1 00:00:02,680 --> 00:00:05,000 Speaker 1: My name is Lily Maddon and I'm a proud Arunda 2 00:00:05,200 --> 00:00:10,000 Speaker 1: Bunjelung Calcottin woman from Gadighl Country. The Daily oz acknowledges 3 00:00:10,080 --> 00:00:12,280 Speaker 1: that this podcast is recorded on the lands of the 4 00:00:12,280 --> 00:00:15,840 Speaker 1: Gadighl people and pays respect to all Aboriginal and Torres 5 00:00:15,840 --> 00:00:18,759 Speaker 1: Strait Island and nations. We pay our respects to the 6 00:00:18,800 --> 00:00:21,560 Speaker 1: first peoples of these countries, both past and present. 7 00:00:26,920 --> 00:00:29,400 Speaker 2: Good morning and welcome to the Daily Os. It's Monday, 8 00:00:29,440 --> 00:00:30,280 Speaker 2: the sixth of March. 9 00:00:30,440 --> 00:00:31,840 Speaker 3: I'm Zara, I'm Sam. 10 00:00:32,240 --> 00:00:35,200 Speaker 2: About a month ago we brought you tda's first ever 11 00:00:35,360 --> 00:00:38,920 Speaker 2: interview with a sitting Prime Minister, and now today we 12 00:00:39,040 --> 00:00:41,479 Speaker 2: are so excited to be bringing you something from the 13 00:00:41,520 --> 00:00:43,320 Speaker 2: complete other side of politics. 14 00:00:43,520 --> 00:00:46,440 Speaker 3: That's right. In another special episode of The Daily Os, 15 00:00:46,440 --> 00:00:49,600 Speaker 3: our political journalist Tom Crowley sits down with Leader of 16 00:00:49,600 --> 00:00:52,920 Speaker 3: the Opposition Peter Dutton to talk about climate, the economy, 17 00:00:53,000 --> 00:00:55,800 Speaker 3: an Indigenous voice to Parliament and so much more. 18 00:00:55,880 --> 00:00:58,000 Speaker 2: There is a lot to get through today. It's the 19 00:00:58,000 --> 00:01:00,240 Speaker 2: first time we've ever spoken to the leader of the 20 00:01:00,240 --> 00:01:03,320 Speaker 2: Liberal Party and we want to jump straight into it. 21 00:01:03,440 --> 00:01:05,959 Speaker 2: A quick trigger warning before we do so, though there 22 00:01:06,040 --> 00:01:09,880 Speaker 2: are some descriptions of domestic and family violence in this episode. 23 00:01:09,959 --> 00:01:12,040 Speaker 2: If you or anyone you know needs help, you can 24 00:01:12,080 --> 00:01:14,920 Speaker 2: call one eight hundred respect on one eight hundred seven 25 00:01:14,959 --> 00:01:16,720 Speaker 2: three seven seven three to two. 26 00:01:21,680 --> 00:01:23,559 Speaker 4: Peter Dutton, thank you for speaking to the Daily Eyes. 27 00:01:23,600 --> 00:01:24,200 Speaker 5: Thanks Tom. 28 00:01:24,440 --> 00:01:27,720 Speaker 4: The coalition's got some trouble attracting young voters. What do 29 00:01:27,760 --> 00:01:29,560 Speaker 4: you think matters to young people and why do they 30 00:01:29,560 --> 00:01:30,880 Speaker 4: feel that they're not getting that from you? 31 00:01:31,240 --> 00:01:31,960 Speaker 5: I think a few things. 32 00:01:32,120 --> 00:01:34,240 Speaker 6: I think we've allowed the Liberal Party to be defined 33 00:01:34,240 --> 00:01:37,199 Speaker 6: by our opponents as opposed to making it very clear 34 00:01:37,200 --> 00:01:39,880 Speaker 6: as to who we are. I mean we stand for aspiration, 35 00:01:40,120 --> 00:01:44,319 Speaker 6: we stand for rewarding effort and for young people as 36 00:01:44,360 --> 00:01:48,520 Speaker 6: a particular focus at a different stage in life maybe 37 00:01:49,320 --> 00:01:52,800 Speaker 6: than right now. On home ownership and how are you 38 00:01:52,840 --> 00:01:56,960 Speaker 6: going to balance a budget once kids come along? How 39 00:01:57,000 --> 00:01:59,640 Speaker 6: you can save money for retirement? Also, I'm in final 40 00:01:59,680 --> 00:02:02,560 Speaker 6: point is if the government's doing well and the economy 41 00:02:02,600 --> 00:02:05,440 Speaker 6: is being run well, then you could afford to put 42 00:02:05,480 --> 00:02:09,560 Speaker 6: money into all sorts of projects, social projects, environmental projects 43 00:02:09,600 --> 00:02:10,760 Speaker 6: that otherwise couldn't be funded. 44 00:02:11,400 --> 00:02:14,160 Speaker 4: You mentioned the climate there briefly. It's obviously an issue 45 00:02:14,160 --> 00:02:15,560 Speaker 4: that is front of mind for a lot of young 46 00:02:15,600 --> 00:02:19,360 Speaker 4: people since the election, the coalitions oppose Labour's climate target 47 00:02:19,400 --> 00:02:22,600 Speaker 4: and is opposing another labor climate policy. Now, but looking forward, 48 00:02:22,800 --> 00:02:24,000 Speaker 4: what's your climate policy. 49 00:02:24,240 --> 00:02:27,200 Speaker 6: Well, we're in favor of the targets, we're against the 50 00:02:27,320 --> 00:02:30,919 Speaker 6: legislation of it, and there are a few reasons for that. 51 00:02:31,080 --> 00:02:34,840 Speaker 6: But our commitment is to make sure that we can 52 00:02:35,360 --> 00:02:38,840 Speaker 6: reduce emissions in a credible way. And I'd love to 53 00:02:38,880 --> 00:02:40,960 Speaker 6: say that the battery that we have at the moment, 54 00:02:41,000 --> 00:02:43,560 Speaker 6: the technology is more advanced than it is, but it's not. 55 00:02:43,720 --> 00:02:46,079 Speaker 6: So we have to be careful about turning the old 56 00:02:46,120 --> 00:02:48,480 Speaker 6: system off before the new system starts. 57 00:02:48,639 --> 00:02:49,960 Speaker 5: So how do we get there credibly? 58 00:02:50,000 --> 00:02:54,480 Speaker 6: We've started a conversation in relation to nuclear power, for example, 59 00:02:54,600 --> 00:02:58,519 Speaker 6: many other countries. Justin Trudeau in Canada is a huge 60 00:02:58,560 --> 00:03:01,800 Speaker 6: advocate of the small modular react The President Macron in 61 00:03:02,000 --> 00:03:05,400 Speaker 6: France greth Unburg now is talking about the value of 62 00:03:06,120 --> 00:03:09,480 Speaker 6: nuclear that the new small modular react there's not big plants, 63 00:03:09,840 --> 00:03:12,960 Speaker 6: but the beauty is that they have zero emissions and 64 00:03:13,000 --> 00:03:15,160 Speaker 6: they confirm up renewables coming into the system. 65 00:03:15,320 --> 00:03:17,079 Speaker 4: A lot of the experts though on nuclear point to 66 00:03:17,120 --> 00:03:18,400 Speaker 4: the fact that that will take a long time to 67 00:03:18,400 --> 00:03:20,880 Speaker 4: come online and is unlikely in the Australian context to 68 00:03:20,919 --> 00:03:22,880 Speaker 4: account for all of our needs. Do you accept that a 69 00:03:22,919 --> 00:03:24,880 Speaker 4: lot of the volatility that we have the energy market 70 00:03:24,880 --> 00:03:26,800 Speaker 4: at the moment is, as some experts say, because of 71 00:03:26,919 --> 00:03:28,880 Speaker 4: underfunding and renewables over a period of time. 72 00:03:29,280 --> 00:03:30,880 Speaker 6: I think the difficulty at the moment and why people 73 00:03:30,880 --> 00:03:33,480 Speaker 6: are seeing a big increase in their power bills is 74 00:03:33,520 --> 00:03:35,880 Speaker 6: that you've still got to pay for the firming up. 75 00:03:36,000 --> 00:03:39,760 Speaker 6: So again, if the technology meant that the solar panels 76 00:03:39,960 --> 00:03:43,640 Speaker 6: went of a nighttime and provided energy, fantastic, but that's 77 00:03:43,680 --> 00:03:47,280 Speaker 6: not the technology. So I just think in a sense 78 00:03:47,280 --> 00:03:49,040 Speaker 6: you want to be agnostic about it. Because if you 79 00:03:49,080 --> 00:03:52,320 Speaker 6: can use the existing distribution network, you can use a 80 00:03:52,360 --> 00:03:55,640 Speaker 6: technology that's proven, and you can have the small modular 81 00:03:55,640 --> 00:03:59,200 Speaker 6: reactors in place by twenty thirty, that's a pretty significant outcome, 82 00:03:59,240 --> 00:04:00,760 Speaker 6: and as I say, I think it's one that we 83 00:04:00,800 --> 00:04:02,960 Speaker 6: should be open minded to it and at least have 84 00:04:03,000 --> 00:04:04,000 Speaker 6: the conversation on. 85 00:04:04,240 --> 00:04:05,680 Speaker 4: Whant to move on to the cost of living, which 86 00:04:05,680 --> 00:04:07,720 Speaker 4: is something elsewhere. You've been quite critical of the government's 87 00:04:07,720 --> 00:04:09,920 Speaker 4: management and for prices going up, But if you were 88 00:04:09,920 --> 00:04:12,240 Speaker 4: the Prime minister, what would you be doing to stop 89 00:04:12,280 --> 00:04:13,080 Speaker 4: prices from going on. 90 00:04:13,160 --> 00:04:15,880 Speaker 6: Well, I think you've got a system which is inflationary, 91 00:04:16,320 --> 00:04:18,520 Speaker 6: and so the Reserve Bank governor gets all the blame, 92 00:04:18,600 --> 00:04:22,039 Speaker 6: but he has to deal with the economic settings that 93 00:04:22,160 --> 00:04:25,359 Speaker 6: are a result of the government's policies, and at the 94 00:04:25,360 --> 00:04:29,200 Speaker 6: time when he's trying to increase interest rates to get 95 00:04:29,200 --> 00:04:34,080 Speaker 6: above inflation, the government's driving inflation further. And it's no 96 00:04:34,200 --> 00:04:38,000 Speaker 6: mistake that during the coalition's time and government, in nine years, 97 00:04:38,800 --> 00:04:40,880 Speaker 6: out of one hundred meetings of the Reserve Bank, they 98 00:04:40,920 --> 00:04:44,880 Speaker 6: increased interest rates on one occasion. Labour's been in power, 99 00:04:45,320 --> 00:04:49,200 Speaker 6: they've had eight meetings, they've increased interest rates eight times. Uses. 100 00:04:49,240 --> 00:04:50,599 Speaker 4: I mean, the interest rates at the moment are a 101 00:04:50,600 --> 00:04:53,039 Speaker 4: global issue, and the interest rates began to rise under 102 00:04:53,040 --> 00:04:55,320 Speaker 4: the coalition. It's not a problem at the moment that's 103 00:04:55,400 --> 00:04:58,080 Speaker 4: unique to Australia. And so I guess in terms of 104 00:04:58,440 --> 00:05:00,599 Speaker 4: positive steps that the government could be taking, you've been 105 00:05:00,680 --> 00:05:03,680 Speaker 4: very critical about prices going up under Labor. What specifically 106 00:05:03,680 --> 00:05:04,679 Speaker 4: would you do, well. 107 00:05:04,560 --> 00:05:06,839 Speaker 6: I suppose the point I'm making is that you don't 108 00:05:06,880 --> 00:05:10,560 Speaker 6: want to be fueling inflation if you're in government, and 109 00:05:10,640 --> 00:05:13,320 Speaker 6: so if they're increasing spending and they're putting more money 110 00:05:13,360 --> 00:05:15,640 Speaker 6: into the economy that he's driving up inflation. And don't 111 00:05:15,640 --> 00:05:18,160 Speaker 6: forget that the Prime Minister promised on ninety seven occasions, 112 00:05:18,520 --> 00:05:22,680 Speaker 6: including twenty seven occasions after the Ukraine had been invaded 113 00:05:22,680 --> 00:05:25,440 Speaker 6: by Russia, he promised that he would deliver a two 114 00:05:25,480 --> 00:05:27,880 Speaker 6: hundred and seventy five dollars cut to your power bill. 115 00:05:27,920 --> 00:05:30,800 Speaker 6: He's never mentioned that figure since the election. And he 116 00:05:30,880 --> 00:05:33,880 Speaker 6: knew of all those international factors, and knowing that Russia 117 00:05:33,960 --> 00:05:36,760 Speaker 6: was already into Ukraine, and knowing that that would be 118 00:05:36,800 --> 00:05:40,240 Speaker 6: a pressure on cost of living and inflation here in Australia, 119 00:05:40,440 --> 00:05:43,600 Speaker 6: oil prices and gas prices, he still made that commitment, 120 00:05:43,640 --> 00:05:44,600 Speaker 6: knowing that he couldn't deliver it. 121 00:05:44,640 --> 00:05:46,240 Speaker 4: But to get a story, over the last decade in 122 00:05:46,240 --> 00:05:48,599 Speaker 4: Australia has been that wages have not kept up with prices, 123 00:05:48,600 --> 00:05:50,520 Speaker 4: which is part of the reason why this current cost 124 00:05:50,520 --> 00:05:52,640 Speaker 4: of living crunch is so difficult for people. But the 125 00:05:52,680 --> 00:05:54,960 Speaker 4: government expressed a view that a five percent minimum wage 126 00:05:54,960 --> 00:05:58,160 Speaker 4: increase was appropriate, and the Coalition did not express that forew. 127 00:05:57,960 --> 00:06:00,880 Speaker 6: Well, they expressed it in a high inflation environment, which 128 00:06:00,920 --> 00:06:03,680 Speaker 6: as you point out, has really taken off under labor 129 00:06:04,120 --> 00:06:07,160 Speaker 6: and inflation's high, but interest rates are higher as a result, 130 00:06:07,200 --> 00:06:09,760 Speaker 6: and as the Reserve Bank Governor's pointed out, and as 131 00:06:09,760 --> 00:06:11,560 Speaker 6: the Treasurer said, you don't want to get yourself into 132 00:06:11,560 --> 00:06:15,440 Speaker 6: a situation where wages go up by five percent, inflation 133 00:06:15,560 --> 00:06:18,640 Speaker 6: goes up, interest rates go up as a result because 134 00:06:19,000 --> 00:06:20,640 Speaker 6: you're getting more in your paypacket and you end up 135 00:06:20,640 --> 00:06:23,400 Speaker 6: paying more to the bank at the end of each month. 136 00:06:23,400 --> 00:06:25,880 Speaker 5: The reach fortnite when you're paying your mortgage. 137 00:06:25,839 --> 00:06:28,279 Speaker 6: Or your rent because rents go up as a result 138 00:06:28,320 --> 00:06:29,240 Speaker 6: of increased interest rates. 139 00:06:29,279 --> 00:06:29,799 Speaker 5: As well. 140 00:06:30,000 --> 00:06:31,440 Speaker 4: On that issue of renters, there are a lot of 141 00:06:31,480 --> 00:06:33,279 Speaker 4: renters who are struggling under stress at the moment. Is 142 00:06:33,279 --> 00:06:35,520 Speaker 4: there more the government could be doing specifically. 143 00:06:34,960 --> 00:06:38,159 Speaker 6: Well, we went to the last election with a pretty 144 00:06:38,160 --> 00:06:43,560 Speaker 6: strong policy which the Labor Party rejected. But allowing people 145 00:06:43,640 --> 00:06:48,440 Speaker 6: young people for their first time purchase to access their superannuation. 146 00:06:48,600 --> 00:06:50,520 Speaker 6: Now that takes pressure off the rental market, if you're 147 00:06:50,520 --> 00:06:53,840 Speaker 6: pulling people into home ownership, which is again the aspiration 148 00:06:53,920 --> 00:06:54,800 Speaker 6: of many young people. 149 00:06:54,880 --> 00:06:56,560 Speaker 4: Now later this year there's going to be a referendum 150 00:06:56,600 --> 00:06:58,880 Speaker 4: one and Indigenous voice to Parliament. Have you made a 151 00:06:58,880 --> 00:07:00,679 Speaker 4: decision yet? Do you support a voice department? 152 00:07:00,760 --> 00:07:04,480 Speaker 6: Well, I certainly support a voice of Indigenous people, and 153 00:07:04,520 --> 00:07:07,159 Speaker 6: we went to the last election with that policy in 154 00:07:07,160 --> 00:07:12,480 Speaker 6: the Constitution in legislation. I support a voice in the legislation, 155 00:07:12,520 --> 00:07:15,280 Speaker 6: there's no question about that. The question is whether or 156 00:07:15,360 --> 00:07:20,440 Speaker 6: not the government's proposed words in the Constitution deliver that 157 00:07:20,560 --> 00:07:23,520 Speaker 6: the practical outcome that we want for Indigenous Australians. We 158 00:07:23,600 --> 00:07:25,480 Speaker 6: haven't yet seen the final form of what it is 159 00:07:25,520 --> 00:07:28,120 Speaker 6: the government's going to propose. We want the details so 160 00:07:28,160 --> 00:07:30,760 Speaker 6: that we know, even if we're instinctively in support of 161 00:07:31,600 --> 00:07:33,480 Speaker 6: the voice, how it's going to work and how it's 162 00:07:33,520 --> 00:07:34,160 Speaker 6: going to improve. 163 00:07:35,480 --> 00:07:38,040 Speaker 4: Detail, as you say, is something that will be legislated, 164 00:07:38,040 --> 00:07:40,200 Speaker 4: that you'll have the opportunity to debate in Parliament, and 165 00:07:40,240 --> 00:07:42,240 Speaker 4: that you could change in government in future if you 166 00:07:42,280 --> 00:07:45,040 Speaker 4: wanted to. The proposed wording for the Constitution does not 167 00:07:45,080 --> 00:07:47,960 Speaker 4: make any specifications about the voice, So why is that 168 00:07:48,040 --> 00:07:50,240 Speaker 4: an issue that matters as far as entraining it in 169 00:07:50,240 --> 00:07:51,720 Speaker 4: the Constitution, which is something. 170 00:07:52,880 --> 00:07:56,040 Speaker 6: Because it's open to the interpretation of the courts, and 171 00:07:56,480 --> 00:08:00,760 Speaker 6: the High Court can interpret a form of words in 172 00:08:00,800 --> 00:08:01,840 Speaker 6: a way that you and I can't. 173 00:08:01,840 --> 00:08:03,640 Speaker 4: I meant a number of High Court justices and former 174 00:08:03,680 --> 00:08:06,320 Speaker 4: High Court justices have made assurances that there's no particular 175 00:08:06,360 --> 00:08:08,960 Speaker 4: issue with that word, and what specifically is the concern. 176 00:08:08,720 --> 00:08:10,840 Speaker 6: Well that there are High Court justices who have made 177 00:08:10,840 --> 00:08:11,960 Speaker 6: the opposite case as well. 178 00:08:12,120 --> 00:08:14,320 Speaker 5: So I just think we've got to take a step. 179 00:08:14,080 --> 00:08:18,960 Speaker 6: Back and look at the question, for example, of when 180 00:08:19,000 --> 00:08:23,520 Speaker 6: the Prime Minister says the Voice will only be concerned 181 00:08:23,520 --> 00:08:26,960 Speaker 6: with issues relating to Indigenous Australians. Now, I mean, do 182 00:08:27,000 --> 00:08:30,160 Speaker 6: you think that that includes health and education? Of course, 183 00:08:30,560 --> 00:08:34,280 Speaker 6: does it include law and order and policies around those 184 00:08:34,320 --> 00:08:37,040 Speaker 6: areas in communities? Of course it does. But it's actually 185 00:08:37,080 --> 00:08:42,280 Speaker 6: a racist statement to say that an Indigenous person is 186 00:08:42,440 --> 00:08:46,040 Speaker 6: impacted differently than a non Indigenous person in relation to 187 00:08:46,080 --> 00:08:49,800 Speaker 6: any area of public policy. Defense affects Indigenous people exactly 188 00:08:49,840 --> 00:08:53,480 Speaker 6: the same way as it does non Indigenous people, and 189 00:08:53,600 --> 00:08:56,320 Speaker 6: that's been ruled out by the Prime ministers it but 190 00:08:56,600 --> 00:08:58,080 Speaker 6: he can't rule that out. So I think there are 191 00:08:58,080 --> 00:09:00,800 Speaker 6: just questions that are reasonably asked. But do I want 192 00:09:00,840 --> 00:09:04,040 Speaker 6: to hear from Indigenous Australians about how we can improve 193 00:09:04,040 --> 00:09:04,560 Speaker 6: the situation? 194 00:09:04,720 --> 00:09:05,240 Speaker 5: Absolutely. 195 00:09:05,320 --> 00:09:07,120 Speaker 4: I mean, you've been around governments for a long time. 196 00:09:07,160 --> 00:09:08,960 Speaker 4: You've been in governments that have failed to make any 197 00:09:09,000 --> 00:09:12,600 Speaker 4: progress on closing the gap. Targets all significant progress. Why 198 00:09:12,720 --> 00:09:14,920 Speaker 4: is government failing to hear these voices? And is that 199 00:09:14,960 --> 00:09:16,719 Speaker 4: not exactly the kind of problem that a voice is 200 00:09:16,760 --> 00:09:17,280 Speaker 4: trying to solve. 201 00:09:17,640 --> 00:09:20,839 Speaker 6: Look, I think there's been a huge failing for the 202 00:09:20,920 --> 00:09:23,600 Speaker 6: last a couple hundred years. I mean, let's be very 203 00:09:23,640 --> 00:09:28,680 Speaker 6: frank about it. The situation for Indigenous Australians didn't improve 204 00:09:28,760 --> 00:09:31,520 Speaker 6: during Kevin Rud and Julia Gillard's time in terms of 205 00:09:31,559 --> 00:09:35,200 Speaker 6: the closing the gap indicators, it didn't include, It didn't 206 00:09:36,080 --> 00:09:39,720 Speaker 6: improve sufficiently during the coalition's period, through the Howard government, 207 00:09:39,760 --> 00:09:41,400 Speaker 6: through the Morrison government. 208 00:09:41,480 --> 00:09:46,520 Speaker 5: It hasn't improved. Now. Why not, Well because a few reasons. 209 00:09:46,640 --> 00:09:50,880 Speaker 6: You've had lots of bodies set up with strong Indigenous 210 00:09:50,960 --> 00:09:55,160 Speaker 6: voices about what policies should be rolled out, and even 211 00:09:55,320 --> 00:09:59,480 Speaker 6: with that, it hasn't improved. It's a ridiculous statement to 212 00:09:59,520 --> 00:10:02,200 Speaker 6: say that in the Rud government or the Gillard government 213 00:10:02,320 --> 00:10:05,400 Speaker 6: or the Abbot government that Indigenous people didn't have a 214 00:10:05,440 --> 00:10:07,880 Speaker 6: say or a voice in policy formulation. 215 00:10:08,000 --> 00:10:10,280 Speaker 5: Of course they did. There's a lot of. 216 00:10:10,320 --> 00:10:13,560 Speaker 6: Anger within Indigenous communities about the amount of money that's 217 00:10:13,600 --> 00:10:16,480 Speaker 6: poured in by Canberra and the States, and in many 218 00:10:16,480 --> 00:10:18,920 Speaker 6: cases local government as well, and by the time it 219 00:10:18,960 --> 00:10:23,400 Speaker 6: gets down to those communities, it's on some accounts thirty 220 00:10:23,400 --> 00:10:26,640 Speaker 6: percent or less. So there are layers and layers and 221 00:10:26,760 --> 00:10:32,319 Speaker 6: layers of bureaucracy, both in Indigenous corporations and non Indigenous corporations, 222 00:10:32,640 --> 00:10:34,600 Speaker 6: where a lot of that money is soaked up before 223 00:10:34,640 --> 00:10:36,920 Speaker 6: the services are provided on the ground. Now, will the 224 00:10:37,000 --> 00:10:39,920 Speaker 6: voice improve that or add another layer of bureaucracy? 225 00:10:39,960 --> 00:10:42,160 Speaker 5: Well, that's a reasonable. 226 00:10:41,760 --> 00:10:44,400 Speaker 6: Question to ask, and that's why I hope a Prime 227 00:10:44,400 --> 00:10:45,840 Speaker 6: minister can provide that detail. 228 00:10:45,920 --> 00:10:48,800 Speaker 4: And consistent polls show that a strong majority of Indigenous 229 00:10:48,800 --> 00:10:50,200 Speaker 4: people support a voice. 230 00:10:49,960 --> 00:10:53,920 Speaker 6: No question, no question, But there are Indigenous people who don't, 231 00:10:53,960 --> 00:10:57,200 Speaker 6: and their voice is as important as any others within 232 00:10:57,240 --> 00:10:57,840 Speaker 6: the community. 233 00:10:58,120 --> 00:11:00,040 Speaker 4: I want to pivot to mental health, which is a 234 00:11:00,120 --> 00:11:02,240 Speaker 4: system that for years there have been warnings about cost 235 00:11:02,240 --> 00:11:04,880 Speaker 4: and access barriers getting worse. How did the system get 236 00:11:04,920 --> 00:11:06,960 Speaker 4: into such a state and what's the way forward. 237 00:11:07,000 --> 00:11:10,040 Speaker 6: Well, there's certainly been an increase in demand as a 238 00:11:10,040 --> 00:11:12,120 Speaker 6: result of COVID, and I know anecdotally. I mean, you 239 00:11:12,120 --> 00:11:15,719 Speaker 6: speak to friends here in Victoria, which is probably the 240 00:11:15,760 --> 00:11:21,000 Speaker 6: hardest hit state by the lockdowns of their daughters, their sisters, 241 00:11:21,040 --> 00:11:24,880 Speaker 6: self harming and mental health issues that were never present 242 00:11:24,920 --> 00:11:29,120 Speaker 6: before COVID. And again when we were in government, we 243 00:11:29,200 --> 00:11:33,160 Speaker 6: put significant billions of dollars more into mental health. The 244 00:11:33,200 --> 00:11:36,040 Speaker 6: government's cut some of that back in the most recent budget. 245 00:11:36,440 --> 00:11:37,920 Speaker 4: I mean that was something that was due to be 246 00:11:37,960 --> 00:11:38,640 Speaker 4: cut back under it. 247 00:11:38,640 --> 00:11:41,240 Speaker 6: Well, it was due to be renewed, and that's what 248 00:11:41,280 --> 00:11:45,120 Speaker 6: happens with policies. Policies aren't It was an expiry date. 249 00:11:45,160 --> 00:11:46,520 Speaker 6: It was a COVID measure that was due to. 250 00:11:46,440 --> 00:11:47,959 Speaker 5: Expct but it was due to be renewed. 251 00:11:48,040 --> 00:11:50,959 Speaker 6: I mean this is there are many government programs that 252 00:11:51,320 --> 00:11:52,640 Speaker 6: don't go into perpetuity. 253 00:11:52,679 --> 00:11:52,920 Speaker 5: They have. 254 00:11:53,280 --> 00:11:55,520 Speaker 4: It's clearly a much broader issue in terms of access 255 00:11:55,559 --> 00:11:57,480 Speaker 4: to the system, that the system is not providing people 256 00:11:57,559 --> 00:11:58,000 Speaker 4: enough access. 257 00:11:58,240 --> 00:11:59,800 Speaker 6: Well, there's no question about that. I mean if you 258 00:11:59,800 --> 00:12:01,720 Speaker 6: look what we did in Headspace and when we expanded 259 00:12:01,720 --> 00:12:04,840 Speaker 6: Headspace dramatically. So I don't think there's a lack of 260 00:12:05,760 --> 00:12:09,280 Speaker 6: effort or desire from anyone, frankly on either side of politics. 261 00:12:09,320 --> 00:12:11,320 Speaker 5: I think it's above that issue. 262 00:12:11,880 --> 00:12:13,280 Speaker 3: We're going to take a short break. 263 00:12:13,320 --> 00:12:14,120 Speaker 5: We'll be right back. 264 00:12:20,120 --> 00:12:21,959 Speaker 4: A couple more topics I want to get through. One 265 00:12:22,040 --> 00:12:25,160 Speaker 4: is family violence, and that's another one where governments, despite 266 00:12:25,160 --> 00:12:28,640 Speaker 4: the best intentions, including your governments, failed to really deliver 267 00:12:28,880 --> 00:12:31,200 Speaker 4: tangible progress. What's going to break that cycle? 268 00:12:31,240 --> 00:12:33,040 Speaker 6: I mean, we could spend all day talking about what 269 00:12:33,040 --> 00:12:35,679 Speaker 6: I think is an incredibly important issue. I was a 270 00:12:35,679 --> 00:12:38,240 Speaker 6: policeman a long time ago. I went to many domestic 271 00:12:38,360 --> 00:12:41,640 Speaker 6: violent situations and I can tell you when you arrive 272 00:12:41,720 --> 00:12:46,280 Speaker 6: at home and you hear screams of help and force 273 00:12:46,320 --> 00:12:49,280 Speaker 6: your way into a home and find a woman on 274 00:12:49,320 --> 00:12:52,360 Speaker 6: the ground covered in blood, or a child injured or 275 00:12:53,000 --> 00:12:56,200 Speaker 6: sexually assaulted, their horrific scenes and they stay with you forever. 276 00:12:56,800 --> 00:13:00,840 Speaker 6: And I've always had, as frankly my number one, the 277 00:13:00,920 --> 00:13:04,000 Speaker 6: desire to see a reduction in that violence. As Home 278 00:13:04,040 --> 00:13:07,640 Speaker 6: Affairs Minister, I put eighty million dollars into the Istralians 279 00:13:07,640 --> 00:13:11,640 Speaker 6: Center account a Child exploitation, so that stops kids from 280 00:13:12,000 --> 00:13:14,240 Speaker 6: being abused in the first place, takes kids out of 281 00:13:14,280 --> 00:13:18,560 Speaker 6: harmful situations. And again, I think it comes back to 282 00:13:19,080 --> 00:13:25,400 Speaker 6: the normalization of violence through many computer games. I think 283 00:13:25,400 --> 00:13:28,960 Speaker 6: it comes down to how people are educating, particularly their 284 00:13:29,000 --> 00:13:34,080 Speaker 6: boys when they're young, and the circumstances, the conversations that 285 00:13:34,080 --> 00:13:37,840 Speaker 6: they're hearing within their own home and within the workplace 286 00:13:37,880 --> 00:13:40,720 Speaker 6: as they get older, we still haven't got the mix right. 287 00:13:40,920 --> 00:13:45,040 Speaker 6: And so all of those messages are out there, they're consistent, 288 00:13:45,120 --> 00:13:50,360 Speaker 6: they're being pushed, but it'll take time and sadly you'd 289 00:13:50,400 --> 00:13:52,120 Speaker 6: want to change it overnight. I just don't know that 290 00:13:52,120 --> 00:13:52,760 Speaker 6: that's possible. 291 00:13:53,080 --> 00:13:57,160 Speaker 4: Bipartisan policy for years has seen refugees and asylum seekers 292 00:13:57,559 --> 00:14:01,200 Speaker 4: detained indefinitely, and often in reports of really appalling conditions 293 00:14:01,200 --> 00:14:03,600 Speaker 4: within those detention centers, including during your time as a 294 00:14:03,600 --> 00:14:06,160 Speaker 4: responsible minister. I'll ask you the same question that I 295 00:14:06,160 --> 00:14:08,840 Speaker 4: asked the Prime Minister. Why does Australia treat people this way? 296 00:14:09,080 --> 00:14:11,280 Speaker 6: Well, we have one of the most generous migrant intakes 297 00:14:11,280 --> 00:14:13,840 Speaker 6: in the world on a per capita basis. We settle 298 00:14:13,840 --> 00:14:16,199 Speaker 6: more people in our country than any other country. 299 00:14:16,559 --> 00:14:18,960 Speaker 4: We can have a committee consistently express this concern about 300 00:14:18,960 --> 00:14:21,200 Speaker 4: the way that people are treated inside Australia's. 301 00:14:20,760 --> 00:14:24,520 Speaker 5: Detention Well, the U and hc are High Commissioner at 302 00:14:24,520 --> 00:14:25,320 Speaker 5: the time. 303 00:14:26,920 --> 00:14:28,720 Speaker 6: Said to me when I met with him, that we 304 00:14:28,760 --> 00:14:32,520 Speaker 6: had the best, probably equal. 305 00:14:32,200 --> 00:14:35,600 Speaker 5: Best with Canada resettlement program. 306 00:14:36,000 --> 00:14:39,000 Speaker 4: But I'm talking about the conditions within detention centers where 307 00:14:39,040 --> 00:14:41,520 Speaker 4: thousands of people are being detained indefinitely. 308 00:14:41,000 --> 00:14:42,240 Speaker 5: I mean the Prime Minister. 309 00:14:42,440 --> 00:14:44,080 Speaker 6: I don't know whether he said that they made a 310 00:14:44,120 --> 00:14:47,200 Speaker 6: mistake in allowing women and children drowning at sea and 311 00:14:47,240 --> 00:14:50,080 Speaker 6: then set up tents for them on Christmas Island. When 312 00:14:50,120 --> 00:14:53,320 Speaker 6: we were in government, I was a minister responsible for 313 00:14:53,720 --> 00:14:56,440 Speaker 6: getting every child out of detention, getting women out of detention. 314 00:14:57,200 --> 00:14:59,640 Speaker 6: And I didn't have a single person drown at sea 315 00:15:00,080 --> 00:15:01,960 Speaker 6: on my watch, and I'm. 316 00:15:01,840 --> 00:15:02,320 Speaker 5: Proud of that. 317 00:15:02,640 --> 00:15:05,840 Speaker 6: I've spoken to sailors and to members of the Australian 318 00:15:06,280 --> 00:15:08,960 Speaker 6: Border Force who pulled half eaten bodies out of the water, 319 00:15:09,320 --> 00:15:12,320 Speaker 6: including of children. Now I didn't have that on my watch. 320 00:15:12,360 --> 00:15:15,480 Speaker 6: I didn't allow it to restart, and I will do 321 00:15:15,520 --> 00:15:18,560 Speaker 6: everything to support Anthony ibneasy to make sure that it 322 00:15:18,600 --> 00:15:21,640 Speaker 6: doesn't restart, because that is a human tragy. 323 00:15:22,000 --> 00:15:23,400 Speaker 4: The final topic that I want to come to is 324 00:15:23,400 --> 00:15:25,280 Speaker 4: another thing that I asked the Prime Minister about, which 325 00:15:25,320 --> 00:15:27,680 Speaker 4: is what do you see as the traits that are 326 00:15:27,720 --> 00:15:29,640 Speaker 4: most important in a leader and how do you want 327 00:15:29,640 --> 00:15:31,080 Speaker 4: people to view your leadership. 328 00:15:31,160 --> 00:15:34,280 Speaker 6: Well, I think you need stability first and foremost. You 329 00:15:34,320 --> 00:15:37,080 Speaker 6: need people to see that you're a steady hand, particularly 330 00:15:37,120 --> 00:15:39,440 Speaker 6: in a time of crisis or a time of need, 331 00:15:39,480 --> 00:15:42,200 Speaker 6: when the nation needs its prime minister to stand up. 332 00:15:42,600 --> 00:15:47,920 Speaker 6: I think also a consistency around the commitments that you 333 00:15:48,000 --> 00:15:51,240 Speaker 6: give and delivering on those. You need to maintain the trust, 334 00:15:51,800 --> 00:15:54,440 Speaker 6: and you need to accept where you've got it wrong 335 00:15:54,480 --> 00:15:56,720 Speaker 6: and put your hand up on occasion to say that 336 00:15:56,760 --> 00:15:59,320 Speaker 6: I've made a mistake. I think you need to show 337 00:15:59,760 --> 00:16:02,520 Speaker 6: the human sight that you're a leader, that you're a father, 338 00:16:03,440 --> 00:16:08,120 Speaker 6: that you've had a diverse experience in life, and people 339 00:16:08,200 --> 00:16:09,960 Speaker 6: need that to be able to relate to you as well. 340 00:16:10,240 --> 00:16:12,240 Speaker 4: Do you have a negative perception to overcome there? I 341 00:16:12,320 --> 00:16:15,280 Speaker 4: mean opinion polls quite consistently paying a picture that a 342 00:16:15,280 --> 00:16:17,600 Speaker 4: lot of people have accumulated quite a negative image of you. 343 00:16:17,800 --> 00:16:18,440 Speaker 5: Why is that? 344 00:16:18,560 --> 00:16:20,680 Speaker 6: Well, look, my mum says to me, you know, you 345 00:16:20,680 --> 00:16:23,680 Speaker 6: should smile more when you're in front of a camera. 346 00:16:23,720 --> 00:16:24,320 Speaker 5: At fair point. 347 00:16:24,360 --> 00:16:26,880 Speaker 6: But if you're the Home Affairs minister and you're talking 348 00:16:26,880 --> 00:16:30,920 Speaker 6: about the levels of sexual abuse against kids, if you're 349 00:16:30,960 --> 00:16:36,960 Speaker 6: talking as Defense minister about an evacuation from a particular 350 00:16:37,400 --> 00:16:41,120 Speaker 6: village or a particular town or airport, they're not issues 351 00:16:41,160 --> 00:16:43,240 Speaker 6: that you can just sort of crack a joke over it. 352 00:16:43,360 --> 00:16:45,480 Speaker 4: I understand that, but does it go beyond that? I mean, 353 00:16:45,680 --> 00:16:48,400 Speaker 4: you recently apologize for boycotting the apology to the Stolen 354 00:16:48,440 --> 00:16:50,480 Speaker 4: Generations and acknowledge that that was something that you would 355 00:16:50,480 --> 00:16:52,480 Speaker 4: do differently. Are there more things of that nature and 356 00:16:52,520 --> 00:16:54,960 Speaker 4: actions that you've taken in public life that feed that perception? 357 00:16:55,640 --> 00:16:57,320 Speaker 6: Again, I think I've had tough jobs, and I think 358 00:16:57,320 --> 00:17:00,560 Speaker 6: I've had to deal with those tough jobs. I've done 359 00:17:00,600 --> 00:17:04,480 Speaker 6: that in the best interests of our country. And I 360 00:17:04,480 --> 00:17:08,080 Speaker 6: think as leader now and I mean, you see this, 361 00:17:08,400 --> 00:17:12,840 Speaker 6: the polling you refer to, the people's view of me, 362 00:17:12,960 --> 00:17:15,600 Speaker 6: I think has changed and softened just over the last 363 00:17:15,640 --> 00:17:18,760 Speaker 6: twelve months, and I think that'll continue because people can 364 00:17:18,800 --> 00:17:22,200 Speaker 6: see in a more holistic way who you are, your background, 365 00:17:23,280 --> 00:17:28,040 Speaker 6: the reason giving you life experiences, particularly around my time 366 00:17:28,080 --> 00:17:31,480 Speaker 6: as a police officer, and that's I suppose the opportunity 367 00:17:31,480 --> 00:17:34,880 Speaker 6: in this job is to show the whole product who 368 00:17:34,920 --> 00:17:38,359 Speaker 6: you are and what you've done in your life and 369 00:17:38,440 --> 00:17:39,560 Speaker 6: the way that's influenced you. 370 00:17:39,640 --> 00:17:42,720 Speaker 5: And I hope that people can reconsider on that basis. 371 00:17:43,040 --> 00:17:44,240 Speaker 4: Peter Dutton, thank you for your time. 372 00:17:44,280 --> 00:17:50,760 Speaker 2: Thanks Tom, thanks so much for listening to this very 373 00:17:50,800 --> 00:17:53,680 Speaker 2: special episode of TDA. We're going to be back again 374 00:17:53,720 --> 00:17:56,919 Speaker 2: as normal tomorrow. But in the meantime, if you haven't 375 00:17:56,920 --> 00:18:00,600 Speaker 2: listened to Tom's interview with PM Anthony Albernezi, we've left 376 00:18:00,600 --> 00:18:02,399 Speaker 2: that link in the show notes feed to listen to. 377 00:18:02,680 --> 00:18:04,720 Speaker 3: We're also going to add some extra links today to 378 00:18:05,000 --> 00:18:08,320 Speaker 3: other TDA posts and podcast episodes which provide a bit 379 00:18:08,359 --> 00:18:11,720 Speaker 3: more context on the discussion in this episode. And if 380 00:18:11,760 --> 00:18:14,320 Speaker 3: you or anyone you know needs help with issues relating 381 00:18:14,320 --> 00:18:16,840 Speaker 3: to family or domestic violence, you can call one eight 382 00:18:16,920 --> 00:18:20,160 Speaker 3: hundred respect on one eight hundred seven three seven seven 383 00:18:20,200 --> 00:18:23,679 Speaker 3: three two until tomorrow. Have a great day.