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Speaker 1: Jersey and Amanda jam Nation. After fourteen years of friendship,

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Speaker 1: Lisa and Sarah were as close as friends as they

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Speaker 1: could be. But after eight long years of trying for

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Speaker 1: a baby, eighteen rounds of IVFG, I know what those

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Speaker 1: years are like. Lisa and her husband had just about

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Speaker 1: given up the idea of expanding their family until Sarah

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Speaker 1: came to her with a life changing offer, the baby

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Speaker 1: that they longed for. Sarah Megason and Lisa Messenger have

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Speaker 1: written a book about this called The Power of Two,

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Speaker 1: and they join us now, Sarah and Lisa.

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Speaker 2: Hello, Hello ladies, good morning.

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Speaker 3: Hello.

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Speaker 1: So surrogacy isn't legal in Australia, which I think was

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Speaker 1: just astounds me. So the only way you can have

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Speaker 1: a baby like this is if someone like you steps up.

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Speaker 1: Am I right about that? Sarah?

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Speaker 3: Yeah, that's right. It's called altruistic surrogacy. So commercial surrogacy

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Speaker 3: where any money changes hand, that's illegal in Australia. But

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Speaker 3: altruistic surrogacy, where you do it out of you know,

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Speaker 3: the goodness of your heart, that is allowed. But only

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Speaker 3: about one hundred and twenty of those scenarios happen in

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Speaker 3: Australia each year because it's pretty tricky to find someone

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Speaker 3: who can do that.

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Speaker 2: For you, and you guys are pretty close. But it

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Speaker 2: must have been hard Sarah when you were carrying that

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Speaker 2: little baby, because you would have maternal instincts and also

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Speaker 2: for Lisa, you would have been thinking, oh, what if

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Speaker 2: Sarah suddenly decides I want to have this, I want

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Speaker 2: to keep the baby.

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Speaker 4: I mean, I think there's so much trust, Hayley, There's

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Speaker 4: very much trust, and I think lots of communications. Sarah

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Speaker 4: and I have known each other since twenty eleven, so

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Speaker 4: we'd had a pretty strong friendship by the time it

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Speaker 4: came about to us being pregnant.

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Speaker 1: So, Sarah, you had children of your own. How did

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Speaker 1: you explain to them what was going on.

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Speaker 3: We were really lucky because they were old enough to understand.

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Speaker 3: So they were all in primary school and high school,

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Speaker 3: so I was able to explain to them really clearly

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Speaker 3: that we were I was going to get pregnant, but

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Speaker 3: they weren't getting a sibling, and it was really great.

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Speaker 3: They were really part of the experience, and they fully

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Speaker 3: understood that our friends really wanted a baby and that

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Speaker 3: we were going to be part of the link in

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Speaker 3: the chain that helped them start their family. So they

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Speaker 3: were really supportive, really involved. Even my twelve year old

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Speaker 3: daughter was there for the implantation day. That they were

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Speaker 3: involved every step of the way.

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Speaker 1: And Lisa, how did you feel did you have natural

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Speaker 1: feelings of kind of jealousy that Sarah was carrying the baby?

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Speaker 1: How did and I assume this is an embryo, it

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Speaker 1: was it your egg and your husband's sperm together.

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Speaker 4: Well, all of that would talk about in our book,

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Speaker 4: But I wasn't jealous at all, Amanda, because I've been

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Speaker 4: trying for a baby for eight years, so I'd been

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Speaker 4: through sixteen rounds of IVF myself before Sarah tried for me.

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Speaker 4: So I was just thrilled, and honestly, it was the

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Speaker 4: most exciting way to have a baby. It was like

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Speaker 4: having your best girlfriend by your side. And every single

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Speaker 4: day we were either face timing or we were together

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Speaker 4: in person at every single scan, or we were calling

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Speaker 4: each other or dming each other. So no, I actually

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Speaker 4: it was extraordinary and I could not fault the entire experience.

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Speaker 2: And how did the men in your life go with this?

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Speaker 4: Well, there's been extraordinarily supportive, But sometimes my hubby Stephen

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Speaker 4: feels on the outer He's like, I feel like, if

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Speaker 4: you're a Sarah's baby, we just had such fun together.

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Speaker 4: But they've been really, really special, And to be honest,

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Speaker 4: it Steven's fault a little bit. He hates social media,

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Speaker 4: whereas Sarah and I have kind of been sharing our

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Speaker 4: story from the rooftops to help other people.

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Speaker 1: And as you say, so few people go about it

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Speaker 1: this way because how hard it must be. How do

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Speaker 1: you feel about this being offered a financial service? Why

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Speaker 1: aren't we like the states where this can be regulated.

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Speaker 4: There. I feel like in each other's head that we're

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Speaker 4: probably gonna say very similar think. Look, I think it's

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Speaker 4: great in a way that you know it's so regulated,

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Speaker 4: but also there's huge downfalls around that. It's very prohibitive.

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Speaker 4: There's so much paper work. In fact, today here there

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Speaker 4: is almost sixteen months old and we still don't have

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Speaker 4: a legal birth certificate or a Medicare card for him ourselves.

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Speaker 4: So there's so much red tape, so much bureaucracy, so

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Speaker 4: many hoops to jump through. So while some of it

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Speaker 4: should be regulated, so you know, it's not just open flather,

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Speaker 4: I think there's a lot of things that could jump

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Speaker 4: into twenty twenty four because you'd think.

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Speaker 2: That the government would be on top of this. Your

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Speaker 2: story's been around everywhere, so who's dragging the chain on this.

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Speaker 3: Life of people? Did not a lot of demand. Therefore

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Speaker 3: it within the government. You know the fact that there's

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Speaker 3: only one hundred and twenty of these a year, it

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Speaker 3: just becomes such a low priority for them. They're you know,

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Speaker 3: prioritizing based on need, and they just don't see the

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Speaker 3: need there. And we see this a lot with a

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Speaker 3: lot of areas of fertility and medicare rebates. You know,

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Speaker 3: even that was something because I was a surrogate, there

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Speaker 3: were different rebates that Lisa and Stephen could claim. They

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Speaker 3: couldn't get as much back from the government because it

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Speaker 3: wasn't their own fertility process. And I think things like

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Speaker 3: that we need a bit of attention because it just

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Speaker 3: makes it so prohibitive.

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Speaker 1: I've got a friend who has a child through surrogacy

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Speaker 1: and they went to the States where it was so regulated,

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Speaker 1: so straightforward, so taken care of. I I just saw

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Speaker 1: a very different side of it and this wonderful family

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Speaker 1: that's been created because of it. I don't know why

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Speaker 1: we can't just make this easier for people.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, I agree, it's all right. I mean in the

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Speaker 4: US it's very expensive because you know, it's a pay

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Speaker 4: to play situation. And as I said, it's altruistic in Australia,

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Speaker 4: and we don't take it lightly that we've been in

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Speaker 4: a fortunate financial position that we could go through so

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Speaker 4: many rounds of IBF and then do this, and we

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Speaker 4: am acutely aware that there are a lot of people

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Speaker 4: out there who can't even afford one round of IBF.

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Speaker 4: So I think also some of the barriers to entry

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Speaker 4: and some government support and things around this because it

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Speaker 4: affects so many people, you know, infertility or struggling. So

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Speaker 4: I would like to see some regulatory changes and support

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Speaker 4: their and the government for sure.

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Speaker 2: Well, it's a case of working and little Hugo look

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Speaker 2: at him go, although when he turns into a teenager,

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Speaker 2: will you be handing him back to Sarah.

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Speaker 4: Oh, my gosh, I mean, hello, Toddlerville. He's the cute

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Speaker 4: of things that work before breakfast in the twenty seven

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Speaker 4: different ways he's tried to name himself or the cat

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Speaker 4: or the dog or some wall or something at the

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Speaker 4: help of it. He's adorable, but my gosh, he's wild.

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Speaker 2: It's a great story. Ladies. The Power of Two is

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Speaker 2: at all bookstores now. Sarah Lisa, thank you for joining us.

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Speaker 4: Thank you, Amanda