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Speaker 1: Jonesy and Amanda in the morning. Well, Saturday night, I

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Speaker 1: went to see Lee Sayles interview Monica Lewinsky and she

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Speaker 1: is now an advocate for OR. She's a campaigner to

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Speaker 1: stop cyber bullying. She says she was patient zero in

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Speaker 1: public humiliation and how your life can just end overnight,

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Speaker 1: and it particularly in a modern era. Public shaming in

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Speaker 1: the modern era is something that she talks about and

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Speaker 1: it's interesting looking. She wonders how different it would have

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Speaker 1: been if her public shaming had happened now. On one hand,

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Speaker 1: she thinks it'd be more there. Of course, it'd be

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Speaker 1: more of a pylon maybe, but she'd have had her

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Speaker 1: own voice through it. She could have answered back. And

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Speaker 1: the new cycle is so much faster.

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Speaker 2: That's quicker. It definitely wouldn't have lasted as long as it.

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Speaker 1: Has, that's right. But for her, twenty years after this incident,

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Speaker 1: she is still a public name that everybody knows for

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Speaker 1: all the wrong reasons. Infamous, infamous, and her message is

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Speaker 1: if I can survive this, so can you.

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Speaker 2: How does she survive it?

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Speaker 1: Well, because a lot of she does a lot of

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Speaker 1: good works for there's some public service announcements. Here's how

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Speaker 1: we can help cyber bullying. Here's how you can break

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Speaker 1: the circuit the cycle. Here's how you can be kinder.

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Speaker 1: She talks about clicking with compassion, for all of us

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Speaker 1: in social media to click with compassion, and it made

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Speaker 1: me think, you know, I make jokes about the people

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Speaker 1: who go on Love Island and those sorts of shows.

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Speaker 1: Really I'm going to try and be kinder because that

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Speaker 1: is nineteen year olds who don't know what they're doing.

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Speaker 1: They're manipulated in this TV show. Why should they be

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Speaker 1: publicly damned for one event? And listening to her talk

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Speaker 1: about what happened to her is extraordinary, she said, and

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Speaker 1: how she's unpicking what happened to her, she's still unpacking

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Speaker 1: it and unpicking it twenty years later. She's always held

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Speaker 1: onto the notion, she said, I was not a victim.

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Speaker 1: It was a consensual relationship she had with Build Clinton,

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Speaker 1: and she's really held stronger onto the fact it was consensual.

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Speaker 1: But she said, in more recent years, in light of

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Speaker 1: the Meet Too discussion, she's come to see that there

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Speaker 1: was a disparity in power, there was a disparity in age.

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Speaker 1: So she's still not sure what it all means, but

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Speaker 1: she said yes, she wasn't taken advantage of it was consensual,

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Speaker 1: but it was also an abuse of power.

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Speaker 2: Oh yeah.

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Speaker 1: So ironically, there's.

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Speaker 2: A lot of those young ladies that you'll see and

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Speaker 2: they'll say, well, I can handle myself, But years later

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Speaker 2: I said, well, no, actually I probably could.

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Speaker 1: She was completely abandoned. She was a single, twenty four

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Speaker 1: year old girl, abandoned by everyone except a family and friends, feminists, deserted, media, public.

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Speaker 1: Does everyone abandoned her? She was the villain, not the

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Speaker 1: fifty year old married man. And to the point where,

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Speaker 1: and I was talking about this with other women on

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Speaker 1: the night and my friends that how bad we feel

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Speaker 1: at every joke we've ever laughed at about the cigar,

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Speaker 1: and every time she's ever been reduced to just being

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Speaker 1: a footnote in history, and the image we had of her,

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Speaker 1: which was, as she says herself, this dumb fat bit

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Speaker 1: on the side. Because what no one, what we saw

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Speaker 1: on Saturday night was the true Monica, funny, feisty, sexy, smart, interesting.

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Speaker 1: She was reduced to a joke and a humiliated joke.

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Speaker 2: Did you say, if she had her time again, would

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Speaker 2: she like the no notoriety? So imagine the world where

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Speaker 2: there's no no one would know the name Monica Lewinsky.

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Speaker 1: She would love that. She spoke about. Lee asked her,

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Speaker 1: what were there certain moments where you thought your life

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Speaker 1: has changed now? And she talked about the day that

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Speaker 1: the ken Star report came out, this report because she'd

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Speaker 1: been she'd been set up by a so called friend

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Speaker 1: who's not a friend, Linda Tripp, who recorded all her conversations,

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Speaker 1: because she didn't approve that of Clinton having this relationship.

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Speaker 1: So Monica's life because Kelewinsky didn't go to she didn't

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Speaker 1: set out to entrap the president. She actually signed over.

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Speaker 2: The dress.

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Speaker 1: Well she didn't talk about that, but my feeling is

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Speaker 1: and that's what she said. She had to hold onto

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Speaker 1: the notion that it had been a relationship. I think

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Speaker 1: she was in love with this man, and that was

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Speaker 1: almost like a token of their love in a way.

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Speaker 1: It was never to entrap him. It was never to

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Speaker 1: make money out of him. It was almost like a

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Speaker 1: you know, you'd keep a hanky with his name on

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Speaker 1: it or something, Well, you know, I do. There was

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Speaker 1: nothing malicious in it, but she made the mistake of

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Speaker 1: telling Linda Tripp.

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Speaker 2: So she told Linda. She said I've got the blue dress,

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Speaker 2: as she said, you.

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Speaker 1: Know she's she said, I've had this relationship and she

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Speaker 1: told him about the dress, and Linda said, you need

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Speaker 1: to keep that as future insurance. And here's this young

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Speaker 1: twenty four years going. I don't know, why would I

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Speaker 1: want all that?

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Speaker 2: And Linda, for surely she would have kept it for

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Speaker 2: that reason.

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Speaker 1: Look, I can't answer for her. I don't know, but

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Speaker 1: Linda there when recorded all their conversations, Linda and trapped

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Speaker 1: her so the FBI could then come down and they

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Speaker 1: said to her, you we want you to wear a

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Speaker 1: wire and record conversations with the president, or you could

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Speaker 1: face twenty seven years in jail because you've lied under

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Speaker 1: oath that you weren't having a relationship. And she refused

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Speaker 1: to do it, and years of twenty four she refused

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Speaker 1: to do it. So this was a girl who was

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Speaker 1: abandoned by everyone, including the man she thought she was

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Speaker 1: in love with, just absolutely abandoned. And here we are

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Speaker 1: twenty years later, and a lot of people I know

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Speaker 1: want to say, I'm so sorry about you, how you've

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Speaker 1: been treated all these years. But she's a strong, powerful,

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Speaker 1: interesting woman and doing her thing to make everyone be

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Speaker 1: kinder to have a kinder Internet click with compassion. I

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Speaker 1: got an enormous amount out of watching her talk. It

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Speaker 1: was extraordinary. Jones, The and Amanda, good morning,