1 00:00:04,440 --> 00:00:06,800 Speaker 1: Welcome to How I Work, a show about the tactics 2 00:00:06,880 --> 00:00:08,959 Speaker 1: used by leading innovators to get so much out of 3 00:00:09,000 --> 00:00:11,720 Speaker 1: their day. I'm your host, doctor Amantha Imba. I'm an 4 00:00:11,800 --> 00:00:15,680 Speaker 1: organizational psychologist, the founder of innovation consultancy Inventium, and I'm 5 00:00:15,680 --> 00:00:19,040 Speaker 1: obsessed with finding ways to optimize my work date. This 6 00:00:19,200 --> 00:00:23,240 Speaker 1: episode is another my favorite tip episode titles probably pretty 7 00:00:23,239 --> 00:00:25,599 Speaker 1: self explanatory. It's about my favorite tip from each of 8 00:00:25,600 --> 00:00:28,280 Speaker 1: the interviews I conduct. So I use this format because 9 00:00:28,280 --> 00:00:30,720 Speaker 1: I sometimes feel myself as a podcast listener that I 10 00:00:30,720 --> 00:00:32,600 Speaker 1: just want to get in, get the most amount of 11 00:00:32,680 --> 00:00:35,680 Speaker 1: value from an episode, and then get out. So my 12 00:00:35,760 --> 00:00:39,440 Speaker 1: guest today is Adam Alter. Adam is an associate professor 13 00:00:39,440 --> 00:00:42,720 Speaker 1: of marketing at New York University's Stern School of Business. 14 00:00:43,200 --> 00:00:45,559 Speaker 1: Adam is the New York Times best selling author of 15 00:00:45,600 --> 00:00:49,240 Speaker 1: two books, Irresistible, which considers why so many people today 16 00:00:49,240 --> 00:00:53,080 Speaker 1: are addicted to so many behaviors from incessant smartphone and 17 00:00:53,159 --> 00:00:56,200 Speaker 1: internet use to video game playing and online shopping, and 18 00:00:56,320 --> 00:00:59,680 Speaker 1: Drunk Tank Pink, which investigates how hidden forces in the 19 00:00:59,720 --> 00:01:03,000 Speaker 1: world around us shape our thoughts, feelings, and behaviors. Adam 20 00:01:03,000 --> 00:01:05,040 Speaker 1: has also written for The New York Times, The New 21 00:01:05,080 --> 00:01:08,360 Speaker 1: York Or, The Washington Post, The Atlantics, Wired, Slate, huf Post, 22 00:01:08,440 --> 00:01:12,399 Speaker 1: and Popular Science, among other publications. In this extract of 23 00:01:12,440 --> 00:01:16,000 Speaker 1: our interview, we talk about goal setting and why Adam 24 00:01:16,160 --> 00:01:17,120 Speaker 1: is not a fan. 25 00:01:18,560 --> 00:01:20,640 Speaker 2: You know, I've thought a lot about goal setting and 26 00:01:20,800 --> 00:01:23,120 Speaker 2: about the nature of goals, and I've written a bit 27 00:01:23,160 --> 00:01:25,760 Speaker 2: about it as well. I think the concept of the 28 00:01:25,800 --> 00:01:29,160 Speaker 2: goal is useful because it obviously sets a signpost for you. 29 00:01:29,200 --> 00:01:31,920 Speaker 2: It tells you in which direction to point your efforts, 30 00:01:31,959 --> 00:01:35,200 Speaker 2: and you know your desires and whatever resources you have, 31 00:01:35,240 --> 00:01:36,920 Speaker 2: and so that's very useful. You need to know at 32 00:01:37,000 --> 00:01:39,080 Speaker 2: least that much in order to sort of function in 33 00:01:39,080 --> 00:01:41,720 Speaker 2: the world. I think there's an element of goal setting 34 00:01:41,720 --> 00:01:44,160 Speaker 2: that's a little bit broken for me, and it's inherently broken, 35 00:01:44,200 --> 00:01:46,640 Speaker 2: and it's this idea that a goal basically means that 36 00:01:46,760 --> 00:01:50,080 Speaker 2: until you reach the goal state, you're inherently failing. You're 37 00:01:50,120 --> 00:01:52,800 Speaker 2: in a failure state, and until you reach the goal state, 38 00:01:52,840 --> 00:01:55,520 Speaker 2: you're still failing, failing, failing, failing, until you reach the 39 00:01:55,520 --> 00:01:58,160 Speaker 2: goal and then you succeed. But the way humans work, 40 00:01:58,400 --> 00:02:01,680 Speaker 2: we tend to escalate when we achieve a goal. We 41 00:02:01,720 --> 00:02:03,880 Speaker 2: don't really rest on our laurels. We don't really get 42 00:02:03,920 --> 00:02:06,040 Speaker 2: much joy from achieving a goal. This is true about 43 00:02:06,080 --> 00:02:09,839 Speaker 2: small goals and big goals, and so goal setting. Where 44 00:02:09,880 --> 00:02:11,800 Speaker 2: you were in a failure state, then you reach success, 45 00:02:11,840 --> 00:02:13,680 Speaker 2: you don't get that much joy you set a new goal. 46 00:02:13,680 --> 00:02:17,079 Speaker 2: This sort of iterative process of goal setting failure state success, 47 00:02:17,160 --> 00:02:21,120 Speaker 2: failure state success. I think it's not all that fulfilling. 48 00:02:21,440 --> 00:02:23,600 Speaker 2: It's useful in a very grand sense to know what 49 00:02:23,639 --> 00:02:25,880 Speaker 2: you want, what you want to achieve, and so I 50 00:02:25,960 --> 00:02:27,480 Speaker 2: sort of try to sit down for a couple of 51 00:02:27,520 --> 00:02:30,320 Speaker 2: hours a month and really think about in which direction 52 00:02:30,360 --> 00:02:35,520 Speaker 2: I'm aiming whatever my time, my resources, my efforts. But 53 00:02:35,560 --> 00:02:38,040 Speaker 2: I try not to set goals. The alternative to goals 54 00:02:38,040 --> 00:02:40,240 Speaker 2: that I really like. This is something that Scott Adams 55 00:02:40,720 --> 00:02:44,960 Speaker 2: described is notice systems instead of goals, and a system 56 00:02:45,160 --> 00:02:47,840 Speaker 2: basically says that instead of saying, for example, my goal 57 00:02:47,919 --> 00:02:49,959 Speaker 2: is I want to write a hundred thousand words, let's 58 00:02:49,960 --> 00:02:53,000 Speaker 2: say that's your goal. Instead of doing that, you reframe 59 00:02:53,040 --> 00:02:55,040 Speaker 2: it and say, my system is that every morning, for 60 00:02:55,080 --> 00:02:57,080 Speaker 2: an hour, I'm going to write, and I'm going to 61 00:02:57,120 --> 00:03:00,760 Speaker 2: write five hundred words, and obviously eventually that's going to 62 00:03:00,800 --> 00:03:03,840 Speaker 2: amount to one hundred thousand words, but you don't think 63 00:03:03,880 --> 00:03:05,480 Speaker 2: of it that way. You think of it basically as 64 00:03:05,520 --> 00:03:08,080 Speaker 2: a system. This is my system for achieving that end state, 65 00:03:08,800 --> 00:03:12,640 Speaker 2: and so that each day you're reinforcing yourself with essentially 66 00:03:12,720 --> 00:03:16,040 Speaker 2: being able to achieve something and fulfilling what you set 67 00:03:16,040 --> 00:03:18,600 Speaker 2: for yourself with that system. And so I'll do that 68 00:03:18,639 --> 00:03:20,720 Speaker 2: sometimes where I'll say I'm going to write five hundred 69 00:03:20,840 --> 00:03:22,560 Speaker 2: words today, it's going to be in the first couple 70 00:03:22,600 --> 00:03:25,400 Speaker 2: of hours of the day. Of course, in a sense, 71 00:03:25,400 --> 00:03:27,560 Speaker 2: if you reframe it, that's a goal. But because it's 72 00:03:27,680 --> 00:03:29,679 Speaker 2: just a systematic way of approaching the world, you're not 73 00:03:29,720 --> 00:03:31,760 Speaker 2: going to be critical about what you're writing. You're just 74 00:03:31,800 --> 00:03:34,000 Speaker 2: going to sort of crank it out. It tends to 75 00:03:34,040 --> 00:03:35,960 Speaker 2: be a lot more fulfilling, and people feel much more 76 00:03:36,040 --> 00:03:38,920 Speaker 2: motivated by that than they do by long range goal setting. 77 00:03:39,680 --> 00:03:43,800 Speaker 1: So how then, like, let's just say you want to 78 00:03:43,840 --> 00:03:46,280 Speaker 1: work on a new book, Like, how what is the 79 00:03:46,400 --> 00:03:51,120 Speaker 1: language that you're then using? Because obviously the idea of 80 00:03:51,360 --> 00:03:54,480 Speaker 1: writing your next book, how can they not be your goal? Like, 81 00:03:54,640 --> 00:03:57,120 Speaker 1: because you know you'd have the goal to you know, 82 00:03:57,160 --> 00:03:58,800 Speaker 1: whether you work with the same publisher or get a 83 00:03:58,800 --> 00:04:02,360 Speaker 1: new publisher, that becomes a goal, then writing the actual 84 00:04:02,840 --> 00:04:07,080 Speaker 1: you know, sixty thousand word or however many word manuscript, Like, 85 00:04:07,160 --> 00:04:10,160 Speaker 1: how would you then frame that in your mind? And 86 00:04:10,160 --> 00:04:13,280 Speaker 1: how would you even make that decision without it not 87 00:04:13,360 --> 00:04:14,840 Speaker 1: being a goal? If that makes sense? 88 00:04:15,120 --> 00:04:17,520 Speaker 2: No, it makes total sense. Yeah, that's why I think 89 00:04:17,760 --> 00:04:21,880 Speaker 2: the goals are extremely useful as general sign posts. So 90 00:04:22,440 --> 00:04:24,440 Speaker 2: knowing that I want to have another book written in 91 00:04:24,480 --> 00:04:26,640 Speaker 2: four or five years or three years or whatever it 92 00:04:26,640 --> 00:04:28,839 Speaker 2: may be, that's essential. If you want to frame that 93 00:04:28,880 --> 00:04:31,359 Speaker 2: as a goal, that's totally fine. I think that makes sense. 94 00:04:32,320 --> 00:04:36,160 Speaker 2: Getting there and using the term goal as we generally 95 00:04:36,240 --> 00:04:38,160 Speaker 2: use it as a way of saying, I have this goal, 96 00:04:38,200 --> 00:04:39,560 Speaker 2: Now what am I going to do to get there? 97 00:04:39,880 --> 00:04:42,240 Speaker 2: I try not to use that way of thinking about 98 00:04:42,360 --> 00:04:46,120 Speaker 2: about that particular outcome that I'm trying to achieve. Instead, 99 00:04:46,120 --> 00:04:47,880 Speaker 2: I'll say, all right, let's look at this. So I 100 00:04:47,920 --> 00:04:49,680 Speaker 2: want to have a book written in Let's say I 101 00:04:49,720 --> 00:04:52,120 Speaker 2: sign a book contract and it's twenty four months, so 102 00:04:52,200 --> 00:04:55,200 Speaker 2: it's two years. How many words do I need to 103 00:04:55,240 --> 00:04:57,799 Speaker 2: have written? And when am I going to write those words? 104 00:04:58,040 --> 00:05:00,000 Speaker 2: And what's my system going to be for getting there? 105 00:05:00,880 --> 00:05:02,800 Speaker 2: So instead of making it this kind of very general 106 00:05:02,800 --> 00:05:05,400 Speaker 2: and generic long range goal. It becomes this daily thing 107 00:05:05,440 --> 00:05:08,000 Speaker 2: that I will be doing every day, and when you 108 00:05:08,040 --> 00:05:10,680 Speaker 2: add that up over time, that system produces the outcome 109 00:05:10,680 --> 00:05:14,159 Speaker 2: you're looking for. It's just not seen as this huge 110 00:05:14,240 --> 00:05:17,080 Speaker 2: kind of overarching goal. That means that until you reach that, 111 00:05:17,200 --> 00:05:20,400 Speaker 2: you're in that failure state. And I find that pretty helpful. 112 00:05:20,960 --> 00:05:23,560 Speaker 1: I think it's so interesting the idea around once you 113 00:05:23,600 --> 00:05:25,680 Speaker 1: set a goal you are in a failure state, that 114 00:05:25,839 --> 00:05:28,880 Speaker 1: that's so powerful. It's funny. I really struggle with with 115 00:05:29,000 --> 00:05:32,839 Speaker 1: goal setting myself. I remember that that kind of famous 116 00:05:33,000 --> 00:05:35,679 Speaker 1: article in HBO. I think it was called Goal's Gone 117 00:05:35,720 --> 00:05:38,200 Speaker 1: Wild or something like that that just talks about all 118 00:05:38,240 --> 00:05:41,760 Speaker 1: the problems with goal setting. But I found was, so 119 00:05:41,839 --> 00:05:44,640 Speaker 1: what do you do instead? And I do like that 120 00:05:44,720 --> 00:05:47,840 Speaker 1: idea of systems or even just you know, the goal 121 00:05:47,960 --> 00:05:51,320 Speaker 1: being this sign post, but I guess you know, more 122 00:05:51,360 --> 00:05:54,599 Speaker 1: focusing on the process or the systems of how you 123 00:05:54,640 --> 00:05:57,000 Speaker 1: know how you're going to get to that end state. 124 00:05:57,080 --> 00:05:58,760 Speaker 1: I think that's that's absolutely fascinating. 125 00:05:59,600 --> 00:06:02,520 Speaker 2: Yeah, I think that it's just basically backward engineers the 126 00:06:02,560 --> 00:06:07,599 Speaker 2: process just a little bit. And it's not that you 127 00:06:07,600 --> 00:06:09,400 Speaker 2: don't have goals or you don't have sign posts or 128 00:06:09,440 --> 00:06:11,320 Speaker 2: you don't have end states that you're trying to achieve, 129 00:06:11,440 --> 00:06:14,000 Speaker 2: And obviously that's a hallmark of goal setting. It's that 130 00:06:14,080 --> 00:06:16,640 Speaker 2: instead of treating it like, you know, I'm failing until 131 00:06:16,640 --> 00:06:19,040 Speaker 2: I reach that goal. Like let's say you want to 132 00:06:19,120 --> 00:06:20,880 Speaker 2: run a marathon, or you want to write a certain 133 00:06:20,920 --> 00:06:22,960 Speaker 2: number of words or whatever it is. Until you do that, 134 00:06:23,000 --> 00:06:27,000 Speaker 2: obviously you haven't succeeded. But it's saying to do that, 135 00:06:27,080 --> 00:06:29,200 Speaker 2: I would need to run this much each week, or 136 00:06:29,240 --> 00:06:31,000 Speaker 2: I'd need to write this much each week, And then, 137 00:06:31,440 --> 00:06:33,680 Speaker 2: because it's more bite sized, and because it's much more 138 00:06:33,680 --> 00:06:37,200 Speaker 2: sort of discrete, you can say each day is essentially 139 00:06:37,279 --> 00:06:39,640 Speaker 2: a sort of small success in the service of that 140 00:06:39,760 --> 00:06:42,440 Speaker 2: ultimate outcome, and it does seem to work for a 141 00:06:42,440 --> 00:06:43,040 Speaker 2: lot of people. 142 00:06:43,640 --> 00:06:46,600 Speaker 1: Hello me again. I hope this extract made you think 143 00:06:46,680 --> 00:06:50,200 Speaker 1: a bit differently about goal setting. It definitely changed the 144 00:06:50,240 --> 00:06:52,279 Speaker 1: way I view goals in my own life. And I 145 00:06:52,400 --> 00:06:54,560 Speaker 1: just love the idea that as soon as you set 146 00:06:54,560 --> 00:06:58,120 Speaker 1: a goal, you're in a failure state, which is so unmotivating, 147 00:06:58,520 --> 00:07:01,279 Speaker 1: and instead thinking about what is the daily habit that 148 00:07:01,320 --> 00:07:03,320 Speaker 1: you need to do in order to achieve the bigger 149 00:07:03,440 --> 00:07:06,600 Speaker 1: outcome At the end. So that's it for today. If 150 00:07:06,600 --> 00:07:09,680 Speaker 1: you like this excerpt, you might want to listen to 151 00:07:09,720 --> 00:07:11,640 Speaker 1: my full chat with Adam, which I linked to in 152 00:07:11,680 --> 00:07:13,720 Speaker 1: the show notes. And if you're enjoying how I work, 153 00:07:14,200 --> 00:07:15,960 Speaker 1: why not take five seconds to leave a review in 154 00:07:16,000 --> 00:07:19,320 Speaker 1: Apple Podcasts or wherever you listen to this Leaving reviews 155 00:07:19,320 --> 00:07:22,040 Speaker 1: makes it much easier for other people to find this podcast, 156 00:07:22,120 --> 00:07:25,320 Speaker 1: And thank you to everybody who has left five star 157 00:07:25,360 --> 00:07:27,880 Speaker 1: reviews and written some lovely words. It truly does make 158 00:07:28,000 --> 00:07:30,120 Speaker 1: my day. So that's it for today and I'll see 159 00:07:30,160 --> 00:07:30,920 Speaker 1: you next time.