1 00:00:05,960 --> 00:00:09,000 Speaker 1: Starting today's podcast with a slightly saucy question, the men 2 00:00:09,039 --> 00:00:11,920 Speaker 1: who help out with the cognitive load and divide the 3 00:00:11,960 --> 00:00:17,040 Speaker 1: household labor nice and equitably in the home get how 4 00:00:17,040 --> 00:00:22,600 Speaker 1: do we say it luckier? We'll be discussing that in 5 00:00:22,640 --> 00:00:28,520 Speaker 1: our preview of our Saturday interview with Professor Leah Rappana, 6 00:00:28,600 --> 00:00:32,160 Speaker 1: who is a sociology professor at the University of Melbourne 7 00:00:32,240 --> 00:00:35,640 Speaker 1: and who studies cognitive load and how it works in households. 8 00:00:35,720 --> 00:00:39,840 Speaker 1: Are men pulling their weight? Are women doing too much? 9 00:00:40,040 --> 00:00:42,479 Speaker 1: Hello and welcome to the Happy Families podcast, Real Parenting 10 00:00:42,520 --> 00:00:46,280 Speaker 1: Solutions every day on Australia's most downloaded parenting podcast with 11 00:00:46,600 --> 00:00:47,960 Speaker 1: Justin and Kylie Coulson. 12 00:00:48,440 --> 00:00:51,720 Speaker 2: So I've always felt a little bit off when it 13 00:00:51,760 --> 00:00:55,639 Speaker 2: comes to these conversations around cognitive load, yeah. 14 00:00:55,640 --> 00:00:58,400 Speaker 1: Or sharing the hour household labor is divided. 15 00:00:58,640 --> 00:01:03,960 Speaker 2: Yeah, totally, because as a couple, our job is to 16 00:01:04,160 --> 00:01:06,920 Speaker 2: work as a team. If I was playing netball, I'm 17 00:01:06,920 --> 00:01:10,040 Speaker 2: not supposed to be on a fence and defense in 18 00:01:10,080 --> 00:01:14,880 Speaker 2: any one given movement, right. Sure, I have my lane, 19 00:01:15,280 --> 00:01:16,840 Speaker 2: and I keep to my lane. And as long as 20 00:01:16,880 --> 00:01:18,720 Speaker 2: I keep to my lane and everyone else in my 21 00:01:18,840 --> 00:01:22,160 Speaker 2: team keeps to their lane, the objective of getting the 22 00:01:22,200 --> 00:01:23,880 Speaker 2: ball from one end of the court to the other 23 00:01:24,360 --> 00:01:25,360 Speaker 2: eventually happens. 24 00:01:25,600 --> 00:01:27,160 Speaker 1: Something that stood out to me in my interview with 25 00:01:27,319 --> 00:01:30,160 Speaker 1: Professor Ropartner. I can't wait for this interview on Saturday. 26 00:01:30,200 --> 00:01:32,920 Speaker 1: It's such a great conversation. Something that really stood out 27 00:01:32,959 --> 00:01:36,640 Speaker 1: to me was she describes how you're right. It's not 28 00:01:36,680 --> 00:01:39,560 Speaker 1: meant to be transactional, and sometimes these conversations can turn 29 00:01:39,600 --> 00:01:41,960 Speaker 1: into a scorecard or a balance sheet. Are you doing 30 00:01:42,000 --> 00:01:45,000 Speaker 1: your fair share? Why am I doing so much? Having 31 00:01:45,000 --> 00:01:47,440 Speaker 1: said that, there are some men who don't pull their 32 00:01:47,480 --> 00:01:49,960 Speaker 1: weight and some women who don't as well, but I 33 00:01:49,960 --> 00:01:52,200 Speaker 1: hear mainly from women. He just comes home and sits 34 00:01:52,200 --> 00:01:55,120 Speaker 1: on the computer and games or looks at Facebook reals, 35 00:01:55,120 --> 00:01:57,639 Speaker 1: while I do everything, the kids, the house, the cooking, 36 00:01:57,680 --> 00:02:00,160 Speaker 1: the laundry, the whole lot. So I think we've got 37 00:02:00,160 --> 00:02:04,360 Speaker 1: to acknowledge that that is problematic, but in healthy, well 38 00:02:04,360 --> 00:02:09,360 Speaker 1: functioning relationships. What she hoglighted was that there's a difference 39 00:02:09,400 --> 00:02:14,600 Speaker 1: between daily tasks and episodic tasks, and it was a 40 00:02:14,639 --> 00:02:16,040 Speaker 1: distinction that I've never heard before. 41 00:02:16,560 --> 00:02:19,680 Speaker 3: With the mental load, you could have both partners carrying 42 00:02:19,720 --> 00:02:23,000 Speaker 3: both things right. The father and the family could be 43 00:02:23,160 --> 00:02:26,919 Speaker 3: thinking about, Okay, that dishwasher doesn't look well as breaking down, 44 00:02:26,960 --> 00:02:29,920 Speaker 3: it needs to be repaired, and the mother can be 45 00:02:29,960 --> 00:02:32,440 Speaker 3: doing the same work. Right, both people can be monitoring 46 00:02:32,600 --> 00:02:35,359 Speaker 3: the same thing because it's internal, it's your mental load, 47 00:02:35,720 --> 00:02:38,239 Speaker 3: and we're tracking it. And so this was one of 48 00:02:38,280 --> 00:02:40,560 Speaker 3: the things that we did find. Right, that fathers do 49 00:02:40,560 --> 00:02:43,119 Speaker 3: do more of those episotic tasks. They're much more likely 50 00:02:43,120 --> 00:02:47,120 Speaker 3: to say they're primarily responsible. But it's not an even split. 51 00:02:47,560 --> 00:02:49,520 Speaker 3: It's not like the fathers do it and the mothers 52 00:02:49,600 --> 00:02:51,400 Speaker 3: drop it. The mothers do it too. And you can 53 00:02:51,440 --> 00:02:52,840 Speaker 3: say the same thing when we look at you know, 54 00:02:52,960 --> 00:02:55,160 Speaker 3: the childcare and stuff like that. You know, father's picked 55 00:02:55,200 --> 00:02:58,280 Speaker 3: up pieces of this, pieces of the childcare, pieces of 56 00:02:58,320 --> 00:03:01,959 Speaker 3: the meal preparation. But the mental load is this really 57 00:03:02,280 --> 00:03:06,919 Speaker 3: different type of work that both people can be doing simultaneously. 58 00:03:07,440 --> 00:03:11,680 Speaker 3: It's invisible, it's boundaryless, it's never ending, and it's a 59 00:03:11,720 --> 00:03:13,480 Speaker 3: really different and distinct tape. 60 00:03:14,200 --> 00:03:19,320 Speaker 2: I think that she's really highlighted clearly that the cognitive 61 00:03:19,400 --> 00:03:24,480 Speaker 2: load that we're each experiencing carries a similar level of weight. 62 00:03:25,200 --> 00:03:31,600 Speaker 2: Now again in a relationship where there's a level of equality, Yeah, yeah, yeah. 63 00:03:31,520 --> 00:03:35,000 Speaker 1: Yeah, we're talking about healthy functioning relationships here, but. 64 00:03:35,640 --> 00:03:38,480 Speaker 2: You're thinking about the same things I'm thinking about, even 65 00:03:38,520 --> 00:03:40,120 Speaker 2: if you're not doing them right. 66 00:03:40,120 --> 00:03:42,200 Speaker 1: Because I'm sitting in my office writing a book, and 67 00:03:42,640 --> 00:03:44,640 Speaker 1: can I tell you the cognitive load of writing a 68 00:03:44,640 --> 00:03:50,440 Speaker 1: book is substantial. Carrying it feels like I've got five 69 00:03:50,480 --> 00:03:52,360 Speaker 1: grand piano stacked on top of me and I'm trying 70 00:03:52,360 --> 00:03:54,440 Speaker 1: to walk from the front door of the living room 71 00:03:54,440 --> 00:03:57,360 Speaker 1: carrying the pianos. It's a heavy load. But while I'm 72 00:03:57,360 --> 00:04:01,240 Speaker 1: writing the book, every now and again, I pause and think, ah, gee, dinner. 73 00:04:01,440 --> 00:04:03,280 Speaker 1: I wonder if we've got the right groceries. I wonder 74 00:04:03,320 --> 00:04:05,200 Speaker 1: if Kylie needs some help with it. I'd really like 75 00:04:05,240 --> 00:04:07,000 Speaker 1: to go in there and chop some vegetables or clean 76 00:04:07,040 --> 00:04:08,800 Speaker 1: up the kitchen. So you've got to clean bench space. 77 00:04:09,440 --> 00:04:12,040 Speaker 1: But I've got to carry this weight of these of 78 00:04:12,080 --> 00:04:15,960 Speaker 1: this book, the metaphorical five pianos on my back. So 79 00:04:16,000 --> 00:04:18,240 Speaker 1: there's this duplication where we're both thinking about it. The 80 00:04:18,240 --> 00:04:20,400 Speaker 1: cognitive load is there for each of us. It's weighty, 81 00:04:20,480 --> 00:04:23,719 Speaker 1: it's heavy, and as you said, I'm writing the book, 82 00:04:23,839 --> 00:04:26,640 Speaker 1: but you feel like you're carrying the cognitive load of 83 00:04:26,640 --> 00:04:28,760 Speaker 1: the book. You're not thinking about the book and its 84 00:04:28,839 --> 00:04:33,120 Speaker 1: contents so much. But you're thinking Justin's busy. He's doing 85 00:04:33,400 --> 00:04:36,479 Speaker 1: this and it's completely absorbing his life, which means that 86 00:04:36,560 --> 00:04:39,680 Speaker 1: I don't get access to him and the resource that 87 00:04:39,680 --> 00:04:41,880 Speaker 1: he would normally be for me. So I'm thinking about 88 00:04:41,920 --> 00:04:44,920 Speaker 1: the book all the time because it's taking him away 89 00:04:44,960 --> 00:04:47,599 Speaker 1: from the other areas that he could help. Is that 90 00:04:47,640 --> 00:04:48,159 Speaker 1: where you're. 91 00:04:48,000 --> 00:04:52,320 Speaker 2: Going, well kind of, But also I'm concerned about all 92 00:04:52,320 --> 00:04:54,080 Speaker 2: of the other things that you need to do that 93 00:04:54,279 --> 00:04:56,880 Speaker 2: are then weighing on you because you can't do them 94 00:04:56,960 --> 00:05:00,680 Speaker 2: because you're so absorbed in that. I think, while ever 95 00:05:00,760 --> 00:05:06,719 Speaker 2: we are creating a scorecard in our relationships about who's 96 00:05:06,760 --> 00:05:11,640 Speaker 2: doing more or who's thinking about things more, we've forgotten 97 00:05:11,839 --> 00:05:14,359 Speaker 2: the fact that we're part of the same team. 98 00:05:14,680 --> 00:05:16,920 Speaker 1: I would love to play. It turned into quite a 99 00:05:16,960 --> 00:05:20,200 Speaker 1: big conversation. I raised that with Professor Rapanna. I said, 100 00:05:20,560 --> 00:05:23,040 Speaker 1: what is the deal here? Like, why why are we 101 00:05:23,200 --> 00:05:25,800 Speaker 1: keeping score? Why is this transactional? I don't think that 102 00:05:25,839 --> 00:05:29,560 Speaker 1: it should be. She agreed, and we had this fascinating conversation. 103 00:05:29,800 --> 00:05:32,320 Speaker 1: Just can't fit into our preview episode today, but on Saturday, 104 00:05:32,800 --> 00:05:35,440 Speaker 1: you're here. Such a great answer to that very thing. 105 00:05:36,279 --> 00:05:39,719 Speaker 1: One last quick point before we go to the break. Recently, 106 00:05:40,120 --> 00:05:42,120 Speaker 1: as I was taking a break from writing the book 107 00:05:42,120 --> 00:05:44,120 Speaker 1: because I needed some headspace, I should have gone for 108 00:05:44,160 --> 00:05:46,160 Speaker 1: a walk and gotten some green rey into my eyes. 109 00:05:46,200 --> 00:05:49,159 Speaker 1: But I opened up a social media platform and watched 110 00:05:49,160 --> 00:05:52,080 Speaker 1: some short videos. But there was an interview with a 111 00:05:52,240 --> 00:05:58,480 Speaker 1: man who was asked about the challenges that men face mentally, 112 00:05:59,360 --> 00:06:02,280 Speaker 1: and he broke down as he said, people just don't 113 00:06:02,360 --> 00:06:05,800 Speaker 1: understand the weight that men carry. The good men carry, 114 00:06:05,839 --> 00:06:07,880 Speaker 1: men who are trying to contribute and provide for their 115 00:06:07,920 --> 00:06:11,000 Speaker 1: families and trying to pay off mortgages and do a 116 00:06:11,040 --> 00:06:13,760 Speaker 1: good job for their boss and look after their clients 117 00:06:13,800 --> 00:06:17,080 Speaker 1: or their colleagues, their customers, and you describe that weight. 118 00:06:17,200 --> 00:06:19,279 Speaker 1: And I don't want to turn this into a poor 119 00:06:19,360 --> 00:06:22,279 Speaker 1: men thing, but I want to highlight it because also 120 00:06:22,360 --> 00:06:25,919 Speaker 1: often the conversations around equality in the home and cognitive 121 00:06:26,240 --> 00:06:29,520 Speaker 1: load and division of labor in the home, they very 122 00:06:29,560 --> 00:06:31,600 Speaker 1: much say men aren't doing enough. 123 00:06:32,160 --> 00:06:35,680 Speaker 2: So here's the conversation, though, how many men will actually 124 00:06:35,760 --> 00:06:38,800 Speaker 2: share that load, will actually come home and talk about 125 00:06:38,839 --> 00:06:39,480 Speaker 2: the weight of them. 126 00:06:39,720 --> 00:06:42,080 Speaker 1: That's why that's why this guy broke down. He was like, 127 00:06:42,160 --> 00:06:43,240 Speaker 1: we don't tell anyone, You. 128 00:06:43,200 --> 00:06:48,279 Speaker 2: Don't tell any carry and therefore women are at home 129 00:06:48,600 --> 00:06:52,279 Speaker 2: carrying this load, and because your load is so heavy, 130 00:06:52,320 --> 00:06:56,960 Speaker 2: you can't hear their cries for the you know, to 131 00:06:57,000 --> 00:06:59,800 Speaker 2: be understood and to be helped in carrying the load 132 00:06:59,800 --> 00:07:02,080 Speaker 2: there carrying. But you're carrying such a huge load and 133 00:07:02,120 --> 00:07:05,680 Speaker 2: you're not asking for help either. The idea that we 134 00:07:05,720 --> 00:07:12,920 Speaker 2: would carry our loads individually is overwhelming. 135 00:07:13,440 --> 00:07:14,440 Speaker 1: I love how you said that. 136 00:07:14,600 --> 00:07:18,800 Speaker 2: But yet when we come together, even though each of 137 00:07:18,840 --> 00:07:21,400 Speaker 2: us are carrying a load that we're just almost not 138 00:07:21,560 --> 00:07:22,240 Speaker 2: capable of. 139 00:07:22,160 --> 00:07:24,360 Speaker 1: Carrying, shoulders are sagging. 140 00:07:24,720 --> 00:07:29,239 Speaker 2: If we would come together as partners on the same 141 00:07:29,360 --> 00:07:32,320 Speaker 2: team and share that load, all of a sudden, the 142 00:07:32,360 --> 00:07:35,800 Speaker 2: load hasn't shifted, The load has not changed in any way, 143 00:07:35,840 --> 00:07:38,040 Speaker 2: shape or form. It is still as heavy as it was, 144 00:07:38,400 --> 00:07:42,200 Speaker 2: but now we're shouldering it together. How powerful is that 145 00:07:42,560 --> 00:07:46,440 Speaker 2: in a relationship, if we're able to shoulder together and 146 00:07:46,480 --> 00:07:48,760 Speaker 2: carry that load. I know she talked about the fact 147 00:07:48,760 --> 00:07:53,440 Speaker 2: that we're duplicating in our worry, in our in the 148 00:07:53,480 --> 00:07:56,760 Speaker 2: heaviness of the load at times, But if we're shouldering 149 00:07:56,760 --> 00:08:01,680 Speaker 2: it together, then it's actually not a duplication. It's an 150 00:08:01,680 --> 00:08:04,880 Speaker 2: acknowledgment that I see you, and I'm concerned for you, 151 00:08:05,240 --> 00:08:06,000 Speaker 2: and how can. 152 00:08:05,840 --> 00:08:11,320 Speaker 1: I help compassion in relationships after the break? What happens 153 00:08:11,320 --> 00:08:14,520 Speaker 1: when men specifically take on a little bit more of 154 00:08:14,560 --> 00:08:27,280 Speaker 1: that cognitive load and make things more equal at home? Okay, Kylie? 155 00:08:27,320 --> 00:08:31,160 Speaker 1: Professor Lee Ripana from the Sociology Department at the University 156 00:08:31,160 --> 00:08:35,320 Speaker 1: of Melbourne. We're previewing my big conversation with her on Saturday. 157 00:08:35,520 --> 00:08:37,760 Speaker 1: This was one of the most fascinating interviews that I've done. 158 00:08:37,840 --> 00:08:40,000 Speaker 1: I was a little bit nervous. I tend to with 159 00:08:40,080 --> 00:08:42,640 Speaker 1: my background in psychology, I tend to sort of look 160 00:08:42,640 --> 00:08:44,480 Speaker 1: at sociology and go, oh, it's a bit of a 161 00:08:44,520 --> 00:08:48,880 Speaker 1: funny one, and it's never something that sat really well 162 00:08:48,920 --> 00:08:50,640 Speaker 1: with me, and this is one of those topics that 163 00:08:50,720 --> 00:08:53,079 Speaker 1: always kind of annoys me. We talk about a lot, 164 00:08:53,160 --> 00:08:55,280 Speaker 1: but as we've discussed in the first part of the pod, 165 00:08:55,520 --> 00:08:58,000 Speaker 1: it often feels transactional and it feels like it's very 166 00:08:58,000 --> 00:09:00,760 Speaker 1: female focused and ignores the stuff that a man is carrying. 167 00:09:01,440 --> 00:09:05,400 Speaker 1: So I asked the question that it comes up every time, 168 00:09:05,520 --> 00:09:07,280 Speaker 1: not every time, but quite often when we talk about 169 00:09:07,280 --> 00:09:09,840 Speaker 1: this topic or when there's news reports, media reports about 170 00:09:09,840 --> 00:09:13,920 Speaker 1: the topic. Division of labor when men do their share 171 00:09:13,960 --> 00:09:16,120 Speaker 1: and then some do. They get luckier. 172 00:09:16,880 --> 00:09:17,600 Speaker 2: They get it all. 173 00:09:18,280 --> 00:09:22,200 Speaker 3: Let me tell you something, they get everything. Oh yeah, 174 00:09:22,360 --> 00:09:24,680 Speaker 3: I'll tell you across and the research, like I've done 175 00:09:24,960 --> 00:09:28,000 Speaker 3: across the research. They get better sleep. Right like, if 176 00:09:28,040 --> 00:09:31,160 Speaker 3: you live in a more equitable, gender equal society. Let 177 00:09:31,160 --> 00:09:32,920 Speaker 3: me tell you the things you get. You get more 178 00:09:33,000 --> 00:09:37,000 Speaker 3: better sleep or high quality sleep. You get better health, 179 00:09:37,280 --> 00:09:41,680 Speaker 3: You're less riskier decisions. They're less likely to die. The 180 00:09:41,720 --> 00:09:44,280 Speaker 3: sex question, it's a little bit murky on that one. 181 00:09:44,960 --> 00:09:48,479 Speaker 3: But they have more sustained relationships, They have more life satisfaction. 182 00:09:48,679 --> 00:09:50,240 Speaker 3: Their partners are more satisfied. 183 00:09:51,000 --> 00:09:56,720 Speaker 2: Social media is full of reels of women who suggest 184 00:09:57,480 --> 00:10:00,120 Speaker 2: that if they see their husband taking out the trash, 185 00:10:00,200 --> 00:10:03,000 Speaker 2: or their husband changing their babies nappy, or their husband, 186 00:10:03,320 --> 00:10:05,920 Speaker 2: you know, vacuuming the floor doing some domestic labor, they 187 00:10:05,960 --> 00:10:07,199 Speaker 2: find them more attractive. 188 00:10:07,440 --> 00:10:09,400 Speaker 1: I don't know what your algorithms pumping out to you. 189 00:10:09,480 --> 00:10:13,040 Speaker 1: I've never seen any of those reels. Really, really, the 190 00:10:13,120 --> 00:10:17,760 Speaker 1: algorithm knows you something about you, something about you missus 191 00:10:17,760 --> 00:10:18,640 Speaker 1: happy families. 192 00:10:18,679 --> 00:10:20,800 Speaker 2: But I think that it's true you're. 193 00:10:20,640 --> 00:10:22,520 Speaker 1: Seeing you find me very appealing when I'm up to 194 00:10:22,559 --> 00:10:25,120 Speaker 1: my elbows in dishwater. Is that what you're saying. I'm 195 00:10:25,160 --> 00:10:27,760 Speaker 1: standing at the sink doing the benches in the kitchen. 196 00:10:27,920 --> 00:10:30,240 Speaker 2: Do you know, I don't actually think it's that I 197 00:10:30,360 --> 00:10:33,480 Speaker 2: find you more attractive in that moment. It's that you 198 00:10:34,120 --> 00:10:39,200 Speaker 2: alleviate some of the cognitive load that I'm carrying and 199 00:10:39,360 --> 00:10:43,800 Speaker 2: as a result, give me space to remember that you 200 00:10:43,800 --> 00:10:46,280 Speaker 2: do find me attractive, that I find you attractive. Yeah, 201 00:10:46,280 --> 00:10:47,840 Speaker 2: I actually think that that's what it is. 202 00:10:48,400 --> 00:10:49,720 Speaker 1: It's not about the task. 203 00:10:50,280 --> 00:10:53,920 Speaker 2: It's about the fact that you thought about me and 204 00:10:54,040 --> 00:10:56,319 Speaker 2: thought about a way that you could help. 205 00:10:56,679 --> 00:11:00,439 Speaker 1: Well. We will replay the entire interview on set. It's 206 00:11:00,480 --> 00:11:02,720 Speaker 1: a really delightful interview. I hope that you have joined 207 00:11:02,800 --> 00:11:07,240 Speaker 1: me for the full length conversation with Professor Lea Rapartner 208 00:11:07,320 --> 00:11:10,920 Speaker 1: talking about dividing labor in the home, cognitive load, all 209 00:11:10,960 --> 00:11:11,720 Speaker 1: that kind of stuff. 210 00:11:11,840 --> 00:11:14,960 Speaker 2: The take home message there's no I in team. Let's 211 00:11:14,960 --> 00:11:15,480 Speaker 2: work together. 212 00:11:15,920 --> 00:11:19,360 Speaker 1: The full interview replays on Saturday morning on the Happy 213 00:11:19,360 --> 00:11:22,520 Speaker 1: Families podcast, which is produced by Justin Ruwant from Bridge Media. 214 00:11:22,679 --> 00:11:25,840 Speaker 1: For more information and more resources to make your family happier, 215 00:11:26,240 --> 00:11:28,559 Speaker 1: visit us at happy families dot com dot au.