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Speaker 1: My name is Lily Maddon and I'm a proud Arunda

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Speaker 1: Bungelung calcotton woman from Gadighol Country. The Daily oz acknowledges

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Speaker 1: that this podcast is recorded on the lands of the

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Speaker 1: Gadighl people and pays respect to all Aboriginal and Torres

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Speaker 1: Strait Island and nations. We pay our respects to the

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Speaker 1: first peoples of these countries, both past and present.

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Speaker 2: Hello, and welcome to the Daily os. It's Sam. Welcome

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Speaker 2: to tda's summer series. I hope you're having a nice

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Speaker 2: couple of weeks over summer, whether you're working, taking some

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Speaker 2: time off, headed to a music festival, or just you know,

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Speaker 2: hanging out with family and friends. This week, we're going

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Speaker 2: to share more of our favorite deep dives from twenty

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Speaker 2: twenty three, from some of our most popular interviews to

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Speaker 2: some stories you might have missed. I guess we're trying

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Speaker 2: to keep your company here over the summer. We'll be

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Speaker 2: back to some regular programming next week. Until then, here

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Speaker 2: is our summer series.

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Speaker 3: Today, we have another special interview from tda's editor Billy

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Speaker 3: fitz Simon's. She's talking to the Foreign Minister Penny Wong

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Speaker 3: about everything from the voice to the US election and

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Speaker 3: even well to people.

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Speaker 4: Pennywong, thank you so much for joining the Daily OS.

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Speaker 5: It's great to be here.

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Speaker 2: You are, of.

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Speaker 4: Course the Foreign Minister. There are so much that your

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Speaker 4: portfolio covers. Can you start by just painting us a picture?

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Speaker 1: What is your role?

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Speaker 5: That's a good question. I think the role of the

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Speaker 5: Foreign Minister is to simply explain Australia to the world

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Speaker 5: and explain the world to Australia. And in my job

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Speaker 5: with people work with me is to help manage Australia's

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Speaker 5: relationship with other countries, with our region and the world,

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Speaker 5: and to have an understanding of how we press for

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Speaker 5: Australia's national interest, that is, the things we want and

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Speaker 5: who we are in the world.

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Speaker 4: I want to start with Julia Sange. This month Australian

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Speaker 4: politicians from across the ale travel to the US to

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Speaker 4: campaign for his freedom. You've said the case has dragged

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Speaker 4: on for too long. Why is it taking so long

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Speaker 4: to get a Sange home?

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Speaker 5: Well, the Australian government can't change the legal proceedings in

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Speaker 5: another country, just as we wouldn't want or we wouldn't

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Speaker 5: allow another country to change legal proceedings in our country.

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Speaker 5: So ultimately, if there's a way through this, that has

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Speaker 5: to be something the US government and the US Justice

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Speaker 5: Department decide, and mister Sianch has to be.

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Speaker 3: Part of that.

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Speaker 4: But you can negotiate with that, right.

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Speaker 5: No, it's not a political decision. We can do what

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Speaker 5: we've done, which is we have said publicly and privately

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Speaker 5: we think it has gone on too long.

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Speaker 4: Are you not pushing harder to bring a sanch home

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Speaker 4: because you're worried about how it could impact the US

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Speaker 4: Australia relationship.

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Speaker 5: No, no, And I think if things were as easy

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Speaker 5: as just a discussion between politicians, you know, then something

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Speaker 5: might have happened, But they're not.

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Speaker 4: On the topic of the US is looking likely that

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Speaker 4: the election next year will be between Joe Biden and

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Speaker 4: Donald Trump. How do you think your government would work

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Speaker 4: with a Trump administration.

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Speaker 5: Well, we have a relationship between two countries, and our

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Speaker 5: relationship with the United States has seen lots of different presidents,

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Speaker 5: but ultimately it's a bigger relationship than any one individual.

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Speaker 4: The last time Donald Trump won power, you were in

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Speaker 4: opposition and you say at the time that Australia should

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Speaker 4: essentially put less focus on its relationship with the US

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Speaker 4: and focus more of its attention on Asia. Will that

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Speaker 4: be your viewpoint if Trump is elected next year?

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Speaker 5: So we have the US alliance, but I have spent

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Speaker 5: most of my time since I've become Foreign Minister in

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Speaker 5: Southeast Asia and the Pacific because that is our neighborhood,

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Speaker 5: that is our region, and we have to have deep

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Speaker 5: resilient relationships in our region in a world that's increasingly

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Speaker 5: more challenging and we're all trying to deal with a

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Speaker 5: whole range of really big and difficult issues.

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Speaker 4: So last time Donald Trump was elected, you said that

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Speaker 4: Australia should be at a change point. Do you not

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Speaker 4: think that that would be that would happen this time

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Speaker 4: if Trump was elected.

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Speaker 5: Well, I always think it's a bit difficult to look

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Speaker 5: into the future. But the point I was making when

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Speaker 5: I said that is that there were a different policy

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Speaker 5: approach and a whole range of issues and we had

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Speaker 5: to be realistic about that.

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Speaker 4: You just said that the world is facing increasingly challenging times,

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Speaker 4: and I've heard you say that Australia is currently facing

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Speaker 4: some of the most challenging strategic circumstances since the end

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Speaker 4: of World War two.

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Speaker 5: Well, I say that, yeah, that good question, am I

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Speaker 5: allowed to just give sixty thirty seconds of history. So

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Speaker 5: we had the worst complete humanity I've ever seen, which

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Speaker 5: was World War Two, and the war came together and

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Speaker 5: the world said, we never want that to happen again.

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Speaker 5: So the world established the United Nations Charter. And what

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Speaker 5: World War two confirm was the US as the predominant

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Speaker 5: economic and military power. And that scenario. I'm not saying

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Speaker 5: it's all been plain sailing, but it's a meant a

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Speaker 5: lot of stability in the world. Since the end of

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Speaker 5: World War Two, Well, we face a pretty different world now.

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Speaker 5: We've got what we call strategic competition, so a competition

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Speaker 5: between the US and China. We have climate change, we

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Speaker 5: have the undermining of the UN Charter, for example with

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Speaker 5: the invasion of Ukraine. So we're in a world where

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Speaker 5: we have to make our way in much more difficult

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Speaker 5: circumstances than we have had at probably any time since

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Speaker 5: the end of World War Two.

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Speaker 4: By using that kind of language, how do you then

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Speaker 4: reassure Australians that we're not on the brink of a

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Speaker 4: really big conflict.

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Speaker 5: I don't ever try to make people frightened but I

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Speaker 5: also think and the roles that we have now to

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Speaker 5: make sure we give people an understanding of that of

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Speaker 5: the world in which we leave and explain the choices

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Speaker 5: we're making in that world.

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Speaker 4: But to be clear, that doesn't mean that you think

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Speaker 4: we're on the brink of any conflict of that size.

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Speaker 5: I think I think that we always have to work

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Speaker 5: to a sure peace. I think every nation pretty much

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Speaker 5: is saying we want peace, really except for you know.

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Speaker 5: I mean, I think when Russia's at warrior with Ukraine,

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Speaker 5: is it North Korea is continuing to test in a

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Speaker 5: pretty provocative manner of nuclear weapons. But I think most

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Speaker 5: people around the world wouldn't you say, want peace?

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Speaker 4: I think you would know better than me.

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Speaker 5: Oh, I mean, I think this is why we've got

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Speaker 5: to push back on what's happened in Ukraine.

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Speaker 4: In February, you delivered a speech in London where you

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Speaker 4: spoke about Britain acknowledge it's colonial past. Do you think

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Speaker 4: Australia has confronted its past.

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Speaker 5: That's a good question, and I think part of what

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Speaker 5: we have done over the last twenty years is taking

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Speaker 5: steps to acknowledging that. And I was part of a

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Speaker 5: government led by Kevin Rudd who apologized to the Stolen Generation.

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Speaker 5: I remember how hard many people fought against that, but

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Speaker 5: it was an important step for us about looking into

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Speaker 5: the past and recognizing what had happened. So, yes, this

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Speaker 5: is an ongoing project. I don't think of it like

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Speaker 5: there's you sort of cross a line, like you're running

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Speaker 5: a race across a finish line. I think it's a path,

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Speaker 5: isn't It's a journey. We walked together. So we've got

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Speaker 5: a long way to go, but we're coming a long

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Speaker 5: way and part of what we are doing with the

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Speaker 5: Voice is to keep walking together.

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Speaker 4: Let's talk about the voice. If the referendum is not successful,

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Speaker 4: how do you think Australia will be perceived on the

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Speaker 4: global stage.

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Speaker 5: Or Billy, I'm campaigning to win and if it's not

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Speaker 5: the look, we are not the only country that is

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Speaker 5: on this journey. Lots of other countries are in the

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Speaker 5: process of or are walking the same journey or similar

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Speaker 5: journey with their first first people's It's something many countries,

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Speaker 5: a number of countries are doing and I think if

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Speaker 5: we are successful, I think we have a lot to

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Speaker 5: gain are being more united.

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Speaker 4: The question that was about if it's not successful. But

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Speaker 4: are you not ready to think about.

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Speaker 5: Well, I'm not ready to talk to you about that, noted,

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Speaker 5: but don't take it personally.

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Speaker 1: I will.

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Speaker 4: Now you're at the forefront of the marriage equality campaign,

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Speaker 4: where a few weeks out from when Australia is going

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Speaker 4: to vote in the referendum. How are you feeling now

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Speaker 4: compared to how you felt a few weeks out from

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Speaker 4: the marriage equality vote.

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Speaker 5: Look, I think this is harder in many ways way

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Speaker 5: because people of your generation on marriage equality, the questions

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Speaker 5: went from we really need to do this too, Why

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Speaker 5: haven't you people done this? I think on First Nations issues,

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Speaker 5: we've got more conversations to have and more understanding to

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Speaker 5: develop within our community about our history, about the experience

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Speaker 5: of First Nations people and what we have to do.

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Speaker 4: If you're saying, though, that there's still so much that

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Speaker 4: Australians need to learn, does that mean that you are

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Speaker 4: feeling less optimistic about this referendum than you were about

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Speaker 4: the marriage equality vote.

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Speaker 5: Oh, we had to learn that too. I just think

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Speaker 5: that younger Australian's got there pretty.

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Speaker 4: Fast and they're not this very well.

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Speaker 5: I think they are now. I hope we win and

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Speaker 5: I believe we can.

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Speaker 4: I want to end on this note. In your role

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Speaker 4: as Foreign Minister, you get to see and know things

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Speaker 4: about the world that we never will. I want you

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Speaker 4: to picture a twelve year old girl coming up to

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Speaker 4: you and she asks.

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Speaker 5: You, it's my daughter.

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Speaker 4: Well your daughter. You go to you and asking you,

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Speaker 4: is world peace ever possible? How would you answer that?

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Speaker 5: Yes? But we have to work for it, so you.

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Speaker 4: Do see a future where there is world peace.

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Speaker 5: I think human beings can always choose our future. I'm

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Speaker 5: not one that believes that there's some sort of determined outcome,

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Speaker 5: but you have to work for it. And that's what

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Speaker 5: I want to do. And it's a great privilege of

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Speaker 5: this job is I get the opportion to do that.

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Speaker 4: Pennywog, thank you so much for joining the Daily OS.

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Speaker 4: We really appreciate it.

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Speaker 5: Good to speak with you.

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Speaker 2: Thanks to our Foreign Minister Pennywong for dropping by the

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Speaker 2: office and sitting down with Billy. If you have any

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Speaker 2: other high profile politicians you'd like us to chat to,

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Speaker 2: we'd love to have some names nominated and we'll do

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Speaker 2: our best to chase them up for you. We'll be

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Speaker 2: back again in your ears tomorrow. Until then, have a

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Speaker 2: great day.