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Speaker 1: Hello. My name is doctor Justin Coulson, dad to six daughters,

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Speaker 1: author of six books about raising happy families, and when

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Speaker 1: I began researching for my book Misconnection, it became pretty clear,

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Speaker 1: very quickly that body image was an enormous issue between

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Speaker 1: and teen girls. In fact, for women generally. The anxiety

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Speaker 1: the body image causes our daughters is a byproduct of

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Speaker 1: the world we live in, where women are judged on

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Speaker 1: their appearance in a way that men simply don't experience. Well,

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Speaker 1: my guest today is doctor Renee Engeln. She's the author

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Speaker 1: of one of my favorite books, Beauty Sick, How the

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Speaker 1: cultural obsession with appearance hurts girls and women. Doctor Engeln

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Speaker 1: is a professor of psychology at Northwestern University in Illinois,

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Speaker 1: where she directs the Body and Media Lab. Renee's work

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Speaker 1: has been published in numerous academic journals, and she's a

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Speaker 1: regular contributor to The New York Times, the Chicago Tribune,

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Speaker 1: and the Huffington Post. Her ted X talk from the

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Speaker 1: University of Connecticut has racked up almost seven hundred thousand

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Speaker 1: views on YouTube. So when you finish this podcast, look

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Speaker 1: up that one as well. It's so worth watching and

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Speaker 1: make sure you grab a copy of Beauty Sick, How

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Speaker 1: the cultural obsession with appearance hurts girls and women. It's

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Speaker 1: a fabulous book when it comes to psychology and how

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Speaker 1: girls and women view their physical appearance. I don't think

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Speaker 1: that there's anyone more qualified than Professor Renee Engeln. I

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Speaker 1: began by asking her what work in family life looks

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Speaker 1: like for her.

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Speaker 2: Well, let's see, I'm a psychologist, I'm a buddy image researcher,

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Speaker 2: and I'm a professor at Northwestern University, which is in Evanston, Illinois,

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Speaker 2: just just north of Chicago, Illinois. And what else am I?

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Speaker 2: I'm an aunt to a wonderful niece and nephew who

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Speaker 2: came along kind of leader in my life, and that

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Speaker 2: has been an absolute joy.

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Speaker 3: There four and almost two.

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Speaker 1: Oh so they're really little. They're little.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, they're little.

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Speaker 2: And I've never I have to say this is going

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Speaker 2: to be a horrible thing to say on a podcast

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Speaker 2: focused on parenting, but I've never really liked babies. I

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Speaker 2: find them kind of terrifying and sticky, and they don't

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Speaker 2: hold their heads up, and they've always been scary. And

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Speaker 2: when I knew my brother was you know, he and

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Speaker 2: his wife were having children, I thought, what if I

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Speaker 2: don't love them?

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Speaker 3: But no I do.

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Speaker 2: I love them more than I thought it was possible

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Speaker 2: to love. So it's been full of joy and also

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Speaker 2: just interesting for me to learn how to connect with

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Speaker 2: these these little people that have been such a good

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Speaker 2: part of my life.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, I'm totally with you on the floppy neck thing that, Yeah,

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Speaker 1: that really bothers me. But for some reason, especially when

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Speaker 1: they you're blood. I mean babies generally, you know, you

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Speaker 1: see them in, they out, but when they blood, when

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Speaker 1: they related to you, there's something that happens, is there.

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Speaker 2: Everyone said it would feel different, and I didn't believe them,

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Speaker 2: but yeah, there's something powerful there that they're an extension

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Speaker 2: of my brother, my love so much and and you.

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Speaker 2: I've always been teased like I like tweens and teenagers.

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Speaker 2: So about the time that children really start to drive

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Speaker 2: their parents crazy, I'm always like, send them to me.

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Speaker 3: I got them, Like, I really like that.

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Speaker 2: I like their anger and their intensity and all that.

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Speaker 1: So you can say that. You can say that because

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Speaker 1: you're not the mum, right, The mums are like, ah,

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Speaker 1: that'll be the cool artie, this will be fun.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, send them to me. I have a number of

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Speaker 3: friends who say, will you talk to my daughter?

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Speaker 2: And I'm like, oh, yeah, Sana, Yeah, game on, tut

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Speaker 2: talk about how terrible you are.

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Speaker 1: Well, well, Renee, We're going to cover in this conversation

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Speaker 1: body image because that's your area, this is your absolute fascination,

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Speaker 1: and we're going to talk about how to fix the

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Speaker 1: youngest children right through to tweens, teens, and even adults.

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Speaker 1: The mums and dads who are participating in this conversation

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Speaker 1: and listen to what we have to say. So a

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Speaker 1: little over a year ago, I read a book that

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Speaker 1: it just absolutely captured me. I wrote it on my list.

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Speaker 1: I keep a spreadsheet of all the books that I

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Speaker 1: read each year. I'm a little bit. It's just because

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Speaker 1: my bookshelf's kind of full of books, and sometimes I

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Speaker 1: forget which ones that I loved and which ones I

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Speaker 1: didn't or what was in them. And so I've got

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Speaker 1: this spreadsheet where I title author, what did I give

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Speaker 1: it out of five, and a bit of a spiel

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Speaker 1: about how I enjoyed the book. I'm so glad you

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Speaker 1: think that's funny.

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Speaker 2: So anyway, my dear, I'm getting a live book review,

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Speaker 2: and the nerdiest way, ever, I like it.

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Speaker 1: This is who I am. Your book was a five

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Speaker 1: star book. It was pretty much my book of the year.

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Speaker 1: I think that one and a book by Todd Rose

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Speaker 1: from Harvard called The End of Average Was that were

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Speaker 1: my two books of I think it was twenty eighteen.

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Speaker 1: I just loved Beauty Sick, which is the name of

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Speaker 1: your book, Beauty Sick, and I gained a sense of

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Speaker 1: perspective that I just can't describe. So I'm a male,

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Speaker 1: I've never had the kinds of questions about my body

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Speaker 1: that you describe women experiencing. Now I haven't told you

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Speaker 1: something about me as well, and that is that my wife,

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Speaker 1: Kylie and I are the parents of six daughters.

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Speaker 3: Oh what are their age rangers?

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Speaker 1: Our eldest has moved out, she's married, she's in her

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Speaker 1: early twenties, and then we've got one who is finishing

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Speaker 1: her senior year of high school. She's about to be eighteen.

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Speaker 1: We've got one who's sixteen in grade ten, and then

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Speaker 1: we've got one in grade seven, one in grade five,

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Speaker 1: and our baby is in her first year of school.

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Speaker 3: Wow.

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Speaker 1: So all girls. So as I was reading your book,

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Speaker 1: I saw things in a new light. I just didn't

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Speaker 1: know that females felt the way you described when it

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Speaker 1: comes to their bodies and the pressure that they feel

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Speaker 1: around their bodies. Even with my wife, I never saw that. Now.

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Speaker 1: What's really interesting about that is when I first went

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Speaker 1: on a date with her, I think it was pretty

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Speaker 1: much our first proper date. We walked into a chicken

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Speaker 1: and chip shop. You don't really have them so much

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Speaker 1: in the United States. I've found where you buy the

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Speaker 1: barbecued chicken and a whole lot of hot you call

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Speaker 1: them fry, we call them chips. We've got these places everywhere.

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Speaker 1: We call them things like charcoal chicken. And so you

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Speaker 1: go in and you order your chicken, your chips, and

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Speaker 1: your salad or your chicken fries and salad, and it's

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Speaker 1: all really fresh, and go out and sit on the

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Speaker 1: beach and eat it or whatever it might be. So

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Speaker 1: I've walked in and I've ordered a chicken and a

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Speaker 1: couple of dollars worth of chips, and then I looked

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Speaker 1: at Kylie and I said, what do you got to order?

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Speaker 1: And she thought that was funny because she thought I

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Speaker 1: was going to share my chicken and chips with her,

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Speaker 1: and I was like, no, no, no, I'm eating the chicken

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Speaker 1: and the chips. What do you go to order? And

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Speaker 1: she said, for the first time in her life, she

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Speaker 1: was able to relax on a date because she could

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Speaker 1: see that I didn't care what she ate, because she

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Speaker 1: was never going to be able to eat even close

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Speaker 1: to what I ate. In fact, she said, it was

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Speaker 1: the first time she'd been on a date where she

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Speaker 1: ate more than a little bit of salad.

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Speaker 3: I'll just have a salad, right.

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Speaker 2: So many women they go home hungry and then they

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Speaker 2: eat in private afterwards.

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Speaker 1: And your book kind of opened up this world of

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Speaker 1: what it must be like to be female and to

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Speaker 1: be worried about body all the time. Now, as it happened,

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Speaker 1: as I was reading your book, I was writing a

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Speaker 1: book about teen girls, and it influenced the questions that

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Speaker 1: I asked them in the way that I was able

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Speaker 1: to write about their answers. And I found it just

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Speaker 1: so helpful and so extraordinary. But in the introduction of

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Speaker 1: your book, you state, and I quote, so many young

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Speaker 1: women today are strikingly bold in important areas of their lives,

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Speaker 1: but still crumble in front of the mirror. They fight

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Speaker 1: so hard to be treated with respect, but seem at

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Speaker 1: least at times, to be willing to trade it all

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Speaker 1: in an instant if they could only remake their physical appearance.

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Speaker 1: And then you give an answer to the question of

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Speaker 1: why that is, And this is an image for one

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Speaker 1: of a better word, or maybe it's the perfect word

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Speaker 1: that really sticks throughout the entire book. You say, quote,

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Speaker 1: we may no longer play dress ups and pose in

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Speaker 1: front of the mirror the way young girls do. But

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Speaker 1: I worry that's only because we've internalized that mirror, we

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Speaker 1: never actually left it behind. I mean, that is so powerful.

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Speaker 1: Can you talk about this idea that the mirror is

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Speaker 1: on the inside.

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Speaker 2: This is a This is a big paradox that I

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Speaker 2: think a lot of people are not sure how to

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Speaker 2: wrestle with because in many ways, we've been sold a

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Speaker 2: bill of goods.

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Speaker 3: Right.

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Speaker 2: We've got these generations of young women who are like,

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Speaker 2: I can do anything and I can be anything.

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Speaker 4: And what we've seen is a co optation of that

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Speaker 4: sense of power to sell them on beauty products and

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Speaker 4: diet plans and tutorials and this.

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Speaker 3: World that is completely obsessed with how they look.

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Speaker 2: And we've sold it as empowering, right, which is which

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Speaker 2: is insane and what happens is that we've gone from

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Speaker 2: having a culture that's always looking at women, that's always

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Speaker 2: commenting on how they look. We've gone from that, from

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Speaker 2: that coming from the outside to a point where we've

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Speaker 2: internalized it and we do that to ourselves. So I

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Speaker 2: try to stay away from academic jargon, but the there's

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Speaker 2: a term that I always need to use, even though

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Speaker 2: it's jargon, which is self objectification.

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Speaker 3: Right.

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Speaker 2: So the idea is if the world treats you like

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Speaker 2: an object long enough and with enough intensity that eventually

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Speaker 2: you see yourself that way. Right, You don't need to

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Speaker 2: be looking in the mirror because it's in your head,

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Speaker 2: and so you're always monitoring how you look. You're always aware.

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Speaker 2: It's distracting. It's distressing, right. It crops up in inopportune times.

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Speaker 2: It keeps you from living the life that's more consistent

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Speaker 2: with your values. So that's what I mean when I

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Speaker 2: say beauty sick, is that you've got that mirror stuck

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Speaker 2: in your head and it's causing you trouble and it's

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Speaker 2: not your fault. That's always the thing I want to say.

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Speaker 2: This is not something wrong with individual girls and women.

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Speaker 2: It's something wrong with our culture.

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Speaker 1: Well, let's start with the culture. In fact, no, we

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Speaker 1: might come to the cultural stuff in just a few seconds.

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Speaker 1: I want to talk about this beauty sickness. First of all,

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Speaker 1: let's talk about young children, young girls, because when I

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Speaker 1: was reading in Beauty sick you set the stage by

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Speaker 1: starting with the youngest about children. Let's say around age five,

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Speaker 1: and you cite some research that talks about how five

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Speaker 1: year olds feel about their bodies. Five year old girls.

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Speaker 2: There's a pretty large survey found that about thirty five

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Speaker 2: percent of five year old girls are already saying that

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Speaker 2: they at least sometimes engage in dietary restraint. Now, I

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Speaker 2: want to be clear that five year olds don't understand

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Speaker 2: what dieting actually is, right, So when a five year

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Speaker 2: old tells you that she's dieting, what she's telling you

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Speaker 2: is that she's already learned that this is what women do, right,

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Speaker 2: that this is part of being a grown up, this

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Speaker 2: is something you think about. All of these young girls

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Speaker 2: are already telling us close to third saying that they're

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Speaker 2: comparing their bodies to women and girls they see in

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Speaker 2: cartoons and movies and television programs. So they're at this

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Speaker 2: really young age where they're just learning to use their bodies.

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Speaker 2: I'm not a developmental psychologist by training. I focus mostly

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Speaker 2: on teenagers and adults. I don't I'm not super expert

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Speaker 2: about young children. So when I started writing this book,

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Speaker 2: I actually just did some basic research on the developmental

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Speaker 2: stages for children. And one of the things that really

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Speaker 2: threw me and I read about this in the book

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Speaker 2: is I asked, well, okay, well, what are five year

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Speaker 2: olds supposed to be doing? Like what marks where a

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Speaker 2: five year old is? And one of the things that

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Speaker 2: was listed was learning how to properly use utensils a

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Speaker 2: spoon and fork, And I thought, these are kids that

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Speaker 2: don't even necessarily know how to use a fork particularly well,

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Speaker 2: and they're already worried about dieting, hasn't even gotten great

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Speaker 2: at getting the food into their mouth yet, and they're

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Speaker 2: already trying to keep it out.

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Speaker 3: It's it's heartbreaking, right.

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Speaker 2: It suggests that what's happening is that a lot of

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Speaker 2: families are transmitting values to their young daughters that they

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Speaker 2: don't mean to transmit.

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Speaker 3: I think that's a lot of what's happening.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, and I appreciate what you've said there at the end,

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Speaker 1: that parents will intentioned and they don't even know very

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Speaker 1: often that these values are being passed on to the

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Speaker 1: next generation from that tiny, tiny age. I wonder how

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Speaker 1: much of it is children actually being unhappy with their

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Speaker 1: bodies versus just doing what they're seeing happen in the

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Speaker 1: environ Mum's always talking about the diet or Dad's always

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Speaker 1: talking about the diet, and so therefore I'm supposed to

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Speaker 1: be on a diet. I don't even know what a

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Speaker 1: diet is, but I remember when my little ones, and

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Speaker 1: in fact, I've got some video footage of my sisters.

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Speaker 1: I've got twin sisters who are a few years younger

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Speaker 1: than me, and I've got some really great footage of

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Speaker 1: them at about the age of four or five, and

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Speaker 1: they're running around the swimming pool. And the way I

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Speaker 1: describe it is they're running around. They're not wearing any

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Speaker 1: tops because they're only four or five, you know, they're little.

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Speaker 1: They've got their little bikini bottoms on or the little

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Speaker 1: you know, their little swimwear bottoms on, and they've got

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Speaker 1: what I would only describe as sticky addy tummies, because

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Speaker 1: you know how little kids, they've got the sticky addy

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Speaker 1: tummy and they're completely uninterested in what they look because

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Speaker 1: they look like because they're so absorbed in the moment.

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Speaker 1: They're so caught up in it, and I kind of think,

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Speaker 1: isn't that what it's supposed to be?

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Speaker 2: Yeah, it's I mean, my four year old niece loves

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Speaker 2: to show me. We talk only on FaceTime now because

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Speaker 2: we are still locked down due to COVID, but she

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Speaker 2: loves to lift up her shirt show me her stomach,

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Speaker 2: right and kind of like grab it and move it around.

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Speaker 2: And I get kind of sad already for the day that.

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Speaker 3: She's ashamed of her stomach.

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Speaker 2: And you might think, oh, that day won't necessarily come,

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Speaker 2: and I think, yeah, it will, right, We haven't.

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Speaker 3: We haven't really found a way to prevent that for

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Speaker 3: our girls. Yet.

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Speaker 2: It may not be all the time, and it may

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Speaker 2: that be that it may not be that bad, but

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Speaker 2: you can bet there's a really good shot that she's

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Speaker 2: going to become a tween, probably maybe not until a teen,

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Speaker 2: who doesn't like her stomach anymore. And so that joy

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Speaker 2: she has in her body now, I wish she could

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Speaker 2: keep it longer. I think it's it's it's amazing. It's

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Speaker 2: important too. In learning how to use your body without fear,

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Speaker 2: right and in learning how to really inhabit your body

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Speaker 2: as a doing thing instead of as an object. But

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Speaker 2: even parents who meanwhile are already tamping this down in

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Speaker 2: young girls that sort of bodily joy so partially with comments,

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Speaker 2: right when we say things like sit like a lady.

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Speaker 2: Partially And this is my big beef lately, by dressing

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Speaker 2: girls and clothing that doesn't allow them to move. If

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Speaker 2: this is a thing parents do, and I don't think

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Speaker 2: it's it's it comes from poor intensions at all, right,

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Speaker 2: But there's this temptation to put girls in in dresses

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Speaker 2: and tights and things that make it really hard to

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Speaker 2: crawl and jump. Are things that where you're more likely

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Speaker 2: to tell them to be careful, not to get dirty,

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Speaker 2: to sit nicely.

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Speaker 1: Just on that there's a there's a movement increasing in Australia.

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Speaker 1: So we, unlike America, all of our schools, almost all

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Speaker 1: of our schools insist that children wear a school uniform

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Speaker 1: to school. But what typically happens is the boys wearing

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Speaker 1: a shirt and shorts. The girls will in many cases

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Speaker 1: be wearing a dress, or they'll be wearing a skirt,

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Speaker 1: or they'll be wearing some item of clothing that makes

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Speaker 1: movement a little bit more restrictive if they want to

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Speaker 1: be I feel uncomfortable even saying the word now that

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Speaker 1: we're having this conversation, I was going to say, if

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Speaker 1: they want to be more boisterous, but let's change that too.

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Speaker 1: If they want to be more active, it's very, very

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Speaker 1: challenging for them to do that in a way that

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Speaker 1: would conserve a sense of modesty, because they're wearing dresses

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Speaker 1: and they don't want to be flashing their undies all

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Speaker 1: the backside to everybody. And so we've had this conversation

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Speaker 1: building in Australia over the last year two, maybe even

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Speaker 1: three years, where schools are now starting to recognize that

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Speaker 1: perhaps it's okay for girls to wear whatever they want,

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Speaker 1: including comfortable shorts, so long as it's within the school

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Speaker 1: uniform set up like this.

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Speaker 2: And why wouldn't it be okay the fact that we

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Speaker 2: have to have that.

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Speaker 1: Conversation, But so many are still saying, though, it's not okay.

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Speaker 1: This is our uniform and this is how we want

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Speaker 1: our girls to be. We want them to be demure

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Speaker 1: and lady like. Can you be lady like and wear shorts?

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Speaker 1: That's my question. I mean, I think you can.

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Speaker 3: What does lady like me?

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Speaker 2: And I mean ladylike means like a lady, And there

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Speaker 2: are all kinds of ladies out there, So I find

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Speaker 2: I find that whole phrase really problematic because what you're

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Speaker 2: teaching your girls when you say that is stay small, right,

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Speaker 2: don't take up space, don't move, don't don't learn to

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Speaker 2: use your body, don't stretch it, don't trust it. Instead,

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Speaker 2: from the beginning, think of your body in terms of

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Speaker 2: how it looks to other people. Does it look appropriate,

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Speaker 2: does it look modest? If you want them to look modest,

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Speaker 2: then put them in shorts so they can move however

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Speaker 2: they want. Right, And when you look at infants, I

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Speaker 2: guess when they're a little older they start to crawl.

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Speaker 2: It's actually quite hard for a lot of babies to

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Speaker 2: crawl in skirts and dresses. Right, And even that is

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Speaker 2: something we don't think about. I mean, just imagine it.

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Speaker 2: Imagine now trying to crawl in a dress versus pair

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Speaker 2: pants or pair of shorts.

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Speaker 3: Right.

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Speaker 2: So are how we dress girls in such a way

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Speaker 2: that requires constant and monitoring. It has a real impact

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Speaker 2: on how they grow up to feel about their bodies.

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Speaker 3: I want to come back to you your bodies for

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Speaker 3: other people.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Let's go back to the conversation

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Speaker 1: about children. Okay, So we started with five year olds

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Speaker 1: and how a third of them or just over a

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Speaker 1: third of them females. I'm guessing it wasn't the males

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Speaker 1: that wanted to change their bodies, by the way, it

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Speaker 1: was just the females that we're talking about the diet.

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Speaker 1: What happens as they get older? Can you talk me

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Speaker 1: through the next sort of ten to twelve years from

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Speaker 1: age five through to age seventeen eighteen.

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Speaker 2: So I'd say there's two big changes, right that happen.

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Speaker 2: One is the introduction to social media. Now, when that

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Speaker 2: happens depends on the kind of choices parents make and

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Speaker 2: what's going on with peers and things like that. But

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Speaker 2: it's often tweens we're looking at who are starting to

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Speaker 2: get into social media.

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Speaker 3: Which adds this additional mirror.

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Speaker 2: Right, you had the mirror in your head, and now

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Speaker 2: you have the mirror on your phone where you're taking

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Speaker 2: selfies and you're looking at yourself constantly, and you're editing them,

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Speaker 2: and you're scrolling through hundreds thousands of images a day

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Speaker 2: of other people, right, So that's just really turning up

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Speaker 2: the focus on appearance. So that's the first sort of

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Speaker 2: challenge that girls are running into at this age. And

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Speaker 2: then puberty hits, right, and the research around puberty is

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Speaker 2: so clear that it tends to make boys like their

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Speaker 2: bodies more right, It brings boys bodies more in line

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Speaker 2: with the ideal, tends to make them more muscular, broad

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Speaker 2: on their shoulders, get taller, things like that. But with girls,

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Speaker 2: because puberty tends to increase the amount of body fat

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Speaker 2: you have. Despite the fact that puberty is a sign

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Speaker 2: of them physically becoming adult women, it actually is moving

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Speaker 2: them farther from the body ideal for women. And there's

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Speaker 2: something really twisted and wrong about that. But this is

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Speaker 2: the time that we see a lot of girls start

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Speaker 2: to have very very significant struggles with body image, some

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Speaker 2: of which can turn.

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Speaker 3: Into eating disorders at this age.

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Speaker 2: And I think one of the most important findings for

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Speaker 2: me that's come out of the clinical psychology literature is

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Speaker 2: it's a study that was trying to understand why it

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Speaker 2: is that we see the gender gap and depression show

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Speaker 2: up in this sort of early adolescent place. You know,

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Speaker 2: until that point, both girls and boys get depressed about

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Speaker 2: the same rates, but once the girls get a little older,

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Speaker 2: it just starts to go up and up. Right, we

397
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Speaker 2: see this big gap, and there's pretty good evidence now

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Speaker 2: that part of where that gap comes from is girls worried.

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Speaker 2: Girls worries about their bodies, right, how their bodies look

400
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Speaker 2: to other people, how their faces look to other people.

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Speaker 3: Their appearance.

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Speaker 2: So it's really this time when body image concerns that

403
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Speaker 2: could have been a distraction can turn into something much bigger,

404
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Speaker 2: and I think it's something to really be on the

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Speaker 2: lookout for as parents.

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Speaker 1: The second most worried about issue in my study of girls,

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Speaker 1: and now this was not a university study. It was

408
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Speaker 1: a survey with a handful of interviews and some focus

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Speaker 1: groups with girls from my book Misconnection. Number one was

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Speaker 1: I wonder if you can guess what do you think

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Speaker 1: teenage girls? Number one issue was.

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Speaker 2: I'm a little biased, but right, my sense is that

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Speaker 2: one of the biggest issues is.

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Speaker 1: Body and so body image was number two.

415
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Speaker 2: So besides that, I would say relationships and.

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Speaker 1: Parenting, relationships with friends It was yeah, yeah, I'm worried

417
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Speaker 1: about my friends and how they see me in whether

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Speaker 1: I've got any. And what was fascinating about that was

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Speaker 1: so many of them linked their relationships with friends to

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Speaker 1: issues with appearance or you know, they wanted to be popular,

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Speaker 1: but to be popular, they had to be hot. You're like,

422
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Speaker 1: there's this explicit, unmissible link when you look at the

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Speaker 1: when you look at the comments from girls, it's it's

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Speaker 1: an undeniable link for so many of them that they

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Speaker 1: literally tie their value as a human being to their

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Speaker 1: physical appearance. And if I look good, then I'm a

427
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Speaker 1: valuable person. But if I don't look good, I'm worthless,

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Speaker 1: I'm nothing, and nobody will like me.

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Speaker 2: It would be incredibly hard for them to tie their

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Speaker 2: value to their appearance because that's what every cultural message

431
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Speaker 2: they get tells them to do. Right, that's what they've

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Speaker 2: been sold since they were young. Right, that their prettiness

433
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Speaker 2: and then as they get older, their sex appeal. Right,

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Speaker 2: that that is their source of worth. That that will

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Speaker 2: be the ticket to success in life. It will be

436
00:21:19,520 --> 00:21:24,360
Speaker 2: the ticket to a happy relationship, to good peer experiences. Right,

437
00:21:24,440 --> 00:21:28,080
Speaker 2: this is a lesson that we learn over and over again.

438
00:21:28,280 --> 00:21:30,959
Speaker 2: It's really hard not to internalize that.

439
00:21:31,520 --> 00:21:34,520
Speaker 1: And there's there's that halo effect where I mean there's

440
00:21:34,560 --> 00:21:38,639
Speaker 1: so much research on this. People who are attractive get

441
00:21:38,680 --> 00:21:42,480
Speaker 1: a on average, an easier ride in life. They're more

442
00:21:42,560 --> 00:21:45,040
Speaker 1: likely to escape speeding tickets when they get pulled over

443
00:21:45,080 --> 00:21:47,879
Speaker 1: by the police, They're more likely to be marked better

444
00:21:47,920 --> 00:21:51,520
Speaker 1: in an exam, they get a better ride. There's so

445
00:21:51,520 --> 00:21:54,240
Speaker 1: many studies in so many different contexts now that highlight

446
00:21:54,280 --> 00:21:57,080
Speaker 1: that physical appearance actually makes life easier.

447
00:21:57,880 --> 00:22:01,639
Speaker 2: I would never underestimate the sort of the goods you

448
00:22:01,680 --> 00:22:05,800
Speaker 2: get in exchange for being sort of consistent with our

449
00:22:05,880 --> 00:22:07,240
Speaker 2: culture's beauty ideals.

450
00:22:07,320 --> 00:22:08,639
Speaker 3: Right, you get a lot from that.

451
00:22:09,119 --> 00:22:13,440
Speaker 2: It's not all good, though, right You also get assumptions

452
00:22:13,480 --> 00:22:17,840
Speaker 2: that you're arrogant or that you're dumb sometimes right, that

453
00:22:17,880 --> 00:22:19,159
Speaker 2: you can't be smart and pretty.

454
00:22:19,520 --> 00:22:21,240
Speaker 3: And I've also talked to a lot of.

455
00:22:21,200 --> 00:22:24,399
Speaker 2: Young women who felt like, yeah, it was great to

456
00:22:24,400 --> 00:22:28,159
Speaker 2: be identified as pretty or beautiful, but over time you

457
00:22:28,200 --> 00:22:30,600
Speaker 2: start to wonder if that's not all you are. And

458
00:22:30,640 --> 00:22:32,560
Speaker 2: then I talk to women who are heading into their

459
00:22:32,560 --> 00:22:37,160
Speaker 2: thirties and forties who are terrified because they are well

460
00:22:37,240 --> 00:22:40,439
Speaker 2: aware of the power they got from being beautiful, and

461
00:22:40,480 --> 00:22:42,920
Speaker 2: they're also aware that it has an expiration date on it,

462
00:22:43,440 --> 00:22:47,920
Speaker 2: and they head into middle age thinking what's left? Right,

463
00:22:48,080 --> 00:22:49,800
Speaker 2: once this goes, what's left?

464
00:22:51,240 --> 00:22:54,800
Speaker 1: You should have quote from your grandpa.

465
00:22:55,119 --> 00:22:57,640
Speaker 2: Oh yes, I always worry about this because I don't

466
00:22:57,640 --> 00:22:58,959
Speaker 2: know if he made this up or if he got

467
00:22:59,000 --> 00:22:59,320
Speaker 2: it somewhere.

468
00:22:59,320 --> 00:23:01,399
Speaker 3: I couldn't find it online. But he always used to

469
00:23:01,440 --> 00:23:04,680
Speaker 3: tell me. He called me Nane, and he would say, Nana,

470
00:23:04,840 --> 00:23:07,440
Speaker 3: never be too proud of your youth or your beauty.

471
00:23:07,720 --> 00:23:09,919
Speaker 3: You did nothing to earn them, and you can do

472
00:23:10,000 --> 00:23:10,960
Speaker 3: nothing to keep them.

473
00:23:12,560 --> 00:23:14,879
Speaker 2: And I know it sounds sort of brutal, but I

474
00:23:14,920 --> 00:23:17,879
Speaker 2: never experienced it that way, right, what I as a

475
00:23:17,960 --> 00:23:20,520
Speaker 2: child growing up like that was his way of telling

476
00:23:20,640 --> 00:23:24,480
Speaker 2: us that, hey, this this this game was rigged. Right.

477
00:23:24,560 --> 00:23:26,800
Speaker 2: You might have gotten some privileges. You might have them now,

478
00:23:26,840 --> 00:23:28,520
Speaker 2: you're not going to have them forever, and you didn't

479
00:23:28,520 --> 00:23:31,480
Speaker 2: deserve them, you didn't earn them. Right, Be proud of

480
00:23:31,520 --> 00:23:35,119
Speaker 2: the things that you work for and build foundations for

481
00:23:35,200 --> 00:23:36,480
Speaker 2: your life that you can keep.

482
00:23:36,880 --> 00:23:39,440
Speaker 3: Right. That's I think the most important lesson there.

483
00:23:39,520 --> 00:23:41,840
Speaker 1: It's a little bit of tough love advance. But it's good.

484
00:23:42,000 --> 00:23:44,800
Speaker 1: I mean, it's really good. What's driving this though? So

485
00:23:45,359 --> 00:23:47,760
Speaker 1: can we point the finger any one main culprit?

486
00:23:48,160 --> 00:23:51,160
Speaker 2: So I don't think so you know, I'm not I'm

487
00:23:51,200 --> 00:23:54,840
Speaker 2: not interested in sort of bashing any one target.

488
00:23:54,880 --> 00:23:55,040
Speaker 1: Here.

489
00:23:55,160 --> 00:23:58,440
Speaker 3: What I see is this collection of forces.

490
00:23:58,720 --> 00:24:03,280
Speaker 2: You know, it's create this toxic stew that girls and

491
00:24:03,280 --> 00:24:04,520
Speaker 2: women are swimming around in.

492
00:24:05,400 --> 00:24:08,440
Speaker 3: And part of those forces we help a lot.

493
00:24:08,560 --> 00:24:11,840
Speaker 2: Right when we buy into the diet industry and the

494
00:24:11,840 --> 00:24:16,440
Speaker 2: beauty industry, Right when we follow people on Instagram who

495
00:24:16,560 --> 00:24:17,560
Speaker 2: do nothing but show us.

496
00:24:17,480 --> 00:24:20,000
Speaker 3: How beautiful they are. Right, would we encourage this kind

497
00:24:20,040 --> 00:24:21,160
Speaker 3: of thing? Sometimes?

498
00:24:20,840 --> 00:24:23,400
Speaker 1: Oh, you know what you've just reminded me. I saw

499
00:24:23,440 --> 00:24:25,199
Speaker 1: a picture of a dinner plate set for sale in

500
00:24:25,200 --> 00:24:28,639
Speaker 1: a store. I saw it was I couldn't believe what

501
00:24:28,680 --> 00:24:30,920
Speaker 1: I was reading on the plate. There are three circles. Okay,

502
00:24:30,960 --> 00:24:32,800
Speaker 1: so there's like an inner circle drawn on the plate.

503
00:24:32,840 --> 00:24:34,960
Speaker 1: Then there's a circle halfway along the plate, and then

504
00:24:35,000 --> 00:24:37,600
Speaker 1: there's a circle towards the outer rim of the plate.

505
00:24:37,960 --> 00:24:40,760
Speaker 1: And there was a name for each circle. The inner

506
00:24:40,800 --> 00:24:43,359
Speaker 1: circle which was you know, it was representative of the

507
00:24:43,359 --> 00:24:45,679
Speaker 1: smallest portion size you might put on that plate. The

508
00:24:45,720 --> 00:24:49,280
Speaker 1: inner circle said skinny jeans, the middle one said favorite jeans.

509
00:24:49,280 --> 00:24:51,199
Speaker 1: And then the largest circle, which you know, was out

510
00:24:51,280 --> 00:24:53,880
Speaker 1: near the rim taking up the whole plate, said mum jeans.

511
00:24:54,480 --> 00:24:57,640
Speaker 3: Oh, oh, what would way we treat mothers the way

512
00:24:57,680 --> 00:24:58,600
Speaker 3: we treat mothers?

513
00:24:58,720 --> 00:24:58,880
Speaker 1: Right?

514
00:24:59,240 --> 00:25:02,239
Speaker 2: I watched you know, since we've been sort of in

515
00:25:02,280 --> 00:25:05,720
Speaker 2: lockdown here, I've been watching maybe a little more Netflix

516
00:25:05,760 --> 00:25:06,320
Speaker 2: than I should.

517
00:25:06,760 --> 00:25:09,240
Speaker 3: And I stumbled across this show that i've It's called

518
00:25:09,280 --> 00:25:10,760
Speaker 3: The Baker and the Beauty.

519
00:25:11,160 --> 00:25:13,760
Speaker 2: It was just this little like families sitcom, and there's

520
00:25:13,800 --> 00:25:15,760
Speaker 2: a young woman in it who has this line because

521
00:25:15,760 --> 00:25:18,720
Speaker 2: she's pressuring her boyfriend to get married, and she said,

522
00:25:18,880 --> 00:25:19,520
Speaker 2: I'm a woman.

523
00:25:19,640 --> 00:25:20,480
Speaker 3: This is what we do.

524
00:25:20,840 --> 00:25:24,560
Speaker 2: We diet, we get married, we have children, and then

525
00:25:24,600 --> 00:25:28,880
Speaker 2: we diet again. And I was just oh, So there

526
00:25:28,920 --> 00:25:30,840
Speaker 2: was just a silly little show, right, But there was

527
00:25:30,880 --> 00:25:34,120
Speaker 2: something about that line. It's like, Yeah, for a lot

528
00:25:34,119 --> 00:25:36,280
Speaker 2: of women, that's their life, right. You become a mom

529
00:25:36,560 --> 00:25:38,760
Speaker 2: and then you diet because you're allowed to be a mom,

530
00:25:39,000 --> 00:25:39,480
Speaker 2: but you're not.

531
00:25:39,440 --> 00:25:40,520
Speaker 3: Allowed to look like a mom.

532
00:25:41,040 --> 00:25:41,200
Speaker 2: Right.

533
00:25:41,240 --> 00:25:45,120
Speaker 3: This this pressure to have the body of a twenty

534
00:25:45,160 --> 00:25:46,399
Speaker 3: year old for the rest of your.

535
00:25:46,240 --> 00:25:51,800
Speaker 2: Life, It's it's insane, right, It's it's a pressure that

536
00:25:51,840 --> 00:25:55,640
Speaker 2: has gotten absolutely worse over the years. There's not great

537
00:25:55,760 --> 00:25:57,239
Speaker 2: data on it, but I've talked to a lot of

538
00:25:57,880 --> 00:26:00,800
Speaker 2: practitioners who treat women with eating disorders, and they said

539
00:26:01,280 --> 00:26:04,200
Speaker 2: they're seeing something kind of unusual, which is like the

540
00:26:04,680 --> 00:26:09,160
Speaker 2: onset of anorexia is showing up in the thirties and forties,

541
00:26:09,600 --> 00:26:12,119
Speaker 2: just not something you typically see. Anorexia can last a

542
00:26:12,200 --> 00:26:14,320
Speaker 2: very long time, but it tends to start much earlier

543
00:26:14,359 --> 00:26:14,720
Speaker 2: than that.

544
00:26:15,480 --> 00:26:16,680
Speaker 3: And some of that is tied to.

545
00:26:16,680 --> 00:26:20,600
Speaker 2: The sense that that women are feeling this pressure to

546
00:26:20,680 --> 00:26:23,800
Speaker 2: do everything they can, right to not look like someone

547
00:26:23,800 --> 00:26:27,240
Speaker 2: who would wear mom jeans, right to have the skinny

548
00:26:27,320 --> 00:26:30,200
Speaker 2: jeans forever, to get botox, to get fillers, to color

549
00:26:30,200 --> 00:26:32,480
Speaker 2: your hair, to go to ten workout classes a week,

550
00:26:32,560 --> 00:26:34,120
Speaker 2: to constantly watch what you eat.

551
00:26:35,080 --> 00:26:36,760
Speaker 3: It's brutal. It's brutal.

552
00:26:36,800 --> 00:26:39,159
Speaker 2: There's got to be more to life than diet. Do

553
00:26:39,280 --> 00:26:41,720
Speaker 2: some things and then diet again. Right, They're just has

554
00:26:41,800 --> 00:26:42,000
Speaker 2: to be.

555
00:26:43,480 --> 00:26:45,840
Speaker 1: Yeah, I'm so curious. I know that I kind of

556
00:26:45,840 --> 00:26:47,840
Speaker 1: interrupted you when I asked that initial question of what's

557
00:26:48,320 --> 00:26:50,600
Speaker 1: creating it? What is the culprit? And now you say,

558
00:26:51,040 --> 00:26:53,800
Speaker 1: there's no one thing. There's this toxic stew. But I

559
00:26:53,800 --> 00:26:56,000
Speaker 1: wonder if we could actually name them. So we've got

560
00:26:56,040 --> 00:26:59,640
Speaker 1: we've got dinner plates, the rainforce, this and We've always

561
00:26:59,640 --> 00:27:02,200
Speaker 1: think of the media and the social media, and but

562
00:27:02,400 --> 00:27:05,199
Speaker 1: but are they more insidious things as well? Are there

563
00:27:05,240 --> 00:27:06,400
Speaker 1: things that we don't even know.

564
00:27:06,680 --> 00:27:10,199
Speaker 2: That it Well, there's the beauty industry and the diet industry,

565
00:27:10,320 --> 00:27:15,000
Speaker 2: which are billions of dollars a year. They're incredibly powerful,

566
00:27:15,240 --> 00:27:19,439
Speaker 2: and they only make money if you feel unattractive, right there.

567
00:27:19,600 --> 00:27:23,919
Speaker 2: These are products like that you'll only keep buying if they.

568
00:27:23,800 --> 00:27:26,280
Speaker 3: Don't work, right. The power of.

569
00:27:26,240 --> 00:27:32,360
Speaker 2: These industries to capitalize on women's vulnerability is really breathtaking.

570
00:27:32,680 --> 00:27:35,919
Speaker 2: I can't tell you how many smart, educated with it

571
00:27:36,080 --> 00:27:38,919
Speaker 2: women will still say things like I swear for just

572
00:27:38,960 --> 00:27:41,720
Speaker 2: a moment, I thought that mascara was going to change

573
00:27:41,720 --> 00:27:44,960
Speaker 2: my life, right, Like, you just really get sold this

574
00:27:45,040 --> 00:27:46,960
Speaker 2: bill of goods, that this next thing is going to

575
00:27:47,040 --> 00:27:50,040
Speaker 2: make it all okay, right, and that the only way

576
00:27:50,080 --> 00:27:53,320
Speaker 2: you're ever going to feel like enough is if you

577
00:27:53,400 --> 00:27:56,040
Speaker 2: can look like a fitness model or look like that

578
00:27:56,160 --> 00:27:57,640
Speaker 2: influencer on Instagram.

579
00:27:58,720 --> 00:28:02,040
Speaker 3: It's it's it's hard to see several.

580
00:28:01,640 --> 00:28:05,480
Speaker 2: Generations of women now never feeling like they're going to

581
00:28:05,480 --> 00:28:05,920
Speaker 2: be enough.

582
00:28:06,320 --> 00:28:06,480
Speaker 3: Right.

583
00:28:07,119 --> 00:28:09,200
Speaker 2: That's a really hard thing for me to look at,

584
00:28:09,320 --> 00:28:12,840
Speaker 2: and it's really hard for me when I find out

585
00:28:12,960 --> 00:28:15,840
Speaker 2: that even some grown women who are my heroes still

586
00:28:15,840 --> 00:28:19,600
Speaker 2: feel that way. Right, that's a really hard thing to hear.

587
00:28:19,720 --> 00:28:21,200
Speaker 2: I have people ask all the time, like, where did

588
00:28:21,200 --> 00:28:23,720
Speaker 2: you find all these women with body image issues to

589
00:28:24,240 --> 00:28:26,679
Speaker 2: talk to you for your book? And I was like,

590
00:28:26,680 --> 00:28:29,720
Speaker 2: I don't understand the question, right, I just found women.

591
00:28:30,359 --> 00:28:33,399
Speaker 3: I didn't look for women with body issues. Just found women,

592
00:28:33,520 --> 00:28:35,360
Speaker 3: and I talked to them about their bodies. It's all

593
00:28:35,400 --> 00:28:36,000
Speaker 3: you need to do.

594
00:28:43,960 --> 00:28:51,320
Speaker 1: So young girls, tween girls, teen girls, young women, moms,

595
00:28:51,600 --> 00:28:56,440
Speaker 1: adult women, retirees. I'm guessing that this is just a

596
00:28:56,480 --> 00:29:01,680
Speaker 1: pervisive thing. And again, just to emphasize, it's not a

597
00:29:01,680 --> 00:29:04,280
Speaker 1: man thing. In fact, let me read something. I wish

598
00:29:04,320 --> 00:29:06,440
Speaker 1: I could read your entire book to you so that

599
00:29:06,440 --> 00:29:07,920
Speaker 1: I could take now tell me about this now, but

600
00:29:08,200 --> 00:29:11,360
Speaker 1: let me just read this. This was in a chapter

601
00:29:11,400 --> 00:29:15,920
Speaker 1: that you titled just Like a Woman, and I've underlined

602
00:29:15,960 --> 00:29:18,520
Speaker 1: Neliber whole chapter. But I just want to read this

603
00:29:18,560 --> 00:29:21,600
Speaker 1: bit to you. You said, think about it in this way.

604
00:29:21,720 --> 00:29:24,200
Speaker 1: If I told you that someone in the United States

605
00:29:24,400 --> 00:29:25,880
Speaker 1: was about to go under the knife in the hopes

606
00:29:25,880 --> 00:29:28,520
Speaker 1: of reshaping their appearance, you could bet it was a

607
00:29:28,520 --> 00:29:32,200
Speaker 1: woman and be correct. Around ninety percent of the time. Internationally,

608
00:29:32,240 --> 00:29:34,840
Speaker 1: eighty five to ninety percent of surgical and non surgical

609
00:29:34,880 --> 00:29:38,680
Speaker 1: cosmetic procedures are performed on women. If you heard that

610
00:29:38,720 --> 00:29:41,520
Speaker 1: a young person was suffering from anorexia or bolimia, I

611
00:29:41,520 --> 00:29:43,160
Speaker 1: guess it was a young woman. You'd be right nine

612
00:29:43,160 --> 00:29:45,520
Speaker 1: times out of ten. Eating disorders and plastic surgery of

613
00:29:45,560 --> 00:29:48,280
Speaker 1: both complex issues. But we can't ignore gender gaps like these.

614
00:29:48,560 --> 00:29:51,440
Speaker 1: They forced us to acknowledge that men's and women's experience

615
00:29:51,520 --> 00:29:55,360
Speaker 1: in this culture are vastly different in important ways. Men

616
00:29:55,400 --> 00:29:58,080
Speaker 1: and women are living systematically different lives when it comes

617
00:29:58,080 --> 00:30:01,440
Speaker 1: to beauty sickness. Read a couple more lines from this

618
00:30:01,720 --> 00:30:04,400
Speaker 1: particular area. I know it's probably boring to you because

619
00:30:04,400 --> 00:30:07,200
Speaker 1: you wrote it, but it just it's so compelling. Women

620
00:30:07,320 --> 00:30:09,720
Speaker 1: talk about how they look more than men do. They

621
00:30:09,720 --> 00:30:11,920
Speaker 1: think about how they look more than men do, and

622
00:30:11,960 --> 00:30:14,160
Speaker 1: they're more likely than men to engage in behaviors to

623
00:30:14,240 --> 00:30:17,760
Speaker 1: alter or improve their appearance. There's a reason no one

624
00:30:17,880 --> 00:30:21,000
Speaker 1: in this culture would be surprised to overhear a woman

625
00:30:21,120 --> 00:30:24,480
Speaker 1: saying I feel so fat and ugly. Today, we accept

626
00:30:24,520 --> 00:30:27,480
Speaker 1: this type of unhappiness as part of being a woman.

627
00:30:28,160 --> 00:30:32,000
Speaker 1: Over thirty years ago, researchers coined the phrase normative discontent

628
00:30:32,560 --> 00:30:35,640
Speaker 1: to describe the phenomenon. The term suggests that we've gotten

629
00:30:35,680 --> 00:30:38,760
Speaker 1: to a place where it's considered normal for girls or

630
00:30:38,800 --> 00:30:41,320
Speaker 1: women to be deeply disappointed when they look in the mirror.

631
00:30:41,520 --> 00:30:44,520
Speaker 1: It's the girl version of boys will be boys.

632
00:30:46,960 --> 00:30:49,960
Speaker 3: Hey, this is the first question I always get. Right,

633
00:30:50,320 --> 00:30:51,840
Speaker 3: if I go speak.

634
00:30:51,520 --> 00:30:54,600
Speaker 2: To any kind of group about this topic, Almost always

635
00:30:54,600 --> 00:30:56,160
Speaker 2: the first question I get is what about men?

636
00:30:56,240 --> 00:30:59,640
Speaker 3: What about boys? And So I always want to be

637
00:30:59,680 --> 00:31:00,960
Speaker 3: clear that boys and men.

638
00:31:00,800 --> 00:31:03,640
Speaker 2: Can absolutely have these struggles too, Right, they can happen

639
00:31:03,680 --> 00:31:09,600
Speaker 2: to any gender, But that doesn't mean that boys and

640
00:31:09,600 --> 00:31:11,520
Speaker 2: girls and men and women are living in the same

641
00:31:11,560 --> 00:31:12,600
Speaker 2: world when it comes.

642
00:31:12,360 --> 00:31:13,000
Speaker 3: To these issues.

643
00:31:13,120 --> 00:31:14,080
Speaker 1: So it's different for me.

644
00:31:14,240 --> 00:31:16,200
Speaker 3: Yes, yes, it can happen.

645
00:31:16,280 --> 00:31:19,160
Speaker 2: And I also I'm not arguing that it's easy to

646
00:31:19,200 --> 00:31:22,360
Speaker 2: be a man either, Right. I think there are pressures

647
00:31:22,360 --> 00:31:26,280
Speaker 2: that hit men differentially. So, for example, the pressure to

648
00:31:26,320 --> 00:31:28,480
Speaker 2: make a lot of money, to be powerful, to have

649
00:31:28,600 --> 00:31:31,960
Speaker 2: high status. Right, that is a pressure, a burden that

650
00:31:32,040 --> 00:31:35,040
Speaker 2: men bear much more than women do.

651
00:31:35,320 --> 00:31:35,480
Speaker 3: Right.

652
00:31:35,480 --> 00:31:37,200
Speaker 2: I think in some ways women are given more freedom

653
00:31:37,280 --> 00:31:41,320
Speaker 2: in those respects. But I don't think we can argue

654
00:31:41,320 --> 00:31:44,160
Speaker 2: that that men and women are facing the same reality

655
00:31:44,200 --> 00:31:47,760
Speaker 2: when it comes to a parent's focus and so. But

656
00:31:47,840 --> 00:31:50,080
Speaker 2: part of the issue is I study women and girls.

657
00:31:50,160 --> 00:31:52,640
Speaker 2: That's what I do, right, so that that is my focus.

658
00:31:53,080 --> 00:31:55,600
Speaker 2: There are people who focus on body image and men

659
00:31:55,640 --> 00:31:58,040
Speaker 2: and boys who are doing excellent work. So I don't

660
00:31:58,080 --> 00:32:00,200
Speaker 2: mean to imply that that's not important and not out there.

661
00:32:00,680 --> 00:32:05,680
Speaker 2: But what fascinates me is as a culture, this set

662
00:32:05,720 --> 00:32:08,480
Speaker 2: of rules that women are just by and large expected

663
00:32:08,520 --> 00:32:11,600
Speaker 2: to follow without question, that we would never ask men

664
00:32:11,640 --> 00:32:14,200
Speaker 2: to follow. Can you imagine if we ask men to

665
00:32:14,280 --> 00:32:18,880
Speaker 2: wear high heels or something equally uncomfortable and you know,

666
00:32:19,000 --> 00:32:21,040
Speaker 2: inefficient when it came to walking.

667
00:32:21,040 --> 00:32:22,920
Speaker 1: Or even to remove the hair from their bodies.

668
00:32:23,640 --> 00:32:25,920
Speaker 2: Yeah, And people say, well some men wax, and I

669
00:32:25,960 --> 00:32:29,640
Speaker 2: say absolutely right. But if you look at waxing salons,

670
00:32:29,800 --> 00:32:32,200
Speaker 2: they'll say here's our waxing menu, and then there'll be

671
00:32:32,240 --> 00:32:35,080
Speaker 2: a little part that says men's services, right, So they're

672
00:32:35,120 --> 00:32:39,280
Speaker 2: even telling you there there's a differentiation there. It's not

673
00:32:39,840 --> 00:32:42,480
Speaker 2: the norm for men the way it is for women,

674
00:32:43,400 --> 00:32:46,320
Speaker 2: at least not for straight guys, right. I do think

675
00:32:46,320 --> 00:32:49,520
Speaker 2: that sexual minority men face a greater degree of pressure

676
00:32:49,560 --> 00:32:54,800
Speaker 2: on this front. But it's everywhere built into our culture, right.

677
00:32:54,840 --> 00:32:57,200
Speaker 3: You hear it from the minute we start talking about infants,

678
00:32:57,240 --> 00:32:59,640
Speaker 3: when we say such a pretty girl, such a pretty girl.

679
00:33:00,080 --> 00:33:01,640
Speaker 3: Oh look at the strong boy.

680
00:33:02,400 --> 00:33:07,640
Speaker 2: Right. It starts very young that we think about women's bodies,

681
00:33:07,680 --> 00:33:11,960
Speaker 2: about their physicality as existing to be looked at, right,

682
00:33:12,040 --> 00:33:14,080
Speaker 2: instead of as existing to do things.

683
00:33:14,880 --> 00:33:17,960
Speaker 1: You know, I just remembered the story one of the

684
00:33:18,000 --> 00:33:20,479
Speaker 1: guys that is a TV host for one of our

685
00:33:20,520 --> 00:33:25,400
Speaker 1: major breakfast programs nationwide around Australia. His name is Karl Stefanovic,

686
00:33:25,920 --> 00:33:29,160
Speaker 1: and a few years ago there was a big media

687
00:33:29,480 --> 00:33:33,560
Speaker 1: storm when he stepped forward and said, guess what, I

688
00:33:33,600 --> 00:33:36,520
Speaker 1: haven't changed my suit for a year. I've worn the

689
00:33:36,520 --> 00:33:40,880
Speaker 1: same suit and tie every single day on the television

690
00:33:40,880 --> 00:33:45,440
Speaker 1: for an entire year, and nobody's noticed. I've not received

691
00:33:45,440 --> 00:33:48,280
Speaker 1: one single email. I've not received one single comment on

692
00:33:48,320 --> 00:33:50,800
Speaker 1: social media. Nobody's said a word about the fact that

693
00:33:50,840 --> 00:33:52,920
Speaker 1: I've been wearing exactly the same suit and tie and

694
00:33:52,920 --> 00:33:58,320
Speaker 1: the white shirt for a year. But he stepped out

695
00:33:58,360 --> 00:34:00,640
Speaker 1: and said it that day, because that's same day his

696
00:34:00,720 --> 00:34:02,120
Speaker 1: co host, who at the time was a lady, called

697
00:34:02,160 --> 00:34:05,680
Speaker 1: Lisa Wilkinson. That day, she had been absolutely slammed with

698
00:34:05,800 --> 00:34:08,440
Speaker 1: hundreds of comments because people didn't like the clothing that

699
00:34:08,480 --> 00:34:10,560
Speaker 1: she wore on the television that day. And this was

700
00:34:10,600 --> 00:34:13,919
Speaker 1: a this was a regular occurrence. This happens all the time.

701
00:34:14,200 --> 00:34:16,759
Speaker 1: Because I'm on the TV. I'm following a bunch of

702
00:34:17,840 --> 00:34:21,480
Speaker 1: Instagram accounts for the TV hosts that I'm interviewed by

703
00:34:21,600 --> 00:34:23,799
Speaker 1: or that I work with from time to time, and

704
00:34:23,880 --> 00:34:26,560
Speaker 1: whenever they post any pictures of them, the threads are

705
00:34:26,719 --> 00:34:29,480
Speaker 1: full of comment after comment after comment of how beautiful

706
00:34:29,480 --> 00:34:31,439
Speaker 1: they are. Now, they're not posting anything about their looks,

707
00:34:31,480 --> 00:34:33,839
Speaker 1: they're not trying to look snazzy. They're simply saying I'm

708
00:34:33,840 --> 00:34:36,719
Speaker 1: here doing this gig, or I'm at home with the kids,

709
00:34:36,800 --> 00:34:40,040
Speaker 1: or here's what I cooked for dinner. And nevertheless, all

710
00:34:40,040 --> 00:34:42,000
Speaker 1: the comments are about their physical appearance. It's almost like

711
00:34:42,000 --> 00:34:43,759
Speaker 1: people feel compelled to say something they don't know what

712
00:34:43,800 --> 00:34:45,880
Speaker 1: to say, and so they comment on their looks. But

713
00:34:45,920 --> 00:34:48,720
Speaker 1: I can tell you I've never posted a picture, ever

714
00:34:48,840 --> 00:34:51,360
Speaker 1: posted a picture on my Instagram or on my Facebook

715
00:34:51,360 --> 00:34:55,120
Speaker 1: where people have chosen to make the majority of the

716
00:34:55,120 --> 00:34:58,279
Speaker 1: commentary about my physical appearance. Never happened. I mean, I

717
00:34:58,320 --> 00:34:59,879
Speaker 1: know that I'm not the most attractive guy in the world.

718
00:35:00,120 --> 00:35:02,560
Speaker 1: It's never ever happened. And I don't care that I'm

719
00:35:02,600 --> 00:35:04,000
Speaker 1: not the most attractive going in the world. I don't

720
00:35:04,040 --> 00:35:06,120
Speaker 1: have to be brad Pit. People don't value me for

721
00:35:06,239 --> 00:35:08,359
Speaker 1: my appearents. They value me for the work that I do.

722
00:35:09,320 --> 00:35:11,719
Speaker 3: It's a super awkward place to be.

723
00:35:11,920 --> 00:35:14,319
Speaker 2: I have to tell you I can, I can go

724
00:35:14,440 --> 00:35:16,959
Speaker 2: somewhere to do a TV segment or give a talk

725
00:35:17,160 --> 00:35:20,120
Speaker 2: on this topic, and often the first thing people will

726
00:35:20,120 --> 00:35:23,800
Speaker 2: say to me is something about how I look, even

727
00:35:24,040 --> 00:35:25,320
Speaker 2: in that moment.

728
00:35:25,560 --> 00:35:26,719
Speaker 3: Right, it still happens.

729
00:35:26,880 --> 00:35:30,520
Speaker 2: I have an author Instagram account, which I'm not particularly

730
00:35:30,520 --> 00:35:32,160
Speaker 2: good at. I don't know how to do stories, et cetera,

731
00:35:32,200 --> 00:35:35,680
Speaker 2: et cetera. But I almost never post a picture of myself.

732
00:35:35,960 --> 00:35:39,040
Speaker 2: I'm not interested. I'm not interested in people's commentary. I'm

733
00:35:39,040 --> 00:35:41,239
Speaker 2: not interested in those moments where I have to worry

734
00:35:41,280 --> 00:35:43,279
Speaker 2: about how I look as I'm taking that picture, and

735
00:35:43,320 --> 00:35:45,080
Speaker 2: what's my hair doing and should I filter it or

736
00:35:45,080 --> 00:35:46,160
Speaker 2: should I not filter it.

737
00:35:47,520 --> 00:35:49,600
Speaker 3: I just don't do it right. But that's a power

738
00:35:49,680 --> 00:35:51,319
Speaker 3: I have to be able to opt out.

739
00:35:51,560 --> 00:35:54,759
Speaker 2: There are many people in jobs that can't opt out right,

740
00:35:54,880 --> 00:35:59,360
Speaker 2: like a woman working in news. It's an image focused profession.

741
00:36:00,080 --> 00:36:02,200
Speaker 2: There are there's a journalist I wrote about her a

742
00:36:02,200 --> 00:36:05,960
Speaker 2: little bit in Beauty Sick, Heidi Stevens the Chicago Tribune locally,

743
00:36:06,040 --> 00:36:08,120
Speaker 2: who's got very curly hair, like, that's it, it's just

744
00:36:08,160 --> 00:36:11,520
Speaker 2: curly hair. And she could write a column every year

745
00:36:11,560 --> 00:36:14,560
Speaker 2: with a collection of little hate mail she gets about

746
00:36:14,560 --> 00:36:17,000
Speaker 2: her hair, right, like, how can you leave your hair

747
00:36:17,040 --> 00:36:17,239
Speaker 2: like that?

748
00:36:17,280 --> 00:36:18,960
Speaker 3: Your hair is a rat nest? How could you do that?

749
00:36:18,960 --> 00:36:21,640
Speaker 3: That's so unprofessional? And she's not even on TV.

750
00:36:22,040 --> 00:36:24,320
Speaker 2: This is all just based on that little thumbnail picture

751
00:36:24,360 --> 00:36:27,239
Speaker 2: that you see next to a columnist. Wow, So just

752
00:36:27,320 --> 00:36:30,480
Speaker 2: imagine how that get gets turned up, right, And when

753
00:36:30,520 --> 00:36:33,120
Speaker 2: you're a woman in the public eye, and I have

754
00:36:33,160 --> 00:36:37,000
Speaker 2: to wonder all the time how many women would seek

755
00:36:37,080 --> 00:36:41,120
Speaker 2: out jobs, careers, volunteer opportunities in the public eye but

756
00:36:41,239 --> 00:36:43,400
Speaker 2: choose not to because they don't want that kind of

757
00:36:43,400 --> 00:36:46,920
Speaker 2: scrutiny about their parents. I think that's happening more than

758
00:36:46,920 --> 00:36:47,600
Speaker 2: we talk about.

759
00:36:47,760 --> 00:36:51,040
Speaker 1: And your research shows that the cost to women in

760
00:36:51,120 --> 00:36:55,800
Speaker 1: terms of opportunity, which is what you've just described, is huge.

761
00:36:55,800 --> 00:36:57,960
Speaker 1: But it's not just that cost. It's the cost in

762
00:36:58,080 --> 00:37:00,440
Speaker 1: terms of the time. You know, when I've got to

763
00:37:00,440 --> 00:37:03,479
Speaker 1: go and do a TV spot. I walk in. They

764
00:37:04,480 --> 00:37:06,680
Speaker 1: throw a little bit of makeupy sort of stuff on

765
00:37:06,800 --> 00:37:09,000
Speaker 1: my face. It takes about a minute and a half. Yeah,

766
00:37:09,000 --> 00:37:10,880
Speaker 1: they go. I don't know what it is, but they

767
00:37:10,880 --> 00:37:12,920
Speaker 1: put some stuff on my face, which I remove as

768
00:37:12,960 --> 00:37:14,840
Speaker 1: soon as I'm off the TV. I get those facial

769
00:37:14,840 --> 00:37:16,799
Speaker 1: wipes and get rid of it. But I'm in and

770
00:37:16,840 --> 00:37:19,360
Speaker 1: out within about a minute and a half. They have

771
00:37:19,400 --> 00:37:20,759
Speaker 1: a look at my hair and say, oh, that's fine.

772
00:37:20,800 --> 00:37:23,520
Speaker 1: They don't even sit me in the chair. Whereas the

773
00:37:23,600 --> 00:37:26,960
Speaker 1: women who I'm often appearing on the television with, they'll

774
00:37:26,960 --> 00:37:29,759
Speaker 1: have to be there at least an hour ahead of

775
00:37:29,760 --> 00:37:32,240
Speaker 1: the segment. I stroll in fifteen minutes before the segment.

776
00:37:32,280 --> 00:37:34,600
Speaker 1: I'm in, I'm out, I'm done there at least an

777
00:37:34,640 --> 00:37:36,560
Speaker 1: hour before they're getting their head done. They're spending all

778
00:37:36,560 --> 00:37:39,279
Speaker 1: that time, that time that they could be reading a book,

779
00:37:39,360 --> 00:37:40,839
Speaker 1: or that time that they could be responding to him,

780
00:37:40,840 --> 00:37:43,120
Speaker 1: all that time that they could be building their strategic

781
00:37:43,160 --> 00:37:45,480
Speaker 1: plan for their business. And it's all of that money

782
00:37:45,480 --> 00:37:47,040
Speaker 1: that they've got to spend. I don't spend money on

783
00:37:47,080 --> 00:37:50,440
Speaker 1: my appearance, but women are expected to spend money on

784
00:37:51,239 --> 00:37:53,319
Speaker 1: the mascara that's going to change their life that you

785
00:37:53,360 --> 00:37:53,840
Speaker 1: mentioned for.

786
00:37:54,480 --> 00:37:57,120
Speaker 2: Just the basics, just the basic grooming. Now you're supposed

787
00:37:57,160 --> 00:38:00,959
Speaker 2: to get eyelashes glued on to your eyelash is once

788
00:38:01,000 --> 00:38:02,719
Speaker 2: a month so that it can save you time and

789
00:38:02,840 --> 00:38:03,879
Speaker 2: not having to wear a mask.

790
00:38:03,920 --> 00:38:04,080
Speaker 3: Here.

791
00:38:04,760 --> 00:38:07,640
Speaker 2: I used to get my nails done, and not only

792
00:38:07,680 --> 00:38:09,680
Speaker 2: did I get my nails done, but I got them

793
00:38:09,719 --> 00:38:13,240
Speaker 2: done like clear, so it was you know, I'm spending

794
00:38:13,239 --> 00:38:15,120
Speaker 2: this time and money. It's not even a color, so

795
00:38:15,120 --> 00:38:18,120
Speaker 2: it would be pretty low maintenance then, and my feet too.

796
00:38:18,239 --> 00:38:20,080
Speaker 3: And I enjoyed it. I found it.

797
00:38:20,080 --> 00:38:22,000
Speaker 2: It's like, I know, it's such a privilege we will

798
00:38:22,000 --> 00:38:24,600
Speaker 2: go do something like that, but it's super relaxing. But

799
00:38:24,719 --> 00:38:27,120
Speaker 2: I found that it got to this point where I

800
00:38:27,120 --> 00:38:29,080
Speaker 2: would think, like, oh no, I gotta like it's been

801
00:38:29,160 --> 00:38:30,879
Speaker 2: it's been three weeks, I gotta get my nails done,

802
00:38:30,880 --> 00:38:33,960
Speaker 2: and it started to feel like this burden, and I thought,

803
00:38:34,120 --> 00:38:36,240
Speaker 2: what would happen if I just stopped?

804
00:38:37,840 --> 00:38:40,120
Speaker 3: And you know what happened. It It felt weird. For

805
00:38:40,120 --> 00:38:40,720
Speaker 3: a few weeks.

806
00:38:41,280 --> 00:38:44,440
Speaker 2: I learned, like any reasonable human can how to file

807
00:38:44,480 --> 00:38:47,160
Speaker 2: my own nails, and it's one lest thing I have

808
00:38:47,239 --> 00:38:47,759
Speaker 2: to worry about.

809
00:38:47,800 --> 00:38:49,600
Speaker 1: Now and talking must be so much easier.

810
00:38:51,040 --> 00:38:53,960
Speaker 2: It's just it's nice, right, It's nothing now, A pedicure

811
00:38:54,000 --> 00:38:56,160
Speaker 2: still feels good. I won't lie.

812
00:38:56,920 --> 00:38:59,399
Speaker 1: But the point is you doing it because it feels good.

813
00:38:59,400 --> 00:39:02,160
Speaker 1: You're not doing it to impress somebody. So let's move

814
00:39:02,200 --> 00:39:04,200
Speaker 1: towards the final part of this conversation. It's been so

815
00:39:04,320 --> 00:39:07,239
Speaker 1: compelling to talk with you about this, but I really

816
00:39:07,280 --> 00:39:08,759
Speaker 1: want to talk about what we can do to help

817
00:39:08,800 --> 00:39:12,719
Speaker 1: our children, both boys and girls, to get past this

818
00:39:13,440 --> 00:39:15,920
Speaker 1: awful belief that ties self worth to appearance. I love

819
00:39:16,000 --> 00:39:18,560
Speaker 1: your suggestions in Beauty Sick. You've got the back end

820
00:39:18,560 --> 00:39:20,960
Speaker 1: of the book is full of suggestions, and something that

821
00:39:21,000 --> 00:39:23,560
Speaker 1: you did was so consistent with what I've read in

822
00:39:23,600 --> 00:39:26,360
Speaker 1: the research and what I've understood, and that is there's

823
00:39:26,480 --> 00:39:28,640
Speaker 1: very little point talking to our kids about how everything's

824
00:39:28,680 --> 00:39:30,600
Speaker 1: photoshopped and saying, you know, I don't believe what you

825
00:39:30,640 --> 00:39:34,160
Speaker 1: see because it's all photo shopped. Because to them, whether

826
00:39:34,200 --> 00:39:36,120
Speaker 1: it's fake or not, and whether they know it's fake

827
00:39:36,239 --> 00:39:39,440
Speaker 1: or not doesn't stop it being aspirational. You know, you're

828
00:39:39,480 --> 00:39:42,520
Speaker 1: still focusing on the appearance, even if you're saying, look

829
00:39:42,560 --> 00:39:44,680
Speaker 1: at everything and be critical of it and highlight, you

830
00:39:44,719 --> 00:39:47,360
Speaker 1: know where the air brushing has happened, or the forty

831
00:39:47,360 --> 00:39:49,680
Speaker 1: thousand dollars that have spent on camera and lighting and

832
00:39:49,719 --> 00:39:51,960
Speaker 1: equipment and people, it's still in front of them, it's

833
00:39:51,960 --> 00:39:55,760
Speaker 1: still being noticed. So let's start with our little ones,

834
00:39:55,840 --> 00:39:58,879
Speaker 1: you know, our three, four, five, six year olds. What

835
00:39:58,920 --> 00:40:01,200
Speaker 1: can parents do to use the lo likelihood that they're

836
00:40:01,239 --> 00:40:02,920
Speaker 1: going to be beauty focused?

837
00:40:03,640 --> 00:40:05,080
Speaker 2: So the thing I love to say is that they're

838
00:40:05,080 --> 00:40:07,480
Speaker 2: actually a few pretty easy things you can do that

839
00:40:07,560 --> 00:40:10,719
Speaker 2: don't cost money, and they just take some practice. And

840
00:40:10,800 --> 00:40:14,560
Speaker 2: one of them is I'm encourage parents to consider making

841
00:40:14,640 --> 00:40:19,160
Speaker 2: their home and appearance commentary free zone, right where you

842
00:40:19,239 --> 00:40:21,840
Speaker 2: don't talk about the shape of other people's bodies or

843
00:40:21,840 --> 00:40:24,640
Speaker 2: who's gained or lost weight, or who's ugly or pretty.

844
00:40:24,920 --> 00:40:28,120
Speaker 2: And that means you, that means people on TV, that

845
00:40:28,160 --> 00:40:31,600
Speaker 2: means peers, That means even people you don't like, right,

846
00:40:31,719 --> 00:40:33,759
Speaker 2: even the politician you don't like. It means you know,

847
00:40:33,840 --> 00:40:37,080
Speaker 2: body shame that person either. And so you just give

848
00:40:37,120 --> 00:40:41,640
Speaker 2: this like continuous, gentle message that we leave space for

849
00:40:41,719 --> 00:40:43,839
Speaker 2: other conversations in this house. That's not how we think

850
00:40:43,880 --> 00:40:46,360
Speaker 2: about people. We don't think about them in terms of

851
00:40:46,360 --> 00:40:49,000
Speaker 2: whether they're beautiful or not. Now, I do think you

852
00:40:49,040 --> 00:40:50,799
Speaker 2: need to be careful there. You don't want to move

853
00:40:50,880 --> 00:40:54,200
Speaker 2: so far as to say how you look doesn't matter. Right.

854
00:40:54,440 --> 00:40:57,920
Speaker 2: Racism is real, anti fat bias is real. Right, Like,

855
00:40:58,000 --> 00:41:00,600
Speaker 2: all of these things can still be wrestled with, but

856
00:41:00,840 --> 00:41:04,239
Speaker 2: it means that you don't send the message to your

857
00:41:04,320 --> 00:41:07,520
Speaker 2: children that a part of what determines if they're good

858
00:41:07,640 --> 00:41:11,000
Speaker 2: or not is whether they're appealing to look at. So

859
00:41:11,239 --> 00:41:13,040
Speaker 2: just practice it, right. And if you have guests to

860
00:41:13,080 --> 00:41:14,840
Speaker 2: your home and they start saying like, oh, did you

861
00:41:14,840 --> 00:41:17,439
Speaker 2: see so and so last weight, just say, oh, we're

862
00:41:17,440 --> 00:41:19,360
Speaker 2: working really hard not to talk about those things so

863
00:41:19,440 --> 00:41:21,200
Speaker 2: much in this house. Do you mind if we change

864
00:41:21,200 --> 00:41:21,680
Speaker 2: the subject?

865
00:41:22,280 --> 00:41:24,239
Speaker 3: Right? It's a pretty easy thing to do.

866
00:41:24,520 --> 00:41:27,520
Speaker 2: And I love thinking about all the conversations that are

867
00:41:27,520 --> 00:41:28,480
Speaker 2: going to happen instead.

868
00:41:29,160 --> 00:41:33,040
Speaker 3: Right to me, that's so fun. Right. So that means

869
00:41:33,080 --> 00:41:35,560
Speaker 3: as a parent, you have to stop body shaming yourself.

870
00:41:36,880 --> 00:41:39,280
Speaker 1: And that's such a big one, isn't it. As a parent,

871
00:41:40,000 --> 00:41:41,759
Speaker 1: how do we make sure that the comments that we

872
00:41:41,840 --> 00:41:44,000
Speaker 1: make about our own bodies, if we go to make

873
00:41:44,000 --> 00:41:46,560
Speaker 1: them at all, which so many of us do, How

874
00:41:46,600 --> 00:41:49,480
Speaker 1: do we make sure that those comments are either positive

875
00:41:49,680 --> 00:41:54,920
Speaker 1: or uplifting or focused. Something that you emphasized in your

876
00:41:54,920 --> 00:41:57,840
Speaker 1: book that I've adopted immediately. I thought, this is so perfect.

877
00:41:58,000 --> 00:42:00,120
Speaker 1: Is when we're going to talk about our bodies, we

878
00:42:00,120 --> 00:42:01,880
Speaker 1: don't talk about how they look. We talk about what

879
00:42:01,960 --> 00:42:03,960
Speaker 1: they do, right.

880
00:42:04,040 --> 00:42:06,520
Speaker 2: I think especially for young children, because they're learning to

881
00:42:06,600 --> 00:42:10,840
Speaker 2: use their bodies. Right, So encourage them to think about

882
00:42:10,880 --> 00:42:14,520
Speaker 2: their bodies not from this objectified perspective, not from how

883
00:42:14,520 --> 00:42:16,880
Speaker 2: do they look to other people, but from the perspective

884
00:42:16,880 --> 00:42:18,239
Speaker 2: of what do they do for you? What do they

885
00:42:18,280 --> 00:42:21,200
Speaker 2: allow you to experience, what do they allow you to feel.

886
00:42:22,440 --> 00:42:25,080
Speaker 2: I've had some people say to me, oh, that's ablest, right,

887
00:42:25,080 --> 00:42:28,319
Speaker 2: because what if you're disabled. But that's I don't mean

888
00:42:28,360 --> 00:42:31,759
Speaker 2: that you have to be a marathon runner to appreciate

889
00:42:31,760 --> 00:42:34,759
Speaker 2: what your body does. Like, our bodies do all kinds

890
00:42:34,800 --> 00:42:39,680
Speaker 2: of things right there. They allow for creativity and communication,

891
00:42:40,239 --> 00:42:42,280
Speaker 2: you know, they allow us to connect with other people.

892
00:42:42,840 --> 00:42:45,719
Speaker 2: If you have children who are into athletics of any kind, right,

893
00:42:45,840 --> 00:42:50,120
Speaker 2: they allow that sort of thing. Bodies are super cool, right,

894
00:42:50,200 --> 00:42:53,319
Speaker 2: so teach your children about how cool they are, like

895
00:42:53,400 --> 00:42:56,120
Speaker 2: all the amazing things they can do and how they

896
00:42:56,160 --> 00:42:58,080
Speaker 2: can care for their bodies so that they can keep

897
00:42:58,080 --> 00:43:00,960
Speaker 2: doing cool things and not so that they can look

898
00:43:00,960 --> 00:43:04,080
Speaker 2: good to other people. Right, the best advice is to

899
00:43:04,239 --> 00:43:06,400
Speaker 2: just keep those conversations off the table.

900
00:43:06,640 --> 00:43:08,040
Speaker 3: I just don't have them.

901
00:43:08,960 --> 00:43:12,759
Speaker 1: If you were to extend that developmental trajectory from our

902
00:43:12,800 --> 00:43:15,239
Speaker 1: younger children into the older children, everything that you've just

903
00:43:15,239 --> 00:43:17,880
Speaker 1: said would obviously apply. Is there anything additional that you

904
00:43:17,920 --> 00:43:22,200
Speaker 1: would add to what parents can be doing to reduce

905
00:43:22,280 --> 00:43:25,279
Speaker 1: the focus on appearance with the tweens and teens.

906
00:43:25,719 --> 00:43:28,640
Speaker 2: It's gonna get really hard in those tween years, right,

907
00:43:29,080 --> 00:43:31,239
Speaker 2: and I think you have to be very careful as

908
00:43:31,239 --> 00:43:34,399
Speaker 2: a parent not to Here's a psychological term you've probably

909
00:43:34,440 --> 00:43:37,680
Speaker 2: come across a lot in your work on parenting is reactants. Right, Like,

910
00:43:37,760 --> 00:43:40,000
Speaker 2: the minute you tell a child don't do that thing,

911
00:43:40,040 --> 00:43:42,279
Speaker 2: they're gonna want it more. And so I think you

912
00:43:42,320 --> 00:43:44,840
Speaker 2: have to step away from that temptation to say, like

913
00:43:44,880 --> 00:43:47,720
Speaker 2: you're being vain, you're being superficial, don't follow that Instagram account,

914
00:43:47,760 --> 00:43:50,480
Speaker 2: don't post selfies, don't do that. Right, You can't really

915
00:43:50,520 --> 00:43:53,520
Speaker 2: do that. You have to give children some space to experiment.

916
00:43:53,880 --> 00:43:55,839
Speaker 2: But I think one of the best gifts you can

917
00:43:55,920 --> 00:43:58,319
Speaker 2: give your child as they move into those years, no

918
00:43:58,320 --> 00:44:02,120
Speaker 2: matter what their gender is, is room to explore all

919
00:44:02,160 --> 00:44:06,560
Speaker 2: the different parts of themselves, right, So ask them questions

920
00:44:06,640 --> 00:44:09,920
Speaker 2: about what matters to them, what's inspiring to them, what

921
00:44:09,920 --> 00:44:12,760
Speaker 2: they're worried about lately, what they're thinking about. I don't

922
00:44:12,760 --> 00:44:16,359
Speaker 2: think we ask our children enough questions as they get

923
00:44:16,400 --> 00:44:19,839
Speaker 2: to that age. A lot of children that age are

924
00:44:20,040 --> 00:44:22,200
Speaker 2: quite willing to talk if you ask the right question,

925
00:44:22,320 --> 00:44:24,600
Speaker 2: and if you show that you're willing to listen right

926
00:44:24,680 --> 00:44:26,239
Speaker 2: and not butt in and tell them they're wrong and

927
00:44:26,280 --> 00:44:30,400
Speaker 2: try to redirect them. And I think giving tween girls

928
00:44:30,520 --> 00:44:34,239
Speaker 2: space to be something other than beauty queens or other

929
00:44:34,280 --> 00:44:36,320
Speaker 2: than people who are constantly worried about the fact that

930
00:44:36,360 --> 00:44:38,879
Speaker 2: they're not beauty queens is one of the best things

931
00:44:38,960 --> 00:44:41,439
Speaker 2: you can do. So help them develop their interests, help

932
00:44:41,480 --> 00:44:45,359
Speaker 2: them develop their passions, and then when they move into

933
00:44:45,360 --> 00:44:47,800
Speaker 2: the teenyars, here is maybe And it sound like insane

934
00:44:47,800 --> 00:44:49,839
Speaker 2: advice that I told you I love teenagers, and I do.

935
00:44:51,120 --> 00:44:54,200
Speaker 2: If your daughters, in particular are struggling with these issues,

936
00:44:54,520 --> 00:44:57,080
Speaker 2: it's time to get them angry, right.

937
00:44:58,120 --> 00:44:59,839
Speaker 3: It's time to talk with.

938
00:44:59,760 --> 00:45:04,040
Speaker 2: Them about what a sick injustice this world does to

939
00:45:04,160 --> 00:45:06,879
Speaker 2: girls and women when it makes girls and women hate

940
00:45:06,880 --> 00:45:10,560
Speaker 2: their bodies. Right, it's time to ask them questions about

941
00:45:10,640 --> 00:45:14,440
Speaker 2: who benefits from that hatred, who's making money off of it? Right?

942
00:45:14,480 --> 00:45:16,720
Speaker 2: Whose life gets better when you don't like your body,

943
00:45:16,719 --> 00:45:17,960
Speaker 2: and whose life gets worse?

944
00:45:18,160 --> 00:45:19,960
Speaker 3: And what does that mean? Right?

945
00:45:20,080 --> 00:45:25,880
Speaker 2: Teenagers, as you know, are quite angry sometimes, so to me,

946
00:45:26,480 --> 00:45:31,520
Speaker 2: that's an opportunity, right, harness that anger. Right, let them

947
00:45:31,560 --> 00:45:35,240
Speaker 2: see the ways that they don't like what the world

948
00:45:35,320 --> 00:45:37,640
Speaker 2: is doing and set them on the path to make

949
00:45:37,680 --> 00:45:40,080
Speaker 2: in a better world. Right, teenagers are ready to make

950
00:45:40,120 --> 00:45:42,520
Speaker 2: a difference. I think we see this all around us

951
00:45:42,600 --> 00:45:46,520
Speaker 2: right now. We see teenagers doing amazing work, work quite frankly,

952
00:45:46,560 --> 00:45:49,800
Speaker 2: that we should have done right, and now they're taking.

953
00:45:49,600 --> 00:45:52,720
Speaker 3: It upon themselves. And so I think you can.

954
00:45:53,040 --> 00:45:56,359
Speaker 2: Really give space for your teenagers to turn some of

955
00:45:56,360 --> 00:46:01,560
Speaker 2: that sadness and that despondency into appropriately targeted anger. Give

956
00:46:01,600 --> 00:46:05,560
Speaker 2: them a passion, give them a cause, let them make

957
00:46:05,600 --> 00:46:08,279
Speaker 2: their mark on the world. I think they're way more

958
00:46:08,320 --> 00:46:10,000
Speaker 2: ready to do that than we give them credit for

959
00:46:11,320 --> 00:46:12,000
Speaker 2: great answers.

960
00:46:13,120 --> 00:46:16,600
Speaker 1: Something that stands out to me from the earlier part

961
00:46:16,640 --> 00:46:18,640
Speaker 1: of what you were saying is just if I was

962
00:46:18,680 --> 00:46:21,880
Speaker 1: to restate it, I guess and reemphasize a little bit

963
00:46:21,920 --> 00:46:24,600
Speaker 1: of it. What I'm actually hearing you say is make

964
00:46:24,640 --> 00:46:27,520
Speaker 1: their world and their lives so full that they don't

965
00:46:27,560 --> 00:46:30,680
Speaker 1: have the time or the space to be worried about

966
00:46:30,880 --> 00:46:33,640
Speaker 1: how they look. And that doesn't mean overcram their curriculum

967
00:46:33,640 --> 00:46:36,839
Speaker 1: and the shape, but it means give them, give them

968
00:46:36,920 --> 00:46:41,080
Speaker 1: the capacity to be developing other things, other talents, other strengths,

969
00:46:41,120 --> 00:46:44,960
Speaker 1: other capacities, so that they're not sitting there staring at

970
00:46:45,120 --> 00:46:47,520
Speaker 1: their image in Instagram and trying to make it look

971
00:46:47,600 --> 00:46:48,400
Speaker 1: that little bit better.

972
00:46:49,160 --> 00:46:52,040
Speaker 2: Many years ago, I am so sorry I interrupted you there,

973
00:46:52,080 --> 00:46:54,160
Speaker 2: But many years ago I tried to do a study

974
00:46:54,400 --> 00:46:58,080
Speaker 2: of young women who weren't hurting in this way, like

975
00:46:58,120 --> 00:47:00,280
Speaker 2: who felt pretty good about their bodies.

976
00:47:00,040 --> 00:47:02,120
Speaker 3: And weren't engaging and eating disordered behaviors.

977
00:47:02,160 --> 00:47:05,319
Speaker 2: And we found this very tiny group of them, and

978
00:47:05,360 --> 00:47:07,920
Speaker 2: we just did this basic interview about like what did

979
00:47:07,920 --> 00:47:10,240
Speaker 2: your parents do growing up and how did this happen?

980
00:47:10,680 --> 00:47:14,000
Speaker 2: And what they told us is that it was nothing magic, right, Like, yeah,

981
00:47:14,040 --> 00:47:15,600
Speaker 2: they were probably a little more likely to have these

982
00:47:15,600 --> 00:47:18,480
Speaker 2: sort of like feminist leaning parents who were like trying

983
00:47:18,520 --> 00:47:21,040
Speaker 2: to do some of this deliberately, but mostly what they

984
00:47:21,040 --> 00:47:23,080
Speaker 2: said is it's just not something we focused on in

985
00:47:23,080 --> 00:47:23,520
Speaker 2: my family.

986
00:47:23,520 --> 00:47:26,359
Speaker 3: We focused on other things. Yeah, yeah, And I think

987
00:47:26,400 --> 00:47:26,919
Speaker 3: that's the key.

988
00:47:27,120 --> 00:47:30,080
Speaker 1: A friend of mine, Rebecca Sparrow, she has a great

989
00:47:30,120 --> 00:47:31,840
Speaker 1: following here in Australia and one of the things that

990
00:47:31,840 --> 00:47:35,000
Speaker 1: she emphasizes is with your tween and teen girls, go

991
00:47:35,040 --> 00:47:37,160
Speaker 1: through their Instagram accounts with them, go through the people

992
00:47:37,160 --> 00:47:39,320
Speaker 1: that they're following and get rid of all of the

993
00:47:39,360 --> 00:47:43,200
Speaker 1: people who are focused on fashion and appearance and instead

994
00:47:43,239 --> 00:47:49,759
Speaker 1: fill up your feed with artists and poets and influences

995
00:47:49,800 --> 00:47:55,440
Speaker 1: and people who can offer something other than a view appearance.

996
00:47:55,760 --> 00:47:58,600
Speaker 1: And it's such a simple thing to do, and I

997
00:47:58,600 --> 00:48:02,680
Speaker 1: wonder how often we've done it. The big question. We've

998
00:48:02,680 --> 00:48:05,960
Speaker 1: talked about little ones. We've talked about a tweens and teens,

999
00:48:06,360 --> 00:48:10,000
Speaker 1: but what about the mom who's listening right now, or

1000
00:48:10,000 --> 00:48:14,520
Speaker 1: her husband or partner who is saying this has been

1001
00:48:14,560 --> 00:48:17,520
Speaker 1: my wife. How does she get past this and how

1002
00:48:17,520 --> 00:48:19,480
Speaker 1: does she make sure that she doesn't pass it on

1003
00:48:19,520 --> 00:48:24,160
Speaker 1: to her kids, and how does a husband or partner

1004
00:48:24,280 --> 00:48:27,319
Speaker 1: support her as she tries to get past it.

1005
00:48:28,719 --> 00:48:32,439
Speaker 3: So I've talked to so many women who they.

1006
00:48:32,400 --> 00:48:34,359
Speaker 2: Kind of come to this topic a little late, and

1007
00:48:34,400 --> 00:48:37,200
Speaker 2: they realize I've struggled with this my whole life and

1008
00:48:37,239 --> 00:48:39,799
Speaker 2: I didn't mean to, but I passed these struggles on

1009
00:48:39,800 --> 00:48:42,319
Speaker 2: to my daughter, and it's too late, and I blew it.

1010
00:48:42,840 --> 00:48:46,320
Speaker 3: And my message is always like, it is not too.

1011
00:48:46,200 --> 00:48:48,600
Speaker 2: Late, right, if you have a tween or a teen,

1012
00:48:48,719 --> 00:48:51,719
Speaker 2: or a young adult or even an adult daughter, it

1013
00:48:51,800 --> 00:48:55,759
Speaker 2: is not too late. And there is something I think

1014
00:48:56,080 --> 00:49:00,160
Speaker 2: just really beautiful about sitting down with your daughter and saying,

1015
00:49:00,760 --> 00:49:03,160
Speaker 2: I realize that these are the messages I've been sending

1016
00:49:03,160 --> 00:49:05,880
Speaker 2: to you, right, that I haven't been happy with my body,

1017
00:49:06,200 --> 00:49:08,200
Speaker 2: and these are the ways it came out, and these

1018
00:49:08,200 --> 00:49:10,600
Speaker 2: are the ways it might have affected you. And I

1019
00:49:10,640 --> 00:49:12,360
Speaker 2: wonder if you want to work together with me to

1020
00:49:12,480 --> 00:49:14,560
Speaker 2: change that, Like, here's some things I'm going to try

1021
00:49:14,560 --> 00:49:15,359
Speaker 2: to do differently now.

1022
00:49:15,360 --> 00:49:16,839
Speaker 3: I wonder what you would think about that.

1023
00:49:18,160 --> 00:49:19,879
Speaker 2: A lot of the daughters I know would just start

1024
00:49:19,960 --> 00:49:24,600
Speaker 2: sobbing with relief, right, They would so appreciate that kind

1025
00:49:24,600 --> 00:49:28,279
Speaker 2: of raw honesty it is. It's not too late, right,

1026
00:49:28,320 --> 00:49:32,759
Speaker 2: It's never too late. And if your concerns are severe, right,

1027
00:49:32,800 --> 00:49:35,240
Speaker 2: if they're really affecting your well being and your mental health,

1028
00:49:35,600 --> 00:49:37,280
Speaker 2: then I would also say, seek some help.

1029
00:49:37,920 --> 00:49:38,120
Speaker 3: Right.

1030
00:49:38,200 --> 00:49:40,640
Speaker 2: If part of how they're influencing your children is because

1031
00:49:41,360 --> 00:49:44,359
Speaker 2: the intensity of those negative emotions is so big that's

1032
00:49:44,440 --> 00:49:49,480
Speaker 2: leaking out, right, then get some professional support in there, right,

1033
00:49:49,520 --> 00:49:52,399
Speaker 2: so that you can learn how to you know, heal

1034
00:49:52,440 --> 00:49:55,040
Speaker 2: yourself up a little and then create a better world

1035
00:49:55,080 --> 00:49:58,960
Speaker 2: for your children too. But it's not too late, right,

1036
00:49:59,000 --> 00:50:01,239
Speaker 2: even if you have adult chal and it's not too late,

1037
00:50:01,520 --> 00:50:03,359
Speaker 2: And it's not too late to call your friends out either,

1038
00:50:04,080 --> 00:50:06,120
Speaker 2: to say, like, I want to do things differently. I

1039
00:50:06,120 --> 00:50:08,320
Speaker 2: don't want the first twenty minutes of every conversation we

1040
00:50:08,400 --> 00:50:11,040
Speaker 2: have to be about weight gain or loss. I just

1041
00:50:11,040 --> 00:50:12,919
Speaker 2: don't want to do that anymore. I have a friend

1042
00:50:12,920 --> 00:50:16,959
Speaker 2: who she's a junior high teacher, and she said she'll

1043
00:50:16,960 --> 00:50:20,239
Speaker 2: have these meetings with other teachers on zoom like we're

1044
00:50:20,280 --> 00:50:20,800
Speaker 2: doing now.

1045
00:50:21,000 --> 00:50:24,560
Speaker 3: And at the first few minutes they all fuss with like, oh.

1046
00:50:24,360 --> 00:50:26,920
Speaker 2: Do I have a double chin, showing I haven't been

1047
00:50:26,960 --> 00:50:28,480
Speaker 2: able to call her my gray that it's like this

1048
00:50:28,640 --> 00:50:33,319
Speaker 2: intro to their meeting. It's okay to just say no

1049
00:50:33,560 --> 00:50:36,759
Speaker 2: to that, to say like, no, I've decided I want

1050
00:50:36,800 --> 00:50:39,560
Speaker 2: a different psychological climate for myself, and it's going to

1051
00:50:39,560 --> 00:50:42,680
Speaker 2: start with me creating it and with me inviting the

1052
00:50:42,719 --> 00:50:45,640
Speaker 2: people I love to create it with me. Where We're

1053
00:50:45,680 --> 00:50:47,640
Speaker 2: just not going to spend so much time on this.

1054
00:50:48,760 --> 00:50:51,160
Speaker 2: There's so many other cool things to spend your time

1055
00:50:51,200 --> 00:50:52,360
Speaker 2: on and your energy on.

1056
00:50:53,360 --> 00:50:56,440
Speaker 1: This has just been such a brilliant conversation.

1057
00:50:56,640 --> 00:51:03,080
Speaker 2: I've i fear I've gone into lecture, my number one mode.

1058
00:51:03,520 --> 00:51:06,040
Speaker 1: I've been as absorbed in this conversation as I was

1059
00:51:06,080 --> 00:51:08,319
Speaker 1: with your book. The book is called Beauty Sick, How

1060
00:51:08,360 --> 00:51:11,759
Speaker 1: the cultural obsession with appearance hurts girls and women. It

1061
00:51:11,880 --> 00:51:15,160
Speaker 1: is literally one of the best books I've read in years.

1062
00:51:14,960 --> 00:51:17,520
Speaker 1: It's definitely in my top five over the last handful

1063
00:51:17,520 --> 00:51:19,920
Speaker 1: of years, and I just loved it. I can't recommend

1064
00:51:19,920 --> 00:51:22,759
Speaker 1: it enough. Before we wrap up, can I ask you

1065
00:51:22,760 --> 00:51:25,640
Speaker 1: a couple of quick questions about those that Nissan nephew

1066
00:51:25,640 --> 00:51:28,920
Speaker 1: of yours? Okay, because I always love to ask a

1067
00:51:28,920 --> 00:51:31,480
Speaker 1: handful of questions at the end of every podcast, everyone

1068
00:51:31,520 --> 00:51:34,360
Speaker 1: gets the same ones, rapid fire questions just about what

1069
00:51:34,400 --> 00:51:37,359
Speaker 1: it's like to have little ones in our midst. So

1070
00:51:37,480 --> 00:51:39,560
Speaker 1: if we asked your niece and nephew their favorite thing

1071
00:51:39,600 --> 00:51:43,319
Speaker 1: to do with the coolest auntie ever, what would they say? Ooh.

1072
00:51:44,120 --> 00:51:46,480
Speaker 3: So my niece's around four.

1073
00:51:46,719 --> 00:51:50,319
Speaker 2: She's super into crafts and so actually for Christmas, I

1074
00:51:50,320 --> 00:51:54,279
Speaker 2: got her this giant bin full of craft supplies and

1075
00:51:54,320 --> 00:51:56,520
Speaker 2: that is something she loves right now. And I can't

1076
00:51:56,600 --> 00:52:00,120
Speaker 2: wait till our pandemic lockdown is over and she and

1077
00:52:00,200 --> 00:52:03,400
Speaker 2: I can make some mess with paints. And then I

1078
00:52:03,480 --> 00:52:06,400
Speaker 2: really miss my he's just undertoo, and my nephew. I

1079
00:52:06,440 --> 00:52:08,319
Speaker 2: miss him so much because one of my favorite things

1080
00:52:08,320 --> 00:52:11,120
Speaker 2: to do with him is have him cuddle up next

1081
00:52:11,160 --> 00:52:12,799
Speaker 2: to me on the couch and read a book to him,

1082
00:52:13,080 --> 00:52:15,479
Speaker 2: and then when you finish the book, he scooches down,

1083
00:52:15,600 --> 00:52:17,960
Speaker 2: goes and gets another book, brings it back, gets back up,

1084
00:52:18,000 --> 00:52:20,520
Speaker 2: and I miss that. I miss those moments with him,

1085
00:52:20,560 --> 00:52:22,240
Speaker 2: so I can't wait to do those things again.

1086
00:52:22,480 --> 00:52:25,399
Speaker 1: Beautiful. Thank you. What's been your trickiest And I don't

1087
00:52:25,440 --> 00:52:26,920
Speaker 1: know if you would have had too many with the

1088
00:52:27,000 --> 00:52:30,440
Speaker 1: kids being so young, but what's been your trickiest auntie moment?

1089
00:52:31,520 --> 00:52:31,759
Speaker 3: Oh?

1090
00:52:31,880 --> 00:52:34,080
Speaker 2: I will say that I made a pledge never to

1091
00:52:34,120 --> 00:52:36,840
Speaker 2: talk to my niece about her appearance, that I'm just

1092
00:52:36,880 --> 00:52:38,640
Speaker 2: not going to do it. Figure I'll leave that to

1093
00:52:38,640 --> 00:52:40,320
Speaker 2: other people in her life, and I'll be a different

1094
00:52:40,440 --> 00:52:43,880
Speaker 2: place for her. But she is into Disney princess culture,

1095
00:52:44,840 --> 00:52:47,480
Speaker 2: and it is very hard for me to sort of

1096
00:52:47,520 --> 00:52:52,359
Speaker 2: maintain an openness around that when I really don't like it.

1097
00:52:52,719 --> 00:52:54,719
Speaker 2: I really don't like those elements of the culture. And

1098
00:52:54,760 --> 00:52:56,880
Speaker 2: when she's very excited and wants to talk to me

1099
00:52:56,960 --> 00:53:00,200
Speaker 2: about her new princess thing and her pink tiara and

1100
00:53:00,280 --> 00:53:03,000
Speaker 2: all of those things, I really struggle with that.

1101
00:53:03,120 --> 00:53:05,319
Speaker 1: Okay, last question for you. If you could spend an

1102
00:53:05,320 --> 00:53:08,279
Speaker 1: hour with this little niece and nephew at any age

1103
00:53:08,320 --> 00:53:12,440
Speaker 1: at all. Let's say that isolation finishes and tomorrow afternoon

1104
00:53:12,480 --> 00:53:14,239
Speaker 1: at three o'clock they're coming over to spend some time

1105
00:53:14,239 --> 00:53:16,400
Speaker 1: with you, and they're walking into the living room at

1106
00:53:16,480 --> 00:53:19,160
Speaker 1: whatever age you can choose. What age would you pick?

1107
00:53:19,200 --> 00:53:19,600
Speaker 1: And why?

1108
00:53:20,400 --> 00:53:24,800
Speaker 2: Oh, I can't wait until they're you know, like twelve thirteen.

1109
00:53:25,360 --> 00:53:28,080
Speaker 3: I know this this sounds bizarre, but I love kids.

1110
00:53:28,120 --> 00:53:32,000
Speaker 2: Once they get some angst, right once they're Once they're

1111
00:53:32,000 --> 00:53:35,360
Speaker 2: a little angry and have that intensity, and to me,

1112
00:53:35,520 --> 00:53:38,880
Speaker 2: that's such a cool window into the adults they're going

1113
00:53:38,920 --> 00:53:41,120
Speaker 2: to become, and into what they're going to care about

1114
00:53:41,160 --> 00:53:46,239
Speaker 2: and what their passions are. I can't I can't wait

1115
00:53:46,320 --> 00:53:50,759
Speaker 2: until until they get a little little adolescent moody. That's

1116
00:53:50,840 --> 00:53:53,280
Speaker 2: the age I'm interested in, and that's.

1117
00:53:53,160 --> 00:53:56,040
Speaker 1: When parents say, Auntieu are the best. Please take them

1118
00:53:56,080 --> 00:53:57,640
Speaker 1: for a week, two weeks a year.

1119
00:53:57,960 --> 00:53:59,920
Speaker 3: Yes, my brother jokes that I will be able to

1120
00:54:00,080 --> 00:54:01,520
Speaker 3: do at that time.

1121
00:54:01,680 --> 00:54:04,520
Speaker 1: Absolutely perfect. Well, Renee, if people want to know more

1122
00:54:04,560 --> 00:54:07,319
Speaker 1: about you and your book, Beauty Sick, where can they

1123
00:54:07,360 --> 00:54:11,360
Speaker 1: go to get more information about this incredibly important and

1124
00:54:12,440 --> 00:54:14,200
Speaker 1: really really smart work that you've been doing.

1125
00:54:14,840 --> 00:54:17,279
Speaker 2: Thank you so much for the kind words. People can

1126
00:54:17,360 --> 00:54:20,319
Speaker 2: go to Beautyseick dot com or if you're interested more

1127
00:54:20,320 --> 00:54:23,000
Speaker 2: in the academic research side of things, my lab has

1128
00:54:23,040 --> 00:54:26,360
Speaker 2: a website as well, which is Bartianmedia dot com and

1129
00:54:26,400 --> 00:54:30,440
Speaker 2: if you're into Instagram, it's Beauty Underscore Sick.

1130
00:54:31,560 --> 00:54:34,120
Speaker 1: Fantastic. Thank you so much for sharing this time with

1131
00:54:34,640 --> 00:54:37,880
Speaker 1: me and with our audience. You've been wonderfully generous and

1132
00:54:37,920 --> 00:54:38,640
Speaker 1: shared so much.

1133
00:54:39,280 --> 00:54:40,560
Speaker 3: It's been my pleasure. Thank you.

1134
00:54:41,520 --> 00:54:44,320
Speaker 1: I hope you've gotten some insight into doctor Renee Engeln

1135
00:54:44,480 --> 00:54:46,560
Speaker 1: as a result of this podcast. I love the quote

1136
00:54:46,560 --> 00:54:49,240
Speaker 1: from Renee's grandfather that she mentioned earlier in the podcast.

1137
00:54:49,239 --> 00:54:51,800
Speaker 1: Here is again, don't be too proud of your youth

1138
00:54:52,040 --> 00:54:55,160
Speaker 1: or your beauty. You did nothing to earn them, and

1139
00:54:55,200 --> 00:54:58,360
Speaker 1: you can do nothing to keep them. Isn't that great?

1140
00:54:58,680 --> 00:55:00,239
Speaker 1: If you'd like more info about how I can help

1141
00:55:00,280 --> 00:55:04,000
Speaker 1: your family to thrive and flourish, please visit Happyfamilies dot

1142
00:55:04,040 --> 00:55:06,440
Speaker 1: com dotu. And as always, thank you very much to

1143
00:55:06,600 --> 00:55:09,080
Speaker 1: Justin Royland for his work here in producing the podcast

1144
00:55:09,120 --> 00:55:12,240
Speaker 1: making it sound absolutely fabulous, and thank you for listening

1145
00:55:12,320 --> 00:55:14,040
Speaker 1: to a Happy Families podcast