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Speaker 1: An evidence based solution for effectively navigating screen boundaries that

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Speaker 1: any parent can manage. That's what we're talking about today

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Speaker 1: on the Happy Families Podcast, with some excerpts from an

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Speaker 1: interview that I did with doctor Brad Marshall, the Unplugged Psychologist. Hello,

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Speaker 1: it's good to have you along to the Happy Families Podcast,

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Speaker 1: Real parenting solutions every day on Australia's most downloaded parenting podcast.

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Speaker 1: I'm just on here with Kylie, my wife and mum

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Speaker 1: to our six kids, and Kylie. A couple of days

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Speaker 1: ago I had a chat with doctor Brad Marshall. We're

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Speaker 1: going to play the full interview on Saturday so that

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Speaker 1: you can hear all the info, but I thought today

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Speaker 1: we might just have a quick discussion about the things

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Speaker 1: that he and I talked about from a purely parenting perspective,

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Speaker 1: because it was a fascinating conversation and there's more that

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Speaker 1: we can break down. We just we ran out of time.

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Speaker 1: Doctor Brad Marshall is also known as the Unplugged Psychologist.

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Speaker 1: We will link to all of his details in the

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Speaker 1: show notes today and on Saturday. But he's recently published paper.

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Speaker 1: In that paper, he showed what parental interventions do and

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Speaker 1: don't work for effective boundary setting with kids and screens.

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Speaker 1: And I don't know about you, but this is one

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Speaker 1: of those things where you kind of go, let me

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Speaker 1: add it. What don't I know.

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Speaker 2: Over the years, we've tried lots of different options, and

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Speaker 2: I think I think I'm right in saying that the

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Speaker 2: best one has been literally parental monitoring.

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Speaker 3: Yeah.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, And research over the years has emphasized that very

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Speaker 1: very clearly, if you are involved, then they are less

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Speaker 1: likely to be on their screens and certainly less likely

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Speaker 1: to do frustrating or damaging things. When I reflect on so,

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Speaker 1: our eldest is in him at twenties now, So if

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Speaker 1: I reflect on the last fifteen years of parenting with her,

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Speaker 1: all the way down to our youngest, who is about

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Speaker 1: to turn eleven, and who is incessantly requiring, requesting, demanding,

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Speaker 1: seeking opportunities to beyond screens, I think that the biggest

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Speaker 1: challenge that we've faced in our family, the most enduring

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Speaker 1: and annoying and provocative challenge, has been the issue of screens.

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Speaker 1: Maybe that's minimizing some of the other big things that

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Speaker 1: we've dealt with. We've certainly had some really big challenges,

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Speaker 1: but it's certainly the most enduring issue.

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Speaker 2: I would agree with you entirely, and I would also

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Speaker 2: acknowledge that, in spite of each of our girls being

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Speaker 2: distinctly and uniquely different in every way, shape or form,

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Speaker 2: we have faced this one challenge over and over again

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Speaker 2: every time, regardless of their differences.

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Speaker 1: Digital addiction it's this silent I was going to say

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Speaker 1: it's a silent epidemic. I think that's understating that. I

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Speaker 1: think that it's pretty noisy in leaving rooms when parents

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Speaker 1: are saying, would you get off your screen and do

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Speaker 1: as you do as you're told. I'm writing this book

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Speaker 1: about raising boys at the moment, and the number of

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Speaker 1: parents who have said I just want them to get

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Speaker 1: off their screen and participate in family life, or get

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Speaker 1: off their screen and get involved in school life, or

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Speaker 1: get off their screen and do something.

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Speaker 2: And hang out with their mates.

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Speaker 1: Yeah. Like, we're not talking about a fringe problem here.

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Speaker 1: These screens are just ravaging children's brains. I feel like

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Speaker 1: it's a full blown psychological assault on families, on kids' psychology,

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Speaker 1: on their well being, and when it comes to them,

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Speaker 1: particularly because their brains are in such a sensitive period

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Speaker 1: internet gaming, internet gaming disorder, smartphone addiction, social media dramas.

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Speaker 1: Jonathan Hates book The Anctious Generation. This is a conversation

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Speaker 1: that's so important. Something like ten percent of Australian teams

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Speaker 1: are getting their dopamine hits cheap, cheap dopamine hits from

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Speaker 1: their screens instead of life at addictive, compulsive, concerning levels.

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Speaker 1: It's a total generation of kids being rewired.

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Speaker 2: So you hinted before that. Brad's published a paper.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, research paper, peer reviewed, It's in journals now and.

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Speaker 2: It's going to give us the golden key. Yes, all

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Speaker 2: the answers we need and to how we deal with

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Speaker 2: this challenge with our teenagers.

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Speaker 1: Five things. He researched five things and looked at how

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Speaker 1: effective they were in setting boundaries with kids. Number one,

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Speaker 1: the number one thing, the most effective thing managing the

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Speaker 1: home Wi Fi with set limits.

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Speaker 2: What does that actually mean? In real terms?

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Speaker 1: That means that you literally set up the Wi Fi

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Speaker 1: so that the kids can or cannot have access at

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Speaker 1: certain days, certain times, certain whatever. And it's not that complex.

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Speaker 1: It's not a particularly hard thing to do. This is

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Speaker 1: what he had to say about it.

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Speaker 3: For setting Wi Fi limits, typically, what I talk about

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Speaker 3: is using something called a mesh router system. It allows

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Speaker 3: you to turn on and off certain devices at a

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Speaker 3: macro level without having to turn the entire Wi Fi

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Speaker 3: off if you don't want to. What fuels all of

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Speaker 3: these devices and their persuasive design and their addictive nature

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Speaker 3: in the dopamine is the Wi Fi. We know that

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Speaker 3: for a fact. So if the first two steps control

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Speaker 3: your Wi Fi and control the mobile data actually had

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Speaker 3: some of the biggest impact that we saw.

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Speaker 2: I know you said this is really simple, but now

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Speaker 2: I'm confused. What's a mesh router?

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Speaker 1: So the meshrouter system, it's just a form of technology.

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Speaker 1: I'm not an it guru. I'm not going to explain

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Speaker 1: it effectively. But we have had them at various times

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Speaker 1: our homes and it's a way of having the Internet

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Speaker 1: available in some places but not other places. So that's

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Speaker 1: an option. There's these things that you can get called

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Speaker 1: in charge boxes. That's literally you take the device off

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Speaker 1: your kids, you put them in the box, you lock

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Speaker 1: it up overnight. There's all sorts of different ways. What

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Speaker 1: is essentially saying is you control your kids access to

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Speaker 1: the device at certain times of the day, especially at night.

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Speaker 1: Time when they're in the bedroom and all of a

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Speaker 1: sudden you find that they just don't have those problems.

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Speaker 1: I remember one of our friends, Mark used to go

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Speaker 1: and collect all of his kids. I think Mark and

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Speaker 1: Amy they have five kids. I'm pretty sure they had

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Speaker 1: five children. They were all in their teens or somewhere

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Speaker 1: around that age. And Mark used to go around with

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Speaker 1: the big box and pick up all the laptops and

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Speaker 1: all the tablets and all the phones and put them

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Speaker 1: in the box, and they just stayed in his bedroom

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Speaker 1: near his bed. He woke up one morning at two

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Speaker 1: o'clock he could hear something in the bedroom. Two am.

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Speaker 1: Open his eyes, looks at the clock. Here's the sound.

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Speaker 1: Thinks I've got an intruderroom my bedroom. Flicks on the light,

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Speaker 1: ready to jump at whoever it is that's about to

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Speaker 1: steal everything from their bedroom. And it's their teenage son Commando,

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Speaker 1: crawling and his elbows across the carpet to get to

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Speaker 1: his screen so that he can play Fortnite at two

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Speaker 1: o'clock in the morning. Like, kids really really want access

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Speaker 1: to their devices. So, whether you're doing what Brad's studied

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Speaker 1: or just doing what our friend Mark did, there are

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Speaker 1: ways that you can control the WiFi, minimize access to

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Speaker 1: the Wi Fi, and therefore reduce your children's time on screens,

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Speaker 1: specifically at set times where you know they don't need

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Speaker 1: to be on their screen.

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Speaker 2: Like two o'clock in the morning.

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Speaker 1: Like two o'clock in the morning. Absolutely, what's number two?

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Speaker 1: So the second one is aligned with that, and that's

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Speaker 1: placing limits on the phone, placing limits on the mobile phone.

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Speaker 1: And that's been typically the route that we've taken. What

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Speaker 1: I love about this.

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Speaker 2: Is nothing set in concrete. The restrictions become fluid because

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Speaker 2: each of our girls needs change from time to time,

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Speaker 2: and as their relationships have matured and their relationships have

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Speaker 2: changed with their friends and the way they communicate with them,

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Speaker 2: sometimes the parental parameters that we've put in place don't

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Speaker 2: actually work for them anymore.

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Speaker 1: Right, And it's also not fair for the seventeen year

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Speaker 1: old to have the Wi Fi cut off and for

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Speaker 1: her to not have access to it because the thirteen

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Speaker 1: year old isn't allowed to have it. So having those

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Speaker 1: phone controls can make it can just make it much

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Speaker 1: more personalized filtering approach when it comes to screen access.

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Speaker 2: But what I love about this approach specifically, is that

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Speaker 2: it requires an adult to adult conversation. It requires a

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Speaker 2: willingness to sit in hard places and say, hey, Mum,

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Speaker 2: hey Dad, I'm really struggling at the moment because I

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Speaker 2: only get fifteen minutes on social media and it's the

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Speaker 2: only way I get to chat with my friends. And

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Speaker 2: by the time we've all kind of worked out what

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Speaker 2: we want to do, my fifteen minutes is up, and

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Speaker 2: now I don't know where we're meeting or whatever. You know,

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Speaker 2: Like I just I love that it makes them accountable

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Speaker 2: where it's going to go next.

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Speaker 1: And without children, we've sat down with them, maybe on

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Speaker 1: a Sunday to learn once every three months or every

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Speaker 1: six months and said, okay, let's go through the screen

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Speaker 1: time limits. Let's go through the apps that you're allowed

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Speaker 1: and how long you're allowed to be using them and

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Speaker 1: all that sort of thing, and we have found that

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Speaker 1: to be fairly effective. In my interview with Brad, he

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Speaker 1: pointed out that there are some challenges with this.

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Speaker 3: Parents that are using parental controls on phones and devices

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Speaker 3: and apps and games. They're incredibly poor, they're poorly designed.

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Speaker 3: There's easy ways to get around them, and you know,

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Speaker 3: we can go into where the tech companies designed them

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Speaker 3: that way on purpose or not.

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Speaker 2: We've definitely had that one happen.

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Speaker 3: Kylie.

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Speaker 1: You have limits on your phone and you get around them.

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Speaker 1: Let's be honest. I would never do such a thing.

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Speaker 1: Oh never, I just don't put limits on my phone.

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Speaker 1: After the break, we're going to discuss the other three

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Speaker 1: things that Brad has found can be useful in setting

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Speaker 1: clear boundaries for screams and kids in your home. Okay, Kylie,

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Speaker 1: let's hit number three. Setting clear boundary is around Wi

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Speaker 1: Fi being turned off at bedtime. This was Brad Marshall's

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Speaker 1: third strategy for managing, reducing, controlling, dealing with the challenges

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Speaker 1: that screens present in families. Clear boundaries around Wi Fi

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Speaker 1: being turned off at bedtime.

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Speaker 2: So this feels a lot like number one. I guess

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Speaker 2: the only difference is the entire houses Internet has turned

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Speaker 2: off at a certain timeframe as opposed to individual devices.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, if it's good for the goose, it's good for

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Speaker 1: the gander. My challenge here, and I discussed this with

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Speaker 1: Brad a little bit, and obviously i'll replay the whole

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Speaker 1: in view on Saturday. When I chatted with him about this,

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Speaker 1: the problem. The real difficult that we've got is that

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Speaker 1: you turn off the Wi Fi and if you're paying

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Speaker 1: for your kids phone plan, which many parents are, and

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Speaker 1: they're just on a regular phone plan rather than a

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Speaker 1: prepaid with really really tight limits, the kids will just

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Speaker 1: be like, we'm fine, I'll use my four G, I'll

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Speaker 1: use my five G. And that becomes a really big

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Speaker 1: issue now if you've got young children, he recommends, and

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Speaker 1: I'm with him on the there are phones that are

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Speaker 1: called the GME phones. A guy that used to be

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Speaker 1: on Channel nine as a tech expert. His name is

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Speaker 1: Charlie Brown, literally like the Charlie Brown, that's him. He's

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Speaker 1: developed this phone called the GME phone, and we'll link

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Speaker 1: to that in the show notes. I endorse it. I

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Speaker 1: recommend it. It allows parents to set up all of

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Speaker 1: the controls that are required in ways that the kids

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Speaker 1: can't get around them, like the Apple ones or the

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Speaker 1: Google ones. The kids can jailbreak those. These are good

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Speaker 1: controls and I recommend that. But ultimately this is essentially

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Speaker 1: saying you don't need the Wi Fi and all the time,

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Speaker 1: you don't need to be connected to your phone all

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Speaker 1: the time. And once again he found that this is effective.

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Speaker 1: Your note also that it typically, if it's done well,

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Speaker 1: involves a whole lot of parental involvement and monitoring.

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Speaker 2: I don't know if this actually comes up in your

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Speaker 2: interview or not, but I think one of the biggest

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Speaker 2: strategies for parents is once you gift your child a

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Speaker 2: phone that you start off from the very beginning.

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Speaker 1: With it is the strictest oneile literally absolutely.

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Speaker 2: Because I think what happens is we all think, oh,

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Speaker 2: my child, it's not going to be like that. We

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Speaker 2: have no realization of what this device will actually do

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Speaker 2: with our child.

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Speaker 1: It will absolutely supercharge their brain. It will pull them

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Speaker 1: in and they are helpless in the face of it.

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Speaker 1: They simply are helpless, especially once you let them, not

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Speaker 1: that any parents should, but once you let them go

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Speaker 1: to roade blocks, Minecraft, Fortnite, social media, Instagram, TikTok, Oh

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Speaker 1: my goodness. I mean, if there was ever an algorithm

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Speaker 1: that was addictive, this is the absolute pinnicle of it.

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Speaker 1: This is the challenge. And that's again why I like

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Speaker 1: the GM phone. I'm not it's not a sponsored post.

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Speaker 1: I'm not getting anything out of talk. In fact, I'm

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Speaker 1: going to get Charlie on the podcast and have a

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Speaker 1: chat within a couple of weeks because it's so important,

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Speaker 1: and lots of parents are look at buying their kids

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Speaker 1: phones right now. You and I recently discussed do we

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Speaker 1: get our eleven year old I a soon to be

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Speaker 1: eleven year old a phone. I mean, she's starting to

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Speaker 1: venture a little bit further afield, she's starting to be

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Speaker 1: a bit more adventurous and exploratory. Should we get her

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Speaker 1: a phone? And we don't have a landline in the

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Speaker 1: house anymore. Soon she'll old enough that we can leave

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Speaker 1: her in the home for an hour or two if

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Speaker 1: we want to step out. Should we get her a phone?

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Speaker 1: We've decided that we're going to go with delayed, delayed, delayed,

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Speaker 1: delay delay. But eventually she will get a phone, and

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Speaker 1: it will be one that we can absolutely lock down

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Speaker 1: with really rock solid parental controls, like the GME phone.

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Speaker 1: It's just a really useful option.

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Speaker 2: What about number four?

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Speaker 1: Okay, Number four is drawing up an agreement with your

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Speaker 1: child about daily screen limits.

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Speaker 2: I guess that taps in beautifully with what I was saying,

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Speaker 2: Like from the very beginning, there needs to be an agreement,

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Speaker 2: and there needs to be some really, really strict parameters,

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Speaker 2: and then there needs to be accountability because that's actually

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Speaker 2: probably the missing part correct to everything. We all start

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Speaker 2: off with this big kind of ideal of what we

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Speaker 2: want to happen, but then there's no follow through and

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Speaker 2: our kids work out very quickly that they can push the.

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Speaker 1: Boundaries spoiler alert. He found that this is not a

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Speaker 1: particularly effective tool, and research over the I mean, people

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Speaker 1: have been talking about phone contracts for more than a

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Speaker 1: decade now, and the re search has consistently shown it's

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Speaker 1: not particularly effective unless there's a high level of accountability.

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Speaker 1: And then you've got to make sure you don't sound

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Speaker 1: like a nag like there's work to be done to

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Speaker 1: get that right. But that's number four. Number five imploying consequences.

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Speaker 1: That is, you lose screen time if you break the rules.

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Speaker 1: Now I'm not big on consequences, as you know, but

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Speaker 1: in the interview that I have with Brad full replay

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Speaker 1: on Saturday, we're going to really unpack that and talk

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Speaker 1: about why this matters and some of the things that

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Speaker 1: I have to say about this might surprise anyone who's

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Speaker 1: followed me on Happy Families for any length of time,

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Speaker 1: because I think he's right in this case.

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Speaker 2: Well, it sounds like it will be a very informative

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Speaker 2: interview on Saturday, super practical and for any parent who

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Speaker 2: has a screen age child in their home, this is

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Speaker 2: probably one you want to air mark, bookmark whatever.

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Speaker 1: Maybe even listen to with your kids and listen to

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Speaker 1: that's on Saturday. The podcast with Dr Brad Marshall The

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Speaker 1: Unplugged Psychologists will drop then. The Happy Families podcast is

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Speaker 1: produced by Justin Ruland from Bridge Media. If you'd like

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Speaker 1: more information and more resources to make your family happier,

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Speaker 1: please visit us at happyfamilies dot com dot you