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Speaker 1: The power comes when you get to roll up those

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Speaker 1: numbers and see in black and white, like how much

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Speaker 1: time did I really spend in the last quarter doing email?

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Speaker 2: And you, you know, you got.

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Speaker 1: To look yourself in the mirror at that point and say,

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Speaker 1: ten years from now, do I want to be the

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Speaker 1: person who spent one thousand hours doing email?

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Speaker 3: Welcome to How I Work, a show about the tactics,

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Speaker 3: hacks and rituals used by the world's most successful people

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Speaker 3: to get so much out of their day. I'm your host,

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Speaker 3: doctor Amantha Imba. I'm an organizational psychologist, the founder of

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Speaker 3: innovation consultancy Inventium, and I'm obsessed with finding ways to

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Speaker 3: optimize my work day. Now, before we get into today's interview,

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Speaker 3: I wanted to mention something that my company, Inventium, has

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Speaker 3: done every year for the last nine years, and that

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Speaker 3: is create Australia's Most Innovative Companies List in partnership with

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Speaker 3: the Australian Financial Review. And the good news for you

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Speaker 3: if you are listening and working at a company that

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Speaker 3: you think is quite innovative, is that we have just

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Speaker 3: opened a call for entries. So if you work in

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Speaker 3: an organization that has thirty or more employees and would

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Speaker 3: consider your company pretty innovative. Why not nominate? Nomination is free.

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Speaker 3: It's completely free to nominate and it will take you

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Speaker 3: only a couple of minutes to do so. And by

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Speaker 3: doing so, you give your company the chance to be

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Speaker 3: recognized as one of Australia and New Zealand's most Innovative

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Speaker 3: companies and the list will be published on October nine

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Speaker 3: in the Australian Financial Review. So to nominate your company,

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Speaker 3: simply go to most Innovative dot com dot au. That's

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Speaker 3: most innovative dot com dot au. Okay, On to today's show.

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Speaker 3: My guest today I'm very excited to announce is Dan Heath.

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Speaker 3: Dan is the co author, along with his other Chip,

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Speaker 3: of four New York Times best sellers, including Decisive Switch,

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Speaker 3: Made to Stick and.

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Speaker 4: The Power of Moments.

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Speaker 3: The Heath Brothers' books have sold over three million copies

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Speaker 3: worldwide and been translated into thirty three languages. Dan is

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Speaker 3: also a Senior Fellow at Duke University's Case Center, which

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Speaker 3: supports social entrepreneurs. So I have been trying to get

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Speaker 3: down on the show for probably about a year, and

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Speaker 3: how this interview actually came about? And I got him

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Speaker 3: on the show is that we actually got connected via

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Speaker 3: a story something that happened to me at Inventium, which

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Speaker 3: he got in contact with me about, which he writes

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Speaker 3: about in his book that has just come out called Upstream,

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Speaker 3: which is all about the importance of trying to solve

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Speaker 3: problems before they happen and why this is quite hard

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Speaker 3: to do. So I got an early copy of Upstream,

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Speaker 3: devoured it and absolutely loved it. And I was so

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Speaker 3: excited for this chat with Dan, having been a fan

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Speaker 3: of his work, and I mean, his work has had

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Speaker 3: such a big impact on my life for the last

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Speaker 3: few years, so I think you'll love this chat with Dan.

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Speaker 3: We talk about some of the strategies in his new book,

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Speaker 3: and we talk about his experience with writing and overcoming procrastination,

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Speaker 3: and right at the end, we talk about the strategies

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Speaker 3: that Dan has written about that have actually had the

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Speaker 3: biggest impact on his own life. So on that note,

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Speaker 3: let's go to Dan to hear about how he works. Dan,

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Speaker 3: Welcome to the show.

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Speaker 1: Hey, thanks so much, thanks for having me on.

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Speaker 3: I must say I feel quite starstruck talking to you

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Speaker 3: because I've read all of your books, and I must

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Speaker 3: say decisive and the Power of Moments would make it

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Speaker 3: into my top ten business books list of all time.

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Speaker 3: So you've just had an enormously huge impact on me,

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Speaker 3: I think, so thank you so much.

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Speaker 2: I appreciate that.

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Speaker 3: And I've just finished reading Upstream, which is obviously your

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Speaker 3: latest book, and I think before we delve into that,

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Speaker 3: it'd be great to just hear from you.

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Speaker 4: What's the premise behind Upstream.

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Speaker 1: The premise of Upstream is very simple. Actually, it's the

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Speaker 1: realization that so many of us in life get caught

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Speaker 1: in this cycle of reaction. You know, we're constantly reacting

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Speaker 1: to problems and putting out fires and responding to emergencies,

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Speaker 1: and we can actually live a long time that way.

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Speaker 1: It becomes an almost self perpetuating cycle because the energy

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Speaker 1: that we need to put out all these fires is

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Speaker 1: precisely the energy that we would have needed to pause

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Speaker 1: and solve some of these at the systems level. And

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Speaker 1: so Upstream is about the idea, can we learn to

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Speaker 1: escape this cycle of reaction and began to stop problems

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Speaker 1: before they happen? And that's what I mean by that

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Speaker 1: word upstream. That's so often we're downstream and reaction mode

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Speaker 1: when we have the ability if we seize it, to

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Speaker 1: move upstream and prevent things.

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Speaker 3: I must say it's already started influencing my thinking about

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Speaker 3: just how I think about.

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Speaker 4: Problems at work.

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Speaker 3: And I know, like how we got connected was actually

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Speaker 3: through the book. And you use an example of how

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Speaker 3: I tried to solve a problem at my work, probably

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Speaker 3: going back about five years ago, in relation to what

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Speaker 3: you call the Cobbra effects. So at Inventium, the innovation

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Speaker 3: consultancy that I founded quite a few years ago, now,

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Speaker 3: we were in the process of moving office, and I

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Speaker 3: wanted to create this beautiful open plan environment. We basically

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Speaker 3: got this warehouse shell, so it was ours to do.

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Speaker 4: What we want with the design.

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Speaker 3: And you know, it's this beautiful kind of four meter

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Speaker 3: twelve foot ceilings, lots of natural light. We got these

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Speaker 3: two big custom made wooden tables where we all sit around.

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Speaker 3: It's all very communal, and I thought, won't that be

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Speaker 3: great for collaboration and you know, working together, because after all,

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Speaker 3: we're an innovation agency, so.

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Speaker 4: That's kind of what we do.

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Speaker 3: And it turned out to be an absolutely terrible decision,

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Speaker 3: like the open plan office is impossible to get any

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Speaker 3: work done.

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Speaker 4: And then funnily enough, in I think I was.

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Speaker 3: In twenty eighteen, some researchers from Harvard published some research

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Speaker 3: which which I came across, which talked about how face

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Speaker 3: to face collaboration actually decreases quite substantially by about seventy

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Speaker 3: something percent in open plan environments, yet digital communications, so

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Speaker 3: emails and instant messenger, increases by about the same amount,

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Speaker 3: and I kind of thought, ah, yes, that is exactly

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Speaker 3: what has happened here. And then as a result, the

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Speaker 3: problem that we now have is that most days, most

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Speaker 3: people choose to work from anywhere but the office when

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Speaker 3: trying to do deep focused work. So I'm curious, like

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Speaker 3: what your reaction was where when you came across this

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Speaker 3: story of mine, and we can use that to, I guess,

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Speaker 3: improve our ability to go upstream.

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Speaker 1: Well, the reason I was so struck by your story

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Speaker 1: and included it in the book is because it kind

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Speaker 1: of relates to one of my own greatest surprises in

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Speaker 1: researching this book. And I'll admit when I first started

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Speaker 1: researching upstream, my mental model was I'm going to go

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Speaker 1: out and find people who are really good at preventing problems,

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Speaker 1: and I'm going to shine a spotlight on their work.

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Speaker 1: And my mental model was, Hey, once people see that

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Speaker 1: this is possible, we're all going to say, you know,

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Speaker 1: we're idiots to be stuck in reaction mode all the time.

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Speaker 1: Of course we should be doing this. Look at how

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Speaker 1: easy it is. And when I got into the research,

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Speaker 1: what surprised me was, Yes, there were people who were succeeding.

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Speaker 1: I talk about a lot of them in the book,

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Speaker 1: but there were also a lot of people that were

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Speaker 1: trying and failing to prevent problems. And so as I

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Speaker 1: got deeper, I came to respect that why. While I

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Speaker 1: still remain a firm advocate that we need to shift

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Speaker 1: our attention upstream, it's incredibly difficult for a variety of

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Speaker 1: reasons that I talk about in the book and that

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Speaker 1: we can talk about here live. It's hard to do

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Speaker 1: systems thinking. It's hard to get ahead of problems and

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Speaker 1: to reverse engineer them. And in your situation, it's a

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Speaker 1: classic example where your goal is to do something upstream.

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Speaker 1: You want to increase collaboration among your staffers, and so

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Speaker 1: you're thinking, well, how do I do that? How do

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Speaker 1: I design an environment where people will talk more? And

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Speaker 1: you came to the obvious conclusion, Well, if we have

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Speaker 1: an open office floor plan, people will be closer together,

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Speaker 1: there'll be no barriers with them, it won't be a

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Speaker 1: nineteen fifty style cubicle environment. Of course, they'll talk more

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Speaker 1: and a lot of other fortune. Five hundred companies had

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Speaker 1: exactly the same instinct that you did, and it all

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Speaker 1: made perfect sense until you get in that environment and

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Speaker 1: you realize, oh gosh, there's all these counter dynamics where

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Speaker 1: it's just like being on an airplane. It's not that

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Speaker 1: going on an airplane means we're more likely to talk

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Speaker 1: to the people next to us.

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Speaker 2: It's probably the opposite.

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Speaker 1: That going on an airplane and being trapped against people

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Speaker 1: that close to us in physical proximity makes us want

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Speaker 1: to put on our headphones or give them a really

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Speaker 1: impassive look that deters them from trying to talk to us.

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Speaker 1: And so that to me is a kind of system

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Speaker 1: a symbol rather of what's complicated about systems thinking and

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Speaker 1: why it can be so difficult to accomplish our good intentions.

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Speaker 1: And so I came to appreciate the fact that while

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Speaker 1: good intentions are necessary and why we need this upstream instinct,

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Speaker 1: we also need to kind of be aware what we're

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Speaker 1: up against. And I think in your situation and a

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Speaker 1: lot of others, maybe one.

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Speaker 2: Possible moral of the story is that.

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Speaker 1: Our intuition is never going to be good enough to

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Speaker 1: help us guess what the right answer is, matter how

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Speaker 1: obvious it seems. And in your shoes, I would have

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Speaker 1: thought exactly the same thing if I had to put

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Speaker 1: down money on a study. Will an open office floor

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Speaker 1: plan increase communication? Of course, I'm betting on that. I mean,

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Speaker 1: it's just basic sociology. But in this case, there were

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Speaker 1: dynamics we couldn't foresee, and maybe the only way to

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Speaker 1: have foreseen them was to figure out some way to

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Speaker 1: experiment with it in advance. So I'm curious whether whether

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Speaker 1: you take the same moral away or whether you think

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Speaker 1: about it differently.

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Speaker 4: Oh, one hundred percent. And the irony is, we experiment.

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Speaker 3: On everything, and we teach experimentation to our clients. It's

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Speaker 3: such a fundamental part of what we do and how

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Speaker 3: we think. And it's interesting. I've recently just launched this

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Speaker 3: year long project called My Year of Better, which is basically,

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Speaker 3: every week I'm going to try a different experiment on

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Speaker 3: some strategy that is meant to make life better.

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Speaker 4: I'm an experimentation is so.

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Speaker 3: Fundamental to what we do, but gosh, this was this

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Speaker 3: was five years ago, and experimentation was probably slightly less.

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Speaker 4: A focus of what we do.

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Speaker 3: So I mean now one hundred percent would move straight

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Speaker 3: to experimentation. Something that always strikes me about your books,

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Speaker 3: and I was particularly interested in this decision for Upstream

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Speaker 3: is the language that you use and the labels that

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Speaker 3: you give to things. I find it's always so precise

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Speaker 3: and unique and sticky, which is kind of not surprising

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Speaker 3: given that you wrote the book on stickiness Made to Stick.

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Speaker 4: And I want to know in the case.

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Speaker 3: Of upstream, because for me, and I think for most

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Speaker 3: people reading it, like when you get into it, you

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Speaker 3: kind of go, of course, it has to be called upstream,

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Speaker 3: But I think when you start researching that concept, it's

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Speaker 3: not necessarily the obvious title, and you talk about how

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Speaker 3: you know you deliberately didn't call it something around prevention

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Speaker 3: or proactivity, And I want to know, like, what's your

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Speaker 3: process in thinking of like the firstly, the title of

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Speaker 3: a book. I'm always so curious about that, and I

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Speaker 3: think that the titles of all your books are just brilliant,

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Speaker 3: But also then the labels that you give to things

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Speaker 3: within the book. So I'd love to know a bit

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Speaker 3: more about your process and perhaps for upstream, how did

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Speaker 3: you come to arriving at that for the title?

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Speaker 2: Yeah, good question. Let me take that in two parts.

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Speaker 1: I'm realizing even as we're talking, I've been throwing around

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Speaker 1: this word upstream left and right, and I should probably

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Speaker 1: give people some context for what is this word and

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Speaker 1: where did it come from? And the origin is from

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Speaker 1: a parable that's become well known in public health. It's

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Speaker 1: originally attributed to a sociologist named Irving Zola, and it

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Speaker 1: goes like this. So you and a friend are having

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Speaker 1: a picnic by the side of a river, and just

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Speaker 1: as you've laid out your food and you're getting comfortable,

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Speaker 1: you hear a shout behind you from the river and

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Speaker 1: you look back and there's a child and the river drowning,

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Speaker 1: I mean, thrashing about, and so you and your friend

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Speaker 1: just instinctively dive in, grab the child, bring them to shore,

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Speaker 1: and just as you're adrenaline levels are starting to subside,

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Speaker 1: you hear another shout and you look back and there's

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Speaker 1: another child in the river, So you dive back in

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Speaker 1: save that child, and no sooner have you gotten them

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Speaker 1: to the shore, that you hear two more shouts there

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Speaker 1: are two children on the river now, And so begins

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Speaker 1: a kind of revolving door of life saving. And you're

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Speaker 1: gradually getting weary and you're not sure you can keep

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Speaker 1: up with the demand. And then you notice your friends

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Speaker 1: swimming towards shore and stepping out as if to leave

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Speaker 1: you alone, and you say, hey, where are you going.

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Speaker 1: I can't do this alone. All these kids are drowning.

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Speaker 1: And your friend says, well, I'm going to go upstream

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Speaker 1: and tackle the guy that's thrown all these kids in

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Speaker 1: the river.

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Speaker 2: And that's kind of the.

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Speaker 1: Perfect symbol of what this book is about. That we

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Speaker 1: come to accept our downstream position. We take it for

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Speaker 1: granted that our job is to keep fishing drowning kids

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Speaker 1: out of the river, and we never make the space

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Speaker 1: or reach the conclusion that we could have prevented that

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Speaker 1: from happening. Now to your question about the terminology, I

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Speaker 1: will admit, as an author, you know, titling a book

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Speaker 1: something like Upstream, which ninety nine out of one hundred

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Speaker 1: people couldn't define other than in the kind of literal

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Speaker 1: sense of it. You know, my publisher was worried some

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Speaker 1: people would think this was a phishing book or something.

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Speaker 1: It's terrifying, you know, to name something upstream, but it

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Speaker 1: was so central to the book that I thought it

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Speaker 1: was worth the gamble, honestly. And the reason why I

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Speaker 1: chose Upstream over something like prevention because in many ways,

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Speaker 1: this is a book about prevention. In a way, I'm

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Speaker 1: trying to kind of sex up the very idea of prevention,

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Speaker 1: which which has these kind of worrying, nannyish overtones to

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Speaker 1: it that I think are completely wrong. But one reason

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Speaker 1: I appreciated Upstream as distinct from something like being proactive

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Speaker 1: or being preventive is because of the stream metaphor. And

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Speaker 1: what I like about it is the way that it

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Speaker 1: suggests to us us that upstream is a direction. You know,

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Speaker 1: in the parable there are two locations, there's downstream and

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Speaker 1: there's upstream. But in the book, what I explain is

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Speaker 1: is upstream is actually just a never ending spectrum. And

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Speaker 1: I give an example of a specific problem. My parents

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Speaker 1: had their home broken in two years ago, and I.

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Speaker 2: Talk about how.

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Speaker 1: Could you could have prevented that break in on radically

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Speaker 1: different time scales, you know, from seconds before if there

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Speaker 1: had been a piercing loud alarm that would have triggered

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Speaker 1: when the burglars kicked down the door, maybe that would

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Speaker 1: have prevented it all the way through hours, through days,

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Speaker 1: through months, through years, even decades before. I talk about

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Speaker 1: the research of this guy named Richard Trimblay who suggests

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Speaker 1: that the best time to prevent crime is by intervening

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Speaker 1: with the pregnant mothers who are carrying the future quote

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Speaker 1: unquote criminals. And what he means is that many of

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Speaker 1: the things that that especially high risk mothers have to

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Speaker 1: contend with, poor environmental conditions, poor nutrition, damaging relationships, depression,

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Speaker 1: and more, many of those things which are associated with

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Speaker 1: the aggressive instincts of their children can be changed. That

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Speaker 1: you can actually nurture high risk pregnant women in a

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Speaker 1: way that twenty years later might result in their child

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Speaker 1: going to college rather than breaking into someone's house. And

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Speaker 1: so I love that that kind of stretching of our

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Speaker 1: minds that comes with that mental model, that it's not

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Speaker 1: a question of you know, one or two downstream or upstream,

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Speaker 1: it's a question of how far upstream can we go

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Speaker 1: and should we go?

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Speaker 2: In preventing problems.

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Speaker 3: I think it like, I mean, it works perfectly as

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Speaker 3: the title. But that's interesting hearing you talk about how

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Speaker 3: the publishers thought it was a risk, which I can

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Speaker 3: understand that as well well.

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Speaker 2: In now, if it's sold eight copies, will know it.

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Speaker 4: Was the wrong it was right.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, I want to know because writing a book for you,

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Speaker 3: I've heard you talk about it being about a three

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Speaker 3: year process. I guess from inception of the idea, research, writing,

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Speaker 3: and then all that comes with publicity. So that's a

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Speaker 3: long time to be sitting with an idea like upstream.

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Speaker 3: And you know, I imagine you know when you're writing a

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Speaker 3: book like this, it's always front of mine, probably with

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Speaker 3: your life. And I want to know what are some

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Speaker 3: of the most significant changes or impactful changes, let's say

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Speaker 3: that you've made to your own life to focus more

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Speaker 3: on the upstream.

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Speaker 1: There's kind of two levels. Well, at the trivial level,

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Speaker 1: it's made me much more cognizant of recurring irritance. So

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Speaker 1: I'll tell you one that literally just occurred to me

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Speaker 1: this morning. So I woke up at six fifteen in

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Speaker 1: the morning. I have a sixteen month old who usually

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Speaker 1: is the alarm clock.

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Speaker 2: In the family.

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Speaker 1: And today it was kind of my turn to get

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Speaker 1: up and get her. And so I'm waking up. It's

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Speaker 1: in the dark, and I'm trying to get my clothes on,

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Speaker 1: and one thing that happens to me all the time

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Speaker 1: I'm getting up, I'm trying to put on my clothes

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Speaker 1: in the dark so I don't wake up my wife.

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Speaker 1: And how do I put my shirt on?

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Speaker 2: You know? Is it inside out? Is it right side out?

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Speaker 1: And you've got to get the front from the back.

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Speaker 1: But I can't see the tag in the dark. I

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Speaker 1: can't see, you know, the letters on the front of

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Speaker 1: the shirt in the dark, and so I'm just kind

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Speaker 1: of taking a stab. And for some reason, my experience

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Speaker 1: is that virtually nine times out of ten I guess wrong.

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Speaker 1: And then I'm kind of irritated because maybe you wake

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Speaker 1: up happier in the morning than I do. But I'm

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Speaker 1: already irritable, and then I get my shirt on backwards

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Speaker 1: and I feel like a chump.

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Speaker 2: And so I was.

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Speaker 1: Thinking, this is exactly the kind of thing that you

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Speaker 1: just sort of live with, that you don't.

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Speaker 2: Have to live with.

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Speaker 1: And so I've hatched this idea now where every night

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Speaker 1: I'm going to lay my shirt down in the same way,

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Speaker 1: so that in the morning, when I have to do

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Speaker 1: this automatically in the dark, I'll know exactly what orientation

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Speaker 1: it's at. And you know, it's not like I'm going

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Speaker 1: to win a Nobel Prize for that, for that dramatic insight,

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Speaker 1: but it's an example of how how downstream reaction can

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Speaker 1: become habitual, even even when it's at a recurring disadvantage

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Speaker 1: to us. Now at the at the broader level, I

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Speaker 1: think what it's made me think about is my priorities

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Speaker 1: in life and how to ensure that the structure of

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Speaker 1: my days and the way I spend my time is

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Speaker 1: aligned with those, which, of course is just a classic difficulty,

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Speaker 1: especially for your you know, small business listeners or entrepreneurial

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Speaker 1: listeners trying to you know, to go back to that

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Speaker 1: classic two by two, how to make sure you don't

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Speaker 1: collect the important but not urgent things in your life,

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Speaker 1: which I'm sure you've talked about many times on the show.

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Speaker 1: And so I've begun to become relentless about time tracking,

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Speaker 1: which is not natural to me. I'm not kind of

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Speaker 1: a you know, genetically organized person, so it took some

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Speaker 1: growing pains to get into the habit of tracking my time,

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Speaker 1: and then about once every quarter, I just look BOK

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Speaker 1: and I just have broad categories. You know, how much

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Speaker 1: time did I spend writing, how much time did I

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Speaker 1: spend speaking or teaching? How much time did I spend

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Speaker 1: doing email? And kind of the big buckets, at least

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Speaker 1: for me, of ways I spend my time. And then

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Speaker 1: I start to try to move those numbers. And for me,

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Speaker 1: I know, what makes me happy and what makes me

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Speaker 1: satisfied is to spend as much time as I can

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Speaker 1: speaking and writing, actually in reverse order, writing first and

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Speaker 1: speaking second, and everything else in a way is to

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Speaker 1: be minimized. I mean, there's a certain amount of email

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Speaker 1: that I have to do just to continue relationships, but

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Speaker 1: I don't want to spend a lot of time doing email.

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Speaker 1: And there's a lot of other commitments, you know, things

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Speaker 1: I said yes to that I often end up regretting

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Speaker 1: saying yes to. And and there's something about looking at

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Speaker 1: the numbers, uh and seeing that you can move the

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Speaker 1: numbers in your own time expenditures. It's very motivating to

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Speaker 1: me in a way I wouldn't have guessed as a

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Speaker 1: non organized, non numbers focused person. And so That's an

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Speaker 1: example of where I'm trying to use kind of the

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Speaker 1: technology of personal productivity to carve out space for the

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Speaker 1: things that are really important.

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Speaker 4: I love that. Yeah.

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Speaker 3: I had Laura Vandicam on the show who I feel

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Speaker 3: like it's kind of the queen of time tracking quite

399
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Speaker 3: a while ago, and I'm wondering what's like to get

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Speaker 3: granular about it. What's your process for time tracking and

401
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Speaker 3: using software or using an Excel spreadsheet?

402
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Speaker 4: What is that? What does that look like?

403
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Speaker 2: I do?

404
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Speaker 1: I use an app called Toggle. I'm just going to

405
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Speaker 1: be the endorser for Toggle, although I'm not a very

406
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Speaker 1: good endorser because I use the Freebee version of the system.

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Speaker 1: But I suspect there's you know, half a dozen others

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Speaker 1: that do the same thing, And it's just the kind

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Speaker 1: of thing where you go and you set up your

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Speaker 1: categories and then when you start something like if I

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Speaker 1: start a writing shift in the morning, I just have

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Speaker 1: to go and kind of click a button. It's super easy,

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Speaker 1: but the payoff comes if you're if you're relentless about

414
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Speaker 1: doing it. The power comes when you get to roll

415
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Speaker 1: up those numb and see in black and white, like

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Speaker 1: how much time did I really spend in the last

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Speaker 1: quarter doing email, and you you know, you got to

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Speaker 1: look yourself in the mirror at that point and say,

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Speaker 1: ten years from now, do I want to be the

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Speaker 1: person who spent one thousand hours doing email? And then

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Speaker 1: that opens the door to change.

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Speaker 3: That's awesome, and I like that distinction between the two

423
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Speaker 3: types of upstream thinking that you've applied in your life.

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Speaker 3: I remember reading in the book the story about how

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Speaker 3: you bought a second computer charger, and I was wondering

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Speaker 3: if you could talk about that, And also I was

427
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Speaker 3: curious because that then led to you talking about how

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Speaker 3: you do a lot of your best work in coffee shops.

429
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Speaker 3: So perhaps could you explain what happened with just that

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Speaker 3: very simple upstream solution there.

431
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Speaker 1: Yeah, of course, this is another from the category of

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Speaker 1: recurring irritants that we just for some reason in your

433
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Speaker 1: So I have a proper office with a proper desk,

434
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Speaker 1: but for whatever reason, I do my best writing in

435
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Speaker 1: coffee shops and that's always has been the case. And

436
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Speaker 1: I have my regular routines. I try to sit in

437
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Speaker 1: the same table and I put my headphones on, and

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Speaker 1: that's just kind of where what works for me.

439
00:23:08,280 --> 00:23:09,200
Speaker 2: But as part of that.

440
00:23:09,640 --> 00:23:12,480
Speaker 1: You know, I'm lugging my laptop around, and so every

441
00:23:12,520 --> 00:23:14,840
Speaker 1: time I go to the coffee shop, you know, I

442
00:23:14,880 --> 00:23:17,400
Speaker 1: got to fish my power cord out of the bag,

443
00:23:17,440 --> 00:23:19,800
Speaker 1: plug it into the wall, finish my shift, and then

444
00:23:19,840 --> 00:23:21,520
Speaker 1: I come back to my office to do email or

445
00:23:21,560 --> 00:23:23,800
Speaker 1: calls or whatever, and then I got to fish the

446
00:23:23,800 --> 00:23:24,919
Speaker 1: power cord out of the bag.

447
00:23:24,800 --> 00:23:26,040
Speaker 2: Again and plug it into the wall.

448
00:23:26,080 --> 00:23:28,240
Speaker 1: And I've got one hundred cords going from my desk,

449
00:23:28,280 --> 00:23:29,920
Speaker 1: so it's always just a little bit of a nuisance.

450
00:23:29,920 --> 00:23:33,200
Speaker 1: And this just seemed like that's the way reality has

451
00:23:33,240 --> 00:23:35,199
Speaker 1: to be. You've got to constantly be doing this with

452
00:23:35,240 --> 00:23:38,520
Speaker 1: your power cord. And then, I'm embarrassed to say it

453
00:23:38,560 --> 00:23:41,080
Speaker 1: took being in the process of writing a book called

454
00:23:41,160 --> 00:23:45,359
Speaker 1: Upstream to make me think, h what if? What if

455
00:23:45,800 --> 00:23:48,000
Speaker 1: I lived in a world where I had two power cords?

456
00:23:48,520 --> 00:23:52,080
Speaker 1: And so I know you're all astonished by my genius,

457
00:23:52,080 --> 00:23:54,720
Speaker 1: but I bought a second power cord and I fixed

458
00:23:54,760 --> 00:23:57,040
Speaker 1: one of them permanently to my desk. So now it's

459
00:23:57,080 --> 00:23:59,240
Speaker 1: just a trivial matter of setting my laptop in and

460
00:23:59,280 --> 00:24:01,440
Speaker 1: I move it quarter of an inch to plug it in,

461
00:24:01,760 --> 00:24:06,280
Speaker 1: and another one lives always in my laptop bag, and

462
00:24:06,680 --> 00:24:10,280
Speaker 1: so again, you know, no great insight, there no great

463
00:24:10,359 --> 00:24:12,800
Speaker 1: need for creativity. It was just kind of a flash

464
00:24:12,800 --> 00:24:16,600
Speaker 1: of recognition. And in the book I talk about the

465
00:24:16,640 --> 00:24:20,760
Speaker 1: force that explains why this is so uncommon. You know,

466
00:24:20,800 --> 00:24:24,120
Speaker 1: why did it take me writing a book about prevention

467
00:24:24,280 --> 00:24:26,840
Speaker 1: to even think about this? And it has to do

468
00:24:26,880 --> 00:24:30,200
Speaker 1: with a force called tunneling. And tunneling is a word

469
00:24:31,240 --> 00:24:33,520
Speaker 1: that comes from a book called Scarcity written by El

470
00:24:33,600 --> 00:24:37,159
Speaker 1: Dar Shafir and Syndel Mullan Nathan. And what they mean

471
00:24:37,240 --> 00:24:40,800
Speaker 1: by tunneling is they say, when we're juggling a lot

472
00:24:40,800 --> 00:24:44,480
Speaker 1: of problems in life, at a certain point, we give

473
00:24:44,600 --> 00:24:47,080
Speaker 1: up trying to solve them all and we shift our

474
00:24:47,080 --> 00:24:51,080
Speaker 1: mental model into what's effectively tunnel vision. I mean, just

475
00:24:51,160 --> 00:24:53,359
Speaker 1: call up that visual image in your mind. You're in

476
00:24:53,600 --> 00:24:57,600
Speaker 1: a tunnel. You're just trying to knock things down one

477
00:24:57,640 --> 00:25:00,280
Speaker 1: at a time. You know, in a tunnel, the only

478
00:25:00,320 --> 00:25:02,560
Speaker 1: way you can go is backward and forward, and for

479
00:25:02,640 --> 00:25:04,879
Speaker 1: most of us, forward is the only direction. And so

480
00:25:04,920 --> 00:25:09,359
Speaker 1: what that means is I've got to constantly be parrying

481
00:25:09,720 --> 00:25:12,200
Speaker 1: the problems that I'm dealing with. I'm going to work

482
00:25:12,240 --> 00:25:16,240
Speaker 1: around to get to the next one, and tunneling becomes

483
00:25:16,720 --> 00:25:21,760
Speaker 1: one of these self reinforcing habits because when you're in

484
00:25:21,760 --> 00:25:23,960
Speaker 1: a tunnel and you're used to tunneling and only question

485
00:25:24,040 --> 00:25:25,680
Speaker 1: is how far forward can you get in a day,

486
00:25:25,960 --> 00:25:29,119
Speaker 1: you stop asking, Hey, am I going the right direction

487
00:25:29,280 --> 00:25:32,399
Speaker 1: at all? Or is there a better tunnel that I

488
00:25:32,400 --> 00:25:34,080
Speaker 1: could put myself in? Or is there a way I

489
00:25:34,119 --> 00:25:35,879
Speaker 1: can step out of this tunnel for an hour a

490
00:25:35,960 --> 00:25:40,720
Speaker 1: day and consider some of my behaviors. And so tunneling

491
00:25:40,800 --> 00:25:43,320
Speaker 1: is one of the villains, if you will, in the

492
00:25:43,320 --> 00:25:47,520
Speaker 1: book that helps to explain why it's so uncommon or

493
00:25:47,600 --> 00:25:49,639
Speaker 1: unnatural to shift into upstream thinking.

494
00:25:50,359 --> 00:25:55,800
Speaker 3: It's really interesting since reading the book, I've actually developed

495
00:25:55,920 --> 00:25:59,760
Speaker 3: a list on my to do list software of things

496
00:25:59,840 --> 00:26:04,200
Speaker 3: that I am doing repetitively in terms of every week,

497
00:26:04,720 --> 00:26:09,119
Speaker 3: but that I find either mine normally boring or irritating,

498
00:26:09,200 --> 00:26:11,679
Speaker 3: or something that I could either outsource or find a solution.

499
00:26:11,840 --> 00:26:14,520
Speaker 3: And then what I'm planning to do is weekly review

500
00:26:14,600 --> 00:26:17,359
Speaker 3: that list and try to think more upstream.

501
00:26:17,680 --> 00:26:20,080
Speaker 1: Have you had any easy wins, like any second power

502
00:26:20,119 --> 00:26:21,360
Speaker 1: chord kind of stories.

503
00:26:21,640 --> 00:26:25,199
Speaker 3: Well, well, it's funny because I do have a second

504
00:26:25,200 --> 00:26:28,760
Speaker 3: power chord story, but that happened before the book. So

505
00:26:28,960 --> 00:26:32,199
Speaker 3: in my home office setup, and it's funny, like you,

506
00:26:32,280 --> 00:26:35,080
Speaker 3: I do my best work in coffee shops. But in

507
00:26:35,119 --> 00:26:37,879
Speaker 3: my home office setup, I've got the rooms kind of

508
00:26:37,880 --> 00:26:40,920
Speaker 3: split in half, and half of it is the podcast

509
00:26:41,119 --> 00:26:44,719
Speaker 3: studio with the soundproofing barriers and so forth, and the

510
00:26:44,760 --> 00:26:47,399
Speaker 3: other half is where I would do normal work, like

511
00:26:48,080 --> 00:26:51,400
Speaker 3: writing or something like that. And I used to only

512
00:26:51,440 --> 00:26:55,640
Speaker 3: have one power cord and I would move it between

513
00:26:55,840 --> 00:26:58,720
Speaker 3: both sides of the office. And it struck me that

514
00:26:58,720 --> 00:27:01,920
Speaker 3: that was quite annoying, having to go under the desk

515
00:27:02,000 --> 00:27:03,919
Speaker 3: and find the right cord and so forth. And so

516
00:27:04,160 --> 00:27:06,960
Speaker 3: I too, bought a second power cord.

517
00:27:08,840 --> 00:27:13,240
Speaker 1: Not International Association of People parkboard.

518
00:27:12,840 --> 00:27:15,000
Speaker 4: Owners, I know exactly.

519
00:27:15,280 --> 00:27:17,639
Speaker 3: I feel like Apple are missing a trick by, you know,

520
00:27:17,760 --> 00:27:21,679
Speaker 3: not bundling into power cords into the one package. But

521
00:27:21,960 --> 00:27:23,960
Speaker 3: I think that's great, just the idea of thinking about

522
00:27:24,040 --> 00:27:26,520
Speaker 3: recurring irritance in your life. And I don't want to

523
00:27:26,520 --> 00:27:28,800
Speaker 3: delve into the coffee shop thing. How did you discover

524
00:27:29,000 --> 00:27:32,240
Speaker 3: that you get your best work done in coffee shops?

525
00:27:32,320 --> 00:27:34,919
Speaker 3: Was there a moment was you know, why did you

526
00:27:34,960 --> 00:27:37,919
Speaker 3: even start doing that? If you've got this lovely home office.

527
00:27:38,240 --> 00:27:41,560
Speaker 1: Well, my love of coffee predates my love of writing.

528
00:27:41,640 --> 00:27:43,560
Speaker 1: So I was already spending a lot of time in

529
00:27:43,600 --> 00:27:48,400
Speaker 1: coffee shops. And I need to be heavily caffeinated before

530
00:27:48,440 --> 00:27:50,880
Speaker 1: I get really productive. And so I'm not sure there's

531
00:27:50,880 --> 00:27:55,840
Speaker 1: any great epiphany story behind this one. But I did

532
00:27:56,040 --> 00:27:58,720
Speaker 1: notice that when I was writing Me to Stick, which

533
00:27:58,760 --> 00:28:00,639
Speaker 1: was the first book that my brain chip and I

534
00:28:00,640 --> 00:28:04,800
Speaker 1: wrote together. In those days, I was a horrible, horrible procrastinator.

535
00:28:05,400 --> 00:28:09,280
Speaker 1: I mean I loved to have written. As some famous

536
00:28:09,280 --> 00:28:11,440
Speaker 1: author said, whose name I'm spacing on now, I love

537
00:28:11,520 --> 00:28:14,280
Speaker 1: to have written. But writing was something that I would

538
00:28:14,320 --> 00:28:18,760
Speaker 1: put off, just relentlessly, and it got to the point

539
00:28:18,760 --> 00:28:21,840
Speaker 1: where I would procrastinate so badly that the only way

540
00:28:21,880 --> 00:28:23,879
Speaker 1: I could get myself to write to get over that

541
00:28:23,960 --> 00:28:27,200
Speaker 1: hump was I would actually go down the street and

542
00:28:27,720 --> 00:28:32,720
Speaker 1: there was this copy center called Kinko's that rented computers

543
00:28:32,720 --> 00:28:36,080
Speaker 1: by the hour, and I started going there and paying

544
00:28:36,119 --> 00:28:38,200
Speaker 1: I mean I had a computer, mind you. I started

545
00:28:38,200 --> 00:28:41,080
Speaker 1: going there and paying to use their computers because I

546
00:28:41,160 --> 00:28:44,880
Speaker 1: would feel so guilty about procrastinating when I was paying

547
00:28:44,920 --> 00:28:47,600
Speaker 1: someone for computer usage. And that's what got me over

548
00:28:47,640 --> 00:28:50,720
Speaker 1: the hump, and I sort of eventually weaned myself over

549
00:28:50,760 --> 00:28:55,400
Speaker 1: that idiotic payment system and kind of downshifted to coffee shops.

550
00:28:55,480 --> 00:28:57,680
Speaker 1: I don't know, maybe it's something about just feeling like

551
00:28:57,720 --> 00:29:00,680
Speaker 1: you're being held accountable to the productive people around you

552
00:29:00,720 --> 00:29:03,800
Speaker 1: in a coffee shop. But I don't have any sensible

553
00:29:03,800 --> 00:29:06,880
Speaker 1: explanation for why that works. But it's the kind of

554
00:29:06,920 --> 00:29:10,360
Speaker 1: thing where you don't really need one. You know, if

555
00:29:10,360 --> 00:29:14,920
Speaker 1: you're careful in studying yourself at your best moments, you

556
00:29:14,920 --> 00:29:17,240
Speaker 1: can learn a lot. And we can spend a lot

557
00:29:17,240 --> 00:29:19,959
Speaker 1: of time wallowing and what doesn't work and in our

558
00:29:20,000 --> 00:29:23,280
Speaker 1: problems and in our frustrations, But if we just kind

559
00:29:23,320 --> 00:29:25,440
Speaker 1: of flip the lens a little bit and say, hey,

560
00:29:26,600 --> 00:29:29,400
Speaker 1: when things do work, when do they work, and why

561
00:29:29,440 --> 00:29:31,520
Speaker 1: do they work? And for me, the answer to that

562
00:29:31,600 --> 00:29:33,960
Speaker 1: question was, Hey, I seem to really be able to

563
00:29:33,960 --> 00:29:36,160
Speaker 1: click when I sit in the same table in the

564
00:29:36,160 --> 00:29:38,040
Speaker 1: same coffee shop and order the same thing and put

565
00:29:38,080 --> 00:29:40,080
Speaker 1: on my headphones, and so that's what I'm going to do.

566
00:29:40,720 --> 00:29:43,560
Speaker 3: That's awesome. I think for me, I feel like, you know,

567
00:29:43,640 --> 00:29:46,520
Speaker 3: writing is such a lonely activity, and I think when

568
00:29:46,560 --> 00:29:49,960
Speaker 3: I'm in amongst other people, whether they're working or chatting,

569
00:29:50,080 --> 00:29:52,800
Speaker 3: I just feel like I'm not missing out on stuff.

570
00:29:52,960 --> 00:29:54,840
Speaker 4: I'm just kind of in amongst it. But then I'm

571
00:29:54,840 --> 00:29:56,480
Speaker 4: doing my work. Now.

572
00:29:56,600 --> 00:30:00,440
Speaker 3: I'm so encouraged to hear that you are a procress Senator.

573
00:30:00,480 --> 00:30:03,680
Speaker 3: I think I read your books and they're brilliant. And

574
00:30:04,680 --> 00:30:06,680
Speaker 3: I've heard you say that with the books that you've

575
00:30:06,680 --> 00:30:09,280
Speaker 3: written with Chip, your brother, you kind of take on

576
00:30:09,400 --> 00:30:12,360
Speaker 3: predominantly the writing role and he takes on the research role.

577
00:30:12,400 --> 00:30:13,320
Speaker 4: Have I got that right?

578
00:30:13,520 --> 00:30:13,680
Speaker 3: Yeah?

579
00:30:13,800 --> 00:30:15,160
Speaker 4: Yeah, yeah, So.

580
00:30:15,200 --> 00:30:18,400
Speaker 3: It's encouraging to hear that you procrastinate over writing. Does

581
00:30:18,440 --> 00:30:20,920
Speaker 3: that still happen when you're writing now? Or has it

582
00:30:20,960 --> 00:30:24,440
Speaker 3: become so routine and habitual that you've got your setup

583
00:30:24,480 --> 00:30:27,120
Speaker 3: and when you're in the coffee shop with your stuff

584
00:30:27,120 --> 00:30:30,000
Speaker 3: that you need, you're kind of straight into It's kind

585
00:30:30,000 --> 00:30:33,360
Speaker 3: of almost Pablovian? What's that like for you? Now?

586
00:30:34,280 --> 00:30:37,000
Speaker 1: I am am pleased to say that I am a

587
00:30:37,400 --> 00:30:41,680
Speaker 1: largely curative procrastination. So if you are a procrastinator, please no, hope,

588
00:30:41,800 --> 00:30:44,680
Speaker 1: because I was right there with you in the trenches. Now,

589
00:30:44,920 --> 00:30:47,080
Speaker 1: I don't know that my solution is scalable, because my

590
00:30:47,160 --> 00:30:51,480
Speaker 1: solution was to have a brother slash collaborator who was

591
00:30:51,640 --> 00:30:54,080
Speaker 1: whatever the opposite of a procrastinator is you know, he

592
00:30:54,120 --> 00:30:56,040
Speaker 1: was the kind of student who would turn in their

593
00:30:56,160 --> 00:30:58,480
Speaker 1: term paper a week early just to make sure it

594
00:30:58,520 --> 00:31:00,280
Speaker 1: was out of the way. And I was the kind

595
00:31:00,280 --> 00:31:01,960
Speaker 1: of student who had started at three am in the

596
00:31:01,960 --> 00:31:06,520
Speaker 1: morning with you know, six caffeine pills or something. And

597
00:31:06,560 --> 00:31:09,320
Speaker 1: then I think, you know, my wife is also the

598
00:31:09,360 --> 00:31:11,640
Speaker 1: opposite of a procrastinator, and so I think between the

599
00:31:11,640 --> 00:31:13,760
Speaker 1: two of them, they kind of beat that instinct out

600
00:31:13,760 --> 00:31:16,320
Speaker 1: of me. But it also has a lot to do,

601
00:31:16,360 --> 00:31:19,840
Speaker 1: as you said, with habits. And you know, one thing

602
00:31:19,840 --> 00:31:22,880
Speaker 1: that has been true for me that that I've you know,

603
00:31:22,960 --> 00:31:25,240
Speaker 1: back to that idea of studying your own right spots.

604
00:31:25,600 --> 00:31:28,560
Speaker 1: One thing that is absolutely crystal clear for me is

605
00:31:28,600 --> 00:31:32,440
Speaker 1: that I do much better with momentum in writing. So

606
00:31:32,640 --> 00:31:35,560
Speaker 1: if I can write, you know, twenty five days out

607
00:31:35,560 --> 00:31:39,120
Speaker 1: of thirty that is far far better for me than

608
00:31:39,160 --> 00:31:43,240
Speaker 1: writing fifty days out of five months. I will literally

609
00:31:43,280 --> 00:31:45,440
Speaker 1: have more words on the page, and there'll be better

610
00:31:45,480 --> 00:31:48,080
Speaker 1: words with the twenty five days quickly than with the

611
00:31:48,120 --> 00:31:51,600
Speaker 1: fifty sporadically. And so that's the kind of thing that

612
00:31:51,760 --> 00:31:55,280
Speaker 1: over time you start to learn about yourself is you know,

613
00:31:55,320 --> 00:31:57,600
Speaker 1: what is it that elicits your best work and work

614
00:31:57,600 --> 00:31:59,720
Speaker 1: that you're proud of, and how do you replicate that.

615
00:32:00,960 --> 00:32:03,960
Speaker 3: It's interesting what you say about I guess having having

616
00:32:04,360 --> 00:32:08,040
Speaker 3: non procrastinators around you, and obviously with Upstream, this was

617
00:32:08,080 --> 00:32:10,960
Speaker 3: your first solo book, and I'm I'm curious as to

618
00:32:11,640 --> 00:32:13,960
Speaker 3: how how that was as a process and did you

619
00:32:14,000 --> 00:32:18,000
Speaker 3: have to develop different strategies for getting the book written

620
00:32:18,040 --> 00:32:20,000
Speaker 3: given that it wasn't a partnership with Chip.

621
00:32:21,000 --> 00:32:23,160
Speaker 1: Yeah, it was, I mean it was it was like

622
00:32:23,200 --> 00:32:25,600
Speaker 1: starting over. You know, it's like half of the half

623
00:32:25,640 --> 00:32:28,800
Speaker 1: of the team has gone. That's an enormous hole to fill.

624
00:32:29,560 --> 00:32:34,200
Speaker 1: And and I think probably it's shaped up about like

625
00:32:34,240 --> 00:32:37,080
Speaker 1: you would expect. You know, some things, some things were

626
00:32:37,120 --> 00:32:39,680
Speaker 1: really good about it. I didn't have to negotiate everything

627
00:32:39,760 --> 00:32:41,120
Speaker 1: in the book, and I could kind of do things

628
00:32:41,200 --> 00:32:42,000
Speaker 1: the way I wanted it.

629
00:32:42,360 --> 00:32:42,640
Speaker 2: Uh.

630
00:32:42,720 --> 00:32:44,960
Speaker 1: You know That's that's always the advantage of working solo,

631
00:32:45,040 --> 00:32:48,360
Speaker 1: as you get to have your way. And the downside was,

632
00:32:48,480 --> 00:32:50,880
Speaker 1: you know, it was a much lonelier process. I didn't

633
00:32:50,960 --> 00:32:53,280
Speaker 1: I didn't have a partner to talk things through, and

634
00:32:53,760 --> 00:32:57,320
Speaker 1: I didn't have someone in the boat with me rowing

635
00:32:57,360 --> 00:33:00,640
Speaker 1: that we could we could agonize about things together. And

636
00:33:01,560 --> 00:33:07,400
Speaker 1: of course the obvious is I lost his incredible research ability.

637
00:33:07,440 --> 00:33:10,400
Speaker 1: I had to basically hire a small team of people.

638
00:33:10,920 --> 00:33:14,520
Speaker 1: I had to basically hire a research team to try

639
00:33:14,520 --> 00:33:16,200
Speaker 1: to fill some of the things that he did as

640
00:33:16,320 --> 00:33:20,680
Speaker 1: as an individual. So it was a lot of new

641
00:33:20,840 --> 00:33:25,400
Speaker 1: habit creation, a lot of new routines. But I think

642
00:33:25,440 --> 00:33:28,920
Speaker 1: I grew from that. You know, it's anytime you try

643
00:33:28,960 --> 00:33:32,360
Speaker 1: something new that scares you a little bit. It may

644
00:33:32,400 --> 00:33:34,600
Speaker 1: work or it may not, but either way, you're probably

645
00:33:34,600 --> 00:33:35,120
Speaker 1: going to grow.

646
00:33:35,160 --> 00:33:36,240
Speaker 2: And I felt like I did.

647
00:33:36,800 --> 00:33:40,640
Speaker 3: Yeah, it's interesting the idea of not having that person

648
00:33:40,760 --> 00:33:44,280
Speaker 3: to bounce ideas around with, almost that sparring partner, And

649
00:33:45,120 --> 00:33:47,760
Speaker 3: it reminds me of this idea that Adam Grant talks

650
00:33:47,800 --> 00:33:50,959
Speaker 3: about in terms of developing a challenge network, so deliberately

651
00:33:51,400 --> 00:33:53,440
Speaker 3: seeking out a network of people who you can go

652
00:33:53,600 --> 00:33:57,240
Speaker 3: to to critique your work. So how did that work

653
00:33:57,280 --> 00:34:00,520
Speaker 3: for you? I mean, obviously you've got an editor, as

654
00:34:00,560 --> 00:34:03,400
Speaker 3: all authors do, but where there other strategies that you

655
00:34:03,440 --> 00:34:06,560
Speaker 3: put in place to I guess get that feedback.

656
00:34:07,800 --> 00:34:11,880
Speaker 1: I suspect this is just me. This is not like

657
00:34:11,920 --> 00:34:14,600
Speaker 1: some kind of universal rule. But I'm the kind of

658
00:34:14,600 --> 00:34:18,960
Speaker 1: writer where if I if I get a lot of feedback.

659
00:34:19,160 --> 00:34:23,320
Speaker 1: It's demotivating to me. Like I sort of like this

660
00:34:24,120 --> 00:34:26,319
Speaker 1: idea of unveiling, Like I like to go in my

661
00:34:26,360 --> 00:34:29,239
Speaker 1: little hole and do some writing and then voila, show

662
00:34:29,280 --> 00:34:31,480
Speaker 1: it to people and get their reaction. At that point,

663
00:34:31,640 --> 00:34:34,440
Speaker 1: and if people are kind of quibbling with me or

664
00:34:34,520 --> 00:34:36,479
Speaker 1: pushing back on a day to day basis, it makes

665
00:34:36,520 --> 00:34:40,879
Speaker 1: me question myself in an unhelpful way. So I do,

666
00:34:40,960 --> 00:34:44,759
Speaker 1: for sure get feedback, and it's critical, it's indispensable, but

667
00:34:44,800 --> 00:34:47,600
Speaker 1: I do it in a more formal way than perhaps

668
00:34:47,760 --> 00:34:52,000
Speaker 1: the Adam Grant strategy suggests. Like I basically with this book,

669
00:34:52,239 --> 00:34:56,799
Speaker 1: had had a moment roughly halfway or sixty percent of

670
00:34:56,800 --> 00:35:00,560
Speaker 1: the way through the process where I had created a

671
00:35:00,640 --> 00:35:04,120
Speaker 1: kind of draft one point zero book that I shipped

672
00:35:04,160 --> 00:35:07,359
Speaker 1: out to a bunch of people for feedback. There are

673
00:35:07,600 --> 00:35:08,960
Speaker 1: a couple of things that I want to point out

674
00:35:08,960 --> 00:35:11,520
Speaker 1: about it. One was it was at a time in

675
00:35:11,560 --> 00:35:14,719
Speaker 1: the process where I could afford for them to push back.

676
00:35:14,840 --> 00:35:16,600
Speaker 1: I think a lot of writers make the mistake of

677
00:35:17,000 --> 00:35:18,520
Speaker 1: you know, you get ninety percent of the way there

678
00:35:18,520 --> 00:35:20,719
Speaker 1: and then you start asking for feedback, and at that

679
00:35:20,880 --> 00:35:23,720
Speaker 1: point you just if you get negative feedback. You can't

680
00:35:23,719 --> 00:35:26,120
Speaker 1: afford to take it on. You know your your instincts

681
00:35:26,120 --> 00:35:27,920
Speaker 1: are going to be to push back and think, oh, well,

682
00:35:27,960 --> 00:35:30,480
Speaker 1: that's just nitpicking, or you know that you know I

683
00:35:30,520 --> 00:35:34,080
Speaker 1: can't afford to revisit that doing it earlier in the

684
00:35:34,120 --> 00:35:39,560
Speaker 1: process allows you the kind of I don't know, a

685
00:35:39,600 --> 00:35:44,000
Speaker 1: mental space to really rethink things if they were necessary,

686
00:35:44,000 --> 00:35:46,200
Speaker 1: and in some cases with the book, they were. The

687
00:35:46,239 --> 00:35:48,400
Speaker 1: other thing that I believe in with respective feedback is

688
00:35:48,480 --> 00:35:52,560
Speaker 1: I believe in I believe feedback is better when it's specific.

689
00:35:53,280 --> 00:35:55,360
Speaker 2: So I don't tend to ask people, you know, what

690
00:35:55,440 --> 00:35:56,280
Speaker 2: do you think of the book.

691
00:35:57,120 --> 00:35:59,240
Speaker 1: I don't want them to be tied up in trying

692
00:35:59,239 --> 00:36:03,400
Speaker 1: to spare my feet or you know, trying to play

693
00:36:03,400 --> 00:36:05,960
Speaker 1: back what they think I want to hear. And I

694
00:36:06,000 --> 00:36:11,239
Speaker 1: also don't necessarily trust if they had something that was

695
00:36:11,320 --> 00:36:13,600
Speaker 1: core to the theme of the book. I don't know

696
00:36:13,680 --> 00:36:16,520
Speaker 1: that you want to trust someone who's spent five hours

697
00:36:16,560 --> 00:36:19,360
Speaker 1: thinking about your book over yourself that spent two years

698
00:36:19,400 --> 00:36:22,720
Speaker 1: working on the book. But what I think you absolutely

699
00:36:22,800 --> 00:36:26,160
Speaker 1: can trust is just people's instinct about Hey, did you

700
00:36:26,200 --> 00:36:27,960
Speaker 1: did you like this part or did you not?

701
00:36:28,920 --> 00:36:29,640
Speaker 2: Was this interesting?

702
00:36:29,920 --> 00:36:32,160
Speaker 1: Was it not you know, which of these two things

703
00:36:32,160 --> 00:36:34,560
Speaker 1: did you like better. It reminds me of years ago

704
00:36:34,600 --> 00:36:37,120
Speaker 1: I had the conversation with the founder of Icebreaker. We

705
00:36:37,160 --> 00:36:40,120
Speaker 1: were talking about market research, and he said, my mental

706
00:36:40,120 --> 00:36:43,960
Speaker 1: model of market research is, you know, imagine if you

707
00:36:44,040 --> 00:36:46,600
Speaker 1: called people into a focus group room as a brewer

708
00:36:47,200 --> 00:36:49,360
Speaker 1: and you said, hey, what kind of beer would you

709
00:36:49,520 --> 00:36:53,120
Speaker 1: really like to drink? You know, people people are going

710
00:36:53,160 --> 00:36:55,840
Speaker 1: to come up with an answer to that, but you

711
00:36:55,920 --> 00:36:58,400
Speaker 1: really can't trust that answer because people just don't have

712
00:36:58,480 --> 00:37:02,040
Speaker 1: a language to articulate their perfect beer. I mean, I

713
00:37:02,080 --> 00:37:04,160
Speaker 1: don't know what I would say. I would probably try

714
00:37:04,160 --> 00:37:06,480
Speaker 1: to come up with something that sounded smart, but I'm

715
00:37:06,480 --> 00:37:08,919
Speaker 1: not sure it would be useful guidance. But he said,

716
00:37:08,960 --> 00:37:11,279
Speaker 1: what you absolutely can take to the bank is if

717
00:37:11,320 --> 00:37:13,640
Speaker 1: you hand people two glasses and you say, hey, which

718
00:37:13,640 --> 00:37:17,040
Speaker 1: of these beers tastes better to you? I mean, that's gold.

719
00:37:17,719 --> 00:37:20,640
Speaker 1: That's useful feedback. And so that's the spirit of what

720
00:37:20,719 --> 00:37:23,319
Speaker 1: I try to honor with the book is is I

721
00:37:23,320 --> 00:37:25,280
Speaker 1: want to get feedback at a point in the cycle

722
00:37:25,320 --> 00:37:27,719
Speaker 1: when I can use it. And the second thing is

723
00:37:27,920 --> 00:37:30,360
Speaker 1: I want to get feedback that's particular enough that I

724
00:37:30,400 --> 00:37:31,560
Speaker 1: can really trust it.

725
00:37:32,160 --> 00:37:35,520
Speaker 3: I like that idea of you know, getting feedback when

726
00:37:35,520 --> 00:37:36,719
Speaker 3: it's sixty percent done.

727
00:37:37,480 --> 00:37:38,480
Speaker 4: I couldn't agree more.

728
00:37:38,560 --> 00:37:43,680
Speaker 3: It's so hard really taking on feedback when you feel

729
00:37:43,680 --> 00:37:47,200
Speaker 3: like you're really close to shipping the product because you've

730
00:37:47,239 --> 00:37:50,720
Speaker 3: just got way too many biases in place. So I's

731
00:37:51,520 --> 00:37:55,239
Speaker 3: such good advice. I want to know, how how do

732
00:37:55,280 --> 00:37:58,240
Speaker 3: you know when you're onto a winning idea for a book,

733
00:37:58,320 --> 00:38:01,080
Speaker 3: because I just think with all of your books, I

734
00:38:01,160 --> 00:38:04,040
Speaker 3: just go, oh, they're so brilliant, and they're so universally

735
00:38:04,080 --> 00:38:08,600
Speaker 3: appealing as well, so that in those really early stages,

736
00:38:08,840 --> 00:38:11,680
Speaker 3: I'm kind of really keen to know, with all of

737
00:38:11,719 --> 00:38:14,080
Speaker 3: your books, where did the ideas come from? And how

738
00:38:14,120 --> 00:38:16,960
Speaker 3: did you know that, yes, this is something that is

739
00:38:17,000 --> 00:38:19,279
Speaker 3: worth spending the next three years of my life on.

740
00:38:21,400 --> 00:38:21,640
Speaker 2: Yeah.

741
00:38:21,680 --> 00:38:23,480
Speaker 1: I think that's one where I'm not going to have

742
00:38:23,520 --> 00:38:27,840
Speaker 1: a very satisfying answer because I just think that fundamentally, nobody,

743
00:38:28,480 --> 00:38:32,480
Speaker 1: as William Goldman once said about Hollywood and why certain

744
00:38:32,520 --> 00:38:35,360
Speaker 1: films do well and others don't, you know, nobody knows anything,

745
00:38:36,320 --> 00:38:38,839
Speaker 1: And I think that's true. I think that I have

746
00:38:38,920 --> 00:38:43,960
Speaker 1: no idea if Upstream will sell well or not. About

747
00:38:44,000 --> 00:38:48,560
Speaker 1: all that you can assure yourself. Of is two things.

748
00:38:48,600 --> 00:38:51,439
Speaker 1: One is, is this a topic that's going to keep

749
00:38:51,560 --> 00:38:54,799
Speaker 1: me fascinated for the period of years that it takes

750
00:38:54,840 --> 00:38:59,759
Speaker 1: to properly research and write about a book. And Chip

751
00:38:59,800 --> 00:39:02,720
Speaker 1: and I I've had several experiences where we started books

752
00:39:02,760 --> 00:39:05,719
Speaker 1: that we were quite excited about in month one and

753
00:39:05,760 --> 00:39:08,840
Speaker 1: then we literally burn three or four or five months

754
00:39:09,640 --> 00:39:12,520
Speaker 1: and decide, I just don't think this is it. I

755
00:39:12,520 --> 00:39:14,640
Speaker 1: don't think I can keep my attention up for two

756
00:39:14,640 --> 00:39:16,960
Speaker 1: more years of this stuff, and so you just flush it,

757
00:39:17,040 --> 00:39:20,200
Speaker 1: I mean literally just wasted work, but not in the

758
00:39:20,239 --> 00:39:23,839
Speaker 1: long run since so you can assure yourself of your

759
00:39:23,880 --> 00:39:26,680
Speaker 1: own attention. And that was one that for me. I mean,

760
00:39:26,719 --> 00:39:29,320
Speaker 1: even if nobody else in the world thinks Upstream is interesting,

761
00:39:29,400 --> 00:39:31,920
Speaker 1: I do. And I've been thinking about these ideas for

762
00:39:32,920 --> 00:39:36,040
Speaker 1: about eleven years now. I mean I literally started my

763
00:39:36,080 --> 00:39:38,799
Speaker 1: first word file keeping notes on Upstream in like two

764
00:39:38,840 --> 00:39:41,880
Speaker 1: thousand and nine, so I knew for sure this was

765
00:39:42,160 --> 00:39:43,960
Speaker 1: a book that was going to be fascinating for me,

766
00:39:44,040 --> 00:39:47,080
Speaker 1: which is a big deal. And then the second thing is,

767
00:39:47,440 --> 00:39:50,520
Speaker 1: I think you can assure yourself that, at least for

768
00:39:50,560 --> 00:39:52,920
Speaker 1: the kind of book that we're talking about, this is

769
00:39:53,040 --> 00:39:55,960
Speaker 1: certainly not true for novels or historical fiction or whatever.

770
00:39:56,400 --> 00:39:58,800
Speaker 1: But for these kinds of books, you can assure yourself

771
00:39:58,840 --> 00:40:02,440
Speaker 1: that a lot of people are facing the problem that

772
00:40:02,480 --> 00:40:05,799
Speaker 1: you're tackling. So with Made to Stick, you know, we

773
00:40:05,920 --> 00:40:07,600
Speaker 1: knew for sure that there were a lot of people

774
00:40:07,600 --> 00:40:09,360
Speaker 1: in the world who had really good ideas that they

775
00:40:09,360 --> 00:40:12,120
Speaker 1: were trying to get across to other people. They needed

776
00:40:12,160 --> 00:40:15,560
Speaker 1: to build alliances, they needed to make great presentations, They

777
00:40:15,600 --> 00:40:18,600
Speaker 1: wanted to give powerful vision speeches to their teams, and

778
00:40:18,840 --> 00:40:21,040
Speaker 1: so we knew the need was there if we could

779
00:40:21,080 --> 00:40:24,560
Speaker 1: find a set of tools that were useful. And so

780
00:40:24,600 --> 00:40:27,160
Speaker 1: there's some comfort that comes from knowing, at least you're

781
00:40:27,160 --> 00:40:31,000
Speaker 1: tackling a problem that's really important and really pervasive. But

782
00:40:31,120 --> 00:40:34,400
Speaker 1: in terms of, you know, does do the two of

783
00:40:34,440 --> 00:40:36,160
Speaker 1: those things translate into book sales?

784
00:40:36,320 --> 00:40:36,839
Speaker 2: Who knows?

785
00:40:36,920 --> 00:40:39,480
Speaker 1: I think there's ten confounding variables in the middle.

786
00:40:40,680 --> 00:40:43,480
Speaker 3: I've heard you say in terms of what makes a

787
00:40:43,520 --> 00:40:46,400
Speaker 3: great business book, in terms of the how to business

788
00:40:46,400 --> 00:40:49,760
Speaker 3: books like the genre that you write with, you said,

789
00:40:49,800 --> 00:40:52,239
Speaker 3: do people crave the information in the book and does

790
00:40:52,239 --> 00:40:56,120
Speaker 3: the book deliver useful tools? And I really loved that

791
00:40:56,560 --> 00:41:00,400
Speaker 3: as kind of thinking about Okay, you know that the

792
00:41:00,560 --> 00:41:02,640
Speaker 3: two things I guess to guide your decision making.

793
00:41:03,960 --> 00:41:06,279
Speaker 1: Yeah, I heard I heard a speech years ago from

794
00:41:06,320 --> 00:41:09,120
Speaker 1: this publisher named ray Bard, and I remembered it to

795
00:41:09,120 --> 00:41:12,080
Speaker 1: this day. And he talked about the notion of a

796
00:41:12,120 --> 00:41:15,000
Speaker 1: felt need, which you know, we're talking a lot about

797
00:41:15,040 --> 00:41:17,239
Speaker 1: writers and writing today, but I think many of these

798
00:41:17,280 --> 00:41:20,960
Speaker 1: ideas apply to lots of different markets, and this one

799
00:41:21,000 --> 00:41:24,080
Speaker 1: certainly does. And felt need is the idea that it's

800
00:41:24,160 --> 00:41:27,040
Speaker 1: not enough to give people a product, you know, in

801
00:41:27,040 --> 00:41:30,919
Speaker 1: this case, a book that is good for them, they

802
00:41:30,960 --> 00:41:34,239
Speaker 1: have to have they have to feel a need for it.

803
00:41:34,320 --> 00:41:38,440
Speaker 1: And the example he gave was was memorable. He said,

804
00:41:40,160 --> 00:41:44,239
Speaker 1: the perennial bestseller What to Expect when You're Expecting for

805
00:41:44,320 --> 00:41:47,720
Speaker 1: Pregnant Women is the perfect example.

806
00:41:47,239 --> 00:41:49,120
Speaker 2: Of felt need. You know, you you.

807
00:41:49,480 --> 00:41:52,360
Speaker 1: Find yourself pregnant, you've done the pregnancy test, and you

808
00:41:52,400 --> 00:41:55,200
Speaker 1: get the pink strip, and you're like, oh my god,

809
00:41:55,280 --> 00:41:57,920
Speaker 1: what am I in for? What's gonna what's going to

810
00:41:57,960 --> 00:42:00,440
Speaker 1: happen to my body? And what's normal and what's not normal?

811
00:42:00,920 --> 00:42:06,840
Speaker 1: You crave information And ray Bard contrasted that with a

812
00:42:06,880 --> 00:42:11,920
Speaker 1: book for men that was how to have more empathy

813
00:42:11,960 --> 00:42:15,239
Speaker 1: for the bodily changes your wife is going through during pregnancy,

814
00:42:15,800 --> 00:42:19,919
Speaker 1: and he said every man should be required to read

815
00:42:19,960 --> 00:42:23,680
Speaker 1: that book. I mean it should be, it should be,

816
00:42:23,960 --> 00:42:27,279
Speaker 1: you know, a legal it should be a legal requirement

817
00:42:27,320 --> 00:42:29,719
Speaker 1: for men to read that. But there's probably not the

818
00:42:29,760 --> 00:42:32,400
Speaker 1: felt need, which is of course telling about men. But

819
00:42:32,440 --> 00:42:35,640
Speaker 1: I think his point is right that having a book

820
00:42:35,640 --> 00:42:37,640
Speaker 1: that's good for you is not the same thing as

821
00:42:37,680 --> 00:42:41,480
Speaker 1: a book that you demand. And so I think when

822
00:42:41,480 --> 00:42:43,279
Speaker 1: we're in the business of trying to get people to

823
00:42:44,960 --> 00:42:47,600
Speaker 1: buy what we're selling them, we have to pay attention

824
00:42:47,719 --> 00:42:50,200
Speaker 1: to what their felt need is, not what do we

825
00:42:50,200 --> 00:42:51,440
Speaker 1: think would be good for them.

826
00:42:51,760 --> 00:42:55,799
Speaker 3: That's such great advice really for anyone putting anything at

827
00:42:55,840 --> 00:42:58,360
Speaker 3: into the world that they're hoping someone will find a value.

828
00:42:58,640 --> 00:43:03,040
Speaker 4: I love that. I would to also ask with your books.

829
00:43:03,640 --> 00:43:07,120
Speaker 3: I feel like they've all got these very elegant frameworks

830
00:43:07,120 --> 00:43:09,320
Speaker 3: that sit behind them, and I want to know what's

831
00:43:09,920 --> 00:43:13,359
Speaker 3: what's your process for developing those because I'm imagining once

832
00:43:13,400 --> 00:43:17,080
Speaker 3: you've got your initial idea, it's the framework that would

833
00:43:17,320 --> 00:43:21,360
Speaker 3: come next before you even start putting pen to paper

834
00:43:21,360 --> 00:43:23,479
Speaker 3: in terms of writing the prose of the book.

835
00:43:23,560 --> 00:43:25,520
Speaker 4: Is that sort of fair to say in terms of

836
00:43:25,520 --> 00:43:26,120
Speaker 4: your process.

837
00:43:27,400 --> 00:43:31,240
Speaker 1: Yeah, absolutely, So just to give listeners a concrete example,

838
00:43:31,280 --> 00:43:33,040
Speaker 1: we've talked a couple of times about this book Made

839
00:43:33,040 --> 00:43:35,240
Speaker 1: to Stick. That's about how do you make your ideas

840
00:43:35,239 --> 00:43:37,480
Speaker 1: stick with people? And the core of the book is

841
00:43:38,040 --> 00:43:48,279
Speaker 1: a six part framework that sticky ideas are simple, they're unexpected, concrete, credible, emotional,

842
00:43:48,360 --> 00:43:51,080
Speaker 1: and they're often told us stories. And so we're using

843
00:43:51,120 --> 00:43:54,480
Speaker 1: a little kind of cheesy mnemonic there success minus the

844
00:43:54,520 --> 00:43:56,680
Speaker 1: final s. We didn't find a seventh grade, so we

845
00:43:56,760 --> 00:43:59,040
Speaker 1: have this kind of truncated version of the word success

846
00:43:59,080 --> 00:44:03,240
Speaker 1: to help people remember. And before, as you said, before

847
00:44:03,280 --> 00:44:06,000
Speaker 1: we started the book, we knew what that framework was

848
00:44:07,000 --> 00:44:09,719
Speaker 1: and it guided the production of the book. But of

849
00:44:09,760 --> 00:44:11,640
Speaker 1: course we spend a lot of time in the wilderness

850
00:44:11,640 --> 00:44:13,960
Speaker 1: trying to figure out what those traits are and which

851
00:44:14,000 --> 00:44:18,640
Speaker 1: ones do we believe, And with our first four books,

852
00:44:18,960 --> 00:44:21,920
Speaker 1: we had a framework for each one in the same spirit,

853
00:44:22,000 --> 00:44:26,640
Speaker 1: and that's really the heart of our collaboration that yes

854
00:44:26,760 --> 00:44:28,680
Speaker 1: I do most of the writing and yes Chip does

855
00:44:28,680 --> 00:44:30,680
Speaker 1: most of the research, but the hard part is really

856
00:44:30,719 --> 00:44:32,520
Speaker 1: what's in the middle of those two things, which is

857
00:44:32,560 --> 00:44:35,600
Speaker 1: figuring out what are the patterns in the research that

858
00:44:35,640 --> 00:44:40,200
Speaker 1: you're doing, and windows academic research seem to meet up

859
00:44:40,239 --> 00:44:43,080
Speaker 1: with real world experience, and when are you hearing the

860
00:44:43,120 --> 00:44:45,520
Speaker 1: same things from very different disciplines in a way that

861
00:44:45,600 --> 00:44:48,520
Speaker 1: makes you trust the idea more. And on top of

862
00:44:48,560 --> 00:44:50,880
Speaker 1: all that, it's not enough for something to be true,

863
00:44:50,880 --> 00:44:52,680
Speaker 1: it also has to be useful, at least for the

864
00:44:52,760 --> 00:44:55,399
Speaker 1: kind of books we're writing. You know, we don't want

865
00:44:55,400 --> 00:44:59,640
Speaker 1: to just have academic debates in our books. We want

866
00:44:59,640 --> 00:45:02,760
Speaker 1: people to have tools that will make them better business

867
00:45:02,760 --> 00:45:06,239
Speaker 1: people or government leaders or teachers the next week. And

868
00:45:06,320 --> 00:45:09,400
Speaker 1: so part of what we kind of aspire to in

869
00:45:09,440 --> 00:45:12,560
Speaker 1: our books is are the ideas we write about are

870
00:45:12,560 --> 00:45:14,680
Speaker 1: they true? Are they backed by some kind of evidence?

871
00:45:14,840 --> 00:45:18,160
Speaker 1: And are they practical? And are they interesting enough to

872
00:45:18,200 --> 00:45:20,319
Speaker 1: keep a reader flipping through a book? So if we

873
00:45:20,320 --> 00:45:22,640
Speaker 1: can overlap all of those circles in a neat, little

874
00:45:22,719 --> 00:45:25,600
Speaker 1: Venn diagram, that's where our framework emerges from.

875
00:45:26,160 --> 00:45:27,080
Speaker 4: Yeah, that's great.

876
00:45:27,239 --> 00:45:30,360
Speaker 3: Like how much toing and froing is there to land

877
00:45:30,400 --> 00:45:32,759
Speaker 3: on the final framework? I guess this is several weeks

878
00:45:32,800 --> 00:45:35,920
Speaker 3: a several month process. You know, once you've I guess

879
00:45:36,000 --> 00:45:39,120
Speaker 3: done a lot of the research that sits behind the framework.

880
00:45:39,400 --> 00:45:41,440
Speaker 1: Oh, it's months and months and months. I mean it's

881
00:45:41,520 --> 00:45:45,719
Speaker 1: the heart of the book. Really, the framework is fundamentally

882
00:45:46,320 --> 00:45:48,759
Speaker 1: what we're offering people. I mean, the book is a

883
00:45:48,840 --> 00:45:52,160
Speaker 1: package for the framework, but you could communicate the framework

884
00:45:52,200 --> 00:45:55,480
Speaker 1: in a workshop or a speech or an article. The

885
00:45:55,520 --> 00:45:59,480
Speaker 1: framework is the thing. And so you know, from the

886
00:45:59,560 --> 00:46:03,279
Speaker 1: very beginning we are we're iterating, and you know, we

887
00:46:03,360 --> 00:46:06,120
Speaker 1: probably take a couple of months just blue Sky to

888
00:46:06,200 --> 00:46:09,560
Speaker 1: research and start to see if themes are bubbling up.

889
00:46:09,640 --> 00:46:13,239
Speaker 1: And you know, by three to six months in we're

890
00:46:13,280 --> 00:46:17,440
Speaker 1: starting to try to come up with draft frameworks and

891
00:46:17,480 --> 00:46:20,360
Speaker 1: then they get iterated a hundred times before we finally

892
00:46:20,480 --> 00:46:23,360
Speaker 1: land on something that we think is the right blend

893
00:46:23,400 --> 00:46:28,040
Speaker 1: of simplicity and practicality and completeness.

894
00:46:28,400 --> 00:46:32,160
Speaker 3: I am fascinated by this, and I'm also very encouraged

895
00:46:32,200 --> 00:46:36,280
Speaker 3: to hear what a long, intensive process it is, because

896
00:46:36,280 --> 00:46:39,200
Speaker 3: I look at these in your books and I'm like, oh, wow,

897
00:46:39,480 --> 00:46:42,480
Speaker 3: that's so brilliant. So I'm very encouraged to hear about

898
00:46:42,480 --> 00:46:43,520
Speaker 3: how challenging it is.

899
00:46:44,000 --> 00:46:46,919
Speaker 4: Just from a selfish point of view, I know we're

900
00:46:46,960 --> 00:46:48,000
Speaker 4: almost out of time.

901
00:46:48,040 --> 00:46:51,120
Speaker 3: And look, my last question for you, I guess relates

902
00:46:51,120 --> 00:46:53,840
Speaker 3: to everything that you have written and learned in the

903
00:46:53,880 --> 00:46:57,439
Speaker 3: process of writing your books, because they do cover such

904
00:46:57,719 --> 00:47:01,680
Speaker 3: fundamentally important topics like how to change people, how to

905
00:47:01,719 --> 00:47:05,279
Speaker 3: make decisions, how to create these defining moments in your life.

906
00:47:05,520 --> 00:47:07,440
Speaker 3: And I know for me, you know, as I mentioned,

907
00:47:07,480 --> 00:47:10,920
Speaker 3: Decisive and Power of Moments have been ones.

908
00:47:10,640 --> 00:47:12,160
Speaker 4: That I think I apply.

909
00:47:13,200 --> 00:47:16,160
Speaker 3: I still apply, you know, some of the strategies from

910
00:47:16,200 --> 00:47:19,840
Speaker 3: those books almost every week of my life, Like, for example,

911
00:47:19,880 --> 00:47:23,200
Speaker 3: with Decisive, I still whenever I'm faced with a whether

912
00:47:23,320 --> 00:47:26,200
Speaker 3: or not decision where there's essentially should I do this

913
00:47:26,320 --> 00:47:29,280
Speaker 3: or shouldn't I, I remember that those decisions fail fifty

914
00:47:29,320 --> 00:47:31,799
Speaker 3: percent of the time, and I deliberately look for some

915
00:47:31,920 --> 00:47:35,359
Speaker 3: true alternatives and with the Power of Moments that influenced

916
00:47:35,440 --> 00:47:38,720
Speaker 3: my thinking not only about work and customers, but also

917
00:47:38,840 --> 00:47:42,640
Speaker 3: just about time with my daughter, and deliberately crafting these

918
00:47:42,640 --> 00:47:45,560
Speaker 3: defining moments that still impacts me to this day. And

919
00:47:45,600 --> 00:47:48,000
Speaker 3: I want to know for you, out of everything that

920
00:47:48,040 --> 00:47:51,520
Speaker 3: you've written, what I guess maybe one or two or

921
00:47:51,560 --> 00:47:54,239
Speaker 3: three of the kind of they might be just really

922
00:47:54,280 --> 00:47:57,160
Speaker 3: simple changes, but I guess changes that have had you

923
00:47:57,680 --> 00:47:59,360
Speaker 3: been really impactful in your life.

924
00:48:00,200 --> 00:48:00,520
Speaker 2: Hmmm.

925
00:48:01,160 --> 00:48:04,239
Speaker 1: You know, what are the greatest hits I think you know.

926
00:48:04,840 --> 00:48:07,160
Speaker 1: One of them, honestly, is the same one that you flagged.

927
00:48:07,200 --> 00:48:11,960
Speaker 1: I think Decisive, which is our book about decision making,

928
00:48:12,320 --> 00:48:16,480
Speaker 1: has fundamentally changed the way I approach decisions. And one

929
00:48:16,520 --> 00:48:18,399
Speaker 1: of the tips that's easiest to explain is the one

930
00:48:18,400 --> 00:48:21,239
Speaker 1: that you mentioned, which is, any time in life you

931
00:48:21,280 --> 00:48:24,880
Speaker 1: find yourself framing a decision about whether or not to

932
00:48:24,920 --> 00:48:27,560
Speaker 1: do such and such. You know, should I buy this

933
00:48:27,600 --> 00:48:29,400
Speaker 1: thing or not? Should I take this trip or not?

934
00:48:29,480 --> 00:48:32,319
Speaker 1: Should I say yes to this project or not. That's

935
00:48:32,320 --> 00:48:38,440
Speaker 1: a dangerous framing. And the reason is because not is

936
00:48:38,480 --> 00:48:40,640
Speaker 1: not a particularly compelling decision option.

937
00:48:40,880 --> 00:48:41,080
Speaker 2: Right.

938
00:48:41,360 --> 00:48:43,960
Speaker 1: It's like think of a corporation thinking should we acquire

939
00:48:44,000 --> 00:48:47,120
Speaker 1: this firm or not? And the longer you think about it,

940
00:48:47,160 --> 00:48:48,879
Speaker 1: and the longer you ponder it, and the more due

941
00:48:48,880 --> 00:48:53,440
Speaker 1: diligence you do, the more you feel invested in the

942
00:48:53,480 --> 00:48:55,719
Speaker 1: one option that's on the table, and the harder it

943
00:48:55,800 --> 00:48:57,919
Speaker 1: is for you to just say no, because then you've

944
00:48:58,040 --> 00:48:59,400
Speaker 1: flushed all that analysis.

945
00:48:59,440 --> 00:48:59,960
Speaker 2: It's gone.

946
00:49:00,719 --> 00:49:03,560
Speaker 1: And so when you have a decision, you've got one

947
00:49:03,560 --> 00:49:06,080
Speaker 1: option on the table rather than frame it is should

948
00:49:06,080 --> 00:49:06,640
Speaker 1: I do this thing?

949
00:49:06,640 --> 00:49:07,520
Speaker 2: Should I buy this.

950
00:49:07,400 --> 00:49:12,000
Speaker 1: Thing or not? Challenge yourself. You know, do the opportunity

951
00:49:12,120 --> 00:49:15,279
Speaker 1: cost questions? So it's I was talking to someone the

952
00:49:15,320 --> 00:49:17,880
Speaker 1: other day who wanted to write a book that was

953
00:49:17,920 --> 00:49:20,439
Speaker 1: on their bucket list. And so rather than think about

954
00:49:20,440 --> 00:49:22,880
Speaker 1: it as should I write a book or not, you

955
00:49:22,960 --> 00:49:26,680
Speaker 1: should think whatever itch that I'm trying to scratch by

956
00:49:26,719 --> 00:49:28,919
Speaker 1: writing a book. What if I couldn't write a book,

957
00:49:28,920 --> 00:49:30,400
Speaker 1: how would I scratch that same miche?

958
00:49:30,920 --> 00:49:31,560
Speaker 2: You know, is it?

959
00:49:31,640 --> 00:49:34,399
Speaker 1: Maybe it's a creative thing and you might have spent

960
00:49:34,480 --> 00:49:37,239
Speaker 1: that time doing improv comedy, or you might have spent

961
00:49:37,320 --> 00:49:40,160
Speaker 1: it painting or something like that. Or maybe it's a

962
00:49:40,200 --> 00:49:42,680
Speaker 1: business development thing like the book for you would have

963
00:49:42,719 --> 00:49:45,160
Speaker 1: represented a way to get more clients or more speeches

964
00:49:45,239 --> 00:49:47,600
Speaker 1: or what have you. And if that's true, what would

965
00:49:47,640 --> 00:49:49,640
Speaker 1: you do to advance those goals in the absence of

966
00:49:49,640 --> 00:49:53,000
Speaker 1: a book? And then that's your comparison, you know, It's

967
00:49:53,040 --> 00:49:54,760
Speaker 1: not should I write a book or not? Is should

968
00:49:54,800 --> 00:49:57,240
Speaker 1: I invest hundreds of hours writing a book or hundreds

969
00:49:57,239 --> 00:50:00,640
Speaker 1: of hours getting better at improv comedy. So that's one

970
00:50:00,680 --> 00:50:03,759
Speaker 1: thing I think about all the time, and that has

971
00:50:03,800 --> 00:50:07,919
Speaker 1: become a permanent part of my decision process. Another thing

972
00:50:08,239 --> 00:50:13,520
Speaker 1: that has stuck with me is the idea that you

973
00:50:13,600 --> 00:50:15,880
Speaker 1: mentioned of peak moments, which comes from the Power of

974
00:50:15,920 --> 00:50:18,880
Speaker 1: Moment's book, and the heart of this I think I

975
00:50:18,880 --> 00:50:22,880
Speaker 1: can summarize as follows is what we know from people's

976
00:50:23,000 --> 00:50:27,120
Speaker 1: memories of their experiences is that some moments matter dramatically

977
00:50:27,400 --> 00:50:30,680
Speaker 1: more than others. I mean one hundred or a thousand

978
00:50:30,760 --> 00:50:34,839
Speaker 1: times as important certain moments are than others. And if

979
00:50:34,880 --> 00:50:37,160
Speaker 1: you even think about your own memories, like think back

980
00:50:37,200 --> 00:50:39,279
Speaker 1: to a vacation you took five or ten years ago,

981
00:50:39,440 --> 00:50:44,080
Speaker 1: or think back to a semester in school or in university,

982
00:50:44,200 --> 00:50:47,520
Speaker 1: you'll quickly realize that the vast majority of that experience

983
00:50:47,560 --> 00:50:51,680
Speaker 1: has gone and what you're left with are certain moments.

984
00:50:52,680 --> 00:50:55,439
Speaker 1: And question is why those moments? And in the book

985
00:50:55,440 --> 00:50:57,880
Speaker 1: we try to answer the question what is it about

986
00:50:57,880 --> 00:51:01,120
Speaker 1: those experiences that's stuck with you? And how can you

987
00:51:01,160 --> 00:51:04,120
Speaker 1: go about creating more? And so what it's taught me

988
00:51:04,440 --> 00:51:08,160
Speaker 1: is I think the most practical lesson that comes out

989
00:51:08,200 --> 00:51:12,000
Speaker 1: of that is to be willing to endure inconvenience for

990
00:51:12,040 --> 00:51:14,640
Speaker 1: the sake of a peak moment. Like I think of

991
00:51:14,680 --> 00:51:16,680
Speaker 1: a time it was a couple of years ago now,

992
00:51:16,719 --> 00:51:22,839
Speaker 1: but there was a full eclipse of the sun that

993
00:51:23,000 --> 00:51:25,440
Speaker 1: was I forget what you call the like path of

994
00:51:25,480 --> 00:51:28,600
Speaker 1: the sun that gets the full eclipse. But we were

995
00:51:28,640 --> 00:51:30,879
Speaker 1: pretty close to that path where I am in North

996
00:51:30,880 --> 00:51:35,439
Speaker 1: Carolina in the US. But it required about a let's see,

997
00:51:35,520 --> 00:51:37,640
Speaker 1: three to three and a half hour each way drive,

998
00:51:37,760 --> 00:51:41,960
Speaker 1: so maybe seven hour round trip drive. And I think

999
00:51:42,000 --> 00:51:44,439
Speaker 1: before I wrote the book Power of Moments, I would

1000
00:51:44,480 --> 00:51:47,879
Speaker 1: have said, forget that. I mean seven hours on the road,

1001
00:51:47,920 --> 00:51:50,160
Speaker 1: and it's going to be traffic because every other yeahoo's

1002
00:51:50,200 --> 00:51:52,600
Speaker 1: going to be trying to see the eclipse. And you know,

1003
00:51:52,640 --> 00:51:54,520
Speaker 1: I'll just watch the thing on YouTube and be done

1004
00:51:54,520 --> 00:51:54,719
Speaker 1: with it.

1005
00:51:54,760 --> 00:51:55,600
Speaker 2: How good can it be?

1006
00:51:56,520 --> 00:52:00,839
Speaker 1: But what you realize is five years from now, all

1007
00:52:00,880 --> 00:52:02,879
Speaker 1: the details of that drive are going to be gone.

1008
00:52:03,000 --> 00:52:05,520
Speaker 1: That's a classic thing that your memory is gonna flush.

1009
00:52:05,920 --> 00:52:08,000
Speaker 1: But what you will remember, and what I do remember,

1010
00:52:08,000 --> 00:52:11,239
Speaker 1: because I did make the trip, is it's seeing the

1011
00:52:11,280 --> 00:52:13,279
Speaker 1: world go dark around you in the middle of the

1012
00:52:13,400 --> 00:52:18,719
Speaker 1: day and hearing insects start to make noise because they're

1013
00:52:18,760 --> 00:52:21,160
Speaker 1: tricked and they think it's the night time, and so

1014
00:52:21,239 --> 00:52:23,399
Speaker 1: you're hearing crickets chirp in the middle of the day.

1015
00:52:24,160 --> 00:52:26,879
Speaker 1: And then when the sun finally starts to come out

1016
00:52:26,880 --> 00:52:28,799
Speaker 1: the other side, you hear birds chirp as though it's

1017
00:52:28,840 --> 00:52:33,359
Speaker 1: the morning, and it's just this fundamentally alien and wonderful

1018
00:52:33,480 --> 00:52:37,400
Speaker 1: experience that would not have been replicated on YouTube. And

1019
00:52:37,719 --> 00:52:40,560
Speaker 1: so yes, I drove seven hours to have an experience

1020
00:52:40,600 --> 00:52:42,040
Speaker 1: that lasted about ten minutes.

1021
00:52:42,800 --> 00:52:44,320
Speaker 2: But you know, five.

1022
00:52:44,200 --> 00:52:46,239
Speaker 1: Years down the road, ten years down the road, all

1023
00:52:46,360 --> 00:52:48,759
Speaker 1: I'm going to have left is that wonderful moment that

1024
00:52:48,800 --> 00:52:51,120
Speaker 1: would have been absent had I done kind of a

1025
00:52:51,160 --> 00:52:55,120
Speaker 1: strict minute by minute trade off of time. So that

1026
00:52:55,280 --> 00:52:57,680
Speaker 1: was a very long answer to your question. But those

1027
00:52:57,719 --> 00:52:59,680
Speaker 1: are two things that have really made a difference in

1028
00:52:59,680 --> 00:53:00,000
Speaker 1: my life.

1029
00:53:00,400 --> 00:53:03,120
Speaker 3: That is a beautiful story. And look, we are so

1030
00:53:03,560 --> 00:53:07,040
Speaker 3: out of time has flown for me certainly. But finally,

1031
00:53:07,120 --> 00:53:10,000
Speaker 3: where can people find you, Dan? And where can they

1032
00:53:10,040 --> 00:53:11,840
Speaker 3: get their copy of Upstream?

1033
00:53:12,719 --> 00:53:15,520
Speaker 1: Well, wherever you buy books, hopefully they have a copy

1034
00:53:15,560 --> 00:53:18,279
Speaker 1: of Upstream on hand. And if you want to learn

1035
00:53:18,320 --> 00:53:22,760
Speaker 1: more about me, come check out the website Heath Brothers

1036
00:53:22,880 --> 00:53:23,560
Speaker 1: dot com.

1037
00:53:24,000 --> 00:53:26,520
Speaker 2: That's Heath h Ea.

1038
00:53:26,920 --> 00:53:28,600
Speaker 1: And you can find out about all the books we've

1039
00:53:28,600 --> 00:53:29,959
Speaker 1: discussed right there.

1040
00:53:30,360 --> 00:53:32,359
Speaker 3: Fantastic and I will link to all that in the

1041
00:53:32,400 --> 00:53:35,759
Speaker 3: show notes. Dan, it has been an absolute joy. Thank

1042
00:53:35,800 --> 00:53:37,360
Speaker 3: you so much for your time.

1043
00:53:37,920 --> 00:53:39,040
Speaker 2: Thank you, it's been fun.

1044
00:53:39,520 --> 00:53:41,480
Speaker 4: So that is it for today's show.

1045
00:53:41,600 --> 00:53:45,080
Speaker 3: I hope you liked my chat with Dan as much

1046
00:53:45,120 --> 00:53:49,480
Speaker 3: as I absolutely loved interviewing him. And if you know

1047
00:53:49,560 --> 00:53:53,439
Speaker 3: someone else who think would benefit from this interview, why

1048
00:53:53,480 --> 00:53:56,319
Speaker 3: not share the episode with them. That is one of

1049
00:53:56,360 --> 00:53:59,760
Speaker 3: the ways that this podcast has kept growing and growing.

1050
00:54:00,320 --> 00:54:02,200
Speaker 3: So thank you for all those that spread the word

1051
00:54:02,239 --> 00:54:05,920
Speaker 3: about how I work. It is greatly appreciated. So that

1052
00:54:06,000 --> 00:54:08,319
Speaker 3: is it for today and I'll see you next time.