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Speaker 1: It's doctor Amantha imberhere from How I Work. Last week

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Speaker 1: you might have listened to the very first episode in

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Speaker 1: a four part series I'm doing with doctor Justin Coulson,

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Speaker 1: the host of Parental Guidance, and also from the Happy

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Speaker 1: Families podcast. I am a big fan of Justin's work,

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Speaker 1: and last week we had a chat about sleep and

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Speaker 1: how you can get more of it. Today, we're going

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Speaker 1: to be delving into the elusive concept of work life

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Speaker 1: balance and how we can get better at setting clearer

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Speaker 1: boundaries and the hacks that we each use to stop

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Speaker 1: work creeping into our family lives. More and more, we're

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Speaker 1: expected to do it all, like be available for late

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Speaker 1: night conference calls for work, take our kids to all

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Speaker 1: the different sporting activities and extracurricular things that they have,

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Speaker 1: and also somehow find time for ourselves and some self care. Justin,

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Speaker 1: is this something that you struggle with? You've got like

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Speaker 1: two hundred kids or something like that at home and counting.

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Speaker 2: I know, I don't know. I don't know how we

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Speaker 2: do it all. There is so much for us to do,

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Speaker 2: and we often feel like we're running faster than we

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Speaker 2: have strength. I remember when everyone shut down because of COVID.

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Speaker 2: Some people remember it better than others because of it.

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Speaker 2: Kind of depends on where you are. But Amantha, do

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Speaker 2: you remember the things that people were saying during COVID

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Speaker 2: about how the lockdown had changed our perspective, changed our

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Speaker 2: mind about how much we try to cram into our

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Speaker 2: lives and how we balance our lives. I spoke to

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Speaker 2: so many people who said, oh, when we open up again,

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Speaker 2: life is never going to go back to normal. I'm

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Speaker 2: going to keep things quiet, I'm going to keep things connected,

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Speaker 2: we're going to stay together as a family. And it

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Speaker 2: didn't work. We opened up and within two or three

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Speaker 2: weeks everyone was like, I need to sign up for this.

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Speaker 2: We've got to do all of that, and we're trying

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Speaker 2: to get life going, and we're also trying to work

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Speaker 2: and pull it all together. There's so much going on.

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Speaker 2: I you run a really significant business consultancy, you're an author,

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Speaker 2: you've got a tremendously successful podcast, and you've also got

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Speaker 2: a gorgeous little daughter. Surely you're noticing this as well.

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Speaker 2: Do you feel stretched and pulled from pillar to posts

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Speaker 2: or is it just the dad's of six daughters.

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Speaker 1: I do feel stretched, and I will say to avoid

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Speaker 1: that feeling of stretchiness. And when I feel my stress

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Speaker 1: levels rising because I've taken on too much or I'm

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Speaker 1: trying to do too much, the word that I come

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Speaker 1: back to is no, and I have to remind myself

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Speaker 1: to say that more often. I heard this great tip

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Speaker 1: from Professor Katie Milkman when I need to read here

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Speaker 1: on how I.

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Speaker 2: Work, and I have her book on my shelf just here.

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Speaker 1: How to Change. It's such a great read. Now, something

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Speaker 1: that Katie did, and you know, as an in demand

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Speaker 1: academic author speaker, she gets a lot of requests made

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Speaker 1: on her time, she formed what she called a no club.

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Speaker 1: So particularly, I think particularly women struggle with this. The

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Speaker 1: research would suggest is women are more likely to say

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Speaker 1: yes to what are called non promotable activities, particularly in

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Speaker 1: the workplace, like things like taking minutes in a meeting

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Speaker 1: or organizing the work Christmas party, things that are like,

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Speaker 1: you know, the act of a good citizen, but are

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Speaker 1: not going to drive you forward closer to say your

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Speaker 1: your career goals. And so Katie linked up with some

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Speaker 1: other business school professors and now when she gets an

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Speaker 1: opportunity presented to her or someone's asking for her time,

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Speaker 1: and she instinctively wants to say yes because she wants

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Speaker 1: to help. She takes that to her no club who

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Speaker 1: give a more objective view on Really, Katie, should you

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Speaker 1: say no to this instead of yes? And I love

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Speaker 1: that idea of a no club.

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Speaker 2: So this wasn't something that I planned on talking about

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Speaker 2: when we initially discussed this topic. But you sharing Katie

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Speaker 2: Milkman's idea about the no club as a male, Like

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Speaker 2: you said, this may be along gender lines. I've never

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Speaker 2: really had a hard time saying no, and I think

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Speaker 2: that that is a bit of a I don't know

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Speaker 2: if it's a male privileged thing or just a privileged

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Speaker 2: thing generally, but I'm pretty comfortable with giving a good

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Speaker 2: old fashion not going to fit in the schedule. But

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Speaker 2: near Ale, who wrote that brilliant book Indistractable, he talks

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Speaker 2: about how at the beginning of the week, if you

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Speaker 2: just sit down and think about what you value the

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Speaker 2: most in terms of who do I want to be

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Speaker 2: in five years or three years or six months or

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Speaker 2: ten years, Who do I want to be as a parent,

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Speaker 2: Who do I want to be as an employee or

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Speaker 2: an employer or whatever it is, And when I'm scheduling

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Speaker 2: my activities for the week, I need to make sure

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Speaker 2: that I'm putting into my week the things that will

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Speaker 2: help me to be that in three years, five years,

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Speaker 2: ten years. That's another I think, maybe a spin on

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Speaker 2: the No Club where you can say, Okay, if I

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Speaker 2: want to be an author, or if I want to

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Speaker 2: be an entrepreneur, or if I want to just be

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Speaker 2: a damn good mum, what are the three things that

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Speaker 2: I have to put into my calendar this week so

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Speaker 2: that I'm doing that today Because if I'm not doing

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Speaker 2: it today, I'm not going to be good at it

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Speaker 2: in three years time. And for me, it's kind of

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Speaker 2: I guess a productivity hack or a time management thing.

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Speaker 2: But every single not every single week, but most weeks,

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Speaker 2: I schedule a date with my wife. We just we

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Speaker 2: have that time together. It's got to happen. Friday is

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Speaker 2: our adventure day. In addition to that, most Friday mornings,

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Speaker 2: I schedule a meeting for breakfast with a friend and

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Speaker 2: it's not really a meeting. It just goes into my

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Speaker 2: diary as a meeting because work life balance matters, and

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Speaker 2: my friendships matter, and I want to have good friendships

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Speaker 2: in three and five and ten years from now. The

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Speaker 2: only way I'll have a good friendship then is if

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Speaker 2: I build the friendship now, and if I have those

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Speaker 2: breakfasts consistently more weeks than not with a handful of

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Speaker 2: people that I really save a time with. That's what

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Speaker 2: builds that. I make sure that I build the fitness

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Speaker 2: stuff in as much as it's inconvenient, because I want

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Speaker 2: to be fit and healthy in three to five, ten years,

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Speaker 2: And I build in that super Saturday or that time

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Speaker 2: with the kids, the one on one because I want

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Speaker 2: to be a good dad in three or five or

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Speaker 2: ten years now.

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Speaker 1: I don't know about you justin but I occasionally take

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Speaker 1: issue with the idea of work life balance because it

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Speaker 1: implies in its very nature that work is bad, we

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Speaker 1: need to do less of it, and life is good

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Speaker 1: and we need to do more of it. But for

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Speaker 1: a lot of people, and I know for you and I,

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Speaker 1: we love our work. And so something I find more

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Speaker 1: useful is a strategy, and I call it doing a

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Speaker 1: values audit of your diary, where if you were to

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Speaker 1: literally like block out every single activity that you do

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Speaker 1: in your diary, from spending time with the kids to

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Speaker 1: doing a workout, at the gym or going for a

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Speaker 1: bike ride in your case, along with all the work

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Speaker 1: activities as well. If someone looked back at the last

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Speaker 1: week or the last month of your diary, would they

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Speaker 1: be able to work out what your main values are?

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Speaker 1: And I think it's an interesting question to pose. Have

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Speaker 1: you ever done anything like this?

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Speaker 2: Justin No, but I love it. So what you're saying,

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Speaker 2: if I'm understanding you correctly, is if I actually used

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Speaker 2: my diary and accounted for every minute of the day,

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Speaker 2: all those time confetti moments where I stared at Facebook

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Speaker 2: or Instagram rather than connecting with somebody versus the time

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Speaker 2: where I'm at work, at the time that I'm sleeping

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Speaker 2: and so on, will somebody see what well, somebody will

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Speaker 2: see what matters most to me. But would that be

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Speaker 2: congruent with what I say matters to me? That's what

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Speaker 2: I'm hearing you say exactly.

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Speaker 1: So, for example, I imagine there is not a parent

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Speaker 1: in the universe that would say work is more important

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Speaker 1: than my kids. But I would say, there are a

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Speaker 1: lot of parents' diaries that you could go into and

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Speaker 1: if they mapped out how every minute was accounted for,

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Speaker 1: work is creeping into a lot of times when you know, really,

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Speaker 1: if they were living a life that was congruent with

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Speaker 1: their values, they would probably say that work thing can wait.

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Speaker 1: I really want to spend some quality time with my

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Speaker 1: child or my kids right now, for example.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, I think there are a lot of

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Speaker 2: people who really love their work, and there are a

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Speaker 2: lot of people who just have a lot of work

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Speaker 2: to do and shutting off at the end of the day.

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Speaker 2: I mean, I don't in many ways, this is terrible

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Speaker 2: for me to say it, but in so many ways

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Speaker 2: I don't want to shut off because I love what

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Speaker 2: I do so much, and because of that, but because

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Speaker 2: I also value my family. I've had to create some

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Speaker 2: specific practical rules to get that work life balance. To

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Speaker 2: use the term that is a little bit clunky and ugly,

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Speaker 2: and there are some problems with it, but to get

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Speaker 2: that so, I've got a couple of rules, and I

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Speaker 2: don't know if you have any rules like this. One

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Speaker 2: of my rules is, I don't walk into the house

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Speaker 2: if I'm on the phone, so as I'm driving home

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Speaker 2: from the office and I'm heading towards my driveway if

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Speaker 2: I'm on a phone call, which happens a lot. I mean,

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Speaker 2: many of us are in this situation, even if it's

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Speaker 2: a personal call, maybe it's not even a work call.

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Speaker 2: My commitment to my family is when I walk through

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Speaker 2: the front door, they're going to get the best of me.

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Speaker 2: My face is going to light up. I'm going to

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Speaker 2: be attentive to them. I will make them feel seen,

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Speaker 2: hurt and valued. So if I'm at a phone call,

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Speaker 2: I've done this so many times, i just start doing

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Speaker 2: laps of the block, and once I've done about five

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Speaker 2: or six laps of the block, I'll actually save the

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Speaker 2: person I'm talking to. I'm on my sixth lap around

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Speaker 2: the block because I have a commitment that I won't

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Speaker 2: walk into the house when i'm on the phone. My

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Speaker 2: family needs me. I've loved talking to you, but we've

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Speaker 2: got to wrap this up. And it changes your mindset

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Speaker 2: as you walk in and you've intentionally put that phone away.

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Speaker 2: Oh my goodness, it makes such a difference. I've also

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Speaker 2: established some no work zones, so you can have no

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Speaker 2: work zones in terms of a physical location, so I

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Speaker 2: don't work at specific times and also in specific places

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Speaker 2: in my home. And the reason for that is because

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Speaker 2: I need to be with other people. There are one

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Speaker 2: or two other things that I might quickly mention, and

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Speaker 2: I'd love to hear yours. I have a commitment that

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Speaker 2: I've made to Kylie since the time we were married,

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Speaker 2: that when I walk past her, I will touch her

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Speaker 2: and she does the same for me. It's a way

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Speaker 2: of saying, even if we've got heaps going on, the

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Speaker 2: person standing next to me in the mirror brushing her

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Speaker 2: teeth is a person with hopes and dreams and values

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Speaker 2: and wishes and desires. And just by reaching out and

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Speaker 2: acknowledging the person by touching them, squeezing the elbow, pinching

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Speaker 2: their bum, giving them a hug, whatever it might be,

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Speaker 2: it says, hey, I see you. You matter to me.

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Speaker 2: I'm noticing even though we're busy. And my last one

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Speaker 2: for this work life balance thing that I'm going to

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Speaker 2: mention is the importance of when you take and you'll leave,

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Speaker 2: setting up your auto responder and making sure the email

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Speaker 2: hangs in cyberspace and doesn't download and sit in the inbox,

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Speaker 2: because I love my work and I want to know

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Speaker 2: what's going on, and I want to respond to people

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Speaker 2: and get stuff done, and I don't want to come

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Speaker 2: home to three hundred emails, and so that's the only

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Speaker 2: way I've been able to do it. I've actually had

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Speaker 2: team members change my passwords so that I can't access

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Speaker 2: my social media and my email, so that I really

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Speaker 2: do zone out and pay attention to my family.

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Speaker 1: I love that strategy. I've heard that password changing one

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Speaker 1: from Brian Scodemore, who is the co founder of one

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Speaker 1: eight hundred Got Junk in America, and funnily enough, I'm

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Speaker 1: about to take a little mini break of five days,

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Speaker 1: and it's reminded me I need to do something, so

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Speaker 1: I'm going to keep some balance and not be tempted

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Speaker 1: to hop into my email for the next five days.

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Speaker 1: Justin I'm very inspired by the things that you do

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Speaker 1: at home, particularly I like the one about not walking

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Speaker 1: into the home environment with your phone. I think this

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Speaker 1: is applicable no matter who you are, if there's other

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Speaker 1: people in your house, I mean, even if it's just

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Speaker 1: your partner, or if you don't have kids and it's

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Speaker 1: just your flatmates that are there. I think it's really

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Speaker 1: nice that we like that you have a strategy that

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Speaker 1: reminds you to put human connection first as opposed to

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Speaker 1: what is happening on a digital device.

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Speaker 2: I wanted to ask you really quickly, just one question,

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Speaker 2: and I know we're out of time, but just briefly,

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Speaker 2: do you have like a wrap up ritual, a way

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Speaker 2: to step away from the office and just be done

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Speaker 2: with it? Or are you a bit like me where

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Speaker 2: you really have to compel yourself to not look at

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Speaker 2: the devices even when you get home.

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Speaker 1: I do struggle. One ritual that does work for me

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Speaker 1: that I try to use more often than not is

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Speaker 1: we call it a shutdown ritual at invent Here, my consultancy,

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Speaker 1: and it involves writing two simple sentences at the end

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Speaker 1: of the work day to kind of, you know, in

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Speaker 1: the same way that people used to shut down their computer,

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Speaker 1: although no one does that now. It's kind of shutting

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Speaker 1: down your work for the day. So the two things are,

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Speaker 1: I write the sentence today I made progress on dot

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Speaker 1: dot dot. This works whether you are employed in a job,

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Speaker 1: or whether you're a full time parent or a full

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Speaker 1: time student, whatever, today I made progress on. And this

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Speaker 1: is reminding yourself what is something that you made meaningful

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Speaker 1: progress towards. There's so much great research, primarily from PARISA

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Speaker 1: professor Theresa A. Marble from Harvard that if we make

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Speaker 1: progress towards things that matter to us. It is a

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Speaker 1: massive driver of engagement and motivation. And then the second

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Speaker 1: thing is I write down tomorrow will be a great

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Speaker 1: day if I focus on X, and I think about

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Speaker 1: what is the most important thing that I want to

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Speaker 1: do tomorrow that will make it a great day. It

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Speaker 1: might be a work thing, it might be related to

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Speaker 1: my daughter Frankie, or it might be related to something

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Speaker 1: completely different that matters to me.

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Speaker 2: So two quick things off the back of that. First

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Speaker 2: of all, I had no idea it was a marble a.

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Speaker 2: I've been saying it's Teresa Amabil for like the last

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Speaker 2: fifteen years. But secondly, I'm hearing you say that in

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Speaker 2: a work context and I love it, But I also

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Speaker 2: think that it works in a family and home context.

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Speaker 2: Imagine if at about five o'clock or four o'clock, or

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Speaker 2: at some point in the afternoon, a mum dad grabs

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Speaker 2: out the pen and says, today it was a great

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Speaker 2: day because and they're essentially signing off for the day. Now,

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Speaker 2: all I've got to do is get dinner done and

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Speaker 2: we're good, or maybe they do it after dinner, and

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Speaker 2: then they say, and tomorrow is going to be a

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Speaker 2: great day because and they get those priorities centered. I

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Speaker 2: don't think that it's just a workplace thing. I love

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Speaker 2: that idea, and I get the sense that it helps

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Speaker 2: us to recognize that we can be productive and have

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Speaker 2: a really nice balance in our lives.

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Speaker 1: I think it absolutely does so many applications of it,

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Speaker 1: and I think for a lot of the ideas that

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Speaker 1: we've discussed, and hopefully they will bring a better balance

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Speaker 1: of work and life, or a better mix of the

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Speaker 1: two into people's lives. Today's episode of How I Work

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Speaker 1: was produced by iHeartRadio. If you would like more tips

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Speaker 1: on how to live and work better, head to Amantha

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Speaker 1: dot substack dot com to sign up for weekly and

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