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Speaker 1: Already and this is the Daily This is the Daily OS.

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Speaker 2: This is the Daily ohs oh, now it makes sense.

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Speaker 3: Good morning and welcome to the Daily OS. It's Thursday,

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Speaker 3: the twenty seventh of June.

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Speaker 1: I'm Lucy, I'm sam.

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Speaker 3: On Tuesday night, Labour senator Fatima Payman did something no

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Speaker 3: Labor government member has done since nineteen eighty eight. She

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Speaker 3: crossed the floor to vote against her party. Payment risked

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Speaker 3: expulsion from the party to vote with the Greens on

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Speaker 3: a motion to officially recognize a Palestinian state urgently, which

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Speaker 3: is against Labour's current policy. On today's deep Dive, we'll

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Speaker 3: explain why Payment across the floor, what that actually means,

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Speaker 3: and what the consequences could be. But first, what's making headlines.

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Speaker 1: Inflation has risen to four percent in the twelve months

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Speaker 1: to May twenty twenty four. That's according to new figures

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Speaker 1: from the Australian Bureau of Statistics, marks the highest monthly

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Speaker 1: inflation in the last six months and the third consecutive

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Speaker 1: month where inflation has increased. It comes one month after

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Speaker 1: the federal government projected that inflation could drop to below

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Speaker 1: three percent by the end of the year. Alcohol and tobacco,

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Speaker 1: housing and transport have had some of the biggest price

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Speaker 1: increases over the past twelve months.

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Speaker 3: The federal government has approved a one billion dollar gas

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Speaker 3: drilling project in southern Queensland. The project will be undertaken

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Speaker 3: by a company partly owned by Australia's richest person, Gina

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Speaker 3: reine Hart. The Greens criticized the government's decision to approve

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Speaker 3: the project, saying it'll threaten Kohala habitats around the region's

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Speaker 3: Surat basin. Environment Minister Tinia Plebisk rejected those claims, however,

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Speaker 3: saying Koala habitat protection was one of the conditions for

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Speaker 3: approving the project.

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Speaker 1: Brazil Supreme Court has voted in favor of decriminalizing the

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Speaker 1: possession of marijuana for personal use. This decision brings the

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Speaker 1: country in line with most of South America. The ruling

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Speaker 1: will likely reduce the number of people charged with marijuana

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Speaker 1: possession who end up in Brazil's prisons. However, lawmakers are

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Speaker 1: still deciding on the maximum amount of the drug that

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Speaker 1: can be carried. Selling marijuana will remain a criminal offense

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Speaker 1: in the country.

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Speaker 3: And today's good news. New research is found a species

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Speaker 3: of butterfly which traveled forty two hundred kilometers over the

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Speaker 3: Atlantic Ocean. Research published with the University of Ottawa mapped

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Speaker 3: the flight of the painted lady butterflies after they were

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Speaker 3: spotted in South America, an area they're not native to.

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Speaker 3: By analyzing the DNA of poland that these butterflies were carrying,

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Speaker 3: scientists matched to plant species that grow in tropical parts

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Speaker 3: of Africa, allowing them to map the butterfli's transatlantic journey.

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Speaker 1: So Lucy, on Tuesday night, we were saying goodbye to

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Speaker 1: a couple of our teammates who are onto bigger and

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Speaker 1: better things in Australian media, and we were having a

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Speaker 1: glass of wine in the news room when suddenly you

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Speaker 1: and TA journalist Harry Sekelic saw something on TV that

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Speaker 1: made you both say words I've never heard before and

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Speaker 1: then run to your computers. The news was that Labor

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Speaker 1: Senator Fadam of Payment had crossed the floor. That means

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Speaker 1: that she voted against her party. Why was this such

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Speaker 1: a big deal, Well, it.

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Speaker 3: Probably should have been less of a surprise than it

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Speaker 3: was to us. Harry had been monitoring rumblings all day

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Speaker 3: in the parliamentary kind of media network that this was

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Speaker 3: something that was likely to happen, so it wasn't a

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Speaker 3: complete surprise, but certainly a big deal. The key thing

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Speaker 3: is that it's really, really, really rare for Labor members

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Speaker 3: to vote against their party, whether they're in government or not,

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Speaker 3: but especially when they're in government. And I think that's

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Speaker 3: really a big piece of context here.

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Speaker 1: So you're being very careful there and you're saying it's

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Speaker 1: rare for Labor members to vote against their party, not

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Speaker 1: members of other parties. Why is that the case for labor.

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Speaker 3: Well, I think you understand why that's the case for labor,

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Speaker 3: you have to know what the case is for other parties.

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Speaker 3: So in the opposition currently the Liberal and National Parties,

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Speaker 3: which is the coalition, most of the time, MPs and

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Speaker 3: senators are able to vote against their parties bills if

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Speaker 3: they don't agree with them. For Liberals, actually this is

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Speaker 3: considered quite important the Liberal Party. John Howard, former Prime minister,

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Speaker 3: described it as a broad church, which basically means there's

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Speaker 3: a lot of different opinions and stances that are grouped

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Speaker 3: together under the Liberal umbrella.

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Speaker 1: So is that basically the idea of like a conscience

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Speaker 1: vote yes exactly.

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Speaker 3: So it's often called a conscience vote or a free vote.

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Speaker 3: I would say the biggest one that I can think

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Speaker 3: of recently, I mean, just the first one that springs

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Speaker 3: to mind is the same sex marriage vote was a

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Speaker 3: free vote. And if you've ever seen the footage of

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Speaker 3: people in Parliament voting on that bill to basically approve

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Speaker 3: the results of the plebisite and legalize same sex marriage,

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Speaker 3: you can literally watch as almost every single person in

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Speaker 3: the House of Representatives walks over to one side of

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Speaker 3: the House of Representatives floor, So everyone in one party

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Speaker 3: sits on one side, everyone and another party sits on

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Speaker 3: another side. That's literally the meaning of crossing the floor.

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Speaker 3: So on something like that. There have been conscience votes

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Speaker 3: in the past. But to just circle back to why

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Speaker 3: these happen in the Liberal Party, you have to think

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Speaker 3: about all the different kinds of opinions that are within

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Speaker 3: the Liberal Party. Like I was thinking today, former New

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Speaker 3: Southwells Treasurer Matt Keane has just been appointed the head

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Speaker 3: of the Climate Change Authority, which is an independent government body.

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Speaker 3: In that same party, you've got current Opposition leader Peter Dutton,

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Speaker 3: who is very recently pro nuclear power, and Scott Morrison

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Speaker 3: who famously while he was Treasurer, brought a piece of

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Speaker 3: coal into the House of Representatives to be like, how

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Speaker 3: goods coal? Don't be afraid of coal. But all of

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Speaker 3: these people are literally within the same party, and.

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Speaker 1: I guess that's why John Howard made that expression of

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Speaker 1: broad Church kind of now synonymous with the Liberal Party.

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Speaker 1: How often though, in reality, I mean you mentioned the

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Speaker 1: same sexplodisite, but that's from a couple of years ago.

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Speaker 1: How often does this actually happen amongst that party?

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Speaker 3: Well, the numbers are fairly higher, but I think it's

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Speaker 3: mostly because there's really one person who's bringing up the average,

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Speaker 3: and that is Tasmanian Liberal Bridget Archer, who was elected

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Speaker 3: in twenty nineteen and has crossed the floor dozens of times.

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Speaker 1: Can you think of one time where she's done that?

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Speaker 3: Yes, well I can tell you are biggie, which is

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Speaker 3: when the newly elected Labor government voted to censure former

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Speaker 3: Prime Minister Scott Morrison for.

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Speaker 1: The multiple portfolios exactly from.

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Speaker 3: The multiple secret portfolios. We definitely covered this extensively at

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Speaker 3: the time. Basically, a censure motion you can do an

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Speaker 3: either house and it is not really binding in any way,

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Speaker 3: but it's basically just like a thumbs down from everyone.

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Speaker 3: It's to say collectively, we agree that you have done

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Speaker 3: something wrong and we're voting to censure you, not really punish,

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Speaker 3: but just to put, you know, like a black mark

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Speaker 3: next to your name.

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Speaker 1: Basically okay. So in that situation, Bridget Archer, she's part

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Speaker 1: of the Liberal Party. She crossed the floor to vote

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Speaker 1: against somebody in her own party. And that's a good

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Speaker 1: example of what crossing the floor can mean. So you've

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Speaker 1: broken down for me how it works in the Liberals

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Speaker 1: and in the Nationals. Now, let's get into the Labor Party.

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Speaker 1: What's the case there.

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Speaker 3: Well, basically the opposite. So when TDA journo Harry was

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Speaker 3: looking into this yesterday and the day before, he found

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Speaker 3: that no Labor member has voted against the party while

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Speaker 3: they're in government since nineteen eighty eight, so almost thirty years.

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Speaker 3: And that member in nineteen eighty eight, Graham Cash, actually

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Speaker 3: ended up losing his party endorsement later and having to

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Speaker 3: sit as an independent until nineteen ninety eight.

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Speaker 1: So if you get booted out of the Labor Party,

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Speaker 1: you don't actually have to leave parliament, right, you can

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Speaker 1: become an independent.

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Speaker 3: Exactly which we've seen people leave their parties all the

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Speaker 3: time and become independence. Like Lydia Thorpe last year or

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Speaker 3: the year before, I believe it was last year left

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Speaker 3: the Greens and now sits as a Senate independent.

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Speaker 1: And in the kind of contract that you sign up

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Speaker 1: to when you enter the Labor Party, is that written anywhere?

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Speaker 1: Like is this idea actually enshrined in text?

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Speaker 3: Well, according to the Australian Parliamentary Library quote, the Labor

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Speaker 3: Party has a formal pledge that binds all MPs to

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Speaker 3: support the collective decisions of the caucus. That's the MPs

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Speaker 3: and the Senators, basically everyone in the Labor Party who's

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Speaker 3: physically in parliam All of this is to say, basically,

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Speaker 3: Fatima Payman's move was a pretty rare and significant one.

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Speaker 1: And let's get into that move and talk a bit

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Speaker 1: more about Fatima Payman now. So she's the senator at

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Speaker 1: the center of why we're talking about this this week.

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Speaker 1: Before we unpack why she crossed the floor on Tuesday night,

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Speaker 1: give me a sense of her background.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, TDA actually interviewed her back in twenty twenty two,

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Speaker 3: a little bit after she was elected, and she talked

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Speaker 3: about her entry to the Labor Party.

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Speaker 2: Then if we want to make a difference and we

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Speaker 2: want to bring about change, you've got to do it

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Speaker 2: from within, and you've got to be part of that change,

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Speaker 2: you know, like Mahad mc gandhi says, be the change

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Speaker 2: you want to see in the world. And it's imperative

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Speaker 2: for each person to do their little bit. And so

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Speaker 2: I just started volunteering with the Labor Party.

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Speaker 3: First of all, she's a senator from Western Australia. She

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Speaker 3: was born in Afghanistan. She is twenty nine, which makes

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Speaker 3: her one of the youngest members of the Parliament across

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Speaker 3: any party. And she's also the first Australian member of

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Speaker 3: Parliament to a hitjob. And then last month she delivered

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Speaker 3: a statement describing Israel's invasion of Gaza as a genocide,

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Speaker 3: which is different to the government's official position on the war.

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Speaker 3: And after she said that, she actually ended up stepping

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Speaker 3: down from a number of the parliamentary committees she was

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Speaker 3: a member of.

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Speaker 1: Okay, so even as far back as twenty twenty two

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Speaker 1: when we talked to her, it was clear that this

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Speaker 1: was somebody who was going to vote exactly how she believed,

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Speaker 1: and she had flagged in this situation that she was

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Speaker 1: prepared to speak out about the government's official position on

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Speaker 1: the conflict in Israel and Gaza, and that kind of

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Speaker 1: brings us to Tuesday.

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Speaker 3: Night, right Exactually, that's when the Greens brought emotion to

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Speaker 3: the Senate to urgently recognize a Palestinian state. The government

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Speaker 3: voted against that motion, but she voted in favor of it,

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Speaker 3: and so she ended up literally crossing the floor of

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Speaker 3: the Senate to sit with the Greens and Independence David

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Speaker 3: Pocock and who I mentioned before, Lydia Thorpe.

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Speaker 1: I'm really interested in how this all played out. Just quickly,

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Speaker 1: what do you mean when you say emotion is that

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Speaker 1: like a piece of law? Is it something slightly different?

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Speaker 3: It's not like a law. So obviously bills are passed

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Speaker 3: through the houses of Parliament, they become laws. Emotion is

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Speaker 3: more like a notice that the government is aware of something,

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Speaker 3: or that the government believes that something should happen. So

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Speaker 3: just on this week's news, for example, a little while ago,

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Speaker 3: the government passed a motion that Julian Assan should be

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Speaker 3: allowed to return home. That wasn't a law that was

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Speaker 3: binding anyone to say, like we as the Australian government

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Speaker 3: have a legal responsibility to bring Julianassan's home. It was

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Speaker 3: just like a statement to say, yep, we as the

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Speaker 3: Australian government agree this should happen.

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Speaker 1: And so that's what the Greens did, and Fatima Payment

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Speaker 1: voted in line with the Greens. Did the government try

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Speaker 1: and offer any alternatives there, because clearly then she was

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Speaker 1: having her voice heard inside the party room.

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Speaker 3: So her vote actually came after the government had tried

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Speaker 3: to make changes to the motion qualifying that it would

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Speaker 3: recognize the Palestinian state quote as part of a peace

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Speaker 3: process in support of two state solution and adjust an

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Speaker 3: enduring peace, but that was kind of not considered enough

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Speaker 3: and so she ended.

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Speaker 1: Up voting with the Greens. Interesting, and I don't want

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Speaker 1: to go too much into the actual meet of the

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Speaker 1: geopolitical issue at stake here, but essentially that amendment from

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Speaker 1: the government was looking to mirror the words of the

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Speaker 1: US position on all of this. But for Fantoma Payment,

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Speaker 1: even with that amendment, she felt compelled to do something

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Speaker 1: that no Labour MP had done since the late eighties.

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Speaker 1: What did she say about that experience?

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Speaker 3: So she spoke to media right outside of the Senate

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Speaker 3: after the vote, and here's what she said.

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Speaker 4: We cannot believe in two state solutions and only recognize one.

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Speaker 4: I was not elected as a token representative of diversity.

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Speaker 4: I was elected to serve the people of Western Australia

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Speaker 4: and uphold the values instilled in me by my late father.

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Speaker 4: Today I have made a decision that would make him

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Speaker 4: proud and make everyone proud who are on the side

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Speaker 4: of humanity.

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Speaker 3: She also said that she knew she had risked actually

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Speaker 3: being kicked out of the party for doing this, but

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Speaker 3: she wanted to continue being a Labor member.

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Speaker 1: Right, so she would have looked at that example from

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Speaker 1: the eighties and gone, okay, well, the last person to

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Speaker 1: do this in the Labor Party, this is what happened

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Speaker 1: to him, so it might happen to me. Is she

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Speaker 1: actually going to be kicked out?

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Speaker 4: No?

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Speaker 1: Right, okay, that's interesting. What do we know about how

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Speaker 1: the party is receiving that move.

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Speaker 3: We know that yesterday Deputy Prime Minister Richard Miles spoke

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Speaker 3: to the ABC and he said she's definitely not going

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Speaker 3: to be expelled and she's not going to face serious

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Speaker 3: consequences for doing this. And the reason that he gave

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Speaker 3: for doing that was that he said there's so much

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Speaker 3: kind of division in the community that quote, now is

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Speaker 3: not a time to be going around expelling people because

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Speaker 3: they're expressing a particular opinion. Then in question time yesterday,

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Speaker 3: Prime Minister Anthony Albanize said he'd spoken to Fatima Payment

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Speaker 3: and he'd told her not to come to any of

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Speaker 3: the party's internal meetings that's caucus for the rest of

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Speaker 3: this parliamentary session. So basically, while parliament's sitting, which they

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Speaker 3: do for a couple of weeks at a time, she's

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Speaker 3: not supposed to come to those meetings, but she'll be

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Speaker 3: back later in the year.

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Speaker 1: That's really interesting, especially when I mean you talked about

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Speaker 1: that written pledge that Labor andps have to sign, and

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Speaker 1: then the Deputy PM comes out yesterday and says, well,

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Speaker 1: because of the nature of the topic, we're actually going

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Speaker 1: to kind of let people express their views how they want.

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Speaker 1: Even in the chamber, have other politicians said anything since

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Speaker 1: this happened.

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Speaker 3: Yes, So Marine Faruki, who's the Green's deputy leader and

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Speaker 3: she's the one who actually introduced the original motion that

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Speaker 3: Payment voted on. She told TDA that she commended Payment

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Speaker 3: for her immense courage, immense humanity and integrity in crossing

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Speaker 3: the floor. On the other hand, Deputy Liberal Leader Susan

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Speaker 3: Lee said Payment's dissenting vote showed quote week leadership from

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Speaker 3: the Prime Minister and she said it was going to

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Speaker 3: mean that other labor politicians were going to vote with

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Speaker 3: their conscience on particular issues.

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Speaker 1: And what's your sense on how true that statement from

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Speaker 1: Susan Lee is. I mean, is this to open the

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Speaker 1: door to more labor MPs taking up the option to

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Speaker 1: have a conscience vote.

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Speaker 3: I have to be honest since say, I don't know.

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Speaker 3: If it did, it would be a really big change

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Speaker 3: in the way that this government party operates. But I

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Speaker 3: think this is a very specific issue and I'll be

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Speaker 3: surprised if we end up seeing more of this.

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Speaker 1: It's a fascinating dynamic of our political institution that of

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Speaker 1: the two major parties they have very different approaches to

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Speaker 1: how somebody can vote. And it's almost like, you know,

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Speaker 1: being able to express your views has been pitted against

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Speaker 1: the strength of a team and there's no real right

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Speaker 1: or wrong answer here. I think it's just two different

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Speaker 1: approaches to the same problem. Lucy, thanks so much for

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Speaker 1: explaining that for us. Today and thank you for joining

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Speaker 1: us on the Daily Ods for that episode. If you

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Speaker 1: have a good day.

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Speaker 3: My name is Lily Maddon and I'm a proud Arunda

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