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Speaker 1: It's the Happy Families podcast. It's the podcast for the.

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Speaker 2: Time poor parent who just wants answers.

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Speaker 1: Now, we love answering your questions. Podcasts at happy families

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Speaker 1: dot com dot you. That's podcasts with an s at

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Speaker 1: happy Families dot com dot a you. Hello this doctor

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Speaker 1: Justin Coulson. I'm here with my wife Mum to our

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Speaker 1: six kids. Kylie, Kylie, we've got to listen to question

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Speaker 1: that is just one of those big challenges, especially if

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Speaker 1: you're raising between and teen girls. This is the question.

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Speaker 1: I recently hosted a birthday party for my thirteen year

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Speaker 1: old stepdaughter in my home. She invited three close friends.

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Speaker 1: Now there's an asterisk here, Kylie, and it says her

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Speaker 1: closest friends only became a friendship group this year at

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Speaker 1: the start of high school. So we're talking about a

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Speaker 1: fairly new friendship thirteen years old, about ahead into grade days.

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Speaker 1: It became apparent to me as the weekend progressed that

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Speaker 1: she was on the outer of this group. She seemed

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Speaker 1: to have no put her influence. Her thoughts and suggestions

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Speaker 1: were disregarded or just not acknowledged, for example, what movie

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Speaker 1: to watch or what shops to go to? There was

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Speaker 1: some teasing. It wasn't excessive, but it hurt her physically.

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Speaker 1: I could see the disconnection as the other three friends

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Speaker 1: sat and slept together, wrestled each other, hugged, laughed, and shared.

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Speaker 1: The group dynamic became painful for my stepdaughter and she

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Speaker 1: was upset. How do we help a move from the

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Speaker 1: outer of her friendship group to inner circle? How involved

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Speaker 1: should us parents get and how? And there's a part

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Speaker 1: beat to this. I'm also wondering if we need to

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Speaker 1: reverse a decision we made about keeping her off Snapchat.

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Speaker 1: It is a social tool that this group users to

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Speaker 1: communicate daily. We're feeling a bit deflated after what should

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Speaker 1: have been a very positive we can we'd love your thoughts.

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Speaker 1: What stands out to you? So many places we can

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Speaker 1: go with this, so many places, And it's such a

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Speaker 1: thoughtful question. I just love this question.

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Speaker 2: So my number one tip, based on personal experience over

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Speaker 2: years and years with all of the girls, is nothing

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Speaker 2: ever good comes out of sleepover. It just never does.

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Speaker 2: That's my first point and my second would be limiting time.

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Speaker 2: We think that creating this big adventure weekend, whatever that

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Speaker 2: looks like, is going to be a positive, but what

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Speaker 2: we actually need to do is limit the time our

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Speaker 2: kids have together in some kind of structured activity so

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Speaker 2: that they're left wanting. We're about creating small memories together

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Speaker 2: in a structured It's tricky with teenagers because they don't

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Speaker 2: want structure. They just want hangout. But when there is

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Speaker 2: relationships are forming, you actually need structure to create experiences

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Speaker 2: that bond.

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Speaker 1: Okay, and I like the idea of structure as well.

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Speaker 1: Even if you're not going to do something specific like

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Speaker 1: an activity, we're going to go and do this thing today,

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Speaker 1: We're going to get together for ninety minutes and having

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Speaker 1: a time frame because as I said, when I sort

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Speaker 1: of jumped in over the top of you, less is more.

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Speaker 1: It's much better to leave them wanting more than to

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Speaker 1: give them an entire weekend of sleepover where they're going

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Speaker 1: to go, oh my goodness. I don't care if.

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Speaker 2: People are junk food their bodies to deal with it.

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Speaker 2: They don't sleep, their bodies don't deal with it. Now

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Speaker 2: that social media plays such a huge part in our kids'

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Speaker 2: lives with screens again, there's just this massive opportunity for fallout,

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Speaker 2: for being left out and excluded, and then obviously all

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Speaker 2: of the other stuff that comes with social media.

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Speaker 1: So let me just summarize what you've said. What you've

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Speaker 1: effectively said is you you're not a big fan of this.

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Speaker 1: I mean, we've raised six daughdits, right, so we've really

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Speaker 1: lived through this. Well, we're living through it for the

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Speaker 1: fifth time right now. We've got one more time to go.

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Speaker 1: But you're saying, absolutely, get the kids together. But sleepovers

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Speaker 1: create clickiness, they create fatigue, they create a whole lot

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Speaker 1: of It's like a melting pot of all the bad stuff.

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Speaker 2: Really, will you think about when our children act up

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Speaker 2: the worst? You've got that acronym.

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Speaker 1: Holts hungry, angry, lonely, tide, stressed, and you.

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Speaker 2: Add you pretty much put them into that situation except

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Speaker 2: for the hungry park because they'll eat.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, but they're way more food than they should. But

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Speaker 1: it's not nutritionally identical. Yeah, that's right. But I like

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Speaker 1: what you're saying with focusing on hangouts and having less

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Speaker 1: time together, but doing it more frequent and even structuring it,

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Speaker 1: especially as relationships are developing. I wrote a book a

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Speaker 1: few years ago called Misconnection, Why your teenage daughter hates You,

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Speaker 1: Expects the world needs to talk, and one of the

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Speaker 1: first questions that I asked like four hundred teenage girls

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Speaker 1: was what's the best thing about being a teenage girl?

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Speaker 1: The number one thing that they said friends, Like they

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Speaker 1: just love their friends. They said things like, I have

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Speaker 1: a very good, strong group of friends who I love

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Speaker 1: and can talk to very easily. The best thing about

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Speaker 1: being a teenage girl is that I have the right

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Speaker 1: amount of response building in freedom. I have enough for

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Speaker 1: my parents to trust me to go out and have

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Speaker 1: fun with my friends or whatever. But I also have

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Speaker 1: not too much that I'm expected to pay bills and

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Speaker 1: do other boring adult stuff.

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Speaker 2: So here's the scary thing, though, so many of our

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Speaker 2: girls can't say that, Well, my friends are then number one,

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Speaker 2: and yet they don't. They don't have that safety net

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Speaker 2: of good friends.

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Speaker 1: And that's what I was going to say. The next

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Speaker 1: question that I asked the girls is what do you

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Speaker 1: worry about the most? And you know the number one answer?

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Speaker 1: My friends. So my friend's my favorite thing about being

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Speaker 1: a teenage girl. But my friends are also the thing

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Speaker 1: that I worry about most because I'm feeling so insecure.

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Speaker 1: And let me just read this to you to highlight

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Speaker 1: how this works for them. One girl said, I worry

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Speaker 1: that people don't like me. Another one said I worry

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Speaker 1: that none of my friends really like me. Another one

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Speaker 1: said I worry about whether I'll have friends soon. Another

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Speaker 1: one said I worry about how my close friends actually

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Speaker 1: see me. I have a massive fear that everyone around

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Speaker 1: me is just putting up with me until I leave

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Speaker 1: them alone. And you can hear that insecurity. You can

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Speaker 1: hear the almost the terror, like oh my goodness, like

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Speaker 1: friends are oxygen.

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Speaker 2: And I've watched this with our girls in our own home.

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Speaker 2: There's almost this acknowledgment I would rather have bad friends

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Speaker 2: than friends have friends at all, right, you know, and

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Speaker 2: this scenario, this specific scenario. We watched this unfold in

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Speaker 2: our home before our very eyes, and this notion that

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Speaker 2: our daughter would prefer to be treated badly than to

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Speaker 2: feel invisible was just so apparent. And as we were

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Speaker 2: able to kind of talk with her and sit with

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Speaker 2: her after the event, she was quite defensive because she

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Speaker 2: thought her friends were the bee's knees and took her

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Speaker 2: a few months before she started to actually be open

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Speaker 2: to seeing what was actually happening.

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Speaker 1: You've just reminded me of a really important study. Didn't

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Speaker 1: think of this before, but so valuable. One of my

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Speaker 1: colleagues and friends, Chris Nemick from the University of Rochester.

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Speaker 1: We caught up with him and went to Negra Falls

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Speaker 1: some years ago when we had the opportunity to head overseas.

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Speaker 1: Chris did a study probably about ten years ago now,

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Speaker 1: talking about friends as forbidden fruit. So what he basically

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Speaker 1: said was as parents step in and become more controlling

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Speaker 1: and saying I don't like those friends. I don't think

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Speaker 1: they're good friend. I don't think they treat you well.

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Speaker 1: I don't think they're leading you down good paths. Kids

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Speaker 1: are repelled by parents and pushed towards those very friends,

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Speaker 1: even if they're I'm going to use the word bad

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Speaker 1: and inverted commas, even if they're quote unquote bad friends.

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Speaker 2: So you and I both we don't believe in bad kids.

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Speaker 2: We don't believe in bad friends as such, but we

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Speaker 2: recognize that sometimes two personalities they don't work well together,

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Speaker 2: with insecurities, challenges, whatever else is going on. Sometimes our

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Speaker 2: kids just don't work together well. They don't bring out

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Speaker 2: the best in each other, which.

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Speaker 1: Again points to the advantage that you've highlighted of getting

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Speaker 1: the kids together frequently, but for short periods of time,

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Speaker 1: and sometimes having structured activities so that they can build

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Speaker 1: a relationship around those activities rather than sitting there and

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Speaker 1: staring at their phones and saying, well, what do you

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Speaker 1: want to do? I don't know on board what should

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Speaker 1: we do? Own? And I've got nothing to do either.

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Speaker 1: Something that you mentioned to me when we were chatting

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Speaker 1: about where we could go with this conversation, I really

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Speaker 1: really love you emphasize the importance of one on one

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Speaker 1: time together, and as a mum of six daughters, this

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Speaker 1: one really it created a cascade of ideas in my head.

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Speaker 1: Tell me why you recommend one on one, especially for

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Speaker 1: tween and teen girls.

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Speaker 2: It is so hard to build strong relationships, strong connections

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Speaker 2: with a group of people. You are less likely to

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Speaker 2: show up as your real self because you are so

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Speaker 2: concerned about everybody else in the room, and you're not

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Speaker 2: going to open up your heart. You're not gonna you're

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Speaker 2: not going to share everything when there's a room full

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Speaker 2: of people because you don't actually know where all of

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Speaker 2: those people stand.

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Speaker 1: It's harder to build trust and.

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Speaker 2: How they feel about what you're about to share. So

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Speaker 2: those one on one connections are really really important to

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Speaker 2: build confidence and trust in the relationships, which then flows

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Speaker 2: into your friendship circle.

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Speaker 1: This doesn't just apply to kids and teen girls. Two

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Speaker 1: learnings from our lives. Number one when I turned thirty,

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Speaker 1: So we're going back a little while now, but on

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Speaker 1: my thirtieth birthday, you organized a wonderful birthday party in

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Speaker 1: our backyard, a surprise party, had a whole lot of

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Speaker 1: people come over, close, friends, family. I mean, it was

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Speaker 1: just fabulous. So the work that you put in the

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Speaker 1: way you did it was incredible, But I still remember

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Speaker 1: feeling a little bit flat and empty at the completion

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Speaker 1: of the party when everyone went home. For one central reason,

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Speaker 1: I didn't really get to have any great conversations with anybody.

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Speaker 1: I talked to pretty much everybody that night, but they

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Speaker 1: were also brief and superficial and interrupt. Did and we

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Speaker 1: have worked out in our preference system that if we're

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Speaker 1: going to go out and have dinner, or if we're

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Speaker 1: going to have people over, we prefer to have no

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Speaker 1: more than six people at the table. Four is ideal

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Speaker 1: six as a maximum, because with the smaller numbers you

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Speaker 1: get to have much more meaningful conversations. So you and I,

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Speaker 1: if we bring in one other couple over. Usually you'll

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Speaker 1: talk to the wife and I'll spend time talking to

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Speaker 1: the husband, and we'll have some time together as a

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Speaker 1: group as well. But the relationship is deep. But if

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Speaker 1: you've got ten people having a barbecue, the quality of

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Speaker 1: the interaction, the quality of the connection has to be diminished,

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Speaker 1: it has to be reduced. So one on one is

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Speaker 1: a fantastic idea. Something else that can be really useful

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Speaker 1: that I think we want to encourage, but it gets

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Speaker 1: harder as the kids move into high school. Is just

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Speaker 1: knowing who the parents are, actually having time with the parents,

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Speaker 1: saying hey, let's get together and go down to the

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Speaker 1: park with the kids, or let's get together and have

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Speaker 1: an event, have a barbecue, go for a walk along

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Speaker 1: the beach, whatever it is, wherever you are. The activities

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Speaker 1: that work getting families together and getting to know the

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Speaker 1: families can do wonders for helping the kids to consolidate

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Speaker 1: a relationship because when they see the adults are getting

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Speaker 1: on and the adults have a relationship of trust, it

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Speaker 1: models for them what they need.

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Speaker 2: And I think too sometimes, especially with girls, I don't

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Speaker 2: think we see it so much with boys, But there's

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Speaker 2: this idea if I catch up with one friend and

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Speaker 2: I'm in a group of four or five people, that

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Speaker 2: it feels like they're being excluded, and so by bringing

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Speaker 2: families into it, it's not an exclusion at your daughter's instigation,

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Speaker 2: it's a family dynamic and that changes the perception of

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Speaker 2: those experiences together.

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Speaker 1: Okay, there's one more thing that I want to mention,

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Speaker 1: just briefly about girls or kids and friendship groups, and

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Speaker 1: it has to do with this idea of moving from

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Speaker 1: the outer to the inner circle. I just don't love

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Speaker 1: the phrasing of that. I know what the mum is saying,

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Speaker 1: she doesn't want her daughter to feel left out. But

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Speaker 1: we've done something consistently with our kids, sometimes successfully, other

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Speaker 1: times not, where we have talked about creating your own

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Speaker 1: circle rather than trying to move into other people's circles.

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Speaker 1: Very very challenging. But there's a couple of questions that

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Speaker 1: I love to ask parents around this to discuss with

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Speaker 1: their kids, and those questions essentially relates to how you

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Speaker 1: feel about you? Do you feel like you can be

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Speaker 1: you when you're with these kids. The questions are number one,

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Speaker 1: do I like who I am? Do I like myself?

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Speaker 1: When I'm around these people. If you're spending time with

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Speaker 1: people where you don't like yourself, you have to change

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Speaker 1: who you are. You have to adapt and mold yourself.

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Speaker 1: Probably not the right group to be trying to move

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Speaker 1: from the outset to the inner on anyway, And the

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Speaker 1: second question, do I feel like I'm being true to

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Speaker 1: who I am when I'm around these people? Because if

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Speaker 1: there's any need to sacrifice values and change who you are, again,

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Speaker 1: good chance that this is potentially not the group for you.

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Speaker 1: Hard conversations to have. And like you said, when we

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Speaker 1: went through this with some of our kids, it didn't

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Speaker 1: happen overnight. It was a couple of months, and we

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Speaker 1: didn't badge them. It was just a soft conversation here

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Speaker 1: and there.

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Speaker 2: I think, yeah, just an observation, sharing observations. It was

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Speaker 2: never you can't be friends with these people they're bad

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Speaker 2: kids or anything like that. It was just an acknowledgement,

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Speaker 2: you know, when your friends were over, this is what

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Speaker 2: I noticed. Did you you know what did you notice?

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Speaker 2: And it's a little bit of a tangent, but when

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Speaker 2: you and I started dating, you came up with an

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Speaker 2: acronym that has actually played a huge part in our lives,

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Speaker 2: and funnily enough, without you sharing it with me, I

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Speaker 2: had come up with the same conclusion, just didn't have

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Speaker 2: the fancy acronym to go with it. But you talked

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Speaker 2: about this idea of BMX being more exceptional.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, do the people I'm with make me want to

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Speaker 1: be a better version of me?

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Speaker 2: And that was the sticking point out of all of

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Speaker 2: the guys that I had seen or liked. You were

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Speaker 2: the person that made me feel like I wanted to

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Speaker 2: be better. I wanted to be better when I was

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Speaker 2: in your presence. I wanted to improve and grow and

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Speaker 2: learn more when I was in your presence than any

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Speaker 2: other person I'd been with. And if we can instill

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Speaker 2: that in our kids, help them to recognize that the

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Speaker 2: people we want to fight for to have in our

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Speaker 2: lives are the people that make us want to be

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Speaker 2: better people. They actually elevate us, and we can do

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Speaker 2: the same for others. That's more powerful than any other

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Speaker 2: conversation we can have.

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Speaker 1: Okay, we're out of time, but we do need to

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Speaker 1: talk about snap real quick, Snapchat. I'm going to just

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Speaker 1: put it out there. I hate it. It's the world

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Speaker 1: that our kids are in. But what it does is

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Speaker 1: it amplifies the issues that they're facing and are confronted by.

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Speaker 1: So just by virtue of saying, well, all my friends

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Speaker 1: are on it and I need to be honest so

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Speaker 1: I can communicate with them, that's not going to necessarily

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Speaker 1: improve their friendships and relationships. In fact, it will only

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Speaker 1: amplify the differential that exists there.

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Speaker 2: Well, I think, based on on the experience's mum has had,

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Speaker 2: what I see is you are just taking that scenario

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Speaker 2: from your laundroom into a more private.

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Speaker 1: Into the palm of their hand, in their bedroom, in

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Speaker 1: the bathroom, wherever they've got their phones that they shouldn't

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Speaker 1: have them, And.

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Speaker 2: The experience is that she's having now physically are not

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Speaker 2: going to change because she's got Snapchat.

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Speaker 1: But we also have to acknowledge that it is the

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Speaker 1: world that kids are living in and they do feel

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Speaker 1: tremendously isolated without it, and if they really want it,

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Speaker 1: as girls told me when I wrote that book, Misconnection,

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Speaker 1: they'll just download it when they leave the house and

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Speaker 1: then to leader when they get home. Like, kids are

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Speaker 1: savvy enough to know how to do that sort of stuff,

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Speaker 1: and they do it all the time. I think when

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Speaker 1: it comes to Snapchat. I'm just looking at it and thinking,

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Speaker 1: why do you want it? Do you want it because

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Speaker 1: you're running towards something wonderful or do you want it

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Speaker 1: because you're fearful of exclusion? And if you want it

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Speaker 1: for positive things, then it's a different conversation. But if

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Speaker 1: you're wanting it because of negative things, I don't think

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Speaker 1: it's helpful. Of course, trying to explain that to a

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Speaker 1: thirteen year old who feels like she has no friends

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Speaker 1: is an extremely hard thing to do, but conversations, tricky conversations,

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Speaker 1: ongoingly and honestly probably the best way forward. We really

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Speaker 1: hope that these ideas are helpful for any parents who

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Speaker 1: are dealing with friendship issues as school wraps up for

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Speaker 1: the year and we start to work out how we're

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Speaker 1: going to get the kids social across summer. The Happy

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Speaker 1: Family's podcast is produced by Justin Ruland from Bridge Media.

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Speaker 1: Craig Bruce is our executive producer. For more information about

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Speaker 1: making your family happier, check out our blog with so

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Speaker 1: many articles to help you around this. Everything's at happy

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Speaker 1: families dot com dot au or visit our Happy Family's

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Speaker 1: Facebook page. Doctor Justin Colson's Happy families,