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Speaker 1: You've heard it a million times now, improving your writing

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Speaker 1: will make you better at just about any modern job.

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Speaker 1: But is that really the case and if it is, why,

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Speaker 1: how does it actually work? And most importantly, how do

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Speaker 1: you actually improve your skills as a writer? And Handley,

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Speaker 1: a digital marketing pioneer and Wall Street Journal best selling author,

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Speaker 1: has spent her career writing, thinking about writing, and helping

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Speaker 1: others get better at writing. She breaks down why effective

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Speaker 1: writing is so important across all industries, and she shares

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Speaker 1: the best ways to hone your own writing skills. My

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Speaker 1: name is doctor amanthe Imber. I'm an organizational psychologist and

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Speaker 1: the founder of behavioral science consultancy Inventium, and this is

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Speaker 1: how I work a show about how to help you

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Speaker 1: do your best work. So, through her writing and has

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Speaker 1: given me so many amazing tips to be a better writer,

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Speaker 1: especially in her best selling book Everybody Writes. So I

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Speaker 1: wanted to know what's the best advice and has ever

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Speaker 1: received on how to be a better writer.

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Speaker 2: I think the best advice that I ever got to

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Speaker 2: about writing in general, which inspired me to become a

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Speaker 2: better writer, is that the more well I should say,

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Speaker 2: the better you can write, the more capable you are.

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Speaker 2: The more confident a writer you are, the more successful

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Speaker 2: you will be in no matter what your chosen field is.

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Speaker 2: The person who told me that was a college professor

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Speaker 2: I had, I think my freshman freshman year of college,

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Speaker 2: and his name was Sean Gresh, and he taught communication

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Speaker 2: of some kind. I was at communications and journalism and

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Speaker 2: English major and he taught something in community. I don't

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Speaker 2: remember the name of the class. I don't remember any

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Speaker 2: of my classmates. I don't remember the material, but I

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Speaker 2: do remember Sean Gresh, and I remember him saying that

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Speaker 2: to me directly. I remember what we were doing. We

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Speaker 2: were standing in his classroom after class had gotten out,

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Speaker 2: and I don't even remember what precipitated it or why

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Speaker 2: he felt that he had to share that with me,

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Speaker 2: but he shared it with me, and I think of that.

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Speaker 2: I kid you, not, at least I don't know, two

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Speaker 2: or three times a week still like I've been out

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Speaker 2: of college for decades, and I still think about that,

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Speaker 2: and I still tell my kids. I'd tell any younger

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Speaker 2: professionals in my life. I wrote it. I signed a

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Speaker 2: copy of my book for a friend's daughter who just

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Speaker 2: graduated from college because I think of it all the time,

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Speaker 2: and I think it's one hundred percent true. It's not

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Speaker 2: about necessarily writing like the act of writing, Yes, that

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Speaker 2: is important, but really what that means is that you're

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Speaker 2: able to distill your thoughts and your ideas and communicate

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Speaker 2: them in something in a way that will inspire other people,

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Speaker 2: that will galvanize them, that will make your ideas understood

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Speaker 2: and ultimately accepted and successful. And I just have found

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Speaker 2: that to be so true. Like every professional anything, like

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Speaker 2: any professional accolade, any professional success that I've had in

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Speaker 2: my life, I can trace back to the fact that

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Speaker 2: I can write and that I'm constantly working on my writing. Now.

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Speaker 1: One of the hats that you wear is as an editor,

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Speaker 1: and you read a lot of writing and edit a

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Speaker 1: lot of people's writing. Is as part of what you do.

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Speaker 1: I want to understand what are some of your biggest

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Speaker 1: pet paves with different types of writing that you're reading

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Speaker 1: as part of your work. And I want to actually

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Speaker 1: start with Amiles, not that you're sitting editing Amiles fit.

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Speaker 1: I imagine you're probably reading Amiles through a different lens

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Speaker 1: than most of us. What are your biggest pet peeves

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Speaker 1: when you read other Paople's emails.

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Speaker 2: You know, one of the things that just bothers me

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Speaker 2: about writing in general is that we do think that

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Speaker 2: the ability to write well is geared toward knowing the

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Speaker 2: rules of grammar. And to some degree that's kind of true,

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Speaker 2: but it's not just that. I mean, it's so much

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Speaker 2: more than that, And so when I think about pet peeves,

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Speaker 2: it's mostly about just loosening up and just letting your

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Speaker 2: own voice come out. I was reading something this morning

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Speaker 2: that was sent to me from a friend who's her

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Speaker 2: mom had written it. Her mom works for as a

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Speaker 2: superintendent of schools, and as I was reading it, I

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Speaker 2: was like, oh my goodness, it feels like it was

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Speaker 2: written by a robot. It's like and actually, even modern

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Speaker 2: AI robots could write better than this. You could sense

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Speaker 2: her anxiety, her fear, her just like her inability to

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Speaker 2: let go of like sounding professional in a certain way.

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Speaker 2: So that's kind of thing that bothers me more than

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Speaker 2: anything else. Like I don't really have pet peeves about

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Speaker 2: you know, spelling or grammar, because I you know, you

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Speaker 2: can learn all that, Like that's fixable, it's editable. But

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Speaker 2: it's more when people don't trust their own voice and

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Speaker 2: when they don't use their own voice.

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Speaker 1: So then one of the most common mistakes that you

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Speaker 1: say people make in things that they write.

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Speaker 2: One of the things is we tend to almost write

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Speaker 2: a preamble before we get into what we want to say.

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Speaker 2: I see this a lot with individuals who are looking

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Speaker 2: to I don't know, like write a blog post, or

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Speaker 2: you see it in books a lot too, or you

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Speaker 2: see it all over the place, and once you'll once

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Speaker 2: you notice it, you'll notice it all the time. It's

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Speaker 2: the kind of thing like once you see it, you'll

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Speaker 2: just like you'll notice it everywhere. And that is, you know,

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Speaker 2: rather than just getting right into something, right into the

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Speaker 2: issue that you're talking about or something that you want

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Speaker 2: to say, instead, we tend to do a lot of like, well,

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Speaker 2: you know, the purpose of this post is this, and

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Speaker 2: the reason why I'm doing this is because you know,

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Speaker 2: it's like, forget about that, so let it all go,

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Speaker 2: just get right into what it is that you want

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Speaker 2: to say. I talk about that as a kind of

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Speaker 2: taking a running start when you're beginning a piece, Like

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Speaker 2: it's fine to take a running start to kind of

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Speaker 2: warm up, but then what you should do is go

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Speaker 2: back and lop off like the first paragraph. Can you

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Speaker 2: lop off the first paragraph? And does it still make sense?

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Speaker 2: Can I get into this quicker? Can I get into

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Speaker 2: it faster? You know, because we are all distracted, you know,

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Speaker 2: we had a lot going on all the time, and

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Speaker 2: you don't want to waste anybody's time.

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Speaker 1: It's being the eight years since he wrote the first

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Speaker 1: edition of Everybody Writes, which I remember one of my

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Speaker 1: teammates quite a few years ago, she gave me this

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Speaker 1: book and she said, this is the best book I've

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Speaker 1: read on writing. And I said, oh, I have to

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Speaker 1: read it. And I read it, and I agreed with him.

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Speaker 1: It was absolutely the best book that I've ever read

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Speaker 1: about how to be a better writer. And now reading

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Speaker 1: the second edition, it's such a joy, like revisiting things

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Speaker 1: that I learned and learning more things. I'm curious as

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Speaker 1: to how, like, what are the things that you've learned

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Speaker 1: in the last eight years that have made you a

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Speaker 1: better writer.

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Speaker 2: So my intention was to do the equivalent of you know, uh,

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Speaker 2: you know, running the vacuum over the place, maybe doing

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Speaker 2: a little light dusting, you know, maybe spray some like

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Speaker 2: you know, like spray some for breathe around and like

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Speaker 2: freshen it up in that way. Then I sat down

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Speaker 2: to read it again just to start making some notes,

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Speaker 2: and I thought, you know, I'll probably end up with

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Speaker 2: like maybe ten pages of notes of things that I

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Speaker 2: need to change. But as I started reading, I kept

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Speaker 2: writing things down and writing things down. Next thing I know,

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Speaker 2: I had thirty pages of notes and then forty pages

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Speaker 2: of notes, and I was like, uh, oh, I think

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Speaker 2: what we're going to do here is not a dusting

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Speaker 2: and not a vacuuming, not for breething defresh, and instead

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Speaker 2: what we're going to do is take it right down

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Speaker 2: to the studs and we're going to build it from

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Speaker 2: the ground up. So to your point, it's like, yeah,

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Speaker 2: a lot of the bones are there, like a lot

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Speaker 2: is similar, but there's also a whole lot of new

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Speaker 2: stuff in it, and a lot of that reflects my thinking. So,

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Speaker 2: for example, in the first edition, I talked about thirteen

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Speaker 2: things that we as creators, as entrepreneurs, as businesses right

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Speaker 2: as business owners. Right in the second edition there's twenty things. Now,

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Speaker 2: why is that? It's not because I discovered there's like,

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Speaker 2: you know, things that have been around forever. It's because

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Speaker 2: they've happened in the past eight years. You know, it's

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Speaker 2: because now we are writing a whole lot more, we're

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Speaker 2: communicating a whole lot more. There's new channels and new

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Speaker 2: new areas of communication that we need to explore. And

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Speaker 2: in some cases my thinking has expanded too. Like in

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Speaker 2: the first edition, I had a very very thin chapter

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Speaker 2: about email. The second edition I have three chapters all

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Speaker 2: about email, email, newsletters, direct response email, and why I

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Speaker 2: believe so strongly and in email as a communication tool.

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Speaker 2: So of that had changed, But you know, what's more

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Speaker 2: than that, And I think this kind of answers your question,

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Speaker 2: like I've changed, you know, because one of the things

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Speaker 2: that I really realized what I went through and started

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Speaker 2: reading the first edition of the book in anticipation of

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Speaker 2: writing the next edition, was that how different my voice sounded.

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Speaker 2: And as I read the first edition, I almost didn't

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Speaker 2: recognize the writer, even though the writer was me, even

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Speaker 2: though I wrote that, you know, eight or nine years ago,

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Speaker 2: at this point, I didn't recognize how I phrased things.

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Speaker 2: And I sensed, this writer feels a little bit uptight,

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Speaker 2: and this writer feels like, you know, she has some anxiety,

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Speaker 2: and that was me. So one of the things I

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Speaker 2: did was kind of got rid of all that. I

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Speaker 2: kind of addressed it head on and just rewrote it

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Speaker 2: with my own voice now. And what I've done over

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Speaker 2: the past, you know, eight years since the first edition,

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Speaker 2: in particularly i'd say in the last four or five years,

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Speaker 2: is that I've been a much more consistent creator in

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Speaker 2: a public way, so that even though I wrote a

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Speaker 2: book like I just I wasn't necessarily practicing writing on

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Speaker 2: a regular basis. And what I've done is I've launched

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Speaker 2: an email newsletter, for example, And the significance of that

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Speaker 2: is that I publish every other Sunday. And that means

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Speaker 2: that I have a deadline that I set for myself

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Speaker 2: every other Sunday I have to whether I want to

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Speaker 2: or not. I'm communicating with an audience, offering them value.

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Speaker 2: And it's taught me a lot about how to engage

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Speaker 2: others through my writing, just through that the kind of

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Speaker 2: practice of that email newsletter. So it's not just an

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Speaker 2: email newsletter. Really what it is is it's really it's

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Speaker 2: been it's been a way that I've grown, like as

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Speaker 2: a writer, I mean, certainly like marketing has changed, channels

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Speaker 2: have changed, all the things that you know that that

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Speaker 2: are new in marketing, but also our world has changed.

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Speaker 2: You know, we are here in you know, at the

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Speaker 2: very end of twenty twenty two, you and I were

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Speaker 2: talking heading into twenty twenty three, and we're still in

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Speaker 2: a post COVID world, and we were always being in

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Speaker 2: a post COVID world, but we're still you know, the

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Speaker 2: effects of it are still with us, and so that, yeah,

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Speaker 2: there's a lot of things that have changed. We've changed,

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Speaker 2: the world has changed, marketing has changed, and I've changed.

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Speaker 1: We will be back soon with how to find your

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Speaker 1: own voice when it comes to writing, along with Ann's

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Speaker 1: thoughts on AI writing tools. If you're looking for more

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Speaker 1: tips to improve the way that you work, I write

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Speaker 1: a short fortnightly newsletter that contains three cool things that

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Speaker 1: I've discovered that helped me work better, ranging from software

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Speaker 1: and gadgets that I'm loving through the interesting research findings.

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Speaker 1: You can sign up for that at Howiwork dot code.

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Speaker 1: That's how I Work dot co. You mentioned how the

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Speaker 1: voice of Ann had changed in the last eight years,

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Speaker 1: and I guess you know you could call that your

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Speaker 1: your brand voice. I'm curious as to how have you

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Speaker 1: got about developing or finding your brand voice, because I

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Speaker 1: feel like it's something that a lot of people struggle

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Speaker 1: with and they feel like they just have to fit

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Speaker 1: into the corporate brand for example, that they work within.

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Speaker 2: A big misconception about brand voice is that it's something

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Speaker 2: you find. You know that it doesn't exist and you

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Speaker 2: like are are walking in the forest one day and

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Speaker 2: you trip over it. No, it's like, oh, look there's

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Speaker 2: my brand voice. Like it doesn't work that way. Instead,

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Speaker 2: it's actually something that's already inside you. I mean, it's

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Speaker 2: already there, and I think it's about tapping into it

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Speaker 2: and allowing it to come out, having the confidence to

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Speaker 2: let it out, all of those things instead of finding

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Speaker 2: your voice because we all, you know, we all have it.

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Speaker 2: It's not like an artificial thing that's like thrust upon

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Speaker 2: us externally. Instead, it's within us. When we're working with

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Speaker 2: brands though, Like say, for example, if I'm a content

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Speaker 2: creator who is writing I don't know, maybe writing blog

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Speaker 2: posts for like a big corporate brand, Well, like how

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Speaker 2: do I figure out like using my voice within that construct?

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Speaker 2: I mean, think about the parameters of your brand? Who

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Speaker 2: are you? What do you stand for? Not you personally,

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Speaker 2: but the brand you work for, Like what are they

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Speaker 2: all about? Like they should have some parameters around their

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Speaker 2: own around their own voice, like in some kind of

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Speaker 2: voice guide or something like that. I talk about that

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Speaker 2: in the second edition. But that doesn't mean that you

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Speaker 2: have to write like them, Like you're not shoving your

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Speaker 2: voice into those into that construct. Instead, it's about how

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Speaker 2: do I use my voice within that construct. So I

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Speaker 2: think of it as kind of like like guardrails. You know,

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Speaker 2: it makes sure you don't like fly off into like

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Speaker 2: no man's land and like crash and burn. But at

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Speaker 2: the same time, you know, it's not meant to be

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Speaker 2: restrictive either. So when I think about brand voice, that's

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Speaker 2: how I think about it.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, it's interesting the idea that it's it's not something

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Speaker 1: that you find or that you look for. It's kind

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Speaker 1: of I guess, tapping into what's already within us. What

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Speaker 1: advice would you give individuals who are just trying to

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Speaker 1: sort of uncover, like what is their actual voice as

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Speaker 1: opposed to the voice that they've almost been trained to

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Speaker 1: talk in, like in emails and reports that is typically

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Speaker 1: very formal for a lot of us.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, I think the best thing you can

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Speaker 2: do is just start, start creating. You know, the only

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Speaker 2: way that you can really understand how to write is

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Speaker 2: by practicing your your words, like practice your voice, and

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Speaker 2: that's the way that you can tap into it. Again.

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Speaker 2: Your voice is already in you. You just have to

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Speaker 2: figure out you know, what it is and how to

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Speaker 2: use it. I mean, the only way that I know

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Speaker 2: how to become a better writer is and to find

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Speaker 2: your voice. It's it's kind of one and the same.

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Speaker 2: I think it's about practicing, you know, and it's about

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Speaker 2: keeping a daily a daily habit. We forget that writing

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Speaker 2: is as simple as you know, like working out, like

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Speaker 2: going to the gym. Like you can't have a gym

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Speaker 2: membership and never show up and expect to, you know,

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Speaker 2: be stronger or buffer or better looking or have you know,

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Speaker 2: a tighter bottom or any of it. Right, It's just

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Speaker 2: not going to happen. You've got to put in the reps,

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Speaker 2: you've got to do the work. You've got to work

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Speaker 2: your muscles. And the same thing is true about writing.

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Speaker 2: You know, you can't just expect to find your voice

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Speaker 2: if you're not actively engaging it, if you're not actively

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Speaker 2: trying to build that muscle. That's ultimately what gave me

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Speaker 2: the confidence and the ability to really hone my voice

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Speaker 2: just because I showed up every two weeks and I

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Speaker 2: used it. And the other thing that I did is

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Speaker 2: I started keeping a daily journal. I always had a

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Speaker 2: really hard time with writing daily and anything. Like. For example,

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Speaker 2: I was a really like bookish kid, right, I wanted

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Speaker 2: to be a writer from the time that I was

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Speaker 2: a little kid. I wanted to like I always loved

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Speaker 2: creating stories and that kind of thing. And so what

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Speaker 2: do people give like bookish kids who want to be

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Speaker 2: writers for a holiday? They give them diaries? Right, So

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Speaker 2: I my family, my aunts, my uncles, my my my

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Speaker 2: extended family was always giving me diaries. I must have

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Speaker 2: had a stack of them by the time I was

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Speaker 2: like ten years old. But the thing is, I would

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Speaker 2: like start writing in it. Like day one, I was

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Speaker 2: like gung ho, going to do it, Day two, day three,

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Speaker 2: And then by day six or seven, I was like, ugh,

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Speaker 2: it was like so boring. You know, I can't stand

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Speaker 2: writing about my life. It's like I've already lived it.

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Speaker 2: I have nothing else to say. And again I was

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Speaker 2: a pretty young kid. But over the years, I've like

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Speaker 2: tried it, tried to keep that daily writing habit again,

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Speaker 2: like the idea of like putting in the reps. It's

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Speaker 2: like I should keep a diary, and like that's the mantra,

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Speaker 2: isn't it that writers all have journals and that they

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Speaker 2: all like record their thoughts and like they're they're so

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Speaker 2: their their deepest thoughts and ideas and fears and all

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Speaker 2: of that. And so I had, like I've alternately had

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Speaker 2: like two reactions, so that one would be like, you know,

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Speaker 2: all writers keep a journal, I'd be like, yeah, well

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Speaker 2: not me, SECAs so oh well. Or the other way

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Speaker 2: I'd feel was like you know, all writers keep a journal.

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Speaker 2: I'd be like, oh, what is wrong with me? You know?

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Speaker 2: So I had these two like things like at a

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Speaker 2: at at it were in conflict with with with one

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Speaker 2: another inside of me, until finally one day I thought,

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Speaker 2: you know what, maybe I'm just doing it wrong. Like

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Speaker 2: maybe instead of just writing my thoughts and feelings and

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Speaker 2: fears and ideas, maybe instead what I should do is

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Speaker 2: just like use it to as a place to record

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Speaker 2: stories like things that happen in my life in the

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Speaker 2: world around me. Maybe I should just start start doing

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Speaker 2: it and just commit to it. And so I made

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Speaker 2: a commitment A right you, I'm gonna do it for

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Speaker 2: ninety days, want to see what happens. And that's exactly

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Speaker 2: what I did. So I call it my fifteen minutes

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Speaker 2: of Sunday because Sunday mornings for me are very like

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Speaker 2: slow and like contemporlative kind of time. It's like the

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Speaker 2: only morning of the week where I don't feel like

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Speaker 2: an urgency to rush off and in some kind of industry.

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Speaker 2: So this fifteen minutes of Sunday is like I now

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Speaker 2: practic that every single day. And instead of writing down

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Speaker 2: things like I don't know, like things that I'm afraid of,

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Speaker 2: or things that I hope for or wish for, or

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Speaker 2: like any emotions or anything like that that does like

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Speaker 2: that kind of journal keeping doesn't work for me, Like

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Speaker 2: I know it works for other people, no shade, but

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Speaker 2: doesn't work for me. So I thought, instead of that,

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Speaker 2: I'm just gonna like write down a conversation that I

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Speaker 2: heard at the post office between a patron at the

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Speaker 2: post office who was trying to buy stamps and the

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Speaker 2: person at the window who was like they were just

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Speaker 2: not they were not communicating, you know, they just could

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Speaker 2: not get on the same page for whatever reason. It

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Speaker 2: was a ridiculous conversation, and it was so funny because

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Speaker 2: it was like they just they weren't listening to one

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Speaker 2: another at all, and it became like for all of

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Speaker 2: us in line, it kind of became a study in

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Speaker 2: like how how it's it's easy when you when you

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Speaker 2: lack empathy for the other person, how you truly cannot

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Speaker 2: hear what they're saying. And so that's exactly what was

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Speaker 2: going on with these two. So that's the kind of

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Speaker 2: thing like that I would write down, and I'm just

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Speaker 2: sharing that story with you as a way to tell

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Speaker 2: you like that, ultimately is what helped me find my voice,

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Speaker 2: you know, having that daily practice ultimately is what has

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Speaker 2: contributed to just me being a more confident and capable writer.

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Speaker 1: Your writing is really funny, like everybody writes is laugh

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Speaker 1: out loud funny. And you mentioned in the book that

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Speaker 1: concerning humor is typically what you do in the edits

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Speaker 1: as opposed to the first draft. And I was curious

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Speaker 1: as to how do you identify those opportunities for humor,

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Speaker 1: Like what strategies are you using to inject humor when

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Speaker 1: you're doing the edits.

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Speaker 2: I don't know that it's a strategy. I guess it's

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Speaker 2: just I'm always looking to make anything that I write

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Speaker 2: more visually engaging, and so a lot of my humor

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Speaker 2: comes out of that. You know, I want to paint

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Speaker 2: a pick sure in the mind of the reader, and

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Speaker 2: I want to paint a picture in a way that's memorable,

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Speaker 2: and so sometimes I'll just think about the most ridiculous

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Speaker 2: scenario that I possibly can metaphorically speaking, and I'll just

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Speaker 2: articulate that. So, for example, this past weekend, I was

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Speaker 2: writing about AI writing tools. Right, AI writing platforms. Everyone's

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Speaker 2: talking about them. Chat GPT just came out and everybody

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Speaker 2: is like, oh my god, it's revolutionary to writing, and

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Speaker 2: oh my god, we're never gonna have to write again

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Speaker 2: because now we have robots to do it for us,

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Speaker 2: and like, oh, there's so much hysteria and emotion and

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Speaker 2: like attitude about it. And I was like, oh, for

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Speaker 2: God's sake, like calm down. Everyone. I wrote about that.

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Speaker 2: I wrote about how I think about AI writing tools

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Speaker 2: and where I see them as beneficial to writers to creators,

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Speaker 2: and one of the analogies that I made was that,

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Speaker 2: you know, my hope is that at some point an

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Speaker 2: AI writing tool will start to challenge us as writers

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Speaker 2: a little bit, like I would relish that kind of

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Speaker 2: writing tool in my life. And so the analogy that

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Speaker 2: I said is, like, you know, wouldn't it be amazing

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Speaker 2: if and I laid out all these scenarios, and one

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Speaker 2: of them was if an ai writing tool could show

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Speaker 2: us that this leap of logic that we made is

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Speaker 2: as wide as the Grand Canyon, and that there's no

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Speaker 2: way for us to get from here to the other side,

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Speaker 2: for the reader to get from here to the other

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Speaker 2: side unless you give them a like a pack mule

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Speaker 2: or a burrow right to like sort of go down

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Speaker 2: into the canyon and get them up to the other side.

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Speaker 2: And so that's just a visual way of saying it's

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Speaker 2: too big of a leap of logic. Right, So that's

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Speaker 2: where my humor comes from. It's my impulse, I guess,

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Speaker 2: or my wish just to tell stories in a way

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Speaker 2: that are memorable and like that to me, like thinking

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Speaker 2: about a leap of logic as like literally like an

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Speaker 2: idea or the reader maybe with our you know, getting

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Speaker 2: onto a mule or a donkey and like going to

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Speaker 2: the end of the of the into the bottom of

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Speaker 2: the Grand canyon that out the other side, until finally, Oh,

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Speaker 2: I get what they were saying, Like that's the idea,

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Speaker 2: Like somehow the ideas is traversing. They're able to traverse

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Speaker 2: this leap of logic through the donkey if we lead

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Speaker 2: them there. They just made me laugh, and so I thought, Yeah,

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Speaker 2: that's funny.

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Speaker 1: I love that advice about thinking about how you can

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Speaker 1: make your writing more visual to inject more humor. And

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Speaker 1: I definitely that really resonates after reading your book. But

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Speaker 1: I also feel like you're so great. I don't know.

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Speaker 1: They're almost like little little quips is the best way

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Speaker 1: I can describe them along the journey of reading your book.

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Speaker 1: Where do they come from? Is that from just being

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Speaker 1: in touch with the voice of Ann or is it

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Speaker 1: something else like whips?

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Speaker 2: Like what like? What do you mean? Let me have

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Speaker 2: a look.

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Speaker 1: Let me see if I can find something like things

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Speaker 1: like okay, all right? In other words, I make a list.

432
00:22:51,720 --> 00:22:53,639
Speaker 1: It feels us intimidating to make a list than it

433
00:22:53,680 --> 00:22:55,640
Speaker 1: does to write. Do you ever feel stumped about where

434
00:22:55,640 --> 00:22:57,480
Speaker 1: to begin a shopping list, to do list, a wish

435
00:22:57,520 --> 00:23:01,400
Speaker 1: list for Santa? Me? Neither and maynay that it's kind

436
00:23:01,440 --> 00:23:04,399
Speaker 1: of like, that's that's the queep, that's that's sort of

437
00:23:04,440 --> 00:23:04,880
Speaker 1: what I make.

438
00:23:04,920 --> 00:23:08,400
Speaker 2: I say, Yeah, yeah, a conversation with you. Yeah, that's

439
00:23:08,400 --> 00:23:10,639
Speaker 2: all it is. It's like I think that's just the

440
00:23:10,640 --> 00:23:14,320
Speaker 2: way that I approached this book in particular, was feeling

441
00:23:14,359 --> 00:23:18,320
Speaker 2: like it was a conversation with me. And so yeah,

442
00:23:18,320 --> 00:23:20,960
Speaker 2: that's where that me either comes from. The Santa thing though,

443
00:23:21,080 --> 00:23:23,159
Speaker 2: actually comes from what we were talking about six a

444
00:23:23,160 --> 00:23:25,639
Speaker 2: second ago, like thinking about making a list. Like I

445
00:23:25,640 --> 00:23:27,120
Speaker 2: could have just said, do you ever get stuck when

446
00:23:27,119 --> 00:23:29,520
Speaker 2: you're making a shopping list? Like full stop? But like

447
00:23:29,560 --> 00:23:32,000
Speaker 2: what if you took that to its illogical conclusion? Right?

448
00:23:32,000 --> 00:23:33,760
Speaker 2: Like what if you kept pushing that? What other kinds

449
00:23:33,760 --> 00:23:35,960
Speaker 2: of lists are there? There's like yeah, there's shopping lists

450
00:23:36,040 --> 00:23:38,080
Speaker 2: or there's like all kinds of like but you know

451
00:23:38,080 --> 00:23:40,359
Speaker 2: who else has a list is like Santa, Right, Santa

452
00:23:40,359 --> 00:23:43,560
Speaker 2: makes a list, he checks it twice. So it's like

453
00:23:43,640 --> 00:23:48,159
Speaker 2: it's just thinking, taking an idea, a metaphor, and just

454
00:23:48,240 --> 00:23:50,960
Speaker 2: like really pushing it as far as you can. That's

455
00:23:50,960 --> 00:23:53,240
Speaker 2: where I get. That's where a lot of the humor lives,

456
00:23:53,280 --> 00:23:56,800
Speaker 2: and that's where I think a lot of the it's

457
00:23:56,960 --> 00:23:59,560
Speaker 2: that's a lot of what my voices is about. Sometimes,

458
00:23:59,560 --> 00:24:01,680
Speaker 2: by the way, I can get stuck in that shtick though,

459
00:24:01,800 --> 00:24:03,239
Speaker 2: you know, and I have to be really careful with

460
00:24:03,280 --> 00:24:05,719
Speaker 2: it because sometimes it's too much, Like you can do

461
00:24:05,760 --> 00:24:08,000
Speaker 2: too much of that and it doesn't. It starts to

462
00:24:08,080 --> 00:24:12,320
Speaker 2: feel too annoying, you know, it starts to feel cloying.

463
00:24:12,400 --> 00:24:16,840
Speaker 2: It starts to feel like you're sacrificing clarity for the

464
00:24:16,920 --> 00:24:21,000
Speaker 2: reader for the laugh, like for yourself, you know. So

465
00:24:21,040 --> 00:24:23,840
Speaker 2: you have to be careful that you're not too selfish

466
00:24:23,880 --> 00:24:26,840
Speaker 2: with that, if you know what I mean. So every

467
00:24:26,920 --> 00:24:31,240
Speaker 2: single paragraph, line, sentence can't be like that. You've got

468
00:24:31,240 --> 00:24:33,880
Speaker 2: to really think about the pacing with which you're sort

469
00:24:33,920 --> 00:24:37,640
Speaker 2: of dropping those bits of humor, bits of personality, little

470
00:24:37,880 --> 00:24:41,639
Speaker 2: equips as you call them, because otherwise it just becomes

471
00:24:41,680 --> 00:24:43,960
Speaker 2: like it feels like writing. It feels overwhelming, and the

472
00:24:44,000 --> 00:24:46,560
Speaker 2: reader is like, oh, for God's sakes, like get over yourself,

473
00:24:46,640 --> 00:24:48,359
Speaker 2: you know, like you're not that funny. It's like, I

474
00:24:48,440 --> 00:24:51,840
Speaker 2: just give me the information. So, you know, in a

475
00:24:51,840 --> 00:24:54,680
Speaker 2: book like this, ultimately it needs to be it needs

476
00:24:54,720 --> 00:24:57,280
Speaker 2: to serve the reader first, So the entertainment has to

477
00:24:57,280 --> 00:24:59,720
Speaker 2: come second. So I was very aware of that. I

478
00:24:59,760 --> 00:25:04,040
Speaker 2: didn't use everything like you know, it starts to sound unhinged.

479
00:25:04,080 --> 00:25:06,480
Speaker 2: In other words, you know, I start to sound like

480
00:25:06,480 --> 00:25:10,320
Speaker 2: like I don't know if if you follow, if you

481
00:25:10,359 --> 00:25:13,119
Speaker 2: follow any like big brands on TikTok, but there's some

482
00:25:13,160 --> 00:25:16,680
Speaker 2: real unhinged brands on TikTok. Right, So dual lingo, for example,

483
00:25:16,720 --> 00:25:19,240
Speaker 2: you start to sound like the dual lingo owl like yeah,

484
00:25:19,480 --> 00:25:20,879
Speaker 2: and it's like you don't want to go to ones

485
00:25:20,920 --> 00:25:22,879
Speaker 2: like that, like you don't want to be that. You

486
00:25:22,960 --> 00:25:27,600
Speaker 2: ultimately want to be just just sprinkling in enough of

487
00:25:27,640 --> 00:25:30,280
Speaker 2: that so it feels fun, but not to the point

488
00:25:30,280 --> 00:25:33,159
Speaker 2: where it just gets like too much and too heavy

489
00:25:33,200 --> 00:25:34,360
Speaker 2: and annoying.

490
00:25:35,040 --> 00:25:37,320
Speaker 1: I want to talk about technology because you have a

491
00:25:37,359 --> 00:25:41,920
Speaker 1: whole bunch of tips and various tools that you use

492
00:25:42,480 --> 00:25:47,360
Speaker 1: where technology can help you be a better writer. And look,

493
00:25:47,440 --> 00:25:51,320
Speaker 1: since earlier we were talking about chat JPT, what are

494
00:25:51,359 --> 00:25:55,040
Speaker 1: some of the tools that you're using, you know, whether

495
00:25:55,040 --> 00:25:59,520
Speaker 1: they're AI or other technology to help improve your writing.

496
00:26:00,520 --> 00:26:03,639
Speaker 2: Yeah, I list a bunch of them in there. I mean,

497
00:26:03,680 --> 00:26:05,960
Speaker 2: there's just some basic things that I use. I use

498
00:26:05,960 --> 00:26:11,600
Speaker 2: grammarly all the time just to you know, kind of

499
00:26:11,600 --> 00:26:17,840
Speaker 2: correct things sometimes my emails and whatnot. I run everything

500
00:26:17,880 --> 00:26:21,080
Speaker 2: that I write, like every newsletter, every blog post, that

501
00:26:21,160 --> 00:26:24,080
Speaker 2: kind of thing. Not necessarily like every single email or tweet.

502
00:26:24,200 --> 00:26:26,240
Speaker 2: I don't go to that extreme, but I run almost

503
00:26:26,280 --> 00:26:29,399
Speaker 2: everything else through the Grammarly tool. Anothery're one of my

504
00:26:29,440 --> 00:26:33,159
Speaker 2: favorite tools, and this is mostly just or word choice

505
00:26:33,160 --> 00:26:36,719
Speaker 2: for me. It's called related words dot org. It's all

506
00:26:36,760 --> 00:26:39,520
Speaker 2: one word related words. The thing I like about that

507
00:26:39,840 --> 00:26:43,879
Speaker 2: is that very often, if I'm stuck with anything, like

508
00:26:43,920 --> 00:26:45,399
Speaker 2: if I'm just not sure where to go, I'll just

509
00:26:45,440 --> 00:26:48,119
Speaker 2: go to related words and I'll put in a word

510
00:26:48,359 --> 00:26:50,520
Speaker 2: just like something that I'm thinking about or writing about.

511
00:26:50,680 --> 00:26:52,080
Speaker 2: The thing I like about it is that it's not

512
00:26:52,080 --> 00:26:54,280
Speaker 2: like a straight up the source or a dictionary. Instead,

513
00:26:54,280 --> 00:26:57,360
Speaker 2: it literally delivers, like related words, words that are related

514
00:26:57,400 --> 00:27:00,000
Speaker 2: to that word. And I like that tool a lot.

515
00:27:00,080 --> 00:27:03,080
Speaker 2: It's very simple. It's not high tech at all. It's

516
00:27:03,080 --> 00:27:05,840
Speaker 2: just a website, very simple interface. But I like it

517
00:27:05,880 --> 00:27:08,480
Speaker 2: because it jogs my own memory and it jogs my

518
00:27:08,520 --> 00:27:08,960
Speaker 2: own brain.

519
00:27:10,440 --> 00:27:14,760
Speaker 1: What other software have you found useful, you know, over

520
00:27:14,800 --> 00:27:17,080
Speaker 1: the past few years. Maybe you're not currently using it,

521
00:27:17,119 --> 00:27:19,639
Speaker 1: but you've got some utility out of it at some point.

522
00:27:20,280 --> 00:27:23,880
Speaker 2: Yeah, Scrivener is one that I've used to write books.

523
00:27:24,040 --> 00:27:27,440
Speaker 2: Scrivener is a basically it's it's a way to help

524
00:27:27,600 --> 00:27:33,280
Speaker 2: organize and and write something long form. So it's overkill

525
00:27:33,280 --> 00:27:34,880
Speaker 2: if you're just going to use it for a blog post.

526
00:27:34,880 --> 00:27:38,680
Speaker 2: But if you're looking for something to help you organize

527
00:27:38,720 --> 00:27:42,240
Speaker 2: like a book or like an ebook or research paper,

528
00:27:42,280 --> 00:27:45,000
Speaker 2: something long form in other words, like more than say

529
00:27:45,040 --> 00:27:48,040
Speaker 2: like I don't know five or six thousand words, then

530
00:27:48,080 --> 00:27:50,320
Speaker 2: I think it's a really helpful tool, especially if it

531
00:27:50,359 --> 00:27:53,680
Speaker 2: has like multiple components or chapters or sections. So scrivener

532
00:27:53,800 --> 00:27:56,240
Speaker 2: is like a great tool for long form. It's how

533
00:27:56,280 --> 00:28:00,240
Speaker 2: I write my books. Essentially, it's just easier to move

534
00:28:00,320 --> 00:28:02,520
Speaker 2: things around that it is by using something like word

535
00:28:02,560 --> 00:28:04,000
Speaker 2: or Google Docs or something like that.

536
00:28:04,560 --> 00:28:06,680
Speaker 1: One final thing I'd love to know is that you

537
00:28:06,760 --> 00:28:09,720
Speaker 1: must have received so much feedback from raiders. I'd love

538
00:28:09,760 --> 00:28:13,480
Speaker 1: to know what are the tips and techniques that you've

539
00:28:13,520 --> 00:28:17,840
Speaker 1: written about that really really tend to resonate the EE

540
00:28:17,880 --> 00:28:20,320
Speaker 1: over and over again from raiders.

541
00:28:20,880 --> 00:28:25,359
Speaker 2: I think most people really relate to the way that

542
00:28:25,400 --> 00:28:29,760
Speaker 2: I explained something in a very simple, accessible way, Like

543
00:28:29,760 --> 00:28:32,919
Speaker 2: I heard from so many people this weekend after I

544
00:28:32,920 --> 00:28:35,919
Speaker 2: wrote about AI writing tools, who were like, oh, like,

545
00:28:36,200 --> 00:28:40,200
Speaker 2: thank you, thank you for just like being a voice

546
00:28:40,200 --> 00:28:42,880
Speaker 2: of reason that stands outside of like the hype squad

547
00:28:42,920 --> 00:28:45,959
Speaker 2: who's just all in on AI that are either hysterical

548
00:28:45,960 --> 00:28:47,680
Speaker 2: about it because it's going to take the job of

549
00:28:47,720 --> 00:28:50,040
Speaker 2: every writer and we're going to be poor and never

550
00:28:50,120 --> 00:28:53,200
Speaker 2: work again, or that was one extreme or the other extreme,

551
00:28:53,240 --> 00:28:55,920
Speaker 2: which is like, oh my god, this revolutionary is going

552
00:28:55,960 --> 00:28:58,200
Speaker 2: to completely change all of our content programs, and it's

553
00:28:58,240 --> 00:29:00,720
Speaker 2: like none of those neither of those extra dreams are true.

554
00:29:00,840 --> 00:29:03,200
Speaker 2: And so I tried to really present what I thought

555
00:29:03,240 --> 00:29:07,160
Speaker 2: as a more realistic and moderate view of something that

556
00:29:07,520 --> 00:29:09,720
Speaker 2: is it cool. Yeah, it's like amazing, there's some really

557
00:29:09,760 --> 00:29:12,960
Speaker 2: cool things about it, but it's not gonna completely put

558
00:29:13,000 --> 00:29:15,160
Speaker 2: writers out of work. And I think it's ultimately all

559
00:29:15,160 --> 00:29:17,400
Speaker 2: about like who is holding the tool. It's not about

560
00:29:17,440 --> 00:29:20,320
Speaker 2: the tools, who is holding it. So that's the kind

561
00:29:20,360 --> 00:29:22,600
Speaker 2: of feedback that I get more than anything else, like

562
00:29:23,560 --> 00:29:26,800
Speaker 2: not just accolades, but just saying like that they finally

563
00:29:26,880 --> 00:29:31,280
Speaker 2: understand something, or that they feel empowered because I said

564
00:29:31,280 --> 00:29:34,960
Speaker 2: things in a way that just made it not dumbed

565
00:29:35,000 --> 00:29:38,480
Speaker 2: down at all, but very simple and accessible. I think

566
00:29:38,480 --> 00:29:40,920
Speaker 2: it's really hard to write about complex things in a

567
00:29:40,960 --> 00:29:43,600
Speaker 2: simple way, and I try to do that as much

568
00:29:43,640 --> 00:29:45,680
Speaker 2: as I can. I don't always succeed, but I try

569
00:29:45,680 --> 00:29:48,280
Speaker 2: to think, what do people really need to hear about?

570
00:29:48,520 --> 00:29:51,000
Speaker 2: What do they really need to know about? And I

571
00:29:51,080 --> 00:29:54,120
Speaker 2: try to think about things from the perspective of my audience,

572
00:29:54,720 --> 00:29:57,880
Speaker 2: and that seems to really resonate the most.

573
00:29:58,400 --> 00:30:01,240
Speaker 1: And for people that want to consume more of what

574
00:30:01,320 --> 00:30:04,040
Speaker 1: you are putting out into the world and what you're writing,

575
00:30:04,120 --> 00:30:05,840
Speaker 1: what's the best way for people to do that?

576
00:30:06,440 --> 00:30:10,080
Speaker 2: Oh my goodness. Or you can visit my website at

577
00:30:10,080 --> 00:30:12,440
Speaker 2: Annhanley dot com or connect with me in all the

578
00:30:12,440 --> 00:30:16,200
Speaker 2: social channels. We talked about my email newsletter that's certainly

579
00:30:16,200 --> 00:30:17,840
Speaker 2: the best way to keep in touch with me, and

580
00:30:17,840 --> 00:30:21,120
Speaker 2: that's at Annhanley dot com slash newsletter. If you want

581
00:30:21,160 --> 00:30:22,760
Speaker 2: to sign up there and check it out, And if

582
00:30:22,760 --> 00:30:26,640
Speaker 2: you do, please hit reply after you sign up and

583
00:30:27,960 --> 00:30:31,280
Speaker 2: say hello, because that's the start of a friendship.

584
00:30:32,720 --> 00:30:36,200
Speaker 1: Awesome, and it's been such a pleasure to chat to

585
00:30:36,200 --> 00:30:38,640
Speaker 1: you after being a fan of your writing for so long.

586
00:30:38,720 --> 00:30:42,200
Speaker 1: So thank you so much for sharing the past hour

587
00:30:42,320 --> 00:30:42,600
Speaker 1: with me.

588
00:30:43,160 --> 00:30:45,640
Speaker 2: Oh yeah, thank you. It's so nice to chat with you.

589
00:30:46,800 --> 00:30:49,680
Speaker 1: I hope you're feeling inspired to go out and hone

590
00:30:49,760 --> 00:30:53,240
Speaker 1: your writing skills. I wonder what piece of advice you're

591
00:30:53,240 --> 00:30:56,640
Speaker 1: going to try to apply today. For me, one of

592
00:30:56,640 --> 00:31:00,280
Speaker 1: the biggest changes I've made to my writing since Readingann's

593
00:31:00,280 --> 00:31:03,480
Speaker 1: book Everybody Writes and speaking with her is to give

594
00:31:03,520 --> 00:31:07,440
Speaker 1: myself permission to write in shorter paragraphs. And now some

595
00:31:07,520 --> 00:31:11,200
Speaker 1: of my paragraphs contain only one word. I feel like

596
00:31:11,240 --> 00:31:13,520
Speaker 1: my high school English teacher would have a heart attack

597
00:31:13,600 --> 00:31:16,600
Speaker 1: knowing that, but hey, if it makes my writing easier

598
00:31:16,640 --> 00:31:20,480
Speaker 1: to consume, than I am all for it. Thank you

599
00:31:20,520 --> 00:31:22,920
Speaker 1: for sharing part of your day with me by listening

600
00:31:22,920 --> 00:31:25,760
Speaker 1: to How I Work. If you're keen for more tips

601
00:31:25,760 --> 00:31:28,680
Speaker 1: on how to work better, connect with me via LinkedIn

602
00:31:28,920 --> 00:31:32,440
Speaker 1: or Instagram. I'm very easy to find. Just search for

603
00:31:32,560 --> 00:31:37,600
Speaker 1: Amantha Imba. How I Work was recorded on the traditional

604
00:31:37,720 --> 00:31:41,400
Speaker 1: land of the Warrangery people, part of the Cool And Nation.

605
00:31:42,240 --> 00:31:44,840
Speaker 1: I am so grateful for being able to work and

606
00:31:45,000 --> 00:31:47,520
Speaker 1: live on this beautiful land, and I want to pay

607
00:31:47,640 --> 00:31:52,120
Speaker 1: my respects to Elder's past, present and emerging. How I

608
00:31:52,200 --> 00:31:55,280
Speaker 1: Work is produced by Inventium with production support from Dead

609
00:31:55,320 --> 00:31:58,760
Speaker 1: Set Studios. The producer for this episode was Liam Riordan

610
00:31:59,080 --> 00:32:01,240
Speaker 1: and thank you to Martin, but who did the audio

611
00:32:01,280 --> 00:32:04,480
Speaker 1: mix and makes everything sound better than it would have otherwise.