1 00:00:00,680 --> 00:00:04,960 Speaker 1: Hello there, it's Amantha. I'm currently on a Christmas break, 2 00:00:05,000 --> 00:00:08,479 Speaker 1: so I've handpicked a bunch of my favorite episodes from 3 00:00:08,520 --> 00:00:11,960 Speaker 1: the last year to share with you. Okay, on with 4 00:00:12,119 --> 00:00:17,640 Speaker 1: today's best of episode. Tell me if this sounds like you. 5 00:00:17,640 --> 00:00:22,239 Speaker 1: You've got endless emails to reply to, meetings backing onto meetings, 6 00:00:22,720 --> 00:00:26,280 Speaker 1: that next report to write, customers or clients demanding your 7 00:00:26,280 --> 00:00:29,000 Speaker 1: time urgently, and then there's everything at home. 8 00:00:30,080 --> 00:00:33,159 Speaker 2: Can you relate to that? And I mean, how are 9 00:00:33,159 --> 00:00:34,440 Speaker 2: you supposed to fit it all in? 10 00:00:35,240 --> 00:00:38,800 Speaker 1: If you're anything like me, you immediately start hunting for 11 00:00:38,880 --> 00:00:43,520 Speaker 1: the cool news scheduling software or productivity app. But according 12 00:00:43,560 --> 00:00:47,839 Speaker 1: to Guardian journalist and author Oliver Berkman, maybe it's actually 13 00:00:47,880 --> 00:00:51,760 Speaker 1: time to stop trying out new tools and systems. Oliver 14 00:00:52,080 --> 00:00:57,040 Speaker 1: is a self professed productivity nerd, and he believes that 15 00:00:57,120 --> 00:01:00,920 Speaker 1: our fixation on the next brilliant organizational see SYSM might 16 00:01:01,160 --> 00:01:04,319 Speaker 1: make us feel like we're getting on top of things, 17 00:01:04,520 --> 00:01:07,600 Speaker 1: but it could actually come at the cost of getting 18 00:01:07,640 --> 00:01:12,199 Speaker 1: the truly important things done. So how can we learn 19 00:01:12,280 --> 00:01:15,640 Speaker 1: to prioritize what really matters? And how can we make 20 00:01:15,720 --> 00:01:19,640 Speaker 1: choices that enlarge us rather than diminish us? And why 21 00:01:19,720 --> 00:01:28,080 Speaker 1: should we actually avoid trying to get everything done. My 22 00:01:28,200 --> 00:01:31,679 Speaker 1: name is doctor Amantha Imber. I'm an organizational psychologist and 23 00:01:31,720 --> 00:01:35,480 Speaker 1: the founder of behavioral science consultancy Inventium, and this is 24 00:01:35,520 --> 00:01:38,280 Speaker 1: how I work a show about how to help you 25 00:01:38,560 --> 00:01:43,400 Speaker 1: do your best work. Oliver Berkman just released his latest 26 00:01:43,400 --> 00:01:47,280 Speaker 1: book and it's called four thousand Weeks. 27 00:01:46,920 --> 00:01:48,760 Speaker 2: So I wanted to ask him. 28 00:01:48,640 --> 00:01:51,320 Speaker 1: Why call a book four thousand weeks? 29 00:01:52,080 --> 00:01:55,880 Speaker 3: Four Thousand weeks is the approximate amount of time that 30 00:01:55,920 --> 00:01:58,360 Speaker 3: you have on the planet if you live to be eighty. 31 00:01:58,760 --> 00:02:01,600 Speaker 3: It's a little bit the precise number is a little 32 00:02:01,640 --> 00:02:06,120 Speaker 3: bit more than four thousand. And this was a calculation 33 00:02:06,240 --> 00:02:09,440 Speaker 3: that I just sort of made independently. I mean, turns 34 00:02:09,480 --> 00:02:11,280 Speaker 3: out I was far from the first, of course, but 35 00:02:11,680 --> 00:02:14,720 Speaker 3: I sort of just made it independently a few years 36 00:02:14,760 --> 00:02:17,960 Speaker 3: ago when I was pondering these questions of the shortness 37 00:02:18,000 --> 00:02:20,480 Speaker 3: of life and had a sort of a meltdown in 38 00:02:20,520 --> 00:02:24,560 Speaker 3: response to it. I mean, there's something horrifying about expressing 39 00:02:24,600 --> 00:02:29,240 Speaker 3: it in those terms. I hope that it's not the 40 00:02:29,280 --> 00:02:31,120 Speaker 3: kind of horror that just causes people to not want 41 00:02:31,120 --> 00:02:32,600 Speaker 3: to have anything to do with this book, because I 42 00:02:32,639 --> 00:02:38,120 Speaker 3: promise that if you look inside. My goal is to 43 00:02:38,160 --> 00:02:40,280 Speaker 3: explain how, in some ways this is a relief and 44 00:02:40,320 --> 00:02:42,840 Speaker 3: a reason to stop trying to do impossible things and 45 00:02:42,880 --> 00:02:46,160 Speaker 3: to focus instead on getting round to what matters. But 46 00:02:46,240 --> 00:02:49,840 Speaker 3: not with a kind of panicky white knuckle Oh my goodness, 47 00:02:49,840 --> 00:02:51,520 Speaker 3: I've got to seize the day because we only have 48 00:02:51,600 --> 00:02:54,280 Speaker 3: so little time. So it's a little bit of a 49 00:02:54,320 --> 00:02:57,280 Speaker 3: bait and switch. Maybe there's something sort of shocking about 50 00:02:57,280 --> 00:03:02,080 Speaker 3: the title, but I hope that the book is more 51 00:03:02,800 --> 00:03:06,880 Speaker 3: liberating and empowering than shocking. I guess we'll find out 52 00:03:06,880 --> 00:03:08,040 Speaker 3: if that was a clever decision. 53 00:03:09,919 --> 00:03:13,919 Speaker 1: I do want to talk about I guess prioritization because 54 00:03:13,960 --> 00:03:18,440 Speaker 1: I've read four thousand Weeks and I loved it, and 55 00:03:18,480 --> 00:03:21,000 Speaker 1: I also found it very challenging as well, because I 56 00:03:21,000 --> 00:03:24,680 Speaker 1: feel like it's kind of almost an anti productivity book 57 00:03:24,720 --> 00:03:27,560 Speaker 1: for productivity geeks, of which I am one. And it 58 00:03:27,600 --> 00:03:30,160 Speaker 1: sounds like you are a recovering productivity geek. 59 00:03:30,240 --> 00:03:30,880 Speaker 2: Is that fair to say? 60 00:03:31,160 --> 00:03:34,280 Speaker 3: Yes? Absolutely, yeah, so not even that recovering. 61 00:03:34,600 --> 00:03:36,960 Speaker 1: Not even that recovering. Okay, so we're like, we're kind of, 62 00:03:36,960 --> 00:03:38,160 Speaker 1: you know, amongst friends here. 63 00:03:38,200 --> 00:03:38,800 Speaker 2: That's good. 64 00:03:39,480 --> 00:03:43,400 Speaker 1: So you in the book, you talk about how you 65 00:03:44,000 --> 00:03:47,560 Speaker 1: thought of yourself as the kind of person who gets things. 66 00:03:47,320 --> 00:03:51,880 Speaker 2: Done, and then like you became clear that the things. 67 00:03:51,600 --> 00:03:55,360 Speaker 1: That you got done most diligently were the unimportant ones. 68 00:03:55,520 --> 00:03:57,600 Speaker 2: Well, the important ones got postponed. 69 00:03:57,720 --> 00:04:00,240 Speaker 1: And I feel like that is something that a lot 70 00:04:00,280 --> 00:04:01,840 Speaker 1: of people are going to be able to relate to. 71 00:04:01,920 --> 00:04:03,360 Speaker 2: But I wanted to know, for you, how did you 72 00:04:03,400 --> 00:04:05,040 Speaker 2: figure out that this was happening. 73 00:04:06,080 --> 00:04:09,920 Speaker 3: I mean, mainly, you just look at whatever fancy you 74 00:04:10,360 --> 00:04:15,480 Speaker 3: to do list organizational system you've implemented, and you see 75 00:04:15,520 --> 00:04:17,479 Speaker 3: that the things that have been crossed off, or the 76 00:04:18,440 --> 00:04:21,560 Speaker 3: you know, post its that have been successfully moved across 77 00:04:21,640 --> 00:04:26,359 Speaker 3: the columns, or whatever whatever system you're using, that a 78 00:04:26,440 --> 00:04:29,719 Speaker 3: sort of huge amount of stuff has been done in 79 00:04:29,720 --> 00:04:33,400 Speaker 3: the last week, and it kind of never was the 80 00:04:33,440 --> 00:04:36,400 Speaker 3: stuff that you know, deep down was the most important 81 00:04:36,880 --> 00:04:38,760 Speaker 3: to do. I mean, I write in the book about 82 00:04:38,760 --> 00:04:42,800 Speaker 3: this the way that like, you know, there's a whole 83 00:04:42,800 --> 00:04:44,200 Speaker 3: load of reasons for it, but I think a very 84 00:04:44,240 --> 00:04:46,880 Speaker 3: simple way that people will understand it very easily is 85 00:04:47,000 --> 00:04:49,160 Speaker 3: just that, you know, we want a feeling of productivity, 86 00:04:49,240 --> 00:04:51,640 Speaker 3: especially if we're productivity geeks. We want to get through 87 00:04:51,640 --> 00:04:54,600 Speaker 3: our to do list, so naturally we gravitate towards the 88 00:04:54,640 --> 00:04:58,160 Speaker 3: things that it's easy to process. We maybe shy away 89 00:04:58,200 --> 00:05:00,680 Speaker 3: from the things that are challenging or inti dating. But 90 00:05:01,200 --> 00:05:03,719 Speaker 3: it's the things that are challenging are intimidating that tend 91 00:05:03,720 --> 00:05:06,600 Speaker 3: to matter the most. That's why they're challenging and intimidating, 92 00:05:06,640 --> 00:05:09,520 Speaker 3: because the stakes are higher, and you know, you want 93 00:05:09,520 --> 00:05:12,960 Speaker 3: to write this chapter well and you want this difficult 94 00:05:13,000 --> 00:05:16,480 Speaker 3: conversation with somebody to have a good result. I mean, 95 00:05:16,600 --> 00:05:19,240 Speaker 3: it's it's so that I find this with email as 96 00:05:19,240 --> 00:05:23,080 Speaker 3: a really good example, right, I mean emails that fundamentally 97 00:05:23,160 --> 00:05:26,280 Speaker 3: don't really matter from people who I don't particularly care 98 00:05:26,360 --> 00:05:29,840 Speaker 3: about in the professional context, someone you know I don't want, 99 00:05:30,160 --> 00:05:32,600 Speaker 3: don't I don't want to be rude in stuggings for examples, 100 00:05:32,600 --> 00:05:36,599 Speaker 3: but like you know, some very purely administrative email about 101 00:05:36,640 --> 00:05:39,440 Speaker 3: something I'm trying to figure out, very easy to respond to. 102 00:05:40,160 --> 00:05:42,760 Speaker 3: If someone who's reading my news letter sends me a 103 00:05:44,000 --> 00:05:48,120 Speaker 3: sort of long and involved email that's really interesting and 104 00:05:48,200 --> 00:05:50,000 Speaker 3: feels like it needs a personal response, or if an 105 00:05:50,000 --> 00:05:53,360 Speaker 3: old friend of mine gets in touch with the news update. Right, 106 00:05:53,400 --> 00:05:55,240 Speaker 3: these are my priorities, Like, that's what I want to 107 00:05:55,240 --> 00:05:57,520 Speaker 3: spend my life doing, at least when it comes to email. 108 00:05:58,200 --> 00:06:01,280 Speaker 3: But then it's so easy to fall into what I 109 00:06:01,320 --> 00:06:03,240 Speaker 3: called when I first read about it, the importance trap. 110 00:06:03,279 --> 00:06:05,680 Speaker 3: You know, you say, well, okay, for those things, I 111 00:06:05,720 --> 00:06:08,919 Speaker 3: really need attention and time, and I need focus, and 112 00:06:08,960 --> 00:06:11,160 Speaker 3: I need to not have all these other little sort 113 00:06:11,200 --> 00:06:13,640 Speaker 3: of nonsense tasks tugging at my attention. So I'm going 114 00:06:13,680 --> 00:06:16,600 Speaker 3: to focus for now, I'm clearing the decks, and tomorrow 115 00:06:16,720 --> 00:06:19,280 Speaker 3: or this afternoon or or sometime soon, then I'm going 116 00:06:19,320 --> 00:06:22,480 Speaker 3: to have this wonderful time when I do what really counts. 117 00:06:23,160 --> 00:06:26,720 Speaker 3: And you know, first of all, it just never arrives. 118 00:06:27,160 --> 00:06:30,719 Speaker 3: But secondly, getting more and more efficient at clearing the 119 00:06:30,760 --> 00:06:34,800 Speaker 3: decks sort of postpones even further the time at which 120 00:06:35,000 --> 00:06:38,119 Speaker 3: it arrives, because, as I say a couple of times 121 00:06:38,120 --> 00:06:39,320 Speaker 3: in the book, you know, we live in a world 122 00:06:39,320 --> 00:06:42,440 Speaker 3: of infinite inputs. There isn't an end to the number 123 00:06:42,440 --> 00:06:44,120 Speaker 3: of things that can come and fill the decks. The 124 00:06:44,160 --> 00:06:47,000 Speaker 3: number of emails you can receive, the number of demands 125 00:06:47,040 --> 00:06:50,680 Speaker 3: your boss can make of you, the number of career 126 00:06:50,720 --> 00:06:53,839 Speaker 3: goals you might have for yourself, bucket list places to visit, whatever, 127 00:06:53,880 --> 00:06:57,200 Speaker 3: They're all infinite. So if you get better and better 128 00:06:57,200 --> 00:07:00,960 Speaker 3: and better at processing them, you're just going to feel busier. 129 00:07:00,960 --> 00:07:02,120 Speaker 3: You're never going to get to the end of them. 130 00:07:02,160 --> 00:07:04,240 Speaker 3: And if you're focusing when you do that on the 131 00:07:04,279 --> 00:07:06,919 Speaker 3: least important ones, you're going to find that you just, 132 00:07:07,360 --> 00:07:10,000 Speaker 3: you know, your lists fill up with more and more 133 00:07:10,320 --> 00:07:13,120 Speaker 3: of that stuff. Someone's going to ask you to do something. 134 00:07:13,120 --> 00:07:15,320 Speaker 3: And because you're not thinking in terms of trade offs, 135 00:07:15,320 --> 00:07:17,120 Speaker 3: because you're not thinking, well, what am I going to 136 00:07:17,160 --> 00:07:20,720 Speaker 3: have to not do in order to make time for this? 137 00:07:20,880 --> 00:07:24,280 Speaker 3: Because I am finite and the inputs are infinite. Because 138 00:07:24,320 --> 00:07:26,960 Speaker 3: you're not thinking in terms of like which thing am 139 00:07:27,000 --> 00:07:29,120 Speaker 3: I going to neglect in order to do the other thing? 140 00:07:29,480 --> 00:07:30,960 Speaker 3: You're just going to say yes to more and more 141 00:07:30,960 --> 00:07:33,880 Speaker 3: and more and more things. Your job may make it compulsory, 142 00:07:33,960 --> 00:07:35,200 Speaker 3: you know, for you to say yes to more and 143 00:07:35,200 --> 00:07:37,160 Speaker 3: more and more things, but the result is going to 144 00:07:37,200 --> 00:07:40,640 Speaker 3: be that the most important stuff sort of gets slips 145 00:07:40,680 --> 00:07:42,120 Speaker 3: away over the horizon. 146 00:07:42,600 --> 00:07:44,680 Speaker 2: How do you decline to clear the decks? What does 147 00:07:44,720 --> 00:07:46,000 Speaker 2: that look like in practice for you? 148 00:07:46,920 --> 00:07:48,960 Speaker 3: Well, I'm really careful in the book, I don't want 149 00:07:49,000 --> 00:07:51,560 Speaker 3: to imply that anyone, you know, even someone in a 150 00:07:51,560 --> 00:07:54,720 Speaker 3: relatively sort of privileged self employed position like me, but 151 00:07:54,840 --> 00:07:59,080 Speaker 3: really anyone, very few of us have the choice of just, 152 00:07:59,240 --> 00:08:02,320 Speaker 3: you know, walking away from an inbox that's filling up. 153 00:08:02,320 --> 00:08:05,760 Speaker 3: I don't. I'm sure you don't, and it's going to 154 00:08:05,760 --> 00:08:08,800 Speaker 3: be even less likely that people in more conventionally shaped 155 00:08:09,440 --> 00:08:14,120 Speaker 3: jobs have that ability. Instead. What I'm talking about is 156 00:08:14,120 --> 00:08:16,640 Speaker 3: two things. One is a sort of a psychological stance, 157 00:08:16,800 --> 00:08:21,440 Speaker 3: and then I can talk about practical implementation. The psychological 158 00:08:21,480 --> 00:08:25,600 Speaker 3: stance is just this idea that I think what we 159 00:08:25,640 --> 00:08:28,600 Speaker 3: should be trying to do when it comes to the 160 00:08:28,640 --> 00:08:31,600 Speaker 3: surplus of information and of tasks and all the rest 161 00:08:31,680 --> 00:08:37,839 Speaker 3: of it in the modern world is cultivating some tolerance 162 00:08:37,960 --> 00:08:42,400 Speaker 3: of the discomfort associated with how much there is and 163 00:08:42,400 --> 00:08:47,880 Speaker 3: how overwhelming it feels, instead of constantly scrambling to eradicate 164 00:08:48,160 --> 00:08:50,720 Speaker 3: the discomfort. Because if you do that, at least in 165 00:08:50,760 --> 00:08:52,800 Speaker 3: my case and I think quite a few other people's, 166 00:08:54,000 --> 00:08:56,480 Speaker 3: if what you're chasing is a feeling of control and 167 00:08:56,520 --> 00:08:58,719 Speaker 3: a feeling of like being in the driver's seat and 168 00:08:58,760 --> 00:09:02,480 Speaker 3: finally having your life working order, but you're doing it 169 00:09:02,480 --> 00:09:05,360 Speaker 3: in this context where there's no limit to what can 170 00:09:05,400 --> 00:09:09,640 Speaker 3: come in to need doing, then the only effect of 171 00:09:09,720 --> 00:09:13,160 Speaker 3: that is that you never get around to the things 172 00:09:13,160 --> 00:09:15,480 Speaker 3: that you care about the most. If you can cultivate 173 00:09:15,600 --> 00:09:19,480 Speaker 3: some sense of you know, okay, there's a lot of 174 00:09:20,520 --> 00:09:23,840 Speaker 3: things I, on some level should, in quotes, be doing 175 00:09:23,840 --> 00:09:26,800 Speaker 3: with my time, but I can only ever do one 176 00:09:26,880 --> 00:09:30,599 Speaker 3: thing with each minute, hour, moment, then it's sort of 177 00:09:30,600 --> 00:09:33,560 Speaker 3: a given right. It's math. It's just maths that there's 178 00:09:33,600 --> 00:09:35,520 Speaker 3: going to be lots of things that you're not doing 179 00:09:36,000 --> 00:09:39,960 Speaker 3: every time you choose to do a thing, and to 180 00:09:40,000 --> 00:09:42,000 Speaker 3: the extent that you can be okay with that, you 181 00:09:42,040 --> 00:09:43,960 Speaker 3: can focus on the thing that matters. If you're not 182 00:09:44,000 --> 00:09:45,800 Speaker 3: okay with it, that's when you start trying to sort 183 00:09:45,800 --> 00:09:49,800 Speaker 3: of multitask as an anxiety as a coping mechanism, as 184 00:09:49,800 --> 00:09:53,959 Speaker 3: an anti anxiety mechanism. One really simple way to handle 185 00:09:53,960 --> 00:09:56,400 Speaker 3: this is just in terms of the structure of your day. 186 00:09:56,400 --> 00:09:59,400 Speaker 3: If you have this freedom over your schedule to make 187 00:09:59,440 --> 00:10:03,959 Speaker 3: sure that things like processing your inbox and processing your 188 00:10:04,080 --> 00:10:09,679 Speaker 3: intray or your sort of digital equivalence of intrays happens 189 00:10:10,040 --> 00:10:11,920 Speaker 3: at the end of the day instead of at the 190 00:10:11,960 --> 00:10:15,360 Speaker 3: beginning of the day, and happens on a fixed schedule, 191 00:10:15,400 --> 00:10:17,959 Speaker 3: so that you sort of give it an hour or 192 00:10:18,040 --> 00:10:20,800 Speaker 3: two hours or half an hour depending on your position, 193 00:10:21,679 --> 00:10:23,400 Speaker 3: and then you sort of walk away from it and 194 00:10:23,440 --> 00:10:26,680 Speaker 3: you sort of train that muscle of saying, Okay, this 195 00:10:26,800 --> 00:10:29,760 Speaker 3: is going to get ninety minutes of my attention today 196 00:10:30,240 --> 00:10:32,600 Speaker 3: and then it's going to get nineteen minutes tomorrow. And 197 00:10:33,280 --> 00:10:34,760 Speaker 3: if I get a rhythm up there, you know you're 198 00:10:34,800 --> 00:10:36,800 Speaker 3: going to stay probably on top of most of the 199 00:10:36,840 --> 00:10:38,880 Speaker 3: things that you need to stay on top of. But 200 00:10:38,920 --> 00:10:42,640 Speaker 3: you're not going to be in this kind of Sisyphian 201 00:10:42,840 --> 00:10:45,360 Speaker 3: struggle to get to the top of a mountain that 202 00:10:45,400 --> 00:10:47,920 Speaker 3: you're never going to be able to get to the 203 00:10:47,920 --> 00:10:51,440 Speaker 3: top of because you're sort of saying from the beginning, Okay, 204 00:10:51,520 --> 00:10:53,520 Speaker 3: it's just going to be an hour of my day 205 00:10:54,040 --> 00:10:57,839 Speaker 3: or whatever it should be. And I think that's a 206 00:10:57,920 --> 00:11:03,120 Speaker 3: much more sort of sane way of dealing with the 207 00:11:03,160 --> 00:11:04,200 Speaker 3: infinite inputs. 208 00:11:04,679 --> 00:11:07,480 Speaker 1: Yes, so what does what does it look like when 209 00:11:07,480 --> 00:11:09,280 Speaker 1: you're in your inbox? 210 00:11:09,400 --> 00:11:11,160 Speaker 2: How are you approaching things? 211 00:11:11,559 --> 00:11:13,640 Speaker 3: Yeah, on my on my best days, I am going 212 00:11:13,720 --> 00:11:16,680 Speaker 3: to be saying, you know, I have an approximate plan 213 00:11:16,800 --> 00:11:21,640 Speaker 3: for the day, sort of time boxed, and I have 214 00:11:22,080 --> 00:11:26,440 Speaker 3: a checklist of certain kinds of tough that I aim 215 00:11:26,520 --> 00:11:31,960 Speaker 3: to do daily, of which overwhelmingly you know, processing some 216 00:11:32,000 --> 00:11:36,880 Speaker 3: email is the is the biggest it's the biggest consumer 217 00:11:36,880 --> 00:11:39,600 Speaker 3: of time, and I'll just be in my inbox for 218 00:11:39,600 --> 00:11:41,640 Speaker 3: that amount of time. I have literally have a little 219 00:11:41,679 --> 00:11:44,400 Speaker 3: digital kitchen timer that I will set and that will 220 00:11:44,400 --> 00:11:48,640 Speaker 3: count down, and I'll and I'll be aiming to get 221 00:11:48,679 --> 00:11:51,120 Speaker 3: stuff out of the inbox, either just by replying if 222 00:11:51,160 --> 00:11:53,080 Speaker 3: that's all it needs, if it needs to go into 223 00:11:53,080 --> 00:11:56,400 Speaker 3: my task management system, I'll try to sort of take 224 00:11:56,440 --> 00:11:58,320 Speaker 3: it out of there. In other words, I'm not like 225 00:11:58,440 --> 00:12:02,400 Speaker 3: running my life out of my inbox, where everything from 226 00:12:02,640 --> 00:12:07,280 Speaker 3: missives from friends, urgent things from editors, and you know, 227 00:12:08,559 --> 00:12:13,560 Speaker 3: advertisements from some restaurant that I gave my email address 228 00:12:13,640 --> 00:12:17,360 Speaker 3: to three years ago are all mixed and competing for 229 00:12:17,400 --> 00:12:23,240 Speaker 3: my attention. It's a place that I'm going to take 230 00:12:23,280 --> 00:12:27,360 Speaker 3: things out of, either because the reply is all it's needed, 231 00:12:27,440 --> 00:12:30,720 Speaker 3: or because it goes into my wider system, or in 232 00:12:30,840 --> 00:12:34,079 Speaker 3: many cases of course, it just gets deleted, or it's 233 00:12:34,120 --> 00:12:37,440 Speaker 3: an email newsletter. I read there and then and take 234 00:12:37,480 --> 00:12:40,959 Speaker 3: bits from if I'm interested, otherwise file away and then 235 00:12:41,040 --> 00:12:42,920 Speaker 3: stop when that timer stop. I mean, this is the 236 00:12:42,960 --> 00:12:45,439 Speaker 3: hard part. The hard part is training yourself to sort 237 00:12:45,480 --> 00:12:48,199 Speaker 3: of once you're on a roll and you're like, oh, 238 00:12:48,240 --> 00:12:49,640 Speaker 3: if I just carried on a bit more, I might 239 00:12:49,800 --> 00:12:51,600 Speaker 3: get to the I might get inbox zero, you know, 240 00:12:51,920 --> 00:12:55,679 Speaker 3: depending on the state of your inbox, actually get Actually 241 00:12:55,720 --> 00:12:58,640 Speaker 3: stopping is the part that is hard, But I think 242 00:12:58,640 --> 00:13:02,280 Speaker 3: it's really important because your culting there this in the 243 00:13:02,720 --> 00:13:07,560 Speaker 3: act of stopping, you're cultivating this patience, this this tolerance 244 00:13:07,559 --> 00:13:10,160 Speaker 3: of the discomfort and this willingness to say like, Okay, 245 00:13:10,960 --> 00:13:14,239 Speaker 3: my job is not to try to do something literally impossible, 246 00:13:14,280 --> 00:13:16,560 Speaker 3: which is to you know, get my arms around an 247 00:13:16,600 --> 00:13:20,280 Speaker 3: infinite quantity. My job is to spend a sort of 248 00:13:20,360 --> 00:13:25,960 Speaker 3: reasonable amount of my day and my stamina doing this 249 00:13:26,120 --> 00:13:29,760 Speaker 3: part of my job. And of course it's a far 250 00:13:29,800 --> 00:13:31,920 Speaker 3: better recipe for being able to show up day after 251 00:13:32,000 --> 00:13:34,520 Speaker 3: day after day at your job anyway. So it's not 252 00:13:34,600 --> 00:13:38,080 Speaker 3: like I'm saying that people should sort of be irresponsible, 253 00:13:38,160 --> 00:13:42,560 Speaker 3: because it's not responsible to you know, get onto these 254 00:13:44,280 --> 00:13:46,440 Speaker 3: crazy runs where you're trying to get to the very 255 00:13:46,520 --> 00:13:48,959 Speaker 3: end of something and you end up, you know, going 256 00:13:49,000 --> 00:13:51,040 Speaker 3: to bed three hours late and being incapable of work 257 00:13:51,040 --> 00:13:51,920 Speaker 3: for the next three days or what. 258 00:13:52,000 --> 00:13:53,320 Speaker 2: No, now you mentioned. 259 00:13:53,520 --> 00:13:55,680 Speaker 1: When you're in your in box, it's just so easy 260 00:13:55,720 --> 00:13:59,840 Speaker 1: to prioritize the administrative, quick and easy to respond email, 261 00:14:00,200 --> 00:14:03,440 Speaker 1: and to leave the important ones till some date in 262 00:14:03,480 --> 00:14:05,160 Speaker 1: the future where you have. 263 00:14:05,240 --> 00:14:06,400 Speaker 2: Cleared the decks. 264 00:14:06,840 --> 00:14:10,679 Speaker 1: How do you go about prioritizing responding to the important 265 00:14:10,720 --> 00:14:12,240 Speaker 1: ones and not the easy ones. 266 00:14:13,160 --> 00:14:16,600 Speaker 3: Prioritizing is a really interesting question. I don't really write 267 00:14:16,640 --> 00:14:22,000 Speaker 3: about that so much in the book, and I think honestly, 268 00:14:22,880 --> 00:14:26,080 Speaker 3: on the level of things like email, I do do 269 00:14:26,120 --> 00:14:29,920 Speaker 3: it very intuitively, like I don't attempt to sort of 270 00:14:30,680 --> 00:14:35,960 Speaker 3: have some kind of points system that that weights different 271 00:14:36,080 --> 00:14:41,120 Speaker 3: emails with in different ways. Over the course of my work. 272 00:14:41,200 --> 00:14:46,480 Speaker 3: In general, I do try to prioritize sort of writing 273 00:14:46,720 --> 00:14:53,160 Speaker 3: and related kind of directly creative work, because that's sort 274 00:14:53,200 --> 00:14:56,120 Speaker 3: of the centerpiece of what I do. I try to 275 00:14:56,160 --> 00:14:58,080 Speaker 3: prioritize that in the sense that I try to spend 276 00:14:58,080 --> 00:15:01,600 Speaker 3: the first sort of three four hours of the day 277 00:15:02,120 --> 00:15:03,720 Speaker 3: on that. That's sort of sort of rule of thumb 278 00:15:03,720 --> 00:15:05,800 Speaker 3: that I try to I try to operate. But like 279 00:15:05,840 --> 00:15:08,280 Speaker 3: you know, I think about my working day as divided 280 00:15:08,320 --> 00:15:13,360 Speaker 3: into that that bit and the rest of it, and 281 00:15:14,520 --> 00:15:16,640 Speaker 3: so you know, that's a sort of prioritization of very 282 00:15:16,680 --> 00:15:19,120 Speaker 3: sort of rough and ready prioritization that just comes from 283 00:15:19,160 --> 00:15:22,920 Speaker 3: like knowing what is the fundamental bit of my work, 284 00:15:22,960 --> 00:15:25,200 Speaker 3: the bit the bit that I don't I'm not going 285 00:15:25,280 --> 00:15:27,400 Speaker 3: to I'm pretty rapidly going to stop having any value 286 00:15:27,480 --> 00:15:31,720 Speaker 3: if I if I neglect, I'm still struggling to find 287 00:15:31,760 --> 00:15:34,360 Speaker 3: enough time for like reading. I think that's probably true 288 00:15:34,400 --> 00:15:36,720 Speaker 3: for a lot of people. But like the sort of 289 00:15:36,760 --> 00:15:39,240 Speaker 3: the input side of this, the where you take in 290 00:15:39,280 --> 00:15:41,920 Speaker 3: the sort of intellectual nourishment, it's very easy to tell 291 00:15:41,920 --> 00:15:43,920 Speaker 3: yourself that you're going to get around to that in 292 00:15:43,920 --> 00:15:45,600 Speaker 3: a week or two, once you've got these big things 293 00:15:45,600 --> 00:15:48,400 Speaker 3: out of the way, And I think that's a bad 294 00:15:48,440 --> 00:15:50,400 Speaker 3: tactic and one that I still struggle with. 295 00:15:50,760 --> 00:15:53,200 Speaker 1: I feel like that that relates to what you talk 296 00:15:53,240 --> 00:15:56,560 Speaker 1: about in terms of limiting your work in progress. Can 297 00:15:56,600 --> 00:15:59,920 Speaker 1: you sort of talk about how you do that in practice? 298 00:16:01,280 --> 00:16:03,600 Speaker 3: Yeah. This has been one of the great sort of 299 00:16:04,680 --> 00:16:07,000 Speaker 3: on a day to day level, life changing ideas for 300 00:16:07,040 --> 00:16:10,080 Speaker 3: me that I've encountered in the last few years. One 301 00:16:10,120 --> 00:16:12,880 Speaker 3: of the people who deserve credit for this is guy 302 00:16:12,880 --> 00:16:15,280 Speaker 3: called Jim Benson, who wrote a book called Personal Kanban, 303 00:16:16,240 --> 00:16:19,360 Speaker 3: But it's around in other places as well. This is 304 00:16:19,440 --> 00:16:21,680 Speaker 3: just the idea that the sort of theoretical idea, and 305 00:16:21,720 --> 00:16:23,680 Speaker 3: then I'll say a practical way of doing it. But 306 00:16:23,680 --> 00:16:26,720 Speaker 3: the theoretical idea is just that you set a really 307 00:16:26,800 --> 00:16:31,680 Speaker 3: low upper ceiling on the number of things, number of 308 00:16:31,680 --> 00:16:34,040 Speaker 3: projects or tasks that you're going to allow to be 309 00:16:34,120 --> 00:16:38,200 Speaker 3: sort of actively on your plate at any one point. 310 00:16:39,600 --> 00:16:42,240 Speaker 3: And so if it's like three, then the way this 311 00:16:42,320 --> 00:16:44,640 Speaker 3: works is that you don't you work on one of 312 00:16:44,680 --> 00:16:47,960 Speaker 3: those three and then you move to another one. Perhaps 313 00:16:48,000 --> 00:16:49,640 Speaker 3: you do it. You can sort of go between them 314 00:16:49,640 --> 00:16:51,680 Speaker 3: as you like, but you don't bring on a fourth 315 00:16:51,880 --> 00:16:56,680 Speaker 3: item until you've finished one of them, thereby freeing up 316 00:16:56,680 --> 00:16:59,800 Speaker 3: a slot and so that a new one can become 317 00:17:00,040 --> 00:17:02,080 Speaker 3: one of the three. So a really simple way of 318 00:17:02,120 --> 00:17:04,040 Speaker 3: implementing this is just to have two to do lists. Right. 319 00:17:04,080 --> 00:17:06,320 Speaker 3: You keep one list which is just endless. It's got 320 00:17:06,440 --> 00:17:08,920 Speaker 3: all the three hundred things that you have said you'll 321 00:17:08,920 --> 00:17:11,000 Speaker 3: do or want to do or are thinking about doing, 322 00:17:11,520 --> 00:17:14,560 Speaker 3: and then a second list that has let's say five 323 00:17:15,359 --> 00:17:18,600 Speaker 3: slots on it, and you move five things from the 324 00:17:18,680 --> 00:17:21,919 Speaker 3: long list to the short list. And the rule is 325 00:17:22,320 --> 00:17:24,040 Speaker 3: no more things move from the long list to the 326 00:17:24,040 --> 00:17:28,479 Speaker 3: shortlist until there's a new slot freed up by one 327 00:17:28,520 --> 00:17:30,879 Speaker 3: of them being completed. So then you work on one 328 00:17:30,920 --> 00:17:33,840 Speaker 3: of those five. When it's finished, you cross it out 329 00:17:33,880 --> 00:17:36,840 Speaker 3: and you can add a new one to your list 330 00:17:36,960 --> 00:17:41,080 Speaker 3: now because it only has four on it. It's so simple, 331 00:17:41,560 --> 00:17:45,720 Speaker 3: but I mean, it just has all these kind of 332 00:17:45,840 --> 00:17:50,320 Speaker 3: amazing implications. When you sort of practice it for a while, 333 00:17:50,440 --> 00:17:52,560 Speaker 3: you see it turns out to be much more powerful 334 00:17:52,560 --> 00:17:55,560 Speaker 3: than you and you might have imagined, because it sort 335 00:17:55,600 --> 00:18:01,480 Speaker 3: of brings you right up in into contact with your finitude, 336 00:18:01,560 --> 00:18:04,320 Speaker 3: right with your limitation, because it's actually always the case 337 00:18:04,359 --> 00:18:06,000 Speaker 3: that you can only be working on a few things, 338 00:18:06,000 --> 00:18:08,000 Speaker 3: and in some sense only ever working on one thing 339 00:18:08,080 --> 00:18:10,439 Speaker 3: at a time, like that was always the case. All 340 00:18:10,480 --> 00:18:13,600 Speaker 3: that's happening here is you're becoming conscious of it and 341 00:18:13,640 --> 00:18:16,280 Speaker 3: you're making a wise decision about which ones. 342 00:18:20,200 --> 00:18:23,840 Speaker 1: We will be back with Oliver Berkman soon talking about 343 00:18:23,880 --> 00:18:27,760 Speaker 1: why he keeps a done list. But in the meantime, 344 00:18:27,880 --> 00:18:30,760 Speaker 1: if you're enjoying how I work, you might want to 345 00:18:30,760 --> 00:18:33,879 Speaker 1: connect with me on the socials. I'm on LinkedIn to 346 00:18:33,920 --> 00:18:36,679 Speaker 1: search for Amantha Imba. I'm on Twitter at Amantha, and 347 00:18:36,720 --> 00:18:40,520 Speaker 1: I'm on Instagram at Amantha I and I publish a 348 00:18:40,520 --> 00:18:43,320 Speaker 1: whole lot more content and tips and cool things that 349 00:18:43,359 --> 00:18:45,600 Speaker 1: I'm finding through all of those channels. 350 00:18:45,640 --> 00:18:48,000 Speaker 2: So drop me a note, connect with me there. I'd 351 00:18:48,040 --> 00:18:48,919 Speaker 2: love to hear from you. 352 00:18:50,119 --> 00:18:52,919 Speaker 1: Now. In the book you talk about a done list 353 00:18:53,119 --> 00:18:57,840 Speaker 1: as well. Can you explain how you're using a done 354 00:18:57,840 --> 00:18:58,760 Speaker 1: list and what that is? 355 00:18:59,440 --> 00:19:02,240 Speaker 3: Yeah, that is an incredibly simple notion. That is just 356 00:19:02,320 --> 00:19:06,119 Speaker 3: the idea that in addition to all these lists that 357 00:19:06,240 --> 00:19:08,919 Speaker 3: we keep or systems that we have to tell us 358 00:19:08,960 --> 00:19:11,280 Speaker 3: and organize all the things we have not yet done, 359 00:19:12,640 --> 00:19:15,600 Speaker 3: the sort of terrible weight of the of the not 360 00:19:15,680 --> 00:19:19,359 Speaker 3: yet completed things. Cut yourself some slack, keep a list 361 00:19:19,960 --> 00:19:25,320 Speaker 3: of that you add to of the things that you complete. Right, 362 00:19:25,760 --> 00:19:29,600 Speaker 3: keep keep a record of of what you do. Some 363 00:19:30,280 --> 00:19:32,760 Speaker 3: of the ways that people organize there there to do 364 00:19:32,840 --> 00:19:34,800 Speaker 3: is will naturally create these, Right if you're sort of 365 00:19:34,880 --> 00:19:37,639 Speaker 3: moving things among columns on a canban board or something 366 00:19:37,680 --> 00:19:39,439 Speaker 3: like that, you're going to naturally come up with a 367 00:19:39,480 --> 00:19:44,439 Speaker 3: list of completed items. But if you're the just have 368 00:19:44,480 --> 00:19:46,320 Speaker 3: a sort of regular to do list, like keep one 369 00:19:46,359 --> 00:19:49,280 Speaker 3: other list where you literally write something down every time 370 00:19:49,359 --> 00:19:51,679 Speaker 3: you've you've crossed it off one list, or even if 371 00:19:51,720 --> 00:19:53,560 Speaker 3: you wasn't on that list, you know, if you do it, 372 00:19:53,760 --> 00:19:56,320 Speaker 3: write it on the done list. I think, you know, 373 00:19:56,720 --> 00:19:59,320 Speaker 3: in the simplest level, it's just nice to remind yourself 374 00:19:59,359 --> 00:20:03,879 Speaker 3: that that you sort of almost always, even when you 375 00:20:03,920 --> 00:20:06,359 Speaker 3: feel like a day didn't go very productively, you actually 376 00:20:06,400 --> 00:20:09,600 Speaker 3: probably did a whole lot of stuff. It's incredibly easy 377 00:20:09,600 --> 00:20:13,800 Speaker 3: to forget the sort of number of genuinely worthwhile things 378 00:20:13,840 --> 00:20:16,240 Speaker 3: that you did. On a subtler level, I think it 379 00:20:16,440 --> 00:20:20,160 Speaker 3: helps challenge this notion that a lot of people have, 380 00:20:20,800 --> 00:20:23,120 Speaker 3: and that I certainly am still to some extent afflicted 381 00:20:23,160 --> 00:20:26,760 Speaker 3: by that you sort of start each morning in a 382 00:20:26,800 --> 00:20:30,240 Speaker 3: condition of what I called productivity debt. You know that 383 00:20:30,320 --> 00:20:33,679 Speaker 3: like you owe it to yourself or maybe to your 384 00:20:33,720 --> 00:20:38,159 Speaker 3: boss or something like to sort of pay off this 385 00:20:38,320 --> 00:20:41,560 Speaker 3: debt through being productive, and hopefully, on a really good 386 00:20:41,640 --> 00:20:43,879 Speaker 3: day you might get back up to like zero balance. 387 00:20:43,920 --> 00:20:46,080 Speaker 3: You might get yourself out of overdraft and out of 388 00:20:46,119 --> 00:20:50,520 Speaker 3: debt and back to zero, which is a really kind 389 00:20:50,520 --> 00:20:52,040 Speaker 3: of I mean, there are lots of reasons for it, 390 00:20:52,119 --> 00:20:55,240 Speaker 3: but it's a really unfortunate and self punishing way to 391 00:20:55,480 --> 00:20:59,960 Speaker 3: frame work, and it's tied into all these kind of 392 00:21:00,119 --> 00:21:03,320 Speaker 3: ideas that people have about their self worth and about 393 00:21:03,320 --> 00:21:05,960 Speaker 3: the idea that they're not really justifying their existence on 394 00:21:06,000 --> 00:21:10,399 Speaker 3: the planet, not really really have a right to exist 395 00:21:10,520 --> 00:21:14,120 Speaker 3: unless they unless they sort of pull off a certain 396 00:21:14,200 --> 00:21:16,919 Speaker 3: amount of tasks. Obviously, people are in jobs where they do, 397 00:21:17,000 --> 00:21:19,159 Speaker 3: in another sense, have to do a certain amount of 398 00:21:19,200 --> 00:21:23,159 Speaker 3: tasks to get paid. But in this existential sense, you know, 399 00:21:23,200 --> 00:21:26,200 Speaker 3: I think a lot of people have, certainly me historically, 400 00:21:26,640 --> 00:21:31,320 Speaker 3: have tied up their sense of sort of basic adequacy 401 00:21:31,440 --> 00:21:35,480 Speaker 3: as a human with how productive they're being. And the 402 00:21:35,520 --> 00:21:37,359 Speaker 3: great thing about a done list is it sort of 403 00:21:37,359 --> 00:21:39,920 Speaker 3: rewires this a bit, and it helps you to think, well, 404 00:21:39,960 --> 00:21:43,320 Speaker 3: how about you start the morning at zero and everything 405 00:21:43,320 --> 00:21:46,320 Speaker 3: that you do is extra, like it's a deposit into 406 00:21:46,359 --> 00:21:50,000 Speaker 3: your productivity bank account instead of just paying off a debt. 407 00:21:50,680 --> 00:21:52,760 Speaker 3: Why not think about it that way? Why not think 408 00:21:52,760 --> 00:21:56,639 Speaker 3: that you're absolutely enough as you are, and then if 409 00:21:56,680 --> 00:21:58,720 Speaker 3: you manage to do a whole lot of cool things today, 410 00:21:59,359 --> 00:22:01,200 Speaker 3: that's all X and it's all great. 411 00:22:01,400 --> 00:22:02,000 Speaker 2: That's so cool. 412 00:22:02,040 --> 00:22:05,919 Speaker 1: I love that reframe because I've never been able to 413 00:22:06,600 --> 00:22:10,760 Speaker 1: consistently keep a done list, even. 414 00:22:10,560 --> 00:22:12,760 Speaker 2: Though I really like the advice. 415 00:22:13,000 --> 00:22:16,639 Speaker 1: And interestingly, I've recently changed my workflow around how I 416 00:22:16,680 --> 00:22:20,280 Speaker 1: managed tasks, and I was listening to you talk about 417 00:22:20,560 --> 00:22:23,359 Speaker 1: your to do list strategy and the long list and 418 00:22:23,400 --> 00:22:25,080 Speaker 1: the short list, or I think in the book you 419 00:22:25,160 --> 00:22:28,960 Speaker 1: referred to it as an open list and a closed list. Yeah, 420 00:22:28,960 --> 00:22:33,160 Speaker 1: which really resonated with me, and I've recently someone put 421 00:22:33,200 --> 00:22:37,160 Speaker 1: me onto this software called Motion. Annoyingly, there are two 422 00:22:37,240 --> 00:22:41,680 Speaker 1: calendar software is called Motion and for anyone that is interested, 423 00:22:41,680 --> 00:22:46,320 Speaker 1: it's Usemotion dot io dot com. And how it works 424 00:22:46,400 --> 00:22:50,040 Speaker 1: is that you have your combines your task list and 425 00:22:50,119 --> 00:22:53,000 Speaker 1: I guess this would be the well I guess the 426 00:22:53,040 --> 00:22:56,000 Speaker 1: closed list with your calendar. So you're seeing both on 427 00:22:56,040 --> 00:22:59,639 Speaker 1: the same screen, and you enter your tasks on the 428 00:22:59,720 --> 00:23:04,520 Speaker 1: left hand side, and you assign an approximate time of 429 00:23:04,600 --> 00:23:07,400 Speaker 1: how long they would take to complete, and then you 430 00:23:07,520 --> 00:23:10,400 Speaker 1: drag and drop them into your calendar. So it's sort 431 00:23:10,440 --> 00:23:13,680 Speaker 1: of automatically time boxes for you in terms of that 432 00:23:13,760 --> 00:23:16,080 Speaker 1: task then becomes a meeting with yourself. 433 00:23:16,160 --> 00:23:18,880 Speaker 2: And then when you finish the task, like normally, what. 434 00:23:18,800 --> 00:23:21,120 Speaker 1: Would happen if you were just doing normal time boxing 435 00:23:21,560 --> 00:23:24,399 Speaker 1: is time would pass and you would have finished the task. 436 00:23:24,520 --> 00:23:26,640 Speaker 1: But with this, you actually get to tick it off 437 00:23:27,080 --> 00:23:29,480 Speaker 1: and it stays in your calendar. But it's kind of 438 00:23:29,560 --> 00:23:32,440 Speaker 1: grade out, so like, you get to the end of 439 00:23:32,480 --> 00:23:35,639 Speaker 1: the day and you feel that sense of achievement or 440 00:23:35,680 --> 00:23:38,760 Speaker 1: progress because everything you've completed is still there, but it's 441 00:23:38,800 --> 00:23:40,800 Speaker 1: ticked off and you get to tick it off as 442 00:23:40,840 --> 00:23:43,560 Speaker 1: you go through your day, which also, you know, it's 443 00:23:43,640 --> 00:23:47,280 Speaker 1: just good in terms of giving you that dopamine hit 444 00:23:47,320 --> 00:23:49,680 Speaker 1: as you go throughout it, but it's also good in 445 00:23:49,840 --> 00:23:53,800 Speaker 1: terms of not over scheduling yourself because you kind of like, 446 00:23:53,840 --> 00:23:57,439 Speaker 1: you like, if you treat that task list as the 447 00:23:57,520 --> 00:24:00,760 Speaker 1: closed list and then you make sure that you have 448 00:24:00,840 --> 00:24:05,760 Speaker 1: time to fit everything physically into your calendar, then you 449 00:24:05,880 --> 00:24:08,040 Speaker 1: kind of end up with this perfectly balanced calendar. 450 00:24:08,119 --> 00:24:08,560 Speaker 2: I find. 451 00:24:08,960 --> 00:24:10,360 Speaker 3: Okay, I'm going to I'm going to check that out. 452 00:24:10,400 --> 00:24:12,679 Speaker 3: This is music to my head. It's reminded me of 453 00:24:13,440 --> 00:24:16,439 Speaker 3: I wrote an email newsletter just recently about sort of 454 00:24:16,440 --> 00:24:24,840 Speaker 3: returning to the Pomodoro technique, talk about old school productivity, geekism. 455 00:24:24,920 --> 00:24:28,119 Speaker 3: This is if anyone's listening doesn't know, this is a 456 00:24:28,160 --> 00:24:31,400 Speaker 3: methodology based around dividing your time into twenty five minute 457 00:24:31,480 --> 00:24:35,480 Speaker 3: chunks followed by five minute breaks. But the guy who 458 00:24:35,800 --> 00:24:39,199 Speaker 3: started that has got this very very interesting way of 459 00:24:39,280 --> 00:24:42,840 Speaker 3: talking about time and the idea that what he's doing 460 00:24:42,960 --> 00:24:46,280 Speaker 3: is offering one way for people to stop time being 461 00:24:46,320 --> 00:24:49,080 Speaker 3: a predator, as he puts it, stop stop having this 462 00:24:49,160 --> 00:24:55,400 Speaker 3: kind of antagonistic relationship to time. So, you know, instead 463 00:24:55,400 --> 00:25:00,439 Speaker 3: of instead of sort of starting off with a long 464 00:25:00,560 --> 00:25:03,520 Speaker 3: list of tasks in the morning and and sort of 465 00:25:03,880 --> 00:25:07,680 Speaker 3: beginning the fight, the battle to get them all done 466 00:25:07,760 --> 00:25:09,679 Speaker 3: in the limited amount of time, which sort of pitches 467 00:25:09,720 --> 00:25:12,159 Speaker 3: you into this battle with time. Instead, you sort of 468 00:25:12,160 --> 00:25:14,320 Speaker 3: think about your day as divided up into these chunks, 469 00:25:14,359 --> 00:25:16,080 Speaker 3: and you figure out what can be fitted into them. 470 00:25:16,520 --> 00:25:19,840 Speaker 3: And the fact is if that means neglecting some things, 471 00:25:20,040 --> 00:25:22,000 Speaker 3: well it was always going to mean neglecting some things, 472 00:25:22,040 --> 00:25:25,440 Speaker 3: only now you're doing it without this kind of anxiety 473 00:25:25,480 --> 00:25:29,680 Speaker 3: inducing belief that you might you know, break the rules 474 00:25:29,720 --> 00:25:35,200 Speaker 3: of physics and fit even more in. And that really 475 00:25:35,200 --> 00:25:36,800 Speaker 3: spoke to me is something that I'm also trying to, 476 00:25:36,920 --> 00:25:40,240 Speaker 3: I think say in this in this book, it's the 477 00:25:40,359 --> 00:25:42,520 Speaker 3: big idea here is something to do with kind of 478 00:25:42,640 --> 00:25:49,240 Speaker 3: falling back into reality and falling back into time. Let's 479 00:25:49,280 --> 00:25:54,439 Speaker 3: not get into Heidegger in this podcast, probably, but you know, 480 00:25:54,480 --> 00:25:56,640 Speaker 3: there are some big ideas here that sort of are 481 00:25:56,640 --> 00:26:00,800 Speaker 3: in that go quite a long way back in philosophy, 482 00:26:01,960 --> 00:26:04,680 Speaker 3: it's sort of understanding that what you are is a 483 00:26:04,800 --> 00:26:07,119 Speaker 3: kind of a river of time that flows for a 484 00:26:07,200 --> 00:26:10,520 Speaker 3: while and you're in it as opposed to scrambling out 485 00:26:10,560 --> 00:26:12,360 Speaker 3: of it and then trying to sort of control it 486 00:26:12,480 --> 00:26:15,320 Speaker 3: from above. And what you and your listeners can't see 487 00:26:15,320 --> 00:26:19,080 Speaker 3: now is I'm sort of I'm sort of contorting myself 488 00:26:19,119 --> 00:26:23,080 Speaker 3: into various physical shapes here to try to try to 489 00:26:24,440 --> 00:26:26,479 Speaker 3: articulate this idea that I think a lot of us 490 00:26:26,480 --> 00:26:28,119 Speaker 3: are trying a lot of the time to kind of 491 00:26:29,240 --> 00:26:33,880 Speaker 3: psychologically lever ourselves into a position of being on top 492 00:26:33,960 --> 00:26:37,800 Speaker 3: of our lives and being in command of time and 493 00:26:37,880 --> 00:26:40,560 Speaker 3: being in the driver's seat, being like air traffic control 494 00:26:40,600 --> 00:26:43,200 Speaker 3: and sort of navigating the way things go instead of 495 00:26:43,240 --> 00:26:45,600 Speaker 3: being instead of understanding that we're in it, that we 496 00:26:45,680 --> 00:26:48,560 Speaker 3: are it, that you know today, you have the hours 497 00:26:48,640 --> 00:26:53,320 Speaker 3: of today, and that's that. It's this just like relaxing 498 00:26:53,400 --> 00:26:57,959 Speaker 3: back into reality and seeing not only is that much 499 00:26:58,080 --> 00:27:01,320 Speaker 3: less anxiety inducing to understand that, like you have this time, 500 00:27:01,600 --> 00:27:04,120 Speaker 3: certain things can be done with this time, and that's that, 501 00:27:05,560 --> 00:27:09,440 Speaker 3: but it's also very empowering because you know, it means 502 00:27:09,440 --> 00:27:13,040 Speaker 3: that you get to do the things that you want 503 00:27:13,080 --> 00:27:14,880 Speaker 3: to do. It means you me and that are most 504 00:27:14,880 --> 00:27:18,880 Speaker 3: important to you to do because you're no longer fighting 505 00:27:18,960 --> 00:27:24,160 Speaker 3: this kind of this kind of futile battle to become 506 00:27:24,160 --> 00:27:26,560 Speaker 3: a kind of God with regard to your life. 507 00:27:27,000 --> 00:27:30,240 Speaker 1: It's interesting in the book you write a bit about patience, 508 00:27:30,560 --> 00:27:34,720 Speaker 1: and I guess building your patient's muscle, and it's it's funny. 509 00:27:34,760 --> 00:27:38,439 Speaker 1: I think back to, gosh, it must have been the 510 00:27:38,480 --> 00:27:41,600 Speaker 1: beginning of last year, and one of my goals was 511 00:27:41,680 --> 00:27:46,200 Speaker 1: to become more patient, which probably sounds like a very 512 00:27:46,240 --> 00:27:47,920 Speaker 1: strange goal, and. 513 00:27:48,520 --> 00:27:49,760 Speaker 3: That maybe it's lots of people here. 514 00:27:50,200 --> 00:27:55,440 Speaker 1: Yeah, And I didn't succeed, and I still have many days. 515 00:27:55,600 --> 00:27:57,680 Speaker 2: And I was even reflecting on this a few weeks ago. 516 00:27:57,680 --> 00:28:00,920 Speaker 1: I have so many days where I spend day feeling 517 00:28:01,040 --> 00:28:05,000 Speaker 1: like I'm rushed or I'm running behind, like that perpetual 518 00:28:05,080 --> 00:28:08,360 Speaker 1: sense of oh, if only I had, like, you know, 519 00:28:08,880 --> 00:28:11,280 Speaker 1: an extra five minutes in this twenty four hour period, 520 00:28:11,320 --> 00:28:14,720 Speaker 1: I could catch up, which is completely nonsensical. And I 521 00:28:14,760 --> 00:28:17,280 Speaker 1: want to know for you, I imagine that building your patient's 522 00:28:17,359 --> 00:28:20,720 Speaker 1: muscle has been something you're trying to do. What strategies 523 00:28:20,760 --> 00:28:21,440 Speaker 1: have worked for you. 524 00:28:22,400 --> 00:28:24,119 Speaker 3: Well, there's the extreme one that I write about in 525 00:28:24,119 --> 00:28:26,600 Speaker 3: the book where I did this exercise that an art 526 00:28:26,640 --> 00:28:31,000 Speaker 3: historian called Jennifer Roberts at Harvard University recommends where you 527 00:28:31,080 --> 00:28:31,400 Speaker 3: were Oh. 528 00:28:31,400 --> 00:28:33,880 Speaker 1: My god, sorry, I just have to explain it. But 529 00:28:34,040 --> 00:28:36,119 Speaker 1: my god, that made me feel sick when I read that. 530 00:28:36,200 --> 00:28:37,200 Speaker 2: But please explain it. 531 00:28:37,880 --> 00:28:39,960 Speaker 3: Oh yeah, Well, basically, if you do it. If she's 532 00:28:39,960 --> 00:28:42,200 Speaker 3: an art historian at Harvard and she has all her 533 00:28:42,600 --> 00:28:45,160 Speaker 3: beginning students do the same exercise, which is that they 534 00:28:45,200 --> 00:28:48,160 Speaker 3: should choose a painting or sculpture in the at a 535 00:28:48,240 --> 00:28:51,840 Speaker 3: museum in the area, and obviously Cambridge, Massachusetts has a 536 00:28:51,880 --> 00:28:56,200 Speaker 3: whole lot of really fantastic art collections and go look 537 00:28:56,240 --> 00:29:01,760 Speaker 3: at it for three hours straight and you can sort 538 00:29:01,760 --> 00:29:02,840 Speaker 3: of you can take a bath from break if you 539 00:29:02,920 --> 00:29:04,880 Speaker 3: have to. But it's but basically, I'm not supposed to 540 00:29:04,920 --> 00:29:09,960 Speaker 3: do anything else but look at the painting. And the 541 00:29:10,040 --> 00:29:13,719 Speaker 3: idea here is that, you know, especially with the visual arts, 542 00:29:13,760 --> 00:29:16,920 Speaker 3: it's really easy to tell yourself that you've seen a 543 00:29:16,960 --> 00:29:21,720 Speaker 3: painting just because you've looked at it, but actually all 544 00:29:21,760 --> 00:29:24,880 Speaker 3: sorts of details in a painting sort of give themselves 545 00:29:24,960 --> 00:29:27,320 Speaker 3: up after a certain amount of time. And I went 546 00:29:27,400 --> 00:29:30,280 Speaker 3: and did this thing and looked at the painting and 547 00:29:30,560 --> 00:29:34,400 Speaker 3: for three hours at the Harvard Art Museums, and it's 548 00:29:34,440 --> 00:29:37,240 Speaker 3: a very interesting experience. It's interesting from the point of 549 00:29:37,280 --> 00:29:39,760 Speaker 3: view of understanding art, which is not one of my 550 00:29:39,920 --> 00:29:43,320 Speaker 3: strong points, but it's also just it really demonstrates that, 551 00:29:43,480 --> 00:29:47,239 Speaker 3: how you know, after a very short time, it's an 552 00:29:47,280 --> 00:29:54,000 Speaker 3: incredibly uncomfortable experience to not be able to try to 553 00:29:54,080 --> 00:29:56,560 Speaker 3: hurry reality to go at the speed you want, right, 554 00:29:56,600 --> 00:29:59,960 Speaker 3: which is what you would normally do. You'd sort of 555 00:30:00,320 --> 00:30:04,120 Speaker 3: so you sort of undergo the discomfort of not being 556 00:30:04,160 --> 00:30:06,040 Speaker 3: able to hurry reality. But on the other side of 557 00:30:06,080 --> 00:30:10,440 Speaker 3: that discomfort, sort of reality opens out in this remarkable way, 558 00:30:10,480 --> 00:30:13,600 Speaker 3: and you find yourself much more relaxed and much more 559 00:30:13,960 --> 00:30:16,480 Speaker 3: in touch with the thing that you're looking at. The 560 00:30:16,880 --> 00:30:18,840 Speaker 3: broader point that I'm trying to make about patients in 561 00:30:18,840 --> 00:30:24,240 Speaker 3: the book is that patience is essentially, in a world 562 00:30:24,240 --> 00:30:28,160 Speaker 3: that is accelerating as much as ours is, the ability 563 00:30:28,200 --> 00:30:31,240 Speaker 3: to be patient, to let things take the time they take, 564 00:30:31,320 --> 00:30:34,120 Speaker 3: is actually a form of control. Right. Historically, I think 565 00:30:34,200 --> 00:30:36,560 Speaker 3: patience has been a thing that it's been a sort 566 00:30:36,560 --> 00:30:39,680 Speaker 3: of virtue of the dispossessed. It's a thing that women 567 00:30:39,720 --> 00:30:41,960 Speaker 3: were told to cultivate patients while their husbands were living 568 00:30:41,960 --> 00:30:45,440 Speaker 3: more exciting lives outside the home, or you know, ethnic 569 00:30:45,480 --> 00:30:47,440 Speaker 3: minorities have been told used to be patient, to wait 570 00:30:47,480 --> 00:30:49,440 Speaker 3: a few more decades to have full civil rights. It's 571 00:30:49,440 --> 00:30:52,280 Speaker 3: been a very sort of passive and oppressive kind of 572 00:30:52,800 --> 00:30:55,120 Speaker 3: so called virtue, right, it's sort of like deal with 573 00:30:55,160 --> 00:30:58,600 Speaker 3: the fact that you don't have power kind of ideology. 574 00:30:59,080 --> 00:31:01,400 Speaker 3: But what Jennifer Roberts points out is that, you know, 575 00:31:01,720 --> 00:31:04,680 Speaker 3: as society accelerates, it becomes a form of power. Rather 576 00:31:04,720 --> 00:31:07,160 Speaker 3: than a way of accommodating yourself to your lack of power, 577 00:31:07,160 --> 00:31:11,560 Speaker 3: it becomes a way of being able to resist the 578 00:31:11,600 --> 00:31:15,080 Speaker 3: fact that every single technological and cultural and economic force 579 00:31:15,120 --> 00:31:17,200 Speaker 3: is pushing us to go fast, go fast, to go faster, 580 00:31:17,280 --> 00:31:20,640 Speaker 3: to the point where you actually can't do well the 581 00:31:20,720 --> 00:31:23,560 Speaker 3: things that you might want to do, or experience life 582 00:31:23,600 --> 00:31:26,120 Speaker 3: in the ways you might might want to And so 583 00:31:27,120 --> 00:31:30,920 Speaker 3: cultivating patients then, I think, is just like that really 584 00:31:31,040 --> 00:31:35,000 Speaker 3: is another part of this kind of falling back into reality, 585 00:31:35,040 --> 00:31:39,680 Speaker 3: and the reality is that you can't hurry the pace 586 00:31:39,800 --> 00:31:42,440 Speaker 3: of everything that you know, reading a book and getting 587 00:31:42,480 --> 00:31:44,320 Speaker 3: the most out of it just takes the time. It 588 00:31:44,400 --> 00:31:45,760 Speaker 3: takes what do you. 589 00:31:45,800 --> 00:31:49,440 Speaker 1: Do on a day to day level when you find 590 00:31:49,480 --> 00:31:51,920 Speaker 1: yourself feeling rushed or impatient? 591 00:31:52,920 --> 00:31:55,120 Speaker 3: Again, it's a good days and bad days question. But 592 00:31:55,200 --> 00:31:59,400 Speaker 3: what I do when I can, when I have just 593 00:31:59,560 --> 00:32:03,760 Speaker 3: enough presence of mind and consciousness to see that that's 594 00:32:03,800 --> 00:32:13,480 Speaker 3: what's happening, is to stop completely, you know, to to 595 00:32:13,640 --> 00:32:18,240 Speaker 3: go from rushing something to to just stopping and really 596 00:32:18,240 --> 00:32:23,400 Speaker 3: focus on trying to feel the discomfort, right, Because I 597 00:32:23,400 --> 00:32:29,800 Speaker 3: think the thing that is so extraordinary about this kind 598 00:32:29,840 --> 00:32:32,120 Speaker 3: of discomfort and other forms of the discomfort that we've 599 00:32:32,120 --> 00:32:35,640 Speaker 3: been talking about, is how little of it will totally 600 00:32:36,360 --> 00:32:38,840 Speaker 3: is how little is required to completely sort of divert 601 00:32:38,880 --> 00:32:41,440 Speaker 3: me from my path of the day and or to 602 00:32:41,520 --> 00:32:43,920 Speaker 3: cause me to get incredibly anxious and frustrated with how 603 00:32:43,960 --> 00:32:47,160 Speaker 3: slow something's going. And if you turn your attention to 604 00:32:47,280 --> 00:32:51,640 Speaker 3: the discomfort, very often you sort of have this understanding 605 00:32:51,640 --> 00:32:55,320 Speaker 3: that like, it's it's not a big deal, right, It's not. 606 00:32:55,640 --> 00:32:59,440 Speaker 3: It doesn't usually feel like some sort of terrible torture 607 00:32:59,640 --> 00:33:02,760 Speaker 3: or pain. It's just a sort of it's a sort 608 00:33:02,800 --> 00:33:07,680 Speaker 3: of mild resistance to being where you are, and that 609 00:33:07,840 --> 00:33:12,440 Speaker 3: things that what's happening is is happening, and you know, 610 00:33:12,560 --> 00:33:15,840 Speaker 3: when you're when it's working well, that will enable you 611 00:33:15,880 --> 00:33:18,280 Speaker 3: to sort of drop more deeply into the experience of 612 00:33:18,320 --> 00:33:23,000 Speaker 3: reality and find that actually there's nothing wrong with you, 613 00:33:23,040 --> 00:33:25,840 Speaker 3: Know that the fact that something is taking longer than 614 00:33:25,880 --> 00:33:28,200 Speaker 3: you than you thought it was, that that then you 615 00:33:28,280 --> 00:33:31,200 Speaker 3: thought you wanted it to that the only cause of 616 00:33:31,200 --> 00:33:36,200 Speaker 3: the anxiety is some bizarre imaginary standard you have that 617 00:33:36,280 --> 00:33:39,719 Speaker 3: it ought to be possible to do this thing more 618 00:33:39,800 --> 00:33:42,800 Speaker 3: quickly than it is possible to do it in And 619 00:33:42,840 --> 00:33:46,960 Speaker 3: so like, why not let go of the imaginary standard 620 00:33:47,040 --> 00:33:50,840 Speaker 3: and and just keep sort of steadily working on God, 621 00:33:50,880 --> 00:33:51,240 Speaker 3: that's so. 622 00:33:51,320 --> 00:33:52,520 Speaker 2: Helpful to keep in mind. 623 00:33:52,560 --> 00:33:54,560 Speaker 1: I feel like I'm going to take it as my 624 00:33:54,680 --> 00:33:56,040 Speaker 1: child to try to apply that today. 625 00:33:56,640 --> 00:33:59,520 Speaker 3: Now. Might you see me waiting in a line somewhere 626 00:34:00,360 --> 00:34:05,440 Speaker 3: looking really angry and like frustrated and clenching my fists. Yes, 627 00:34:05,520 --> 00:34:07,920 Speaker 3: because I'm not perfect at any. 628 00:34:07,760 --> 00:34:09,920 Speaker 2: Of this, and I think that's so good to remember. 629 00:34:10,000 --> 00:34:10,800 Speaker 2: It's so easy. 630 00:34:10,840 --> 00:34:13,760 Speaker 1: I feel like for people to particularly listen to guests 631 00:34:13,760 --> 00:34:16,160 Speaker 1: that I have on how I work and go, They've 632 00:34:16,200 --> 00:34:19,799 Speaker 1: got it all sorted. But it's really refreshing to know that, well, 633 00:34:19,840 --> 00:34:22,319 Speaker 1: all of it doesn't have it all sorted, even though 634 00:34:22,360 --> 00:34:25,680 Speaker 1: we're saying all these really smart things. Now, I wanted 635 00:34:25,680 --> 00:34:28,560 Speaker 1: to ask you something. There are a bunch of things 636 00:34:28,600 --> 00:34:31,360 Speaker 1: towards the end of the book that are questions, and 637 00:34:31,400 --> 00:34:35,280 Speaker 1: then there are some practical ideas. And something that stuck 638 00:34:35,360 --> 00:34:38,080 Speaker 1: with me is I think it's a question that you say, 639 00:34:38,200 --> 00:34:41,960 Speaker 1: James Hollis asks, and it does this choice diminish me 640 00:34:42,280 --> 00:34:46,520 Speaker 1: or enlarge meat when we're thinking about making decisions, And 641 00:34:46,640 --> 00:34:50,040 Speaker 1: I'd love to know, like when and how do you 642 00:34:50,080 --> 00:34:51,040 Speaker 1: apply that question. 643 00:34:51,920 --> 00:34:54,360 Speaker 3: I'll give you one very specific sort of example that 644 00:34:54,880 --> 00:34:57,280 Speaker 3: was very significant to me. I live in the United States, 645 00:34:57,920 --> 00:35:02,040 Speaker 3: come from Britain. A year or two after I arrived here, 646 00:35:02,640 --> 00:35:04,760 Speaker 3: there were sort of various reasons to do with work 647 00:35:04,800 --> 00:35:09,480 Speaker 3: and relationships and all sorts of things that sort of 648 00:35:09,520 --> 00:35:11,440 Speaker 3: caused me to think like, oh, maybe it's time to 649 00:35:11,480 --> 00:35:13,000 Speaker 3: go home. You know, maybe it's time to go back 650 00:35:13,000 --> 00:35:18,759 Speaker 3: where I belong and not stay here. And you know, 651 00:35:18,960 --> 00:35:21,880 Speaker 3: I had I was really only just at the beginning 652 00:35:21,880 --> 00:35:24,720 Speaker 3: of understanding this kind of James Hollis stuff, so maybe 653 00:35:24,760 --> 00:35:29,320 Speaker 3: slightly retroactively applying this way of thinking to that decision, 654 00:35:29,320 --> 00:35:33,440 Speaker 3: But looking back, certainly I can see there that that 655 00:35:33,600 --> 00:35:36,800 Speaker 3: was a time when actually it might have made you know, 656 00:35:36,840 --> 00:35:38,520 Speaker 3: I had no idea it was going to make me happiest, 657 00:35:38,920 --> 00:35:42,680 Speaker 3: but it would have been a form of diminishment. It 658 00:35:42,719 --> 00:35:45,880 Speaker 3: would have been a sort of a retreat from challenges 659 00:35:45,920 --> 00:35:47,719 Speaker 3: that needed to be faced in my life if I 660 00:35:47,800 --> 00:35:50,520 Speaker 3: had if I had gone home, I would have been 661 00:35:50,560 --> 00:35:54,239 Speaker 3: running away and it was enlarging to stay. And as 662 00:35:54,280 --> 00:35:57,360 Speaker 3: it turned out, you know, various extremely good things in 663 00:35:57,400 --> 00:36:01,359 Speaker 3: my life would not have happened if I hadn't if 664 00:36:01,400 --> 00:36:03,719 Speaker 3: I hadn't stayed. I think you can probably apply this 665 00:36:03,800 --> 00:36:06,359 Speaker 3: on a much more sort of low level as well, 666 00:36:06,440 --> 00:36:10,200 Speaker 3: in terms of day to day tasks. I do find 667 00:36:10,200 --> 00:36:13,440 Speaker 3: myself thinking some version of it when i'm when I 668 00:36:13,480 --> 00:36:17,560 Speaker 3: sort of know that there's a there's something I want 669 00:36:17,680 --> 00:36:19,640 Speaker 3: to do for one version of the for one meaning 670 00:36:19,640 --> 00:36:21,319 Speaker 3: of the word want, which is it's important to me 671 00:36:21,440 --> 00:36:25,040 Speaker 3: and it's going to be deeply satisfying to invested time 672 00:36:25,080 --> 00:36:26,640 Speaker 3: in it, but I don't want to do it for 673 00:36:26,680 --> 00:36:28,960 Speaker 3: the other definition of the word want, which is like 674 00:36:29,400 --> 00:36:35,400 Speaker 3: I'm just feeling sort of truculent and tired and I'd 675 00:36:35,480 --> 00:36:36,520 Speaker 3: rather do something easier. 676 00:36:36,840 --> 00:36:37,320 Speaker 2: That's great. 677 00:36:37,360 --> 00:36:40,120 Speaker 1: I love that question so much, now, Oliver. My final 678 00:36:40,200 --> 00:36:43,160 Speaker 1: question for you, for people that want to consume more 679 00:36:43,200 --> 00:36:46,520 Speaker 1: of what you're doing and get the hands on four 680 00:36:46,560 --> 00:36:50,200 Speaker 1: thousand Weeks, which I highly recommend. I just think that, 681 00:36:51,120 --> 00:36:54,799 Speaker 1: you know, it's just it's such a great book for 682 00:36:54,880 --> 00:36:58,359 Speaker 1: people that think about productivity and think about how they 683 00:36:58,480 --> 00:37:01,400 Speaker 1: use their time so much, like so many of the 684 00:37:01,440 --> 00:37:05,280 Speaker 1: ideas really challenged me to rethink beliefs that I held 685 00:37:05,400 --> 00:37:06,759 Speaker 1: about how I use my time. 686 00:37:06,800 --> 00:37:08,319 Speaker 2: So I couldn't recommend it highly enough. 687 00:37:08,320 --> 00:37:09,880 Speaker 3: So, oh, I'm so glad to hear it. Thank you 688 00:37:09,920 --> 00:37:11,040 Speaker 3: so much, my pleasure. 689 00:37:11,120 --> 00:37:12,919 Speaker 1: So how can people get their hands on a copy 690 00:37:12,960 --> 00:37:15,160 Speaker 1: of the book and connect with you in some way? 691 00:37:15,800 --> 00:37:18,000 Speaker 3: Well, I've got a sort of My website is Oliver 692 00:37:18,040 --> 00:37:21,160 Speaker 3: Berkman dot com. That's where you can sign up also 693 00:37:21,200 --> 00:37:23,719 Speaker 3: for my newsletter of The Imperfectionist that has a link 694 00:37:23,760 --> 00:37:27,280 Speaker 3: to pre orders around the world for four thousand weeks. 695 00:37:27,360 --> 00:37:31,600 Speaker 3: Also the url four thousand weeks book dot com four 696 00:37:31,719 --> 00:37:34,120 Speaker 3: zero zero zero weeks book dot com will take you 697 00:37:34,160 --> 00:37:38,400 Speaker 3: to a page that has links for wherever you're listening from. 698 00:37:38,560 --> 00:37:41,680 Speaker 3: And yeah, depending on when this is being heard, pre 699 00:37:41,840 --> 00:37:46,920 Speaker 3: orders and orders are enormously gratefully received. 700 00:37:47,640 --> 00:37:50,759 Speaker 1: Fantastic, Oliver. It's been great having you back on How 701 00:37:50,800 --> 00:37:54,439 Speaker 1: I Work. Thank you so much for giving me part 702 00:37:54,480 --> 00:37:56,160 Speaker 1: of your day to day, part of your time. 703 00:37:56,840 --> 00:37:58,320 Speaker 3: Thank you so much. It was a pleasure and I 704 00:37:58,400 --> 00:37:59,400 Speaker 3: really enjoyed the conversation. 705 00:38:00,120 --> 00:38:02,840 Speaker 1: Hello there, that is it for today's show. If you 706 00:38:03,360 --> 00:38:07,000 Speaker 1: enjoyed today's episode, why not share it with someone else 707 00:38:07,440 --> 00:38:10,040 Speaker 1: that you think would benefit and maybe get some useful 708 00:38:10,080 --> 00:38:12,799 Speaker 1: tips to improve the way that they work. How I 709 00:38:12,920 --> 00:38:15,960 Speaker 1: Work is produced by Inventium with production support from Dead 710 00:38:15,960 --> 00:38:18,799 Speaker 1: Set Studios. And thank you to Martin Nimba who does 711 00:38:18,800 --> 00:38:22,239 Speaker 1: the audio mixport every show and makes everything sound so 712 00:38:22,320 --> 00:38:23,760 Speaker 1: much better than it would have otherwise. 713 00:38:24,120 --> 00:38:24,919 Speaker 3: See you next time.