1 00:00:01,240 --> 00:00:03,520 Speaker 1: My name is Lily Maddon and I'm a proud Arunda 2 00:00:03,760 --> 00:00:08,560 Speaker 1: Bungelung Calcotin woman from Gadigl Country. The Daily oz acknowledges 3 00:00:08,640 --> 00:00:10,799 Speaker 1: that this podcast is recorded on the lands of the 4 00:00:10,840 --> 00:00:14,400 Speaker 1: Gadighl people and pays respect to all Aboriginal and Torres 5 00:00:14,400 --> 00:00:17,319 Speaker 1: Strait Island and nations. We pay our respects to the 6 00:00:17,320 --> 00:00:20,119 Speaker 1: first peoples of these countries, both past and present. 7 00:00:20,520 --> 00:00:23,400 Speaker 2: Just the heads up, in this episode, we do mention suicide, 8 00:00:23,440 --> 00:00:25,400 Speaker 2: so if you're not in the right headspace to listen 9 00:00:25,440 --> 00:00:30,040 Speaker 2: to this, you can check back in tomorrow morning. Good 10 00:00:30,040 --> 00:00:32,519 Speaker 2: morning and welcome to the Daily os. It's Tuesday, the 11 00:00:32,560 --> 00:00:34,040 Speaker 2: fifth of December. I'm Zara. 12 00:00:34,159 --> 00:00:36,960 Speaker 3: I'm Nina tda's pod producer standing in for Sam. 13 00:00:37,080 --> 00:00:40,080 Speaker 2: A federal court ruling means it's illegal for doctors to 14 00:00:40,080 --> 00:00:45,639 Speaker 2: give patients information about voluntary assisted dying via telehealth. This 15 00:00:45,680 --> 00:00:49,400 Speaker 2: is despite voluntary sisted dying being legal now in every 16 00:00:49,440 --> 00:00:52,760 Speaker 2: single state in Australia. So how did this ruling occur 17 00:00:52,920 --> 00:00:55,800 Speaker 2: and what will it mean moving forward. We'll let you 18 00:00:55,840 --> 00:00:59,000 Speaker 2: know in today's deep dive. But first the headlines. 19 00:00:59,480 --> 00:01:02,480 Speaker 3: Pra minis to Anthony Alberzi has announced that labor m 20 00:01:02,520 --> 00:01:05,800 Speaker 3: P Peter Murphy has passed away. Murphy was the member 21 00:01:05,840 --> 00:01:08,440 Speaker 3: for the Victorian seat of Dunkley. Two weeks after being 22 00:01:08,440 --> 00:01:11,880 Speaker 3: sworn into parliament in twenty nineteen, Murphy received a second 23 00:01:12,000 --> 00:01:15,720 Speaker 3: cancer diagnosis after initially being diagnosed with breast cancer in 24 00:01:15,800 --> 00:01:19,800 Speaker 3: twenty eleven. Murphy had been serving in Parliament until last week. 25 00:01:20,160 --> 00:01:23,000 Speaker 3: Albanzi called her the most inspiring of colleagues and the 26 00:01:23,120 --> 00:01:24,399 Speaker 3: very best kind of friend. 27 00:01:24,520 --> 00:01:29,440 Speaker 4: This parliament was a better place for Peter Murphy being 28 00:01:29,480 --> 00:01:34,959 Speaker 4: elected to the House of Representatives. This country was a 29 00:01:34,959 --> 00:01:40,960 Speaker 4: better nation for her contribution made Peter Murphy rested base. 30 00:01:42,280 --> 00:01:44,800 Speaker 2: The Gold Coast has pulled out its bid to host 31 00:01:44,840 --> 00:01:47,840 Speaker 2: the Commonwealth Games in twenty twenty six, citing a lack 32 00:01:47,920 --> 00:01:50,760 Speaker 2: of government funding. The Mayor of the Gold Coast, Tom Tait, 33 00:01:50,960 --> 00:01:53,800 Speaker 2: said the community's vision for the Games did not align 34 00:01:53,800 --> 00:01:56,960 Speaker 2: with the vision of the state or federal governments. This 35 00:01:57,080 --> 00:01:59,320 Speaker 2: comes after Victoria pulled out the bid in July. 36 00:02:00,320 --> 00:02:04,000 Speaker 3: A volcano has erupted in Indonesia, leaving eleven climbers dead 37 00:02:04,040 --> 00:02:08,480 Speaker 3: and twelve people missing. Mount Marapi in western Sumatra erupted 38 00:02:08,480 --> 00:02:11,440 Speaker 3: on Sunday, with ash reaching as high as three kilometers 39 00:02:11,840 --> 00:02:14,960 Speaker 3: there were forty nine climbers who were evacuated from the area, 40 00:02:15,040 --> 00:02:17,560 Speaker 3: and searches for the missing people have been paused after 41 00:02:17,600 --> 00:02:20,240 Speaker 3: a second, smaller eruption occurred on Monday. 42 00:02:20,840 --> 00:02:24,239 Speaker 2: And the good news. Scientists have discovered that chin strap 43 00:02:24,320 --> 00:02:28,560 Speaker 2: penguins have thousands of microsleepes each day during breeding season. 44 00:02:29,200 --> 00:02:31,400 Speaker 2: That's so that they can stay alert to look after 45 00:02:31,440 --> 00:02:34,880 Speaker 2: their baby chicks. The Korean Polar Research Institute studied a 46 00:02:34,960 --> 00:02:37,960 Speaker 2: chin strap colony in Antarctica for two weeks and found 47 00:02:38,000 --> 00:02:41,840 Speaker 2: the species countless microsleepes of around four seconds each added 48 00:02:41,919 --> 00:02:44,560 Speaker 2: up to an average of around eleven hours of sleep 49 00:02:44,680 --> 00:02:51,560 Speaker 2: a day. That sounds like something I should do, Nina, 50 00:02:51,680 --> 00:02:55,240 Speaker 2: I do feel like, especially in the last few weeks, 51 00:02:55,320 --> 00:02:58,320 Speaker 2: there has been a lot of news about voluntary assisted 52 00:02:58,440 --> 00:03:02,840 Speaker 2: dying on a state level and now on a federal level. 53 00:03:03,200 --> 00:03:05,160 Speaker 2: But I'm also hyper aware that in the news we 54 00:03:05,320 --> 00:03:07,560 Speaker 2: use a lot of acronyms, so you might have read 55 00:03:07,600 --> 00:03:11,200 Speaker 2: it as VAD, so voluntary assisted dying. Before we go 56 00:03:11,280 --> 00:03:13,560 Speaker 2: into kind of the news hook why we're talking about 57 00:03:13,600 --> 00:03:16,200 Speaker 2: it today, I did just want to explain what voluntary 58 00:03:16,280 --> 00:03:20,880 Speaker 2: assisted dying actually means. So essentially, voluntary assisted dying of 59 00:03:21,000 --> 00:03:25,160 Speaker 2: VAD allows eligible people with life threatening illnesses to choose 60 00:03:25,200 --> 00:03:28,280 Speaker 2: the time and the manner of their death, so you 61 00:03:28,400 --> 00:03:31,520 Speaker 2: might know it as euthanasia. It's certainly something that has 62 00:03:31,600 --> 00:03:34,480 Speaker 2: existed for quite a while, but only recently have we 63 00:03:34,560 --> 00:03:38,400 Speaker 2: really seen it take its legal form in Australia. The 64 00:03:38,480 --> 00:03:41,720 Speaker 2: term voluntary involuntary assisted dying is important because it's a 65 00:03:41,800 --> 00:03:44,400 Speaker 2: choice that people in these situations can make when they're 66 00:03:44,400 --> 00:03:46,280 Speaker 2: approaching the end of their life. 67 00:03:46,320 --> 00:03:48,400 Speaker 3: You mentioned that we got some news out of New 68 00:03:48,440 --> 00:03:51,720 Speaker 3: South Wales that it was now allowed for there. What's 69 00:03:51,760 --> 00:03:55,160 Speaker 3: the status about where voluntary assisted dying is currently legal 70 00:03:55,160 --> 00:03:56,800 Speaker 3: and where is it still not legal? 71 00:03:57,320 --> 00:04:00,880 Speaker 2: So New South Wales became the last state in Australia, 72 00:04:00,880 --> 00:04:03,840 Speaker 2: and I say state quite deliberately to pass laws allowing 73 00:04:04,080 --> 00:04:07,840 Speaker 2: voluntarists to dying. So in New South Wales now to 74 00:04:07,920 --> 00:04:11,240 Speaker 2: access voluntarists to dying, a person must be eighteen years 75 00:04:11,320 --> 00:04:13,760 Speaker 2: or older and they must have a disease, illness or 76 00:04:13,800 --> 00:04:17,120 Speaker 2: medical condition that would cause death in six to twelve months. 77 00:04:17,279 --> 00:04:20,120 Speaker 2: So that's in New South Wales. The reason I said 78 00:04:20,160 --> 00:04:23,039 Speaker 2: state so deliberately is because it's not yet legal in 79 00:04:23,120 --> 00:04:26,880 Speaker 2: the Act or the Northern territory. Both territories have flagged 80 00:04:26,880 --> 00:04:29,800 Speaker 2: that they're looking into making it lawful because the federal 81 00:04:29,839 --> 00:04:32,520 Speaker 2: government recently changed its laws. I actually think we did 82 00:04:32,520 --> 00:04:33,560 Speaker 2: an episode. 83 00:04:33,200 --> 00:04:34,760 Speaker 3: We have I was going to say, there are some 84 00:04:34,800 --> 00:04:38,400 Speaker 3: really interesting reasons about why the territories don't have this 85 00:04:38,520 --> 00:04:41,040 Speaker 3: metical law, and it's because they actually couldn't until very 86 00:04:41,080 --> 00:04:43,800 Speaker 3: recently make their own laws on things like euthanasia or 87 00:04:43,839 --> 00:04:46,280 Speaker 3: voluntarists to dying. And I'll pop a link to one 88 00:04:46,320 --> 00:04:48,440 Speaker 3: of those episodes and they're podcast producer. 89 00:04:48,480 --> 00:04:52,160 Speaker 2: You are, Nina. So actually in the Act, the government's 90 00:04:52,160 --> 00:04:55,919 Speaker 2: introduced voluntary assisted dying laws there. If those are past 91 00:04:56,000 --> 00:04:58,400 Speaker 2: it could mean that the Act could have the most 92 00:04:58,400 --> 00:05:01,400 Speaker 2: progressive voluntary sist to dying laws in the country, but 93 00:05:01,480 --> 00:05:02,640 Speaker 2: that hasn't yet passed. 94 00:05:02,680 --> 00:05:05,719 Speaker 3: So voluntary assisted dying is pretty much legal across the 95 00:05:05,720 --> 00:05:08,200 Speaker 3: country and in all of the states, and the territories 96 00:05:08,240 --> 00:05:10,839 Speaker 3: are moving forward. Why are we talking about this today? 97 00:05:11,040 --> 00:05:15,560 Speaker 2: So despite it now being legal in every state in Australia, 98 00:05:15,800 --> 00:05:18,640 Speaker 2: we live in a federation, so there are state laws 99 00:05:18,640 --> 00:05:21,520 Speaker 2: and there are federal laws, and at a federal level. 100 00:05:21,560 --> 00:05:24,839 Speaker 2: There was a doctor, his name's doctor Nick Carr, who 101 00:05:24,880 --> 00:05:27,039 Speaker 2: brought a case that said that at a federal level 102 00:05:27,120 --> 00:05:30,280 Speaker 2: it wasn't clear whether doctors could give patients advice about 103 00:05:30,360 --> 00:05:32,719 Speaker 2: voluntary assisted dying over the phone. 104 00:05:33,080 --> 00:05:36,120 Speaker 3: So at a federal level, what was the point of contention? 105 00:05:36,279 --> 00:05:38,000 Speaker 3: What was causing confusion for doctors? 106 00:05:38,360 --> 00:05:43,160 Speaker 2: So under Australian law, inciting suicide through a carriage service, 107 00:05:43,320 --> 00:05:46,800 Speaker 2: that's carriage. Yeah, it's just phone, video call or email, 108 00:05:46,920 --> 00:05:50,240 Speaker 2: so I like, not face to face, that's considered a 109 00:05:50,279 --> 00:05:53,560 Speaker 2: criminal act. So for doctor Carr, he said that there 110 00:05:53,600 --> 00:05:55,800 Speaker 2: was a bit of a gray area in the law because, 111 00:05:55,839 --> 00:05:57,640 Speaker 2: of course, as we've said, at a state level, it 112 00:05:57,680 --> 00:06:00,040 Speaker 2: was legal for a patient to ask a doctor for 113 00:06:00,120 --> 00:06:03,720 Speaker 2: advice on voluntary assisted dying, but at a national level, 114 00:06:04,000 --> 00:06:07,080 Speaker 2: it's illegal to incite someone to suicide over the phone 115 00:06:07,200 --> 00:06:10,360 Speaker 2: or on a video call. And so essentially what emerged 116 00:06:10,440 --> 00:06:13,479 Speaker 2: was this discussion about whether or not doctors could provide 117 00:06:13,520 --> 00:06:18,120 Speaker 2: this health advice around voluntary assisted dying in a telehealth forum, 118 00:06:18,160 --> 00:06:20,880 Speaker 2: so on the phone, or whether they were actually committing 119 00:06:20,920 --> 00:06:22,520 Speaker 2: a criminal action in doing so. 120 00:06:22,760 --> 00:06:24,400 Speaker 3: When I heard about the story, I was a bit 121 00:06:24,480 --> 00:06:27,839 Speaker 3: confused because I kind of thought, how important is telehealth 122 00:06:27,880 --> 00:06:30,359 Speaker 3: in these situations? But it hadn't really occurred to me 123 00:06:30,400 --> 00:06:33,760 Speaker 3: that I guess for people who are seeking voluntary assisted dying, 124 00:06:33,800 --> 00:06:35,760 Speaker 3: they might be so ill that actually going to see 125 00:06:35,760 --> 00:06:36,839 Speaker 3: a doctor is really. 126 00:06:36,680 --> 00:06:39,800 Speaker 2: Hard one hundred percent. So there's those people that are 127 00:06:39,800 --> 00:06:42,479 Speaker 2: in that situation. If you then think about who else 128 00:06:42,560 --> 00:06:46,320 Speaker 2: might be affected, so say you are very ill, you 129 00:06:46,400 --> 00:06:50,000 Speaker 2: are then also perhaps regional or rural. You now have 130 00:06:50,120 --> 00:06:53,160 Speaker 2: two reasons why it's incredibly difficult to be able to 131 00:06:53,160 --> 00:06:57,120 Speaker 2: seek out medical help. But ultimately, it was those people 132 00:06:57,360 --> 00:06:59,680 Speaker 2: that this doctor said was going to be disadvantage to 133 00:06:59,680 --> 00:07:02,000 Speaker 2: the most by these laws. 134 00:07:02,080 --> 00:07:04,040 Speaker 3: And when he took that argument to court, what did 135 00:07:04,080 --> 00:07:05,360 Speaker 3: the court say? What was decided? 136 00:07:05,560 --> 00:07:08,160 Speaker 2: So the federal court did acknowledge that there was this 137 00:07:08,240 --> 00:07:11,440 Speaker 2: inconsistency between state and federal laws and that there was 138 00:07:11,480 --> 00:07:13,960 Speaker 2: this gray area. And that's nothing new, I mean, that's 139 00:07:14,000 --> 00:07:18,440 Speaker 2: the way fatterally exactly, that is so complex. But the 140 00:07:18,520 --> 00:07:21,760 Speaker 2: judge presiding over the matter, Justice Wendy Abraham, said that 141 00:07:21,840 --> 00:07:25,320 Speaker 2: if doctors do give information about voluntary assisted dying to 142 00:07:25,400 --> 00:07:28,760 Speaker 2: patients via telehealth, then they would fall foul of the 143 00:07:28,800 --> 00:07:32,000 Speaker 2: criminal Code and that they would actually then be committing 144 00:07:32,040 --> 00:07:34,880 Speaker 2: a crime. So essentially what it means now is that 145 00:07:34,960 --> 00:07:37,280 Speaker 2: it is a criminal offense for doctors to provide that 146 00:07:37,360 --> 00:07:40,520 Speaker 2: advice over the phone, over zoom over any of those 147 00:07:40,560 --> 00:07:42,440 Speaker 2: sorts of carriages as they call it. 148 00:07:42,480 --> 00:07:44,720 Speaker 3: And you mentioned it was a doctor who brought this forward, 149 00:07:44,760 --> 00:07:47,280 Speaker 3: presumably a doctor with some concern about what would happen 150 00:07:47,360 --> 00:07:49,800 Speaker 3: if they were in a position where they were convicted 151 00:07:49,800 --> 00:07:52,000 Speaker 3: for doing something like this. So how did he respond 152 00:07:52,000 --> 00:07:54,520 Speaker 3: when this court ruled that it wasn't lawful? 153 00:07:54,720 --> 00:07:58,200 Speaker 2: Well, he said, and I quote, it's an enormous disappointment 154 00:07:58,240 --> 00:08:01,560 Speaker 2: for terminally ill people in rural and regional Australia who 155 00:08:01,560 --> 00:08:04,120 Speaker 2: were too ill to travel to medical appointments to seek 156 00:08:04,200 --> 00:08:08,080 Speaker 2: voluntary assisted dying. Pretty clear there what he thinks about 157 00:08:08,080 --> 00:08:09,000 Speaker 2: that ruling. 158 00:08:08,960 --> 00:08:10,560 Speaker 3: And what is the government said? Do you know, is 159 00:08:10,560 --> 00:08:14,240 Speaker 3: there any plans to change the laws? So we reached out. 160 00:08:14,120 --> 00:08:17,440 Speaker 2: To the government shortly after the Federal Court handed down 161 00:08:17,520 --> 00:08:20,320 Speaker 2: its decision. At that point they said that they had 162 00:08:20,440 --> 00:08:23,920 Speaker 2: seen the decision, but they didn't really tell us much else. 163 00:08:24,400 --> 00:08:28,160 Speaker 2: We did hear from a teal independent Kate Cheney, who 164 00:08:28,280 --> 00:08:31,200 Speaker 2: is quite a strong advocate in this space, certainly had 165 00:08:31,200 --> 00:08:33,400 Speaker 2: a lot to say about it, and she said that 166 00:08:33,440 --> 00:08:37,000 Speaker 2: she'd spoken to a couple of people who were very 167 00:08:37,040 --> 00:08:39,680 Speaker 2: ill and had driven for hours to meet doctors in 168 00:08:39,880 --> 00:08:43,600 Speaker 2: a car park to receive a prescription for her She 169 00:08:43,679 --> 00:08:45,960 Speaker 2: said that she doesn't believe criminal laws should apply to 170 00:08:46,000 --> 00:08:48,839 Speaker 2: doctors trying to provide advice to patients as a way 171 00:08:48,880 --> 00:08:51,480 Speaker 2: of cutting those really long journeys, especially when one is 172 00:08:51,520 --> 00:08:55,120 Speaker 2: so fragile or so ill. Kate Cheney's office also confirmed 173 00:08:55,160 --> 00:08:57,599 Speaker 2: to us that she will introduce legislation next year that 174 00:08:57,640 --> 00:09:01,080 Speaker 2: would seek to reverse the court's decision. Said she'd spoken 175 00:09:01,120 --> 00:09:03,560 Speaker 2: to the Attorney General about changing the laws, but at 176 00:09:03,559 --> 00:09:05,640 Speaker 2: this point it's not clear if the government would support it, 177 00:09:05,640 --> 00:09:07,280 Speaker 2: and would be pretty hard to get up if the 178 00:09:07,320 --> 00:09:08,440 Speaker 2: government didn't support it. 179 00:09:08,440 --> 00:09:10,080 Speaker 3: So definitely want to keep an eye on it is. 180 00:09:10,120 --> 00:09:12,720 Speaker 2: And I think that there's always going to be discussions 181 00:09:12,800 --> 00:09:16,120 Speaker 2: had around you know, there's obviously the big moral question 182 00:09:16,480 --> 00:09:20,080 Speaker 2: about voluntary sisted dying, and people will fall into different 183 00:09:20,080 --> 00:09:22,960 Speaker 2: positions on that depending on any number of things, how 184 00:09:22,960 --> 00:09:26,000 Speaker 2: they see the world, their religion, whatever else. I think 185 00:09:26,080 --> 00:09:29,479 Speaker 2: that though, when it comes to how it works practically, 186 00:09:30,000 --> 00:09:32,160 Speaker 2: this is a very new thing that governments are now 187 00:09:32,200 --> 00:09:34,839 Speaker 2: having to deal with, and I suspect that there will 188 00:09:34,880 --> 00:09:39,520 Speaker 2: be these like very practical elements that perhaps won't reflect 189 00:09:39,600 --> 00:09:42,160 Speaker 2: community sentiment for a while, but I think that's just 190 00:09:42,200 --> 00:09:43,120 Speaker 2: the nature of the law. 191 00:09:43,640 --> 00:09:45,599 Speaker 3: Thanks so much for listening to this episode of The 192 00:09:45,679 --> 00:09:48,280 Speaker 3: Daily Ods. If it did bring up anything for you, you 193 00:09:48,120 --> 00:09:51,599 Speaker 3: can always call Lifeline on thirteen eleven fourteen. Sam and 194 00:09:51,720 --> 00:09:54,360 Speaker 3: Zara will be back again tomorrow. Until then, have an 195 00:09:54,360 --> 00:09:59,880 Speaker 3: excellent day.