1 00:00:00,640 --> 00:00:03,840 Speaker 1: If you were anything like me as a kid, you 2 00:00:03,920 --> 00:00:08,000 Speaker 1: probably had your fair share of idols, and the majority 3 00:00:08,000 --> 00:00:10,720 Speaker 1: of them spoke to you through the covers of magazines. 4 00:00:12,080 --> 00:00:14,560 Speaker 1: If you were a little girl, some of those idols 5 00:00:14,560 --> 00:00:21,439 Speaker 1: were probably models, Beautiful, immaculately dressed, and impossibly cool. I 6 00:00:21,520 --> 00:00:25,320 Speaker 1: know I definitely wished at many points in my teenage 7 00:00:25,400 --> 00:00:30,440 Speaker 1: years to be just like one of those models. Lee's 8 00:00:30,520 --> 00:00:34,320 Speaker 1: Carlo and Sarah Wills, otherwise known as those two Girls, 9 00:00:34,520 --> 00:00:38,040 Speaker 1: and the hosts of the forty podcast lived that dream. 10 00:00:38,800 --> 00:00:42,200 Speaker 1: The only thing is it wasn't the dream they were sold. 11 00:00:43,440 --> 00:00:47,800 Speaker 1: Selling your image means turning how you look into a commodity, 12 00:00:48,320 --> 00:00:50,320 Speaker 1: and while it might be nice to pay the bills 13 00:00:50,320 --> 00:00:54,040 Speaker 1: with some photos on a beach in Greece, it also 14 00:00:54,160 --> 00:00:59,080 Speaker 1: makes it really really hard not to value yourself solely 15 00:00:59,320 --> 00:01:04,160 Speaker 1: based on your appearance. The pursuit for a more holistic 16 00:01:04,280 --> 00:01:08,280 Speaker 1: sense of identity kicked into overdrive for Lees and Sarah 17 00:01:08,400 --> 00:01:11,800 Speaker 1: as they neared the Big four to oh, and it 18 00:01:11,880 --> 00:01:16,040 Speaker 1: spawned a media empire catering to women who wanted more 19 00:01:16,319 --> 00:01:19,520 Speaker 1: from their fifth decade than to simply wind down and 20 00:01:19,760 --> 00:01:23,959 Speaker 1: step out of the limelight. Together, Lees and Sarah have 21 00:01:24,080 --> 00:01:27,960 Speaker 1: hosted Breakfast Radio for many years, have interviewed stars such 22 00:01:27,959 --> 00:01:32,520 Speaker 1: as Sarah Jessica Parker, and hosts one of my favorite podcasts, forty. 23 00:01:34,240 --> 00:01:37,600 Speaker 1: So what can we learn from the world of modeling 24 00:01:37,880 --> 00:01:39,320 Speaker 1: to help take a better selfie? 25 00:01:40,240 --> 00:01:41,600 Speaker 2: Why did Lees and. 26 00:01:41,520 --> 00:01:45,800 Speaker 1: Sarah step away from several very successful years doing breakfast 27 00:01:45,920 --> 00:01:49,960 Speaker 1: Radio and what are the best pieces of advice that 28 00:01:50,000 --> 00:01:53,800 Speaker 1: they have heard from their guests on their podcast forty. 29 00:01:58,480 --> 00:02:02,400 Speaker 1: My name is doctor Amanthey. I'm an organizational psychologist and 30 00:02:02,440 --> 00:02:06,360 Speaker 1: the founder of behavioral science consultancy Inventium, and this is 31 00:02:06,440 --> 00:02:09,480 Speaker 1: how I work a show about how to help you 32 00:02:09,680 --> 00:02:14,480 Speaker 1: do your best work. Whenever I listen to Lees and Sarah, 33 00:02:14,680 --> 00:02:18,600 Speaker 1: something I think they are masters of is storytelling. And 34 00:02:18,639 --> 00:02:21,280 Speaker 1: when they were on radio every morning and also on 35 00:02:21,320 --> 00:02:25,240 Speaker 1: their podcast forty, they have shared a lot of personal stuff, 36 00:02:25,960 --> 00:02:29,680 Speaker 1: and when storytelling is part of your living, I was 37 00:02:29,760 --> 00:02:33,720 Speaker 1: keen to know how they decide which stories to share. 38 00:02:34,560 --> 00:02:37,760 Speaker 3: I would say it comes from a very selfish perspective really, 39 00:02:37,880 --> 00:02:41,480 Speaker 3: where Lee's and my benchmark for everything that we have 40 00:02:41,560 --> 00:02:44,680 Speaker 3: ever done together has been would we want to go 41 00:02:44,760 --> 00:02:47,520 Speaker 3: to it? Would we want to listen to it? Would 42 00:02:47,520 --> 00:02:50,200 Speaker 3: we want to watch it? And if it doesn't fit 43 00:02:50,280 --> 00:02:54,960 Speaker 3: those parameters, then it's kind of not of interest, which 44 00:02:55,000 --> 00:02:58,360 Speaker 3: I know sounds very up ourselves, but we really figure 45 00:02:58,360 --> 00:03:02,520 Speaker 3: that we are our audience. Like everything we do is 46 00:03:02,560 --> 00:03:06,560 Speaker 3: geared towards women who we'd like to think are just 47 00:03:06,760 --> 00:03:08,639 Speaker 3: like us and interested in the things that we are. 48 00:03:08,720 --> 00:03:14,080 Speaker 3: So we figure if it's peaked out interest, then surely 49 00:03:14,120 --> 00:03:16,760 Speaker 3: it will do the same for other people out there. 50 00:03:17,240 --> 00:03:20,640 Speaker 1: How do you think about crafting a story to tell? 51 00:03:20,720 --> 00:03:23,840 Speaker 1: And let's maybe start with radio, where you're working with 52 00:03:24,160 --> 00:03:27,640 Speaker 1: some very serious time constraints. How does that work? 53 00:03:28,080 --> 00:03:30,520 Speaker 2: It's quite a learning when you get into the craft 54 00:03:30,520 --> 00:03:36,640 Speaker 2: of radio, your world is distilled into three minute sound bites, 55 00:03:36,920 --> 00:03:40,720 Speaker 2: and it took us a little bit. I would say 56 00:03:40,800 --> 00:03:44,640 Speaker 2: to get into the rhythm of every story has to 57 00:03:44,760 --> 00:03:50,000 Speaker 2: have an interesting beginning and to clear what we call 58 00:03:50,360 --> 00:03:55,120 Speaker 2: an out a very clear ending, and it's really tricky 59 00:03:55,920 --> 00:04:01,240 Speaker 2: to put every story you've ever wanted to hell through 60 00:04:01,400 --> 00:04:07,160 Speaker 2: that type of filter. Again, so I mean, we always 61 00:04:07,200 --> 00:04:11,160 Speaker 2: start with what makes us laugh, and then you know, 62 00:04:11,240 --> 00:04:16,880 Speaker 2: you might identify what the what the ending is first 63 00:04:16,920 --> 00:04:18,760 Speaker 2: and then make your way back from there. 64 00:04:18,800 --> 00:04:24,400 Speaker 4: Would you agree, Sarah, Yes, Lise, yeah, I would. 65 00:04:24,440 --> 00:04:27,160 Speaker 3: I mean radio is so different because you're mining your 66 00:04:27,200 --> 00:04:30,240 Speaker 3: life for little things that can be told in three 67 00:04:30,279 --> 00:04:33,760 Speaker 3: minute increments, And I suppose that's been that's the major 68 00:04:33,760 --> 00:04:37,520 Speaker 3: difference between short form and long form storytelling is you 69 00:04:37,560 --> 00:04:40,240 Speaker 3: don't have the grace of time. You've really got to 70 00:04:40,240 --> 00:04:43,320 Speaker 3: be very punchy with radio, and trust us, we were 71 00:04:43,320 --> 00:04:48,240 Speaker 3: not always punchy at all, But in some ways that 72 00:04:48,279 --> 00:04:51,039 Speaker 3: made it funnier for us because we went into radio 73 00:04:51,160 --> 00:04:55,799 Speaker 3: pretty blind as thirty seven thirty six year old women 74 00:04:55,880 --> 00:04:59,799 Speaker 3: with no prior radio or media experience. So in some ways, 75 00:04:59,800 --> 00:05:02,400 Speaker 3: I think that also worked in our favor because we 76 00:05:02,440 --> 00:05:05,320 Speaker 3: didn't necessarily know what the rules were. 77 00:05:06,320 --> 00:05:11,520 Speaker 1: How's it different for your podcast, and particularly when it's 78 00:05:11,600 --> 00:05:14,480 Speaker 1: just the two of you debriefing on your week and 79 00:05:14,520 --> 00:05:16,280 Speaker 1: you're thinking about what are the things that you want 80 00:05:16,320 --> 00:05:16,680 Speaker 1: to share? 81 00:05:17,279 --> 00:05:18,200 Speaker 2: How does that happen? 82 00:05:19,320 --> 00:05:19,400 Speaker 1: Well? 83 00:05:19,440 --> 00:05:21,359 Speaker 3: I think you have the grace of time with what 84 00:05:21,440 --> 00:05:25,680 Speaker 3: we're doing now. As far as choosing and selecting what 85 00:05:25,800 --> 00:05:29,080 Speaker 3: stories to tell in radio, I suppose it didn't. 86 00:05:29,120 --> 00:05:33,799 Speaker 4: Really you have to be a jack of all very quickly. 87 00:05:33,960 --> 00:05:36,960 Speaker 3: Like if there's a news story which Les and I 88 00:05:36,960 --> 00:05:40,040 Speaker 3: didn't really touch on because we're not serious journos. 89 00:05:40,120 --> 00:05:42,040 Speaker 4: Or we didn't deep dive into serious issues. 90 00:05:42,040 --> 00:05:43,480 Speaker 3: But you kind of have to get up to speed 91 00:05:43,520 --> 00:05:46,359 Speaker 3: on things very very very quickly if that's the news 92 00:05:46,440 --> 00:05:50,279 Speaker 3: of the day or that's of interest. Whereas with doing 93 00:05:50,400 --> 00:05:56,200 Speaker 3: forty both episodes every week, there is a real sinking 94 00:05:56,640 --> 00:06:01,520 Speaker 3: into the subject matter, which is obviously a guest on 95 00:06:01,600 --> 00:06:05,479 Speaker 3: Mondays who will have researched heavily. And then there's Lee's 96 00:06:05,480 --> 00:06:08,560 Speaker 3: in my episode, which is just about what's been going 97 00:06:08,600 --> 00:06:10,800 Speaker 3: on in our lives. But we can really be selective 98 00:06:10,839 --> 00:06:14,279 Speaker 3: and bounce off each other as to where we can 99 00:06:14,320 --> 00:06:16,839 Speaker 3: take it, where we can explore things that aren't just 100 00:06:16,960 --> 00:06:19,200 Speaker 3: in three minute soundbites. 101 00:06:20,240 --> 00:06:23,240 Speaker 1: I'd love to know about how you make really big 102 00:06:23,480 --> 00:06:26,480 Speaker 1: decisions like you detail a few of those in your 103 00:06:26,480 --> 00:06:33,120 Speaker 1: book forty, like leaving Breakfast Radio and then more recently 104 00:06:33,680 --> 00:06:37,400 Speaker 1: you decided to go independent and create your own media 105 00:06:37,480 --> 00:06:41,800 Speaker 1: company with your podcast. How do you make those really 106 00:06:41,960 --> 00:06:43,279 Speaker 1: big decisions. 107 00:06:44,720 --> 00:06:49,520 Speaker 3: Leaving Breakfast Radio was very easy for us because we 108 00:06:49,520 --> 00:06:52,599 Speaker 3: were both really unhappy, and that's the truth of it. 109 00:06:52,680 --> 00:06:56,080 Speaker 3: We were pulled from pillar to post because we'd said 110 00:06:56,160 --> 00:06:59,200 Speaker 3: yes to too many things thinking that that was what 111 00:06:59,279 --> 00:07:02,160 Speaker 3: we should do, and that's what other people wanted us 112 00:07:02,200 --> 00:07:04,400 Speaker 3: to do, and we were told that that would be 113 00:07:04,440 --> 00:07:11,360 Speaker 3: the natural progression for our radio career, and honestly it was. 114 00:07:11,920 --> 00:07:14,760 Speaker 3: I look back at it now and actually think, how 115 00:07:14,800 --> 00:07:18,880 Speaker 3: did I even do it for a year? Really? Because 116 00:07:19,440 --> 00:07:22,960 Speaker 3: my situation is such that my husband works away a lot. 117 00:07:23,000 --> 00:07:26,360 Speaker 3: He's a farmer, so he's you know, I had I 118 00:07:26,440 --> 00:07:29,400 Speaker 3: had nanny in to be with the kids to take 119 00:07:29,440 --> 00:07:32,560 Speaker 3: them to school because obviously the Breakfast well not obviously. 120 00:07:32,560 --> 00:07:35,480 Speaker 3: We haven't explained that the breakfast radio show was based 121 00:07:35,520 --> 00:07:38,080 Speaker 3: on the Gold Coast, which was an hour away from 122 00:07:38,160 --> 00:07:40,280 Speaker 3: my house, an hour and a half away from Leeza's. 123 00:07:41,000 --> 00:07:43,880 Speaker 3: We had to be on the Gold Coast sort of 124 00:07:44,120 --> 00:07:47,760 Speaker 3: one to two nights a week. Then, in addition to that, 125 00:07:47,800 --> 00:07:50,720 Speaker 3: we were still doing our national early breakfast radio show, 126 00:07:51,720 --> 00:07:54,280 Speaker 3: which went from five to six am around the country, 127 00:07:54,760 --> 00:07:57,640 Speaker 3: and then we had all our other work commitments on 128 00:07:57,720 --> 00:08:03,000 Speaker 3: as well. So juggling that professional balance with family life 129 00:08:03,840 --> 00:08:06,440 Speaker 3: was it was a bit of a nightmare for me. 130 00:08:06,880 --> 00:08:10,440 Speaker 3: For me really, and so waving goodbye to that was 131 00:08:10,520 --> 00:08:16,080 Speaker 3: not was one of the greatest reliefs of my professional life. 132 00:08:16,240 --> 00:08:18,240 Speaker 3: I think it was a hard lesson to learn, but 133 00:08:19,040 --> 00:08:24,840 Speaker 3: it's been such a vital tool in our kit for 134 00:08:24,880 --> 00:08:27,440 Speaker 3: any other decision that leads and I make moving forward, 135 00:08:27,560 --> 00:08:30,000 Speaker 3: because we already we had red flags about it before 136 00:08:30,040 --> 00:08:32,760 Speaker 3: we accepted it, had we had turned it down a 137 00:08:32,760 --> 00:08:38,240 Speaker 3: couple of times, you know, financially it wasn't it wasn't 138 00:08:39,040 --> 00:08:44,160 Speaker 3: where we thought it would be, And yeah, I personally was. 139 00:08:44,120 --> 00:08:45,040 Speaker 4: Just a headless chicken. 140 00:08:45,960 --> 00:08:49,960 Speaker 2: I think though, in terms of what exactly are the 141 00:08:50,080 --> 00:08:54,280 Speaker 2: tools we use, I think there's probably two or three 142 00:08:54,960 --> 00:08:59,680 Speaker 2: that we lean on. The first one, I would say 143 00:08:59,760 --> 00:09:04,560 Speaker 2: is honesty, like with one another with the situation, like 144 00:09:04,720 --> 00:09:10,000 Speaker 2: really staring at the situation and with no judgment, being 145 00:09:10,040 --> 00:09:13,200 Speaker 2: able to say to one another, what does this look 146 00:09:13,200 --> 00:09:16,000 Speaker 2: and feel like for me at the moment, with no 147 00:09:16,040 --> 00:09:19,840 Speaker 2: one else listening, not the shoulds and woods and what 148 00:09:19,960 --> 00:09:22,800 Speaker 2: have you? What does this actually feel like day to day? 149 00:09:23,640 --> 00:09:29,320 Speaker 2: And then from that base of honesty starts sort of 150 00:09:29,440 --> 00:09:36,320 Speaker 2: like a reassessment process. Does this match up to what 151 00:09:36,360 --> 00:09:39,960 Speaker 2: we really thought this would be? Does it align with 152 00:09:40,160 --> 00:09:44,240 Speaker 2: where we want to go? All of those questions that 153 00:09:44,320 --> 00:09:47,440 Speaker 2: you know, the benefit of being with your best friend 154 00:09:47,559 --> 00:09:50,400 Speaker 2: or with someone that you trust implicitly in business and 155 00:09:50,520 --> 00:09:53,880 Speaker 2: life is that if you can't reassess and be honest, 156 00:09:53,920 --> 00:09:57,959 Speaker 2: you're screwed in my opinion, because how do you maintain 157 00:09:58,200 --> 00:10:02,840 Speaker 2: in a duo situation like ours, how do you stay 158 00:10:02,880 --> 00:10:06,400 Speaker 2: on the same page for years, which it has been 159 00:10:06,440 --> 00:10:09,680 Speaker 2: now for Sarah and I. It's been how long, Sarah 160 00:10:09,720 --> 00:10:15,400 Speaker 2: seven years of consistently I would say, for the most part, 161 00:10:15,600 --> 00:10:20,160 Speaker 2: being greater than ninety five percent on the same page. 162 00:10:20,240 --> 00:10:23,560 Speaker 2: I don't think there's ever been a disconnect to the 163 00:10:23,960 --> 00:10:27,400 Speaker 2: to the point where you're like, oh god, she's thinking. 164 00:10:27,840 --> 00:10:31,720 Speaker 2: You know, we've had those moments where you go, what 165 00:10:31,760 --> 00:10:33,480 Speaker 2: are you thinking? What am I thinking? What do you 166 00:10:33,520 --> 00:10:33,880 Speaker 2: want to do? 167 00:10:34,040 --> 00:10:34,760 Speaker 1: Ah? 168 00:10:34,800 --> 00:10:38,280 Speaker 2: For sure, But as a whole, the direction moving forward 169 00:10:38,920 --> 00:10:41,800 Speaker 2: becomes the same because we can be honest and we 170 00:10:41,840 --> 00:10:42,599 Speaker 2: can reassess. 171 00:10:43,760 --> 00:10:46,960 Speaker 1: How about the decision to take your podcast forty to 172 00:10:47,040 --> 00:10:50,120 Speaker 1: be independent, Well, it. 173 00:10:50,200 --> 00:10:56,600 Speaker 3: Had started off independently because we were once we'd left 174 00:10:57,000 --> 00:11:00,720 Speaker 3: breakfast radio and we were still doing the national early 175 00:11:00,760 --> 00:11:03,160 Speaker 3: breakfast show. That was the year that Lees and I 176 00:11:03,240 --> 00:11:06,600 Speaker 3: both turned forty, and obviously we'd had that was a 177 00:11:06,640 --> 00:11:09,199 Speaker 3: real upheaval in our own lives. So again it went 178 00:11:09,280 --> 00:11:12,880 Speaker 3: back to that barometer of if we're feeling this way 179 00:11:12,960 --> 00:11:16,439 Speaker 3: about turning forty, then surely other women are too, And 180 00:11:16,679 --> 00:11:18,920 Speaker 3: what if we put our thinking caps on and actually 181 00:11:18,960 --> 00:11:24,320 Speaker 3: spoke to women our age or preferably older, who've been 182 00:11:24,360 --> 00:11:26,960 Speaker 3: there and bought the postcard and can tell us about 183 00:11:27,200 --> 00:11:30,480 Speaker 3: what their forties were like, then other people would that's 184 00:11:30,480 --> 00:11:32,920 Speaker 3: something we would certainly want to listen to, So let's 185 00:11:33,080 --> 00:11:35,640 Speaker 3: just create it. And of course, because we were based 186 00:11:35,640 --> 00:11:38,400 Speaker 3: in the radio station and we worked with wonderful, wonderful 187 00:11:38,400 --> 00:11:41,679 Speaker 3: people who were so supportive they said, yep, use the studios, 188 00:11:43,000 --> 00:11:47,040 Speaker 3: we paid our producer separately outside of his radio gig 189 00:11:47,120 --> 00:11:50,160 Speaker 3: to pull it all together, and then it got so 190 00:11:50,280 --> 00:11:55,320 Speaker 3: popular that it was brought into the network again. But 191 00:11:55,400 --> 00:11:58,760 Speaker 3: I think our decision to go independent is just that 192 00:12:00,760 --> 00:12:07,000 Speaker 3: we felt like we could service that product better on 193 00:12:07,040 --> 00:12:12,800 Speaker 3: our own, not relying on other people to do the 194 00:12:12,920 --> 00:12:15,720 Speaker 3: job that we felt we could do better. Again, remember 195 00:12:15,760 --> 00:12:17,520 Speaker 3: when I said that thing at the very beginning about 196 00:12:17,559 --> 00:12:20,360 Speaker 3: just being up ourselves, And no. 197 00:12:20,240 --> 00:12:22,120 Speaker 4: I don't think ourselves. 198 00:12:22,200 --> 00:12:25,520 Speaker 2: I think it was a really scary thing to do 199 00:12:25,720 --> 00:12:29,800 Speaker 2: because on paper, every podcast just wants to be with 200 00:12:29,840 --> 00:12:34,480 Speaker 2: a network, So on paper, the decision we were toying 201 00:12:34,559 --> 00:12:41,800 Speaker 2: with made absolutely no sense, and it's very hard to 202 00:12:41,840 --> 00:12:48,160 Speaker 2: stare down something that appears illogical to people in your industry. 203 00:12:48,720 --> 00:12:51,520 Speaker 2: But I think what we're driven by and what has 204 00:12:51,559 --> 00:12:55,520 Speaker 2: served us so well, is that gut feeling that the 205 00:12:55,640 --> 00:13:01,560 Speaker 2: growth wasn't where we knew we could take it. And 206 00:13:01,880 --> 00:13:04,840 Speaker 2: we're not experts in a lot, but we're experts in 207 00:13:04,880 --> 00:13:08,840 Speaker 2: our own gut feelings, and that it just kept something 208 00:13:08,920 --> 00:13:12,400 Speaker 2: just wasn't sitting right. We were getting very frustrated with 209 00:13:12,679 --> 00:13:17,920 Speaker 2: other people's processes. It was just that itchy, itchy feeling 210 00:13:18,240 --> 00:13:22,520 Speaker 2: of discontent, I suppose, And I think that's another thing 211 00:13:22,520 --> 00:13:28,040 Speaker 2: we're really good at, is recognizing those negative feelings. And 212 00:13:28,120 --> 00:13:34,920 Speaker 2: I think that's a really that's really indicative for us 213 00:13:34,960 --> 00:13:39,800 Speaker 2: of when something's not right, when we're feeling quite negative, Nancy, 214 00:13:39,920 --> 00:13:44,200 Speaker 2: would you agree, Sarah, when there's constant feelings that this 215 00:13:44,280 --> 00:13:47,240 Speaker 2: isn't this isn't how I wanted, or we could have 216 00:13:47,280 --> 00:13:50,760 Speaker 2: done it better, or this was botched up, or that's 217 00:13:50,800 --> 00:13:55,560 Speaker 2: not our natural disposition. So I think again paying attention 218 00:13:55,600 --> 00:13:59,359 Speaker 2: to that. But it was a scary decision. It remains 219 00:14:00,520 --> 00:14:05,960 Speaker 2: a challenging new step forward for us, but I think 220 00:14:06,000 --> 00:14:09,640 Speaker 2: as a whole we're really happy about it. And I 221 00:14:09,640 --> 00:14:12,240 Speaker 2: don't know I don't know why we're so calm about it. 222 00:14:12,640 --> 00:14:18,000 Speaker 3: I think because another lesson that continues to raise its 223 00:14:18,480 --> 00:14:21,280 Speaker 3: beautiful head it's not an ugly head, is that when 224 00:14:21,360 --> 00:14:25,160 Speaker 3: we take action together things happen. When we rely on 225 00:14:25,240 --> 00:14:31,800 Speaker 3: other people networks, sales, teams, publicity. 226 00:14:31,240 --> 00:14:32,200 Speaker 2: What have you, to. 227 00:14:33,640 --> 00:14:39,120 Speaker 3: Shoot us off into some kind of other small stratosphere direction, 228 00:14:39,960 --> 00:14:43,440 Speaker 3: it doesn't necessarily pan out that way. Whereas we know 229 00:14:43,480 --> 00:14:46,239 Speaker 3: when it's the two of us and we're in control 230 00:14:46,560 --> 00:14:49,600 Speaker 3: of what we're putting out there, how quickly we action things, 231 00:14:49,920 --> 00:14:52,960 Speaker 3: what direction we want to move in that we seem 232 00:14:53,000 --> 00:14:54,840 Speaker 3: to get green lights all the way. 233 00:14:55,080 --> 00:14:55,960 Speaker 4: And so we're. 234 00:14:56,000 --> 00:15:00,040 Speaker 3: Old enough now to look at those and say, this 235 00:15:00,320 --> 00:15:02,760 Speaker 3: is the path we're meant to be going on for 236 00:15:02,840 --> 00:15:05,680 Speaker 3: the moment. May change in the future, but right now 237 00:15:06,080 --> 00:15:06,840 Speaker 3: it feels right. 238 00:15:07,280 --> 00:15:10,360 Speaker 2: You know what came up yesterday in my feed I'm 239 00:15:10,400 --> 00:15:14,120 Speaker 2: a big I've been watching mel Robbins Sarah. I think 240 00:15:14,200 --> 00:15:17,840 Speaker 2: you've got me onto it. Motivational speaker. She's like a 241 00:15:17,880 --> 00:15:22,240 Speaker 2: Brene Brown type. She's amazing. She's super powerful woman in 242 00:15:22,360 --> 00:15:25,040 Speaker 2: just what she puts out into the world, and she 243 00:15:25,240 --> 00:15:27,760 Speaker 2: has this sort of go to piece of advice for 244 00:15:27,840 --> 00:15:33,360 Speaker 2: herself as a grown adult human, which is no one's 245 00:15:33,440 --> 00:15:39,720 Speaker 2: coming for you, which sounds which can sound incredibly daunting, 246 00:15:40,600 --> 00:15:47,080 Speaker 2: But I suppose the reasoning behind it is no one 247 00:15:47,240 --> 00:15:50,440 Speaker 2: is coming to do the work for you. There is 248 00:15:50,520 --> 00:15:54,240 Speaker 2: no silver bullet. Maybe for one percent of the population, 249 00:15:54,440 --> 00:15:59,080 Speaker 2: there is that magical opportunity that propels you into that 250 00:15:59,680 --> 00:16:02,080 Speaker 2: form mentioned stratosphere. 251 00:16:01,960 --> 00:16:03,720 Speaker 4: But for most of us, no one's coming. 252 00:16:03,840 --> 00:16:06,080 Speaker 2: No one's going to write that email, no one's going 253 00:16:06,120 --> 00:16:09,200 Speaker 2: to send that pitch, no one's going to turn you 254 00:16:09,320 --> 00:16:12,920 Speaker 2: into a star. It's who you are, and it's what 255 00:16:12,960 --> 00:16:15,600 Speaker 2: you're prepared to do to get where you want to get. 256 00:16:15,640 --> 00:16:20,640 Speaker 2: And I think that sort of boils down to our story. 257 00:16:20,840 --> 00:16:21,560 Speaker 2: I think. 258 00:16:22,880 --> 00:16:25,640 Speaker 1: I can one hundred percent relate to that from my 259 00:16:25,720 --> 00:16:29,680 Speaker 1: own career experiences. Now, something that you guys have in 260 00:16:29,720 --> 00:16:34,080 Speaker 1: common is that you were both models professional models, and 261 00:16:34,600 --> 00:16:37,040 Speaker 1: like you write about some of your experiences in your 262 00:16:37,080 --> 00:16:40,720 Speaker 1: book forty, which I must say I loved. I think 263 00:16:40,760 --> 00:16:44,120 Speaker 1: I've probably read it over a couple of days that 264 00:16:44,200 --> 00:16:46,760 Speaker 1: sort of lapped it up. But I think the mistake 265 00:16:46,840 --> 00:16:48,960 Speaker 1: I made was reading it quite a few months ago 266 00:16:49,080 --> 00:16:52,320 Speaker 1: before I'm interviewing you. I had all these moments when 267 00:16:52,360 --> 00:16:53,680 Speaker 1: I was reading the book going I'd love to ask 268 00:16:53,720 --> 00:16:55,120 Speaker 1: them about this, this and this, But of course I 269 00:16:55,160 --> 00:17:00,880 Speaker 1: didn't take notes. But I was curious as to what 270 00:17:00,880 --> 00:17:05,359 Speaker 1: what you learned when you were models, which you know, 271 00:17:05,880 --> 00:17:09,000 Speaker 1: I feel like, you know, I remember being a teenager 272 00:17:09,000 --> 00:17:11,960 Speaker 1: and reading Dolly and Girlfriend and looking up to these 273 00:17:12,000 --> 00:17:15,640 Speaker 1: beautiful people that were on the magazine pages. What did 274 00:17:15,680 --> 00:17:21,000 Speaker 1: you learn from that career path that still serves you now? 275 00:17:21,440 --> 00:17:23,359 Speaker 4: Look, if I can just jump in and just set 276 00:17:23,359 --> 00:17:23,800 Speaker 4: the scene. 277 00:17:23,840 --> 00:17:28,439 Speaker 3: As to the modeling, Lee's was the professional, full time 278 00:17:28,640 --> 00:17:32,200 Speaker 3: overseas model. I was good enough to be a part 279 00:17:32,280 --> 00:17:36,400 Speaker 3: time model in Brisbane during my university years, so there's 280 00:17:36,440 --> 00:17:39,400 Speaker 3: a big difference there. So while Lee's was like being 281 00:17:39,440 --> 00:17:41,960 Speaker 3: an in house model for Call at Dinner Again and 282 00:17:42,920 --> 00:17:47,160 Speaker 3: walking at Calvin Klein showings, I was in like pick 283 00:17:47,200 --> 00:17:49,960 Speaker 3: and pay catalogs where the paper was so grainy it 284 00:17:50,000 --> 00:17:53,840 Speaker 3: looked like I was missing teeth. So our experiences of 285 00:17:54,920 --> 00:17:58,040 Speaker 3: modeling are they're not on the same page. I'm sure 286 00:17:58,040 --> 00:18:00,720 Speaker 3: that there are still as there though. 287 00:18:01,359 --> 00:18:05,199 Speaker 2: Yeah. But that said, Sarah, I've said this to my 288 00:18:05,840 --> 00:18:10,639 Speaker 2: modeling agencies. You know, in the past, I was a 289 00:18:10,720 --> 00:18:16,160 Speaker 2: working model. I wasn't anything special. I just worked really hard, 290 00:18:16,400 --> 00:18:19,920 Speaker 2: and I wrapped my head around the business of fashion 291 00:18:20,600 --> 00:18:24,080 Speaker 2: really quickly, and that, in fact, was the most interesting 292 00:18:24,119 --> 00:18:28,080 Speaker 2: thing to me, because models are there to be seen 293 00:18:28,320 --> 00:18:33,720 Speaker 2: and not heard. It's an incredibly misogynistic industry at its heart, 294 00:18:33,920 --> 00:18:37,199 Speaker 2: at its root, and I just saw it as an 295 00:18:37,200 --> 00:18:42,320 Speaker 2: opportunity to make some money for a decade. I was 296 00:18:42,480 --> 00:18:45,119 Speaker 2: lucky enough to work for that long, but it was 297 00:18:45,240 --> 00:18:50,560 Speaker 2: nothing overly glamorous, like honestly, I just worked and did 298 00:18:50,600 --> 00:18:54,240 Speaker 2: my best at understanding how to form relationships and how 299 00:18:54,280 --> 00:19:00,000 Speaker 2: to leverage those relationships. Other than that, we both got 300 00:19:00,200 --> 00:19:05,080 Speaker 2: pretty screwed up by the messaging in that industry. Even 301 00:19:05,119 --> 00:19:09,400 Speaker 2: though we're smart educated at the time, we were kind 302 00:19:09,400 --> 00:19:11,840 Speaker 2: of more mature, I suppose in the modeling game. 303 00:19:12,240 --> 00:19:15,520 Speaker 3: Yeah, I didn't start modeling until I was until I 304 00:19:15,600 --> 00:19:18,959 Speaker 3: was twenty one. I'd gone to an agency when I 305 00:19:19,040 --> 00:19:21,520 Speaker 3: was eighteen, because that was just kind of what happened 306 00:19:21,520 --> 00:19:23,320 Speaker 3: back then. I suppose if people thought you were pretty, 307 00:19:23,359 --> 00:19:24,800 Speaker 3: they were just like, you should model, you should go 308 00:19:24,840 --> 00:19:27,280 Speaker 3: to a modeling modeling agency, and here's who I recommend 309 00:19:27,280 --> 00:19:30,600 Speaker 3: you go to. And I rocked up and the head 310 00:19:30,600 --> 00:19:33,440 Speaker 3: booker looked me up and down, and I want to 311 00:19:33,440 --> 00:19:36,800 Speaker 3: remember this was This would have been like nineteen ninety 312 00:19:36,960 --> 00:19:41,560 Speaker 3: nine maybe, I think where it was Heroin. 313 00:19:41,240 --> 00:19:43,280 Speaker 4: Chic, thin thin, thin, thin, thin, thin, thin. 314 00:19:44,119 --> 00:19:46,520 Speaker 3: And she said, you are very pretty, you're tall enough, 315 00:19:46,600 --> 00:19:49,280 Speaker 3: but you need to have a thigh gap. And she said, 316 00:19:49,440 --> 00:19:51,440 Speaker 3: have a look at some and so here beside you, 317 00:19:51,440 --> 00:19:54,360 Speaker 3: you stand up and I sort of stared at her 318 00:19:54,400 --> 00:19:56,520 Speaker 3: thighs and I just thought they were marvelous because I 319 00:19:56,520 --> 00:19:59,919 Speaker 3: could see straight through them. And that was you know, 320 00:20:00,000 --> 00:20:02,679 Speaker 3: so that was what was everywhere. That was what we 321 00:20:02,680 --> 00:20:05,640 Speaker 3: were surrounded with. There was no there was no other 322 00:20:05,760 --> 00:20:09,200 Speaker 3: body body type apart from a size six to eight, 323 00:20:09,240 --> 00:20:13,480 Speaker 3: and I was a size ten. So when I eventually 324 00:20:13,560 --> 00:20:17,000 Speaker 3: got some courage to try again a few years later, 325 00:20:18,160 --> 00:20:20,560 Speaker 3: you know, the agency I ended up with was was lovely. 326 00:20:20,600 --> 00:20:22,520 Speaker 3: They're like, we don't want you to lose any weight 327 00:20:22,600 --> 00:20:27,119 Speaker 3: because we need we need a girl your size, you know, 328 00:20:27,200 --> 00:20:29,800 Speaker 3: in parades and what have you. So your size again 329 00:20:29,880 --> 00:20:33,119 Speaker 3: being a ten, but that meant that I was, you know, 330 00:20:33,200 --> 00:20:37,360 Speaker 3: occasionally modeling plus sized labels that had bulldog clips in them, 331 00:20:37,440 --> 00:20:41,120 Speaker 3: and you know it does again like I remember thinking, 332 00:20:41,119 --> 00:20:43,600 Speaker 3: oh God, like if I if I had a thigh gap, well, 333 00:20:44,240 --> 00:20:47,439 Speaker 3: wouldn't life be wouldn't life be better? And that was 334 00:20:47,440 --> 00:20:52,720 Speaker 3: in my twenties, and I think, God for those poor 335 00:20:52,760 --> 00:20:58,280 Speaker 3: girls who started so much younger. That's it just warps 336 00:20:58,320 --> 00:21:01,080 Speaker 3: you for a while. Like I think, it's only only 337 00:21:01,119 --> 00:21:04,840 Speaker 3: been the last few years that I think I write 338 00:21:04,840 --> 00:21:07,560 Speaker 3: about it in the book since having My Daughters, where 339 00:21:07,600 --> 00:21:09,840 Speaker 3: you just have to reach a point where you stop 340 00:21:10,440 --> 00:21:13,680 Speaker 3: narrowing your eyes at certain body parts in the mirror. 341 00:21:13,760 --> 00:21:16,120 Speaker 3: And I think most women do it, whether they don't 342 00:21:16,240 --> 00:21:21,080 Speaker 3: like their ankles or the tummy or their right ear lob, 343 00:21:21,240 --> 00:21:24,280 Speaker 3: like whatever stupid thing it is. You've just got to 344 00:21:24,960 --> 00:21:27,480 Speaker 3: let it go and have that appreciation for the fact 345 00:21:27,520 --> 00:21:30,040 Speaker 3: that your body is doing everything it's meant to it's 346 00:21:30,119 --> 00:21:32,960 Speaker 3: meant to do, and don't I mean, it's also introspective 347 00:21:33,040 --> 00:21:35,159 Speaker 3: if you just fixated on yourself all the time. And 348 00:21:35,240 --> 00:21:37,240 Speaker 3: I think you might have the luxury of doing that 349 00:21:37,359 --> 00:21:39,920 Speaker 3: in your teens and twenties when you don't have other 350 00:21:40,000 --> 00:21:43,400 Speaker 3: things in your life going on, but you've got to, Yeah, 351 00:21:43,400 --> 00:21:44,320 Speaker 3: you've got to ditch that. 352 00:21:44,800 --> 00:21:47,480 Speaker 4: So yeah, And as I said, I was just you. 353 00:21:47,480 --> 00:21:50,159 Speaker 3: Know, ordinary, part time, unique kind of stuff. 354 00:21:50,440 --> 00:21:53,120 Speaker 2: But you're right, Amantha in saying that we do still 355 00:21:53,440 --> 00:21:59,520 Speaker 2: use elements of those skills from that profession to this day. 356 00:22:00,200 --> 00:22:03,200 Speaker 2: It is part it's part of it's part of our world. 357 00:22:03,280 --> 00:22:06,480 Speaker 2: We're on social media, we're presenting to the world, whether 358 00:22:07,040 --> 00:22:10,680 Speaker 2: you're presenting as a fashion model or not. The fact 359 00:22:10,840 --> 00:22:13,920 Speaker 2: is is that we have taken on these you know, 360 00:22:14,119 --> 00:22:17,280 Speaker 2: these tips and tricks, how to work a camera, how 361 00:22:17,440 --> 00:22:21,240 Speaker 2: to you know, how to move, how to all those 362 00:22:21,320 --> 00:22:24,159 Speaker 2: little things. And I actually really love to think that 363 00:22:24,320 --> 00:22:29,680 Speaker 2: those years of punishment in the industry have actually come 364 00:22:29,760 --> 00:22:33,760 Speaker 2: full circle and a part of the product we put 365 00:22:33,840 --> 00:22:36,960 Speaker 2: out to the world today in a very different way, 366 00:22:38,760 --> 00:22:42,080 Speaker 2: hopefully a much friendlier, more approachable way. 367 00:22:46,200 --> 00:22:49,080 Speaker 1: We will be back soon where we talk about what 368 00:22:49,400 --> 00:22:52,960 Speaker 1: lessons can me immortals like me learn from the world 369 00:22:53,040 --> 00:22:56,400 Speaker 1: of modeling to do things like take a better selfie. 370 00:22:57,160 --> 00:22:59,600 Speaker 1: If you're looking for more tips to improve the way 371 00:22:59,640 --> 00:23:03,159 Speaker 1: that you work, I write a short fortnightly newsletter that 372 00:23:03,240 --> 00:23:06,040 Speaker 1: contains three cool things that I've discovered that helped me 373 00:23:06,200 --> 00:23:10,240 Speaker 1: work better, ranging from software and gadgets that I'm loving 374 00:23:10,320 --> 00:23:13,359 Speaker 1: through the interesting research findings. You can sign up for 375 00:23:13,440 --> 00:23:17,000 Speaker 1: that at Howiwork dot code. That's how I Work dot co. 376 00:23:19,320 --> 00:23:23,840 Speaker 1: What awesome tricks that me immortals like myself can learn 377 00:23:23,920 --> 00:23:27,200 Speaker 1: to get better at being on social media in a 378 00:23:27,280 --> 00:23:30,200 Speaker 1: way that I don't know. How do I take a 379 00:23:30,240 --> 00:23:33,639 Speaker 1: better selfie? What can I learn from the world of 380 00:23:33,760 --> 00:23:35,119 Speaker 1: modeling and working a camera? 381 00:23:37,080 --> 00:23:42,320 Speaker 2: I think if every single person, even the most beautiful 382 00:23:45,040 --> 00:23:49,119 Speaker 2: women in the world, will have their good angles and 383 00:23:49,280 --> 00:23:53,760 Speaker 2: their terrible angles, everyone does. I mean, this is very vain, 384 00:23:54,040 --> 00:23:58,280 Speaker 2: it's very superficial. Clearly none of it is important. But 385 00:23:58,400 --> 00:24:02,879 Speaker 2: if you're asking, everyone has a terrible angle, and I 386 00:24:03,000 --> 00:24:06,200 Speaker 2: think it's just about again, I'm going to circle back 387 00:24:06,240 --> 00:24:09,200 Speaker 2: to honesty, Like the number of times Sarah says to me, 388 00:24:09,680 --> 00:24:12,600 Speaker 2: can you open your eyes? Like, why do you look 389 00:24:12,760 --> 00:24:16,320 Speaker 2: like that? That's how honor she is with me. You 390 00:24:16,440 --> 00:24:20,200 Speaker 2: know it's not hurting. We're not hurting anyone. We know 391 00:24:20,320 --> 00:24:21,160 Speaker 2: how to find the light. 392 00:24:21,920 --> 00:24:25,480 Speaker 3: Yeah, number one tip find the light. Number two. I 393 00:24:25,560 --> 00:24:29,040 Speaker 3: think it's well as I kind of said. I've never 394 00:24:29,160 --> 00:24:31,639 Speaker 3: really thought of myself as a model. 395 00:24:31,720 --> 00:24:32,000 Speaker 4: I don't. 396 00:24:32,040 --> 00:24:34,240 Speaker 3: I don't go on social media with that with that 397 00:24:34,400 --> 00:24:38,440 Speaker 3: in mind, but I do think the more friendly and 398 00:24:38,520 --> 00:24:41,760 Speaker 3: approachable and natural you are, the better people can see 399 00:24:41,800 --> 00:24:45,879 Speaker 3: through A pretender in zero point three seconds flat and 400 00:24:46,160 --> 00:24:50,240 Speaker 3: at this stage in my life, that's absolutely no interest 401 00:24:50,560 --> 00:24:53,159 Speaker 3: to me at all. Right, I want to see you 402 00:24:53,240 --> 00:24:55,040 Speaker 3: crow's feet, I want to see you laughing, I want 403 00:24:55,040 --> 00:24:59,680 Speaker 3: to see your slightly yellow teeth. I want to see 404 00:25:00,720 --> 00:25:03,960 Speaker 3: you whoever that person is, just being who they are. 405 00:25:04,080 --> 00:25:07,000 Speaker 3: And I think that's another huge movement that with that, 406 00:25:07,160 --> 00:25:12,240 Speaker 3: society is moving away from those perfectly manicured pictures of life. 407 00:25:12,280 --> 00:25:14,960 Speaker 3: I mean, it's boring because again, the older you get, 408 00:25:15,040 --> 00:25:18,639 Speaker 3: you realize it's just not the truth. It's just not 409 00:25:18,800 --> 00:25:20,960 Speaker 3: the truth. Life is not black and white. There are 410 00:25:21,080 --> 00:25:25,560 Speaker 3: so many shades of shades of gray and nuance, and 411 00:25:26,480 --> 00:25:27,159 Speaker 3: you should. 412 00:25:26,920 --> 00:25:27,600 Speaker 4: Be reflecting that. 413 00:25:27,720 --> 00:25:30,840 Speaker 3: I think, in whatever whatever it is you do, if 414 00:25:30,880 --> 00:25:33,320 Speaker 3: you're trying to be perfect, you're fighting a losing battle. 415 00:25:34,800 --> 00:25:40,520 Speaker 1: Something that comes across in that the sections that were 416 00:25:40,680 --> 00:25:45,639 Speaker 1: about I guess body image broadly, you know, is that 417 00:25:46,600 --> 00:25:50,680 Speaker 1: like with the with the work that you did in 418 00:25:50,800 --> 00:25:53,199 Speaker 1: terms of modeling to the various extents that you were 419 00:25:53,240 --> 00:25:56,000 Speaker 1: both in that you're valued for what you look like. 420 00:25:56,520 --> 00:26:00,639 Speaker 1: And you know that is such a such a like 421 00:26:00,720 --> 00:26:04,960 Speaker 1: I would imagine a difficult and like challenging kind of 422 00:26:06,160 --> 00:26:09,560 Speaker 1: thing to experience in life, to do how do you 423 00:26:09,840 --> 00:26:14,880 Speaker 1: shift out of that to not equating your self worth 424 00:26:15,080 --> 00:26:18,119 Speaker 1: to what you look like when you get out of 425 00:26:18,200 --> 00:26:20,760 Speaker 1: bed in the morning. It seems like you've both come 426 00:26:20,840 --> 00:26:22,760 Speaker 1: a long way, and I'd love to know, like, what 427 00:26:23,160 --> 00:26:26,000 Speaker 1: were the practical strategies that got you to where it 428 00:26:26,080 --> 00:26:27,560 Speaker 1: feels like you've moved to now. 429 00:26:29,160 --> 00:26:35,000 Speaker 2: I'm going to say the practical strategies really only came 430 00:26:35,080 --> 00:26:37,280 Speaker 2: to me once we started this podcast. 431 00:26:37,359 --> 00:26:40,600 Speaker 4: I think That's what I was going to say, yes, because. 432 00:26:40,480 --> 00:26:44,359 Speaker 2: Again, the reason we started it was, you know, we 433 00:26:44,560 --> 00:26:48,240 Speaker 2: were struggling with what does it mean to turn forty? 434 00:26:48,359 --> 00:26:53,000 Speaker 2: We had different different internal struggles with that, but definitely 435 00:26:53,400 --> 00:26:56,560 Speaker 2: having spent you know, the better part of a decade 436 00:26:56,800 --> 00:27:02,680 Speaker 2: indexing my worth or my value to my appearance was 437 00:27:02,800 --> 00:27:08,680 Speaker 2: something that was looming ahead, you know, just ridiculous, ridiculous 438 00:27:08,920 --> 00:27:11,879 Speaker 2: questions that I'd put to myself. You know what, who's 439 00:27:11,920 --> 00:27:16,440 Speaker 2: going to look at you anymore? You know, you're who 440 00:27:16,560 --> 00:27:19,119 Speaker 2: are you? If you can't turn heads? I mean this 441 00:27:19,320 --> 00:27:21,720 Speaker 2: I'm being really, I mean it's embarrassing really for me 442 00:27:21,840 --> 00:27:24,720 Speaker 2: to say this out loud because I know differently now, 443 00:27:25,000 --> 00:27:27,840 Speaker 2: But if you can't be honest with yourself that you're 444 00:27:27,880 --> 00:27:30,600 Speaker 2: thinking that and so many women have been conditioned to 445 00:27:30,760 --> 00:27:33,560 Speaker 2: think that whether you were a model or not, all 446 00:27:33,680 --> 00:27:37,600 Speaker 2: of us have can relate to that. I do think so. 447 00:27:37,760 --> 00:27:40,560 Speaker 2: Really it's just from listening to these women, these women 448 00:27:40,640 --> 00:27:43,120 Speaker 2: who were older and wiser than us, who would give 449 00:27:43,200 --> 00:27:48,280 Speaker 2: us these incredible perspectives of Hang on a second, there's beauty, 450 00:27:48,560 --> 00:27:54,320 Speaker 2: and there's there's this incredibly rich tapestry that lays ahead 451 00:27:54,359 --> 00:27:57,680 Speaker 2: that has nothing to do with the size of your bum, 452 00:27:57,880 --> 00:28:00,680 Speaker 2: the size of your thighs, or your waste or the 453 00:28:00,800 --> 00:28:07,200 Speaker 2: texture of your skin. Even so, it's a daily practice. 454 00:28:07,440 --> 00:28:10,959 Speaker 2: I would say to just get comfortable with looking at 455 00:28:10,960 --> 00:28:13,360 Speaker 2: your face in the mirror. Don't look at it too much, 456 00:28:14,080 --> 00:28:17,200 Speaker 2: not in a dismissive way. But I think we went 457 00:28:17,400 --> 00:28:23,400 Speaker 2: from staring at our faces on radio cameras for three 458 00:28:23,520 --> 00:28:25,320 Speaker 2: to four hours a morning, which was. 459 00:28:25,320 --> 00:28:28,280 Speaker 4: The begarting at three am, which was the. 460 00:28:28,320 --> 00:28:31,960 Speaker 2: Beginning of the panic, if we're honest, Because when you're 461 00:28:32,320 --> 00:28:34,640 Speaker 2: staring at yourself, it's like being on a zoom call 462 00:28:34,920 --> 00:28:39,400 Speaker 2: for four hours and you can't help but notice, you 463 00:28:39,480 --> 00:28:44,040 Speaker 2: know the thickening between your brow line, and you know 464 00:28:44,160 --> 00:28:47,400 Speaker 2: the fact that there's pigmentation that's appearing on your upper lip. 465 00:28:47,920 --> 00:28:52,840 Speaker 2: And remember Sarah when you grab your so called jowls. 466 00:28:54,840 --> 00:28:57,760 Speaker 2: Because of course we were tired, so you know, gravity 467 00:28:58,200 --> 00:29:02,520 Speaker 2: and stuff, and we were just picking ourselves apart Amantha. 468 00:29:02,920 --> 00:29:07,920 Speaker 2: And it's only when we started hearing stories of women saying, 469 00:29:08,840 --> 00:29:12,720 Speaker 2: what's the worst that can happen? Your face is aging? 470 00:29:13,120 --> 00:29:16,320 Speaker 2: Get with the program that is happening. It's a fact. 471 00:29:16,920 --> 00:29:22,400 Speaker 2: So either you're going to fight it and spend exorbitant 472 00:29:22,520 --> 00:29:29,000 Speaker 2: amounts of time and money and energy obsessing overturning back 473 00:29:29,040 --> 00:29:32,719 Speaker 2: the clock, which so many people do. There's no judgment here, 474 00:29:33,040 --> 00:29:33,760 Speaker 2: but you can't. 475 00:29:34,440 --> 00:29:38,000 Speaker 3: You can't turn back the clock. Whatever you do, you 476 00:29:38,120 --> 00:29:40,720 Speaker 3: cannot turn back the clock. So it's either you waste 477 00:29:40,920 --> 00:29:44,200 Speaker 3: energy now wishing for something that you will never be 478 00:29:44,320 --> 00:29:48,040 Speaker 3: able to achieve, or you focus that outwards instead of 479 00:29:48,120 --> 00:29:51,720 Speaker 3: again inwards. And Lees and I were getting botox. We 480 00:29:51,800 --> 00:29:54,560 Speaker 3: were getting it in our forehead, in our frown line. 481 00:29:54,920 --> 00:29:56,800 Speaker 3: And it was only through writing the book when we 482 00:29:56,960 --> 00:29:59,120 Speaker 3: were like, what what are we? 483 00:29:59,400 --> 00:29:59,959 Speaker 4: What are we doing? 484 00:30:00,200 --> 00:30:02,560 Speaker 3: Because we actually really like our faces. They've served us, 485 00:30:03,040 --> 00:30:04,960 Speaker 3: they serve as well. These are this is the vessel 486 00:30:05,040 --> 00:30:08,520 Speaker 3: that we're in, as people say, and I think Leezie 487 00:30:08,560 --> 00:30:10,720 Speaker 3: had said, what's the worst people that can happen, Like 488 00:30:10,760 --> 00:30:13,160 Speaker 3: people think you're angry when you are angry. 489 00:30:13,320 --> 00:30:18,000 Speaker 2: Okay, I'm angry a lot of the time they be correct, yes, 490 00:30:18,680 --> 00:30:22,320 Speaker 2: And then we were starting to really evaluate words like 491 00:30:23,280 --> 00:30:26,280 Speaker 2: I just feel fresher, you know, you get your botox done, 492 00:30:26,920 --> 00:30:30,800 Speaker 2: and then you're conditioned to look at this, this this 493 00:30:31,720 --> 00:30:38,840 Speaker 2: not expressionless but this kind of very still face, and 494 00:30:38,960 --> 00:30:44,640 Speaker 2: you're conditioned to equate that to feeling refreshed, like like 495 00:30:44,800 --> 00:30:49,360 Speaker 2: we're ripened black bananas or something. If we don't do that, 496 00:30:49,640 --> 00:30:51,920 Speaker 2: and then that, really that was an affront to me 497 00:30:52,080 --> 00:30:55,560 Speaker 2: when I realized, like what am I if I'm not fresh? 498 00:30:56,160 --> 00:30:56,600 Speaker 4: What does that? 499 00:30:56,840 --> 00:31:00,600 Speaker 2: What am I actually saying to myself? And I don't 500 00:31:00,640 --> 00:31:05,160 Speaker 2: get the boatox that I'm stale? And that made me 501 00:31:05,400 --> 00:31:10,920 Speaker 2: angry and it made me stop getting boatox. And you know, 502 00:31:11,120 --> 00:31:13,320 Speaker 2: I don't know, Come talk to me in five years. 503 00:31:13,440 --> 00:31:17,480 Speaker 2: Maybe I'll have changed my mind by then, But for now, 504 00:31:17,600 --> 00:31:20,320 Speaker 2: I'm really happy for that with that decision. It's been 505 00:31:20,400 --> 00:31:24,479 Speaker 2: a couple of years. I've noticed some changes. They're going 506 00:31:24,560 --> 00:31:25,240 Speaker 2: to keep going. 507 00:31:25,680 --> 00:31:30,640 Speaker 1: But you know, any other strategies for you, Sarah, that 508 00:31:31,240 --> 00:31:35,760 Speaker 1: have helped you? I guess like almost detached from you know, 509 00:31:36,000 --> 00:31:39,640 Speaker 1: basing how you feel and your own worth on what 510 00:31:39,800 --> 00:31:40,280 Speaker 1: you look like. 511 00:31:41,520 --> 00:31:44,000 Speaker 3: Oh look, I think again. At thirty nine, on the 512 00:31:44,200 --> 00:31:48,440 Speaker 3: precipice of turning forty, I had another huge wake up call, 513 00:31:48,480 --> 00:31:51,600 Speaker 3: although I didn't realize it until I'd started writing the book, 514 00:31:51,680 --> 00:31:54,400 Speaker 3: but my mother in law had died and she was 515 00:31:54,440 --> 00:31:56,520 Speaker 3: in her eighties. So it was a good innings by 516 00:31:56,600 --> 00:31:58,640 Speaker 3: all account, but it doesn't make it any less sad 517 00:31:58,720 --> 00:32:01,960 Speaker 3: when someone you loved it. But she passed away from 518 00:32:02,040 --> 00:32:05,840 Speaker 3: mode of your own disease, which is a really hideous condition. 519 00:32:06,040 --> 00:32:10,680 Speaker 3: It's life, it's terminal and in the end it means 520 00:32:10,720 --> 00:32:15,400 Speaker 3: you can't walk, talk, you know, eat, swallow, and eventually 521 00:32:15,560 --> 00:32:17,840 Speaker 3: you can't breathe. So it's a really it's a horrible, 522 00:32:18,040 --> 00:32:20,040 Speaker 3: horrible way to end a life. And she was such 523 00:32:20,080 --> 00:32:21,080 Speaker 3: a kind lady. 524 00:32:21,160 --> 00:32:23,240 Speaker 4: She was so active, she. 525 00:32:23,480 --> 00:32:27,280 Speaker 3: Was involved in her community. She had all these dreams 526 00:32:27,360 --> 00:32:29,440 Speaker 3: in her in her seventies to go on a cruise 527 00:32:29,480 --> 00:32:32,640 Speaker 3: ship with her girlfriends, and many of them were also 528 00:32:32,720 --> 00:32:34,960 Speaker 3: widowers like she was. She'd lost her husband in her 529 00:32:35,000 --> 00:32:38,960 Speaker 3: seventies and then she she never got that chance to 530 00:32:39,040 --> 00:32:43,240 Speaker 3: do that because her own health when on the downhill 531 00:32:43,680 --> 00:32:47,440 Speaker 3: slide obviously, and I think it was just that you can't, 532 00:32:48,640 --> 00:32:51,320 Speaker 3: as Lee's mentioned, picking yourself a part over things that 533 00:32:51,480 --> 00:32:55,680 Speaker 3: don't matter when you're in you're in good health and 534 00:32:55,760 --> 00:32:59,880 Speaker 3: everything's working as it's as it's meant to is just 535 00:33:00,120 --> 00:33:04,200 Speaker 3: such a waste of brain power, I think. So that 536 00:33:04,880 --> 00:33:06,800 Speaker 3: was huge for me and I thought, no, you can't. 537 00:33:07,360 --> 00:33:15,360 Speaker 3: I won't ever pick apart my functional, perfectly fine body 538 00:33:15,640 --> 00:33:19,960 Speaker 3: or looks ever again, because when it goes wrong, it 539 00:33:20,120 --> 00:33:20,920 Speaker 3: really goes wrong. 540 00:33:22,880 --> 00:33:26,440 Speaker 1: You guys have interviewed some amazing women on forty. I'd 541 00:33:26,520 --> 00:33:30,600 Speaker 1: love to know for each of you, what are some 542 00:33:31,240 --> 00:33:35,720 Speaker 1: of the gems that you've learned that have really changed 543 00:33:35,840 --> 00:33:39,640 Speaker 1: your life few or how you approach your work in 544 00:33:39,760 --> 00:33:40,760 Speaker 1: some fundamental way. 545 00:33:42,640 --> 00:33:44,640 Speaker 2: Going to I'm going to rope you in here, Amantha, 546 00:33:44,760 --> 00:33:47,760 Speaker 2: because we have had you on the podcast and although 547 00:33:47,840 --> 00:33:51,840 Speaker 2: I am far from mastering it. Your tip you gave 548 00:33:52,040 --> 00:33:57,680 Speaker 2: us about monotasking sits with me daily because I am 549 00:33:57,880 --> 00:34:02,240 Speaker 2: not a natural monotasker. In fact, I've prided myself on 550 00:34:02,400 --> 00:34:05,760 Speaker 2: being an exceptional multitasker. But what that means is that 551 00:34:06,120 --> 00:34:11,600 Speaker 2: I never really finish anything. So that's definitely one very 552 00:34:11,680 --> 00:34:16,239 Speaker 2: practical tip from one of our guests. Oh gosh, there's 553 00:34:16,320 --> 00:34:19,560 Speaker 2: been so many it's like picking a favorite child. 554 00:34:20,760 --> 00:34:22,960 Speaker 3: I think. We open our book with a quote from 555 00:34:22,960 --> 00:34:27,800 Speaker 3: Angela Mollard, who's a columnist, and she said your forties 556 00:34:27,920 --> 00:34:33,719 Speaker 3: is about deciding, not sliding, and that one sentence really 557 00:34:33,800 --> 00:34:36,440 Speaker 3: made lee'son my ears prick up when we heard it, 558 00:34:36,560 --> 00:34:39,000 Speaker 3: because it's true. So many things in your life you 559 00:34:39,320 --> 00:34:42,640 Speaker 3: just you might slide into your university course and then 560 00:34:42,760 --> 00:34:46,240 Speaker 3: do the career that you think you should do, get married, 561 00:34:46,320 --> 00:34:49,400 Speaker 3: you have kids, You go through these sort of typical 562 00:34:49,600 --> 00:34:53,680 Speaker 3: life motions, I suppose, because that's how it should be. 563 00:34:54,000 --> 00:34:58,200 Speaker 3: But when you actually stop and decide what your next 564 00:34:58,320 --> 00:35:03,720 Speaker 3: move is, I think that's a huge, huge benefit to anyone, 565 00:35:03,840 --> 00:35:05,640 Speaker 3: regardless of what situation you're in. 566 00:35:06,280 --> 00:35:11,319 Speaker 2: We've had Justine Cullens spoke beautifully about your dreams being 567 00:35:12,120 --> 00:35:16,839 Speaker 2: allowed to change, uh, which is something that I had 568 00:35:17,160 --> 00:35:19,880 Speaker 2: struggled with in the past. That when you when you 569 00:35:20,040 --> 00:35:23,160 Speaker 2: reach what you think is your dream position in life, 570 00:35:23,320 --> 00:35:26,080 Speaker 2: whether that be a job, of a partner, whatever that is, 571 00:35:27,000 --> 00:35:29,600 Speaker 2: and if you get there and it's not quite right, 572 00:35:30,400 --> 00:35:34,240 Speaker 2: it doesn't make you a fickle, ungrateful person to change 573 00:35:34,320 --> 00:35:37,920 Speaker 2: the course of that dream and to hear that from 574 00:35:37,960 --> 00:35:41,040 Speaker 2: a woman who's a few years older than me just 575 00:35:41,280 --> 00:35:46,160 Speaker 2: almost gave me permission to just go, oh yeah, we 576 00:35:46,239 --> 00:35:48,520 Speaker 2: can change. We can change it as we go. There 577 00:35:48,640 --> 00:35:55,320 Speaker 2: is no end, final destination. And I think there's been women, Sarah, 578 00:35:55,400 --> 00:35:59,080 Speaker 2: you'll know who who mentioned that, you know, in relationships, 579 00:35:59,600 --> 00:36:02,320 Speaker 2: you're partner is meant to change. 580 00:36:02,680 --> 00:36:03,680 Speaker 3: That was Michelle Laurie. 581 00:36:04,040 --> 00:36:08,239 Speaker 2: Michelle Laurie, you are meant to change. The outcome of that, 582 00:36:08,480 --> 00:36:13,360 Speaker 2: of course, will be different for every couple or every relationship, 583 00:36:13,480 --> 00:36:17,239 Speaker 2: but that idea that we've been sold that you know 584 00:36:17,320 --> 00:36:20,000 Speaker 2: it's a horrible thing. If your friend or if your 585 00:36:20,120 --> 00:36:25,160 Speaker 2: husband changes, how dare they when really that's the whole 586 00:36:25,280 --> 00:36:28,040 Speaker 2: point of it. It's what it's how you manage it, 587 00:36:28,080 --> 00:36:31,800 Speaker 2: and if it's manageable, that counts. 588 00:36:31,840 --> 00:36:35,680 Speaker 1: I suppose well, as a forty four year old woman, 589 00:36:35,920 --> 00:36:39,239 Speaker 1: I love what you guys do and just you know 590 00:36:40,000 --> 00:36:43,360 Speaker 1: all the wisdom that you've helped me learn as someone 591 00:36:43,440 --> 00:36:47,160 Speaker 1: that loves your work. So, for listeners who are keen 592 00:36:47,480 --> 00:36:50,319 Speaker 1: to consume more of what you're putting out in the world, 593 00:36:50,400 --> 00:36:52,480 Speaker 1: what is the best way for people to connect with you? 594 00:36:53,320 --> 00:36:56,560 Speaker 3: The best way would be to listen to the podcast. 595 00:36:56,640 --> 00:36:59,960 Speaker 3: It's called forty. It's available wherever you listen to your podcast. 596 00:37:00,320 --> 00:37:03,440 Speaker 3: We also wrote a book called forty Favors the Brave 597 00:37:03,560 --> 00:37:06,120 Speaker 3: that came out in March this year, and that's still 598 00:37:06,440 --> 00:37:09,960 Speaker 3: obviously out and about a bookstores and Lees and I 599 00:37:10,040 --> 00:37:14,560 Speaker 3: are always really open to receiving pictures from other women 600 00:37:14,600 --> 00:37:16,600 Speaker 3: who they have to be over forty though. If you're under, 601 00:37:16,719 --> 00:37:19,799 Speaker 3: if you're anything, aren't younger, sorry, kick you to the curb. 602 00:37:19,880 --> 00:37:22,120 Speaker 3: You've got to age. Get in line it, We've got 603 00:37:22,160 --> 00:37:24,439 Speaker 3: You've got a wait but yeah. On Instagram at Les 604 00:37:24,440 --> 00:37:26,640 Speaker 3: and Sarah or on our website, the forty Edit dot 605 00:37:26,680 --> 00:37:29,239 Speaker 3: com dot au. They're all all our contact details there. 606 00:37:29,840 --> 00:37:33,800 Speaker 1: Amazing Lis and Sarah. It's been so wonderful chatting to 607 00:37:33,880 --> 00:37:36,960 Speaker 1: you both and hearing more wisdom. So thank you so 608 00:37:37,160 --> 00:37:37,919 Speaker 1: much for your time. 609 00:37:38,440 --> 00:37:40,719 Speaker 2: Thanks Amantha, thank you for having us. 610 00:37:42,040 --> 00:37:45,160 Speaker 1: I love the advice that Lees and Sarah are received 611 00:37:45,280 --> 00:37:49,719 Speaker 1: about deciding and not sliding. I can definitely relate to 612 00:37:49,800 --> 00:37:53,279 Speaker 1: that in my forties, having changed a number of really 613 00:37:53,320 --> 00:37:56,440 Speaker 1: big things in my life, such as leaving my marriage, 614 00:37:56,920 --> 00:37:59,200 Speaker 1: moving to a new house in a new suburb, and 615 00:37:59,280 --> 00:38:02,640 Speaker 1: stepping down from the CEO role in my business, and 616 00:38:02,760 --> 00:38:07,200 Speaker 1: in deciding and not sliding, I feel much more fulfilled 617 00:38:07,440 --> 00:38:09,719 Speaker 1: in my life. And this is not to say that 618 00:38:09,760 --> 00:38:12,839 Speaker 1: there are no major stresses, because there are, but I'm 619 00:38:12,880 --> 00:38:16,040 Speaker 1: definitely so much happier because of the choices that I 620 00:38:16,120 --> 00:38:20,719 Speaker 1: have deliberately made. How I Work is produced by Inventing 621 00:38:20,880 --> 00:38:24,040 Speaker 1: with production support from Dead Set Studios. The producer for 622 00:38:24,120 --> 00:38:27,560 Speaker 1: this episode was Liam Riordan, and thank you to Matt Nimba, 623 00:38:27,600 --> 00:38:30,439 Speaker 1: who does the audio mix for every episode and makes 624 00:38:30,480 --> 00:38:33,160 Speaker 1: everything sound so much better than it would have otherwise. 625 00:38:33,760 --> 00:38:34,560 Speaker 1: See you next time.