1 00:00:00,520 --> 00:00:05,120 Speaker 1: Already and this is the Daily This is the Daily OS. 2 00:00:05,120 --> 00:00:16,040 Speaker 1: Oh now it makes sense. Good morning and welcome to 3 00:00:16,079 --> 00:00:18,880 Speaker 1: the Daily OS. It's Wednesday, the tenth of December. I'm 4 00:00:18,920 --> 00:00:21,919 Speaker 1: Billy fitz Simon's I'm Sam becauselsky Sam. Do you notice 5 00:00:22,000 --> 00:00:23,560 Speaker 1: something different about today? Ah? 6 00:00:23,680 --> 00:00:24,520 Speaker 2: No, I don't. 7 00:00:24,680 --> 00:00:26,600 Speaker 1: If you look around, there are no under sixteen year 8 00:00:26,600 --> 00:00:27,720 Speaker 1: olds on social media. 9 00:00:28,000 --> 00:00:29,720 Speaker 2: The hashtag sixty seven is quiet. 10 00:00:30,600 --> 00:00:32,040 Speaker 1: It's very quiet today. 11 00:00:32,120 --> 00:00:35,600 Speaker 2: A tumbleweed is flowing through and that. 12 00:00:35,600 --> 00:00:39,200 Speaker 1: Is because today is the day that Australia's world first 13 00:00:39,400 --> 00:00:43,360 Speaker 1: social media band for under sixteen has come into effect. 14 00:00:43,440 --> 00:00:43,840 Speaker 2: It's here. 15 00:00:44,240 --> 00:00:47,239 Speaker 1: This means that anyone under the age of sixteen is 16 00:00:47,320 --> 00:00:52,760 Speaker 1: banned from popular platforms like TikTok, Instagram, YouTube and Snapchat. 17 00:00:53,040 --> 00:00:56,640 Speaker 1: The snap streaks, they are no longer for the teenagers. 18 00:00:56,800 --> 00:00:58,640 Speaker 2: You're a snap streak is over. 19 00:00:59,000 --> 00:01:03,840 Speaker 1: Today. I interviewing the E Safety Commissioner, Julie Inmigrant about 20 00:01:03,880 --> 00:01:06,560 Speaker 1: why this law has come into effect and how it 21 00:01:06,640 --> 00:01:11,240 Speaker 1: will be enforced. 22 00:01:11,800 --> 00:01:15,080 Speaker 2: A really big day for a discussion that's been happening 23 00:01:15,160 --> 00:01:18,759 Speaker 2: in the technology and politics circles for a long time now. 24 00:01:19,040 --> 00:01:21,319 Speaker 2: Before we get into the chat you've had with the 25 00:01:21,360 --> 00:01:23,800 Speaker 2: E Safety Commissioner, Billy, can you just talk me through 26 00:01:23,840 --> 00:01:26,880 Speaker 2: what exactly an E Safety commissioner does, because it's quite 27 00:01:26,920 --> 00:01:28,440 Speaker 2: an unusual job title. 28 00:01:28,200 --> 00:01:31,840 Speaker 1: And it's also quite recent. It's only been about as 29 00:01:31,840 --> 00:01:34,920 Speaker 1: of the past ten years, and it actually is my 30 00:01:35,040 --> 00:01:38,560 Speaker 1: first question to Julian m grant what exactly it is 31 00:01:38,640 --> 00:01:40,600 Speaker 1: that she does, so let her explain. But I think 32 00:01:40,600 --> 00:01:43,720 Speaker 1: what you need to know is that the government appoints 33 00:01:44,000 --> 00:01:47,400 Speaker 1: her role and it is designed to protect Australians online 34 00:01:47,440 --> 00:01:50,280 Speaker 1: and to help enforce the rules of the legislation that 35 00:01:50,520 --> 00:01:51,560 Speaker 1: they come up with. 36 00:01:51,760 --> 00:01:53,560 Speaker 2: So it's not her job to come up with the laws. 37 00:01:53,760 --> 00:01:57,520 Speaker 1: No, she is technically independent from the government in that way. 38 00:01:57,920 --> 00:02:01,040 Speaker 1: You might recognize her name because she has been in 39 00:02:01,080 --> 00:02:04,720 Speaker 1: a legal fight with Elon Musk, who owns X. It 40 00:02:04,840 --> 00:02:09,200 Speaker 1: was specifically about content on X that was quite high 41 00:02:09,280 --> 00:02:11,760 Speaker 1: profile at the time, completely separate to this, but I 42 00:02:11,760 --> 00:02:15,240 Speaker 1: thought it was worth mentioning. But yeah, today it is 43 00:02:15,440 --> 00:02:19,520 Speaker 1: very significant legislation coming into effect, one where the world's 44 00:02:19,600 --> 00:02:23,160 Speaker 1: eyes really are watching what happens here. Like we said, 45 00:02:23,200 --> 00:02:25,400 Speaker 1: it's the first time that this has ever happened in 46 00:02:25,480 --> 00:02:29,120 Speaker 1: the world, so it'll be absolutely fascinating to see what 47 00:02:29,280 --> 00:02:29,920 Speaker 1: happens now. 48 00:02:30,040 --> 00:02:33,000 Speaker 2: Australia has a tendency in this space to kind of 49 00:02:33,360 --> 00:02:35,840 Speaker 2: push out in front on both sides of politics. I mean, 50 00:02:36,200 --> 00:02:38,680 Speaker 2: it was a liberal government that came out with the 51 00:02:38,720 --> 00:02:41,840 Speaker 2: first kind of code for big tech companies in paying 52 00:02:42,000 --> 00:02:44,800 Speaker 2: news publishers. It's now a labor government that's pushed forward 53 00:02:44,880 --> 00:02:47,960 Speaker 2: this under sixteens band. So it's kind of a thing 54 00:02:48,000 --> 00:02:50,200 Speaker 2: that we do as a country as we push against 55 00:02:50,240 --> 00:02:53,560 Speaker 2: tech giants. It's a really big day and Julian m 56 00:02:53,639 --> 00:02:56,840 Speaker 2: grant is literally almost the face of this change, at 57 00:02:56,960 --> 00:03:01,640 Speaker 2: least around the world as well. It was really interesting discussion, Billy. 58 00:03:01,639 --> 00:03:02,880 Speaker 2: I think let's get straight into it. 59 00:03:03,440 --> 00:03:05,720 Speaker 1: Julie mn Grand, thank you so much for joining the 60 00:03:05,800 --> 00:03:06,520 Speaker 1: Daily OS. 61 00:03:06,600 --> 00:03:07,520 Speaker 3: Thank you for having me. 62 00:03:07,840 --> 00:03:11,440 Speaker 1: You are the e Safety Commissioner. For anyone who doesn't 63 00:03:11,520 --> 00:03:13,639 Speaker 1: know what you do, do you want to just explain 64 00:03:13,800 --> 00:03:14,240 Speaker 1: the role? 65 00:03:14,680 --> 00:03:19,840 Speaker 3: Sure, I didn't come up with a name, but essentially 66 00:03:20,000 --> 00:03:24,080 Speaker 3: I am the independent regulator for Online Safety for Australia 67 00:03:24,720 --> 00:03:28,519 Speaker 3: and our overall mission is to help all Australians have safer, 68 00:03:28,680 --> 00:03:32,440 Speaker 3: more positive experiences online. When I took the role, or 69 00:03:32,520 --> 00:03:35,120 Speaker 3: was a one to the role in twenty sixteen, we 70 00:03:35,120 --> 00:03:38,160 Speaker 3: were the first online safety regulator in the world, and 71 00:03:38,240 --> 00:03:40,360 Speaker 3: for my first seven years we were the only one, 72 00:03:40,760 --> 00:03:44,200 Speaker 3: but that's changed drastically over the past two years and 73 00:03:44,400 --> 00:03:47,680 Speaker 3: now they're at least well over thirty Wow. 74 00:03:47,920 --> 00:03:51,200 Speaker 1: Yeah, and so how does your role interact with the government. 75 00:03:51,760 --> 00:03:57,440 Speaker 3: Well, I report up into the Minister of Communications. I 76 00:03:57,560 --> 00:04:02,000 Speaker 3: obviously work for the Minister of the day. Because I'm 77 00:04:02,040 --> 00:04:05,800 Speaker 3: an independent regulator, there's I'm at arm's length from government. 78 00:04:05,960 --> 00:04:10,520 Speaker 3: So the regulatory decisions I make are my own and 79 00:04:10,760 --> 00:04:14,680 Speaker 3: you know, sometimes I have opinions about policy or legislation 80 00:04:15,360 --> 00:04:18,600 Speaker 3: that the government may not like, but I do have 81 00:04:18,680 --> 00:04:22,479 Speaker 3: that independent voice. But you know, interestingly, the e Safety 82 00:04:22,480 --> 00:04:26,640 Speaker 3: Commissioner was created by the Abbott government when Malcolm Turnbull 83 00:04:26,920 --> 00:04:30,640 Speaker 3: was the Icteam Minister, and over time I've just had 84 00:04:30,680 --> 00:04:36,919 Speaker 3: different schemes and reforms and different regulatory tools layered on. 85 00:04:37,000 --> 00:04:40,200 Speaker 3: And I can talk about that if you're interested or not. 86 00:04:41,520 --> 00:04:44,039 Speaker 1: Well, so we're talking today because it is a day 87 00:04:44,040 --> 00:04:47,440 Speaker 1: that Australia is social media ban for those under sixteen 88 00:04:47,560 --> 00:04:50,479 Speaker 1: comes into effect. For anyone who's not quite familiar with it, 89 00:04:50,520 --> 00:04:52,800 Speaker 1: do you want to just explain exactly what it is? 90 00:04:53,120 --> 00:04:58,240 Speaker 3: Sure? I often compare our approach to online safety very 91 00:04:58,320 --> 00:05:02,360 Speaker 3: much like Australia has approached its success and water safety. 92 00:05:02,640 --> 00:05:05,440 Speaker 3: And if you go back to probably when your parents 93 00:05:05,440 --> 00:05:10,080 Speaker 3: were very young, there were tragic backyard drownings and swimming 94 00:05:10,120 --> 00:05:15,680 Speaker 3: pools in the backyard. So they mandated that fences be 95 00:05:15,760 --> 00:05:19,080 Speaker 3: put around every pool and they're backed with enforcement. That's 96 00:05:19,160 --> 00:05:22,279 Speaker 3: very similar to what schools I think did with the 97 00:05:22,440 --> 00:05:25,800 Speaker 3: school phone bands a couple of years ago. But when 98 00:05:25,839 --> 00:05:29,240 Speaker 3: they started talking about the whole idea of banning social 99 00:05:29,279 --> 00:05:33,000 Speaker 3: media or banning the Internet, I said, well, that's kind 100 00:05:33,040 --> 00:05:36,560 Speaker 3: of like trying to fence the entire ocean. That's an 101 00:05:36,600 --> 00:05:39,920 Speaker 3: almost futile exercise. Let's think about like, even when we 102 00:05:39,920 --> 00:05:42,680 Speaker 3: put fences around pools, we don't just throw our kids 103 00:05:42,720 --> 00:05:46,080 Speaker 3: in without giving them swimming lessons. We continue to supervise 104 00:05:46,120 --> 00:05:48,680 Speaker 3: them and when we go to the beach, we teach 105 00:05:48,720 --> 00:05:52,440 Speaker 3: them to swim between the flags, and we teach them 106 00:05:52,440 --> 00:05:55,520 Speaker 3: about rips, very much like algorithmic rips that can take 107 00:05:55,560 --> 00:05:59,520 Speaker 3: you out to see when they're predators. We put up 108 00:05:59,520 --> 00:06:01,840 Speaker 3: shark net. We do all of these things. We take 109 00:06:01,880 --> 00:06:04,080 Speaker 3: a holistic approach to safety, and I think we need 110 00:06:04,120 --> 00:06:07,480 Speaker 3: to do the same for online safety as well. 111 00:06:07,760 --> 00:06:11,160 Speaker 1: It's interesting the water analogy because I've heard people use 112 00:06:11,200 --> 00:06:14,640 Speaker 1: it in another way where they say, is this ban 113 00:06:14,960 --> 00:06:18,039 Speaker 1: the government just not teaching young people to swim at all? 114 00:06:18,600 --> 00:06:20,360 Speaker 1: Have you heard that used? 115 00:06:20,400 --> 00:06:24,640 Speaker 3: And I haven't, but I think I understand it that 116 00:06:25,160 --> 00:06:27,600 Speaker 3: maybe what they're saying is the only way that you 117 00:06:27,680 --> 00:06:31,360 Speaker 3: can learn those critical reasoning skills and build that digital 118 00:06:31,360 --> 00:06:35,080 Speaker 3: resilience is by being there and encountering the content and 119 00:06:35,120 --> 00:06:38,680 Speaker 3: the conduct. I think there are probably a few flaws 120 00:06:38,720 --> 00:06:42,400 Speaker 3: with that argument, only in that. I mean, we've been 121 00:06:42,400 --> 00:06:46,200 Speaker 3: doing digital and now algorithmic literacy for now that for 122 00:06:46,279 --> 00:06:47,840 Speaker 3: more than ten years. 123 00:06:48,240 --> 00:06:50,520 Speaker 1: In schools you may in schools, but. 124 00:06:50,480 --> 00:06:53,680 Speaker 3: Also on our website, we've got webinars. I mean the 125 00:06:53,680 --> 00:06:57,120 Speaker 3: most popular ones we're doing now are around adolescents and 126 00:06:57,160 --> 00:07:01,599 Speaker 3: algorithms and how you can cure your feed if there's 127 00:07:01,680 --> 00:07:03,760 Speaker 3: content that you don't want to see. 128 00:07:04,120 --> 00:07:06,839 Speaker 1: There is this line of thought that if there is 129 00:07:06,920 --> 00:07:10,880 Speaker 1: harmful content on social media, why not remove the harmful 130 00:07:10,960 --> 00:07:15,080 Speaker 1: content as opposed to removing young people. What's your response 131 00:07:15,160 --> 00:07:15,680 Speaker 1: to that. 132 00:07:16,040 --> 00:07:19,160 Speaker 3: I think it's a really interesting question, and if I 133 00:07:19,200 --> 00:07:23,400 Speaker 3: were to be honest, we're never going to cleanse the 134 00:07:23,440 --> 00:07:27,280 Speaker 3: Internet of terrible content. Just by virtue of the way 135 00:07:27,520 --> 00:07:31,400 Speaker 3: the Internet works. That doesn't mean we shouldn't try this 136 00:07:31,520 --> 00:07:36,920 Speaker 3: whole idea of user generated content UGC content is being 137 00:07:37,120 --> 00:07:41,480 Speaker 3: created every millisecond, really, so I get that argument. But 138 00:07:42,040 --> 00:07:46,360 Speaker 3: I think if you think about restrictions we have around 139 00:07:46,480 --> 00:07:51,560 Speaker 3: alcohol or cigarettes, it's not that you can never smoke 140 00:07:51,920 --> 00:07:55,280 Speaker 3: and you can never drink, but there is a physiological 141 00:07:55,360 --> 00:07:58,800 Speaker 3: age which it is considered maybe not healthier, but that 142 00:07:58,880 --> 00:08:01,040 Speaker 3: you can handle it more. And I think this is 143 00:08:01,120 --> 00:08:05,120 Speaker 3: the kind of decision the government is making around social media, 144 00:08:05,320 --> 00:08:09,440 Speaker 3: like it's just not fit for purpose for under sixteens. 145 00:08:09,800 --> 00:08:12,239 Speaker 3: And when I think about my own thirteen year old twins, 146 00:08:12,320 --> 00:08:16,680 Speaker 3: I think, h my son is kind of like not phased, 147 00:08:16,760 --> 00:08:20,120 Speaker 3: but this is really devastating for my daughter. She's really 148 00:08:20,160 --> 00:08:24,440 Speaker 3: distraught because a lot of her world happens on social media. 149 00:08:24,520 --> 00:08:28,400 Speaker 1: I'm so interested that your own daughter doesn't like this 150 00:08:28,960 --> 00:08:32,840 Speaker 1: band coming into effect. Yeah, that's an interesting dinner time conversation. 151 00:08:32,960 --> 00:08:35,800 Speaker 3: Well, I kind of have a little laboratory in my 152 00:08:35,920 --> 00:08:39,840 Speaker 3: own household because I've got three teenagers. My nineteen year 153 00:08:39,920 --> 00:08:43,600 Speaker 3: old is like, why wasn't this in place when I 154 00:08:43,720 --> 00:08:46,760 Speaker 3: was in high school? Like my life would have been easier. 155 00:08:46,800 --> 00:08:49,560 Speaker 3: And like I said, my son was unphased, but my 156 00:08:49,960 --> 00:08:51,880 Speaker 3: daughter's really struggling with it. 157 00:08:52,200 --> 00:08:55,520 Speaker 1: And does she try to convince you that the band 158 00:08:55,559 --> 00:08:56,600 Speaker 1: shouldn't come into effect. 159 00:08:56,760 --> 00:09:01,760 Speaker 3: Oh, she's tried. And even my at one point said, Mom, 160 00:09:01,800 --> 00:09:07,280 Speaker 3: if you ban roadblocks, will be pariahs. But I think 161 00:09:07,320 --> 00:09:10,120 Speaker 3: it's good because it gives me an empathetic lens. 162 00:09:10,840 --> 00:09:13,040 Speaker 1: There are early signs that a lot of young people 163 00:09:13,160 --> 00:09:16,960 Speaker 1: are flocking to apps that aren't on the ban list. 164 00:09:17,679 --> 00:09:21,040 Speaker 1: How do you decide which apps should be banned and 165 00:09:21,080 --> 00:09:21,840 Speaker 1: which shouldn't. 166 00:09:22,440 --> 00:09:26,200 Speaker 3: So this is a really interesting and maybe boring answer 167 00:09:26,240 --> 00:09:28,520 Speaker 3: for some of your users, But it all has to 168 00:09:28,559 --> 00:09:31,679 Speaker 3: do with the definitions in the legislation. I had to 169 00:09:31,760 --> 00:09:35,400 Speaker 3: use something called a soul and significant purpose test. So 170 00:09:35,480 --> 00:09:38,560 Speaker 3: if the soul or significant purpose of the app is 171 00:09:38,600 --> 00:09:43,400 Speaker 3: to encourage social interaction, then it falls into the list. 172 00:09:43,520 --> 00:09:45,560 Speaker 3: And then it has to have, you know, a couple 173 00:09:45,600 --> 00:09:48,920 Speaker 3: of different features. So what I decided was the most 174 00:09:49,040 --> 00:09:51,800 Speaker 3: fair thing to do was to develop a self assessment 175 00:09:51,800 --> 00:09:54,440 Speaker 3: tool for companies so that they could do it first. 176 00:09:54,559 --> 00:09:56,760 Speaker 3: But once this law came into place, you know, we 177 00:09:56,880 --> 00:10:00,360 Speaker 3: had Pinterests say we're not a social media site, we 178 00:10:00,480 --> 00:10:04,400 Speaker 3: are a visual search engine, and Snapp said, we're not 179 00:10:04,480 --> 00:10:08,440 Speaker 3: a social media site. No, we're a camerap And then 180 00:10:08,920 --> 00:10:11,840 Speaker 3: of course YouTube Scene that they're a video sharing platform, 181 00:10:12,120 --> 00:10:15,079 Speaker 3: which yes, is true, but they also encourage a creator 182 00:10:15,120 --> 00:10:19,520 Speaker 3: community and comments and interactions. So it was that social 183 00:10:19,600 --> 00:10:23,560 Speaker 3: interaction and then the deceptive and harmful design features that 184 00:10:24,000 --> 00:10:26,960 Speaker 3: helped us determine who was in and who was out. 185 00:10:27,160 --> 00:10:29,160 Speaker 1: This might sound like a weird example, but stay with me. 186 00:10:29,840 --> 00:10:33,720 Speaker 1: Spotify obviously you wouldn't typically consider them to be a 187 00:10:33,760 --> 00:10:38,280 Speaker 1: social media platform, but they have short form videos. Just 188 00:10:38,559 --> 00:10:42,079 Speaker 1: a few months ago they introduced a messaging feature. They 189 00:10:42,080 --> 00:10:46,120 Speaker 1: also have an algorithm that recommends you content. Something like 190 00:10:46,160 --> 00:10:51,079 Speaker 1: that where they are constantly iterating, reiterating, how does legislation 191 00:10:51,440 --> 00:10:55,800 Speaker 1: keep up with tech companies that are just moving so fast. 192 00:10:55,800 --> 00:10:59,240 Speaker 3: And moving fast and breaking things. Yeah, that is an 193 00:10:59,280 --> 00:11:03,600 Speaker 3: excellent and that is exactly why we went through this 194 00:11:03,720 --> 00:11:07,120 Speaker 3: kind of self assessment process and said there is going 195 00:11:07,200 --> 00:11:11,040 Speaker 3: to be a dynamic list because features and functionality are 196 00:11:11,080 --> 00:11:12,720 Speaker 3: being changed all the time. 197 00:11:13,280 --> 00:11:16,160 Speaker 1: When you say dynamic, do you mean it will change 198 00:11:16,280 --> 00:11:19,080 Speaker 1: like we could add yea social media apps, we could 199 00:11:19,080 --> 00:11:19,679 Speaker 1: remove some. 200 00:11:20,200 --> 00:11:23,559 Speaker 3: Well, you know interesting that you say that because some 201 00:11:23,600 --> 00:11:27,719 Speaker 3: of the platforms that were captured initially came up with 202 00:11:27,800 --> 00:11:30,440 Speaker 3: the ideas, well, what if we do stripped down version 203 00:11:30,960 --> 00:11:34,880 Speaker 3: of let's say Snapchat, where we take out the snapstreaks 204 00:11:34,920 --> 00:11:37,720 Speaker 3: and the snap maps and the ephemeral media and the 205 00:11:37,760 --> 00:11:42,600 Speaker 3: content stories, and we really are just a messaging app. 206 00:11:42,640 --> 00:11:45,680 Speaker 3: And I'm like, okay, I'm not sure that it fits 207 00:11:45,679 --> 00:11:48,000 Speaker 3: with the policy intent, but if you decide to do that, 208 00:11:48,520 --> 00:11:52,080 Speaker 3: we would have to assess that separately. But to give 209 00:11:52,080 --> 00:11:55,880 Speaker 3: you an example, Roadblocks is another case where I was like, okay, 210 00:11:56,559 --> 00:11:59,719 Speaker 3: it is an online gaming platform. Would the kids be 211 00:11:59,800 --> 00:12:03,000 Speaker 3: used seeing the chat if there wasn't the games? Probably not. 212 00:12:03,360 --> 00:12:06,920 Speaker 3: But they're introducing a new service called Moments, which looks 213 00:12:06,960 --> 00:12:11,360 Speaker 3: like stories, and they're positioning themselves as a metaverse platform. 214 00:12:12,080 --> 00:12:15,800 Speaker 3: So I said, hey, we're watching you. If you have 215 00:12:15,960 --> 00:12:19,360 Speaker 3: more online social interaction features, you may be in so. 216 00:12:19,280 --> 00:12:22,240 Speaker 1: They're not currently included, but you're saying yeah. 217 00:12:21,880 --> 00:12:25,400 Speaker 3: Based on changes change, And same with same with Spotify. 218 00:12:25,440 --> 00:12:27,160 Speaker 3: We are talking to Spotify, by the way. 219 00:12:27,600 --> 00:12:30,600 Speaker 1: Interesting good example, then yes. 220 00:12:30,600 --> 00:12:33,520 Speaker 3: Perfect, got you've got your finger on the puss. 221 00:12:33,800 --> 00:12:37,559 Speaker 1: I want to look at age verification technology, don't I 222 00:12:37,679 --> 00:12:40,720 Speaker 1: just take us through how age verification will work. 223 00:12:41,240 --> 00:12:45,640 Speaker 3: Yeah, So the broad category is age assurance technologies, and 224 00:12:45,679 --> 00:12:49,480 Speaker 3: so there are different levels of age assurance that can 225 00:12:49,520 --> 00:12:53,959 Speaker 3: be delivered by social media service. The very bottom level 226 00:12:54,120 --> 00:12:58,280 Speaker 3: is what we call age gating or self declaration. It's 227 00:12:58,559 --> 00:13:01,640 Speaker 3: it's kind of what we have had today or yesterday 228 00:13:02,320 --> 00:13:05,080 Speaker 3: where they say what is your age and you put 229 00:13:05,080 --> 00:13:07,760 Speaker 3: in whatever, and you can change it ten times and 230 00:13:07,800 --> 00:13:10,400 Speaker 3: they don't do anything about it. So we've said in 231 00:13:10,440 --> 00:13:13,720 Speaker 3: our regulatory guidance that's not acceptable. Then there are things 232 00:13:13,760 --> 00:13:17,480 Speaker 3: like facial age estimation, so there are technologies that will 233 00:13:17,520 --> 00:13:20,680 Speaker 3: basically take a scan of your face assess your age. 234 00:13:20,880 --> 00:13:24,559 Speaker 3: But a urification is at the very highest level, so 235 00:13:24,600 --> 00:13:29,600 Speaker 3: it's actually verifying that you are the person behind the 236 00:13:29,600 --> 00:13:32,560 Speaker 3: computer screen, and that usually you require something called a 237 00:13:32,640 --> 00:13:35,480 Speaker 3: liveness test where you take a selfie to show that 238 00:13:35,920 --> 00:13:36,640 Speaker 3: that is you. 239 00:13:37,160 --> 00:13:39,480 Speaker 1: And so, as of today, will we all need to 240 00:13:39,600 --> 00:13:42,560 Speaker 1: verify our age on these social media apps. 241 00:13:43,160 --> 00:13:47,520 Speaker 3: I have said that that is not reasonable because I 242 00:13:47,640 --> 00:13:50,960 Speaker 3: felt that if companies just said we've got a totally 243 00:13:51,200 --> 00:13:54,720 Speaker 3: age verify a whole user base, one that would be 244 00:13:54,800 --> 00:13:57,199 Speaker 3: very expensive for them, and I think a lot of 245 00:13:57,280 --> 00:14:01,560 Speaker 3: adults would feel that it's intrusive. What a number of 246 00:14:01,559 --> 00:14:05,200 Speaker 3: these major social media platforms have had in place for 247 00:14:05,280 --> 00:14:08,600 Speaker 3: at least a decade is something called age inference technologies. 248 00:14:08,840 --> 00:14:11,920 Speaker 3: So they're picking up all this behavioral data and signals. 249 00:14:11,920 --> 00:14:14,640 Speaker 3: It could be something as basic as, oh, you've had 250 00:14:14,800 --> 00:14:19,320 Speaker 3: a Facebook account for eight years, we can reasonably assume 251 00:14:19,600 --> 00:14:23,600 Speaker 3: that you're sixteen or over. But they can also see 252 00:14:23,640 --> 00:14:27,960 Speaker 3: things like, oh, this person is logging in before nine 253 00:14:28,000 --> 00:14:31,000 Speaker 3: o'clock and after three o'clock they might be at school. 254 00:14:31,280 --> 00:14:34,800 Speaker 3: Thirteen year olds usually talk to thirteen year olds. Natural 255 00:14:34,880 --> 00:14:38,480 Speaker 3: language processing and other AI tools will pick up things 256 00:14:38,600 --> 00:14:43,600 Speaker 3: like grammar, use of emojis, and acronyms, and that can 257 00:14:43,640 --> 00:14:46,040 Speaker 3: give them a very good indication of age. So they 258 00:14:46,080 --> 00:14:49,320 Speaker 3: put all of these indicators together and they already have 259 00:14:49,400 --> 00:14:52,760 Speaker 3: a pretty good behavioral and data profile on who you are. 260 00:14:53,160 --> 00:14:55,720 Speaker 1: If I can just lastly ask one question that is 261 00:14:55,840 --> 00:14:59,880 Speaker 1: a little bit off topic, YEP, a US congressional committee 262 00:14:59,880 --> 00:15:03,800 Speaker 1: has recently asked you to testify over concerns that Australia's 263 00:15:03,800 --> 00:15:09,800 Speaker 1: Online Safety Act is threatening Americans free speech, not to 264 00:15:09,840 --> 00:15:13,160 Speaker 1: do with a social media band completely separate. My understanding 265 00:15:13,280 --> 00:15:16,600 Speaker 1: is that they asked you to appear prior to the 266 00:15:16,680 --> 00:15:19,840 Speaker 1: second of December. What happened to that? 267 00:15:21,360 --> 00:15:25,440 Speaker 3: Yeah, so this is the chairman of the Judiciary Committee 268 00:15:25,720 --> 00:15:28,440 Speaker 3: in the House of Representatives, Jim Jordan, who's kind of 269 00:15:28,480 --> 00:15:34,120 Speaker 3: well known for holding a bunch of hearings against people 270 00:15:34,160 --> 00:15:40,360 Speaker 3: who he thinks is engaging in censorship, particularly of conservative voices, 271 00:15:40,920 --> 00:15:46,160 Speaker 3: and he asked for a voluntary video committee that where 272 00:15:46,320 --> 00:15:48,640 Speaker 3: you know he would try and interrogate me. So I 273 00:15:48,800 --> 00:15:52,400 Speaker 3: instead I just said, hey, I'm sending you a letter back. 274 00:15:53,840 --> 00:15:59,240 Speaker 3: I'm very busy with domestic responsibilities, but let me explain 275 00:16:00,320 --> 00:16:04,440 Speaker 3: why nothing we do in Australia violates Americans freedom of speech. 276 00:16:05,240 --> 00:16:08,760 Speaker 1: So you didn't testify before any committee. I have been 277 00:16:08,760 --> 00:16:10,160 Speaker 1: speaking to them. 278 00:16:10,200 --> 00:16:12,880 Speaker 3: I sent them a letter back. I haven't heard a response. 279 00:16:14,080 --> 00:16:18,160 Speaker 3: He may not like that response, but I've got a 280 00:16:18,880 --> 00:16:22,160 Speaker 3: job and that is to protect Australians. We're rolling out 281 00:16:22,200 --> 00:16:27,280 Speaker 3: a pretty big policy today. I'm rolling out huge new 282 00:16:27,320 --> 00:16:30,560 Speaker 3: codes that don't exist anywhere else in the world. And 283 00:16:30,600 --> 00:16:36,080 Speaker 3: then we've got these protections for AI chatbots, protect. 284 00:16:35,960 --> 00:16:38,040 Speaker 1: Stuff going on. We got We've got We've. 285 00:16:37,840 --> 00:16:41,480 Speaker 3: Got a busy agenda and I don't feel like being 286 00:16:41,520 --> 00:16:44,480 Speaker 3: interrogated and being put all over Fox News. Thank you 287 00:16:44,600 --> 00:16:46,640 Speaker 3: very much, he. 288 00:16:46,720 --> 00:16:49,480 Speaker 1: Safety Commissioner, thank you so much for joining the Daily OS. 289 00:16:49,480 --> 00:16:51,080 Speaker 3: Thank you for having me a. 290 00:16:51,120 --> 00:16:53,720 Speaker 2: Big thank you to the Safety Commissioner for joining us 291 00:16:53,720 --> 00:16:55,160 Speaker 2: on the Daily oas this morning, Billy, that was a 292 00:16:55,160 --> 00:16:55,680 Speaker 2: great chat. 293 00:16:55,880 --> 00:16:57,680 Speaker 1: Thank you. And before we go, I have one thing 294 00:16:57,720 --> 00:17:01,120 Speaker 1: to bring up. Yesterday on the podcast, Zara and I 295 00:17:01,120 --> 00:17:04,679 Speaker 1: did an episode on the Netflix takeover of Warner Bros. 296 00:17:04,760 --> 00:17:06,679 Speaker 1: You did, but I don't know if you just noticed, 297 00:17:06,680 --> 00:17:10,200 Speaker 1: but apparently apparently you can't call it warn of Bros. 298 00:17:10,320 --> 00:17:11,520 Speaker 2: It's just categorically wrong. 299 00:17:11,600 --> 00:17:17,520 Speaker 1: So we got overwhelming feedback that it's not Warner Bros. 300 00:17:17,520 --> 00:17:20,240 Speaker 1: When you're speaking it out loud, it's Warner Brothers. Yes, 301 00:17:20,600 --> 00:17:23,640 Speaker 1: but apparently it is Warner Bros. Where you're writing it. 302 00:17:23,760 --> 00:17:25,639 Speaker 2: I take one day to go to a friend's wedding 303 00:17:25,720 --> 00:17:28,480 Speaker 2: and I come back to absolute anarchy. Who would have 304 00:17:28,520 --> 00:17:29,240 Speaker 2: known that a. 305 00:17:29,200 --> 00:17:31,240 Speaker 1: Lot of people I've never heard that in my life. 306 00:17:31,280 --> 00:17:33,359 Speaker 2: Well, that's the thing with the beautiful relationship we have 307 00:17:33,440 --> 00:17:35,800 Speaker 2: with our audience is that it's this beautiful two way 308 00:17:35,840 --> 00:17:38,960 Speaker 2: conversation where you guys clearly let Billy and Zara know 309 00:17:39,040 --> 00:17:41,960 Speaker 2: that it's not the Bros. It's the Brothers, and I 310 00:17:41,960 --> 00:17:43,399 Speaker 2: think that story is going to come back into the 311 00:17:43,440 --> 00:17:46,760 Speaker 2: headlines because that is not a done deal anymore. So, yes, 312 00:17:46,840 --> 00:17:47,760 Speaker 2: Warner Brothers, it is. 313 00:17:48,000 --> 00:17:50,680 Speaker 1: We do apologize to the Bros. We will never make 314 00:17:50,720 --> 00:17:51,440 Speaker 1: that mistake again. 315 00:17:51,480 --> 00:17:53,320 Speaker 2: On behalf of the Bros and the Brothers. I forgive you, 316 00:17:53,960 --> 00:17:54,399 Speaker 2: thank you. 317 00:17:55,160 --> 00:17:57,359 Speaker 1: That's all we have time for today. We will be 318 00:17:57,480 --> 00:18:00,760 Speaker 1: back this afternoon with your evening headlines. Until then, have 319 00:18:00,880 --> 00:18:01,480 Speaker 1: a great day. 320 00:18:05,640 --> 00:18:08,000 Speaker 2: My name is Lily Maddon and I'm a proud Arunda 321 00:18:08,200 --> 00:18:10,760 Speaker 2: Bunjelung Kalkudin woman from Gadighl country. 322 00:18:11,600 --> 00:18:14,720 Speaker 1: The Daily oz acknowledges that this podcast is recorded on 323 00:18:14,760 --> 00:18:17,240 Speaker 1: the lands of the Gadighl people and pays respect to 324 00:18:17,320 --> 00:18:20,640 Speaker 1: all Aboriginal and torrest Rate island and nations. We pay 325 00:18:20,680 --> 00:18:23,600 Speaker 1: our respects to the first peoples of these countries, both 326 00:18:23,680 --> 00:18:24,560 Speaker 1: past and present.