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Speaker 1: Already and this is the Daily OS.

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Speaker 2: This is the Daily ohs oh, now it makes sense.

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Speaker 3: Good morning and welcome to the Daily OS. It's Thursday,

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Speaker 3: the thirty first of July. I'm Emma Gillespie.

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Speaker 2: I'm Billy FitzSimons.

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Speaker 3: The Federal government has confirmed that YouTube will be included

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Speaker 3: in its social media ban for children under sixteen. The

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Speaker 3: video streaming platform was originally going to be exempt from

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Speaker 3: the ban, but following mounting pressure from Australia's e Safety Commissioner,

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Speaker 3: the government has changed its mind. The move's drawn criticism

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Speaker 3: from the opposition, while YouTube's parent company Google is reportedly

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Speaker 3: considering legal action against the government over the decision.

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Speaker 2: We'll take you through the latest on the social media

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Speaker 2: ban and discuss whether Google's threat of legal action could succeed.

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Speaker 2: Right after a quick message from our sponsor, so M

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Speaker 2: we're talking today about this social media ban for under sixteens. Now,

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Speaker 2: this is legislation that has actually already been tabled in

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Speaker 2: Parliament and as I understand, it has already gone through.

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Speaker 2: For anyone who missed this, because I think it happened

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Speaker 2: at the very end of last year, do you want

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Speaker 2: to just explain the context of this.

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Speaker 3: Yes. So you might remember last year it was November

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Speaker 3: when the government introduced its bill to ban under sixteen

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Speaker 3: year olds from social media. Now, that followed this kind

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Speaker 3: of intense public campaign that gained a lot of media attention,

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Speaker 3: a lot of celebrity endorsements, a lot of parents and

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Speaker 3: schools were on board, essentially saying that the government needed

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Speaker 3: to do a better job of protecting young people's mental

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Speaker 3: health in the online space. So, off the back of

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Speaker 3: that campaign, Australia became the first country in the world

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Speaker 3: to legislate an age specific social media ban. So under

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Speaker 3: the legislation, platforms including Snapchat, Instagram, x TikTok, Reddit, Facebook,

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Speaker 3: they all have to block any user under sixteen from

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Speaker 3: having an account on their platform, and the responsibility basically

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Speaker 3: will fall on the platforms themselves. So it'll be up

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Speaker 3: to social media companies to enforce this ban, and failure

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Speaker 3: to comply will result in fines of fifty million dollars.

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Speaker 2: Okay, So, the Australian government introduces this ban for social

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Speaker 2: media for under sixteen year olds, but YouTube is exempt

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Speaker 2: from the ban. What was the government's reasoning at the

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Speaker 2: time as to why YouTube was exempt?

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Speaker 3: So initially YouTube was not included in this legislation, as

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Speaker 3: you mentioned, Billy, predominantly because the government said it's used

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Speaker 3: for learning. YouTube is used as an educational resource. So

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Speaker 3: in a speech last year, then Communications Minister Michelle Roland said, YouTube,

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Speaker 3: as well as some other platforms like messaging platform WhatsApp,

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Speaker 3: which is also exempt quote enable young people to get

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Speaker 3: the education and health support they needed. So the logic

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Speaker 3: was basically that unlike Instagram, TikTok and Facebook, that YouTube

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Speaker 3: serves as more of an educational tool, so it's used

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Speaker 3: by teachers and students for tutorials, videos, documentaries, historical docos,

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Speaker 3: and scientific experiments, all these kinds of resources, rather than

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Speaker 3: being used as a social networking platform designed around user

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Speaker 3: generated content and social interaction. So there is a social

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Speaker 3: element to YouTube in the comments for example, but the

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Speaker 3: government basically said a lot of people come to the

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Speaker 3: platform for a use that is completely different. YouTube also

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Speaker 3: already requires children under thirteen to provide a parent or

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Speaker 3: guardians contact details when they create an account, and they

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Speaker 3: also have YouTube Kids, which you might have heard of.

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Speaker 3: It's a separate platform designed specifically for really young users,

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Speaker 3: and there are more content restrictions on YouTube kids.

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Speaker 2: It's funny how different platforms are used by different people

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Speaker 2: for different things. Yeah, I have to say I do

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Speaker 2: not use YouTube for educational purposes, or if I do,

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Speaker 2: the extent of that was makeup tutorials when I was

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Speaker 2: growing up.

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Speaker 3: But you could argue that's kind of an educational resource.

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Speaker 3: It's still a tutorial.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, that and comedy sketches. So perhaps wasn't using it

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Speaker 2: for the best thing, but hey, it was the early days,

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Speaker 2: it was, and so now the government has changed its course.

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Speaker 2: What prompted this shift.

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Speaker 3: So there were a few key factors that seemed to

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Speaker 3: have influenced this decision to include YouTube in the ban.

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Speaker 3: And when it was first confirmed last year that YouTube

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Speaker 3: would be exempt, you can imagine that this drew a

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Speaker 3: lot of criticism from other social media companies. They argued

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Speaker 3: that it wasn't fair to have a kind of separate

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Speaker 3: set of rules for one and not the others. And

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Speaker 3: this year we've really seen a concerted effort from the

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Speaker 3: a Safety Commissioner. So this is Australia's top online safety advisor.

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Speaker 3: The Commissioner's name is Julie Inman Grant and in June

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Speaker 3: so last month she issued official advice to the federal government,

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Speaker 3: urging it to reconsider its stance specifically around YouTube. So

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Speaker 3: She pointed out that you can still access YouTube without

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Speaker 3: an account, but argued that the platform has evolved beyond

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Speaker 3: just educational content and that young people are still at

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Speaker 3: risk if they hold an account and if they are

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Speaker 3: engaging with the platform. So E Safety recommended there be

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Speaker 3: no exemptions for specific platforms under the legislation because quote

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Speaker 3: the relative risks and harms can change at any given

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Speaker 3: moment across different types of social media. In an addressed

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Speaker 3: to the National Press Club, Julian mcgrant said that recent

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Speaker 3: E safety research had shown four in ten children reported

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Speaker 3: being exposed to harmful content on YouTube, which was the

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Speaker 3: highest of any platform. So that research really drove this

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Speaker 3: push by E safety to get YouTube included in the.

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Speaker 2: Band okay so Australia's E Safety Commissioner said that in

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Speaker 2: June at the time, how did YouTube respond to those claims?

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Speaker 3: So YouTube has rejected those claims roundly. Its public policy

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Speaker 3: senior manager Rachel Lord criticized E Safety's advice, saying the

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Speaker 3: video sharing platform is widely used in classroom teaching, and

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Speaker 3: in a statement, Lord said banning YouTube would ignore evidence

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Speaker 3: from teachers and parents that YouTube is suitable for younger users.

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Speaker 3: So they really leaned on that kind of community messaging

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Speaker 3: that this is not the same type of social media

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Speaker 3: as your kind of meta owned platforms and the others

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Speaker 3: got it.

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Speaker 2: Did the other social media platforms that were included in

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Speaker 2: a ban have anything to say about YouTube's exemption?

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Speaker 3: Yes, So the criticism has broadly been that if the

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Speaker 3: government was serious about protecting children from online harms, then

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Speaker 3: the world's largest video platform shouldn't get special treatment. So TikTok,

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Speaker 3: for example, its policy director in Australia, Ella Wood's Joyce,

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Speaker 3: compared YouTube's exemption to quote banning the sale of soft

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Speaker 3: drinks to minors but exempting Coca cola.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, we love an analogy, sure too, Okay, So clearly

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Speaker 2: there was mounting pressure from the big social media platforms

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Speaker 2: and also the E Safety Commissioner to ensure that there

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Speaker 2: are no exemptions, and that pressure seemed to have worked,

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Speaker 2: because this week the government announced that YouTube would no

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Speaker 2: longer be exempt and now under sixteen year olds will

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Speaker 2: be banned from using that platform. How did this announcement

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Speaker 2: unfold this week?

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Speaker 3: So after the E Safety Commissioner wrote to the government

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Speaker 3: in June with that advice we heard from the government.

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Speaker 3: It said that basically the Communications Minister Annika Wells was

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Speaker 3: carefully considering that advice and so that's where things stayed

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Speaker 3: out for a few weeks until Tuesday night, when the

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Speaker 3: government announced YouTube would be subject to the same age

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Speaker 3: restrictions as other social media platforms. We got a statement

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Speaker 3: from Prime Minister Anthony Alberesi's office which said the decision

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Speaker 3: followed extensive consultation and was in four formed by advice

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Speaker 3: from the E Safety Commissioner. The statement said online gaming,

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Speaker 3: messaging apps, health and education services though would not be

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Speaker 3: included in the ban quote because they pose fewer social

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Speaker 3: media harms to under sixteens or are regulated under different laws,

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Speaker 3: so that includes WhatsApp for example. WhatsApp will not be

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Speaker 3: included or affected by the ban, but the change does

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Speaker 3: mean that from December, YouTube will be subject to the

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Speaker 3: same minimum age laws that platforms like TikTok, Instagram and

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Speaker 3: Snapchat will have to adhere to, and at a press

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Speaker 3: conference on Wednesday, the Communications Minister Annika Wells said the

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Speaker 3: evidence of harms to young users on YouTube cannot be ignored.

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Speaker 1: We want kids to know who they are before platforms

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Speaker 1: assume who they are. These are not set and forget

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Speaker 1: rules is a set of support rules. They are world leading.

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Speaker 1: But this is manifestly too important for us not to

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Speaker 1: have a crap.

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Speaker 2: So you mentioned before that YouTube does have the educational

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Speaker 2: content on its platform, the ones that are much more

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Speaker 2: educational than the makeup tutorials I watched when I was sixteen.

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Speaker 2: But in terms of I know that there are you know,

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Speaker 2: documentaries there which you know, maybe teachers would even use

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Speaker 2: to help with classes that they're teaching. Yeah, did the

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Speaker 2: Communications Minister Annika Wells say anything about whether that educational

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Speaker 2: content will be accessible still?

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Speaker 3: Yeah? Well, I think it's worth noting that the restriction

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Speaker 3: only applies to YouTube account holders, so under sixteen year

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Speaker 3: olds won't be allowed to log in on YouTube, but

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Speaker 3: they can still watch videos on the platform, you know,

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Speaker 3: the same way any of us can without having to

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Speaker 3: log in, So that doesn't change the classroom aspect. That

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Speaker 3: doesn't stop kids from watching potentially helpful videos, but it

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Speaker 3: also doesn't stop them from seeing potentially harmful content either.

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Speaker 2: That's interesting, So here they are really just banning under

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Speaker 2: sixteens from creating an account. But YouTube is unlike something

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Speaker 2: like Twitter or x I should say, or Instagram, where

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Speaker 2: you actually need an account in order to view content

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Speaker 2: on those platforms exactly. YouTube is not like that.

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Speaker 3: And the other really important aspect to having a YouTube

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Speaker 3: account is the algorithm that comes with that. So if

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Speaker 3: you are logged in on YouTube, then the intuitive kind

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Speaker 3: of nature of the algorithm pays attention to what you watch.

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Speaker 3: It starts to learn about your habits, it starts to

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Speaker 3: serve you videos that I think you might want to watch.

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Speaker 3: And it's that kind of rabbit hole algorithm that's been

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Speaker 3: really criticized in terms of promoting violence or serving videos

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Speaker 3: to young boys that could be seen as kind of

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Speaker 3: radicalizing them towards becoming violent. So the algorithm aspect is

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Speaker 3: a really big one. And if you're a casual or

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Speaker 3: more passive YouTube consumer, you're not logged in. It's not

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Speaker 3: learning about you, it's not suggesting video content to you.

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Speaker 2: Another story that I have read about this week is

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Speaker 2: in relation to Google, which is YouTube's parent company, them

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Speaker 2: potentially considering suing the Australian government. What is that story about.

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Speaker 3: So meanwhile, in the background of all of this We've

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Speaker 3: got reports from the Daily Telegraph that Google is threatening

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Speaker 3: legal action against the government for proceeding with including YouTube

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Speaker 3: in the ban. So we haven't seen the full details

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Speaker 3: of Google's legal arguments, but they have previously raised concerns

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Speaker 3: about the timing and the feasibility of age verification systems.

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Speaker 3: So this all relies on successful age verification technology, and

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Speaker 3: in submissions to Parliament last year, Google warned against introducing

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Speaker 3: the law before tested age verification systems are in place. Now,

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Speaker 3: despite the government's claims that it is running age verification

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Speaker 3: trials that have been mostly successful, Google has pointed out

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Speaker 3: that the full age verification system trial won't be finished

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Speaker 3: until mid next year, making the bills timing concerning in

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Speaker 3: its words. Annaka Wells has addressed this the Communications Minister,

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Speaker 3: saying the government's waiting on the Age Assurance final recommendations,

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Speaker 3: but she said that they will publish those recommendations as

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Speaker 3: soon as possible.

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Speaker 2: So they just so I understand they are suing over

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Speaker 2: the timeline, but not necessarily the suggestion of YouTube being included.

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Speaker 3: Well, this is all reported by the Daily Telegraph, but

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Speaker 3: the suggestion is yes, that they're considering legal action because

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Speaker 3: of the timeline, and because the technology might not have

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Speaker 3: met the timeline. And there's also a potential argument about

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Speaker 3: challenging the legislation on constitutional grounds. So the Daily Telegraph

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Speaker 3: reports cited a letter sent by Google to the Communications

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Speaker 3: Minister which said including YouTube in the band would diminish

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Speaker 3: the quote implied constitutional freedom of political communication, So a

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Speaker 3: free speech argument there, and how has.

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Speaker 2: The government responded to this threat of legal action from Google?

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Speaker 3: So Anaka Wells addressed this directly yesterday when she said

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Speaker 3: she will quote not be intimidated by legal threats when

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Speaker 3: this is a genuine fight for the well being of

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Speaker 3: Australian kids. Speaking alongside her, also yesterday, Prime Minister Anthony

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Speaker 3: Albernezi acknowledged that the ban isn't going to be a

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Speaker 3: simple or easy process, but he did say the government

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Speaker 3: wants this to be a cooperative one. So he essentially

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Speaker 3: dismissed claims that these platforms don't have the resources or

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Speaker 3: technology or that they're not going to be ready to

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Speaker 3: roll out age verification. Here's a little bit of what

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Speaker 3: he said.

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Speaker 4: I know where you go, how you talk to, what

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Speaker 4: you're interested in. You know, they do keep that information

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Speaker 4: and during the election campaign if they could identify for

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Speaker 4: political parties in order to encourage us to invest on

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Speaker 4: their platforms on an issue like childcare, identifying women between

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Speaker 4: a particular age, in a particular seat, in a particular

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Speaker 4: demographic with particular postcodes, then they can help out here too.

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Speaker 4: They can use the capacity which we know that they have.

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Speaker 2: Has the opposition responded to the YouTube announcement, So.

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Speaker 3: The Coalition interestingly has supported this social media ban for

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Speaker 3: under sixteen year olds. It's really very much in favor

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Speaker 3: of us exactly. They really were on board, but since

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Speaker 3: news that YouTube was going to be included, they have

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Speaker 3: been pretty critical of the government. So the Coalition are

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Speaker 3: not criticizing the ban itself, but they've said that Labor

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Speaker 3: has essentially broken a promise with this backflip. We've heard

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Speaker 3: from Shadow Communications Minister Melissa Macintosh, who has accused the

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Speaker 3: government of a lack of transparency. She said Labor quote

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Speaker 3: cannot hide the fact that they deliberately misled the public

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Speaker 3: at the last election by promising to keep YouTube out

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Speaker 3: of the social media age minimum. She said the Coalition

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Speaker 3: is concerned that the e Safety Commissioner as well is

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Speaker 3: testing boundaries quote which are moving beyond what Australians are

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Speaker 3: comfortable with.

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Speaker 2: So in terms of what happens now, you said before

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Speaker 2: that this comes into effect on the tenth of December,

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Speaker 2: I believe you said. And so what needs to happen

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Speaker 2: between now and then.

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Speaker 3: Yes, So, as you said, this legislation is due to

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Speaker 3: come into effect in December. The E Safety Commissioner will

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Speaker 3: be responsible for enforcing the new rules against the social

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Speaker 3: media companies, but it will be up to each platform

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Speaker 3: to roll out their own strategies to ensure they're complying

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Speaker 3: with the law. So in terms of how they do that,

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Speaker 3: we need I suppose more concrete evidence or advice on

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Speaker 3: age verification technology. But it is worth noting that the

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Speaker 3: legislation places the responsibility on the platforms, not the users,

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Speaker 3: so not on young people or their parents. Users are

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Speaker 3: not going to face penalties for attempting to access these platforms. Now,

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Speaker 3: in terms of the legal threat, Google may follow through

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Speaker 3: on that, and that could involve challenging this legislation in

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Speaker 3: the Federal court in order to avoid that. You know,

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Speaker 3: purely speculating here, but the government might end up goiating

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Speaker 3: or working with them to kind of prevent legal action

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Speaker 3: from going all the way to court, and that could

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Speaker 3: look like, you know, some flexibility on the technical implementation

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Speaker 3: of age verification or some delays. So the legal threat

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Speaker 3: could potentially delay implementation. But given the bipartisan support that

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Speaker 3: we've seen for this legislation and the substantial work that's

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Speaker 3: already been done on the age verification trials, the government seems,

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Speaker 3: you know, pretty sternly committed to proceeding with the December deadline.

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Speaker 2: Something tells me we are going to be hearing a

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Speaker 2: lot more about it in the months to come, exactly.

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Speaker 2: And thank you so much for explaining that. Thank you,

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Speaker 2: and thank you so much for listening to this episode

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Speaker 2: of The Daily os or you might be listening or

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Speaker 2: watching on YouTube hopefully you're over sixteen.

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Speaker 1: Hello.

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Speaker 2: We'll be back this afternoon with your evening headlines, but

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Speaker 2: until then, have a good day.

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Speaker 1: My name is Lily Madden and I'm a proud Arunda

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Speaker 1: Bungelung Calcuttin woman country. The Daily oz acknowledges that this

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Speaker 1: podcast is recorded on the lands of the Gadigal people

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Speaker 1: and pays respect to all Aboriginal and torrest Rate island

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Speaker 1: and nations. We pay our respects to the first peoples

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Speaker 1: of these countries, both past and present,