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Speaker 1: I've been coming up with some amazing studies recently for

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Speaker 1: the Doctor's Desk episodes and today no different. What is

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Speaker 1: the relationship between mother's screen time and children's developmental outcomes?

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Speaker 1: That is, if you're with the kids, you're on the phone,

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Speaker 1: you're on the screen, you're on the tablet, you're on

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Speaker 1: the whatever, and the kids are around it, does it

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Speaker 1: impact them at all? Does it matter at all?

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Speaker 2: Today?

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Speaker 1: That's what we're going to unpack. Stay with us. Welcome

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Speaker 1: to the Happy Families Podcast, Real parenting Solutions every day

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Speaker 1: on Australia's most downloaded parenting podcast. We are Justin and

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Speaker 1: Kylie Coulson. Kylie, I'm so excited to share this study

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Speaker 1: with you. I think this is an absolute dead set cracker.

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Speaker 2: I'm actually intrigued about this one because I don't.

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Speaker 1: Think I said it as excitedly as I should. It's

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Speaker 1: a deadset cracker. I'm really excited for this.

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Speaker 2: Well. I am intrigued by it because screens play such

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Speaker 2: a significant role in our lives. It's interesting to me

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Speaker 2: to think that our usage would have an impact on

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Speaker 2: our children's development.

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Speaker 1: Yeah. So there is a term for it. It's called

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Speaker 1: technoference and a number of studies over the years have

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Speaker 1: been looking at this idea of techno fference what happens

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Speaker 1: when you're on the phone, when you're on the screen, laptop, tablet,

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Speaker 1: whatever to the kids and their development. This was a

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Speaker 1: study that was conducted in Japan. It's been published in

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Speaker 1: a pretty high level journal. It's called Nature Scientific Reports.

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Speaker 1: Nature is one of the world's leading journals. Here it

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Speaker 1: is in a nutshell. You've got about just under four

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Speaker 1: thousand mother child pairs. Called it a diad mother child dieads,

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Speaker 1: so nearly four thousand of them. The kids are two.

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Speaker 1: And what we've got is essentially mums are filling in

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Speaker 1: the question. They're saying how much screen usage they've been

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Speaker 1: racking up in the presence of their child? Okay, and

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Speaker 1: then the child is being assessed in three domains. We're

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Speaker 1: looking at fine and gross motorabilities. We're talking about cognitive capacity,

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Speaker 1: visual spatial comprehension, and also interpersonal relation, their socialization and

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Speaker 1: verbal abilities. Okay, how much does mum being on a

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Speaker 1: screen in the presence of kiddo impact child development in

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Speaker 1: those three areas? And there was a whole lot of

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Speaker 1: very sophisticated analysis going on here. To make sure that

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Speaker 1: we were measuring or the researchers are measuring exactly what

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Speaker 1: they thought and taking into account a whole lot of

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Speaker 1: other things that could impact so they could statistically control

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Speaker 1: for it. Here's basically what they found. Kids of mums

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Speaker 1: who used digital media for one hour or more in

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Speaker 1: the presence of their child, those kids had lower language

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Speaker 1: and social development outcomes compared with the kids whose mums

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Speaker 1: did not use digital media while they were with them.

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Speaker 1: And for the children of mothers who used digital media

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Speaker 1: for two hours or more, they showed a lower total

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Speaker 1: development quotient compared with those mums who didn't use digital media.

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Speaker 1: In short, the wrap up, the summary of this is

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Speaker 1: that when mums used digit media for more than an

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Speaker 1: hour a day with their children, it's negatively associated with

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Speaker 1: language development in their two year olds, and use for

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Speaker 1: more than two hours is negatively associated with global development.

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Speaker 1: It has a significant impact across the board in terms

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Speaker 1: of all developmental facets and aspects, at least that we'll

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Speaker 1: look at in this study.

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Speaker 2: So a handful of years ago, research was heavily focused

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Speaker 2: on children's screen time and especially in those young years,

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Speaker 2: and how that impacts their development and now we find

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Speaker 2: ourselves here talking about mums specifically or parents in general

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Speaker 2: being on their screens in the presence of the children

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Speaker 2: and the impact it has. I'm curious to know how

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Speaker 2: the data compares well.

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Speaker 1: It all kind of shows the same thing, and there's

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Speaker 1: I wasn't expecting that question because of when we were

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Speaker 1: prepping before. I thought were going in a different direction.

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Speaker 1: But there is a whole lot of data that shows

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Speaker 1: that there's a correlation between mother's screen usage and children's

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Speaker 1: screas usage. So it seems that mums who use their

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Speaker 1: phones particularly or the devices particularly in the presence of

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Speaker 1: their children are much more likely to also give their

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Speaker 1: kids a device to use or allow them to use

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Speaker 1: the device as well. They're just less restrictive around device usage.

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Speaker 1: And there is a relationship between child use and developmental

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Speaker 1: outcomes generally, so when kids are using devices, when kids

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Speaker 1: are on screens, we see the same negative relationship. That is,

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Speaker 1: as device usage and screen usage goes up, developmental out

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Speaker 1: comes decrease, they become worse. So it works both ways.

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Speaker 1: When mums are on the devices or when kids are

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Speaker 1: on the devices, we get worse developmental outcomes for children.

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Speaker 2: So why is it that my screen usage while I'm

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Speaker 2: in the presence of my child has such a negative

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Speaker 2: impact on their developmental realities.

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Speaker 1: So I would say that it's not just for screen usage.

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Speaker 1: I'd say if you're preoccupied, because it affects your ability

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Speaker 1: to be responsive, It affects your ability to pay attention,

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Speaker 1: it affects your ability to be war and engaged with

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Speaker 1: your child and language and interactions like a tennis match.

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Speaker 1: There's that serve and return. The baby makes some sound

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Speaker 1: and then your eyes light up and you say it

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Speaker 1: sounds like you just said puppy. Or your child tries

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Speaker 1: to engage with you, or wants to play a game,

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Speaker 1: or asks some food, and you engage in response. So

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Speaker 1: that serve return, which is what usually developmental psychologists are

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Speaker 1: researching and talking about. It's harmed, it's reduced, it's interfered

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Speaker 1: with when we have got something else that's occupying this.

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Speaker 1: Once upon a time, if we were sitting there reading

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Speaker 1: a book or a magazine, it's just much easier to

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Speaker 1: tear yourself away from that than it is from a screen.

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Speaker 1: The screens are so darn good at keeping us completely

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Speaker 1: connected and completely focused on the screen. So fundamentally, what

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Speaker 1: it comes down to is parents are less There may

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Speaker 1: be more to it than this, but I think that

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Speaker 1: the real core of it his parents are less able

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Speaker 1: to engage with their kids, whether they know it or not,

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Speaker 1: because they're caught.

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Speaker 2: Up in the screen. This research, it sounds like it's

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Speaker 2: specifically dealing with handheld devices, but I am interested in

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Speaker 2: understanding and knowing whether or not having the TV on, say,

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Speaker 2: for instance, in the background, has the same kind of

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Speaker 2: impact on our children's development. I grew up in a

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Speaker 2: home where the TV was pretty much on all the time.

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Speaker 1: There was always still is it still is?

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Speaker 2: Yeah?

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Speaker 1: Yeah?

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Speaker 2: Yeah, So how does that impact kiz okay?

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Speaker 1: So, first a quick clarification. In this particular study the

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Speaker 1: screen usage, they were just looking at digital media use,

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Speaker 1: so we're talking about laptops, tablets, and phones. It's not

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Speaker 1: phone only. To move on to the broader question of TV,

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Speaker 1: this study didn't look at television specifically. It was only

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Speaker 1: looking at those smart, handheld or mobile type of devices.

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Speaker 1: The research around TV is now decades old, although TV

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Speaker 1: is changing because it's becoming increasingly interactive smart TVs, and

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Speaker 1: my take on it is this, if you've got the

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Speaker 1: opportunity to turn it off, turn it off. The background

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Speaker 1: noise becomes a distraction. There's also the increased stimulation, and

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Speaker 1: so that can reduce children's capacity to pay attention to

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Speaker 1: one thing. There's no such thing as multitasking. All we

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Speaker 1: do is dilute their attention on things that matter, like

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Speaker 1: looking into your eyes or reading the book or playing

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Speaker 1: with the game. Fundamentally, as well, you'll find that children

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Speaker 1: who are sitting in front of a TV, or if

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Speaker 1: the TV is even on, you're going to get less

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Speaker 1: physical activity. Sleep quality goes down, there's more noise, and

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Speaker 1: there's actually some really interesting research out there that looks

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Speaker 1: at just the impact of noise in the environment and

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Speaker 1: well being. And we're designed to be in quiet places,

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Speaker 1: so when there's always something going on, the brain's being stimulated.

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Speaker 1: But there's also a stress response. It's stressful to have

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Speaker 1: the screens going, it's stressful to have NonStop music, non

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Speaker 1: stop talk, non stop chatter, NonStop background noise. All of

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Speaker 1: that adds up to create a level of stress in

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Speaker 1: us and our children. It amplifies what's going on in

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Speaker 1: the nervous system. So I would generally say keep it off. However, however,

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Speaker 1: I will say this if you need to take a break,

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Speaker 1: whack the TV on. It's way better than giving them

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Speaker 1: an iPad or an iPhone or something like that. Why,

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Speaker 1: Because the TV has defined end points, you can turn

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Speaker 1: it off at the end of the episode. The TV

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Speaker 1: has narratives and storylines, and the TV doesn't have the

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Speaker 1: same stimulatory impact that devices have. When the kids are

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Speaker 1: playing games, there's just it's like a little mini casino

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Speaker 1: for your child's brain with all the excitatory stimulatory lottery

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Speaker 1: sounding whizzes and pops and bells and whistles and opportunities

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Speaker 1: to win. And this is not what's good for kids' brains.

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Speaker 1: So at least if they're watching an episode of Blue

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Speaker 1: or if they're watching something on ABC kids, they get

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Speaker 1: to relax, it develop some emphy meld into a storyline.

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Speaker 1: You don't want too much of it, but it's better

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Speaker 1: than it's better than the alternative.

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Speaker 2: So I find this whole scenario quite intriguing because at

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Speaker 2: the heart of it, kids are copycats, right, That's how

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Speaker 2: they learn. So they hear something and they repeat it often.

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Speaker 2: I think about in my childhood Sesame street play school.

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Speaker 2: They were the places where I learned my ABC's I

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Speaker 2: learned how to count I before I was even at school, right,

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Speaker 2: And we're having a conversation about the fact that our

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Speaker 2: children's development is delayed by being exposed to these things,

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Speaker 2: and I kind of just want to push back on

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Speaker 2: it a little bit, because, like I remember, I remember

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Speaker 2: when my youngest sister was only about three, she went

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Speaker 2: and was babysat by a friend, and she came home

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Speaker 2: and out of nowhere, at the dinner table, she let

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Speaker 2: the F bomb far out, far out, yes, and we

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Speaker 2: all were like, what the heck. Anyway, as it turned out,

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Speaker 2: the people who had babysat her had the TV on

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Speaker 2: and it hads worn, and literally she heard it, and

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Speaker 2: it took my parents months to eradicate that from her vocabulary.

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Speaker 2: And so here's my thinking. It's like kids hear things

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Speaker 2: and they repeat them, which would actually, in my mind,

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Speaker 2: help language development, but this study is suggesting that it

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Speaker 2: actually doesn't.

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Speaker 1: Not exactly the language development that you want. Okay, So

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Speaker 1: there are a couple of really easy things that I

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Speaker 1: can respond to here that are based in the very

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Speaker 1: best research evidence. First of all, children do repeat what

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Speaker 1: they hear. However, they are much more likely, especially when

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Speaker 1: they're young, they're much more likely to repeat what they're

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Speaker 1: hearing in a real person conversation rather than what's on

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Speaker 1: the screen. Even when they do repeat what's on the screen,

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Speaker 1: though they don't necessarily have the context or the understanding

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Speaker 1: of the vocabulary, And that part of my system partly

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Speaker 1: explains what's going on there. Research evidence really clearly does say, though,

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Speaker 1: that while the TV might reinforce things that they have

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Speaker 1: been learning, it's not a good teacher. So, yes, you

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Speaker 1: mentioned that you were listening to Sesame Street or play

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Speaker 1: school and you learned your ABCS or you're counting, you

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Speaker 1: probably didn't actually learn it there. You learned it as

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Speaker 1: you were reading books with your parents, or as you

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Speaker 1: were spending time with friends, grandparents, whoever, whatever, at preschool,

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Speaker 1: and then when you see it and hear it on

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Speaker 1: Sesame Street, you have that reinforced. Moreover, here we are

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Speaker 1: in our forties and fifties, and we're reflecting back and saying,

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Speaker 1: I learned it on Sesame Street. The reality is we

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Speaker 1: don't know where we learned it. We can't remember exactly

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Speaker 1: where the best learning took place for us when we

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Speaker 1: were living forty plus years ago. So our ability to

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Speaker 1: accurately recall where we learned is minimized, and the research

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Speaker 1: evidence certainly indicates that TV is a poor teacher relative

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Speaker 1: to any other option that's out there. So if we

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Speaker 1: sum it up, these parents in this study from Japan,

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Speaker 1: the more that they're on there screens, the more they

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Speaker 1: diminish their children's positive developmental outcomes. I think that's the

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Speaker 1: really important take home message.

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Speaker 2: All right, Well, it sounds a little bit doom and

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Speaker 2: gloom right now, So what are we going to do

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Speaker 2: about this?

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Speaker 1: I just want to pick you up on that doom

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Speaker 1: and gloom. Pretty Much every conversation we have about screens

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Speaker 1: when they're not used intentionally, creatively, constructively and in moderation,

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Speaker 1: the story is doom and gloom, particularly when it comes

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Speaker 1: to our kids. So the take home message, I mean,

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Speaker 1: we are about real parenting solutions every day on our podcast.

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Speaker 1: The take home messages to the extent that it's possible

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Speaker 1: keep screens away from your face, away from your eyes,

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Speaker 1: and away from your kid's eyes when they're growing up.

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Speaker 1: It's really that simple. They will simply do better when

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Speaker 1: they are engaged in analogue, person to person, face to

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Speaker 1: face conversations. Last year we talked about a study that

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Speaker 1: just fascinated me where kids were having zoom conversations or

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Speaker 1: face to face conversations with their mum, and their brain

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Speaker 1: waves were being measured and there was nine times activated,

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Speaker 1: nine times the activation in a face to face conversation

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Speaker 1: compared to a zoom call. If that doesn't tell you

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Speaker 1: that screens are a hollow imitation of the real thing

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Speaker 1: of real life and are therefore not even nearly moving

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Speaker 1: towards optimal development for our kids, I don't know what

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Speaker 1: else will. I just I think this conversation is fascinating.

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Speaker 1: It so important. That's why I keep on digging up

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Speaker 1: these brand new, increasingly compelling studies that point in one direction,

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Speaker 1: and that is minimize our kids screen access. We'll link,

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Speaker 1: as we always do, to this doctor's desk study in

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Speaker 1: the show notes. Thanks so much for listening. We hope

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Speaker 1: that you get heaps out of these podcasts and they're useful.

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Speaker 1: If you've liked what we've talked about, please share the

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Speaker 1: podcast with a friend. You can thought it really easily

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Speaker 1: by clicking a couple of buttons. And I just know

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Speaker 1: that our podcast episodes can help people to make their

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Speaker 1: families happier. We really appreciate the work of Justin rule

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Speaker 1: On from Bridge Media. He is our producer and our

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Speaker 1: show notes and other research assistance is from Mim Hammond's.

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Speaker 1: If you'd like more information and resources make your family happier,

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Speaker 1: visit happy families dot com. Do you m hm