1 00:00:00,800 --> 00:00:03,960 Speaker 1: Can everybody see me? Just wait, I'm going to share 2 00:00:04,000 --> 00:00:07,520 Speaker 1: my screen. Wait, hang on a second, Okay have I 3 00:00:07,680 --> 00:00:13,840 Speaker 1: Now we've all sat in these dry zoom presentations that 4 00:00:13,880 --> 00:00:18,960 Speaker 1: are slow, boring and engaging and often just plain painful. 5 00:00:19,720 --> 00:00:22,959 Speaker 1: We think to ourselves, how much longer is this going 6 00:00:23,040 --> 00:00:26,000 Speaker 1: to go? For? And don't forget to smile and look 7 00:00:26,079 --> 00:00:30,040 Speaker 1: like you're listening. But does it actually have to be 8 00:00:30,200 --> 00:00:35,520 Speaker 1: this way? Co founder and CEO of Phil Libbin thinks 9 00:00:35,600 --> 00:00:39,400 Speaker 1: definitely not. He's designed a tool that will have your 10 00:00:39,440 --> 00:00:44,360 Speaker 1: colleagues entertained and even laughing during presentations by providing you 11 00:00:44,400 --> 00:00:47,760 Speaker 1: with lots of fun tools and gadgets to utilize so 12 00:00:47,800 --> 00:00:52,200 Speaker 1: to stop your workmates from tuning out. And this isn't 13 00:00:52,240 --> 00:00:56,240 Speaker 1: the first time Phil has looked to make life better 14 00:00:56,440 --> 00:01:00,720 Speaker 1: and easier with technology, because before m M. Phil and 15 00:01:00,800 --> 00:01:05,240 Speaker 1: his team created the life changing note taking app ever 16 00:01:05,319 --> 00:01:09,319 Speaker 1: note which I have been using every single day, many 17 00:01:09,360 --> 00:01:11,440 Speaker 1: times a day, for the better part of a decade. 18 00:01:12,720 --> 00:01:16,319 Speaker 1: So when it comes to building a business, which Phil 19 00:01:16,440 --> 00:01:20,600 Speaker 1: has plenty of experience doing, why are the numbers three 20 00:01:20,840 --> 00:01:25,400 Speaker 1: and ten critical? And why is it better to be 21 00:01:25,680 --> 00:01:28,360 Speaker 1: positive during a meeting instead of trying to appear to 22 00:01:28,400 --> 00:01:31,600 Speaker 1: be smart, and how can working from a museum help 23 00:01:31,640 --> 00:01:36,600 Speaker 1: you solve complex problems? And why is it important to 24 00:01:36,640 --> 00:01:46,559 Speaker 1: differentiate between difficult versus unpleasant decisions. My name is doctor 25 00:01:46,560 --> 00:01:50,040 Speaker 1: Amantha Imba. I'm an organizational psychologist and the founder of 26 00:01:50,080 --> 00:01:54,320 Speaker 1: behavioral science consultancy Inventium, And this is how I work 27 00:01:54,640 --> 00:01:57,800 Speaker 1: a show about how to help you do your best work. 28 00:01:59,040 --> 00:01:59,840 Speaker 2: So I've seen you. 29 00:02:00,360 --> 00:02:07,040 Speaker 1: Fiel's latest technology product, spelled mmmmm for about six months, 30 00:02:08,200 --> 00:02:12,320 Speaker 1: solves one of my biggest frustrations with traditional meeting software, 31 00:02:12,720 --> 00:02:15,520 Speaker 1: which is that the slides when you're making a presentation 32 00:02:15,680 --> 00:02:19,560 Speaker 1: are really big, and the human presenting becomes the size 33 00:02:19,600 --> 00:02:24,000 Speaker 1: of a postage stamp. So with m you can superimpose 34 00:02:24,080 --> 00:02:26,960 Speaker 1: your slides in the background and put yourself in the 35 00:02:26,960 --> 00:02:30,320 Speaker 1: foreground at any size that you want to be, which 36 00:02:30,360 --> 00:02:33,160 Speaker 1: is great for actually making a connection with the people 37 00:02:33,160 --> 00:02:36,320 Speaker 1: that you're speaking to. So I wanted to know from Phil, 38 00:02:36,840 --> 00:02:40,079 Speaker 1: who's obviously thought a lot about this, what is the 39 00:02:40,120 --> 00:02:43,640 Speaker 1: ideal way to use slides in a meeting or a presentation. 40 00:02:44,560 --> 00:02:48,040 Speaker 3: Well, I think companies who make presentation software, you know, 41 00:02:48,280 --> 00:02:50,520 Speaker 3: who are in the business of making slides, they very 42 00:02:50,560 --> 00:02:53,400 Speaker 3: naturally act as if the slide is the most important thing. 43 00:02:54,080 --> 00:02:57,520 Speaker 3: And so like this whole like PowerPoint culture of slides 44 00:02:57,600 --> 00:03:00,840 Speaker 3: kind of comes from that. And it isn't like you're 45 00:03:00,960 --> 00:03:03,440 Speaker 3: you're much more important than the slides. That the presenter, 46 00:03:03,520 --> 00:03:05,960 Speaker 3: the person doing the talking, is much more important. So 47 00:03:06,000 --> 00:03:08,160 Speaker 3: the slides are really there as background material, which is 48 00:03:08,160 --> 00:03:11,160 Speaker 3: why we literally put them in the background instead of 49 00:03:11,200 --> 00:03:12,600 Speaker 3: you know, right next to you or in front of 50 00:03:12,680 --> 00:03:15,720 Speaker 3: you in most setups, because the focus really should be 51 00:03:15,840 --> 00:03:18,640 Speaker 3: on you and your face, on on how you're communicating, 52 00:03:18,680 --> 00:03:21,880 Speaker 3: and having the slides be you know, a visual reinforcement 53 00:03:23,160 --> 00:03:25,359 Speaker 3: of it. We're trying to change the cognitive style of 54 00:03:25,400 --> 00:03:28,600 Speaker 3: presentations because they think that the cognitive style of PowerPoint 55 00:03:28,639 --> 00:03:31,160 Speaker 3: is is quite weak. It's the style of you know, 56 00:03:31,200 --> 00:03:34,160 Speaker 3: of pitching of bullet points of things like that. They're 57 00:03:34,200 --> 00:03:37,720 Speaker 3: these sort of lazy crutches that don't lead to very 58 00:03:37,760 --> 00:03:40,680 Speaker 3: effect presentations. And I think on video they're just terrible. 59 00:03:40,720 --> 00:03:43,960 Speaker 3: Like they think PowerPoint is barely you know, effective in 60 00:03:44,000 --> 00:03:48,360 Speaker 3: real life. On video, it's it's pretty much unbearable. Luckily, 61 00:03:48,360 --> 00:03:52,000 Speaker 3: there's plenty of examples of really effective video communications and slides. 62 00:03:52,040 --> 00:03:53,560 Speaker 3: You just have to go to TV. You have to 63 00:03:53,560 --> 00:03:56,160 Speaker 3: go to you know, comedy shows, Saturday Night Live, the 64 00:03:56,240 --> 00:03:57,839 Speaker 3: Daily Show, that kind of stuff. So we just tried 65 00:03:57,840 --> 00:04:00,680 Speaker 3: to recapture that kind of spirit where it's a person 66 00:04:00,720 --> 00:04:03,120 Speaker 3: talking or multiple people talking, and the slides are meant 67 00:04:03,160 --> 00:04:06,160 Speaker 3: to kind of be the punchline, the visual reinforcement from 68 00:04:06,200 --> 00:04:07,800 Speaker 3: time to time. I love that. 69 00:04:07,920 --> 00:04:10,680 Speaker 1: I mean, it's in a way, it's kind of it's 70 00:04:10,680 --> 00:04:13,120 Speaker 1: such an obvious thing to do to put the person 71 00:04:13,160 --> 00:04:15,560 Speaker 1: in front of the slides. And certainly one of my 72 00:04:15,680 --> 00:04:18,760 Speaker 1: pet hates in terms of how like Zoom works is 73 00:04:18,800 --> 00:04:21,520 Speaker 1: that the presenter is the size of a postage stamp 74 00:04:21,600 --> 00:04:24,359 Speaker 1: and the slides are enormous. And for me that was 75 00:04:24,360 --> 00:04:27,520 Speaker 1: a game changer when I started using MHM and suddenly 76 00:04:27,520 --> 00:04:28,640 Speaker 1: the focus is on the human. 77 00:04:29,040 --> 00:04:32,000 Speaker 2: So I'm curious for you when you're creating a slide deck, 78 00:04:32,040 --> 00:04:36,080 Speaker 2: when you're trying to put forward an idea or a presentation, 79 00:04:36,960 --> 00:04:39,159 Speaker 2: what are some of the rules that you're thinking about 80 00:04:39,160 --> 00:04:41,120 Speaker 2: when you're designing slides. 81 00:04:42,120 --> 00:04:43,919 Speaker 3: In the beginning, I think I just started. I was 82 00:04:43,920 --> 00:04:46,360 Speaker 3: just using my keynote slides, you know, Keynote or power slides. 83 00:04:46,400 --> 00:04:48,080 Speaker 3: I was importing him in there. You can drag him 84 00:04:48,080 --> 00:04:52,040 Speaker 3: into MHM and doing that, and some people still do that. 85 00:04:52,080 --> 00:04:54,919 Speaker 3: I pretty much stopped doing that almost immediately because they 86 00:04:55,000 --> 00:04:58,520 Speaker 3: realized that actually I wanted the constraint of authoring the 87 00:04:58,520 --> 00:05:01,239 Speaker 3: slides in MM because they're much much briefer than much shorter. 88 00:05:01,560 --> 00:05:03,520 Speaker 3: So usually it's just a couple of words or a 89 00:05:03,520 --> 00:05:07,039 Speaker 3: gift or a picture or maybe one chart. There's no 90 00:05:07,160 --> 00:05:11,120 Speaker 3: point in having, you know, multiple sentences, multiple points, multiple 91 00:05:11,120 --> 00:05:14,040 Speaker 3: equations on a single slide. But when you have something 92 00:05:14,120 --> 00:05:18,919 Speaker 3: like PowerPoint, it really breeds this style of trying to 93 00:05:19,000 --> 00:05:21,760 Speaker 3: just load it up with stuff, which makes I think 94 00:05:21,760 --> 00:05:26,880 Speaker 3: the presentations really, you know, really untenable, really unwatchable. And 95 00:05:27,160 --> 00:05:30,000 Speaker 3: it's almost as if like your slides are meant to 96 00:05:30,080 --> 00:05:33,680 Speaker 3: be viewed, like your deck is meant to be something 97 00:05:33,720 --> 00:05:36,120 Speaker 3: to be viewed without you, but that never works, Like 98 00:05:36,520 --> 00:05:39,919 Speaker 3: you should never send your slides ahead or behind or 99 00:05:39,920 --> 00:05:41,840 Speaker 3: something like your slides are not a document, it's not 100 00:05:41,880 --> 00:05:43,839 Speaker 3: a novel. It's not meant to it's not meant to 101 00:05:43,920 --> 00:05:47,240 Speaker 3: exist without you presenting it. You should make a video 102 00:05:47,400 --> 00:05:50,200 Speaker 3: with you presenting the slides together. But if you look 103 00:05:50,200 --> 00:05:52,320 Speaker 3: at it that way, then like, well, how complex and 104 00:05:52,320 --> 00:05:54,720 Speaker 3: intricate to the slides have to be? Well not very 105 00:05:54,760 --> 00:05:56,440 Speaker 3: at all. So I just try to keep it as 106 00:05:56,440 --> 00:05:59,480 Speaker 3: simple as possible. So you know, yes about rules like 107 00:06:00,240 --> 00:06:02,760 Speaker 3: keep thing simple. So the first the first rule of 108 00:06:02,760 --> 00:06:06,560 Speaker 3: simplicity is simple as hard. And the second rule of 109 00:06:06,600 --> 00:06:09,719 Speaker 3: simplicity is there's obviously only one rule of simplicity. You 110 00:06:09,720 --> 00:06:11,200 Speaker 3: clearly haven't understood the first rule. 111 00:06:11,279 --> 00:06:16,440 Speaker 1: Yeah, I like that. I wanted to know, like, what 112 00:06:16,520 --> 00:06:21,120 Speaker 1: are the features that you're using in M and maybe 113 00:06:21,160 --> 00:06:22,920 Speaker 1: if we take a step back from that, I mean, 114 00:06:22,920 --> 00:06:26,120 Speaker 1: I guess I've kind of described how I use but 115 00:06:26,680 --> 00:06:28,960 Speaker 1: how do you describe and what it is? 116 00:06:29,680 --> 00:06:32,159 Speaker 3: Yeah, it's it's a video communication tool. It's really meant 117 00:06:32,160 --> 00:06:35,520 Speaker 3: to give you, you know, video superpowers. I think most people 118 00:06:35,560 --> 00:06:39,000 Speaker 3: start by using it by when they're presenting in on 119 00:06:39,120 --> 00:06:42,119 Speaker 3: Zoom or Google Hangout or Google Meet or Microsoft Teams 120 00:06:42,240 --> 00:06:44,880 Speaker 3: or WebEx or something like that. That's the most common 121 00:06:44,960 --> 00:06:46,520 Speaker 3: use case right now is people just using it to 122 00:06:46,839 --> 00:06:49,520 Speaker 3: present to make their presentation a lot more more interesting, 123 00:06:49,600 --> 00:06:54,320 Speaker 3: more more more expressive, more dynamic. What I and I 124 00:06:54,360 --> 00:06:56,240 Speaker 3: still do that all the time. But what we're doing 125 00:06:56,279 --> 00:06:58,760 Speaker 3: now in our company is actually shifting almost all of 126 00:06:58,760 --> 00:07:01,760 Speaker 3: our communication to a syncre us. So we've gone from 127 00:07:02,000 --> 00:07:05,440 Speaker 3: talking to each other live when we're doing status updates, 128 00:07:05,440 --> 00:07:07,599 Speaker 3: to're just sending recordings around. So we have you know, 129 00:07:08,000 --> 00:07:12,160 Speaker 3: TV where people are just sending recordings of them doing 130 00:07:12,280 --> 00:07:15,440 Speaker 3: presentations and updating each other. And we save the synchronous 131 00:07:15,440 --> 00:07:17,840 Speaker 3: communication for for what you and I are doing right now, 132 00:07:17,880 --> 00:07:19,920 Speaker 3: for actually having a conversation where we you know, we 133 00:07:19,960 --> 00:07:23,480 Speaker 3: take turns talking, not for one person lecturing and the 134 00:07:23,520 --> 00:07:26,040 Speaker 3: other person listening. So more and more it's about it's 135 00:07:26,040 --> 00:07:29,720 Speaker 3: about shifting from synchronous asynchronous communication and kind of smoothly 136 00:07:29,760 --> 00:07:32,000 Speaker 3: going back and forth between those two. 137 00:07:33,280 --> 00:07:33,840 Speaker 2: Interesting. 138 00:07:34,040 --> 00:07:37,880 Speaker 1: I want to know what features your planning on building 139 00:07:38,200 --> 00:07:41,679 Speaker 1: in and what you're most excited about. 140 00:07:42,440 --> 00:07:49,680 Speaker 3: Well, we are. I mean, I'm I'm easily excitable. I'm 141 00:07:49,680 --> 00:07:53,400 Speaker 3: excited about lots lots of stuff. We've got a really 142 00:07:53,440 --> 00:07:57,640 Speaker 3: ambitious roadmap. We announced a lot of the stuff this summer. 143 00:07:57,680 --> 00:08:00,520 Speaker 3: We had this content series called Summer, which is on 144 00:08:00,520 --> 00:08:02,120 Speaker 3: our website. If you go to oom that app and 145 00:08:02,160 --> 00:08:04,360 Speaker 3: click on the events section, you can see a bunch 146 00:08:04,400 --> 00:08:07,200 Speaker 3: of our demos and keynotes and all of that stuff 147 00:08:07,200 --> 00:08:09,680 Speaker 3: that we announced and demo and preview that's all coming out. 148 00:08:09,760 --> 00:08:12,320 Speaker 3: There's a bunch of stuff around what I kind of 149 00:08:12,360 --> 00:08:14,800 Speaker 3: think of as the djaification of the world, where like 150 00:08:14,880 --> 00:08:17,360 Speaker 3: you can kind of be a DJ and smoothly mixed 151 00:08:17,400 --> 00:08:20,320 Speaker 3: between synchronous and asynchronous parts of your of your video, 152 00:08:20,400 --> 00:08:22,760 Speaker 3: so you can started meeting live and then switch to 153 00:08:22,800 --> 00:08:25,120 Speaker 3: something prerecorded and then switch back to live and do that, 154 00:08:25,320 --> 00:08:28,560 Speaker 3: do that kind of smoothly and effortlessly. We're launching versions 155 00:08:28,640 --> 00:08:33,000 Speaker 3: on an iOS, on Windows, We're launching a new version 156 00:08:33,000 --> 00:08:35,800 Speaker 3: for the Mac. We've got, you know, lots of lots 157 00:08:35,800 --> 00:08:38,440 Speaker 3: of product updates coming out. But yeah, just watch watch 158 00:08:38,520 --> 00:08:41,120 Speaker 3: the watch the keynotes from from the summer to get 159 00:08:41,160 --> 00:08:43,720 Speaker 3: a sense of all the stuff that's coming, you know, 160 00:08:43,760 --> 00:08:46,360 Speaker 3: between now and a month or two from now. Now. 161 00:08:46,520 --> 00:08:49,160 Speaker 1: I imagine because of the timing of when you started 162 00:08:49,600 --> 00:08:52,800 Speaker 1: m HM and you've been building lots of features along 163 00:08:52,840 --> 00:08:55,600 Speaker 1: the way that you would have had to rely heavily 164 00:08:55,720 --> 00:08:57,280 Speaker 1: on virtual collaborations. 165 00:08:57,360 --> 00:09:01,880 Speaker 2: So I'm wondering, what's been your approach to doing that. 166 00:09:01,920 --> 00:09:04,640 Speaker 3: Well, Well, I don't know if we've done it well, 167 00:09:04,720 --> 00:09:07,440 Speaker 3: but we've done it. You know, it's actually been great. 168 00:09:08,120 --> 00:09:12,079 Speaker 3: I think when we started in May. We launched May 169 00:09:12,080 --> 00:09:14,000 Speaker 3: twenty seventh of twenty twenty, so we started a couple 170 00:09:14,000 --> 00:09:16,680 Speaker 3: of months after we all went into lockdown, and it 171 00:09:16,760 --> 00:09:18,920 Speaker 3: really started as a joke, like we were just you know, 172 00:09:18,920 --> 00:09:21,400 Speaker 3: we were so bored all the all of the video 173 00:09:21,400 --> 00:09:25,080 Speaker 3: calls are so tedious, and we were just goofing around. 174 00:09:25,120 --> 00:09:26,720 Speaker 3: We're just trying to find something to make us laugh 175 00:09:27,320 --> 00:09:31,920 Speaker 3: while working on other projects. But it kind of snowballed 176 00:09:32,240 --> 00:09:36,000 Speaker 3: from there, and so mm hmm. It was completely created 177 00:09:36,160 --> 00:09:39,240 Speaker 3: in a distributed way. You know, we're up to close 178 00:09:39,280 --> 00:09:42,320 Speaker 3: to one hundred people now working and the vast majority 179 00:09:42,320 --> 00:09:44,120 Speaker 3: of them I've never met each other in person, you know, 180 00:09:44,120 --> 00:09:46,719 Speaker 3: it all hired them during the pandemic. Fully globally, they're 181 00:09:46,720 --> 00:09:49,760 Speaker 3: spread out all over the world and it's great. I 182 00:09:49,760 --> 00:09:51,960 Speaker 3: think the main thing is we don't think of ourselves 183 00:09:52,000 --> 00:09:56,400 Speaker 3: as remote. No one is remote, because remote implies a 184 00:09:56,400 --> 00:09:59,320 Speaker 3: certain disadvantage, Like you're remote, but other people are somewhere, 185 00:09:59,400 --> 00:10:03,360 Speaker 3: you know, together. We're not remote. We're distributed. We're distributed 186 00:10:03,400 --> 00:10:06,319 Speaker 3: by design, kind of like you know, the Internet is 187 00:10:06,360 --> 00:10:09,720 Speaker 3: a distributed system. It's a distributed network, not because the 188 00:10:09,720 --> 00:10:11,520 Speaker 3: people who created the Internet didn't know how to make 189 00:10:11,559 --> 00:10:14,040 Speaker 3: a centralized network, but because like being distributed is kind 190 00:10:14,040 --> 00:10:16,600 Speaker 3: of its whole point. That's the superpower of the Internet, 191 00:10:16,800 --> 00:10:18,600 Speaker 3: and it makes certain things a little bit harder. You know, 192 00:10:18,600 --> 00:10:20,319 Speaker 3: a few things would be easier if the Internet had 193 00:10:20,360 --> 00:10:23,160 Speaker 3: one big central server, but obviously, like noone thinks that 194 00:10:23,160 --> 00:10:25,199 Speaker 3: that's a viable thing, because it has to be distributed 195 00:10:25,240 --> 00:10:28,280 Speaker 3: by design. On so we are we have designed our 196 00:10:28,280 --> 00:10:30,480 Speaker 3: company to be distributed, not because we had to, not 197 00:10:30,559 --> 00:10:32,640 Speaker 3: because like we don't know how to be in an office, 198 00:10:33,720 --> 00:10:37,040 Speaker 3: but because of the massive advantages it gives us. And 199 00:10:37,200 --> 00:10:39,679 Speaker 3: when you think about it like that, we're rather than 200 00:10:39,720 --> 00:10:42,280 Speaker 3: focusing on the on the few things that are harder 201 00:10:42,559 --> 00:10:44,800 Speaker 3: when you're a distributed team, you really focus on the 202 00:10:44,840 --> 00:10:47,320 Speaker 3: many things that are better and that are easier. It 203 00:10:47,360 --> 00:10:50,200 Speaker 3: makes everything, makes everything more fun, it makes everything more productive. 204 00:10:51,120 --> 00:10:54,520 Speaker 1: And so aside from the obvious advantage that you can 205 00:10:54,920 --> 00:10:58,640 Speaker 1: find talent anywhere on the planet, what have been some 206 00:10:58,720 --> 00:11:02,040 Speaker 1: of the other really advantages around being distributed. 207 00:11:02,679 --> 00:11:04,520 Speaker 3: Well, you know, the talent piece is like, let's not 208 00:11:04,600 --> 00:11:07,000 Speaker 3: dismiss that too quickly. I mean, that's that's just that's 209 00:11:07,040 --> 00:11:11,880 Speaker 3: worth it, right, Like, you know, you've talked to CEOs before, 210 00:11:12,000 --> 00:11:14,199 Speaker 3: all right, And I'm sure whenever you talk to a CEO, 211 00:11:14,280 --> 00:11:16,199 Speaker 3: literally one hundred percent of the time. If you ask, hey, 212 00:11:16,200 --> 00:11:19,480 Speaker 3: what's the hardest thing about this company? I guarantee you've 213 00:11:19,520 --> 00:11:21,800 Speaker 3: only ever gotten one answer, because you know, when we 214 00:11:21,840 --> 00:11:24,000 Speaker 3: go to CEO school, they teach us if anyone ever asks, like, 215 00:11:24,000 --> 00:11:25,720 Speaker 3: what's the hardest thing about your companies, only one answer 216 00:11:25,760 --> 00:11:28,360 Speaker 3: we're legally llo to give. We have to say, Oh, 217 00:11:28,400 --> 00:11:30,760 Speaker 3: it's the people, it's the talent, it's hiring and getting 218 00:11:30,800 --> 00:11:32,640 Speaker 3: the best people. Like that's literally the only thing that 219 00:11:32,679 --> 00:11:35,800 Speaker 3: any CEO's ever said in response to that question. And 220 00:11:35,880 --> 00:11:39,200 Speaker 3: it's true for the most part. And so here we 221 00:11:39,240 --> 00:11:41,120 Speaker 3: are we as you know CEOs we say in the past, 222 00:11:41,120 --> 00:11:43,120 Speaker 3: you know, fifty years winding about how the hardest thing 223 00:11:43,160 --> 00:11:45,319 Speaker 3: is people, and the universe has just given us this 224 00:11:45,440 --> 00:11:48,600 Speaker 3: greatest gift, the superpower where every single job in my 225 00:11:48,640 --> 00:11:51,400 Speaker 3: companies is now global. Is now I can hire people 226 00:11:51,480 --> 00:11:53,559 Speaker 3: from everywhere in the world, and then they can stay 227 00:11:53,600 --> 00:11:55,720 Speaker 3: where they are, they could do the job the top 228 00:11:55,760 --> 00:11:59,200 Speaker 3: of my talent. A funnel has just expanded by thousands 229 00:11:59,240 --> 00:12:02,480 Speaker 3: of times. And I'm going to give that up, like, 230 00:12:02,640 --> 00:12:04,280 Speaker 3: of course not, I'm never going to give that up. 231 00:12:04,320 --> 00:12:06,800 Speaker 3: So yeah, the fact that it's a fully, fully globally 232 00:12:06,800 --> 00:12:10,040 Speaker 3: distributed workforce is amazing, But that's just the type of 233 00:12:10,080 --> 00:12:13,240 Speaker 3: the iceberg. Another big, you know benefit is, you know, 234 00:12:13,240 --> 00:12:16,839 Speaker 3: no one wastes any time commuting, Like one hundred percent 235 00:12:16,920 --> 00:12:19,320 Speaker 3: of the people who work at our companies don't spend 236 00:12:19,400 --> 00:12:22,520 Speaker 3: any time commuting. Imagine if, like somehow, magically, that had 237 00:12:22,520 --> 00:12:24,960 Speaker 3: always been the case in our company, like somehow, you know, 238 00:12:25,200 --> 00:12:27,520 Speaker 3: like alternate Earth, you know, Harry Potter style, like people 239 00:12:27,559 --> 00:12:29,839 Speaker 3: who just teleport to work to the office. No one 240 00:12:29,840 --> 00:12:32,120 Speaker 3: ever commuted, And all of a sudden, like I come 241 00:12:32,160 --> 00:12:34,400 Speaker 3: into the office the next day and I say, hey, everyone, Like, 242 00:12:34,440 --> 00:12:37,760 Speaker 3: everyone gather around. I've got a CEO idea. I'm going 243 00:12:37,840 --> 00:12:40,200 Speaker 3: to need each of you to spend to waste two 244 00:12:40,200 --> 00:12:43,200 Speaker 3: hours a day sitting in traffic. Yes, it's not very 245 00:12:43,240 --> 00:12:45,720 Speaker 3: productive and you can't work, and yes you're not spending 246 00:12:45,720 --> 00:12:47,400 Speaker 3: the time with your friends and family, and yes you 247 00:12:47,400 --> 00:12:49,480 Speaker 3: can go like to a good restaurant or listen to music, 248 00:12:49,760 --> 00:12:51,760 Speaker 3: and yes it's very unhealthy and very stressful, and oh 249 00:12:51,800 --> 00:12:54,559 Speaker 3: my god, it's terrible for the environment. But two hours 250 00:12:54,600 --> 00:12:57,720 Speaker 3: a day every single person wastes sitting in traffic go right, 251 00:12:57,800 --> 00:13:00,640 Speaker 3: Like the board would be like, see yo has gone crazy. 252 00:13:00,679 --> 00:13:03,760 Speaker 3: You would fire me immediately. But you know, that's kind 253 00:13:03,840 --> 00:13:05,439 Speaker 3: of what we're asking people to do if we want 254 00:13:05,440 --> 00:13:08,280 Speaker 3: them to quote unquote go back to the office. And 255 00:13:08,320 --> 00:13:10,720 Speaker 3: then you know the fact that that one hundred percent 256 00:13:10,720 --> 00:13:12,839 Speaker 3: of our employees can choose where they want to live. 257 00:13:12,880 --> 00:13:15,320 Speaker 3: They can they can live in a nice house if 258 00:13:15,320 --> 00:13:17,240 Speaker 3: that's what they want. They can send their kids to 259 00:13:17,280 --> 00:13:19,400 Speaker 3: a good school. They can live in a city, they 260 00:13:19,400 --> 00:13:21,760 Speaker 3: can live in a small town. If someone's always wanted 261 00:13:21,800 --> 00:13:23,360 Speaker 3: to live on the beach and surf, they can do 262 00:13:23,440 --> 00:13:26,880 Speaker 3: that today and still have their job. And then, like 263 00:13:26,960 --> 00:13:29,520 Speaker 3: for the first time ever, every single person who works 264 00:13:29,559 --> 00:13:32,120 Speaker 3: in our companies, who works in a distributed company, can 265 00:13:32,200 --> 00:13:36,160 Speaker 3: choose where they live to have their best life independently 266 00:13:36,160 --> 00:13:38,000 Speaker 3: from where they work to have their best job. I 267 00:13:38,000 --> 00:13:39,680 Speaker 3: mean that that's amazing. We're never giving that up. And 268 00:13:39,679 --> 00:13:41,880 Speaker 3: there's like, there's like twenty other superpowers that are kind 269 00:13:41,880 --> 00:13:45,160 Speaker 3: of like of this level of caliber, and when you 270 00:13:45,200 --> 00:13:47,719 Speaker 3: think about them, you're like, well, yeah, I'm not I'm 271 00:13:47,760 --> 00:13:49,960 Speaker 3: never giving these up. So sure it's worth solving some 272 00:13:50,040 --> 00:13:52,800 Speaker 3: problems to keep these, but I'm definitely keeping them. 273 00:13:53,040 --> 00:13:56,200 Speaker 1: And so when it comes to collaborating with people that 274 00:13:56,280 --> 00:13:59,240 Speaker 1: you've potentially never met face to face, like is there 275 00:13:59,760 --> 00:14:03,320 Speaker 1: is there are almost like a template or a system 276 00:14:03,360 --> 00:14:05,080 Speaker 1: that you use, Like when do you know when to 277 00:14:05,120 --> 00:14:06,960 Speaker 1: be asynchronous versus synchronous? 278 00:14:06,960 --> 00:14:07,640 Speaker 2: For example? 279 00:14:08,480 --> 00:14:11,600 Speaker 3: Yeah, I'm constantly surprised by how tall or not tall 280 00:14:11,640 --> 00:14:14,320 Speaker 3: people are when I first meet them in person. I 281 00:14:14,440 --> 00:14:17,360 Speaker 3: realize that I never get that right, Like my mental 282 00:14:17,360 --> 00:14:20,440 Speaker 3: image is always off. When I like know someone for 283 00:14:20,440 --> 00:14:22,680 Speaker 3: a few months, you know, but only online that I 284 00:14:22,760 --> 00:14:24,720 Speaker 3: see him in person for the first time, I always like, wow, yeah, 285 00:14:24,760 --> 00:14:28,760 Speaker 3: I was wrong about that. Yeah, I have you know, 286 00:14:28,760 --> 00:14:31,160 Speaker 3: for synchronous and asynchronous is a really important thing that 287 00:14:31,200 --> 00:14:33,400 Speaker 3: we're trying to get better at. I have a test 288 00:14:33,440 --> 00:14:36,440 Speaker 3: for this. I call it the facehle test. It goes 289 00:14:36,480 --> 00:14:39,640 Speaker 3: like this. When there's a bunch of people and they're 290 00:14:39,640 --> 00:14:42,920 Speaker 3: having a conversation and one person is moving their face 291 00:14:42,920 --> 00:14:45,800 Speaker 3: hole a lot, like for minutes at a time, and 292 00:14:45,800 --> 00:14:48,880 Speaker 3: no one else is moving theirs. Then something's gone wrong 293 00:14:49,120 --> 00:14:51,360 Speaker 3: that that's not a conversation, that's a lecture and it 294 00:14:51,360 --> 00:14:53,960 Speaker 3: shouldn't be happening synchronously. If I am doing all the 295 00:14:54,000 --> 00:14:57,000 Speaker 3: talking and other people are listening, they shouldn't be doing 296 00:14:57,000 --> 00:14:58,800 Speaker 3: this in real time. I should have recorded it they 297 00:14:58,800 --> 00:15:00,360 Speaker 3: can watch it when they want to watch. They can 298 00:15:00,400 --> 00:15:02,360 Speaker 3: watch it at you know, one point seven x speed. 299 00:15:02,920 --> 00:15:05,040 Speaker 3: They can jump around, they don't have to take notes. 300 00:15:05,080 --> 00:15:07,880 Speaker 3: Like it's just any kind of information transfer where it's 301 00:15:08,040 --> 00:15:12,800 Speaker 3: primarily one person speaking for multiple minutes shouldn't be synchronous. 302 00:15:12,960 --> 00:15:16,640 Speaker 3: Should be it should be asynchronous. Synchronous communication should be 303 00:15:16,680 --> 00:15:18,440 Speaker 3: what we're doing here, which we're having a conversation. You know, 304 00:15:18,480 --> 00:15:20,120 Speaker 3: I move my face hole for a few minutes and 305 00:15:20,120 --> 00:15:22,120 Speaker 3: then you go and it's like back and forth, and 306 00:15:21,920 --> 00:15:25,080 Speaker 3: then okay, then that should be synchronous. But so much 307 00:15:25,120 --> 00:15:28,240 Speaker 3: of what we used to do at work was we 308 00:15:28,240 --> 00:15:31,400 Speaker 3: were having synchronous communications in a way where it really 309 00:15:31,480 --> 00:15:33,360 Speaker 3: was just knowledge transfer as one person at a time, 310 00:15:33,400 --> 00:15:35,160 Speaker 3: and we just don't do that anymore. And it's amazing. 311 00:15:35,560 --> 00:15:39,920 Speaker 1: That does sound amazing now, I know that you like, well, 312 00:15:39,920 --> 00:15:42,600 Speaker 1: while a lot of people that work in a distributed fashion, 313 00:15:42,680 --> 00:15:44,920 Speaker 1: they do work from home a lot of the time, 314 00:15:45,000 --> 00:15:48,000 Speaker 1: but I've heard that you maybe work from home perhaps 315 00:15:48,120 --> 00:15:50,640 Speaker 1: thirty percent of the time. So I want to know 316 00:15:50,720 --> 00:15:52,560 Speaker 1: where else are you're working from. 317 00:15:53,240 --> 00:15:55,120 Speaker 3: Yeah, I think this is a This is another big 318 00:15:55,200 --> 00:15:57,840 Speaker 3: kind of misunderstanding. People think that distributed work means working 319 00:15:57,840 --> 00:16:00,880 Speaker 3: from home. It doesn't. It meant working from home when 320 00:16:00,880 --> 00:16:02,640 Speaker 3: we were all forced to do it, you know, with 321 00:16:02,720 --> 00:16:06,120 Speaker 3: no preparation because of COVID. You know, we've had to 322 00:16:06,120 --> 00:16:08,560 Speaker 3: work out of our apartments and homes with screaming children 323 00:16:08,600 --> 00:16:10,680 Speaker 3: in an environment that wasn't set up for it. But 324 00:16:11,040 --> 00:16:13,280 Speaker 3: distributed work means you can you can figure out where 325 00:16:13,280 --> 00:16:15,640 Speaker 3: your environments are and you can pick you can pick 326 00:16:15,680 --> 00:16:19,040 Speaker 3: the work environment to best accomplish whatever you're trying to accomplish. 327 00:16:19,040 --> 00:16:20,600 Speaker 3: So I've got I've got a few different places, so 328 00:16:20,680 --> 00:16:22,960 Speaker 3: I work from home some of the time. You know, 329 00:16:23,040 --> 00:16:24,720 Speaker 3: about a third of the time. I have a nice, 330 00:16:24,760 --> 00:16:27,240 Speaker 3: like av setup. So if I'm like, like, for example, 331 00:16:27,280 --> 00:16:28,960 Speaker 3: now I want to be on a good microphone, I've 332 00:16:28,960 --> 00:16:30,600 Speaker 3: got a good setup at home, so I'll do that 333 00:16:30,600 --> 00:16:34,560 Speaker 3: for my home studio. But sometimes I work from a museum. 334 00:16:34,640 --> 00:16:37,840 Speaker 3: There's two amazing museums within walking distance of media that 335 00:16:37,840 --> 00:16:40,200 Speaker 3: at a ten minute walk. I live in Bentonville, Arkansas, 336 00:16:40,840 --> 00:16:44,320 Speaker 3: and there's a museum called Crystal Bridges, which is just breathtaking. 337 00:16:44,360 --> 00:16:46,320 Speaker 3: It It's like my fear museum I've ever been to. 338 00:16:47,000 --> 00:16:48,800 Speaker 3: And you know, I can walk there in ten minutes. 339 00:16:48,800 --> 00:16:50,960 Speaker 3: And I can walk around the grounds outside and inside, 340 00:16:50,960 --> 00:16:53,320 Speaker 3: and it's amazing. Like whenever I need to puzzle puzzle 341 00:16:53,360 --> 00:16:55,960 Speaker 3: through something, I go and I do it in the museum. 342 00:16:55,960 --> 00:16:57,880 Speaker 3: Sometimes I go to the library and sit down there 343 00:16:58,320 --> 00:17:00,320 Speaker 3: if I just want a breathtaking view with a lot 344 00:17:00,360 --> 00:17:02,640 Speaker 3: of art. Sometimes I pace around. Sometimes when I have 345 00:17:02,640 --> 00:17:05,960 Speaker 3: co workers over, we go for a walk together, and 346 00:17:06,720 --> 00:17:09,360 Speaker 3: it's an amazing environment for being creative, much better than 347 00:17:09,400 --> 00:17:12,280 Speaker 3: like sitting in a conference room. And sometimes I work 348 00:17:12,320 --> 00:17:14,639 Speaker 3: from There's a club that I joined, which was a 349 00:17:14,640 --> 00:17:17,479 Speaker 3: really nice pool and a gym, and so I'll go 350 00:17:17,600 --> 00:17:19,639 Speaker 3: work at the club, and if I feel like being 351 00:17:19,680 --> 00:17:23,159 Speaker 3: around other people who aren't my employees, just other you know, 352 00:17:23,200 --> 00:17:26,919 Speaker 3: professional adults, sometimes that's useful. And then I can do 353 00:17:27,119 --> 00:17:28,520 Speaker 3: like a couple of zoom calls in the club and 354 00:17:28,520 --> 00:17:30,120 Speaker 3: then go go swim a few laps in the pool, 355 00:17:30,240 --> 00:17:31,720 Speaker 3: and then, you know, a half hour later, be back 356 00:17:31,760 --> 00:17:33,960 Speaker 3: on a zoom call because there's nice showers and things there. 357 00:17:34,600 --> 00:17:36,240 Speaker 3: And it turns out that like swimming laps in a 358 00:17:36,280 --> 00:17:38,520 Speaker 3: nice pool is like the exact opposite of being in 359 00:17:38,520 --> 00:17:41,199 Speaker 3: a zoom call, Like every sensation is the opposite of 360 00:17:41,240 --> 00:17:43,720 Speaker 3: it is like the ultimate recharge, and I would never 361 00:17:43,800 --> 00:17:46,399 Speaker 3: do this before. I could never before, like go for 362 00:17:46,480 --> 00:17:48,399 Speaker 3: a swim in the middle of the day, because what 363 00:17:48,480 --> 00:17:50,800 Speaker 3: I'd have to like drive to the gym and like 364 00:17:50,840 --> 00:17:52,640 Speaker 3: they just wouldn't happen. But now I can work from there. 365 00:17:54,000 --> 00:17:57,560 Speaker 3: So this idea of like being able to choose where 366 00:17:57,600 --> 00:17:59,720 Speaker 3: I want to be that I think is best for 367 00:17:59,760 --> 00:18:01,560 Speaker 3: a commish whatever I want to accomplish over a few 368 00:18:01,560 --> 00:18:03,720 Speaker 3: hours is kind of amazing. I'm never giving that up. 369 00:18:04,280 --> 00:18:05,800 Speaker 3: And all of this is walking distance, so it's not 370 00:18:05,800 --> 00:18:08,160 Speaker 3: so much walk work from home. It's really it's really 371 00:18:08,200 --> 00:18:10,119 Speaker 3: walked to work, Like I just walk around everywhere for 372 00:18:10,200 --> 00:18:14,919 Speaker 3: these places, and one hundred percent of my current lifestyle 373 00:18:15,640 --> 00:18:18,800 Speaker 3: is accessible to everyone in our companies. Like it's not 374 00:18:19,119 --> 00:18:21,760 Speaker 3: because I have more money. It would have been the 375 00:18:21,800 --> 00:18:23,800 Speaker 3: case if I had if I had this lifestyle in 376 00:18:23,800 --> 00:18:25,800 Speaker 3: San Francisco. But you know, when I used to live 377 00:18:25,840 --> 00:18:28,040 Speaker 3: in San Francisco, my quality of living was much lower 378 00:18:28,040 --> 00:18:30,520 Speaker 3: than it is now. But to the extent that it 379 00:18:30,560 --> 00:18:32,120 Speaker 3: was okay, it was because I was spending a lot 380 00:18:32,119 --> 00:18:34,720 Speaker 3: of money. But now, like I think all of our 381 00:18:34,760 --> 00:18:36,760 Speaker 3: employees can literally afford to live in the house that 382 00:18:36,760 --> 00:18:38,720 Speaker 3: I'm currently living in and can afford to like be 383 00:18:38,760 --> 00:18:40,360 Speaker 3: a member of this club and go to the same 384 00:18:40,400 --> 00:18:42,760 Speaker 3: museums because it's all, you know, either free or inexpensive, 385 00:18:42,800 --> 00:18:45,520 Speaker 3: because most of the world is when you're not forced 386 00:18:45,560 --> 00:18:48,880 Speaker 3: to congregate in the same exact place as everybody else. 387 00:18:49,880 --> 00:18:53,120 Speaker 1: I love the idea of walking around amuseum when you're 388 00:18:53,160 --> 00:18:57,359 Speaker 1: trying to puzzle through something. And something that always fascinates 389 00:18:57,400 --> 00:19:00,960 Speaker 1: me about found the CEOs is that I always imagine 390 00:19:01,000 --> 00:19:04,400 Speaker 1: this person who's a maker at heart that has had 391 00:19:04,480 --> 00:19:07,239 Speaker 1: to find a way to also be a manager in 392 00:19:07,320 --> 00:19:10,520 Speaker 1: terms of thinking about their diary or their calendar. And 393 00:19:11,119 --> 00:19:13,080 Speaker 1: I'd love to know for you, how do you think 394 00:19:13,080 --> 00:19:18,679 Speaker 1: about segmenting your calendar between maker versus manager activities that 395 00:19:18,720 --> 00:19:19,200 Speaker 1: you're doing. 396 00:19:20,119 --> 00:19:24,440 Speaker 3: So one thing I've done is I have canceled almost 397 00:19:24,480 --> 00:19:27,960 Speaker 3: all of our like I said, synchronous update meetings, which 398 00:19:28,000 --> 00:19:30,880 Speaker 3: frees up many, many hours a day for me. So 399 00:19:31,000 --> 00:19:32,800 Speaker 3: I used to when I used to look at my calendar, 400 00:19:33,600 --> 00:19:35,800 Speaker 3: what was I spending time on while I was I 401 00:19:35,840 --> 00:19:40,080 Speaker 3: was having fourteen fifteen synchronous meetings a day, and you know, 402 00:19:40,480 --> 00:19:42,639 Speaker 3: fully half of those were just like one on ones, 403 00:19:42,640 --> 00:19:44,920 Speaker 3: you know, catch up meetings, standing meetings with various people. 404 00:19:45,000 --> 00:19:49,520 Speaker 3: Get rid of one hundred percent of those. Now, when 405 00:19:49,600 --> 00:19:53,760 Speaker 3: I need to exchange information, we exchange recordings asynchronously. That 406 00:19:53,840 --> 00:19:56,639 Speaker 3: lets me lets everyone watch them anytime. I don't have 407 00:19:56,680 --> 00:19:59,080 Speaker 3: to do it at a particular time, and much faster 408 00:19:59,520 --> 00:20:03,120 Speaker 3: because turns out everyone sounds better and it's actually more 409 00:20:03,119 --> 00:20:05,120 Speaker 3: fun to watch at like one point five to two 410 00:20:05,160 --> 00:20:08,120 Speaker 3: point zero speed rather than one x like literally, it's 411 00:20:08,119 --> 00:20:10,400 Speaker 3: just it's just true. So why would you Why would 412 00:20:10,400 --> 00:20:12,440 Speaker 3: I want to watch someone updating me at the same 413 00:20:12,480 --> 00:20:14,919 Speaker 3: time they're speaking. Imagine if like when you're reading, imagine 414 00:20:15,000 --> 00:20:18,280 Speaker 3: you're reading something, then you were forced to read at 415 00:20:18,280 --> 00:20:21,040 Speaker 3: the same speed that the person who wrote it wrote. 416 00:20:21,440 --> 00:20:24,239 Speaker 3: That don't make any sense. So we said I got 417 00:20:24,320 --> 00:20:26,159 Speaker 3: rid of most of my synchronous stuff. That freed up 418 00:20:26,200 --> 00:20:30,760 Speaker 3: probably two hours a day when I need to have 419 00:20:30,760 --> 00:20:33,119 Speaker 3: a synchronous conversation, I of course, you know, jump on 420 00:20:33,119 --> 00:20:34,879 Speaker 3: a call, we have a synchronous conversation, but by then 421 00:20:34,920 --> 00:20:36,560 Speaker 3: we're all in the same page that we're really having 422 00:20:36,560 --> 00:20:38,880 Speaker 3: a live discussion, so it's much better and much briefer. 423 00:20:39,440 --> 00:20:41,359 Speaker 3: And then I don't waste any time commuting, So that's 424 00:20:41,359 --> 00:20:45,000 Speaker 3: another like two hours a day, So you know, just 425 00:20:45,640 --> 00:20:49,560 Speaker 3: pure calendar time. I've got four or five hours extra 426 00:20:49,920 --> 00:20:52,280 Speaker 3: free time every single day than I used to be four, 427 00:20:53,800 --> 00:20:55,520 Speaker 3: which is kind of amazing. And I use that to 428 00:20:55,960 --> 00:20:57,240 Speaker 3: you know, to be to be productive. 429 00:20:58,160 --> 00:21:01,360 Speaker 1: Wow, that's amazing when you describe it like that. Now, 430 00:21:01,480 --> 00:21:04,639 Speaker 1: I want to talk about ever note because I feel 431 00:21:04,680 --> 00:21:08,480 Speaker 1: really privileged to be talking to one of the people. 432 00:21:08,160 --> 00:21:09,560 Speaker 2: That actually created it. 433 00:21:09,680 --> 00:21:12,320 Speaker 1: And I'm sitting here in front of my iMac and 434 00:21:12,920 --> 00:21:16,240 Speaker 1: the only software applications that I've got open are Chrome 435 00:21:16,440 --> 00:21:19,280 Speaker 1: because that's how I'm using Zancaster to record this interview. 436 00:21:20,240 --> 00:21:21,720 Speaker 2: I've got Scrivener opened. 437 00:21:21,640 --> 00:21:25,480 Speaker 1: Because I'm on a deadline for a manuscript that's due 438 00:21:25,480 --> 00:21:26,680 Speaker 1: in under four weeks and. 439 00:21:26,640 --> 00:21:29,119 Speaker 3: I've strong strong choice scriven or strong choice. 440 00:21:29,240 --> 00:21:31,280 Speaker 1: Oh it's good, it's good. I just can't work out 441 00:21:31,280 --> 00:21:34,320 Speaker 1: how to do the bloody reference list anyway, my problem 442 00:21:34,440 --> 00:21:37,840 Speaker 1: not yours. And ever note is the other thing that's open. 443 00:21:37,880 --> 00:21:41,240 Speaker 1: And I've used Evernote for years and years and years. 444 00:21:41,280 --> 00:21:44,920 Speaker 1: I can't remember a life where I didn't use ever note. 445 00:21:44,920 --> 00:21:48,000 Speaker 1: And I want to know, Phil, how are you using Evernote? 446 00:21:48,040 --> 00:21:49,880 Speaker 1: What can you teach me about? How can I use 447 00:21:49,920 --> 00:21:50,680 Speaker 1: Evernote better? 448 00:21:51,200 --> 00:21:53,080 Speaker 3: So yeah, I use it. I mean, he's it every day. Obviously, 449 00:21:54,160 --> 00:21:58,480 Speaker 3: it's great. I have become I think as I've gotten older, 450 00:21:58,600 --> 00:22:01,320 Speaker 3: I've become more selective about what kinds of things I 451 00:22:01,359 --> 00:22:03,760 Speaker 3: put in there. So I used to put absolutely everything 452 00:22:03,760 --> 00:22:06,200 Speaker 3: in there because I like it gave me this feeling 453 00:22:06,200 --> 00:22:10,119 Speaker 3: of security that I wasn't forgetting anything. And then I 454 00:22:10,119 --> 00:22:12,840 Speaker 3: think as I've gotten older, I've like gotten to appreciate 455 00:22:12,880 --> 00:22:15,719 Speaker 3: the feeling of security that I get from being okay 456 00:22:15,880 --> 00:22:18,160 Speaker 3: and about forgetting things. Like so I just know there's 457 00:22:18,200 --> 00:22:19,639 Speaker 3: likes of stuff I'm just not going to retain. I'm 458 00:22:19,680 --> 00:22:22,000 Speaker 3: like that, that's cool. You know, I'll learn it again. 459 00:22:22,040 --> 00:22:25,159 Speaker 3: I'll be happy. So I'm more intentional now, like I 460 00:22:25,200 --> 00:22:26,960 Speaker 3: put things in every note that I tend to like 461 00:22:27,119 --> 00:22:29,280 Speaker 3: have a higher confidence level that I'm going to need again, 462 00:22:29,760 --> 00:22:30,959 Speaker 3: that I'm going to want to you know, that I'm 463 00:22:30,960 --> 00:22:33,159 Speaker 3: going to want to use. Whereas it used to be, 464 00:22:33,440 --> 00:22:36,840 Speaker 3: you know, probably like I would probably look at two 465 00:22:36,920 --> 00:22:38,920 Speaker 3: percent of the things that I wound up putting in Evernoe, 466 00:22:39,680 --> 00:22:42,639 Speaker 3: and now I probably look at fifty to eighty percent 467 00:22:42,640 --> 00:22:43,879 Speaker 3: of the things that I wound up putting in there. 468 00:22:43,880 --> 00:22:46,360 Speaker 3: So that's but that's that's more about like my lifestyle, 469 00:22:46,400 --> 00:22:49,280 Speaker 3: like I just like care less about remembering you know, 470 00:22:49,400 --> 00:22:52,439 Speaker 3: every single scrap of information and more about using it 471 00:22:52,480 --> 00:22:57,360 Speaker 3: for or for organizing my thoughts, for organizing projects. And yeah, 472 00:22:57,400 --> 00:22:58,879 Speaker 3: I use it all the time, you know when when 473 00:22:58,960 --> 00:23:00,600 Speaker 3: when I was and I haven't been that ever note 474 00:23:00,640 --> 00:23:04,960 Speaker 3: for six seven years, so I can't take credit for 475 00:23:04,960 --> 00:23:07,840 Speaker 3: for most of the new stuff. One of the things 476 00:23:07,840 --> 00:23:12,320 Speaker 3: that we found when I was still there, which really 477 00:23:12,320 --> 00:23:14,040 Speaker 3: explained a lot to me when we realized this from 478 00:23:14,040 --> 00:23:18,840 Speaker 3: our research, was people who used Evernote for something that 479 00:23:18,880 --> 00:23:23,760 Speaker 3: they loved, that they cared passionately about were much much, 480 00:23:23,880 --> 00:23:27,000 Speaker 3: much much like more valuable power users than people who 481 00:23:27,080 --> 00:23:29,560 Speaker 3: used it for things that they don't quite care about, 482 00:23:29,600 --> 00:23:31,640 Speaker 3: like people who were like using every note at work 483 00:23:31,680 --> 00:23:33,520 Speaker 3: because like their company like forced them to use it 484 00:23:33,600 --> 00:23:35,600 Speaker 3: or something they didn't really care about the stuff they 485 00:23:35,600 --> 00:23:39,320 Speaker 3: were putting in there. As totally makes sense in hindsight, 486 00:23:39,359 --> 00:23:42,879 Speaker 3: but those were kind of you know, lacksadaisical users, whereas 487 00:23:43,000 --> 00:23:45,359 Speaker 3: people who were using it for their like life's work, 488 00:23:45,920 --> 00:23:47,800 Speaker 3: for the things that are most important to them were 489 00:23:47,840 --> 00:23:51,760 Speaker 3: like really power users were really in love with it. 490 00:23:51,920 --> 00:23:55,160 Speaker 3: And you know, we figured we had lots of data 491 00:23:55,200 --> 00:23:56,679 Speaker 3: to kind of back this up. But the thing that 492 00:23:56,720 --> 00:23:58,200 Speaker 3: made it really clear to me is I was talking 493 00:23:58,240 --> 00:24:00,360 Speaker 3: to a pretty good friend of mine, you know, I've 494 00:24:00,440 --> 00:24:02,359 Speaker 3: known for many years already I'd ever note, and he 495 00:24:02,440 --> 00:24:05,040 Speaker 3: said one to me one day a you know, like 496 00:24:05,119 --> 00:24:07,720 Speaker 3: i'd been using every note for like three or four 497 00:24:07,800 --> 00:24:10,400 Speaker 3: years now, because you know, you started it. And I figured, yeah, 498 00:24:10,440 --> 00:24:11,680 Speaker 3: I'll tried it out. And I used it a bunch 499 00:24:11,680 --> 00:24:13,199 Speaker 3: and use it at work. And I remember, like I 500 00:24:13,240 --> 00:24:14,760 Speaker 3: was never that into it, Like it was fine, but 501 00:24:14,840 --> 00:24:17,399 Speaker 3: it was never like that into it. And then I 502 00:24:17,480 --> 00:24:20,280 Speaker 3: like decided that I was going to write a book, 503 00:24:20,800 --> 00:24:23,000 Speaker 3: and I started using it to like collect ideas for 504 00:24:23,040 --> 00:24:26,199 Speaker 3: the book. And then I like understood how amazing it 505 00:24:26,280 --> 00:24:28,240 Speaker 3: was because I was finally using it for like the 506 00:24:28,280 --> 00:24:30,280 Speaker 3: most important thing in the world, tree and I couldn't 507 00:24:30,320 --> 00:24:31,960 Speaker 3: I couldn't put it down. And I thought it was 508 00:24:32,000 --> 00:24:34,440 Speaker 3: like a really beautiful thing. But like make a product 509 00:24:34,480 --> 00:24:36,800 Speaker 3: that if you use it for something you really care about, 510 00:24:36,920 --> 00:24:40,159 Speaker 3: it's amazing. And may we've been trying to recapture some 511 00:24:40,200 --> 00:24:40,600 Speaker 3: of that and. 512 00:24:45,280 --> 00:24:48,640 Speaker 1: Hello, we will be back with Phil shortly where he'll 513 00:24:48,680 --> 00:24:51,119 Speaker 1: be talking about the rule of three and ten for 514 00:24:51,240 --> 00:24:54,879 Speaker 1: business and how this was life changing. And we'll also 515 00:24:54,920 --> 00:24:58,680 Speaker 1: hear from Phil about the difference between difficult versus unpleasant 516 00:24:58,680 --> 00:25:02,680 Speaker 1: decisions and why it's critical that you make that distinction. Now, 517 00:25:02,720 --> 00:25:05,480 Speaker 1: if you are after more content, you might want to 518 00:25:05,480 --> 00:25:09,240 Speaker 1: follow me on the socials, where I produced quite a 519 00:25:09,280 --> 00:25:11,960 Speaker 1: lot of content. The two best places to follow me 520 00:25:12,080 --> 00:25:15,879 Speaker 1: are on LinkedIn. Just search for my name Amantha INMBA. 521 00:25:16,119 --> 00:25:18,879 Speaker 1: I think I'm the only one on there, and also 522 00:25:19,040 --> 00:25:22,120 Speaker 1: on Instagram, which I'm starting to post a lot more 523 00:25:22,160 --> 00:25:25,840 Speaker 1: content too, and you can find me on Insta at Amantha. 524 00:25:26,000 --> 00:25:32,280 Speaker 1: I something I have never really used religiously in ever, 525 00:25:32,359 --> 00:25:37,040 Speaker 1: note firstly having different notebooks, like everything sits in my inbox, 526 00:25:37,240 --> 00:25:42,119 Speaker 1: and I haven't relied too heavily on tags, and like, 527 00:25:42,560 --> 00:25:44,280 Speaker 1: am I missing something really major? 528 00:25:44,320 --> 00:25:46,800 Speaker 2: There? Should I be changing how I use Evernote? 529 00:25:48,640 --> 00:25:52,040 Speaker 3: Well, you know I'm similar, So I have notebooks, but 530 00:25:52,280 --> 00:25:55,560 Speaker 3: you know, I probably have like fifty notebooks, but realistically 531 00:25:55,600 --> 00:25:58,600 Speaker 3: I only use like four or five regular basis and 532 00:25:58,760 --> 00:26:01,800 Speaker 3: I barely ever use tag. I mostly just search for things, 533 00:26:02,480 --> 00:26:07,080 Speaker 3: and it worked great for me because usually, like I 534 00:26:07,080 --> 00:26:08,640 Speaker 3: can just type in a few letters and I can 535 00:26:08,680 --> 00:26:10,639 Speaker 3: find whatever I'm looking for. I'm gonna find, you know, 536 00:26:10,720 --> 00:26:13,320 Speaker 3: I'll get it down to like ten and then when 537 00:26:13,359 --> 00:26:15,440 Speaker 3: there's like ten notes, I just like the last mile 538 00:26:15,480 --> 00:26:17,440 Speaker 3: of the search, I just see the one I want, right, 539 00:26:17,480 --> 00:26:18,760 Speaker 3: so I can just like click on this. I don't 540 00:26:18,760 --> 00:26:21,240 Speaker 3: have to get it like exactly right. So I don't 541 00:26:21,320 --> 00:26:23,840 Speaker 3: use most of that stuff either, but there's a lot 542 00:26:23,880 --> 00:26:26,639 Speaker 3: of people who religiously use it. What we found is 543 00:26:26,640 --> 00:26:29,879 Speaker 3: that there's a group of people who I think are 544 00:26:29,960 --> 00:26:34,920 Speaker 3: like organizational fetishists, Like they enjoy they derive pleasure from 545 00:26:34,920 --> 00:26:38,359 Speaker 3: the act of organizing something. They like putting labels on 546 00:26:38,400 --> 00:26:40,760 Speaker 3: things and putting things into little cupboards and stacking things 547 00:26:40,840 --> 00:26:44,800 Speaker 3: up cleanly. There's people like this, I get it. That's cool. 548 00:26:45,080 --> 00:26:48,200 Speaker 3: They're into the organization for the sake of the organization. 549 00:26:48,280 --> 00:26:51,640 Speaker 3: They enjoy it. And that's probably I don't know, five 550 00:26:51,640 --> 00:26:54,919 Speaker 3: percent of the population. And they and these people have 551 00:26:55,119 --> 00:26:58,240 Speaker 3: like all sorts of you know, cultish things. There's like 552 00:26:58,280 --> 00:27:00,439 Speaker 3: getting things done people, and there's all sort of like 553 00:27:00,600 --> 00:27:03,600 Speaker 3: different warring camps about how to properly organized things and 554 00:27:03,640 --> 00:27:07,960 Speaker 3: what taxonomies they want. And I'm not like that. I 555 00:27:08,000 --> 00:27:10,199 Speaker 3: don't enjoy the act of organizing. I just want to 556 00:27:10,200 --> 00:27:12,080 Speaker 3: have the benefits of it without actually doing the work. 557 00:27:12,680 --> 00:27:14,880 Speaker 3: It's not actually clear to me that like, well organized 558 00:27:14,880 --> 00:27:18,119 Speaker 3: people are inherently more productive than disorganized people. I am 559 00:27:18,160 --> 00:27:21,480 Speaker 3: fundamentally disorganized them in normal life, but I'm pretty productive. 560 00:27:21,880 --> 00:27:23,359 Speaker 3: But that's I guess one of the reasons why we 561 00:27:23,359 --> 00:27:26,320 Speaker 3: were so interested in ever note is like I wanted 562 00:27:26,320 --> 00:27:30,320 Speaker 3: to have the benefit of having this organizational fetish without 563 00:27:30,359 --> 00:27:33,160 Speaker 3: actually liking organizing things. So yeah, I just throw everything 564 00:27:33,200 --> 00:27:34,840 Speaker 3: in there and it, you know, and it kind of 565 00:27:34,880 --> 00:27:37,520 Speaker 3: works out. But there's a there's a very hardcore user 566 00:27:37,560 --> 00:27:40,639 Speaker 3: base that loves, you know, nest the tags and multiple 567 00:27:40,640 --> 00:27:43,920 Speaker 3: notebooks and flags of different colors, and we were constantly 568 00:27:43,920 --> 00:27:48,960 Speaker 3: getting bombarded with requests for additional taxonomies, additional ways of 569 00:27:49,040 --> 00:27:51,919 Speaker 3: organizing for people who are into the organizing. 570 00:27:53,280 --> 00:27:56,040 Speaker 1: Now, given you describe yourself as being more on the 571 00:27:56,080 --> 00:28:01,480 Speaker 1: disorganized side of things, how do you organize your task 572 00:28:01,560 --> 00:28:04,919 Speaker 1: list and just what your priorities are on a daily, weekly, 573 00:28:05,119 --> 00:28:07,480 Speaker 1: monthly basis, So. 574 00:28:07,680 --> 00:28:10,199 Speaker 3: You know, I've never actually succeeded in keeping a to 575 00:28:10,200 --> 00:28:13,800 Speaker 3: do list, a task list. I don't have one, like 576 00:28:13,840 --> 00:28:15,639 Speaker 3: I've obviously tried all of them. We have them. A 577 00:28:15,720 --> 00:28:18,600 Speaker 3: ever note, I just don't use one. I was actually 578 00:28:18,600 --> 00:28:20,320 Speaker 3: going to start at one point, I was going to 579 00:28:20,320 --> 00:28:24,000 Speaker 3: start a company. Most of my company ideas are jokes. 580 00:28:27,720 --> 00:28:29,840 Speaker 3: So if someone actually wants to build this, by all means, 581 00:28:29,880 --> 00:28:32,280 Speaker 3: please build it. I'll be a customer. I wanted to 582 00:28:32,280 --> 00:28:36,840 Speaker 3: start a task manager to do you know list that 583 00:28:37,040 --> 00:28:40,400 Speaker 3: was called too done or two did, And the way 584 00:28:40,440 --> 00:28:42,880 Speaker 3: it would work is there'd be no input. So I 585 00:28:42,920 --> 00:28:46,400 Speaker 3: would start this program, this app, and it would figure 586 00:28:46,440 --> 00:28:48,560 Speaker 3: out what I did just by looking at like my 587 00:28:48,760 --> 00:28:52,400 Speaker 3: calendar where I've been, and it would like it would 588 00:28:52,520 --> 00:28:55,440 Speaker 3: automatically put items that I'd already done and check them off. 589 00:28:55,800 --> 00:28:57,240 Speaker 3: So I would look at it and it would say, 590 00:28:57,280 --> 00:29:03,720 Speaker 3: like watch Netflix for two hours, done, went swimming, check done, 591 00:29:03,840 --> 00:29:05,200 Speaker 3: and that was it. I would just look at it. 592 00:29:05,320 --> 00:29:06,680 Speaker 3: The only way. The only thing you can do is 593 00:29:06,720 --> 00:29:07,880 Speaker 3: look at it, and I would just tell you if 594 00:29:07,880 --> 00:29:10,080 Speaker 3: you already did, and then you can be like, yep, 595 00:29:10,400 --> 00:29:11,880 Speaker 3: that's what I did, and you like feel a sense 596 00:29:11,880 --> 00:29:13,800 Speaker 3: of accomplishment as if you would like planned it but 597 00:29:13,880 --> 00:29:16,120 Speaker 3: it didn't really happen. But I don't do that ahead 598 00:29:16,120 --> 00:29:19,000 Speaker 3: of time. I generally I live off my calendar, so 599 00:29:19,040 --> 00:29:20,840 Speaker 3: I do have a pretty well organized calendar. But that's 600 00:29:20,840 --> 00:29:24,520 Speaker 3: because I have Leah with my assistant, who does an 601 00:29:24,520 --> 00:29:26,920 Speaker 3: amazing job and keeping keeping the calendar organized. That's like 602 00:29:26,960 --> 00:29:29,240 Speaker 3: my single source of truth. I wake up in the morning, 603 00:29:29,240 --> 00:29:31,080 Speaker 3: I look at my calendar. I do what my calendar 604 00:29:31,160 --> 00:29:32,440 Speaker 3: tells me to do. I don't question it. 605 00:29:33,440 --> 00:29:33,560 Speaker 1: Uh. 606 00:29:34,040 --> 00:29:36,640 Speaker 3: And but in terms of like the kinds of topics 607 00:29:36,640 --> 00:29:39,479 Speaker 3: and things I'm working on, look, if they're not important 608 00:29:39,560 --> 00:29:42,080 Speaker 3: enough for me to remember, they're probably not really important 609 00:29:42,160 --> 00:29:42,520 Speaker 3: enough to do. 610 00:29:43,320 --> 00:29:45,840 Speaker 1: That's such an interesting way of thinking about things. Now, 611 00:29:45,880 --> 00:29:49,480 Speaker 1: I've heard you talk about the rule of three and 612 00:29:49,840 --> 00:29:52,840 Speaker 1: ten and how life changing that was for you. Can 613 00:29:52,880 --> 00:29:55,040 Speaker 1: you tell me a bit more about the rule of 614 00:29:55,080 --> 00:29:55,720 Speaker 1: three and ten? 615 00:29:56,440 --> 00:29:58,800 Speaker 3: Yeah, So this is something that one of my one 616 00:29:58,840 --> 00:30:03,440 Speaker 3: of my friends and really want my best mentors is 617 00:30:03,640 --> 00:30:07,440 Speaker 3: a guy named the Mickey Harrisia mccattuaney son mcatony son 618 00:30:07,440 --> 00:30:10,640 Speaker 3: is the founder and CEO of Rakuten, which is you know, 619 00:30:10,720 --> 00:30:13,200 Speaker 3: started in Japan, but now it's a big global internet company. 620 00:30:13,880 --> 00:30:16,480 Speaker 3: And he was, you know, the first employee and now 621 00:30:16,480 --> 00:30:19,280 Speaker 3: it's I don't know, thirty hundred thousand employees and he's 622 00:30:19,280 --> 00:30:21,400 Speaker 3: still the CEOs. He's one of the most amazing people 623 00:30:21,400 --> 00:30:24,560 Speaker 3: that actually is like the best CEO from one person 624 00:30:24,640 --> 00:30:27,959 Speaker 3: to tens of thousands of people. And he came up 625 00:30:27,960 --> 00:30:29,960 Speaker 3: with this rule of three and ten, which basically says 626 00:30:30,000 --> 00:30:35,880 Speaker 3: that every time something important triples, everything breaks. So every 627 00:30:35,880 --> 00:30:39,800 Speaker 3: time in your company something important triples, everything breaks. So 628 00:30:39,880 --> 00:30:43,280 Speaker 3: the idea is like, let's say, you know, you start 629 00:30:43,280 --> 00:30:45,520 Speaker 3: a company and it's just you. You're the only person there. 630 00:30:46,080 --> 00:30:48,160 Speaker 3: Kind of figure out how to work, and then you 631 00:30:48,280 --> 00:30:50,960 Speaker 3: like hire one more person and things are okay, and 632 00:30:51,000 --> 00:30:53,080 Speaker 3: then you hire a third person and now it's tripled 633 00:30:53,080 --> 00:30:55,880 Speaker 3: and everything's broken. So now you got to like reconfigure everything. 634 00:30:55,920 --> 00:30:58,640 Speaker 3: So you figure all that stuff out and then four 635 00:30:58,760 --> 00:31:00,480 Speaker 3: or five, six is all fine. But then you hire 636 00:31:00,560 --> 00:31:03,040 Speaker 3: the tenth person, everything breaks again. So it's three and 637 00:31:03,080 --> 00:31:06,320 Speaker 3: ten ten because it's just easier than keeping multiplying by three. 638 00:31:07,200 --> 00:31:09,680 Speaker 3: Nothing magic about ten because you'd be nine, I guess, 639 00:31:09,680 --> 00:31:12,640 Speaker 3: but three and ten is easier to remember. And then, 640 00:31:12,720 --> 00:31:14,880 Speaker 3: you know, you figure it out for ten people, and 641 00:31:14,880 --> 00:31:16,360 Speaker 3: then it breaks again to thirty, and then it breaks 642 00:31:16,400 --> 00:31:17,880 Speaker 3: it one hundred, and then it breaks it three hundred, 643 00:31:18,280 --> 00:31:21,240 Speaker 3: and by it I mean like everything like how you communicate, 644 00:31:21,360 --> 00:31:24,800 Speaker 3: how you pay people, how you keep your calendar, what 645 00:31:24,880 --> 00:31:27,000 Speaker 3: kind of office set up you have if you have 646 00:31:27,040 --> 00:31:30,479 Speaker 3: an office like it all like every time you triple 647 00:31:30,520 --> 00:31:33,920 Speaker 3: something important and tripling. The easiest thing is tripling headcount, 648 00:31:33,960 --> 00:31:36,000 Speaker 3: tripling in place, but it could also been tripling the 649 00:31:36,080 --> 00:31:40,160 Speaker 3: number of customers, tripling the amount of revenue, like you know, 650 00:31:40,200 --> 00:31:44,640 Speaker 3: tripling the number of products that you have. Every substantive 651 00:31:44,640 --> 00:31:49,600 Speaker 3: tripling puts extreme strain on all of your systems, and 652 00:31:49,640 --> 00:31:53,480 Speaker 3: it's worth looking at them and anticipating it. And a 653 00:31:53,480 --> 00:31:57,240 Speaker 3: lot of startups go through multiple triplings without noticing it. 654 00:31:57,720 --> 00:32:00,600 Speaker 3: So like right now at at about we're getting close 655 00:32:00,600 --> 00:32:03,120 Speaker 3: to one hundred people, about one hundred people probably by 656 00:32:03,120 --> 00:32:04,760 Speaker 3: attend this podcast, there is will be a little over 657 00:32:04,800 --> 00:32:07,520 Speaker 3: one hundred people. But you know, but we still have 658 00:32:07,600 --> 00:32:10,240 Speaker 3: certain systems. You're only a year old, so we probably 659 00:32:10,240 --> 00:32:12,239 Speaker 3: have some systems that we put in place when we 660 00:32:12,240 --> 00:32:15,040 Speaker 3: were three people, and so we've missed now several triplings 661 00:32:15,080 --> 00:32:17,720 Speaker 3: because we missed like three to ten, ten to thirty, 662 00:32:18,000 --> 00:32:19,960 Speaker 3: thirty tow one hundred. So those things are like way 663 00:32:20,000 --> 00:32:22,640 Speaker 3: out of date and they need to be refreshed. So 664 00:32:22,680 --> 00:32:24,920 Speaker 3: a lot of startups get into trouble when they kind 665 00:32:24,920 --> 00:32:27,440 Speaker 3: of blow through a few triplings and then things start 666 00:32:27,480 --> 00:32:29,640 Speaker 3: to creak and things start to break. The flip side 667 00:32:29,640 --> 00:32:31,760 Speaker 3: of that is a lot of big companies waste a 668 00:32:31,840 --> 00:32:35,640 Speaker 3: lot of time trying to be quote unquote innovative when 669 00:32:35,680 --> 00:32:37,320 Speaker 3: they really don't have to. Like, you know, if you're 670 00:32:37,320 --> 00:32:39,520 Speaker 3: a ten thousand person company, like you're good until you 671 00:32:39,600 --> 00:32:41,480 Speaker 3: hit thirty thousand people. You don't need to like figure 672 00:32:41,480 --> 00:32:44,440 Speaker 3: out too much stuff. But you know, it's hard. Then 673 00:32:44,480 --> 00:32:46,280 Speaker 3: that may take a decade, but it's hard to like 674 00:32:46,320 --> 00:32:48,960 Speaker 3: sit around for a decade without changing things. So big 675 00:32:48,960 --> 00:32:51,959 Speaker 3: companies tend to chase innovation and change a little bit 676 00:32:52,000 --> 00:32:55,360 Speaker 3: too much, and small companies tend to forget about it 677 00:32:55,640 --> 00:32:57,360 Speaker 3: and break things. So I just try to be mindful 678 00:32:57,360 --> 00:32:57,560 Speaker 3: of that. 679 00:32:57,640 --> 00:33:01,680 Speaker 1: Now, the people that as a manager, why is it 680 00:33:01,720 --> 00:33:06,080 Speaker 1: important to learn the difference between difficult and unpleasant decisions? 681 00:33:06,600 --> 00:33:09,800 Speaker 3: Ah? Yeah, I think that's a good That's that's that's 682 00:33:09,840 --> 00:33:13,200 Speaker 3: like that's probably one of my favorite kind of things 683 00:33:13,200 --> 00:33:15,120 Speaker 3: that I've that I've that I've learned that I've figured 684 00:33:15,160 --> 00:33:20,600 Speaker 3: out about myself. I found that whenever I think, oh man, 685 00:33:20,640 --> 00:33:23,400 Speaker 3: that's a really hard decision, Like that's a hard decision. 686 00:33:23,920 --> 00:33:25,680 Speaker 3: Whenever that happens, whenever I feel like something is a 687 00:33:25,680 --> 00:33:27,800 Speaker 3: hard decision, I like a little red flag goes off, 688 00:33:27,800 --> 00:33:30,400 Speaker 3: and I ask myself, is it hard like it's difficult 689 00:33:30,400 --> 00:33:32,360 Speaker 3: to know what the right answer is? Or is it 690 00:33:32,400 --> 00:33:36,680 Speaker 3: hard like it's unpleasant? And usually the vast majority of 691 00:33:36,760 --> 00:33:40,200 Speaker 3: time when I forced myself, I think through that, I'm like, oh, yeah, 692 00:33:40,200 --> 00:33:41,960 Speaker 3: I know what the right answer is. It is just unpleasant. 693 00:33:42,320 --> 00:33:44,440 Speaker 3: So probably ninety percent of the decisions that I perceive 694 00:33:44,440 --> 00:33:47,080 Speaker 3: as quote unquote hard, they're not actually difficult to know 695 00:33:47,080 --> 00:33:48,400 Speaker 3: what the right answer is. I know what the right 696 00:33:48,440 --> 00:33:51,600 Speaker 3: answer is. They're just unpleasant, they're scary. There's something about 697 00:33:51,640 --> 00:33:54,560 Speaker 3: them that that that's bad. And once I kind of 698 00:33:54,560 --> 00:33:56,920 Speaker 3: identify which one it is, then then things become clear. 699 00:33:57,120 --> 00:34:00,600 Speaker 3: Not easy, but clear. Obviously, if a decision is unpleasant, 700 00:34:00,640 --> 00:34:03,120 Speaker 3: you should still do the right thing, regardless of whether 701 00:34:03,160 --> 00:34:04,920 Speaker 3: it's pleasant or unpleasant. You just have to deal with 702 00:34:04,920 --> 00:34:07,480 Speaker 3: the unpleasantness. But I think what I used to do 703 00:34:07,600 --> 00:34:09,120 Speaker 3: is really conflate those two things, and I think a 704 00:34:09,120 --> 00:34:11,000 Speaker 3: lot of people conflate that. I think a lot of 705 00:34:11,000 --> 00:34:15,680 Speaker 3: people conflate difficult decisions with unpleasant decisions, and they pretend 706 00:34:16,440 --> 00:34:18,080 Speaker 3: that it's hard to know what the right answer is 707 00:34:18,120 --> 00:34:22,719 Speaker 3: when really it's just an unpleasant answer. Uh. And yeah, 708 00:34:22,719 --> 00:34:26,440 Speaker 3: that's that's like a that's probably my favorite, like management 709 00:34:26,480 --> 00:34:28,920 Speaker 3: hack or life hack. It's just like something's a hard 710 00:34:28,960 --> 00:34:30,440 Speaker 3: decision hard how. 711 00:34:31,000 --> 00:34:34,839 Speaker 1: And when you have an unpleasant decision to action, how 712 00:34:35,239 --> 00:34:36,560 Speaker 1: do you approach that conversation? 713 00:34:37,960 --> 00:34:40,440 Speaker 3: Uh? I mean it's very situation right. It depends on 714 00:34:40,560 --> 00:34:44,759 Speaker 3: what's what's unpleasant about it and how, and but ultimately 715 00:34:44,800 --> 00:34:46,640 Speaker 3: you just you have to do the right thing, and 716 00:34:46,719 --> 00:34:49,160 Speaker 3: you have to do the right thing. Like I very 717 00:34:49,200 --> 00:34:52,920 Speaker 3: much dislike words like fearless. I think for a while 718 00:34:52,920 --> 00:34:55,120 Speaker 3: it seems to it seems to be receding, it seems 719 00:34:55,120 --> 00:34:57,520 Speaker 3: to be in remission. But for a while, like a 720 00:34:57,520 --> 00:35:00,720 Speaker 3: few years ago, everyone was like something something fearless, something something. 721 00:35:00,960 --> 00:35:04,360 Speaker 3: It was like it was way overused word. And I 722 00:35:04,400 --> 00:35:08,239 Speaker 3: think fearless is really like people fearless people are just 723 00:35:08,560 --> 00:35:11,560 Speaker 3: genuinely stupid. They really don't have any fear. Then they're 724 00:35:11,600 --> 00:35:14,719 Speaker 3: clearly too dumb to understand what the danger is. I 725 00:35:14,760 --> 00:35:18,520 Speaker 3: never try to be fearless. Being brave is about experiencing fear. 726 00:35:18,920 --> 00:35:22,120 Speaker 3: Like if you're not afraid, you're not brave, you're just dumb. 727 00:35:23,160 --> 00:35:25,920 Speaker 3: So you have to you know, you experience the fear 728 00:35:26,040 --> 00:35:28,440 Speaker 3: and the trepidation, and you allow yourself to experience and 729 00:35:28,480 --> 00:35:30,280 Speaker 3: you just do the thing that you have to do anyway, 730 00:35:30,640 --> 00:35:34,560 Speaker 3: because that's the right thing to do. It's not easy, 731 00:35:34,760 --> 00:35:35,440 Speaker 3: but it's simple. 732 00:35:36,480 --> 00:35:38,640 Speaker 1: Now, on the topic of management hacks, and I'm not 733 00:35:38,640 --> 00:35:41,359 Speaker 1: sure if this falls under that category, but I've heard 734 00:35:41,400 --> 00:35:44,279 Speaker 1: that you always try to be the positive voice in 735 00:35:44,320 --> 00:35:45,120 Speaker 1: a conversation. 736 00:35:45,320 --> 00:35:46,839 Speaker 2: Can you tell me a bit about that. 737 00:35:47,600 --> 00:35:48,880 Speaker 3: It's not so much that I try to be the 738 00:35:48,920 --> 00:35:52,320 Speaker 3: positive voice. It's that there's a strong negativity bias in people. 739 00:35:52,400 --> 00:35:55,200 Speaker 3: Kind of cognitively, I have it. Almost everyone has it, 740 00:35:55,840 --> 00:35:59,320 Speaker 3: where basically it's easier to seem smart if you're being negative. 741 00:36:00,320 --> 00:36:03,520 Speaker 3: And this is especially true in social situations. So you know, 742 00:36:03,520 --> 00:36:05,839 Speaker 3: if you've got a bunch of people sitting around and 743 00:36:06,040 --> 00:36:08,960 Speaker 3: you you ask someone's opinion, they're kind of trying to 744 00:36:08,960 --> 00:36:11,000 Speaker 3: seem smart and thoughtful in front of everyone else, and 745 00:36:11,040 --> 00:36:13,040 Speaker 3: it's much easier to do that by pointing out the weakness, 746 00:36:13,040 --> 00:36:15,000 Speaker 3: by pointing out the problems, by pointing out the risks. 747 00:36:15,280 --> 00:36:18,080 Speaker 3: It's just just how our brains are wired. And then 748 00:36:18,160 --> 00:36:21,000 Speaker 3: you know, the next person has to like top the 749 00:36:21,040 --> 00:36:23,200 Speaker 3: first person and being like negative and afraid and so on. 750 00:36:23,239 --> 00:36:27,720 Speaker 3: So typically like decisions are overwhelmingly weighed towards towards negative, 751 00:36:27,719 --> 00:36:30,360 Speaker 3: towards the safest option, the least bad option, not the 752 00:36:30,400 --> 00:36:33,560 Speaker 3: most good option. And this is you know, there's evolutionary 753 00:36:33,600 --> 00:36:37,880 Speaker 3: biology for this. There's like very basic brain science about this. 754 00:36:38,000 --> 00:36:40,239 Speaker 3: You know, it used to be thought that the amigdala 755 00:36:40,320 --> 00:36:43,719 Speaker 3: the portion of your brain. This is wrong and overly simplified, 756 00:36:43,719 --> 00:36:47,359 Speaker 3: but still useful. There's a portion of your brain that's 757 00:36:47,360 --> 00:36:50,759 Speaker 3: basically in charge of fight or flight responses. That's very 758 00:36:50,800 --> 00:36:53,200 Speaker 3: old in evolutionary terms, that exists in almost all animals. 759 00:36:53,719 --> 00:36:55,839 Speaker 3: And then there's like a much more recent human part 760 00:36:55,840 --> 00:36:58,560 Speaker 3: of the brain that deals with you know, opportunity and 761 00:36:58,640 --> 00:37:02,279 Speaker 3: like happiness and love and strategy, and that's that's in 762 00:37:02,320 --> 00:37:06,240 Speaker 3: evolutionary terms, that's brand new and very very weak compared 763 00:37:06,239 --> 00:37:09,080 Speaker 3: to the power of the of the dark side, of 764 00:37:09,120 --> 00:37:11,000 Speaker 3: the fear and the negative and the risk a version. 765 00:37:12,600 --> 00:37:15,799 Speaker 3: And so when you're making a decision, it's useful to 766 00:37:15,880 --> 00:37:18,760 Speaker 3: understand is this the type of decision where it's important 767 00:37:18,800 --> 00:37:21,239 Speaker 3: to pick the least bad option, or is this the 768 00:37:21,680 --> 00:37:23,480 Speaker 3: type of decision where it's important to pick the most 769 00:37:23,480 --> 00:37:27,120 Speaker 3: good option understanding that least bad and most good are 770 00:37:27,160 --> 00:37:29,399 Speaker 3: often the same. They are often the same the same thing. 771 00:37:29,440 --> 00:37:31,680 Speaker 3: Like something could be the most good if it works, 772 00:37:31,680 --> 00:37:33,480 Speaker 3: but also the most dangerous or the most bad if 773 00:37:33,600 --> 00:37:35,000 Speaker 3: if it doesn't work. So you just gotta know, like 774 00:37:35,280 --> 00:37:36,719 Speaker 3: are you going for least bad or are you going 775 00:37:36,760 --> 00:37:40,840 Speaker 3: for most good? And you know, if you're one hundred 776 00:37:40,880 --> 00:37:44,000 Speaker 3: thousand years ago, you know, one of our our caveman ancestors, 777 00:37:44,040 --> 00:37:45,719 Speaker 3: and you're standing in the middle of a you know, 778 00:37:45,760 --> 00:37:49,400 Speaker 3: a grassy plane and you think you're saw a tiger 779 00:37:49,520 --> 00:37:51,920 Speaker 3: hiding in the grass. That's like the part of your 780 00:37:51,920 --> 00:37:54,960 Speaker 3: brain that's like meant you know, to do that, and 781 00:37:55,000 --> 00:37:56,760 Speaker 3: you're thinking, like, well, should I go into that grass? 782 00:37:56,760 --> 00:37:58,520 Speaker 3: Maybe there's a tiger there? Then yeah, maybe this is 783 00:37:58,520 --> 00:37:59,960 Speaker 3: a type of decisions where you should take the le 784 00:38:00,200 --> 00:38:02,320 Speaker 3: bad outcome, which is like, you know, do everything possible 785 00:38:02,320 --> 00:38:05,040 Speaker 3: to avoid being eaten by a tiger. But if you're 786 00:38:05,040 --> 00:38:07,680 Speaker 3: like running a startup and you're not about to get 787 00:38:07,680 --> 00:38:10,160 Speaker 3: eaten by a tiger, and you're trying to decide about 788 00:38:10,160 --> 00:38:12,759 Speaker 3: a particular you know, what to name your product or 789 00:38:12,760 --> 00:38:14,319 Speaker 3: whether or not to put in a feature, then like 790 00:38:14,360 --> 00:38:16,880 Speaker 3: maybe the downside is pretty limited because like, I can 791 00:38:16,920 --> 00:38:19,080 Speaker 3: be eaten by a tiger regardless of how you decide, 792 00:38:19,080 --> 00:38:21,040 Speaker 3: So you may as well make the decision based on 793 00:38:21,080 --> 00:38:24,040 Speaker 3: what's most good. And you can't do that if you 794 00:38:24,120 --> 00:38:27,280 Speaker 3: allow any any focus on the negatives and the downsides, 795 00:38:27,320 --> 00:38:29,879 Speaker 3: because then then the lizard brain, the amigdal of portion 796 00:38:29,920 --> 00:38:31,719 Speaker 3: of your brain, is going to kick in and you're 797 00:38:31,719 --> 00:38:35,600 Speaker 3: gonna you're gonna buias towards risk version. So when we're 798 00:38:35,600 --> 00:38:37,759 Speaker 3: making decisions where it's important to get the most good, 799 00:38:37,960 --> 00:38:42,000 Speaker 3: not not the least bad, I basically try to discourage 800 00:38:42,000 --> 00:38:45,920 Speaker 3: anyone from saying anything negative, not out of some polyannish 801 00:38:46,000 --> 00:38:47,719 Speaker 3: sense of like I only want to hear good things, 802 00:38:47,719 --> 00:38:50,759 Speaker 3: but because I don't want people's brains shut off. So 803 00:38:51,040 --> 00:38:53,759 Speaker 3: often I'll say, like, okay, I only want to hear 804 00:38:54,360 --> 00:38:56,160 Speaker 3: what can go right. I only want to hear the 805 00:38:56,160 --> 00:39:00,680 Speaker 3: good stuff intentionally as an exercise, as a meditation, because 806 00:39:00,719 --> 00:39:02,880 Speaker 3: I don't want anyone to like start that cycle of 807 00:39:02,920 --> 00:39:05,080 Speaker 3: being like, oh what if we screw it up, maybe 808 00:39:05,080 --> 00:39:08,040 Speaker 3: we get eaten by a tiger, Which doesn't mean we 809 00:39:08,040 --> 00:39:09,440 Speaker 3: don't look at the risks, of course you do. We 810 00:39:09,520 --> 00:39:11,040 Speaker 3: just we just try to separate those two things out 811 00:39:11,040 --> 00:39:13,000 Speaker 3: and look at them, look at them separately. But in 812 00:39:13,080 --> 00:39:16,120 Speaker 3: startup life there's many, many, many, many, many many decisions 813 00:39:16,200 --> 00:39:18,880 Speaker 3: where it's more important to be the most good, not 814 00:39:19,280 --> 00:39:19,959 Speaker 3: the least bad. 815 00:39:21,520 --> 00:39:24,280 Speaker 1: Now, Phil, for people that want to connect with you 816 00:39:24,560 --> 00:39:28,280 Speaker 1: and try out the wonderful things that you are putting 817 00:39:28,480 --> 00:39:31,239 Speaker 1: out into this earth, what is the best way for 818 00:39:31,280 --> 00:39:31,960 Speaker 1: people to do that? 819 00:39:32,719 --> 00:39:34,759 Speaker 3: Well, you can send me an email, but I do 820 00:39:34,840 --> 00:39:38,040 Speaker 3: have one hundred and you know of messages good, lack 821 00:39:38,400 --> 00:39:42,239 Speaker 3: any response, tough, but yeah, you know Twitter, I'm at 822 00:39:42,640 --> 00:39:46,880 Speaker 3: P libbin, p L I B I N or that 823 00:39:47,000 --> 00:39:50,000 Speaker 3: app or al turtles dot com. Really any any of 824 00:39:50,040 --> 00:39:52,759 Speaker 3: those are ways to get in touch. And I am 825 00:39:52,800 --> 00:39:55,040 Speaker 3: happy to happy to chat anytime. 826 00:39:55,600 --> 00:39:59,800 Speaker 1: Amazing, Phil, It's just made such a privilege chatting to you. 827 00:39:59,800 --> 00:40:03,080 Speaker 1: Your products have just made my life so much better. 828 00:40:03,160 --> 00:40:05,000 Speaker 1: So thank you for the work that you've done. 829 00:40:05,239 --> 00:40:07,400 Speaker 3: Well, thank you so much. It's extremely kind of you 830 00:40:07,560 --> 00:40:08,759 Speaker 3: and really fun to chat. 831 00:40:09,920 --> 00:40:10,560 Speaker 2: Hello there. 832 00:40:10,600 --> 00:40:14,080 Speaker 1: I hope you liked my chat with Phil. And if 833 00:40:14,080 --> 00:40:17,120 Speaker 1: you know someone that you think would find it really useful, 834 00:40:17,120 --> 00:40:20,480 Speaker 1: why not share this episode with them? And if you 835 00:40:20,600 --> 00:40:22,959 Speaker 1: are not a subscriber or follower of how I work 836 00:40:23,000 --> 00:40:25,080 Speaker 1: in the app that you are listening to this from, 837 00:40:25,520 --> 00:40:28,480 Speaker 1: you might want to hit subscribe or follow because next 838 00:40:28,520 --> 00:40:32,520 Speaker 1: week I'm so excited to have one of my favorite authors, 839 00:40:32,760 --> 00:40:36,719 Speaker 1: Sally Hepworth, on the show. Sally is a New York 840 00:40:36,760 --> 00:40:42,880 Speaker 1: Times best selling author and she thinks so deeply about 841 00:40:42,920 --> 00:40:46,120 Speaker 1: how she approaches her work, and one of the things 842 00:40:46,120 --> 00:40:48,680 Speaker 1: that we will be delving into is how Sally is 843 00:40:49,000 --> 00:40:53,400 Speaker 1: very intentional with setting boundaries in her life. How I 844 00:40:53,480 --> 00:40:56,319 Speaker 1: Work is produced by Inventium with production support from Dead 845 00:40:56,360 --> 00:40:59,879 Speaker 1: Set Studios. The producer for this episode was Jenna Coat, 846 00:41:00,520 --> 00:41:02,720 Speaker 1: and thank you to Martin Nimba, who is the audio 847 00:41:02,840 --> 00:41:05,759 Speaker 1: mix for every episode and makes all of this sound 848 00:41:05,800 --> 00:41:08,600 Speaker 1: much better than it would have otherwise. See you next time.