Speaker 1: Daniel Flynn doesn't see the world the same way most
Speaker 1: people do. Sure, he's as sickened as anyone else by
Speaker 1: the amount of plastic water bottles we buy as consumers,
Speaker 1: But instead of bemoaning that fact or even trying to
Speaker 1: stop it from happening, he decided to leave Ridget for good.
Speaker 1: As the co founder of thank You, He's on a
Speaker 1: mission to make products that will end poverty, to direct
Speaker 1: our consumerist habits to a better cause, and his company's
Speaker 1: profits to people who really need help. But how does
Speaker 1: a company founded on ambitious, people centered ideas operate when
Speaker 1: everyone starts working from home? And how does Daniel make
Speaker 1: time to keep dreaming up these big ideas instead of
Speaker 1: getting stuck in the weeds of day to day operations.
Speaker 1: My name is doctor amanthe Imbat. I'm an organizational psychogist
Speaker 1: and the founder of behavioral science consultancy Inventium. And this
Speaker 1: is how I work, a show about how to help
Speaker 1: you do your best work. Thank You. Daniel's company was
Speaker 1: early on the remote work bandwagon. They became remote first
Speaker 1: back in twenty eighteen, much to Daniel's resistance.
Speaker 2: I was the office guy, Like it was all about
Speaker 2: the office the culture, the vibe in the office, and
Speaker 2: I met people that worked remote and I'd laugh, I
Speaker 2: think you've just missed it. So it was a big
Speaker 2: thing in twenty eighteen for me my other co founder, Justine,
Speaker 2: we're also married. And then a bunch of us were
Speaker 2: working on all about global expansion and future direction of
Speaker 2: the business. We went to a remote working setup and
Speaker 2: I thought this is going to be terrible, but it wasn't.
Speaker 2: We found ways to make it remarkable and actually, on reflection,
Speaker 2: it was like, this shoe fits the future of thank
Speaker 2: you and the future of work for us. And it
Speaker 2: was a journey to take the rest of the team on. Hey,
Speaker 2: let's get to a trial of sort of half half
Speaker 2: half in the office, half from home. And by the
Speaker 2: time we got everyone on board with that, our first
Speaker 2: week of trial for the part remote working ended up
Speaker 2: being the first week of lockdown for the pandemic in Melbourne,
Speaker 2: and so it was five days from home, you know, wow,
Speaker 2: from day one. Yeah, And we were weirdly prepared, at
Speaker 2: least at a leadership level. We were ready for something.
Speaker 2: Certainly no one knew what was coming, but it helped
Speaker 2: get the rest of the team on board.
Speaker 1: So given how important you think the office culture was
Speaker 1: or is, how have you fostered that same culture when
Speaker 1: everyone works from different locations?
Speaker 2: Okay, so for us working remote and fully flexible, there's
Speaker 2: an interesting piece of the puzzle that I think without it,
Speaker 2: the whole thing falls apart. So we haven't gone into
Speaker 2: this going how do we save money on rent? You know,
Speaker 2: all the office expenses, which which add up. I mean,
Speaker 2: even if you think it's just rent, which we did
Speaker 2: at one point, when you truly critically look at office expenses,
Speaker 2: it adds up. And then you add on top of
Speaker 2: it the time expense when you realize that everyone is investing.
Speaker 2: Some of us are investing ten hours a week just
Speaker 2: to turn up at that place. Right, So it's actually
Speaker 2: a huge investment to pull it off, and there's a
Speaker 2: huge cost. We haven't necessarily gone how do we save money?
Speaker 2: Absolutely time that time saving back into people this week
Speaker 2: is great. But one of the things we do in
Speaker 2: our model is every eight weeks we come together as
Speaker 2: a team. And so that means if you're inter state,
Speaker 2: you fly into Melbourne, where i'd say about sixty to
Speaker 2: seventy percent of our team still reside, and we're fly
Speaker 2: in and we have a team day, and on that
Speaker 2: team day, it is there are no kind of awkward
Speaker 2: team building exercises. We try and avoid them. We don't
Speaker 2: have like here's a bunch of content we're going to
Speaker 2: throw at you, because you can't just come and hang
Speaker 2: out for a day, can you, like, so we've actually
Speaker 2: gone all in on hanging out and so we come together.
Speaker 2: It is social. We see it as mission critical, so
Speaker 2: you know, it is it is kind of mandatory. I mean,
Speaker 2: you don't you know, if you can't make it, you
Speaker 2: can't make it. But we really encourage people to be
Speaker 2: at it as if it was the annual strategy day,
Speaker 2: and we do that so we'll have a kickoff for
Speaker 2: the year here as where we're heading super strategic deep
Speaker 2: into the detail of the work. But every other day
Speaker 2: the goal is that it's time to connect, and so
Speaker 2: we go all in on connection and so we have fun,
Speaker 2: We have lunches and you know, we we different activities.
Speaker 2: You know, sometimes I tell friends are like, what you're allowed,
Speaker 2: you can't do that, that's not what you're not working.
Speaker 2: It's like, no, we're not, we're not working. But we
Speaker 2: like I can't think of and different friendship groups maybe different,
Speaker 2: but I can't think of a group of friends where
Speaker 2: I spend ten you know, and it depends on the year,
Speaker 2: but between eight and ten full days just hanging out,
Speaker 2: I can't think of that. And that's what we have
Speaker 2: and it fosters deeper and greater relationships and that helps
Speaker 2: us when you are on Zoom or on teams and
Speaker 2: you know, you don't have that in depth connection that
Speaker 2: you do get in an office. So that's the other
Speaker 2: half of what we do and it really helps.
Speaker 1: So if I was a member of the Thank You
Speaker 1: Team and I attended one of these connection days, what
Speaker 1: are some of the things and activities that I could
Speaker 1: expect to experience?
Speaker 2: A great question. I mean they're all different. We try
Speaker 2: and keep them different from like you know, Oh okay,
Speaker 2: So our head of creative and marketing and Comms is
Speaker 2: based in New Zealand, and so in New Zealand, they
Speaker 2: don't have the Morning ten pinanential hot springs. I mean,
Speaker 2: they have a few art springs. But so this particular
Speaker 2: team day we're having, we were starting at one of
Speaker 2: the team's parents' house. We had a big breakfast there.
Speaker 2: They've got a beautiful view of the ocean. Then we
Speaker 2: headed down to the Hot Springs and we spent the
Speaker 2: day just relaxing there. And Ellie from New Zealand, she's like,
Speaker 2: so it's kind of like a bath, like a hot bar.
Speaker 2: We just all sit in it. And as I described,
Speaker 2: I'm like, gosh, it does sound a bit weird, but
Speaker 2: when you get to the Hot Springs, it's not that weird.
Speaker 2: And it was super relaxing. And then there was sort
Speaker 2: of an opt in dinner if anyone wanted to go
Speaker 2: to that night, and most people just hung around, like
Speaker 2: genuinely just wanted to connect further. That was, you know,
Speaker 2: one day, you know, other days we look for an
Speaker 2: activity to do together. You know, I don't think any
Speaker 2: of our team will be listening to this, but next
Speaker 2: week where some of our creative team are taking us
Speaker 2: all through kind of like a art paint session, a
Speaker 2: whole bunch of cool activities which will make all non
Speaker 2: creative people a little uncomfortable, but we will have a
Speaker 2: good few laughs and then and I think it's a
Speaker 2: pretty good lunch lined up. We genuinely are trying to
Speaker 2: create space for longer conversations. I think the office is
Speaker 2: good for the Hey, Hey, Hey, you good. I'm good. Yeah,
Speaker 2: I'm good. Are you good? Mama again, I'm okay. But
Speaker 2: what the office isn't necessarily grateful is those deeper, longer
Speaker 2: format conversations that come when you're walking together somewhere, you know,
Speaker 2: through the bush, or you're sitting by a beach, or
Speaker 2: you're you know, at a luncheon an informal setting. And
Speaker 2: so we are trying to create those and think about them,
Speaker 2: and we're testing and learning and taking feedback. And thankfully
Speaker 2: we haven't missed yet on any of our team days.
Speaker 2: But if we do have some missions, we'll refine and
Speaker 2: find better ways forward.
Speaker 1: Now I've heard that's something that you have changed over
Speaker 1: the years about how you work is being more protective
Speaker 1: of your time and perhaps getting better at saying no.
Speaker 1: And I'd love to know how have you got better
Speaker 1: at saying no?
Speaker 2: Wow? Look, I still find it hard. You know. There
Speaker 2: was a time where I would just say I was
Speaker 2: a yes man, yes to everyone and everything. And actually
Speaker 2: the deeper work I did with a counselor and psychologist,
Speaker 2: which is a big story in and of itself, but
Speaker 2: partly because I was the guy that was never going
Speaker 2: to do that because I'm not broken and I don't
Speaker 2: need that. But I'm so glad I did the work
Speaker 2: and went deep because actually in me, so it turns out,
Speaker 2: which was probably obvious to my friends around me, but
Speaker 2: one of the things I've struggled with is a fear
Speaker 2: of rejection, like people rejecting me. And as I understood that,
Speaker 2: it was like, wow, so it's not just that I
Speaker 2: say yes to everything's there's a deeper part of me
Speaker 2: that's trying to like, you know, not be rejected and
Speaker 2: be accepted by people. And oh man, so I actually
Speaker 2: had to do some pretty deep work on like but
Speaker 2: why do I say yes? And why do I struggle
Speaker 2: so much with saying no? And on realizing that, coupled
Speaker 2: with a mentor said to me, Daniel, every time you
Speaker 2: say yes to something, you are saying no to something, now,
Speaker 2: he goes. When you commit to that next talk or
Speaker 2: you commit to that next project, you know, do you
Speaker 2: pick up the phone to your wife and your bartner
Speaker 2: and say, hey, Justine, just want you to know I
Speaker 2: want to say no to spending time with you because
Speaker 2: I'm saying yes to this other thing because you don't
Speaker 2: do that, and I don't. I don't do that, and
Speaker 2: I never did that, but some of these realizations of well,
Speaker 2: that's actually the trade off here, when you are over committing,
Speaker 2: you are actually kind of forsaking some of the stuff
Speaker 2: that you would and I would say is the most
Speaker 2: important thing. So, in answer to your question, how to
Speaker 2: get better at saying no, it started with some pretty
Speaker 2: deep work and realizations and then a resolve that no
Speaker 2: is one of the most important words I can say,
Speaker 2: and I need to be careful when and how I
Speaker 2: say it, but it's one of the most valuable things
Speaker 2: to protecting myself, my family and the vision that we're
Speaker 2: ultimately fighting for. And one of the great challenges in
Speaker 2: business and entrepreneur organizations is you just tend to see
Speaker 2: opportunities and want to chase them all. But every great
Speaker 2: innovation and great breakthrough came from hyper focus, and that
Speaker 2: hyper focus is essentially the ability to say a lot
Speaker 2: of no's. And our history is marked with some pretty
Speaker 2: big launchers and some pretty cool successful things. But I
Speaker 2: look back and I'm like, yeah, but we said no
Speaker 2: to so many other things to chase that one. Yes,
Speaker 2: So I think it's a mindset, it's a culture, and
Speaker 2: then it's an accountability like you've got to build a
Speaker 2: team and mentors and kind of people around you who
Speaker 2: are willing to challenge you on your schedule and what
Speaker 2: it looks like.
Speaker 1: So for you personally, have you developed like heuristics or
Speaker 1: rules to help you make quicker decisions on what to
Speaker 1: say yes to? Is no too?
Speaker 2: Yes? Yeah? I have? And what are they? Well? So good, Look,
Speaker 2: I'll give you. I'll give you a few big ones,
Speaker 2: you know, And I think this is helpful because otherwise
Speaker 2: you end up on a case by case basis and
Speaker 2: it's so stressful. So we have different matrix for different things. So,
Speaker 2: for example, events and speaking at events, I do a
Speaker 2: lot of speaking, but it's probably one to every Look.
Speaker 2: I don't just want to say a big number to
Speaker 2: sound good. There's just a lot of inquiries. There's a
Speaker 2: lot of like could you be here? Could you be here?
Speaker 2: Could you be here? And so we've kind of worked
Speaker 2: out a matrix that's not perfect, but it helps us
Speaker 2: sort through what are the events we think we should
Speaker 2: be at and why. And I'd say that has ebbed
Speaker 2: and flowed based on our business and personal objectives over
Speaker 2: the years. And so that one's an interesting kind of
Speaker 2: moving target, but it exists, and then we have a
Speaker 2: team who look through it. And then ultimately, if it's
Speaker 2: kind of an on theline decision, I'll probably get to
Speaker 2: look at it and say yeah, actually let's go, or
Speaker 2: it's a no go on that one.
Speaker 1: What are some examples can I ask of what's in
Speaker 1: that matrix?
Speaker 2: So look, it depends on time. So how much time
Speaker 2: am I putting towards the external so speaking? And so
Speaker 2: there's been some seasons if I look back at twenty
Speaker 2: eighteen and nineteen, where it was basically, no, I'm pulling back.
Speaker 2: We have a lot of work to do internally. Once
Speaker 2: we get that right and we're comfortable, then we can
Speaker 2: go external again. So there was a season where the
Speaker 2: only talks that would come through would be something that's
Speaker 2: like a world forum or an industry forum. I think
Speaker 2: in twenty nineteen there were four talks that got through
Speaker 2: the gate, which in prior, if I went back to
Speaker 2: seventeen and sixteen, I was doing one hundred and fifty talks,
Speaker 2: and that was yeah, we were launching that, we were
Speaker 2: launch books, and the book thing was going crazy, and
Speaker 2: I was saying yes to so much and actually they
Speaker 2: were the years that kind of okay, we're goin, We're
Speaker 2: got to rain this in a bit, because yes, you
Speaker 2: can do it, you can do anything. You can do anything,
Speaker 2: you just can't do everything. And so yes, we were
Speaker 2: getting some big wins externally, but then some of the
Speaker 2: internal work, which is part of what I bring to
Speaker 2: the table, was it wasn't going as well as it
Speaker 2: should have could have been, and you know, and so
Speaker 2: then we dialed that back. I think twenty nineteen those
Speaker 2: four talks is an interesting one and maybe someone in
Speaker 2: our teams, like you did six, so it's somewhere there.
Speaker 2: But there was only a couple of big ones. But
Speaker 2: each of them work global forums. They were really unique
Speaker 2: opportunities almost arguably once in a lifetime. One of them
Speaker 2: is like twenty thousand people in the room in Germany
Speaker 2: from one hundred and sixty countries, and you know, it's
Speaker 2: hard to have a matrix that doesn't say yes. So
Speaker 2: that one, particularly when you're thinking, we are thinking about
Speaker 2: global expansion and so that was, you know, really critical
Speaker 2: for that. So look, that's some of how how I
Speaker 2: do that. I think on a week to week level,
Speaker 2: there's some really interesting kind of rules in place that
Speaker 2: and you know, very strong guidelines that have helped. And
Speaker 2: one of those is every week I have a Blue
Speaker 2: Sky Day. And that's just a name. I kind of
Speaker 2: threw on having it one full day that's blocked out,
Speaker 2: so there are no meetings. I don't check emails or slack,
Speaker 2: I don't get I don't answer calls unless it's from
Speaker 2: a particular team member and I know, like, okay, we've
Speaker 2: really got a problem. I have to answer that call.
Speaker 2: But that's actually about trying to create space to work
Speaker 2: on thank you, and not just in it. You know
Speaker 2: some I mean, this is this is for me if
Speaker 2: you want to know practically what it looks like. I
Speaker 2: was inspired by a guy who he ran thirty companies,
Speaker 2: and I was like, what the thirty company? I can't
Speaker 2: barely do one? Like what are you talking about? And
Speaker 2: I was trying to dig into, like how do you
Speaker 2: do it? And he has a day a week completely free,
Speaker 2: and for him, I'm like, what do you do? He's like, well,
Speaker 2: I get on my jet ski and I go out
Speaker 2: to this island. I was like, okay, okay, yeah, like
Speaker 2: we'd all do that if we had a jet ski
Speaker 2: and an island, we could go to. But he was
Speaker 2: saying that for him, unless he has time to for him,
Speaker 2: it was quite a personal day. Like it was quite
Speaker 2: he had meditation and prayer and he had time of
Speaker 2: like problem solving and ideation. And look, I thought it
Speaker 2: sounded a little spooky but kind of cool. I ended
Speaker 2: up climbing a mountain one day to the day off
Speaker 2: in my head it wasn't really work and I climb
Speaker 2: a mountain and it's like I felt like I unlocked
Speaker 2: a secret, a secret that the shoe fits for me.
Speaker 2: So I aim for a day a week now. In
Speaker 2: practice I think fortnightly it's it's a full day, and
Speaker 2: on the other week it can end up being about
Speaker 2: a half day. I try and get out. So Upper
Speaker 2: Mountain for me, outdoors works and I get out from
Speaker 2: the day to day grind. And for me, this is
Speaker 2: a space to dream. It's a space to write. Sometimes
Speaker 2: I like I write out my thoughts and like dear diary,
Speaker 2: I quit, you know, like I quit. I hate this.
Speaker 2: I just hate it. I can't right. So it's not
Speaker 2: it's not beautiful. It's a very raw. But then other
Speaker 2: days I'm like ah, and an idea will drop and
Speaker 2: in that moment, it's the idea is perfect, and then
Speaker 2: you come back to the real world and it's not perfect,
Speaker 2: or actually come back to the real world and with
Speaker 2: a bit of refinement, it is that next breakthrough step forward.
Speaker 2: Sometimes I write on those days and write content and
Speaker 2: you know, catch up with a mentor you know, either
Speaker 2: digitally or in person, and try and get out of
Speaker 2: the bubble of thank you just get a different perspective.
Speaker 2: And these days have become so valuable that when people
Speaker 2: are like, oh, I don't know, but you're very busy,
Speaker 2: how do you justify it? And now I'm like, well, yeah,
Speaker 2: it's hard to explain, but once you've put in a
Speaker 2: rhythm and a practice, it's easy to say, I don't
Speaker 2: think I could do what I do without it, because
Speaker 2: everyone wants to know, man, how do you cope with
Speaker 2: the challenges of BAU and dream and think about the future.
Speaker 2: It's like, well, I create time for it, and there's
Speaker 2: like a rule, you know, and that's when I switch
Speaker 2: my headspace and I find it really hard to do
Speaker 2: every week and the night before I literally cancel nearly.
Speaker 2: I'm like, I just know there's so much going on
Speaker 2: in the factory, in this and supply chain. But it's
Speaker 2: become a commitment and I have done seasons where I've
Speaker 2: skipped it. I'm like that stuff, it's stupid, it doesn't work.
Speaker 2: And I've seen myself as a leader kind of crumble.
Speaker 2: I think for me, this is the shoe fits and
Speaker 2: everyone needs to figure out what works for them. But
Speaker 2: there is nothing like creative creating space.
Speaker 1: Yeah, so on these blue sky days, are there certain
Speaker 1: questions that you've found helpful to pose to yourself for
Speaker 1: certain processes that you go through, you know, aside from
Speaker 1: trying to get out in nature and be removed from
Speaker 1: digital distractions.
Speaker 2: So look, I one of the things I do pretty
Speaker 2: regularly is I pick up I have kind of this
Speaker 2: master timeline, which is the big rocks where are we heading?
Speaker 2: And I look at it and I review it, and
Speaker 2: I go, Okay, are we focusing on the right things?
Speaker 2: You know? Are we on track? And I'm not. This
Speaker 2: is not a super deep dive into the detail, but
Speaker 2: you know, it is helpful to zoom out because we're
Speaker 2: pretty ambitious. So we've got a lot of big projects.
Speaker 2: But then, like any ambitious project, you can you can
Speaker 2: almost die or get lost in the detail and so
Speaker 2: you know, four days a week I'm in the detail,
Speaker 2: and sometimes you don't know which way is up, and
Speaker 2: so I find that really helpful to zoom out. I
Speaker 2: also find a blank piece of paper very helpful. One
Speaker 2: of the activities I did it this week is I
Speaker 2: wrote a list between now and the end of the
Speaker 2: year for all the things I think are really important
Speaker 2: to be done. Now. I've already got less, I've got
Speaker 2: a sign a less, I've got lists on less. There
Speaker 2: are like, arguably, I don't need to do this, it's
Speaker 2: already there. But I find it personally, the blank piece
Speaker 2: of paper. It can be at times quite daunting, but
Speaker 2: it's also full of opportunity. And so by writing out
Speaker 2: that list, I sat back and I would have spent
Speaker 2: an hour and it. You know, if you look at
Speaker 2: the list, that took me an hour. No, it was
Speaker 2: the consideration, it was the wondering, it was the is
Speaker 2: that really important? And by the end of us really
Speaker 2: I really I thought, Wow, that's I get that done.
Speaker 2: That's really that's really really remarkable, And I think and
Speaker 2: then I compared it to the list of everything we're
Speaker 2: doing in the detail. Later I was like, yep, cool,
Speaker 2: I haven't missed anything, but I actually there's a whole
Speaker 2: bunch of stuff that I wonder is it really important?
Speaker 2: And can we push that further down the track? And
Speaker 2: I think in the early days I would never do this,
Speaker 2: And so the result of that was an organization and
Speaker 2: a team stressed out of their mind because everyone's trying
Speaker 2: to achieve so many different things and everything's a priority,
Speaker 2: and there wasn't enough work from me in prioritization of projects.
Speaker 2: But there was a lot of vision and a lot
Speaker 2: of here's where we're going, here's how exciting everything is,
Speaker 2: and naturally everyone wanted to do that, and so so yeah,
Speaker 2: look that that is something that I do, and then
Speaker 2: I encourage leaders and manages to do it too in
Speaker 2: their own projects that they're running the things that they're across,
Speaker 2: you know, And so that's you know, one of the practices.
Speaker 1: We will be back with Daniel soon talking about the
Speaker 1: mentors in his life and how he aims to get
Speaker 1: the most out of the sessions with those mentors. If
Speaker 1: you're looking for more tips to improve the way that
Speaker 1: you work, I write a short fortnightly newsletter that contains
Speaker 1: three cool things that I've discovered that helped me work better,
Speaker 1: ranging from software and gadgets that I'm loving through to
Speaker 1: interesting research findings. You can sign up for that at
Speaker 1: Howiwork dot cod That's how I work dot co. I
Speaker 1: know that you're a big believer in the power of mentoring,
Speaker 1: and I believe you've got one one main mentor that
Speaker 1: you speak with pretty regularly. Is that right?
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, Look, I do believe in mentoring. You know,
Speaker 2: it is it's like time travel. I mean it is like,
Speaker 2: you know, you sit down someone for lunch or coffee,
Speaker 2: they tell you one thing and you're like, oh, thank you,
Speaker 2: But that could have been a decade for them in
Speaker 2: learning or a lifetime and I think if we truly
Speaker 2: understand the weight of that, And actually that's the hardest thing.
Speaker 2: If you're being mentored or you're listening to someone, they'll
Speaker 2: say a flippant statement, there's a lifetime's revelation you because
Speaker 2: you haven't lived it could be like, oh, yeah, sounds interesting,
Speaker 2: And I think for me it's like trying to wade
Speaker 2: through my initial reaction to like, what's that person's lived experience.
Speaker 2: Why are they're saying that, you know, can that apply
Speaker 2: to me? So it's like time travel. I think it's
Speaker 2: I think it's it's it's incredible. So that's part one.
Speaker 2: Look over the years, I've had different mentoring relationships. There's
Speaker 2: definitely been one who's been you know, buying the scenes,
Speaker 2: very very constant, private and my favorite conversations that we've
Speaker 2: had over the year years is and he kind of
Speaker 2: makes a note of saying, Daniel, I'm not I'm not like,
Speaker 2: I'm not here for thank you, and I'm not here
Speaker 2: for what you achieves. This is about you and I
Speaker 2: just I believe in you. And and he's got incredible
Speaker 2: business background I'm really grateful for it provides technical support,
Speaker 2: but really a lot of it is that that emotional encouragement,
Speaker 2: the challenging different perspectives. I think if you interviewed him,
Speaker 2: he'd be like, oh no, I'm not sure why we
Speaker 2: catch up. I don't see what the you know, the
Speaker 2: value is because he's a very humble man. But even
Speaker 2: that humility, I've learned a lot from my dad as well.
Speaker 2: Whilst you know he doesn't run, you know what we
Speaker 2: do and it's it's it's less about you know, some
Speaker 2: of the technical side. I think I've really realized the
Speaker 2: value of the soft stuff and the encouragement and the
Speaker 2: challenging of that, and you know that's been valuable. And
Speaker 2: then you've got to balance it up with some technical advisors,
Speaker 2: to which have epped and flowed with the over the years.
Speaker 1: How do you prepare for a session with a mentor
Speaker 1: to get the most out of it?
Speaker 2: This? Look, this is a good question, and I will
Speaker 2: put my hand up to say that I am high
Speaker 2: on the spontaneous side, as I said earlier, and so
Speaker 2: I sometimes have this moment ten minutes in going Danielle,
Speaker 2: come on, you should have, like you should have forbat,
Speaker 2: a list of questions I have over the years built
Speaker 2: to an approach where I'll go in with a commitment
Speaker 2: to be transparent and to share where I'm really at
Speaker 2: and to share the stuff that's really weighing me down.
Speaker 2: That's hot, that sounds good. You know, Vulnerability is always
Speaker 2: an interesting thing because you know there can be an
Speaker 2: insecurity of like, oh gosh. But then if you always
Speaker 2: are letting someone in on the heavy stuff or your
Speaker 2: your worst stuff or the biggest challenges your time five
Speaker 2: catch ups, seem they're gonna think this is too much.
Speaker 2: I've got to get out and so so you know
Speaker 2: an answer. So then there's a there's a sense of
Speaker 2: or do I just put up a good front, but
Speaker 2: I wanted to get the most out. I'm wanting to
Speaker 2: be transparent about Hey, we've only got a few minutes.
Speaker 2: What's your perspective on this stuff? I'm truly really wrestling
Speaker 2: with So that's one of the things. And then the
Speaker 2: other thing is I'm always curious of people's story and
Speaker 2: why and what they learn and their experiences. And I'm
Speaker 2: a I just love stories, and so I have asked,
Speaker 2: you know, questions and what happened then, and you know back,
Speaker 2: you know, when you're balancing family and you were going
Speaker 2: public at the same time, Like, tell me more about that,
Speaker 2: and you know, I listen and I feel like I learn.
Speaker 2: And so that's my approach. It's a vulnerability. Curiosity brought
Speaker 2: my two leads going in.
Speaker 1: I imagine that you have also played the role of mentor,
Speaker 1: like officially or officially to many people over the years.
Speaker 1: What's some of the advice that you found yourself sharing
Speaker 1: most often?
Speaker 2: The one thing I've shared, which which took me a
Speaker 2: while to figure out, was like, good, good job putting
Speaker 2: your hand up for this seeking out advice, right, wanting
Speaker 2: to be mentored, that's awesome, But you need to search
Speaker 2: for the gold from any mentoring type or advisory type scenario.
Speaker 2: So search for the gold. And I think in gold
Speaker 2: mining there's the dirt to gold ratio is interesting. And
Speaker 2: even though I would like to propose, yeah, look everything
Speaker 2: I drop is gold, it's not, and it's certainly not
Speaker 2: gold for that person I had these. Really there's two
Speaker 2: mentals I had at one particular point in the journey,
Speaker 2: and I never forget that the deeply uncomfortable feeling of
Speaker 2: taking one challenge and one thought to both of them separately,
Speaker 2: and they both had the exact opposite advice and they
Speaker 2: were both, in their own right incredible people history. And
Speaker 2: I was so stressed, and that there probably speaks to
Speaker 2: the fear of rejection thing, but like I was, so,
Speaker 2: I'm like no, like, how could this be happening? And
Speaker 2: it wasn't until I kind of stepped back and you know,
Speaker 2: had some other advice around this where and actually a
Speaker 2: mentor did say, is it you cannot cut and paste
Speaker 2: everything you hear because this is someone else's experience, their journey.
Speaker 2: You are on your own path. You are on your
Speaker 2: own journey, And as a rule, I would say to
Speaker 2: someone you're looking for the ten to twenty percent of gold,
Speaker 2: you don't have to apply one hundred percent of what
Speaker 2: you hear. Now, that is really tough when there is
Speaker 2: power and balance is not the right term, but there's
Speaker 2: certainly usually an experience in balance, Like, you know, how
Speaker 2: could I sit with someone who's run a company, grown
Speaker 2: it to billions of dollars, tens of thousands of staff
Speaker 2: and not apply what they're saying like that. It feels
Speaker 2: arrogant or disrespectful, But it's looking for the thread that
Speaker 2: applies to what you do and being okay to leave
Speaker 2: some things on the table. And so I think that
Speaker 2: takes great wisdom and humility of someone listening, because you
Speaker 2: have to be okay to catch up with that mentor
Speaker 2: and be like, yeah, so look, I didn't. I didn't
Speaker 2: go that way. And actually there was one time I
Speaker 2: caught up with a mentor years ago. We caught up.
Speaker 2: I left that catch up, and I so didn't like
Speaker 2: the advice that I in my mind, I was like,
Speaker 2: I'm never catching up with that person again. And that's
Speaker 2: very rude to say out loud, but I was just ticked.
Speaker 2: I was like, you don't you don't get it, you
Speaker 2: don't get it. I caught up with that person about
Speaker 2: a year later, and I confessed, I said, hey, last
Speaker 2: time we caught up, I said, I never want to
Speaker 2: catch up with you again. And I know I've sort
Speaker 2: of been quiet, but I yeah, I went. I went
Speaker 2: sort of the opposite to your advice, and it didn't
Speaker 2: work out, and you were right and I was really wrong.
Speaker 2: And that was a really interesting journey in and of itself.
Speaker 2: And I would just encourage, you know, encourage people like
Speaker 2: it's what I did wrong. Then I probably needed to
Speaker 2: learn some stuff. I probably needed some very good humbling
Speaker 2: as a young leader. But what I should have done
Speaker 2: is stayed in contact over that year and actually gone
Speaker 2: that journey of you know how I'm going a different way.
Speaker 2: Can we walk this out together, you know? And so
Speaker 2: anyway I'm going down a rabbit one. Now.
Speaker 3: That's a great lesson to learn, though, Daniel.
Speaker 1: Now, for people that want to connect with you or
Speaker 1: thank you or both, what is the best way for listeners.
Speaker 3: To do that?
Speaker 2: Oh, such a good question. I mean, thank you is
Speaker 2: that you know website thank you dot co. You'll learn
Speaker 2: heaps more follow us on all our social channels. Thank you,
Speaker 2: oz on, Instagram, Facebook, kind of everything, LinkedIn connecting with
Speaker 2: me apologizes if it seems hard to anyone, I have
Speaker 2: spent the last year off socials and that has been
Speaker 2: an experiment of great joy and challenge, if I'm honest,
Speaker 2: But it's been about trying to cut out a whole
Speaker 2: bunch of digital distraction and deep work. And anyway, I'm
Speaker 2: not resolved yet on exactly what we're going to do
Speaker 2: with the whole challenge we have with social and also
Speaker 2: still being connected and relevant. So I'm a little hard
Speaker 2: to get hold of. But you know on LinkedIn, you
Speaker 2: know I do eventually eventually get there if you're interested.
Speaker 3: But yeah, well, Daniel, I have loved this chat, and
Speaker 3: I'm deeply appreciative that you said yes to the interview
Speaker 3: when I asked, so thank you for being wonderful and
Speaker 3: sharing so many gems of wisdom.
Speaker 2: Hey, thanks so much, Amantha appreciate it.
Speaker 1: Gosh, I find Daniel's enthusiasm can tageous. One of the
Speaker 1: things I took away from our chat is about gold mining.
Speaker 1: When you sit down with a mentor. I've mentioned on
Speaker 1: the show that I have a couple of peer mentoring groups,
Speaker 1: both of whom I love very much.
Speaker 2: But it's really only five.
Speaker 1: Percent of what gets said in our three ish hour
Speaker 1: catchups that I go away and implement or that fundamentally
Speaker 1: changes my thinking about something that I'm working through in
Speaker 1: my life. Daniel highlighting this in our chat made me
Speaker 1: more confident in going it's okay. I'm not being lazy
Speaker 1: or missing a whole bunch of stuff. It is okay
Speaker 1: if it's only five to ten percent, that is the
Speaker 1: stuff that changes me. How I Work is produced by
Speaker 1: Inventing with production support from Dead Set Studios. The producer
Speaker 1: for this episode was Liam Riordan, and thank you to
Speaker 1: Matt Nimba, who does the audio mix for every episode
Speaker 1: and makes everything sound so much better than it would
Speaker 1: have otherwise. See you next time.