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Speaker 1: Already and this is the Daily Oh, this is the

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Speaker 1: Daily ohs oh, now it makes sense. Good morning and

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Speaker 1: welcome to the Daily OS. It is Thursday, the sixteenth

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Speaker 1: of May.

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Speaker 2: I'm billy, I'm zara.

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Speaker 1: For the first time, someone has been imprisoned in relation

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Speaker 1: to Australia's alleged war crimes. His name is David McBride

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Speaker 1: and he didn't commit those war crimes, but he was

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Speaker 1: partly responsible for bringing them to the public's attention. He

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Speaker 1: was the whistleblower for twenty seventeen report by the ABC

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Speaker 1: that investigated alleged war crimes committed by Australian forces in Afghanistan.

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Speaker 1: And this week McBride was sentenced to nearly six.

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Speaker 2: Years in jail.

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Speaker 1: We'll tell you what you need to know in today's episode,

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Speaker 1: but before we get there, what else is making headlines Today's.

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Speaker 2: Are wages grew by four point one percent over the

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Speaker 2: year to March. That's according to this Astralian Bureau of Statistics.

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Speaker 2: And your wages have dropped slightly from the fifteen year

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Speaker 2: high reported in December of four point two percent. As

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Speaker 2: part of this week's federal budget, the Australian government projected

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Speaker 2: wage growth slow over the coming years as inflation is

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Speaker 2: expected to stabilize following two years of increases.

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Speaker 1: Students at pro Palestine encampments at the Australian National University

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Speaker 1: have been asked to clear their camps by tomorrow. The

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Speaker 1: National Tertiary Education Union has announced a snap rally at

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Speaker 1: a and U later today to protest the university's request.

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Speaker 1: It comes a day after students at Melbourne's Deacon University

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Speaker 1: were asked to dismantle their camps or risk breaching the

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Speaker 1: university's code of conduct.

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Speaker 2: Russian President Vladimir Putin is in Beijing today, where he'll

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Speaker 2: meet with his Chinese counterpart Jijingping, China's Foreign Ministry Sai.

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Speaker 2: The leaders will discuss international ties and regional issues of

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Speaker 2: common concern between the two countries. This includes antid to pay,

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Speaker 2: the talks on Russia and China's anti US stance and

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Speaker 2: Russia's ongoing invasion of Ukraine.

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Speaker 1: And today's good news. Researchers in the US have identified

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Speaker 1: three of the oldest stars to ever be recorded. Undergraduate

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Speaker 1: students at MIT worked with astronomers to discover the twelve

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Speaker 1: to thirteen billion year old stars in the Melky Way's halo.

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Speaker 1: That is a very big achievement for someone's undergraduate degree.

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Speaker 2: So, Billy, before we begin this deep dive, this is

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Speaker 2: a really complex story for a number of reasons. I

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Speaker 2: think that you know, the subject matter is very dense

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Speaker 2: and obviously quite distressing, but also the way that the

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Speaker 2: court case has played out, it's been a really long time,

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Speaker 2: So I think I just wanted to acknowledge that before

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Speaker 2: we jump into today's deep dive, because I know it's

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Speaker 2: taken us a little while to get our heads around.

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Speaker 2: But I think that a good starting point for this

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Speaker 2: story is just to explain what a whistleblower is, because

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Speaker 2: I think that that's central to understanding what our deep

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Speaker 2: dive is going to be about.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, it's a term that we hear a lot about

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Speaker 1: in the media, but maybe if you're not in the media,

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Speaker 1: you won't hear about it as much. But it's really important.

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Speaker 1: So a whistleblower is someone usually someone in a company

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Speaker 1: or someone with close knowledge of what's going on in

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Speaker 1: a company or an institution, and that someone shares information

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Speaker 1: publicly about alleged illegal activity by that company or institution.

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Speaker 1: So those who are in favor of whistleblowers would say

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Speaker 1: that they are really important for journalists, especially when it

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Speaker 1: comes to helping journalists hold the power to account. There

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Speaker 1: have been a number of examples of when whistleblowers have

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Speaker 1: told or helped journalists tell really big stories. One really

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Speaker 1: famous example is when a former tobacco executive blew the

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Speaker 1: whistle to the US sixty minutes and he told them

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Speaker 1: that tobacco companies knew that nicotine was addictive and yet

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Speaker 1: they continued to sell cigarettes anyway.

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Speaker 2: Huge story, and that was only told because of a whistleblower.

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Speaker 2: But not everyone agrees that whistleblowing is necessarily the right

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Speaker 2: thing to do, right.

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Speaker 1: Exactly because people who against whistleblowers would say they are

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Speaker 1: breaching company rules, and they are often also breaching legal rules.

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Speaker 1: And in some cases, and certainly in this case, the

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Speaker 1: argument is that they can put national security at risk.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, so obviously an extremely divisive topic. I think you know,

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Speaker 2: us as journalists will probably be in quite a unique

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Speaker 2: position when talking about a story like this, especially compared

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Speaker 2: to the general public. I do want to go to

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Speaker 2: the story at hand, though, in the headlines that we've

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Speaker 2: seen this week, which is about David McBride, So who

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Speaker 2: is David McBride and why is he in the news?

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Speaker 1: So he is a former employee of the Australian Defense

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Speaker 1: Force also known as the ADF, and he was a

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Speaker 1: special Operations Legal officer who was deployed to Afghanistan in

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Speaker 1: twenty eleven and twenty and thirteen. So he spent about

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Speaker 1: two years there. And while there, McBride became concerned that

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Speaker 1: the ADF was improperly investigating soldiers who he believed hadn't

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Speaker 1: done anything wrong. Now, he first tried to raise the

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Speaker 1: alarm internally in the ADF, but when that didn't work,

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Speaker 1: he went to the Australian Federal Police. Again, that didn't work,

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Speaker 1: and then he went to the Defense Minister. He didn't

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Speaker 1: get anywhere there, and so when all of those attempts failed,

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Speaker 1: he then went to the ABC, who is Australia's public broadcaster,

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Speaker 1: and he told them about his concerns of what was

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Speaker 1: happening in the ADF. Now, McBride believed that the materials

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Speaker 1: he provided to the ABC demonstrated improper investigations of ADF soldiers.

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Speaker 2: Okay, so David McBride in the ADF, he's given materials

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Speaker 2: to the public broadcaster, to the ABC. In them, he

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Speaker 2: believes that they tell a story of the ADF improperly

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Speaker 2: investigating some of its own soldiers.

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Speaker 1: Yes, he was concerned that there were improper investigations happening,

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Speaker 1: and so he went to the ABC. However, despite what

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Speaker 1: he wanted the ABC to look at, the ABC kind

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Speaker 1: of went in a different direction. So the documents he

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Speaker 1: provided also contained evidence suggesting that Australian soldiers had allegedly

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Speaker 1: committed war crimes, and these allegations were used by the

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Speaker 1: ABC in their reporting for a twenty seventeen investigation that

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Speaker 1: they did called the Afghan Files. Now, we aren't going

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Speaker 1: to get into what they alleged happened in that investigation

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Speaker 1: because we're more focusing on the repercussions that McBride faced

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Speaker 1: for speaking out. But I do think it's worth mentioning

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Speaker 1: that an official inquiry has since found that there is

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Speaker 1: credible evidence of war crimes in Afghanistan.

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Speaker 2: Okay, So I just want to recap where we're at.

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Speaker 2: So McBride leaked these documents. He said that they were

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Speaker 2: to highlight what he believed was this improper practice that

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Speaker 2: was happening in the ADF. In doing so, there were

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Speaker 2: other things in those documents that were allegations of war

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Speaker 2: crimes that were then reported in turn by the ABC

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Speaker 2: that prompted a review. Turns out that there was some

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Speaker 2: evidence to suggest that was the case. So ultimately, David

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Speaker 2: McBride has provided the ABC with materials that have then

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Speaker 2: become about allegations of war crimes.

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Speaker 1: Great listener, thank you so much.

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Speaker 2: So these legal proceedings have been ongoing for a number

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Speaker 2: of years. What is the case against David McBride.

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Speaker 1: So in twenty eighteen, McBride was charged with offenses relating

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Speaker 1: to national security. So it is illegal to share classified

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Speaker 1: Commonwealth material and that's exactly what he did and he

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Speaker 1: was charged for that. Now, McBride has never disputed that

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Speaker 1: he was the person who leaked this material, but his

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Speaker 1: argument is that he did it in the public interest.

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Speaker 2: And what does that mean the public interest?

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Speaker 1: Well, it's another idea that we hear a lot about

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Speaker 1: in the media, and it's this concept that the public

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Speaker 1: has a right to know certain things. So in this context,

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Speaker 1: McBride is saying that whilst he acknowledges that he did

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Speaker 1: share secret material that he was not allowed to do,

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Speaker 1: he says that he felt like he had this duty

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Speaker 1: to share what he believed to be alleged illegal conduct,

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Speaker 1: and yet he thought it was his duty to make

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Speaker 1: it publicly known. And therefore he believes he was justified

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Speaker 1: in that breach and in doing what he did.

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Speaker 2: Okay, but ultimately he's charged. What happens from there.

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Speaker 1: So they go to court and McBride intended to fight

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Speaker 1: these charges and to defend himself, but early in the trial,

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Speaker 1: the court ruled that certain evidence could not be used

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Speaker 1: by McBride's lawyers because the court believed it could have

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Speaker 1: jeopardized the security and defense of Australia. Now, without this evidence,

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Speaker 1: McBride's lawyers made the decision that it would be too

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Speaker 1: hard to defend themselves, and so that resulted in McBride

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Speaker 1: pleading guilty to three charges, including theft and sharing documents

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Speaker 1: classified as secret with members of the press.

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Speaker 2: Okay, So ultimately McBride ends up pleading guilty because quite

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Speaker 2: a bit of that evidence can't actually be presented in court.

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Speaker 2: So from there we moved to sentencing and that's what

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Speaker 2: happened this week.

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Speaker 1: Yes, we got the sentencing this week. It was on Tuesday,

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Speaker 1: and the Act Supreme Court sentence McBride to nearly six

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Speaker 1: years in prison, and that sentence has a non parole

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Speaker 1: period of two years and three months. Now, I'll go

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Speaker 1: through what the judge said in part during his judgment

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Speaker 1: because I think it's important to understand the court's perspective

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Speaker 1: and making this decision. So he said that self confident

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Speaker 1: people with strong opinions who are subject to legal duties

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Speaker 1: not to disclose information must be deterred from making disclosures

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Speaker 1: in order to advance their opinions. He continued, they must

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Speaker 1: know that reaching their legal obligations will be met by

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Speaker 1: significant punishment. That is particularly so when the information is

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Speaker 1: secret and its disclosure has the potential to harm Australia's

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Speaker 1: national security.

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Speaker 2: Okay, So deterrence is the key there. That they're saying

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Speaker 2: that this needs to be a strong judgment to deter

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Speaker 2: other people from doing the same thing as David McBride.

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Speaker 1: Did, exactly, deterring future people from sharing information that could

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Speaker 1: put Australia's national security at risk.

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Speaker 2: Okay, So that's obviously the court's perspective. But if our

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Speaker 2: comment section is anything to go by, it was not

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Speaker 2: a popular decision by any means. What are some of

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Speaker 2: the reactions we've seen come out.

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Speaker 1: So one that stood out to me was by the

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Speaker 1: Human Rights Law Center being quite vocal on this. Yeah.

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Speaker 1: They pointed out that McBride is actually the first person

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Speaker 1: imprisoned in relation to Australia's war crimes. So they criticized

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Speaker 1: that the first person to be in prison for Australia's

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Speaker 1: alleged war crimes is someone who who revealed those war crimes,

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Speaker 1: not committed them.

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Speaker 2: It's a strong point there, Yeah.

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Speaker 1: Kieran Pender, who is the acting Legal director at the

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Speaker 1: Human Rights Law Center, said this is a dark day

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Speaker 1: for Australian democracy. The imprisonment of a whistleblower will have

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Speaker 1: a grave chilling effect on potential truth tellers. There is

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Speaker 1: no public interest in prosecuting whistleblowers, so he's basically saying

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Speaker 1: that this will prevent future people from coming out with

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Speaker 1: alleged illegal conduct that they believe also is in the

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Speaker 1: public interest.

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Speaker 2: One of the interesting things I saw come up quite

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Speaker 2: a bit in our comments was about the fact that

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Speaker 2: obviously David McBride is just one of many whistleblowers, another

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Speaker 2: of whom is Julian Assange, who is a fellow Australian

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Speaker 2: and there's been this whole long campaign that we've spoken

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Speaker 2: about a lot on the podcast about bringing Julian Assange

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Speaker 2: home so that he can be tried here in Australia,

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Speaker 2: and a lot of comments under the Peace were saying,

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Speaker 2: how can we expect that Julian Assange will be brought

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Speaker 2: home if this is the way that we are dealing

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Speaker 2: with whistleblowers here at home, which I just thought was

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Speaker 2: an interesting perspective and certainly broadens this to more of

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Speaker 2: a global stage.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, it feels like the whole nation is having a

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Speaker 1: really big conversation at the moment about what we do

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Speaker 1: with whistleblowers and how we treat them all.

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Speaker 2: Right, before we go, Billy, what happens next for David McBride.

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Speaker 1: So McBride goes to jail now, but his lawyers have

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Speaker 1: said that they plan to appeal this sentencing, So even

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Speaker 1: though he's going to jail now, his sentence could be

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Speaker 1: reduced if they have a successful appeal, but that is

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Speaker 1: obviously yet to be seen.

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Speaker 2: Definitely a really interesting story. And I think what you

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Speaker 2: said before from Kier and Pender about this being the

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Speaker 2: first imprisonment of anyone related to allegations of war crimes

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Speaker 2: here in Australia. It's just a really fascinating story and

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Speaker 2: definitely one that will set a precedent all around the

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Speaker 2: country and around the world.

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Speaker 1: Thank you so much for listening to this episode of

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Speaker 1: The Daily OS. We always appreciate you listening to us,

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Speaker 1: so much and we will be back tomorrow.

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Speaker 3: My name is Lily Maddon and I'm a proud Dunda

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Speaker 3: Bungelung Kalkatin woman from Gadigol Country. The Daily ozz acknowledges

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Speaker 3: that this podcast is recorded on the lands of the

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Speaker 3: Gadighl people and pays respect to all Aboriginal and Torres

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Speaker 3: Strait Island and nations. We pay our respects to the

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Speaker 3: first peoples of these countries, both past and present.