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Speaker 1: How often have you struggled to know what to say

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Speaker 1: when someone close to you is going through grief at.

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Speaker 2: The loss of a loved one?

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Speaker 3: What do you say?

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Speaker 1: How do you convey your compassion, your awareness of the

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Speaker 1: enormous loss. This podcast contains some mature themes. Listener discretion

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Speaker 1: is advised. I've heard myself say there are just no words.

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Speaker 1: So many times many people have chosen to say nothing

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Speaker 1: at all because well, what's the right thing to say?

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Speaker 1: Or everything happens for a purpose, or they're in a

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Speaker 1: better place right now. Colin Campbell is the author of

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Speaker 1: Finding the Words. It's a book about working through profound

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Speaker 1: loss with hope and purpose, and he makes the argument

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Speaker 1: that the way our society treats grief is not just backward,

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Speaker 1: it's cruel. He of all people knows. In twenty nineteen, Colin,

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Speaker 1: his wife Gail, and their two teenage kids were driving

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Speaker 1: late one night when a drunk and high driver going

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Speaker 1: almost one hundred and fifty kilometers an hour tea boned them.

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Speaker 1: Colin and Gail survived, their two children, Ruby and.

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Speaker 2: Hart did not. How does anyone live through that?

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Speaker 3: After that?

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Speaker 1: But perhaps just as important to discuss, how are we

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Speaker 1: to best support a friend, a colleague, a brother, a sister,

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Speaker 1: a grieving mother or father who literally does not know

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Speaker 1: how to go on after a tragic or profound loss.

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Speaker 3: Life brings grief.

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Speaker 1: That's a human reality, especially if we've loved well. I

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Speaker 1: recorded today's conversation with Colin and how he survived such

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Speaker 1: a loss about three weeks ago. Just last week, my

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Speaker 1: own family experienced tragedy. My nephew, Logan died by suicide.

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Speaker 1: He had just turned twenty with the best and kindest

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Speaker 1: of intentions. I heard people say there are no words,

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Speaker 1: over and over and over again to me. In his book,

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Speaker 1: Colin says there are no words is the perfect conversation killer.

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Speaker 1: It immediately ends any chance of a dialogue about grief.

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Speaker 1: It's telling the mourner that we can't really discuss their

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Speaker 1: grief because there are no words that would be applicable.

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Speaker 1: This empty phrase encapsulates all that is wrong in how

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Speaker 1: our society handles grief. This is perhaps the most powerful

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Speaker 1: and employ in conversation that we have ever had on

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Speaker 1: the Happy Families podcast, and it offers a far more

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Speaker 1: practical and helpful approach to grief to what we normally

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Speaker 1: see It's an important discussion and one that we need,

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Speaker 1: and we're breaking format. This is not a conversation for

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Speaker 1: the time poor parent who just wants answers now. This

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Speaker 1: is a conversation that we need to have.

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Speaker 2: And it will take as long as it takes. Please

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Speaker 2: join me.

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Speaker 3: We'll be right.

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Speaker 1: Back, Colin. Thanks for joining me for this conversation. Before

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Speaker 1: we talk about what happened. I'd really like to honor

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Speaker 1: your family to me, they're the main show in your life.

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Speaker 1: They're the main show in your book, even though it's

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Speaker 1: a book about grief. Can you tell me please about

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Speaker 1: your wife and your children.

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Speaker 3: Yeah? Absolutely, and thank you for having me both the way, Justin,

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Speaker 3: I appreciate it. So my wife is is a comedy

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Speaker 3: writer and also now a comedy director for television. So

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Speaker 3: she's very funny and humor has always been part of

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Speaker 3: our relationship in our lives, and we raised Ruby and

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Speaker 3: Heart to be they love a good joke as well.

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Speaker 3: So it was a very it was a very fun,

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Speaker 3: loving and comedic centric family. And so heart Heart I

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Speaker 3: always think of him as like a clown. He was

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Speaker 3: just a performer. He would just embody these characters who

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Speaker 3: were always outrageous, totally over the top, almost alien like,

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Speaker 3: and they were hilarious. Ever since he was a little kid,

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Speaker 3: he would just play these characters, and he was known

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Speaker 3: for them on the school yard, so people would request them,

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Speaker 3: so like, oh, you know, can you play so and so?

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Speaker 3: And he would become these characters and they're all larger

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Speaker 3: than life and ridiculous. And it started with Ruby because

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Speaker 3: she was the director. So she initially would put him

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Speaker 3: into clothes, costumes, wigs, dresses, heels, and send him into

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Speaker 3: the living room to perform for us.

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Speaker 2: The hell he is Ruby Yah.

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Speaker 3: Ruby's three years and one day older than Heart, so

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Speaker 3: the birthday was one day apart, so so hers was

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Speaker 3: March twenty ninth and his was March thirtieth, so three

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Speaker 3: years and a day later. And they were an amazing team.

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Speaker 3: And they squabbled, of course they squabbled, but they also

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Speaker 3: loved each other and they were extraordinarily kind. And so

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Speaker 3: Ruby was an artist and Heart was her biggest fan.

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Speaker 3: Everything she did he thought was just amazing. And he

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Speaker 3: was so earnest and honest with her, and she'd show him,

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Speaker 3: you know, a drawling and he would just be like,

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Speaker 3: oh my god, Ruby, that is amazing. It's just like beautiful.

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Speaker 3: See this fourteen year old boy just gushing over his

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Speaker 3: big sister's artwork. And she was bullied in middle school.

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Speaker 3: She had a hard time. She was struggling with OCD

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Speaker 3: and depression, and she was like she became a target

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Speaker 3: for anybody that wanted to bully somebody because she seemed

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Speaker 3: so vulnerable right in middle school kids, they attacked the

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Speaker 3: vulnerable kids. But then something beautiful happened. She she owned

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Speaker 3: and embraced her own sexuality. She came out. She became

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Speaker 3: as proud. I call her a lesbian warrior for social

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Speaker 3: justice because she was very social justice minded. And she

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Speaker 3: became so cool and so confident that not only did

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Speaker 3: all the bullying stop, but in fact, people bullying other

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Speaker 3: people stopped around her because she'd be like, knock it off,

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Speaker 3: don't bully that little kid just because he's a nerd,

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Speaker 3: and they wouldn't because she was so cool. And that

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Speaker 3: was a beautiful thing to see. To see her come

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Speaker 3: into her own it was quite extraordinary.

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Speaker 1: As I listened to you describe your children and your wife,

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Speaker 1: it sounds, I mean, it really sounds like the perfect family.

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Speaker 1: The white picket Fence the smiling children. It sounds so

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Speaker 1: it sounds so blissful. It sounds like.

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Speaker 3: It's well the dream. Yes, except there was that struggle

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Speaker 3: with OCD and depression that was very serious. So that

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Speaker 3: was suicidality and it was not all bliss for sure,

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Speaker 3: But luckily at the very end of her life she

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Speaker 3: did come out of that. You know, we've got the

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Speaker 3: great medication, the great therapists, and then it was it

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Speaker 3: really was, to my mind, I had the greatest family

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Speaker 3: in the world. My kids were the coolest. Honestly, that's

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Speaker 3: how I felt. My kids are the coolest kids in

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Speaker 3: the world. My wife's the coolest waife in the world. Yeah,

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Speaker 3: and that sounds absolutely.

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Speaker 1: The way you say it with the smile just makes

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Speaker 1: it even more real. Colin June twelfth, twenty nineteen, It

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Speaker 1: must be a date that creates enormous emotions for you.

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Speaker 1: What can you tell us about the events of that day?

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Speaker 3: Yeah, well, way, the evening leading up to it was

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Speaker 3: sort of the apogey of this perfect, boastful family because

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Speaker 3: we were on our way to Joshua Tree. It's one

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Speaker 3: of our favorite places on earth, the four of us.

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Speaker 3: We love scrambling these amazing rock formations out in the

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Speaker 3: high Desert. It's like two and a half hours east

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Speaker 3: of Los Angeles, very sparsely populated, extraordinary vistas in every direction.

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Speaker 3: It's just really beautiful, beautiful place. And we had just

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Speaker 3: put down an offer in a house like a little

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Speaker 3: a getaway shack, we called it, on the side of

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Speaker 3: the hill with amazing views. So the house is very simple,

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Speaker 3: but the views were extraordinary. That's all we really wanted,

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Speaker 3: and all four of us loved it, and we were

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Speaker 3: so excited. It was like a dream come true. We

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Speaker 3: could actually have our own place out there in the desert.

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Speaker 3: And we were driving there and it was wonderful. It

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Speaker 3: was like the school. It just ended the school year,

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Speaker 3: it ended Ruben Hart's work was all done. They were thrilled.

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Speaker 3: We were thrilled. And on the way, a drunken high

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Speaker 3: driver going ninety miles an hour tee boned the car

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Speaker 3: and Ruby and Hartt were killed in the backseat, and

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Speaker 3: Gail and I were wounded, but not that seriously. Certainly,

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Speaker 3: it was surreal, how okay we were compared to the

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Speaker 3: fact that our children were gone.

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Speaker 1: It sounds like you've just climbed the mountain. It sounds

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Speaker 1: like everything was there and in one unexpected second, it's not.

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Speaker 1: There are so many different questions that I have to

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Speaker 1: describe or ask you to describe the aftermath of what's happened.

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Speaker 1: What I'm most interested in when I think about how

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Speaker 1: I would react as a father with six daughters. How

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Speaker 1: do you I don't know if traverse is the right word,

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Speaker 1: but I'll use it. How do you traverse the days

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Speaker 1: and the weeks following the crash? How do you walk

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Speaker 1: into the house for the first time? How do you

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Speaker 1: walk past their bedroom for the first time.

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Speaker 2: It's the little things.

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Speaker 1: How do you how do you sit down at the

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Speaker 1: dining table with Gail and have a meal for the

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Speaker 1: first time, knowing that this is the near reality that

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Speaker 1: you don't have your kids anymore.

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Speaker 3: The terror is the first thing that comes to mind.

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Speaker 3: We were terrified to walk back into our house coming

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Speaker 3: back from the hospital, and that was surprising to me.

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Speaker 3: You know, I didn't understand why I was so scared.

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Speaker 1: I'd want to go, I'd want to go and check

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Speaker 1: into a hotel. I can't imagine walking into the house

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Speaker 1: and feeling the emptiness.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, well, it's interesting. It's like, and I know some

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Speaker 3: people who sell their home after they lose their child.

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Speaker 3: But in a way we couldn't because ruby and heart

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Speaker 3: stuff were there. Ruby was their heart, was there, our memories.

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Speaker 3: They grew up in that house, they were born in

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Speaker 3: that house, and so how could we leave? And so

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Speaker 3: there's this dual thing happening. It's like we need to

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Speaker 3: be in this house, and yet everywhere in the house

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Speaker 3: reminds us of what's gone's been taken from us, and

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Speaker 3: it's so painful. It's so painful and scary. And so,

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Speaker 3: in fact, you mentioned sitting the diningroom table, and that

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Speaker 3: was really hard. We had Gail's sisters took turns coming

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Speaker 3: out and staying with they're both on the East Coast,

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Speaker 3: Nina and Betsy, and they took turns staying with us,

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Speaker 3: just so that we could when we sat down at

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Speaker 3: the dinom table, it wasn't just the two of us

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Speaker 3: because it was too awful, you know, we couldn't take it,

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Speaker 3: the thought of sitting down at that table and just

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Speaker 3: be the two of us. So really, terror was uppermost

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Speaker 3: in my mind. And then and then the aching, horrible aching,

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Speaker 3: and the aching stays with me. I'm not I'm not

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Speaker 3: as terrified now, But but the aching for them is

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Speaker 3: very difficult. Yeah, to endure.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, you're right that a profound loss is, and I'm

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Speaker 1: quoting from the book here, a profound loss is when

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Speaker 1: you lose someone who you feel is entwined intrinsically with

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Speaker 1: your own identity. In other words, you define yourself partly

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Speaker 1: in terms of this other person. Close quote. So, I

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Speaker 1: think this is the thing that struck me most. Your

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Speaker 1: sense of self is that you're Dad, That's who you are.

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Speaker 1: And then this impossibly well it's not impossible to describe,

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Speaker 1: but in this incredibly cruel moment, that identity is forever altered.

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Speaker 1: Every time you meet somebody for the first time and

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Speaker 1: they say, so, tell me about your family. Have you

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Speaker 1: got kids, you must have to. You have to think

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Speaker 1: so hard about how you're going to answer that.

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Speaker 3: How do you bring this up?

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Speaker 1: How do you talk about profound loss and identity and

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Speaker 1: particularly what it meant for you? Again, the question, I

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Speaker 1: guess is how do you process this from an identity standpoint.

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Speaker 3: Two things I want to talk about and I hope

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Speaker 3: that I can remember, But the identity was really central

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Speaker 3: to me, and I kind of I like this definition

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Speaker 3: that I came up with for profound loss because I

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Speaker 3: feel like it's generous in the sense that the griever

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Speaker 3: gets to decide if it's a profound loss. Right, somebody

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Speaker 3: loses their parent, and somebody else doesn't have a close

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Speaker 3: relations to their parent, they think it's no big deal.

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Speaker 3: But to the one person who lost their parent, maybe

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Speaker 3: it is. Maybe it's a central idea of who they are.

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Speaker 3: They are so and so sign or daughter. That's how

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Speaker 3: they identify. So I like that the griever decides what's profound,

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Speaker 3: not somebody else. You know, it's who they think. It's

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Speaker 3: important to who they are as a human. And then

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Speaker 3: to have that gone for me was so destabilizing because

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Speaker 3: I literally, while they were alive, I did find myself

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Speaker 3: as Reubenhart's dad. I wasn't suddenly after they were gone

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Speaker 3: that's who I was. I took such pride in being

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Speaker 3: their dad. I was so proud of them. It was

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Speaker 3: so important to who I was as a human. And

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Speaker 3: then they were gone and I couldn't At first, I

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Speaker 3: couldn't accept it that I was the father of two

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Speaker 3: dead children. I was so resistant to that. But then

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Speaker 3: as my grief evolved, it changed, it shifted and I

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Speaker 3: kind of clung to that identity. It became important to

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Speaker 3: me because it was like, I need to honor Ruby

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Speaker 3: and Hart at all times. So I'm Colin Campbell. I'm

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Speaker 3: the father of two children who were killed by a

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Speaker 3: drunk driver, Ruby and Heart. That was my identity suddenly,

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Speaker 3: and that was important to me that I acknowledge it.

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Speaker 3: And I like this sort of the PSA quality to it. Right.

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Speaker 3: If I'm talking to somebody and they hear this, maybe

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Speaker 3: that could save a life, because maybe they'll think twice

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Speaker 3: next time before they drink and drive. And you know,

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Speaker 3: I don't know. But then as time progressed even further,

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Speaker 3: I had to shift my identity again, and each shift

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Speaker 3: was painful to me. It was hard to change. But

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Speaker 3: now I don't think of myself primarily as the father

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Speaker 3: of two dead children. It's a central part of my identity,

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Speaker 3: but it's not necessarily the first thing that I say

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Speaker 3: when I meet somebody new, you know what I mean,

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Speaker 3: Whereas before it was it was really important on the

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Speaker 3: first day of class. I'm a professor, and so on

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Speaker 3: the first day of class, I tell my students I'm

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Speaker 3: Colin Gamble and I'm grieving the loss of my two children.

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Speaker 3: They were killed by a drunk driver and so, which

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Speaker 3: was intense to tell students on the first day, but

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Speaker 3: I had to. It was too important to me, right

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Speaker 3: And now I don't have to, and that's also hard.

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Speaker 3: It's hard to let go of that, you know. In

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Speaker 3: a way, it's like every stage of this evolving identity

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Speaker 3: has been involved in it.

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Speaker 1: I think you want so much to honor them and

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Speaker 1: to highlight that they are they are still part of

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Speaker 1: your life. And yet over time, I mean it's been

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Speaker 1: over four years now. I guess what I'm hearing you

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Speaker 1: say is the relevance of that conversation to the lives

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Speaker 1: of the people you're interacting with may not be quite

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Speaker 1: as substantive as you Perhaps you gave it more weight earlier.

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Speaker 3: On Yeah, I was more like I need to tell

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Speaker 3: you right now, And now I think it all the time.

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Speaker 3: I think about Ruber Higher all the time, But I

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Speaker 3: don't need to tell you necessarily about them all the time.

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Speaker 3: That makes sense, Like my need for it is quieted.

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Speaker 1: This is a time thing, right, Like there is a process,

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Speaker 1: there's an evolution with grief. I'd imagine that the acuteness

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Speaker 1: of what was happening in those first days, the weeks,

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Speaker 1: and months must be so different to the passage of time,

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Speaker 1: allowing you to be four years down the track and

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Speaker 1: even say what you're saying with me.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, And I think it's not just time, because I

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Speaker 3: don't think that time heals our wounds. So I don't

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Speaker 3: think heals any of my wounds. But I have changed.

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Speaker 3: My relationship to pain and grief has changed. But I

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Speaker 3: think it's because of the time I've spent engaged in

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Speaker 3: my grief. I think if people are avoiding grief, then

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Speaker 3: they're not progressing through in a way. You can be

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Speaker 3: stuck and time can pass, but it doesn't change anything,

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Speaker 3: you know what I mean. But I think it's a

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Speaker 3: magical bomb.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, that's exactly where I want to take it now.

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Speaker 2: But I want to I don't want to talk.

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Speaker 1: About how the griever either avoids or steps into their grief.

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Speaker 1: I want to talk about the people who are around

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Speaker 1: you and their avoidance of grief, which which in many

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Speaker 1: ways is where the book begins. And I think it

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Speaker 1: was what really struck me. You take a very very

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Speaker 1: strong and direct approach to people who are around you

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Speaker 1: in terms of advocating for your needs as you go

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Speaker 1: through this grief process through the book, you're very courageous

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Speaker 1: with others and also with yourself in some really challenging ways.

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Speaker 1: The emails that you write, the way that you talk

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Speaker 1: to people about things. One example, right after your only

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Speaker 1: two children in the world are kill you point to

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Speaker 1: what would be called the or what you call the

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Speaker 1: grief orthodoxy, and you make the point that people, well

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Speaker 1: intentioned people would say things like I couldn't live if

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Speaker 1: that happened to me, I'd kill myself, or they'd say Colin,

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Speaker 1: there are no words. There are no words, which is

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Speaker 1: something that I know that I've said before, and when

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Speaker 1: I read it in your book, I felt very guilty

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Speaker 1: about it.

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Speaker 2: There is a question here, The question is this Your

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Speaker 2: response to that in the book was so impactful for me.

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Speaker 1: I'd love for you to talk about what your reaction

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Speaker 1: is to those comments, because you didn't kill yourself and

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Speaker 1: there are words.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, So I want to I do want to make

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Speaker 3: clear that I don't want you to feel bad about

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Speaker 3: saying that. I think some people, you know, I wrote

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Speaker 3: an op ed in the Atlantic, and some people were like,

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Speaker 3: these people are just trying to be nice. Why are

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Speaker 3: you scolding them? And like, I never scolded anybody. Just

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Speaker 3: for the record, anybody that said that to me, I

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Speaker 3: never said, like, hey, don't say that to me, because

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Speaker 3: I knew what they were saying, why they were saying it.

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Speaker 3: It made a lot of sense. You know, you're saying

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Speaker 3: there are no words because you're trying to express the

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Speaker 3: depths of the horror that I'm in, and it's apt

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Speaker 3: to say there are no words that I can say

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Speaker 3: that's gonna, you know, touch the horror of your reality.

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Speaker 3: But what happened was I was told that so many

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Speaker 3: times in early grief, so many times, hundreds, literally hundreds

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Speaker 3: of times people would say there are no words to me,

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Speaker 3: and very often the conversation would end there that would

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Speaker 3: be it, because there are no words, and I needed

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Speaker 3: to talk about my grief. I needed to talk about

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Speaker 3: ruby and heart. And so I started to think, because

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Speaker 3: I'm kind of a trarian, have to admit, and so

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Speaker 3: if two hundred people say there are no words to me,

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Speaker 3: I'm going to be like, wait a minute, is that true?

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Speaker 3: Are there really no words? And I found no, there

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Speaker 3: are words. There are people who come up to me

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Speaker 3: and they talk about rubying heart or they ask me

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Speaker 3: about my grief, how my grief is doing that moment,

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Speaker 3: and we can have a conversation about it. And nobody's

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Speaker 3: finding the perfect words. Nobody's finding words that are they're

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Speaker 3: going to solve my problem that I can't. No one

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Speaker 3: can fix my pain, No one can take away my pain,

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Speaker 3: no one can even give me comfort, honestly, But to

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Speaker 3: be able to talk about rubying heart and my grief

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Speaker 3: to somebody, especially with somebody who knew them, is transformative

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Speaker 3: in my experience of grief. I feel like I'm not alone.

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Speaker 3: I feel like there are other people who are grieving

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Speaker 3: them we can talk about that, and it helps me immensely.

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Speaker 2: For somebody who is grieving, how does a friend approach them?

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Speaker 2: What do we say?

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Speaker 3: What the woods? Yeah, yeah, yeah, that's a great question.

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Speaker 3: And I think so many of the words that come

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Speaker 3: off wrong are words that are attempting to give comfort,

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Speaker 3: because if you're trying to comfort somebody on some level,

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Speaker 3: you're trying to take away their pain. You're trying to

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Speaker 3: tell them maybe stop crying now, right, And in fact,

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Speaker 3: I believe a person who has lost a loved one

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Speaker 3: inevitably is going to feel pain. They need to feel

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Speaker 3: that pain. It's the flip side of love. You know

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Speaker 3: that if you've loved someone so so deeply and they're

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Speaker 3: gone from earth, they're gone from your life, you have

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Speaker 3: to allow yourself to feel the pain of that loss

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Speaker 3: in order just to be present, in order to be

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Speaker 3: present in this life without them. Otherwise you're in denial.

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Speaker 3: That's another way to go where you can compartmentalize and

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Speaker 3: pretend it didn't happen, or pretend you're thinking about it.

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Speaker 3: And there's always that temptation, and we all do that,

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Speaker 3: me included. But I feel like being allowed to express

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Speaker 3: my pain is so helpful. And so so if someone's

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Speaker 3: saying things like they're trying to come for me, like oh,

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Speaker 3: they're in a better place, or well, you could adopt

379
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Speaker 3: other kids, or you know, some kind of replacement, or

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Speaker 3: at least you had seventeen years with Ruby and fourteen

381
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Speaker 3: with heart. Those are all sort of nice things, But

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Speaker 3: the unstated implication is, so stop grieving so much.

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Speaker 2: Right, everything happens for a Raisin column.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, everything happens for a reason, So maybe you can

385
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Speaker 3: stop stop your grieving, you know, And those seem very

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Speaker 3: unhelpful to me. So the most helpful things that I've

387
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Speaker 3: encountered were people who are simply sharing rubying heart stories,

388
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Speaker 3: or sharing how much they love Ruby and Heart and

389
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Speaker 3: missed them, or how much they love me and want

390
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Speaker 3: to spend time with me even though I'm grief stricken

391
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Speaker 3: and maybe not so not so friendly or palatable. Or

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Speaker 3: also if they if they're asking me about my grief,

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Speaker 3: you know, how is my how's my grief today? Acknowledging it,

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Speaker 3: acknowledging that when I wake up this morning, I had

395
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Speaker 3: I had a hard time because I had to deal

396
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Speaker 3: with the thought that yep, another day and Ruby hard

397
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Speaker 3: is still gone. But I got to get out of bed.

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Speaker 3: You know, I was gonna I was gonna address your

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Speaker 3: other question, which is about this. I would just die,

400
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Speaker 3: right My kids would be killed out. I would just die.

401
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Speaker 3: And I heard that several times, and that felt very

402
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Speaker 3: unhelpful to me, because on the one hand, it felt

403
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Speaker 3: like me. It felt to me the implication was if

404
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Speaker 3: they must love their kids more than I love my kids,

405
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Speaker 3: because if their kids died, they would just kill themselves

406
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Speaker 3: and I didn't, so I must not really love my

407
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Speaker 3: kids as much. Right, That's the implication, And the truth is,

408
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Speaker 3: you don't really just spontaneously die. You would have to

409
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Speaker 3: actively end your life. And here I am in grief,

410
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Speaker 3: seeing how awful it is to endure such painful loss.

411
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Speaker 3: If I ended my life, what would that do to

412
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Speaker 3: my wife, or my mom, or my brother, sister, all

413
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Speaker 3: the people that love me? How could I intentionally and

414
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Speaker 3: Ruby Heart were murdered? How could I intentionally take my

415
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Speaker 3: own life and plunge my whole community into more grief?

416
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Speaker 3: And also, how is that going to honor Ruby in heart?

417
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Speaker 3: I want to stay alive so I can honor Ruby

418
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Speaker 3: in heart. And that was the thought that I had,

419
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Speaker 3: was like if if I die, if I died and

420
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Speaker 3: people that loved me killed themselves, I'd be bummed. I'd

421
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Speaker 3: be like, wait, no, so you stay alive. You're supposed

422
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Speaker 3: to tell Colin stories, right, You're supposed to stay alive

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Speaker 3: and talk about me.

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Speaker 2: So.

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Speaker 3: And then on top of that was Ruby's suicidality. So

426
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Speaker 3: she struggled with suicidality, and in a sense she overcame

427
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Speaker 3: that You you don't just overcome depression, but she had

428
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Speaker 3: it managed. She wanted to live. She fought for her life,

429
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Speaker 3: and I couldn't. I couldn't dishonor her memory and her

430
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Speaker 3: struggle by taking my own life. So it felt like

431
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Speaker 3: to me when people made that comment or I would

432
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Speaker 3: just kill myself, it felt very flippant. It felt like

433
00:24:17,359 --> 00:24:19,960
Speaker 3: they weren't really thinking about it in a deep, deep way.

434
00:24:20,119 --> 00:24:24,000
Speaker 3: They were just saying it. It felt easy for them

435
00:24:24,080 --> 00:24:26,320
Speaker 3: to say that, and I don't. It's not easy for me.

436
00:24:26,359 --> 00:24:27,960
Speaker 3: I have to actually think about it, you know what

437
00:24:28,080 --> 00:24:31,119
Speaker 3: I mean. It's like, dude, I actually have to think

438
00:24:31,160 --> 00:24:32,639
Speaker 3: about it. Do I end my life or not? And

439
00:24:32,760 --> 00:24:34,280
Speaker 3: I have to think about what that means to other

440
00:24:34,400 --> 00:24:37,800
Speaker 3: human beings. And it's a rough road either way. And

441
00:24:37,920 --> 00:24:39,959
Speaker 3: you just sort of saying I would just kill myself

442
00:24:41,040 --> 00:24:45,119
Speaker 3: is offensive to me because you have the privilege, not you,

443
00:24:45,280 --> 00:24:47,320
Speaker 3: but the person who said that to me has a

444
00:24:47,440 --> 00:24:50,240
Speaker 3: privilege of just sort of tossing it off as opposed

445
00:24:50,280 --> 00:24:53,200
Speaker 3: to actually thinking about the reality.

446
00:24:53,440 --> 00:24:56,840
Speaker 1: You know, you've been through an experience that most people

447
00:24:56,840 --> 00:25:00,919
Speaker 1: would not actually be able to really step into an

448
00:25:00,960 --> 00:25:04,280
Speaker 1: imagine enduring so much so that you've gone and written

449
00:25:04,280 --> 00:25:07,560
Speaker 1: a book about number one, the grief process and how

450
00:25:07,600 --> 00:25:11,080
Speaker 1: it exists in our culture at the moment. And I

451
00:25:11,160 --> 00:25:13,280
Speaker 1: think that you're actually quite strong on saying that we

452
00:25:13,400 --> 00:25:16,520
Speaker 1: do not handle it in healthy ways right now in

453
00:25:16,600 --> 00:25:19,240
Speaker 1: our culture at all. I'm wondering if this was something

454
00:25:19,280 --> 00:25:23,480
Speaker 1: that you grew up with, were you always grief aware?

455
00:25:23,800 --> 00:25:25,880
Speaker 1: And the reason I ask it is because I've written

456
00:25:26,000 --> 00:25:28,760
Speaker 1: blog posts and articles and done podcasts on topics like this,

457
00:25:29,119 --> 00:25:32,320
Speaker 1: and I think that I've been empathic and given good advice.

458
00:25:32,400 --> 00:25:37,600
Speaker 1: But the profundity in what you've said and your solutions

459
00:25:37,640 --> 00:25:41,000
Speaker 1: and strategies, the way that you've honored your children and

460
00:25:41,160 --> 00:25:43,640
Speaker 1: honored your grief but also shown other people a roadmap

461
00:25:44,160 --> 00:25:50,320
Speaker 1: through their grief, seems particularly well, it's deep, it's really,

462
00:25:50,560 --> 00:25:53,200
Speaker 1: it's just so thoughtful. I'm just curious whether your background

463
00:25:53,520 --> 00:25:54,119
Speaker 1: taught you that.

464
00:25:55,440 --> 00:26:01,120
Speaker 3: No, absolutely, of the exact opposite, right. My family upbringing

465
00:26:01,240 --> 00:26:04,600
Speaker 3: was I call it grief averse. So we did not

466
00:26:05,760 --> 00:26:12,000
Speaker 3: talk about grief much at all, honestly, so not religious

467
00:26:12,000 --> 00:26:15,120
Speaker 3: back like that, right, No, So, so my parents were

468
00:26:15,240 --> 00:26:20,080
Speaker 3: raised as Protestants, and they rebelled in their like twenties,

469
00:26:21,000 --> 00:26:24,159
Speaker 3: and we're atheists, are atheists. My father passed away, but

470
00:26:24,680 --> 00:26:28,160
Speaker 3: and they raised us without you know, any kind of religion,

471
00:26:28,320 --> 00:26:30,520
Speaker 3: and and all three of us, my brother and sister,

472
00:26:30,600 --> 00:26:34,440
Speaker 3: older brother and sister, We're we're all very happy atheists.

473
00:26:34,800 --> 00:26:39,320
Speaker 3: We enjoy we enjoy our our lack of belief in

474
00:26:39,400 --> 00:26:44,399
Speaker 3: a supreme being. But here when it came time to grieve,

475
00:26:46,000 --> 00:26:50,480
Speaker 3: that tradition for me didn't didn't have any cultural tools

476
00:26:50,680 --> 00:26:56,880
Speaker 3: for managing grief. So I leaned heavily on the Jewish traditions.

477
00:26:57,160 --> 00:26:59,160
Speaker 1: Yeah, I was going to ask you. Hearing you describe

478
00:26:59,160 --> 00:27:01,240
Speaker 1: your background make me even more intrigued because in the

479
00:27:01,280 --> 00:27:06,359
Speaker 1: book you talk about how your community came together. I wondered,

480
00:27:06,680 --> 00:27:09,720
Speaker 1: to what extent the Jewish faith, which your wife, Gail

481
00:27:09,800 --> 00:27:14,639
Speaker 1: is Jewish, how much that community and that faith actually

482
00:27:15,200 --> 00:27:19,000
Speaker 1: provided some kind of, I don't know, a rocker foundation,

483
00:27:19,080 --> 00:27:22,000
Speaker 1: a framework, a way forward for you. Could you talk

484
00:27:22,040 --> 00:27:25,159
Speaker 1: about the way religion, even though you don't have a

485
00:27:25,200 --> 00:27:28,119
Speaker 1: religious bone in your body, Religion actually, I guess shepherd

486
00:27:28,200 --> 00:27:29,640
Speaker 1: you through this grief process.

487
00:27:30,280 --> 00:27:34,560
Speaker 3: Honestly, because you know, I'm a religious so it wasn't

488
00:27:34,560 --> 00:27:38,080
Speaker 3: the religious component, but more the cultural component. And I

489
00:27:38,160 --> 00:27:40,720
Speaker 3: think it sort of helped me because it helped me

490
00:27:40,800 --> 00:27:44,359
Speaker 3: to analyze what these Jewish traditions were really about for me,

491
00:27:45,160 --> 00:27:48,040
Speaker 3: because they're all on one level about God, but for me,

492
00:27:48,080 --> 00:27:50,720
Speaker 3: they're not at all about God. They're about how do

493
00:27:50,760 --> 00:27:54,040
Speaker 3: you process grief? And I figured, you know, Jews had

494
00:27:54,080 --> 00:27:56,800
Speaker 3: thousands of years to think about this and work it out.

495
00:27:57,080 --> 00:27:59,640
Speaker 3: And if there are rules about grieving, I bet there's

496
00:27:59,800 --> 00:28:02,840
Speaker 3: like practical reasons for them. And and sure enough it

497
00:28:02,920 --> 00:28:07,720
Speaker 3: felt very practical to me. All the customs and traditions

498
00:28:07,800 --> 00:28:12,280
Speaker 3: that that I was exposed to all had deep practical

499
00:28:12,400 --> 00:28:14,600
Speaker 3: meaning for me. That literally taught me how to grieve.

500
00:28:15,440 --> 00:28:17,560
Speaker 3: Uh So the whole idea of even grieving in community,

501
00:28:17,640 --> 00:28:21,520
Speaker 3: that that's from the Jewish traditions. So so, just to

502
00:28:21,600 --> 00:28:25,040
Speaker 3: name name a few of them. Uh, you you have

503
00:28:25,160 --> 00:28:29,520
Speaker 3: to say the mourner's Cottish it's it's a prayer for

504
00:28:29,640 --> 00:28:32,080
Speaker 3: the dead, but you are not allowed to say it alone.

505
00:28:32,760 --> 00:28:34,320
Speaker 3: You have to say it with at least nine other

506
00:28:34,400 --> 00:28:35,159
Speaker 3: people present.

507
00:28:35,520 --> 00:28:38,160
Speaker 2: And when do you say this moren is Scottish.

508
00:28:38,920 --> 00:28:40,600
Speaker 3: We're supposed to say it every day for the first

509
00:28:40,720 --> 00:28:46,080
Speaker 3: year with nine others. Yes, yes, Now we didn't say

510
00:28:46,080 --> 00:28:51,479
Speaker 3: it every day. We went weekly. We went weekly and uh.

511
00:28:52,240 --> 00:28:54,480
Speaker 3: And there are different rules for different losses as well.

512
00:28:54,560 --> 00:28:57,959
Speaker 3: So and again I'm not a rabbi, so I think

513
00:28:58,080 --> 00:29:02,040
Speaker 3: technically for child loss it's not every day but is

514
00:29:02,080 --> 00:29:06,120
Speaker 3: out of the point. The idea is that you grieve

515
00:29:06,560 --> 00:29:11,520
Speaker 3: with people, so inevitably, I'm saying this prayer in Hebrew

516
00:29:12,800 --> 00:29:16,080
Speaker 3: and there are people a mending me, and I'm I'm

517
00:29:16,120 --> 00:29:19,440
Speaker 3: going to weep. Right, I can't get through the mourners

518
00:29:19,480 --> 00:29:23,560
Speaker 3: collageespecially in early grief, without without crying and I and

519
00:29:23,680 --> 00:29:25,840
Speaker 3: I have to do it with people standing around me

520
00:29:26,800 --> 00:29:29,960
Speaker 3: with love. And isn't that beautiful? It isn't necessarily the

521
00:29:29,960 --> 00:29:32,320
Speaker 3: opposite of what was certainly the opposite of what I

522
00:29:32,520 --> 00:29:33,960
Speaker 3: conceived of grief, which is you go away in a

523
00:29:34,040 --> 00:29:36,080
Speaker 3: corner and you're just sad by yourself.

524
00:29:36,400 --> 00:29:38,840
Speaker 1: Right, that's what is in the movies of oscaram and

525
00:29:38,920 --> 00:29:40,400
Speaker 1: Hot Onto the Blankets watching Netflix.

526
00:29:41,160 --> 00:29:44,000
Speaker 3: Yeah, exactly, that's what everybody thinks. Or get really really

527
00:29:44,040 --> 00:29:49,080
Speaker 3: drunk or really really high. And the Jewish tradition is like, no, actually,

528
00:29:49,120 --> 00:29:51,640
Speaker 3: you've got to be present. You have to be engaged

529
00:29:51,680 --> 00:29:55,440
Speaker 3: in your grief. You can't compartmentalize because every day you're

530
00:29:55,480 --> 00:29:58,240
Speaker 3: going to show up and grief with people around watching

531
00:29:58,360 --> 00:30:04,800
Speaker 3: you and amending your shared grief. And it's so beautiful.

532
00:30:04,960 --> 00:30:10,120
Speaker 3: It's such a powerful experience to be supported that in

533
00:30:10,240 --> 00:30:14,240
Speaker 3: that moment over and over again. And the other example

534
00:30:14,320 --> 00:30:16,920
Speaker 3: that of the share is the notion of shiva. So

535
00:30:17,080 --> 00:30:20,680
Speaker 3: Shiva is the first seven nights after the funeral, people

536
00:30:20,800 --> 00:30:23,040
Speaker 3: gather at your house. They come to your house and

537
00:30:23,120 --> 00:30:26,040
Speaker 3: they literally sit with you. That's so called sitting shiva.

538
00:30:26,400 --> 00:30:28,720
Speaker 3: And Shiva's is Hebrew for seven, so it's the first

539
00:30:28,760 --> 00:30:33,520
Speaker 3: seven nights. And so each night hundreds of people would

540
00:30:33,640 --> 00:30:38,440
Speaker 3: come crowd our house, which sounds good, yes, yes it does, right,

541
00:30:38,720 --> 00:30:40,840
Speaker 3: it sounds It sounded terrible to me. I was like,

542
00:30:41,320 --> 00:30:43,400
Speaker 3: what are you talking about? Rubert hart Wood just killed

543
00:30:43,440 --> 00:30:46,800
Speaker 3: like seventy two hours ago, and now you want people

544
00:30:46,880 --> 00:30:49,000
Speaker 3: to pack into my home. But I was like, well,

545
00:30:49,040 --> 00:30:50,920
Speaker 3: I'm just going to listen to the Jews because they

546
00:30:51,280 --> 00:30:54,520
Speaker 3: know better, and sure enough they do. And so I

547
00:30:54,640 --> 00:30:56,520
Speaker 3: was very grateful that I that I did just listen

548
00:30:56,560 --> 00:30:58,160
Speaker 3: to them and do what they told me, the rabbi

549
00:30:58,240 --> 00:31:01,960
Speaker 3: told me to do. Because then our wise Rabbi, Sharon Browse,

550
00:31:02,120 --> 00:31:04,560
Speaker 3: she turned to us and said, these people are gathered here,

551
00:31:04,640 --> 00:31:06,120
Speaker 3: do you have anything you want to say to them?

552
00:31:06,600 --> 00:31:09,160
Speaker 3: And it turned out I did. I did. I desperately

553
00:31:09,200 --> 00:31:11,560
Speaker 3: wanted to talk about ruby and heart and all these

554
00:31:11,560 --> 00:31:13,720
Speaker 3: people wanted to hear about Ruby and Heart, and they

555
00:31:13,840 --> 00:31:16,040
Speaker 3: wanted to talk about Ruby and heart, and so it

556
00:31:16,120 --> 00:31:17,800
Speaker 3: was amazing. I could tell Ruby and Heart stories, we

557
00:31:17,800 --> 00:31:20,000
Speaker 3: could laugh and cry, and then I'd hear stories from

558
00:31:20,040 --> 00:31:23,160
Speaker 3: other people and it was like, Oh, yeah, we're mourning

559
00:31:23,200 --> 00:31:26,960
Speaker 3: in community. This is how one grieves. I don't sit

560
00:31:27,000 --> 00:31:28,800
Speaker 3: in a corner and eat ice cream and get drunk.

561
00:31:29,280 --> 00:31:31,720
Speaker 3: I'm here with people who love Ruby and heart and me,

562
00:31:31,960 --> 00:31:34,440
Speaker 3: and we can share stories and we can laugh and

563
00:31:34,560 --> 00:31:38,080
Speaker 3: cry together, so that those are all just huge eye

564
00:31:38,080 --> 00:31:38,720
Speaker 3: openers for me.

565
00:31:39,000 --> 00:31:41,240
Speaker 1: As I read the book and came across this idea

566
00:31:41,320 --> 00:31:44,520
Speaker 1: ship of which I'd never heard of before, it made

567
00:31:44,560 --> 00:31:48,800
Speaker 1: me envious. I don't know if there's a bit of

568
00:31:48,840 --> 00:31:52,560
Speaker 1: word for it. I think about the funeral traditions. I

569
00:31:52,640 --> 00:31:56,880
Speaker 1: have a faith background, but my funeral traditions feel just

570
00:31:57,240 --> 00:32:01,920
Speaker 1: so lacking relative to what you described. This idea that

571
00:32:02,600 --> 00:32:04,680
Speaker 1: you're going to have a huge community, then you're going

572
00:32:04,720 --> 00:32:08,120
Speaker 1: to do a sitting shiver for seven nights where literally

573
00:32:08,160 --> 00:32:10,800
Speaker 1: one hundred plus people are showing up and finding a

574
00:32:10,880 --> 00:32:13,920
Speaker 1: space in your house and doing this. And then there

575
00:32:13,960 --> 00:32:16,400
Speaker 1: was another tradition as well, which I don't remember the

576
00:32:16,480 --> 00:32:18,680
Speaker 1: name of it, but at the end of Shiver, you

577
00:32:19,280 --> 00:32:21,920
Speaker 1: with the community. There's something really substantial that happens there

578
00:32:21,960 --> 00:32:22,240
Speaker 1: as well.

579
00:32:23,280 --> 00:32:27,000
Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, you walk, you take a walk around the block.

580
00:32:28,040 --> 00:32:32,600
Speaker 3: And it's so powerful on so many levels, because sure enough,

581
00:32:32,680 --> 00:32:36,480
Speaker 3: that first week, Gail and I were scared to leave

582
00:32:36,520 --> 00:32:37,160
Speaker 3: the house.

583
00:32:37,040 --> 00:32:39,240
Speaker 1: And you don't do is that tradition like you're not

584
00:32:39,280 --> 00:32:40,600
Speaker 1: supposed to leave the house or something.

585
00:32:41,880 --> 00:32:45,120
Speaker 3: No, I don't believe that you're necessarily restricted to the house. Okay,

586
00:32:45,240 --> 00:32:48,080
Speaker 3: but we felt restricted. We felt like scared to go

587
00:32:48,200 --> 00:32:50,520
Speaker 3: out into the world. And sadly we had to for

588
00:32:50,600 --> 00:32:57,040
Speaker 3: some doctor appointments. But aside from the doctor appointments and

589
00:32:57,160 --> 00:33:00,200
Speaker 3: the therapy appointments, we stayed in our house and it

590
00:33:00,280 --> 00:33:02,600
Speaker 3: was scary to us. And then on the last day

591
00:33:02,600 --> 00:33:04,640
Speaker 3: of Shiva, it's like, oh, we're all gonna walk around

592
00:33:04,680 --> 00:33:07,760
Speaker 3: the block together. We're going to accompany you around the block,

593
00:33:08,640 --> 00:33:12,240
Speaker 3: and it was like we're reintroducing you to the world.

594
00:33:12,280 --> 00:33:15,720
Speaker 2: It's like a hundred people to that of people walking.

595
00:33:15,480 --> 00:33:18,240
Speaker 3: Down these the small side streets of Silver Lake, and

596
00:33:18,320 --> 00:33:20,560
Speaker 3: we blocked traffic. That was it. No car could go

597
00:33:20,800 --> 00:33:23,000
Speaker 3: in the side street while we're walking one hundred people.

598
00:33:23,720 --> 00:33:27,520
Speaker 3: And that was powerful because in a way it felt

599
00:33:27,560 --> 00:33:30,040
Speaker 3: like transgressive, Like, yeah, Ruby and Hard are dead, and

600
00:33:30,280 --> 00:33:33,600
Speaker 3: we're gonna take up space. We're gonna we're gonna demand attention,

601
00:33:33,880 --> 00:33:37,040
Speaker 3: and we're not gonna shy away from this. We're gonna

602
00:33:37,560 --> 00:33:41,760
Speaker 3: we're gonna break some rules for Ruby and Heart because

603
00:33:42,200 --> 00:33:45,920
Speaker 3: their loss is catastrophic. And I remember a car pulled

604
00:33:46,000 --> 00:33:49,000
Speaker 3: up ahead of us and saw this crowd and started honking,

605
00:33:49,560 --> 00:33:51,800
Speaker 3: and my brother ran over to the car and said

606
00:33:52,040 --> 00:33:54,520
Speaker 3: what was happening, and they just whoop and they just

607
00:33:54,680 --> 00:33:57,320
Speaker 3: backed away because it's like, right, there's one hundred people

608
00:33:57,320 --> 00:33:59,680
Speaker 3: in grief coming down the road. We don't care about

609
00:33:59,680 --> 00:34:04,120
Speaker 3: your your appointment that you're late for back up. It's

610
00:34:04,200 --> 00:34:06,520
Speaker 3: grief and it demands space.

611
00:34:06,880 --> 00:34:09,040
Speaker 1: It's pretty beautiful. When I hear you talk about it

612
00:34:09,200 --> 00:34:11,560
Speaker 1: feels like you said transgressive. It feel empowering. It's almost

613
00:34:11,640 --> 00:34:14,359
Speaker 1: like you're saying, I'm going to reclaim my agency. I'm

614
00:34:14,400 --> 00:34:18,240
Speaker 1: going to reclaim my capacity to start to take steps forward,

615
00:34:18,400 --> 00:34:22,560
Speaker 1: to expand my universe again. Despite the awfulness of the

616
00:34:22,640 --> 00:34:26,640
Speaker 1: tragedy you described a metaphor. In fact, I think it

617
00:34:26,680 --> 00:34:28,120
Speaker 1: was your rabbi who told it to you, but you

618
00:34:28,239 --> 00:34:31,480
Speaker 1: described in the book the metaphor of the shipwreck. When

619
00:34:31,520 --> 00:34:34,560
Speaker 1: I hear about this Shiver tradition, and I hear about

620
00:34:35,120 --> 00:34:38,280
Speaker 1: various other things that you did with community, which probably

621
00:34:38,320 --> 00:34:40,200
Speaker 1: go well beyond the scope of our conversation. Now they're

622
00:34:40,200 --> 00:34:43,200
Speaker 1: in the book and they're beautiful. I wonder if you

623
00:34:43,239 --> 00:34:45,920
Speaker 1: can describe for me the metaphor of the shipwreck.

624
00:34:47,160 --> 00:34:51,800
Speaker 3: Yeah. So she shared that at the funeral itself. And

625
00:34:52,160 --> 00:34:54,520
Speaker 3: I have to just give perhaps to our amazing Rabbi

626
00:34:54,560 --> 00:34:57,880
Speaker 3: Sharon Browse. She's just an extraordinary human being. And she

627
00:34:58,000 --> 00:35:01,520
Speaker 3: held her hands figuratively and early for those first days

628
00:35:01,560 --> 00:35:05,799
Speaker 3: of awfulness and took us to pick out the casket right,

629
00:35:06,000 --> 00:35:09,160
Speaker 3: to pick out the caskets plural, to pick out the

630
00:35:09,200 --> 00:35:13,440
Speaker 3: burial spot. So some rough, rough days and she was

631
00:35:13,480 --> 00:35:16,800
Speaker 3: there for us and continue to be continue to be

632
00:35:16,880 --> 00:35:19,560
Speaker 3: there for us. But at the funeral, she shared this,

633
00:35:20,000 --> 00:35:24,480
Speaker 3: this story about and against it's it's from the I

634
00:35:24,600 --> 00:35:27,080
Speaker 3: forget where it's from. But J just have lots of

635
00:35:27,160 --> 00:35:31,320
Speaker 3: stories that I loved, beautiful, beautiful metaphoric stories. But in

636
00:35:31,400 --> 00:35:39,080
Speaker 3: this story, the shipwreck and and somebody clings to a

637
00:35:39,160 --> 00:35:41,760
Speaker 3: piece of wood that floats by, and that's how they survive.

638
00:35:42,840 --> 00:35:45,439
Speaker 3: And you go under the water and back out under

639
00:35:45,480 --> 00:35:47,680
Speaker 3: and out and you're holding on, you're clinging to this

640
00:35:48,080 --> 00:35:52,120
Speaker 3: this piece of wood floating by, and she said, de Gale,

641
00:35:52,120 --> 00:35:53,640
Speaker 3: and I want you to look out to this room

642
00:35:53,680 --> 00:35:55,239
Speaker 3: and see all these people and they're all going to

643
00:35:55,280 --> 00:35:59,719
Speaker 3: be planks of wood for you to cling to because

644
00:35:59,719 --> 00:36:05,440
Speaker 3: you're been wrecked. And that was powerful, and that was

645
00:36:05,480 --> 00:36:08,520
Speaker 3: a beautiful introduction to our community to be like, you

646
00:36:08,600 --> 00:36:10,359
Speaker 3: guys are going to be the planks to hold these

647
00:36:10,400 --> 00:36:13,640
Speaker 3: people up because they need help. And I love that idea.

648
00:36:14,680 --> 00:36:17,480
Speaker 1: Callum my PhDs in positive psychology and one of the

649
00:36:17,960 --> 00:36:21,680
Speaker 1: founding fathers of the modern positive psychology movement was Christopher Peterson.

650
00:36:22,160 --> 00:36:25,360
Speaker 1: He died a few years ago, but the phrase that

651
00:36:25,440 --> 00:36:29,320
Speaker 1: he was best known for, after analyzing a century of

652
00:36:29,719 --> 00:36:32,640
Speaker 1: research into psychology and what leads to a life well lived,

653
00:36:33,920 --> 00:36:36,040
Speaker 1: just harmonized this so beautifully with the shipwreck metaphor. And

654
00:36:36,239 --> 00:36:39,640
Speaker 1: it's just three words other people matter. When I here

655
00:36:39,760 --> 00:36:44,000
Speaker 1: described this grief process and how you work through it,

656
00:36:44,920 --> 00:36:47,120
Speaker 1: there's just this one word that keeps coming up, and

657
00:36:47,160 --> 00:36:50,120
Speaker 1: that is community, community, community. It's other people who matter.

658
00:36:51,920 --> 00:36:55,960
Speaker 3: Yeah. I discovered that how important it was to me

659
00:36:56,360 --> 00:36:58,959
Speaker 3: in grief to have the community. And then I also

660
00:36:59,040 --> 00:37:01,000
Speaker 3: just building on that idea that you just said about

661
00:37:01,000 --> 00:37:04,759
Speaker 3: a life well lived is you know, Victor Frankel was

662
00:37:05,080 --> 00:37:07,879
Speaker 3: meaningful to me. I read his book Man Starts for Meaning,

663
00:37:08,040 --> 00:37:12,160
Speaker 3: and he talks about the idea that we find meaning

664
00:37:12,640 --> 00:37:16,920
Speaker 3: in other people outside of ourselves. So how are we

665
00:37:17,000 --> 00:37:20,879
Speaker 3: of service to other people that you can't just think

666
00:37:20,920 --> 00:37:24,000
Speaker 3: about your own needs and desires and find meaning that way.

667
00:37:25,239 --> 00:37:28,400
Speaker 3: It's how you are in relation to other people. And

668
00:37:28,520 --> 00:37:31,440
Speaker 3: that's also was very crystallizing to me.

669
00:37:31,920 --> 00:37:34,360
Speaker 1: There's something as well as I think about this process,

670
00:37:35,440 --> 00:37:37,719
Speaker 1: we've very much focused on you and your grief, but

671
00:37:37,920 --> 00:37:41,520
Speaker 1: as an outsider, a friend of the family, a loved one,

672
00:37:41,960 --> 00:37:46,160
Speaker 1: somebody who is going through my own personal grief about

673
00:37:46,400 --> 00:37:49,600
Speaker 1: the tragedy, but also wanting so desperately, I mean, anyone

674
00:37:49,640 --> 00:37:53,200
Speaker 1: who's not you wants so desperately to offer support however

675
00:37:53,239 --> 00:37:55,799
Speaker 1: they can. There's a clumsiness, there's an awkwardness, there's an

676
00:37:56,239 --> 00:38:00,560
Speaker 1: unsuredness about it. But by being open and by actually

677
00:38:00,560 --> 00:38:02,040
Speaker 1: reaching out and saying you look like a plank of

678
00:38:02,080 --> 00:38:04,239
Speaker 1: wood that I could lean on for a moment, in

679
00:38:04,520 --> 00:38:07,160
Speaker 1: so many ways, you provide purpose and meaning. It sort

680
00:38:07,160 --> 00:38:08,480
Speaker 1: of ties in with that Frank idea.

681
00:38:09,560 --> 00:38:12,280
Speaker 2: When we shut ourselves off, not only do we harm ourselves,

682
00:38:12,320 --> 00:38:13,000
Speaker 2: but we also.

683
00:38:13,080 --> 00:38:16,640
Speaker 1: Reduce the capacity that others have to find meaning and

684
00:38:16,719 --> 00:38:19,360
Speaker 1: purpose and goodness in their lives through the same grief

685
00:38:19,719 --> 00:38:20,719
Speaker 1: that we're all experiencing.

686
00:38:21,760 --> 00:38:26,440
Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, I love that. Just to me. I think

687
00:38:26,480 --> 00:38:31,160
Speaker 3: you're right. I think that people were in ours desperate

688
00:38:31,280 --> 00:38:35,760
Speaker 3: to help Gale and I and it can be awkward

689
00:38:35,840 --> 00:38:38,399
Speaker 3: and difficult because I think I've spoken to many people

690
00:38:38,480 --> 00:38:41,279
Speaker 3: in grief, and oftentimes people say like, I'll do anything

691
00:38:41,320 --> 00:38:43,600
Speaker 3: for you, whatever you want. But in the early days,

692
00:38:43,640 --> 00:38:46,840
Speaker 3: we don't know what we want, and we feel lost,

693
00:38:46,920 --> 00:38:49,160
Speaker 3: and it's almost a burden to for us to think

694
00:38:49,200 --> 00:38:50,880
Speaker 3: of things you could do for me. You know, I

695
00:38:50,920 --> 00:38:52,360
Speaker 3: don't know what you can do for me. I know

696
00:38:52,520 --> 00:38:55,160
Speaker 3: you think about that, you know what I mean. I

697
00:38:55,200 --> 00:38:57,239
Speaker 3: don't want to live right now, so I can't think

698
00:38:57,280 --> 00:38:59,919
Speaker 3: about what you could do for me. But when people

699
00:39:00,480 --> 00:39:04,160
Speaker 3: gave specific offers, like hey, we'd like to go for

700
00:39:04,239 --> 00:39:08,320
Speaker 3: a walk tomorrow in the park, I'm available. That was

701
00:39:08,640 --> 00:39:09,600
Speaker 3: that was very helpful.

702
00:39:09,719 --> 00:39:12,560
Speaker 1: How hard was it to say yes like that? You

703
00:39:12,680 --> 00:39:14,239
Speaker 1: must have wanted to say no, I want to sit

704
00:39:14,320 --> 00:39:16,520
Speaker 1: here and cry yes, Yes.

705
00:39:16,600 --> 00:39:18,680
Speaker 3: So I talked about that in the book. I actually

706
00:39:19,160 --> 00:39:23,080
Speaker 3: I was finding myself saying no a lot because it

707
00:39:23,200 --> 00:39:24,960
Speaker 3: was very hard for me to make a decision. It

708
00:39:25,080 --> 00:39:27,239
Speaker 3: was very hard for me to even think about the

709
00:39:27,360 --> 00:39:29,920
Speaker 3: next hour alone tomorrow. Like someone said, oh, I'll go

710
00:39:29,960 --> 00:39:31,839
Speaker 3: for a walk with you tomorrow, I'm like, I don't

711
00:39:31,840 --> 00:39:33,600
Speaker 3: know how I'm going to feel tomorrow. I can't make

712
00:39:33,640 --> 00:39:35,560
Speaker 3: a commitment to that. I don't know if I'll be

713
00:39:35,880 --> 00:39:37,640
Speaker 3: out of bed, I don't know what's going to happen.

714
00:39:39,440 --> 00:39:41,480
Speaker 3: But I found that because I really want to be

715
00:39:41,560 --> 00:39:44,320
Speaker 3: with people in community, and I really I imagined that

716
00:39:44,320 --> 00:39:46,160
Speaker 3: I would want to have a conversation with this person.

717
00:39:46,600 --> 00:39:48,440
Speaker 3: So I started saying yes to everything. That was my

718
00:39:48,520 --> 00:39:51,919
Speaker 3: new policy. I wanted to say no, I just said yes.

719
00:39:52,760 --> 00:39:55,279
Speaker 3: And it was a way of staying engaged in life,

720
00:39:57,040 --> 00:39:58,960
Speaker 3: even when I didn't want to be engaged in life.

721
00:40:00,120 --> 00:40:03,920
Speaker 3: I trusted that I sort of fake it till I

722
00:40:03,960 --> 00:40:05,440
Speaker 3: make it kind of vibe, you know what I mean,

723
00:40:05,640 --> 00:40:09,640
Speaker 3: Like do I really want to go for a walk. No,

724
00:40:10,480 --> 00:40:14,280
Speaker 3: But I know that walking can be helpful and healthy,

725
00:40:15,120 --> 00:40:16,680
Speaker 3: and I'm going to say yes, and I'm going to

726
00:40:16,760 --> 00:40:21,480
Speaker 3: do it. And sure enough, as I'm walking, I'm discovering.

727
00:40:21,600 --> 00:40:23,239
Speaker 3: Oh I'm glad I took the walk, you know what

728
00:40:23,320 --> 00:40:25,400
Speaker 3: I mean. And I kind of trusted in that. I

729
00:40:25,480 --> 00:40:28,279
Speaker 3: sort of trusted that meaning and purpose would come back

730
00:40:28,320 --> 00:40:31,719
Speaker 3: to me because life feels meaningless when you lose something,

731
00:40:31,800 --> 00:40:33,840
Speaker 3: you have a profound loss, and your identity has shook.

732
00:40:34,800 --> 00:40:39,200
Speaker 3: Life feels meaningless because what matters? Why does it matter

733
00:40:39,280 --> 00:40:41,200
Speaker 3: what I do in my life? Ruby and Hart aren't

734
00:40:41,200 --> 00:40:46,160
Speaker 3: here to share that with me. But ultimately, I think

735
00:40:46,239 --> 00:40:49,160
Speaker 3: by just trusting that it would come back to me

736
00:40:49,239 --> 00:40:53,200
Speaker 3: and engaging in life, it has. You know, I think

737
00:40:53,239 --> 00:40:57,560
Speaker 3: I have found meaning and purpose in life, even in

738
00:40:57,680 --> 00:40:58,280
Speaker 3: their absence.

739
00:41:00,719 --> 00:41:04,359
Speaker 1: Is partly New Zealand Maory or Malti, as she would say,

740
00:41:05,440 --> 00:41:07,160
Speaker 1: they have a tradition where a person dies and that

741
00:41:07,239 --> 00:41:10,000
Speaker 1: person's body stays in the family home or on what

742
00:41:10,120 --> 00:41:13,640
Speaker 1: they call the mudai, and there are three days where

743
00:41:14,320 --> 00:41:18,800
Speaker 1: the entire family stays with the body of the deceased.

744
00:41:20,200 --> 00:41:23,359
Speaker 1: When this was first explained to me, Colin I, I mean,

745
00:41:23,400 --> 00:41:25,759
Speaker 1: I was probably in my early twenties, and frankly I

746
00:41:25,840 --> 00:41:28,759
Speaker 1: was horrified. I really liked the standard Western way of

747
00:41:28,840 --> 00:41:32,279
Speaker 1: keeping your distance. Death apparently is quite unquote disgusting, and

748
00:41:33,040 --> 00:41:36,000
Speaker 1: yet over time I've fallen in love with the idea

749
00:41:36,480 --> 00:41:39,840
Speaker 1: so much so that I'm looking forward to the opportunity

750
00:41:39,960 --> 00:41:44,439
Speaker 1: to celebrate the lives of Kylie's family in that way,

751
00:41:44,600 --> 00:41:46,200
Speaker 1: and I'm hoping that we can even adopt some of

752
00:41:46,280 --> 00:41:50,600
Speaker 1: that in our own family. Reading about the Jewish way

753
00:41:50,840 --> 00:41:53,879
Speaker 1: of going through the traditions that you described, it also

754
00:41:53,960 --> 00:41:56,760
Speaker 1: shifted me even further into wanting those deep and profound

755
00:41:57,080 --> 00:42:01,200
Speaker 1: traditions around death and grieving, especially with commune. Do you

756
00:42:01,280 --> 00:42:04,160
Speaker 1: have any sense of where the idea comes from that

757
00:42:04,239 --> 00:42:05,880
Speaker 1: we're supposed to push grief away.

758
00:42:06,520 --> 00:42:10,520
Speaker 3: Yeah, I think there's several reasons why this has sort

759
00:42:10,560 --> 00:42:15,360
Speaker 3: of become our cultural default to avoid grief, avoid the

760
00:42:15,400 --> 00:42:18,520
Speaker 3: discomfort of grief. I'm still thinking about your wife's traditions,

761
00:42:18,760 --> 00:42:22,080
Speaker 3: which just seems how beautiful, and I feel like I

762
00:42:22,080 --> 00:42:24,160
Speaker 3: just want to respond quickly to your wife traditions the

763
00:42:24,239 --> 00:42:27,560
Speaker 3: idea that I think there's a lot of cultural heritage

764
00:42:27,600 --> 00:42:31,440
Speaker 3: that we all have that involves engaging in grief, and

765
00:42:31,840 --> 00:42:36,279
Speaker 3: it's somehow some easy to short circuit that stuff. So

766
00:42:36,400 --> 00:42:38,879
Speaker 3: I know lots of people should us post last seven Nights,

767
00:42:38,920 --> 00:42:41,600
Speaker 3: but many people don't do that many Jews don't do that.

768
00:42:42,560 --> 00:42:45,160
Speaker 3: There are a lot of traditions in the Jewish culture

769
00:42:45,239 --> 00:42:49,080
Speaker 3: about grief that in the morning that people do. Yeah, yeah,

770
00:42:49,080 --> 00:42:50,279
Speaker 3: that's what we're supposed to do, but we're going to

771
00:42:50,320 --> 00:42:52,040
Speaker 3: do a shorter version, you know what I mean, We're

772
00:42:52,080 --> 00:42:54,600
Speaker 3: not really going to do that, you know. And that's

773
00:42:54,680 --> 00:42:58,719
Speaker 3: true for Islam as well, and in Christianity. There are

774
00:42:58,760 --> 00:43:01,200
Speaker 3: there are lots of traditions we have of around grief

775
00:43:01,239 --> 00:43:06,080
Speaker 3: that that I think as a culture, we we short

776
00:43:06,200 --> 00:43:08,640
Speaker 3: change and think like, yeah, that's what we're supposed to do,

777
00:43:08,719 --> 00:43:12,360
Speaker 3: but doesn't feel right. And in a way, giving ourselves

778
00:43:12,440 --> 00:43:15,480
Speaker 3: over to these cultural traditions can be really beautiful because

779
00:43:16,160 --> 00:43:18,799
Speaker 3: it is uncomfortable to your point, you know what, why

780
00:43:19,120 --> 00:43:23,360
Speaker 3: why do we why is grief so avoided now? Is

781
00:43:23,520 --> 00:43:30,360
Speaker 3: because I think it's so uncomfortable and it seems like

782
00:43:30,440 --> 00:43:32,520
Speaker 3: it's easier to avoid it, But in fact it's not.

783
00:43:32,600 --> 00:43:35,719
Speaker 3: Because we don't get to avoid grief. It happens to

784
00:43:35,760 --> 00:43:37,520
Speaker 3: all of us no matter what, We're all going to

785
00:43:37,600 --> 00:43:44,040
Speaker 3: grieve and and it's okay to feel pain. I think

786
00:43:44,080 --> 00:43:47,719
Speaker 3: that people don't like the idea of people being in pain.

787
00:43:47,880 --> 00:43:50,239
Speaker 3: They want to speed it up. Right, Like, that's why

788
00:43:50,239 --> 00:43:52,839
Speaker 3: people are encouraged to get over it, because because they're

789
00:43:52,880 --> 00:43:56,759
Speaker 3: making people uncomfortable. I'm seeing you, you're in pain. I'm uncomfortable,

790
00:43:56,880 --> 00:44:01,440
Speaker 3: so I say, cheer up, stop grieving. But in fact,

791
00:44:02,280 --> 00:44:04,640
Speaker 3: there's nothing wrong with the pain of loss. It's a

792
00:44:04,680 --> 00:44:07,359
Speaker 3: beautiful pain. It comes from love. The reason it hurts

793
00:44:07,400 --> 00:44:10,080
Speaker 3: so bad is because I love them so much. And

794
00:44:10,200 --> 00:44:12,520
Speaker 3: isn't that a beautiful thing? Don't we want to love people.

795
00:44:12,760 --> 00:44:16,600
Speaker 3: Don't we want to open our hearts up to both

796
00:44:16,680 --> 00:44:21,360
Speaker 3: sides of love, the joyful feelings and then also the

797
00:44:21,440 --> 00:44:25,400
Speaker 3: aching wife close your eyes off to that. But I

798
00:44:25,480 --> 00:44:29,200
Speaker 3: think people are afraid of it and think that it's

799
00:44:29,560 --> 00:44:33,279
Speaker 3: somehow more convenient and not feel that.

800
00:44:34,400 --> 00:44:37,160
Speaker 1: You speak so vulnerably and so beautifully. I just so

801
00:44:37,280 --> 00:44:40,040
Speaker 1: appreciate what you've shared. I have just a couple of

802
00:44:40,080 --> 00:44:43,600
Speaker 1: other questions, and then we'll bring this to a close.

803
00:44:44,040 --> 00:44:46,440
Speaker 1: In the book, page one seventy six, you share a

804
00:44:46,520 --> 00:44:49,400
Speaker 1: quote from Helen Keller. It's always been a personal favorite

805
00:44:49,400 --> 00:44:50,960
Speaker 1: of mind. But I didn't have the full context for

806
00:44:51,080 --> 00:44:52,719
Speaker 1: the quote, and the way you use it in the

807
00:44:52,760 --> 00:44:57,160
Speaker 1: book is just so I think so helpful. I want

808
00:44:57,200 --> 00:44:59,080
Speaker 1: to say so delightful. But that word feels a little

809
00:44:59,080 --> 00:45:03,080
Speaker 1: bit inappropriate in the convers and yet my mind exploded

810
00:45:03,160 --> 00:45:05,879
Speaker 1: in wonderful ways when I read it. Would you mind

811
00:45:05,960 --> 00:45:08,839
Speaker 1: reading that and perhaps sharing why this matters so much?

812
00:45:09,880 --> 00:45:15,200
Speaker 3: Yeah? Absolutely so. Helen Keller wrote, security is mostly a superstition.

813
00:45:15,840 --> 00:45:18,600
Speaker 3: It does not exist in nature, nor do the children

814
00:45:18,640 --> 00:45:22,279
Speaker 3: of men as a whole experience it. Avoiding danger is

815
00:45:22,360 --> 00:45:26,040
Speaker 3: no safer in the long run than outright exposure. Life

816
00:45:26,120 --> 00:45:29,840
Speaker 3: is either a daring adventure or nothing. And I was

817
00:45:29,880 --> 00:45:33,120
Speaker 3: first introduced to this quote from Ruby. She was at

818
00:45:33,320 --> 00:45:35,840
Speaker 3: an OCD group, an adult OCD group. She was so

819
00:45:35,960 --> 00:45:40,120
Speaker 3: precocious at engaging that even as a sixteen year old

820
00:45:40,160 --> 00:45:42,040
Speaker 3: and seventeen year old, she was a member of this

821
00:45:42,160 --> 00:45:44,799
Speaker 3: adult OCD group, and she was a leader in this group.

822
00:45:44,840 --> 00:45:48,040
Speaker 3: By the way, she's an extraordinary person. And she brought

823
00:45:48,120 --> 00:45:53,800
Speaker 3: this quote home because it really it talks about exposing

824
00:45:53,880 --> 00:45:59,360
Speaker 3: oneself to danger, and a lot of elements of OCD

825
00:46:00,160 --> 00:46:03,840
Speaker 3: are about trying to control danger. So a lot of

826
00:46:04,040 --> 00:46:05,680
Speaker 3: a lot, not all, but a lot of people with OCD,

827
00:46:05,800 --> 00:46:10,800
Speaker 3: they're obsessive compulsive behaviors are about trying to keep safe

828
00:46:10,840 --> 00:46:14,920
Speaker 3: people safe. If I do this I will will forestall

829
00:46:15,000 --> 00:46:18,400
Speaker 3: something bad from happening. And in a way, part of

830
00:46:18,440 --> 00:46:21,799
Speaker 3: the therapy h very often for OCD is is saying, well,

831
00:46:22,040 --> 00:46:24,600
Speaker 3: what if something bad did happen, Like, let's expose yourself

832
00:46:24,640 --> 00:46:28,040
Speaker 3: to that and just and try and try and sit

833
00:46:28,120 --> 00:46:31,520
Speaker 3: with that discomfort. You know, we're not in control, we're

834
00:46:31,560 --> 00:46:35,879
Speaker 3: not actually safe, uh, and can we can we open

835
00:46:35,920 --> 00:46:38,040
Speaker 3: ourselves up to that? So this is a quote that

836
00:46:38,120 --> 00:46:39,680
Speaker 3: was important to Ruby, and she stuck it on her

837
00:46:39,960 --> 00:46:44,320
Speaker 3: on her corkboard in her room and then and I

838
00:46:44,400 --> 00:46:48,000
Speaker 3: knew about it, and then I discover it in grief

839
00:46:48,200 --> 00:46:51,640
Speaker 3: and I'm like, oh right, yeah, none of us are safe,

840
00:46:51,719 --> 00:46:54,960
Speaker 3: none of us are in control. Horrible things happen all

841
00:46:55,000 --> 00:46:58,040
Speaker 3: the time to people who are innocent, who couldn't have

842
00:46:58,080 --> 00:47:03,400
Speaker 3: been protected. War crashes, I mean, all sorts of terrible

843
00:47:03,440 --> 00:47:09,279
Speaker 3: diseases strike people, and it's all unfair and we can't

844
00:47:09,320 --> 00:47:12,480
Speaker 3: protect ourselves from it. And yet, do we want to

845
00:47:12,520 --> 00:47:15,880
Speaker 3: live a life that's like hungered down and trying to

846
00:47:15,960 --> 00:47:18,040
Speaker 3: protect ourselves from these things that we can't protect ourselves

847
00:47:18,040 --> 00:47:19,440
Speaker 3: fromb or do we want to open ourselves up to

848
00:47:19,520 --> 00:47:22,720
Speaker 3: it and try and engage in life and the adventure

849
00:47:22,800 --> 00:47:26,880
Speaker 3: of life, and so it became an inspirational quote from

850
00:47:26,960 --> 00:47:30,520
Speaker 3: me to help me stay engaged in life even though

851
00:47:30,560 --> 00:47:31,000
Speaker 3: it's scary.

852
00:47:32,000 --> 00:47:34,320
Speaker 1: I asked you to elaborate on that because my final

853
00:47:34,440 --> 00:47:37,160
Speaker 1: question for you really ties in with what you're describing.

854
00:47:37,640 --> 00:47:40,680
Speaker 1: Life is a daring adventure or is nothing? And yet

855
00:47:41,200 --> 00:47:43,880
Speaker 1: my two children in a loge with me and for

856
00:47:44,000 --> 00:47:47,080
Speaker 1: me to live that daring adventure. In some ways, there's

857
00:47:47,600 --> 00:47:49,919
Speaker 1: I don't know if this is probably the wrong word

858
00:47:49,960 --> 00:47:52,200
Speaker 1: to use, but there's this sense of I've got to

859
00:47:52,320 --> 00:47:54,840
Speaker 1: get over this, or certainly there are people who expect

860
00:47:54,880 --> 00:47:58,719
Speaker 1: that we have to get over this. My understanding though,

861
00:47:58,800 --> 00:48:01,040
Speaker 1: is that you never get over losing you two children,

862
00:48:01,120 --> 00:48:03,680
Speaker 1: having them taken from you, especially like this.

863
00:48:04,960 --> 00:48:06,560
Speaker 2: In conclusion, how are you now?

864
00:48:08,440 --> 00:48:13,160
Speaker 3: Yeah? Thanks for asking, because I'm as scary to ask me, right,

865
00:48:13,680 --> 00:48:15,600
Speaker 3: how am I doing? I think it's scary to people,

866
00:48:16,800 --> 00:48:21,520
Speaker 3: but I always appreciate people checking in and it is.

867
00:48:22,120 --> 00:48:25,680
Speaker 3: It is all an ongoing struggle. I I don't like

868
00:48:25,800 --> 00:48:28,560
Speaker 3: to use the word healing because to my mind, I'll

869
00:48:28,680 --> 00:48:32,040
Speaker 3: never heal, you know, Ruby and Hart Uh, there I have.

870
00:48:32,120 --> 00:48:35,320
Speaker 3: I have holes in my heart, two whole, two large

871
00:48:35,360 --> 00:48:39,640
Speaker 3: holes in my heart. There aren't going anywhere, but I'm

872
00:48:39,680 --> 00:48:43,839
Speaker 3: living around them, so I'm still my heart's not it's

873
00:48:44,120 --> 00:48:47,840
Speaker 3: it's damaged, but it still works. I still love people.

874
00:48:48,520 --> 00:48:50,080
Speaker 3: I want to I want to be open to life.

875
00:48:51,000 --> 00:48:55,040
Speaker 3: And so early on after the crash, uh, you know,

876
00:48:55,120 --> 00:48:57,759
Speaker 3: for example, I said to Gail, you know, we could

877
00:48:57,880 --> 00:49:01,560
Speaker 3: be parents again. We could foster adopt. And one of

878
00:49:01,600 --> 00:49:04,400
Speaker 3: the reasons why I had that idea was because Ruby

879
00:49:04,960 --> 00:49:07,640
Speaker 3: put it in my mind a year or two before

880
00:49:07,680 --> 00:49:10,160
Speaker 3: she was killed. She said to us, we should foster adopt.

881
00:49:10,800 --> 00:49:12,399
Speaker 3: And we're like, what, how do you even know about

882
00:49:12,480 --> 00:49:13,799
Speaker 3: like a fifteen year old kid? How do you even

883
00:49:13,840 --> 00:49:16,279
Speaker 3: know about foster adopting? Because she was just that kind

884
00:49:16,280 --> 00:49:19,959
Speaker 3: of kid. She did research on it, and she said,

885
00:49:20,280 --> 00:49:23,799
Speaker 3: there's so many fams, so many children in in Los

886
00:49:23,800 --> 00:49:27,720
Speaker 3: Angeles County that need families, and we're a loving family,

887
00:49:28,640 --> 00:49:31,760
Speaker 3: and we should we should bring some into our family.

888
00:49:32,280 --> 00:49:34,480
Speaker 3: And we thought, that's such a beautiful idea. And I

889
00:49:34,520 --> 00:49:36,560
Speaker 3: thought the time, my hands are full, I got two kids,

890
00:49:36,880 --> 00:49:41,080
Speaker 3: that's beautiful Ruby, but no, and then suddenly I was like, oh, wow, right,

891
00:49:41,560 --> 00:49:48,879
Speaker 3: I've got two empty bedrooms, and maybe we could bring

892
00:49:49,040 --> 00:49:52,680
Speaker 3: children into our lives and continue to parent and it was.

893
00:49:53,040 --> 00:49:55,360
Speaker 3: It was difficult. So I said this to Gail, and

894
00:49:55,440 --> 00:49:57,279
Speaker 3: she burst into tears and said, thank god you said that.

895
00:49:57,920 --> 00:50:00,640
Speaker 3: I was thinking that too, but I scared that you

896
00:50:00,680 --> 00:50:03,320
Speaker 3: would be too scared to try again with other kids,

897
00:50:04,600 --> 00:50:08,200
Speaker 3: and so we embarked on this journey. So it's it's

898
00:50:08,280 --> 00:50:12,120
Speaker 3: a difficult journey, and you have to be to take classes,

899
00:50:12,160 --> 00:50:14,920
Speaker 3: you have to be trained to do this, and mostly

900
00:50:15,120 --> 00:50:19,160
Speaker 3: the training is about learning about trauma. These kids have

901
00:50:19,480 --> 00:50:22,320
Speaker 3: endured terrible trauma. That's why they're in the foster system.

902
00:50:22,400 --> 00:50:25,359
Speaker 3: No kid in the foster system doesn't have trauma. That's

903
00:50:25,400 --> 00:50:28,680
Speaker 3: how they got there, through no fault of their own right.

904
00:50:29,320 --> 00:50:31,879
Speaker 3: It was we tried to foster. I talked about the book.

905
00:50:31,920 --> 00:50:35,640
Speaker 3: We started fostering to adopt a teenage girl, thirteen year

906
00:50:35,640 --> 00:50:37,799
Speaker 3: old girl, and she lived with us for a year

907
00:50:37,800 --> 00:50:39,759
Speaker 3: and a half and I thought we were making a

908
00:50:39,840 --> 00:50:44,400
Speaker 3: new family, but in fact, she found it hard to

909
00:50:44,719 --> 00:50:47,920
Speaker 3: open her hearts up, open her heart up to the

910
00:50:48,000 --> 00:50:50,080
Speaker 3: idea of being part of a family. For her family

911
00:50:50,160 --> 00:50:54,320
Speaker 3: met trauma. For her, opening her heart meant vulnerability, and

912
00:50:54,440 --> 00:50:58,160
Speaker 3: that was catastrophic for her in the past. And even

913
00:50:58,200 --> 00:51:00,640
Speaker 3: though she wanted to have a new family, she couldn't

914
00:51:00,640 --> 00:51:03,640
Speaker 3: do it. It was too scary for her, and ultimately

915
00:51:03,719 --> 00:51:06,480
Speaker 3: she said, I want out. I don't want to be adopted.

916
00:51:06,920 --> 00:51:09,200
Speaker 3: I want to age out of the system, which is

917
00:51:09,480 --> 00:51:14,080
Speaker 3: very bleak statistically, in heartbreaking that she wasn't able to

918
00:51:15,280 --> 00:51:17,399
Speaker 3: just hang in there with us a little longer until

919
00:51:17,480 --> 00:51:23,359
Speaker 3: she could acclimate and see that was safe. But we're

920
00:51:23,400 --> 00:51:27,239
Speaker 3: trying again, and I think it's going very well. So

921
00:51:27,840 --> 00:51:30,000
Speaker 3: we have a thirteen year old son and a twelve

922
00:51:30,040 --> 00:51:36,279
Speaker 3: year old daughter, their siblings, and it feels good in

923
00:51:36,400 --> 00:51:39,640
Speaker 3: so many ways to be parenting, to have a family.

924
00:51:41,400 --> 00:51:44,359
Speaker 3: It's a real stretching of the heart. But it's also

925
00:51:44,560 --> 00:51:48,160
Speaker 3: challenging because here I am still in grief and they

926
00:51:49,120 --> 00:51:52,000
Speaker 3: have lots of trauma and grief of their own that

927
00:51:52,120 --> 00:51:54,920
Speaker 3: they're trying to process. But they're just a kid. So

928
00:51:55,080 --> 00:52:01,320
Speaker 3: I have my adult experiences and perspectives, but they're just

929
00:52:01,560 --> 00:52:06,040
Speaker 3: kids struggling with these terrible feelings of loss and trauma.

930
00:52:07,640 --> 00:52:14,920
Speaker 3: So it's like parenting on steroids. But it's very meaningful

931
00:52:15,000 --> 00:52:16,280
Speaker 3: to me and girl.

932
00:52:16,920 --> 00:52:20,040
Speaker 1: Colin, so grateful for what you've shared, So grateful for

933
00:52:20,120 --> 00:52:24,360
Speaker 1: the I want to say inspiration, but again I'm not

934
00:52:24,400 --> 00:52:26,920
Speaker 1: sure that's the right word. All I can really think

935
00:52:27,160 --> 00:52:29,560
Speaker 1: to do, though, is to express my appreciation, my gratitude.

936
00:52:30,360 --> 00:52:33,320
Speaker 1: Speaking about these things is I'm sure a combination of

937
00:52:33,360 --> 00:52:37,520
Speaker 1: both incredibly difficult and incredibly joyful. And the way you've

938
00:52:37,520 --> 00:52:40,840
Speaker 1: done that is a wonderful honor to you and your family,

939
00:52:40,840 --> 00:52:43,560
Speaker 1: and especially to Ruby and Heart. Thank you so much

940
00:52:43,640 --> 00:52:47,160
Speaker 1: for sharing what you have with us on the podcast today.

941
00:52:48,280 --> 00:52:50,000
Speaker 3: Thank you, thank you for having me. I really appreciate it.

942
00:52:59,360 --> 00:53:01,520
Speaker 1: I saw a pre share Colin Campbell joining me for

943
00:53:01,600 --> 00:53:06,040
Speaker 1: that conversation. As I mentioned at the outset, my nephew

944
00:53:06,120 --> 00:53:09,120
Speaker 1: died on Sunday night last week by suicide.

945
00:53:10,560 --> 00:53:13,560
Speaker 2: He was the most energetic and delightful kid.

946
00:53:13,719 --> 00:53:14,080
Speaker 3: That I know.

947
00:53:14,239 --> 00:53:17,560
Speaker 2: He was kind and fun, laughed all the time.

948
00:53:18,160 --> 00:53:21,560
Speaker 1: My kids, his cousins loved hanging out with him, and

949
00:53:21,880 --> 00:53:24,640
Speaker 1: as his uncle, I loved hanging out with him too.

950
00:53:25,880 --> 00:53:26,880
Speaker 2: I remember last year we.

951
00:53:26,920 --> 00:53:29,200
Speaker 1: Served at Kira when the surf was as good as

952
00:53:29,239 --> 00:53:34,680
Speaker 1: it gets well overhead, absolutely pumping because surfing was his thing.

953
00:53:35,640 --> 00:53:38,600
Speaker 3: He was so good at it. He was close to pro.

954
00:53:40,320 --> 00:53:41,880
Speaker 1: He was staying at my parents' house the night that

955
00:53:41,960 --> 00:53:44,560
Speaker 1: he took his life. My mum and dad, his nana

956
00:53:44,640 --> 00:53:49,560
Speaker 1: Pop found him on the Monday morning. They found him

957
00:53:49,560 --> 00:53:52,680
Speaker 1: too late to help. They found him too late to

958
00:53:52,760 --> 00:53:58,279
Speaker 1: do anything except scream no. They found him too late

959
00:53:58,640 --> 00:54:01,600
Speaker 1: for him to hear them as they write his name

960
00:54:02,440 --> 00:54:03,920
Speaker 1: over and over and over again.

961
00:54:04,840 --> 00:54:10,880
Speaker 2: Logan, logan, logan. How do you hold the body of

962
00:54:11,000 --> 00:54:15,960
Speaker 2: your grandson for the last time? That was what my

963
00:54:16,040 --> 00:54:17,360
Speaker 2: parents did that Monday morning.

964
00:54:19,719 --> 00:54:23,040
Speaker 1: How do you call your daughter, still celebrating a special

965
00:54:23,080 --> 00:54:25,239
Speaker 1: weekend with her husband in Melbourne and tell her that

966
00:54:25,360 --> 00:54:28,759
Speaker 1: she needs to come home because her son, just twenty

967
00:54:28,880 --> 00:54:33,200
Speaker 1: years old, has died. That was also what my parents

968
00:54:33,239 --> 00:54:37,680
Speaker 1: did on Monday morning last week. And then we received

969
00:54:37,719 --> 00:54:39,560
Speaker 1: the call, and then we sat with each of our children,

970
00:54:40,080 --> 00:54:42,920
Speaker 1: and the ripple effect of those conversations.

971
00:54:42,760 --> 00:54:46,040
Speaker 3: Carried and carried and carried.

972
00:54:47,520 --> 00:54:50,319
Speaker 1: In a Facebook post last week, I said this, here's

973
00:54:50,360 --> 00:54:53,080
Speaker 1: what I want you to know. There are nine suicides

974
00:54:53,120 --> 00:54:56,200
Speaker 1: every single day in Australia. Seven of those nine suicides

975
00:54:56,200 --> 00:54:58,200
Speaker 1: each day are men, two of those nine are women,

976
00:54:58,560 --> 00:55:01,800
Speaker 1: and suicide is the leading cause death among young people

977
00:55:01,960 --> 00:55:06,160
Speaker 1: fifteen to twenty four years, thirty six percent of deaths

978
00:55:06,239 --> 00:55:10,320
Speaker 1: in this age group of suicides. Now, it's a complex

979
00:55:10,400 --> 00:55:13,839
Speaker 1: issue and rarely is there just one factor that leads

980
00:55:13,880 --> 00:55:15,120
Speaker 1: to someone taking their own life.

981
00:55:15,160 --> 00:55:16,040
Speaker 3: But here's what we do know.

982
00:55:16,680 --> 00:55:19,360
Speaker 2: Strong social connections reduce the chance of suicide.

983
00:55:19,719 --> 00:55:23,080
Speaker 3: So please, please, please please please.

984
00:55:22,800 --> 00:55:27,400
Speaker 1: Be kind, be compassionate, be gentle, be inclusive, be supportive,

985
00:55:28,400 --> 00:55:35,960
Speaker 1: be less critical and judgmental, and be more of a cheerleader.

986
00:55:36,800 --> 00:55:37,960
Speaker 3: Don't be on your kids back.

987
00:55:39,480 --> 00:55:42,759
Speaker 1: Instead, make sure you've got their back, love them and

988
00:55:42,920 --> 00:55:44,920
Speaker 1: make sure that they know it. They have to know

989
00:55:45,680 --> 00:55:51,719
Speaker 1: they matter. This is a hard conversation to have. I

990
00:55:51,880 --> 00:55:55,759
Speaker 1: hope that my discussion with Colin Campbell and the way

991
00:55:55,800 --> 00:56:01,479
Speaker 1: that I've shared with you today has been helpful. Please

992
00:56:01,560 --> 00:56:04,280
Speaker 1: hug your kids, hug your husband, your wife, your spouse,

993
00:56:04,280 --> 00:56:08,440
Speaker 1: your partner, and share this message and this love with

994
00:56:08,640 --> 00:56:12,319
Speaker 1: everyone you know that needs to know how much they matter.

995
00:56:14,040 --> 00:56:21,560
Speaker 1: If you need help, call Lifeline thirteen eleven fourteen. The

996
00:56:21,680 --> 00:56:25,600
Speaker 1: Suicide Callback Service is one three hundred six five nine

997
00:56:26,480 --> 00:56:32,440
Speaker 1: four six seven, Men's Line Australia is one three hundred

998
00:56:33,080 --> 00:56:37,680
Speaker 1: seven eight nine nine eight seven and Kids Help Line

999
00:56:38,600 --> 00:56:43,200
Speaker 1: one eight hundred fifty five one eight hundred