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Speaker 1: It's the Happy Families podcast.

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Speaker 2: It's the podcast for the time poor parent who just answers?

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Speaker 3: Now Today on the Happy Families podcast, what is up

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Speaker 3: with Roadblocks? Hello? This is doctor Justin Coulson, the founder

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Speaker 3: of Happy Families dot com dot AUU and the author

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Speaker 3: of a bunch of books about how you can make

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Speaker 3: your family happy. I'm here with Kylie and this is

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Speaker 3: Happy Families. Come to our six daughters, Kylie, how would

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Speaker 3: you describe the screen situation in our home when it

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Speaker 3: comes to kids and gaming? Non existent? That's how I

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Speaker 3: would say it as well. We've got a fairly clear

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Speaker 3: family policy, and that is no games on screens. Although

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Speaker 3: we're not perfect at it, we're pretty strict with it.

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Speaker 3: Do you think if we had sons rather than six

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Speaker 3: daughters that that policy would be as sustainable as it

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Speaker 3: has been.

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Speaker 2: I think that it might have been challenged a lot

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Speaker 2: more than it has been. In our homes. Are really

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Speaker 2: grateful for a brother in law because he enables their

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Speaker 2: desire from time to time.

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Speaker 3: It's over with a gaming console now and then nice one, Jared.

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Speaker 3: We've generally held that line pretty firmly, though, and I

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Speaker 3: think that we would have still been pretty tight, pretty

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Speaker 3: strict around it, even if we had sons. Today, we're

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Speaker 3: going to talk about the reasons we don't do roadblocks

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Speaker 3: and why we try to keep games on screens to

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Speaker 3: a minimum.

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Speaker 2: So I know you're pretty passionate about your dislike for roadblocks.

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Speaker 2: I don't even know what it is really, honestly, I

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Speaker 2: call it roadblocks.

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Speaker 3: That's right. That's how much I don't know.

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Speaker 2: So I'm interested to have this conversation today to find

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Speaker 2: out why it is that you're so passionate about roadblocks

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Speaker 2: roadblocks and not letting our kids play it. So what

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Speaker 2: is it actually and why are you so up in

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Speaker 2: arms about it?

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Speaker 3: Okay, let's start with what it is is. It's not

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Speaker 3: a game as much as it's a tool set to

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Speaker 3: make video games, and then of course those video games

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Speaker 3: become the games that kids play. So it's more of

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Speaker 3: a platform with all kinds of game experiences that kids

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Speaker 3: can engage with, and they can play, and they can build,

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Speaker 3: and a whole lot more. They can have these immersive,

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Speaker 3: interactive experiences that they wouldn't be able to get in

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Speaker 3: the real world, even events that happen on roadblocks, concerts

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Speaker 3: and that kind of thing, and these games and these events.

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Speaker 3: They are all designed by the community. Honestly, as much

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Speaker 3: as I don't want my kids playing with it, I've

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Speaker 3: got to admit it is a brilliant system where everybody

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Speaker 3: is part of the construction. I mean, you talk about

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Speaker 3: creating buy in, that's what this does.

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Speaker 2: So in parental guidance last year, the kids were playing

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Speaker 2: a game, is that what Roadblocks was.

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Speaker 3: They didn't play Roadblocks, but they played something similar. Going

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Speaker 3: to come to that in just a sec. But essentially

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Speaker 3: you've got a whole lot of different games that you

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Speaker 3: can play while you're on there. There's first person shooter

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Speaker 3: games like I guess kind of rip off of Call

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Speaker 3: of Duty. There are role playing games, huge variety of options.

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Speaker 3: Like I said, in person events, there's Piggy and Mission

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Speaker 3: Mars and jarl Break. They're all used generated games that

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Speaker 3: are on the platform. David Bazouki, who's the CEO of Roadblocks,

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Speaker 3: said this on his blog last May, and I quote

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Speaker 3: he said, at Roadblocks, we're building an immersive platform for

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Speaker 3: communication and connection with safety and civility at its foundation

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Speaker 3: that simulates the real world. He said, in real life,

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Speaker 3: people visit places designated for all ages, every day, from

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Speaker 3: theme parks to city parks, older age groups, and to

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Speaker 3: environments that require some form of age verification, from nightclubs

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Speaker 3: to some concerts or movies on roadblocks. We want to

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Speaker 3: recreate these dynamics of real life in virtual space.

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Speaker 2: So there's a part of me that actually really likes

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Speaker 2: the concept. It almost has the capacity for children to

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Speaker 2: try new experience and try out I guess those skill

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Speaker 2: sets in what I would like to say is a

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Speaker 2: safe environment. But I'm going to assume, based on the

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Speaker 2: fact that you are pretty up in arms about it,

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Speaker 2: that this is not going to be a safe space

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Speaker 2: for kids.

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Speaker 3: Okay, so this is something that Roeblock says they're focused on.

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Speaker 3: They're focused on safety and civility. I mean, I look

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Speaker 3: at this and think I would rather my kids go

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Speaker 3: and have the real life experience. I would like to

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Speaker 3: take them to the city park, and I don't necessarily

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Speaker 3: want them to be hanging out in this online space

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Speaker 3: where there are a bunch of adults who are looking

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Speaker 3: to go to nightclubs, and who knows what are the

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Speaker 3: kinds of clubs or facilities that have been built in

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Speaker 3: that online world. I don't want my kids to be there.

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Speaker 3: I just don't like that.

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Speaker 2: But I'm imagining that so many parents are going, but

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Speaker 2: I don't have time to take them to the park anymore.

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Speaker 2: I got too many other things to do. Or I

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Speaker 2: don't really want them interacting with real people just yet,

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Speaker 2: because I'm just not sure who's safe and who's not.

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Speaker 3: So two quick responses that number one, research shows that

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Speaker 3: parents are more involved them, more willing to take their

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Speaker 3: children's places than ever before. Parents are really involved with

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Speaker 3: their kids now, and they're keeping them safe, especially when

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Speaker 3: they're out and about in real life. Second response, though,

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Speaker 3: is that idea of I mean, it is super convenient, yes,

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Speaker 3: but I promise you your kids are hanging out with

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Speaker 3: much more dangerous people in that online environment than they

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Speaker 3: are in the real world, especially when you're with them

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Speaker 3: at the park or at the beach or at the shops.

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Speaker 3: Now here's the other thing that Bazouki said. He said,

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Speaker 3: quote more than fifty five percent of our users are

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Speaker 3: now over thirteen years old.

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Speaker 2: Okay, so if we were to put this another way,

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Speaker 2: you're suggesting that means that about forty five percent of

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Speaker 2: their users are under thirteen.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, that's exactly right. And for context, roadblocks has over

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Speaker 3: seventy million daily users. This is up to the minute

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Speaker 3: stats I've just checked before. We've recorded current stats over

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Speaker 3: seventy million daily uses and over two hundred and sixty

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Speaker 3: monthly users. So essentially half of that population, somewhere around

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Speaker 3: thirty five million kids that are on there every day

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Speaker 3: are not even teenagers yet one hundred and twenty million

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Speaker 3: monthly users not even teenagers. And if you get one

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Speaker 3: hundred million kids and put them in one box box, yeah,

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Speaker 3: one roadblocks that's going to invite certain adult engagement, among

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Speaker 3: other challenges. So this is one of my central concerns.

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Speaker 3: I just think we've got massive privacy concerns, massive safety concerns,

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Speaker 3: and I want to come back to that in a minute,

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Speaker 3: but I mean, there's just there's so much going on

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Speaker 3: with this huge platform, and they want to be the

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Speaker 3: world's first billion user platform gaming platform. Like they are,

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Speaker 3: they're on track to absolutely own the planet. When it

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Speaker 3: comes to our kids being on this on this.

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Speaker 2: Platform, I'm going to assume that, based on the numbers

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Speaker 2: we're talking about in the age of children that are involved,

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Speaker 2: that this must be a free platform that kids have

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Speaker 2: access to.

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Speaker 3: So yes it is, and no it's not What I

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Speaker 3: mean by that is you can engage with and use

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Speaker 3: Roadblocks for free. You can play Roadblocks for free, but

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Speaker 3: they make really big money by selling in game add ons.

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Speaker 3: And the way it works for anyone who's familiar with Fortnite,

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Speaker 3: Fortnite has v bucks, Roadblocks has roebucks, and essentially, kids

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Speaker 3: will use your credit card to use real money to

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Speaker 3: buy roebucks, and then they use their roebucks to buy

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Speaker 3: their in game skins and their avatar bits and pieces,

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Speaker 3: add ons, anything that they want, any of those in

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Speaker 3: game experiences. That's what they use roebucks for. And of course,

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Speaker 3: because they're using Roadbucks, it's not real money. It's like

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Speaker 3: monopoly money, it's like play money. It has come from

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Speaker 3: your real money, it's come from your credit card. But

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Speaker 3: now they're in the game, it just feels like it's Roadbucks.

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Speaker 3: It's not real. And the thing that I really struggle

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Speaker 3: with here is Roadblocks and Fortnite and all of the

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Speaker 3: other platforms that are doing this understand scarcity. So what

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Speaker 3: they do is they give kids limited editions. This skin,

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Speaker 3: there's only so many of them, and once they're they're gone.

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Speaker 2: Now, well, this off is only available for a few

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Speaker 2: minutes only for.

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Speaker 3: This weekend, right, So it's a digital product. Technically it's limitless,

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Speaker 3: but they use scarcity to crank up the pressure. And

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Speaker 3: here's what I don't like, this pressure to buy. So

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Speaker 3: if you go to the Avatar shop, for example, all

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Speaker 3: kinds of items for the kids avatars, including scarce items,

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Speaker 3: and they can cost breath taking amounts of money. So

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Speaker 3: people have already purchased it, and then they go into

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Speaker 3: the Avatar shop and they put it up for sale

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Speaker 3: for twice the amount. Why because there's none left and

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Speaker 3: they can charge a premium for it. It's in demand,

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Speaker 3: and everybody wants it because they missed out. It's kind

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Speaker 3: of like an even more exploited version of what eBay is,

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Speaker 3: and our kids don't have the psychological capacity to navigate this.

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Speaker 2: I remember not so long ago, one of our older

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Speaker 2: daughters gave her younger sister her phone and had downloaded

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Speaker 2: just a small game on the phone for her to

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Speaker 2: play with, and I think within about ten minutes she'd

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Speaker 2: racked up about eighty dollars on her credit card that

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Speaker 2: was linked to her account, and she came to us going,

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Speaker 2: oh my gosh, look what's happened. Emily had no idea

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Speaker 2: what she was doing. She was just pushing buttons and

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Speaker 2: doing things, and like you said, it doesn't feel like

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Speaker 2: real money because you're just clicking a button.

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Speaker 3: Right, And so US regulators are looking at Roadblocks specifically,

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Speaker 3: as well as a handful of other platforms obviously, but

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Speaker 3: Roadblocks is near the top of their list, and they're

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Speaker 3: essentially arguing that Roadblocks could be engaging in predatory behavior

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Speaker 3: because kids don't know. They're exploiting vulnerable psychology in children

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Speaker 3: who don't understand money, and they're spending money that's not

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Speaker 3: even real, even though they've converted real money to have

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Speaker 3: the fake money. And in some ways as well, there

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Speaker 3: are elements of what happens on Roadblocks that really are

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Speaker 3: just introducing kids to gambling. On top of that, players

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Speaker 3: can also make money by selling access to the spaces

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Speaker 3: that they've created. I found a page it's called the

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Speaker 3: Roadblocks Creator Hub page, and it says this Roadblocks's goal

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Speaker 3: is to enable the creation of anything anywhere, by anyone,

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Speaker 3: and we're constantly investing in new tools and services to

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Speaker 3: empower our creative community. We give our creators from an

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Speaker 3: individual to a large studio diverse ways to earn on

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Speaker 3: Roadblocks by creating content and experiences, specifically developing an experience

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Speaker 3: in experienced purchases, engagement based payouts, immersive ads, creating, selling

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Speaker 3: and reselling avatar items, creating and selling studio plugins. So

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Speaker 3: what this basically means is that any kind of enterprising kid,

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Speaker 3: but more likely enterprising adults and studios can really make

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Speaker 3: bank by developing experiences, by buying skins and avatar items

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Speaker 3: that are limited in reselling, the huge profits and a

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Speaker 3: whole lot more, and it's an experience. Roadblocks is literally

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Speaker 3: designed to take money from kits, So that's the money

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Speaker 3: side of things. That's one of several reasons that I

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Speaker 3: really don't like Roadblocks.

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Speaker 2: I'm assuming one of the major challenges that you have

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Speaker 2: with this game and other games like it, it's just

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Speaker 2: that no one knows who's who on the Internet. You're

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Speaker 2: hiding behind an avatar, so.

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Speaker 3: Anyone can create an account pretend to whoever they want.

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Speaker 3: There's that Far Side cartoon by Gary Larsen where a

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Speaker 3: dog's typing on a computer and the caption below the

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Speaker 3: cartoon says, on the Internet, nobody knows you're a dog

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Speaker 3: and it's meant to be really funny, but there's a

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Speaker 3: real dark side to this. So while I was preparing

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Speaker 3: for this podcast, I signed up to Roadblocks with a

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Speaker 3: fake account. I pretended to be a ten year old girl.

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Speaker 3: I opened up the settings once I'd signed up for

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Speaker 3: the account, and I just wanted to have a look

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Speaker 3: at what the default settings were. And the default option

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Speaker 3: for who can chat with me as a ten year

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Speaker 3: old girl is everyone. It's not friends, it's not people

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Speaker 3: I know, it's everyone. That's the default setting. From my

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Speaker 3: perspective in twenty twenty four, this is unconscionable because this

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Speaker 3: platform is literally offering a super highway for dodgy people

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Speaker 3: to chat with our kids. And I know a lot

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Speaker 3: of people say, well, it's not going to happen. It's

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Speaker 3: not that big of a deal. It's a really low probability.

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Speaker 3: But as you alluded to before, Clytie, when we used

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Speaker 3: a similar game to Robbalks Empernal Guidance season two, you

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Speaker 3: saw what happened.

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Speaker 1: So parents, we challenged you to give your kids an

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Speaker 1: hour to play an online game popular amongst primary school children.

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Speaker 1: The aim of the game is to trade with other

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Speaker 1: players to get better items, and the trading relies on interactions.

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Speaker 1: If you don't chat, you don't progress. We wanted to

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Speaker 1: see what they did when a stranger approached them to

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Speaker 1: replicate a real world situation. The stranger was an actor

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Speaker 1: under the direction of an undercover AFP agent.

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Speaker 2: Your online name is Pieter and you're trying to establish

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Speaker 2: a relationship with funny animal.

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Speaker 3: Maybe start by introducing yourself. Her name's really, she says,

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Speaker 3: her name's Pepper. That's information she shouldn't be giving out

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Speaker 3: someone already.

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Speaker 1: Just being very open with you.

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Speaker 3: Ask if she knows the local shopping center.

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Speaker 1: It she says she does.

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Speaker 3: Okay, keep building the relationship. See if she'd like to

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Speaker 3: meet you at the shopping center.

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Speaker 1: Oh my god, she said, yes.

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Speaker 2: I still remember watching that with the kids, and just

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Speaker 2: I've got goosebumps just thinking about it.

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Speaker 3: It was so.

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Speaker 2: Mind boggling to me just how wide open those kids

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Speaker 2: were left.

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Speaker 3: And that's the issue. Bad actors can and do get

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Speaker 3: kids on platforms like roadblocks and bring them into other

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Speaker 3: environments like discord or WhatsApp or Telegram or even Instagram

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Speaker 3: and snapchat and danger looks. In America, there's something called

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Speaker 3: the National Center on Sexual Exploitation. In some ways it's

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Speaker 3: not exactly the same, but in some ways its similar

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Speaker 3: to our Austlian Center account Child Exploitation and our e

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Speaker 3: Safety Commissioner and the National Center on Sexual Exploitation has

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Speaker 3: put Roadblocks on what they call their Dirty Dozen list.

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Speaker 3: They've got a list of platforms where they're essentially saying

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Speaker 3: Roadblocks is one of the companies most likely to be

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Speaker 3: profiting from sexual abuse and exploitation of kids.

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Speaker 2: That's intense. I'm so glad we don't have it.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, I'm really likely that this is why that TikTok right,

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Speaker 3: even outside that risk, and that's such a huge risk.

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Speaker 3: Probabilities are low, but it's a huge risk. There's also

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Speaker 3: highly inappropriate content on Roadblocks that kids can access even

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Speaker 3: when you've got your parental controls turned on. And get this.

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Speaker 3: Just in response to what you said, I found a

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Speaker 3: clip online indicating that the National Center on Sexual Exploitation

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Speaker 3: has reached out to Roadblocks because they're on the Dirty

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Speaker 3: dozen list multiple times to talk with them about ways

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Speaker 3: that they can improve child safety and Roapeblocks isn't up

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Speaker 3: for the conversation. They've come out. This center has literally

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Speaker 3: come out and said we've tried, they're ignoring us, they

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Speaker 3: don't want to talk, or at least at the time

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Speaker 3: this was late last year, the content and the links

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Speaker 3: that I found, they hadn't at that point.

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Speaker 2: So basically, what you're saying is when we look at

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Speaker 2: these very popular, high traffic user games, they're just like

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Speaker 2: all of the other ones that there's no concern for

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Speaker 2: the safety and wellbeing of our kids. It's all about money.

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Speaker 3: Yeah. Inappropriate content, online predators, commercialization. They're the three things

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Speaker 3: that I worry about most, and that's why that's why

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Speaker 3: I've been so insistent, and you've been wonderful and supportive.

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Speaker 3: That's why we don't have our kids on these platforms.

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Speaker 3: Inappropriate content, online predators, commercialization.

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Speaker 2: So the challenges parents we have is the fact that

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Speaker 2: this is really popular. I would suggest that most kids

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Speaker 2: in any given school classroom either have use of it

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Speaker 2: on a daily basis or have had access to it

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Speaker 2: in the past.

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Speaker 3: And many school classrooms used Roadblocks or Minecraft as an

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Speaker 3: in school learning function because of the spaces that have

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Speaker 3: been created in the platform.

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Speaker 2: And like I said at the very beginning, I actually

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Speaker 2: love the concept. At the core of it. What they're

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Speaker 2: actually trying to do. Sounds like a whole heap of fun.

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Speaker 2: Sounds like some amazing educational benefits that can come and

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Speaker 2: conversations that can start as a result of it. So,

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Speaker 2: considering we live in a world where roadblocks plays a

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Speaker 2: massive role in so many of our kids' lives, what

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Speaker 2: is your advice to parents?

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Speaker 3: Okay, so my advice would be the same as it

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Speaker 3: is for all of the platforms, whether it's the social

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Speaker 3: media platforms or gaming platforms, it's pretty much the same thing.

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Speaker 3: And you've heard the conversations that we've had in our

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Speaker 3: home in terms of just number one, I try to

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Speaker 3: keep the kids off all platforms as much as possible,

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Speaker 3: which I know creates some challenges and some contention from

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Speaker 3: time to time. But that's something that I worked really

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Speaker 3: hard on and I think it's the best advice that

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Speaker 3: I can give. However, it's not always practical, it's not

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Speaker 3: always realistic. So five other things that I would mentioned,

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Speaker 3: and I always through them pretty quickly. They are all

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Speaker 3: pretty basic to get your head around. Number One, you've

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Speaker 3: just got another platform, Like I got onto rope Blocks

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Speaker 3: and spent some time on it today, get on their

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Speaker 3: play with it, watch it stream and engage with it.

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Speaker 3: See what people are doing with it on YouTube. When

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Speaker 3: you have a good look at it and understand the platform,

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Speaker 3: you're going to have much better conversations with your children.

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Speaker 3: Second thing, adjust the settings so that you can keep

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Speaker 3: kids safe. First thing that I did when I signed

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Speaker 3: up as a ten year old girl was went straight

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Speaker 3: to the parential controls and how to look at the settings.

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Speaker 3: Parental controls matter. They're not going to be fool proof

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Speaker 3: and kids can and will find their way around them

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Speaker 3: if they want to, but they will be helpful. Third thing,

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Speaker 3: you really want to talk to your kids about being safe.

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Speaker 3: Have regular conversations with your children. We are not perfect

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Speaker 3: at this, but we try on the first Sunday of

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Speaker 3: most months to have a conversation with the kids about

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Speaker 3: tricky topics. Sometimes it's online safety, other times it'll be

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Speaker 3: things of a moral nature. There's all kinds of different

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Speaker 3: conversations that we have, and like I said, well we

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Speaker 3: don't do it every first Sunday of the month. We

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Speaker 3: try to do it as regularly as we can. This

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Speaker 3: is one of those things where you talk to the

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Speaker 3: kids about being safe. You tell them not to talk

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Speaker 3: to people that they don't know. Tell them that if

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Speaker 3: they are talking to somebody that they think that they

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Speaker 3: know and that person encourages them to leave the platform

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Speaker 3: and go somewhere else, don't do it. Tell them to

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Speaker 3: check in with you whenever they're not sure about something,

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Speaker 3: rather than just going right ahead and barreling full speed

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Speaker 3: into something that could be devastating. Those conversations with the

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Speaker 3: kids really matter.

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Speaker 2: I would assume one of your points would be to

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Speaker 2: monitor your kids, especially young kids, when they're using any

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Speaker 2: of these platforms.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, just all over them, Be over their shoulder, be

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Speaker 3: asking the questions, be engaged. And the last thing that

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Speaker 3: I would say is don't give you kids access to

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Speaker 3: the credit card. Make sure that you know what they're

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Speaker 3: spending money on, because, like you said, Kylie, we had

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Speaker 3: one daughter who spent eighty bucks not too long ago

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Speaker 3: without anyone having a clue. Just bang, and you hear

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Speaker 3: horror stories all the time, right.

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Speaker 2: I obviously acknowledged at the beginning of the podcast that

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Speaker 2: I didn't really know much about roadblocks, right, and it

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Speaker 2: looks like I'm not missing out on a whole heap.

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Speaker 2: I'm really really grateful that it's not something that we

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Speaker 2: have to contend with in our home. But hopefully, as

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Speaker 2: we've discussed things today, parents are now more aware of

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Speaker 2: what their children are being involved in and they can

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Speaker 2: utilize your advice to make sure that we work with

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Speaker 2: our kids to help keep them safe.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, hopefully this has been a helpful podcast. The Happy

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Speaker 3: Family's podcast is produced by Justin Rawan from Bridge Media.

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Speaker 3: Craig Bruce is our executive producer. For more and fo

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Speaker 3: about how to make your family happier, visitors at happy

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Speaker 3: families dot com Today you