no idea who
Speaker 1: I was. I was like, God, how bizarre, Like I
Speaker 1: just spent all this time with this person. You know,
Speaker 1: of course I could remember. It was fascinating time for me.
Speaker 1: But it's sort of an interesting reminder that, you know,
Speaker 1: being the interviewer in these moments is not about me.
Speaker 1: I'm not there to be liked. I'm not there to
Speaker 1: make friends with this person. I'm there to understand this person,
Speaker 1: and if I can create an environment where they feel
Speaker 1: very comfortable just to be themselves in talk and almost
Speaker 1: in a way, completely forget where they are. I ultimately
Speaker 1: saw that as a compliment that they didn't me. I
Speaker 1: was like, Wow, what a fascinating sort off election on
Speaker 1: that experience, that they should sit there and just talk
Speaker 1: about themselves and get completely wrapped up in it and
Speaker 1: everything else is sort of forgotten.
Speaker 2: It's a good way to look at it now. I
Speaker 2: don't feel so bad that I've interviewed Julie Goodwin three
Speaker 2: times and this morning she didn't remember who I was
Speaker 2: or that she did the podcast before. I was like, Julie,
Speaker 2: you've been on the podcast three times. She was like,
Speaker 2: oh have I? And I was like, I must be
Speaker 2: so invisible.
Speaker 1: You know, I'm just I annoyed. I haven't really come
Speaker 1: up with a funny anecdote for you for this show.
Speaker 1: How about if I asked you this way, what's the
Speaker 1: secret that you'd want to know that? Because you know,
Speaker 1: as sometimes you don't realize it's a secret, because it's
Speaker 1: just it's just what you do.
Speaker 2: I think that's stuff that's the secret behind this that
Speaker 2: I was kind of expecting you to say was just
Speaker 2: something that you had to didn't make the final cut
Speaker 2: something that someone had said that you were like, I
Speaker 2: really want to put this in, but it doesn't belong.
Speaker 2: That's what I kind of thought you were going to say.
Speaker 1: We do. Definitely, we definitely have bits that we don't
Speaker 1: include because they didn't belong because it was sort of
Speaker 1: outside the realm of the day. For example, the sniper,
Speaker 1: the sniper on the Port Arthur episode was a fascinating gentleman,
Speaker 1: and he told me all these contingencies that they had planned.
Speaker 1: Because we briefly give a nod to this in the episode,
Speaker 1: but the government was talking from the old portable phone
Speaker 1: that you have your home phone, but it was a
Speaker 1: portable phone that had a battery and it could run
Speaker 1: out of power. That's how they were communicating. The hostage
Speaker 1: negotiator was communicating through this portable phone. What they didn't
Speaker 1: realize that that phone was running out of batteries, and
Speaker 1: when the phone rount of batteries, they had no more
Speaker 1: communication to this guy. So then this is in the
Speaker 1: evening and there's still this siege going on, and so
Speaker 1: they're talking about how the hell do we begin contact again.
Speaker 1: So they're tossing up all these different ideas and One
Speaker 1: of them was they were going to get a tank
Speaker 1: and drive a tank up to the front door with
Speaker 1: a new phone in it and pass. They couldn't get
Speaker 1: a tank down to Port Arthur. So then they started
Speaker 1: looking around. This is like on a Sunday night, nine
Speaker 1: ninety six, and they started looking for around for like
Speaker 1: a military museum of some kind where someone might have
Speaker 1: like a backyard. I've got my own military a few
Speaker 1: vehicles or something in my own house to see they
Speaker 1: could get like a vintage World War two tank or
Speaker 1: something like that that they could well, they couldn't make
Speaker 1: that happen. So they're discussing, what if we fly across
Speaker 1: an F eighteen right over the top and create a
Speaker 1: sonic boom, and in this sonic boom, we drive up
Speaker 1: a car and this distraction is going to happen and
Speaker 1: we throw this phone out. These are sorts of things
Speaker 1: they were discussing. Wow, try and solve this sort of
Speaker 1: problem anyway. Some of that stuff just doesn't make it
Speaker 1: because it's sort of like it's not it's not part
Speaker 1: of that the main thrust of the story. But I
Speaker 1: was sitting there with my you know, to use the
Speaker 1: saying you were saying before my jaw to the floor,
Speaker 1: going oh my god, this is just some of some
Speaker 1: of the things they contemplated.
Speaker 2: So you know that that's the weird thing. It's like,
Speaker 2: goes back to what you were saying earlier. You know,
Speaker 2: there's all these facts that you can look up about
Speaker 2: Port Arthur. No one wants to read all of those facts,
Speaker 2: you know what I mean, Like, what people want to
Speaker 2: know is the really weird things that humans do. That
Speaker 2: stuff is what people want to know. It's fascinating because
Speaker 2: it also it makes it feel more real.
Speaker 1: It's not a Hollywood thing where it's all perfectly neat
Speaker 1: put out blah blah blah. You know, it's strange, you know.
Speaker 1: I think that's the overarching thing of all these things.
Speaker 1: It's strange and weird in all the ways that you
Speaker 1: could never write if you were if you were doing
Speaker 1: it yourself. So absolutely, Look, it's lovely talking about it
Speaker 1: after making it for however long. So it's nice to
Speaker 1: be in this process and getting it out to the world.
Speaker 1: And it's a weird work. You know, if you think
Speaker 1: about this what we do. Not many other people after
Speaker 1: they've worked on a project for twelve months ago it's broadcast,
Speaker 1: it's the world, and get feedback on it. But it's
Speaker 1: a good thing and a bad thing, and I'm hoping
Speaker 1: it's received well.
Speaker 2: I'm going to send you a list of now ideas
Speaker 2: for season two.
Speaker 1: They're going to make you, please, please please.
Speaker 2: If you get a trip the in between, there go somewhere.
Speaker 2: Sonny editing room is quite a cute space. Thank you,
Speaker 2: look after yourself. Thank you so much. Lovely talking to you,
Speaker 2: lovely chatting to you. Amazing