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Speaker 1: It's the Happy Family's podcast. It's the podcast for the

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Speaker 1: time poor parent who just wants answers.

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Speaker 2: Now, Hi and welcome to Happy Families podcast. Thank you

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Speaker 2: so much for joining in today's discussion with doctor Jody Lowinger.

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Speaker 2: A little while ago, I ran a summit, not a summit,

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Speaker 2: more of an online conference at happy families dot com

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Speaker 2: dot you. It was called Breaking Point. I spoke to

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Speaker 2: Australia's Children's Commissioner and Hollands and that was all about

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Speaker 2: mental health, wellbeing and the state of play with Australian

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Speaker 2: young people. That was a general conversation, but I also

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Speaker 2: spoke with doctor Jody Lowinger. She runs the Anxiety Clinic

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Speaker 2: in Sydney literally the Anxiety Clinic in Sydney, and has

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Speaker 2: written a wonderful book about anxiety and also spends her

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Speaker 2: life helping people to deal with anxiety challenges and issues.

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Speaker 2: I wanted to share with you some of my conversation

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Speaker 2: with doctor Jody lowing Are because I think it's just

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Speaker 2: so insightful and so helpful. So even if you weren't

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Speaker 2: part of the online conference that we did, here's a

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Speaker 2: snapshot of what you missed. My first question for you

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Speaker 2: is just how prevalent is anxiety among adolescent girls? And

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Speaker 2: as a I guess a second part to that question,

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Speaker 2: are there any particular factors that contribute to anxiety in

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Speaker 2: our key adolescent demographic.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, thank you for those fantastic questions. If we talk

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Speaker 1: about prevalence of anxiety, I sometimes when I'm doing keynotes,

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Speaker 1: I ask people to put your hand up if you

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Speaker 1: don't experience anxiety. And you know, whether it's adolescens, primary school,

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Speaker 1: high school, adults, you know, most people don't put the

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Speaker 1: hand up because this is part of our human condition.

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Speaker 1: And so what I really want everybody to recognize is

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Speaker 1: we have to sort of smash stigma and shame about

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Speaker 1: the experience of anxiety, taking it out of a medical

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Speaker 1: model or a medical frame and bringing it into a

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Speaker 1: human frame, because, let's face it, anxiety is really prevalent.

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Speaker 1: It's really prevalent amongst our adolescent girls, but all of us,

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Speaker 1: you know, society is now out of line with really

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Speaker 1: the world that we were designed to live in, which

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Speaker 1: was to roaman fields and pick berries off trees. So

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Speaker 1: we're biological beings living in a technologically driven world, which

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Speaker 1: doesn't do well for our young girls. No matter what age.

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Speaker 1: So if we talk about heart statistics, the statistics do vary,

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Speaker 1: you know, sometimes we hear things like seven percent to

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Speaker 1: fifteen percent, So sometimes it's sort of one in every

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Speaker 1: four adolescent females in the classroom might be experiencing anxiety

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Speaker 1: to a level of severity that is causing prolonged fear suffering,

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Speaker 1: an avoidance in an individual's life. So this is where

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Speaker 1: what we might think of as human anxiety, the anxiety

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Speaker 1: that we all experience, tips into what might be classified

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Speaker 1: as an anxiety disorder. I am, even though I'm a

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Speaker 1: doctor of clinical psychology, I really don't like the word

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Speaker 1: disorder because it takes it back into that there's something

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Speaker 1: wrong with me kind of frame. And what I want

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Speaker 1: parents out there, what I want our kids and teens

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Speaker 1: to recognize, is it's not weak to feel. It's human

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Speaker 1: to feel. And also, as far as anxiety goes, I

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Speaker 1: have the privilege of working with some of the most

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Speaker 1: magnificent human beings on this planet. Because what anxiety brings

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Speaker 1: with it is this deeper sense of empathy. Oftentimes this

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Speaker 1: analytical mind wanting everyone and everything to be safe and well.

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Speaker 1: So it does talk to inherent character strengths. Now, parents

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Speaker 1: who are listening, who are watching, I'm sure you can

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Speaker 1: relate to some of this, whether it's in yourself or

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Speaker 1: in your kids and teens, whether it's male or female.

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Speaker 1: In terms of your specific question, again, justin the statistics

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Speaker 1: talk to a greater number of females than males. However,

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Speaker 1: I question this because it may well be that females

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Speaker 1: are more likely to speak up about their experiences, whereas

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Speaker 1: males may not be more likely to speak up. But

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Speaker 1: there are many factors that contribute to the statistics there.

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Speaker 2: Why don't we talk about some of those factors before

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Speaker 2: we get into practical solutions. I mean, everybody who's watching

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Speaker 2: this is feeling like they're at breaking point, and the

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Speaker 2: kids are at breaking point because of these mental health challenges.

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Speaker 2: But I think that it's really important if you're going

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Speaker 2: to address solutions, that is, if you're going to say

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Speaker 2: here are some things that you can do about anxiety,

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Speaker 2: you need to know where it's coming from. When you

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Speaker 2: look at youth anxiety today, when you're speaking with school students, clients, parents,

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Speaker 2: other therapists, what do you pinpoint as the central predictors

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Speaker 2: of the central contributors to this anxiety. I'm going to

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Speaker 2: use the word explosion because the numbers, I mean, the

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Speaker 2: latest numbers that I've seen, twenty one percent of young

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Speaker 2: men and forty one percent of young women. They're extraordinary numbers.

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Speaker 2: What do you think is making this happen?

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Speaker 1: It's multi dimensional, you know, as I mentioned earlier, the

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Speaker 1: society that we live in is out of line to

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Speaker 1: what we truly need, which is human human direct interaction.

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Speaker 1: So if we think about the factors that are contributing,

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Speaker 1: we can talk to the fact that us as humans,

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Speaker 1: we're a byproduct of nature and nurture, so our biology

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Speaker 1: as well as the environment that we are born in too.

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Speaker 1: If we think about biological factors, it's the hormones that

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Speaker 1: are kicking in, you know, those adolescent years, puberty, and

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Speaker 1: genetic predisposition. Oftentimes there is a family history of anxiety.

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Speaker 1: It does have a strong biological basis. Then there's environmental factors,

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Speaker 1: and we can talk to many different environmental factors that

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Speaker 1: are playing out in our young people's lives. So if

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Speaker 1: we think about environmental breaking it down into social factors,

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Speaker 1: psychological factors, social being. You know the impact of social media,

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Speaker 1: the impact of technology always on fear of missing out,

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Speaker 1: fear of being judged negatively, and that airbrushed version of

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Speaker 1: self perpetuating a myth that I have to be perfect

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Speaker 1: in order to be good enough, and that compare and

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Speaker 1: despair situation that's kicking in within our young girls. Environmental

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Speaker 1: might be traumatic life experiences, and there's many different versions

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Speaker 1: of traumatic life experiences, but really one of the primary

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Speaker 1: features of trauma is primary experiences of trauma can be bullying,

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Speaker 1: you know, when I'm working with kids, teens or adults.

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Speaker 1: This is one of the most significant factors that contributes

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Speaker 1: to social anxiety, so social anxiety being a fear of

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Speaker 1: being judged negatively, as well as performance anxiety, so a

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Speaker 1: fear of not being good enough, a fear of failure,

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Speaker 1: a fear of making a mistake. And some of these

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Speaker 1: environmental contributors really play into these particular kinds of anxiety presentations.

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Speaker 1: Notice I don't say anxiety disorder because really it's impacting.

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Speaker 1: As you talked to some really profound statistics there. This

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Speaker 1: is a factor that we need holistic intervention in schools.

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Speaker 1: We need to break down stigma, we need to take

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Speaker 1: on even more of a coaching philosophy in a therapeutic

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Speaker 1: environment as opposed to a clinical philosophy. In a therapeutic

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Speaker 1: environment where we are helping all girls.

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Speaker 2: There are a couple of different threads that I want

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Speaker 2: to pick up on in terms of what you've shared,

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Speaker 2: and I also want to put something to you for

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Speaker 2: a reaction. You might hate it. I'm really happy for

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Speaker 2: you to come back up me and say, no, this

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Speaker 2: is terrible, or there might be something in it, and

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Speaker 2: if there is, I'd love for you to go a

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Speaker 2: little bit deeper on it. But let's go backwards and

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Speaker 2: forwards on this for a sec. The first thing that

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Speaker 2: I want to put to you is, and it's the

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Speaker 2: way that you finished what you were just describing, you

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Speaker 2: were talking about in a therapeutic environment, the difference between

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Speaker 2: a clinical approach and a coaching approach. What I'm really

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Speaker 2: interested in and my provocation is this. The more that

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Speaker 2: I've spoken to over the last couple of years, and

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Speaker 2: the more that this has seemingly grown, this challenge with

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Speaker 2: children being so just struggling so much with unhealthy and

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Speaker 2: maladaptive presentations of anxiety at the wrong time, in the

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Speaker 2: wrong way, disproportionately large and impacting their ability to function well,

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Speaker 2: what I'm seeing a lot is that parents are trying

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Speaker 2: to be therapists to their children. That parents are trying

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Speaker 2: to step in and I don't know, investigate those feelings.

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Speaker 2: And now, I mean, emotional intelligence is really important, but

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Speaker 2: emotional intelligence doesn't mean being a therapist, and I think

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Speaker 2: that it's important to draw a distinction there. I don't

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Speaker 2: think that parents getting into the nitty gritty of what

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Speaker 2: is driving children's anxiety and trying to have lots of

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Speaker 2: conversations with them about it and checking in with them

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Speaker 2: about their anxiety and having ongoing discussion is about their feelings.

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Speaker 2: I don't think it's helping. I think that it's magnifying

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Speaker 2: an amplifying. I think that it's exacerbating the anxiety challenges

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Speaker 2: that kids are having because parents are trying to be therapists.

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Speaker 2: I know it's a provocative thing to say, and I

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Speaker 2: know I've kind of put you on the spot with it,

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Speaker 2: but I wonder if you have any initial reactions to that.

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Speaker 1: I would challenge that, to be honest, justin I would

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Speaker 1: challenge it because I want parents to feel empowered to

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Speaker 1: lean in, because this is one of the most important

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Speaker 1: factors parents are actually scared to have open conversations for

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Speaker 1: fear of actually not getting it right, and so what

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Speaker 1: parents can do typically is avoid the conversations, avoid the validation,

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Speaker 1: avoid leaning in. So I would much rather parents feel

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Speaker 1: confident and empowered and equipped with the tools to build

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Speaker 1: emotional literacy from the ground up. When I'm in the

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Speaker 1: clinic working with children and teens, I see parents as

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Speaker 1: an absolutely fundamental piece in that puzzle. And because as

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Speaker 1: a therapist, we have to think about working very in

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Speaker 1: a very united way with parents, with educators, with ourselves,

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Speaker 1: and empowering children and adolescents to be equipped with the

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Speaker 1: skills to be able to help themselves as well. So

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Speaker 1: I would only want to deliver positive and empowering messages

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Speaker 1: to parents. If they are motivated to learn how to

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Speaker 1: do the skills, then all the better for it is

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Speaker 1: my reaction to that.

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Speaker 2: So research definitely points to the most effective therapy when

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Speaker 2: children are dealing with any kind of psychological challenge, The

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Speaker 2: most effective therapy is actually with the parents, not the kids,

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Speaker 2: because the kids walk out and then they forget what

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Speaker 2: to do. Anyway, where the parents are going to be

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Speaker 2: much more effective in providing the support to their kids.

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Speaker 1: One hundred percent. We have to build a consistent language

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Speaker 1: and all lean in and recognize we're all on the

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Speaker 1: same page. We all want the best for our children,

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Speaker 1: for our adolescents. I have three kids myself, all filled

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Speaker 1: with magnificent complexity and challenge. It is never easy. It

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Speaker 1: is so hard as a parent, you know, and my

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Speaker 1: poor kids imagine having a clinical psychologist as a mum.

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Speaker 1: It's like talk about leaning in. So I think that

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Speaker 1: parents feel feel at a loss. You know, what the

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Speaker 1: hell do I do? This is so so tough, and

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Speaker 1: so I love the notion of parents leaning in to

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Speaker 1: be honest, and in that leaning in, it's thinking about

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Speaker 1: how can they do that in the best possible way,

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Speaker 1: And there are so many ways that they can, you know, ultimately,

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Speaker 1: and if I think about what are the key factors

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Speaker 1: to transformation in a clinical context or facilitating transformation, it's

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Speaker 1: not just the power of the skills and the strategies

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Speaker 1: and the tool kid, let's say, it is so much

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Speaker 1: the power of the relationship. And I'm so thrilled to

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Speaker 1: say that. At the Anxiety Clinic, you know, we've got

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Speaker 1: a huge team of magnificent psychologists that are all down

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Speaker 1: to earth and really ignited and inspired about those intangibles,

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Speaker 1: which is building trusting relationships in a confidential capacity. And

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Speaker 1: parents can absolutely fulfill this role. So what are the

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Speaker 1: key factors in that space? It is leaning in, but

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Speaker 1: it's not jumping quickly to problem. So you know, as parents,

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Speaker 1: we're fixes right. I'm sure Justin you can relate to this.

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Speaker 1: You want to take your children's pain away, You want

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Speaker 1: to fix and solve their problems. But sometimes the most

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Speaker 1: effective way to help our children and help our teens

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Speaker 1: is to validate, to validate, to acknowledge, to say, wow,

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Speaker 1: that is tough. That when you acknowledge so people, you know,

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Speaker 1: whether it's in a therapeutic context again or in a

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Speaker 1: coaching context, we miss that validation piece. We jump straight

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Speaker 1: problem solving. So I cannot emphasize enough. It's about acknowledging

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Speaker 1: the emotions that our kids, that our teenagers are experiencing,

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Speaker 1: whether it's boys or girls. It's there are so many similarities,

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Speaker 1: you know, and it's saying this sounds really tough, and

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Speaker 1: I hear you. You know, because if we jump to

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Speaker 1: problem solving straight away, what do our kids say? Justin,

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Speaker 1: When we jump to problem solving and we say you

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Speaker 1: know what you should do X, Y, and Z. I've

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Speaker 1: been there before, I've experienced this. Why don't you just

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Speaker 1: do such and such. What's the reaction that you get

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Speaker 1: in your home?

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Speaker 2: It makes kids feel incompetent. It's kind of like we've

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Speaker 2: just told them that they're not able to do it,

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Speaker 2: and we're there to save the day. I think that

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Speaker 2: it cripples our kids, even to the point where you

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Speaker 2: said before, there's a natural inclination on the part of

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Speaker 2: parents to make sure the kids don't go through that suffering,

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Speaker 2: that hard thing. I'm a little bit strange like this,

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Speaker 2: but when I see my kids suffering, my heart says, oh,

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Speaker 2: this is so tough for you. But I say to

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Speaker 2: my kids, this is really good for you. It's really

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Speaker 2: hard for me to watch and I want to help you,

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Speaker 2: but I'm so excited to watch you struggle through this

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Speaker 2: because the struggle makes you stronger. That approach, it's got

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Speaker 2: to be a resilience building approach, and so for me.

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Speaker 2: But I know that that's not normal. I know I'm

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Speaker 2: a bit weird like that.

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Speaker 1: Well, I think it's actually really powerful and really important.

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Speaker 1: What you say, a resilience building approach is what we

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Speaker 1: need because society is perpetuating, as I mentioned earlier, a

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Speaker 1: myth of perfection, a myth of say, and also that

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Speaker 1: parental pressure that I have to wrap my children in

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Speaker 1: cotton will. I have to fix their problems. I have

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Speaker 1: to be the perfect parents, and I have to always

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Speaker 1: take their pain away, you know, and as loving parents,

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Speaker 1: of course, that's what we want to do. However, what

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Speaker 1: we're doing in that process is undermining a capacity to

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Speaker 1: build resilience. And so this is perpetuated by a quick

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Speaker 1: fix society that we are all in. You know, I've

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Speaker 1: got a problem, Okay, press a button. I want something

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Speaker 1: to eat. Uber Eats. It is like quick fix, quick fix,

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Speaker 1: quick fix.

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Speaker 3: And so what you are delivering with your children is

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Speaker 3: a message that I believe in your ability to come

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Speaker 3: up with solutions for yourself.

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Speaker 2: It's doctor Jody Longer part of the breaking Point online

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Speaker 2: conference that we did at happy families dot com dot

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Speaker 2: you a little while ago. If you'd like to get

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Speaker 2: more of that conversation and the rest of the conference,

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Speaker 2: you can find the details at happy families dot com

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Speaker 2: dot you. The Happy Families podcast is produced by Justin

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Speaker 2: Roland from Bridge Media and for more information, about making

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Speaker 2: your family happy. Please visit us at happy families dot

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Speaker 2: com dot au