1 00:00:00,800 --> 00:00:04,240 Speaker 1: If you're a regular How I Work listener, you've probably 2 00:00:04,280 --> 00:00:06,400 Speaker 1: heard me talk about the four day week and how 3 00:00:06,519 --> 00:00:10,480 Speaker 1: much we love it at Inventium. But if you're thinking 4 00:00:10,560 --> 00:00:14,320 Speaker 1: about implementing it in your own organization or trying to 5 00:00:14,360 --> 00:00:18,239 Speaker 1: convince your boss it's a good idea, You've probably also 6 00:00:18,440 --> 00:00:22,920 Speaker 1: got a lot of questions like how do you cram 7 00:00:23,000 --> 00:00:26,799 Speaker 1: five days work into four? Should everyone take the same 8 00:00:26,880 --> 00:00:30,720 Speaker 1: day off or should you stagger people schedules, what happens 9 00:00:30,720 --> 00:00:33,000 Speaker 1: when people take sick leave? And does it work for 10 00:00:33,479 --> 00:00:38,240 Speaker 1: part timers and shift workers? Whatever question you've got about 11 00:00:38,240 --> 00:00:41,640 Speaker 1: the four day week, I've probably answered it. In a 12 00:00:41,680 --> 00:00:46,640 Speaker 1: recent virtual Ask Me Anything event, Inventium's head of consulting, 13 00:00:47,040 --> 00:00:50,560 Speaker 1: Zoe Aitken, sat down with me and a remote live 14 00:00:50,760 --> 00:00:54,320 Speaker 1: audience to discuss everything you need to know about the 15 00:00:54,400 --> 00:00:57,639 Speaker 1: four day week, from the big structural decisions you need 16 00:00:57,680 --> 00:01:06,440 Speaker 1: to make right down to the nitty gritty details. My 17 00:01:06,600 --> 00:01:10,320 Speaker 1: name is doctor Amantha Imber. I'm an organizational psychologist and 18 00:01:10,360 --> 00:01:14,280 Speaker 1: the founder of behavioral science consultancy Inventium, and this is 19 00:01:14,360 --> 00:01:17,320 Speaker 1: How I Work, a show about how to help you 20 00:01:17,560 --> 00:01:18,679 Speaker 1: do your best work. 21 00:01:19,280 --> 00:01:21,240 Speaker 2: So I'd like to know how you've made a four 22 00:01:21,280 --> 00:01:24,240 Speaker 2: day week work without having to work longer day. So 23 00:01:24,280 --> 00:01:26,640 Speaker 2: there were lots of questions around this theme of how 24 00:01:26,680 --> 00:01:28,560 Speaker 2: we do it without having to work longer. 25 00:01:28,880 --> 00:01:31,959 Speaker 3: So many and now for those of you that know, 26 00:01:32,040 --> 00:01:33,240 Speaker 3: the origin of the four. 27 00:01:33,160 --> 00:01:37,520 Speaker 1: Day week came from Petrogardian co founded by Andrew Barnes, 28 00:01:37,680 --> 00:01:40,600 Speaker 1: and the inside that Andrew had when he started this 29 00:01:40,680 --> 00:01:43,000 Speaker 1: concept of the four day week, which is one. 30 00:01:42,959 --> 00:01:45,080 Speaker 3: Hundred percent of your pay. 31 00:01:45,200 --> 00:01:48,840 Speaker 1: Let's say your full time in eighty percent of the time, 32 00:01:49,040 --> 00:01:53,000 Speaker 1: so for normal length days, but with the expectation of 33 00:01:53,000 --> 00:01:56,520 Speaker 1: one hundred percent productivity. So Andrew was reading an article 34 00:01:57,360 --> 00:01:59,400 Speaker 1: when he was on a plane, I think, going to London, 35 00:01:59,520 --> 00:02:02,200 Speaker 1: and it said that the average person is only truly 36 00:02:02,240 --> 00:02:04,880 Speaker 1: productive for about sort of two to three hours a 37 00:02:04,960 --> 00:02:05,840 Speaker 1: day because. 38 00:02:05,640 --> 00:02:09,120 Speaker 3: The rest of the time is spent with you know. 39 00:02:09,040 --> 00:02:15,880 Speaker 1: Digital abstractions, checking social media, having you know, random conversations, interruptions, 40 00:02:16,360 --> 00:02:20,079 Speaker 1: pointless meetings. So he thought, well, if we're really only 41 00:02:20,120 --> 00:02:22,720 Speaker 1: productive for a couple of hours a day, surely we 42 00:02:22,720 --> 00:02:25,200 Speaker 1: could shave off one day a week and just be 43 00:02:25,480 --> 00:02:27,800 Speaker 1: ultra focused on those four days. We might even be 44 00:02:27,840 --> 00:02:31,080 Speaker 1: more productive. So I think it's important to acknowledge that 45 00:02:31,919 --> 00:02:35,440 Speaker 1: you not u so you're super productive, but everyone else 46 00:02:35,520 --> 00:02:40,160 Speaker 1: listening is not productive one hundred percent of the time. 47 00:02:40,240 --> 00:02:43,080 Speaker 1: I know I'm certainly not. So I want to share 48 00:02:43,520 --> 00:02:48,080 Speaker 1: three things that we have done at Inventium that have 49 00:02:48,240 --> 00:02:52,600 Speaker 1: allowed us to basically boost our productivity so we do 50 00:02:52,800 --> 00:02:53,120 Speaker 1: make the. 51 00:02:53,080 --> 00:02:55,320 Speaker 3: Four day week work in four normal length day. 52 00:02:55,400 --> 00:03:01,480 Speaker 1: So firstly, reducing meetings is an absolutely massive one. I 53 00:03:01,520 --> 00:03:04,360 Speaker 1: know when we're prepping for today, I was chatting to 54 00:03:04,800 --> 00:03:07,400 Speaker 1: my assistant Han, who is also the magician that made 55 00:03:07,400 --> 00:03:10,720 Speaker 1: the chat box work again, and she reckons in her 56 00:03:10,800 --> 00:03:13,000 Speaker 1: old job, and I won't say where she was working, 57 00:03:13,960 --> 00:03:17,480 Speaker 1: but let's just say it was kind of government ish. 58 00:03:17,600 --> 00:03:21,840 Speaker 1: She was in five hours worth of meetings every day. 59 00:03:22,080 --> 00:03:23,760 Speaker 3: So that is a very quick win. 60 00:03:23,960 --> 00:03:26,840 Speaker 1: I would say to reduce the number of meetings or 61 00:03:26,840 --> 00:03:29,080 Speaker 1: hours worth of meetings that you're in and make the 62 00:03:29,120 --> 00:03:30,079 Speaker 1: ones that you are in. 63 00:03:30,400 --> 00:03:34,720 Speaker 3: Better. Second, reduce distractions. 64 00:03:35,280 --> 00:03:38,400 Speaker 1: I prefer brute force approaches for this, so actually like 65 00:03:38,600 --> 00:03:42,240 Speaker 1: using software like freedom dot t for example, which hand 66 00:03:42,240 --> 00:03:44,800 Speaker 1: will pop in the chat box to literally lock you 67 00:03:44,920 --> 00:03:48,200 Speaker 1: out of things that you find distracting for the hours 68 00:03:48,280 --> 00:03:49,640 Speaker 1: or chunks of time where you want to be doing 69 00:03:49,680 --> 00:03:56,840 Speaker 1: focused work, and certainly for me, time box everything. So 70 00:03:56,920 --> 00:03:59,160 Speaker 1: time boxing is where you book a meeting with yourself. 71 00:03:59,240 --> 00:04:02,960 Speaker 1: So all my mornings are time boxed in terms of 72 00:04:03,040 --> 00:04:05,360 Speaker 1: what's the deep focused work that I want to get done. 73 00:04:06,040 --> 00:04:08,400 Speaker 1: And if I'm being really diligent, I'll even time box 74 00:04:08,440 --> 00:04:11,440 Speaker 1: my emails, So make a meeting with myself to check emails. 75 00:04:11,440 --> 00:04:14,280 Speaker 1: Although email is my achilles here, I don't always do 76 00:04:14,400 --> 00:04:15,960 Speaker 1: that wonderfully. 77 00:04:17,360 --> 00:04:20,440 Speaker 2: All right, next question is there a honeymoon period issue? 78 00:04:20,839 --> 00:04:23,880 Speaker 2: So where are peddling twenty percent faster? What does normal 79 00:04:23,960 --> 00:04:26,440 Speaker 2: look like after a year or so for us? 80 00:04:27,040 --> 00:04:30,080 Speaker 1: So that question and just how it's worded that you're 81 00:04:30,120 --> 00:04:34,120 Speaker 1: peddling twenty percent faster makes me think that you might 82 00:04:34,480 --> 00:04:38,400 Speaker 1: maybe And all these questions are anonymous by the way 83 00:04:39,080 --> 00:04:41,440 Speaker 1: that maybe you've implemented the four day week, but you 84 00:04:41,560 --> 00:04:45,560 Speaker 1: haven't actually done any training to change behavior, and that 85 00:04:45,720 --> 00:04:49,040 Speaker 1: is a critical step. Like don't move to a four 86 00:04:49,120 --> 00:04:51,760 Speaker 1: day week and just expect everyone to adjust. 87 00:04:52,760 --> 00:04:54,400 Speaker 3: That just didn't how things work. 88 00:04:54,520 --> 00:04:57,040 Speaker 1: So even at Inventing, where we spend a lot of 89 00:04:57,080 --> 00:05:00,000 Speaker 1: our time training people in how to work more productive, 90 00:05:00,560 --> 00:05:04,120 Speaker 1: we actually doubled down on that training. I ran some 91 00:05:04,160 --> 00:05:08,680 Speaker 1: additional training for the team. So you absolutely have to 92 00:05:08,839 --> 00:05:11,760 Speaker 1: change how you approach your work otherwise it is a 93 00:05:11,760 --> 00:05:15,760 Speaker 1: big fat stress. So you're not actually peddling twenty percent faster, 94 00:05:16,040 --> 00:05:16,640 Speaker 1: is the answer? 95 00:05:17,400 --> 00:05:19,560 Speaker 2: All right? If someone needed to work on a Friday, 96 00:05:19,960 --> 00:05:23,240 Speaker 2: was this widely communicated amongst the team? What level of 97 00:05:23,279 --> 00:05:26,960 Speaker 2: transparency or anonymity was implemented, and did this have an 98 00:05:27,000 --> 00:05:30,680 Speaker 2: impact on the ultimate success of the experiment? Like did 99 00:05:30,680 --> 00:05:32,159 Speaker 2: anyone secretly log in? 100 00:05:33,720 --> 00:05:36,160 Speaker 3: I love that they just asked that in their question, did. 101 00:05:36,040 --> 00:05:37,880 Speaker 2: Anyone secretly log in? Yeah? 102 00:05:37,880 --> 00:05:45,000 Speaker 1: In brackets, we have cameras at everyone's houses, so we don't. 103 00:05:45,000 --> 00:05:46,120 Speaker 3: We don't, by the way. 104 00:05:46,760 --> 00:05:51,000 Speaker 1: So so yeah, we're Look, it's it's very transparent. And 105 00:05:51,240 --> 00:05:55,440 Speaker 1: I think there's there's two different types of organizations that 106 00:05:55,800 --> 00:05:57,080 Speaker 1: do the four day week. 107 00:05:57,400 --> 00:06:00,880 Speaker 3: The first type that are very very rare. I think 108 00:06:00,920 --> 00:06:02,120 Speaker 3: I've only come across. 109 00:06:01,800 --> 00:06:06,160 Speaker 1: One or two is where you absolutely do not work 110 00:06:06,240 --> 00:06:09,599 Speaker 1: under any circumstances on that fifth day. But that's actually 111 00:06:09,680 --> 00:06:14,320 Speaker 1: quite rare. So most organizations, and certainly from what I've heard, 112 00:06:14,360 --> 00:06:18,760 Speaker 1: we do a lot with the four day week. Global Business, 113 00:06:18,800 --> 00:06:22,560 Speaker 1: which is Andrew Barnes's not for profit that's been running 114 00:06:22,600 --> 00:06:25,920 Speaker 1: a lot of pilot studies globally what they've said from 115 00:06:25,960 --> 00:06:28,880 Speaker 1: the research they've done is that it's more of a 116 00:06:29,040 --> 00:06:32,560 Speaker 1: mindset shift. So from their research, they've found that companies 117 00:06:32,600 --> 00:06:35,640 Speaker 1: that have adopted the four day week, on average work 118 00:06:35,839 --> 00:06:40,279 Speaker 1: six hours less per week, so a full day is 119 00:06:40,279 --> 00:06:44,479 Speaker 1: typically seven to eight hours. So it's not like people 120 00:06:44,680 --> 00:06:47,600 Speaker 1: are just absolutely not going near their computer. If they 121 00:06:47,640 --> 00:06:49,760 Speaker 1: do computer basework on that fifth. 122 00:06:49,520 --> 00:06:50,960 Speaker 3: Day, they may well be. 123 00:06:51,760 --> 00:06:53,440 Speaker 1: And I know for a lot of us on the team, 124 00:06:53,720 --> 00:06:56,560 Speaker 1: we will just check our inbox a couple of times 125 00:06:56,640 --> 00:06:57,320 Speaker 1: during the day. 126 00:06:57,800 --> 00:07:00,360 Speaker 3: No one is forcing anyone to do that. 127 00:07:00,360 --> 00:07:04,599 Speaker 1: That's certainly not my expectation as the founder of the business, 128 00:07:04,640 --> 00:07:06,880 Speaker 1: it is not Miss's expectation as the CEO. 129 00:07:07,040 --> 00:07:09,320 Speaker 3: But people just kind of do that. 130 00:07:09,440 --> 00:07:12,640 Speaker 1: And from our own research, we found that people take 131 00:07:13,800 --> 00:07:16,560 Speaker 1: the fifth day, so I should say we call the 132 00:07:16,600 --> 00:07:20,480 Speaker 1: initiative gift of the fifth with the with the theory 133 00:07:20,520 --> 00:07:23,160 Speaker 1: being that if you can get your work done from 134 00:07:23,240 --> 00:07:26,240 Speaker 1: Monday to Thursday, you get the gift of time on 135 00:07:26,280 --> 00:07:28,920 Speaker 1: the fifth day of the week, which is Friday. So 136 00:07:29,160 --> 00:07:31,880 Speaker 1: on average, people take the gift of the fifth I 137 00:07:32,200 --> 00:07:35,920 Speaker 1: take Friday off about seventy five percent of the time. 138 00:07:36,680 --> 00:07:38,760 Speaker 2: So how do you set your week's work so you 139 00:07:38,800 --> 00:07:41,120 Speaker 2: know when you've completed it so you can take Friday off. 140 00:07:42,000 --> 00:07:44,440 Speaker 1: And this is such a good question because I imagine 141 00:07:44,480 --> 00:07:49,520 Speaker 1: most people dialing in and not like building widgets. 142 00:07:49,720 --> 00:07:52,360 Speaker 3: And you're not, oh, look at that, your cat's there. 143 00:07:52,520 --> 00:07:57,880 Speaker 1: Hello, I've locked my dog lunar out because I'll behave. 144 00:07:57,640 --> 00:07:59,720 Speaker 2: Probably should have done that. 145 00:08:00,840 --> 00:08:04,600 Speaker 1: So I'm going to just assume that most people are 146 00:08:04,600 --> 00:08:06,720 Speaker 1: not like building widgets and you know how many widgets 147 00:08:06,720 --> 00:08:08,720 Speaker 1: you need to build per hour. That is not how 148 00:08:08,720 --> 00:08:10,840 Speaker 1: the world of work works for a lot of us. 149 00:08:11,400 --> 00:08:16,040 Speaker 1: So at Inventium we use okayrs objectives and key results. 150 00:08:16,560 --> 00:08:19,400 Speaker 1: If you have no idea what I'm talking about. It 151 00:08:19,520 --> 00:08:24,440 Speaker 1: is the goal setting framework used by by Intel, and 152 00:08:24,480 --> 00:08:26,400 Speaker 1: it was then brought into Google and then a lot 153 00:08:26,400 --> 00:08:28,760 Speaker 1: of particularly in the tech industry, a lot of companies 154 00:08:28,800 --> 00:08:31,280 Speaker 1: have adopted that. If you can to dive into okayrs, 155 00:08:31,720 --> 00:08:35,240 Speaker 1: check out measure what Matters by John Dour and our 156 00:08:35,280 --> 00:08:37,280 Speaker 1: hand will pop a link a link. 157 00:08:37,120 --> 00:08:38,840 Speaker 3: To that in the chat box. 158 00:08:39,600 --> 00:08:44,920 Speaker 1: So we use OKAYR so everybody has several objectives and 159 00:08:45,400 --> 00:08:50,160 Speaker 1: key results and key results are objective, quantifiable, measurable things. 160 00:08:51,240 --> 00:08:53,000 Speaker 3: We used to have them quarterly. 161 00:08:53,120 --> 00:08:57,840 Speaker 1: Now most people's okay rs I think are annual, but 162 00:08:57,880 --> 00:09:00,199 Speaker 1: then people break that down into what is that look 163 00:09:00,240 --> 00:09:00,560 Speaker 1: like on a. 164 00:09:00,559 --> 00:09:02,720 Speaker 3: Quarterly basis in terms of what I need to achieve? 165 00:09:02,960 --> 00:09:04,480 Speaker 3: And then what does that look like on a monthly 166 00:09:04,520 --> 00:09:05,600 Speaker 3: and a weekly basis? 167 00:09:06,440 --> 00:09:08,400 Speaker 1: And so I know that quite a lot of the 168 00:09:08,480 --> 00:09:11,000 Speaker 1: team have a really clear idea of where they need 169 00:09:11,040 --> 00:09:13,360 Speaker 1: to be at the end of each week, which actually 170 00:09:13,400 --> 00:09:16,600 Speaker 1: makes it quite a clear decision to go. Can I 171 00:09:16,679 --> 00:09:19,760 Speaker 1: take the gift of the fifth knowing that I am 172 00:09:19,880 --> 00:09:22,440 Speaker 1: where I need to be at in progressing towards these 173 00:09:22,480 --> 00:09:24,080 Speaker 1: longer term goals. 174 00:09:24,720 --> 00:09:28,120 Speaker 2: How did you navigate situations when individuals did not deliver 175 00:09:28,240 --> 00:09:30,000 Speaker 2: but still expected the Gift of the fifth? 176 00:09:31,360 --> 00:09:34,440 Speaker 1: It's just direct feedback, Like just with any kind of 177 00:09:34,480 --> 00:09:37,480 Speaker 1: thing where you're dealing with some sort of a performance 178 00:09:37,559 --> 00:09:45,040 Speaker 1: challenge or underperformance. It's simply giving direct feedback and obviously 179 00:09:45,240 --> 00:09:48,760 Speaker 1: making sure that that link is clear between taking the 180 00:09:48,800 --> 00:09:52,240 Speaker 1: Gift of the fifth if you are in a good 181 00:09:52,240 --> 00:09:54,920 Speaker 1: place with your okay ass So simple as that. 182 00:09:55,880 --> 00:09:58,280 Speaker 2: Yeah, all right, I'm moving to the chat box now. 183 00:09:58,320 --> 00:10:00,920 Speaker 2: Anton's asking would it be better to phase in a 184 00:10:01,080 --> 00:10:04,600 Speaker 2: reduced working week or to make a step or to 185 00:10:04,640 --> 00:10:07,000 Speaker 2: make a step change to four days. Also, why do 186 00:10:07,000 --> 00:10:09,640 Speaker 2: you think four is the number and not three point 187 00:10:09,679 --> 00:10:11,400 Speaker 2: eight or four point two for example. 188 00:10:13,559 --> 00:10:17,520 Speaker 1: Look in terms of a phased approach, it's ah like 189 00:10:17,559 --> 00:10:19,559 Speaker 1: I'd be keen to know your thoughts on this Z. 190 00:10:19,960 --> 00:10:22,120 Speaker 1: My thoughts off the top of my head is that 191 00:10:22,200 --> 00:10:26,120 Speaker 1: I've certainly seen and worked with a lot of organizations 192 00:10:26,120 --> 00:10:28,199 Speaker 1: that have taken this approach, like starting with a nine 193 00:10:28,280 --> 00:10:30,800 Speaker 1: day fortnight and then moving to a four day week. 194 00:10:30,920 --> 00:10:36,480 Speaker 1: So it does I feel like it feels less risky, 195 00:10:36,520 --> 00:10:41,040 Speaker 1: But on the downside, you do need a step change 196 00:10:41,040 --> 00:10:43,880 Speaker 1: in behavior to make the four day week work. So 197 00:10:44,320 --> 00:10:49,040 Speaker 1: what can theoretically happen and sometimes in reality happen, is 198 00:10:49,080 --> 00:10:51,240 Speaker 1: if you move to a nine day fortnite, then do 199 00:10:51,360 --> 00:10:55,760 Speaker 1: four day week, like, You're not placing that really big 200 00:10:55,840 --> 00:10:59,079 Speaker 1: constraint in the way that is forcing you to rethink 201 00:10:59,120 --> 00:11:03,120 Speaker 1: you're behavior. So personally, I'm a fan of going straight 202 00:11:03,160 --> 00:11:05,959 Speaker 1: to four day week, but I do understand the thinking 203 00:11:06,000 --> 00:11:08,040 Speaker 1: behind the like moving to a nine day fortnight. 204 00:11:08,120 --> 00:11:10,840 Speaker 2: First Yeah, cool, al right, so let's move on to 205 00:11:10,880 --> 00:11:15,440 Speaker 2: some team and customer type questions. The first one is 206 00:11:15,480 --> 00:11:17,520 Speaker 2: has moving to a four day week had a measurable 207 00:11:17,559 --> 00:11:20,119 Speaker 2: impact on staff? Retention and acquisition. 208 00:11:21,320 --> 00:11:24,640 Speaker 1: Yeah, so when I saw this question, I was thinking, oh, 209 00:11:24,520 --> 00:11:25,920 Speaker 1: who from the team. 210 00:11:25,679 --> 00:11:28,600 Speaker 3: Has left since we started the four day week? And 211 00:11:28,640 --> 00:11:29,359 Speaker 3: I think. 212 00:11:30,679 --> 00:11:33,240 Speaker 1: And I didn't actually check this with miss she would 213 00:11:33,240 --> 00:11:35,120 Speaker 1: probably actually know for sure, but I think we've had 214 00:11:35,200 --> 00:11:36,520 Speaker 1: three people leave. 215 00:11:37,480 --> 00:11:39,720 Speaker 3: Two of those people left. 216 00:11:40,640 --> 00:11:42,760 Speaker 1: Not because they didn't like the four day week, but 217 00:11:42,800 --> 00:11:48,400 Speaker 1: actually because in twenty twenty mid twenty twenty, we made 218 00:11:48,400 --> 00:11:51,160 Speaker 1: the decision to be a remote first business, which means 219 00:11:51,160 --> 00:11:53,800 Speaker 1: that we gave up our leases in our Melbourne and 220 00:11:53,840 --> 00:11:56,600 Speaker 1: Sydney offices and we all work from home or really 221 00:11:56,640 --> 00:12:00,240 Speaker 1: wherever the hell we want to work from, and that 222 00:12:00,240 --> 00:12:03,720 Speaker 1: that kind of business doesn't suit everyone, and you know, 223 00:12:03,760 --> 00:12:06,360 Speaker 1: it just it just wasn't really working for those two individuals, 224 00:12:06,400 --> 00:12:08,400 Speaker 1: so they left for that reason. 225 00:12:09,240 --> 00:12:11,600 Speaker 3: And then I think the only other person that's left 226 00:12:12,640 --> 00:12:15,880 Speaker 3: who is the wonderful Gabs who left last. 227 00:12:15,559 --> 00:12:20,760 Speaker 1: Week very sadly it was simply because her dad approached 228 00:12:20,840 --> 00:12:23,040 Speaker 1: her to work in the family business. 229 00:12:23,600 --> 00:12:25,760 Speaker 3: Damn her dad, Damn her dad. 230 00:12:26,080 --> 00:12:29,720 Speaker 1: Anyway, we're trying to lure her back. Maybe maybe the 231 00:12:29,760 --> 00:12:31,480 Speaker 1: culture really chocking? 232 00:12:32,720 --> 00:12:36,080 Speaker 2: All right? What was this staff dynamic when some staff 233 00:12:36,120 --> 00:12:38,679 Speaker 2: were taking Friday off and hence completed their work and 234 00:12:38,800 --> 00:12:41,360 Speaker 2: others who worked on a Friday implying that they didn't 235 00:12:41,400 --> 00:12:44,240 Speaker 2: complete their work for the week. Was there any discomfort 236 00:12:44,280 --> 00:12:47,160 Speaker 2: between people and how do people respond with some taking 237 00:12:47,200 --> 00:12:48,560 Speaker 2: time off and others not. 238 00:12:49,840 --> 00:12:53,120 Speaker 1: Yes, that's a good question because we thought that would 239 00:12:53,120 --> 00:12:55,199 Speaker 1: be an issue. I do just want it just while 240 00:12:55,240 --> 00:12:58,080 Speaker 1: I remember add something to that last question, because while 241 00:12:58,120 --> 00:13:00,599 Speaker 1: we have had three people leave, I do want to 242 00:13:00,600 --> 00:13:03,120 Speaker 1: point out that no one left to go to a competitor. 243 00:13:03,160 --> 00:13:05,400 Speaker 1: And I think that that's really important when you're thinking 244 00:13:05,480 --> 00:13:09,520 Speaker 1: why would you do a four day week, Like I 245 00:13:09,600 --> 00:13:13,439 Speaker 1: genuinely believe it is a big competitive advantage, like if 246 00:13:13,480 --> 00:13:17,440 Speaker 1: you are fighting in the war for talent to get 247 00:13:17,480 --> 00:13:18,800 Speaker 1: the best staff. 248 00:13:19,960 --> 00:13:22,679 Speaker 3: Like and certainly we do it Inventium. We've got very 249 00:13:22,720 --> 00:13:23,440 Speaker 3: high standards. 250 00:13:23,440 --> 00:13:25,559 Speaker 1: I'd say for every job that we advertise, we might 251 00:13:25,600 --> 00:13:28,400 Speaker 1: get one hundred or two hundred applicants and we would 252 00:13:28,480 --> 00:13:31,200 Speaker 1: choose like the very best person from that pool. And 253 00:13:31,240 --> 00:13:33,080 Speaker 1: sometimes we might not choose anyone if they're not up 254 00:13:33,080 --> 00:13:35,880 Speaker 1: to the standards. So keeping those amazing people that we 255 00:13:35,960 --> 00:13:38,840 Speaker 1: find is super super critical. No one's left to go 256 00:13:38,880 --> 00:13:39,679 Speaker 1: to a competitor. 257 00:13:40,720 --> 00:13:44,520 Speaker 3: And yeah, like there aren't too many I mean we're 258 00:13:44,600 --> 00:13:45,000 Speaker 3: I guess. 259 00:13:44,920 --> 00:13:47,400 Speaker 1: Quite unique because a firm, but certainly in professional services 260 00:13:47,400 --> 00:13:49,679 Speaker 1: there's not too many organizations that are offering the four 261 00:13:49,720 --> 00:13:51,479 Speaker 1: day week, so that's probably worth noting. 262 00:13:51,400 --> 00:13:52,760 Speaker 3: Now onto this question. 263 00:13:53,120 --> 00:13:56,440 Speaker 1: So we thought that there might be issues and resentment, 264 00:13:58,640 --> 00:14:00,600 Speaker 1: you know, if some people had to work on a Friday, 265 00:14:00,679 --> 00:14:01,400 Speaker 1: some didn't. 266 00:14:02,040 --> 00:14:03,920 Speaker 3: We did give that a lot of thought. 267 00:14:03,800 --> 00:14:09,839 Speaker 1: And there certainly are occasions where inventiologists or like consultants 268 00:14:10,200 --> 00:14:12,440 Speaker 1: in our business have to work on Fridays. 269 00:14:12,440 --> 00:14:14,720 Speaker 3: That would it's quite rare. 270 00:14:14,800 --> 00:14:18,240 Speaker 1: It would only be when a client's evental workshop is 271 00:14:18,280 --> 00:14:22,440 Speaker 1: specifically scheduled for a Friday and we need to fit 272 00:14:22,480 --> 00:14:25,400 Speaker 1: in around that, or say when we've got an external 273 00:14:25,880 --> 00:14:29,160 Speaker 1: deadline like we obviously run the most innovative companies and 274 00:14:29,200 --> 00:14:33,840 Speaker 1: best places to Work competitions for the AFR, and often 275 00:14:34,040 --> 00:14:39,000 Speaker 1: those like deadline phenomenations or entries is on a Friday, 276 00:14:40,040 --> 00:14:41,880 Speaker 1: and so occasionally it means people have to work on 277 00:14:41,920 --> 00:14:47,400 Speaker 1: a Friday. That is the exception, not the norm. But interesting, 278 00:14:47,520 --> 00:14:50,760 Speaker 1: I don't think that there's been resentment. We sort of 279 00:14:51,360 --> 00:14:54,960 Speaker 1: we're all very cognizant of it. And ultimately, aside from 280 00:14:55,000 --> 00:14:58,800 Speaker 1: those rare events that might come up maybe once a 281 00:14:58,880 --> 00:15:01,400 Speaker 1: quarter or something like that. I think when we've actually 282 00:15:01,560 --> 00:15:04,920 Speaker 1: done the mats and looked at that, like it really 283 00:15:04,960 --> 00:15:08,520 Speaker 1: is about personal responsibility, like everyone is responsible for getting 284 00:15:08,560 --> 00:15:12,120 Speaker 1: their work done being ultra productive. But also it's like 285 00:15:12,200 --> 00:15:13,640 Speaker 1: if someone wants to have a bit more of a 286 00:15:13,680 --> 00:15:16,560 Speaker 1: flexible week and maybe take some personal appointments between Monday 287 00:15:16,560 --> 00:15:19,120 Speaker 1: and Thursday, you know that you've got Friday to catch 288 00:15:19,240 --> 00:15:21,840 Speaker 1: up on it. So so I don't know, like what 289 00:15:21,880 --> 00:15:23,320 Speaker 1: your experience has been like with. 290 00:15:23,320 --> 00:15:27,560 Speaker 2: This, Yeah, pretty similar, And I think there is really 291 00:15:27,600 --> 00:15:31,080 Speaker 2: just an appreciation in the team that everyone's workload comes 292 00:15:31,120 --> 00:15:32,920 Speaker 2: in ebbs and flows. So there will be times when 293 00:15:32,960 --> 00:15:35,440 Speaker 2: I might need to work consecutive Fridays, for instance it's 294 00:15:35,440 --> 00:15:37,640 Speaker 2: a really busy period, or I have client workshops on 295 00:15:37,680 --> 00:15:40,240 Speaker 2: a Friday, but then there'll be other times when I 296 00:15:40,280 --> 00:15:42,960 Speaker 2: don't and I'm able to take my Friday often, and 297 00:15:43,000 --> 00:15:45,280 Speaker 2: you're same with other team members. They'll have busy periods 298 00:15:45,280 --> 00:15:47,120 Speaker 2: where they're not able to take it, but we also 299 00:15:47,240 --> 00:15:48,800 Speaker 2: know that in time they will be able to take it. 300 00:15:48,840 --> 00:15:51,280 Speaker 2: So I think I try not to feel too guilty, 301 00:15:51,320 --> 00:15:53,920 Speaker 2: because I do think there is a respect amongst the 302 00:15:53,920 --> 00:15:56,280 Speaker 2: team and an appreciation amongst the team that all of 303 00:15:56,320 --> 00:15:58,800 Speaker 2: our workloads differ and they do go in ebbs and flows, 304 00:15:58,960 --> 00:16:00,640 Speaker 2: and if we can't take it, you know one week, 305 00:16:00,680 --> 00:16:04,360 Speaker 2: we'll be able to take it the next. Okay, I'm 306 00:16:04,400 --> 00:16:06,400 Speaker 2: going to get to my next question, which is how 307 00:16:06,400 --> 00:16:10,320 Speaker 2: did you manage with your customer expectations regarding availability of 308 00:16:10,360 --> 00:16:12,760 Speaker 2: team members with the four day week. 309 00:16:14,640 --> 00:16:18,880 Speaker 1: So, as I said, like, we still do client deliveries 310 00:16:18,920 --> 00:16:21,920 Speaker 1: on a Friday where the event is locked in on 311 00:16:21,960 --> 00:16:24,680 Speaker 1: that date, but we wouldn't voluntarily. 312 00:16:24,200 --> 00:16:25,760 Speaker 3: Offer to do a workshop on a Friday. 313 00:16:25,800 --> 00:16:28,240 Speaker 1: And also we just know from many, many years of 314 00:16:28,280 --> 00:16:32,440 Speaker 1: experience workshops on Fridays, like people are tuned out, they're 315 00:16:32,440 --> 00:16:34,960 Speaker 1: ready for the weekend. So if like, if you're thinking 316 00:16:35,040 --> 00:16:36,760 Speaker 1: that you've got a workshop to run, just don't do 317 00:16:36,800 --> 00:16:41,840 Speaker 1: it on a Friday. That's crazy when in terms of urgency, 318 00:16:42,760 --> 00:16:47,680 Speaker 1: so you would be aware, we are not neurosurgeons. No 319 00:16:47,720 --> 00:16:50,960 Speaker 1: one is going to die if we are away. 320 00:16:50,680 --> 00:16:51,320 Speaker 3: On a Friday. 321 00:16:52,160 --> 00:16:55,680 Speaker 1: And interestingly, during our six month experiment, we did actually 322 00:16:55,800 --> 00:16:59,920 Speaker 1: track how many urgent things came in on a Friday, 323 00:17:00,520 --> 00:17:03,440 Speaker 1: and I think there were five or six over a 324 00:17:03,480 --> 00:17:07,199 Speaker 1: six month period, So it's really rare that we have 325 00:17:07,320 --> 00:17:13,320 Speaker 1: true emergencies on a Friday, But like if we do, 326 00:17:13,640 --> 00:17:18,720 Speaker 1: like we're we're here, and if we absolutely can't be contacted, 327 00:17:19,480 --> 00:17:22,040 Speaker 1: like if we're at a wedding all day or we're 328 00:17:22,040 --> 00:17:24,840 Speaker 1: starting our overseas trip or something like that, we would 329 00:17:24,880 --> 00:17:25,720 Speaker 1: actually take that. 330 00:17:25,720 --> 00:17:27,040 Speaker 3: As an annual leave day. 331 00:17:27,160 --> 00:17:30,440 Speaker 1: So we're actually on leave as opposed to just taking 332 00:17:30,480 --> 00:17:32,960 Speaker 1: the gift of the fifth Yeah. 333 00:17:33,160 --> 00:17:36,040 Speaker 2: Correct, All right, so there's now we're now moving into 334 00:17:36,080 --> 00:17:39,040 Speaker 2: kind of some rapid fire operational style questions. And I 335 00:17:39,040 --> 00:17:41,359 Speaker 2: think this might address a lot of the questions that 336 00:17:41,400 --> 00:17:43,680 Speaker 2: we've got sitting in the chat box. So let's let's 337 00:17:43,680 --> 00:17:47,360 Speaker 2: go with rapid fire. How do you manage to work 338 00:17:47,400 --> 00:17:49,680 Speaker 2: as conversation claims that occur on the fifth day or 339 00:17:49,680 --> 00:17:50,200 Speaker 2: the Friday. 340 00:17:50,920 --> 00:17:53,280 Speaker 1: Yeah, So this is a good question because technically, like 341 00:17:53,320 --> 00:17:57,320 Speaker 1: if you look at certainly our employment contract, probably your 342 00:17:57,480 --> 00:18:02,840 Speaker 1: employment contract, you're still employing people five days a week. 343 00:18:03,080 --> 00:18:08,480 Speaker 1: So people are still employed by inventing on Fridays, which 344 00:18:08,560 --> 00:18:12,080 Speaker 1: means they're covered for anything they need to be covered by. 345 00:18:12,480 --> 00:18:17,080 Speaker 1: This is also very interesting because it's forced us to 346 00:18:17,119 --> 00:18:20,800 Speaker 1: think about, well, what can people actually do on a Friday, Like, 347 00:18:20,880 --> 00:18:25,000 Speaker 1: for example, you know it gets really tricky, Like if 348 00:18:25,000 --> 00:18:28,640 Speaker 1: someone wants to have a second job and they're rostered 349 00:18:28,680 --> 00:18:32,280 Speaker 1: on a Friday, if you kind of play that out 350 00:18:32,280 --> 00:18:36,280 Speaker 1: from an employment contract view, like if they fall over 351 00:18:36,400 --> 00:18:40,000 Speaker 1: and slip at the other job that they're rosted for 352 00:18:40,040 --> 00:18:43,760 Speaker 1: on a Friday, what happens in terms of an insurance 353 00:18:43,760 --> 00:18:46,960 Speaker 1: point of view if they come up with a great idea, 354 00:18:47,480 --> 00:18:52,160 Speaker 1: who owns that their primary job or their secondary job. 355 00:18:52,280 --> 00:18:55,679 Speaker 1: So my advice would be just for anyone thinking of 356 00:18:55,720 --> 00:18:57,760 Speaker 1: doing that, just think that through. 357 00:18:57,920 --> 00:19:01,000 Speaker 3: Because still technically people are employed by your. 358 00:19:00,960 --> 00:19:04,400 Speaker 1: Organization for five days a week, assuming that they're full 359 00:19:04,400 --> 00:19:06,480 Speaker 1: time in a normal standard employment contract. 360 00:19:08,040 --> 00:19:11,800 Speaker 2: Cool where there's salary cuts or lots of any other perts. 361 00:19:12,960 --> 00:19:16,800 Speaker 1: No, no, because that is the point of the four 362 00:19:16,920 --> 00:19:20,480 Speaker 1: day week. You don't reduce salary. People still get their 363 00:19:20,520 --> 00:19:22,280 Speaker 1: full time one hundred percent of the salary. 364 00:19:22,440 --> 00:19:25,359 Speaker 3: So in a way, you know, like one way like 365 00:19:25,400 --> 00:19:25,840 Speaker 3: if you're. 366 00:19:25,680 --> 00:19:29,880 Speaker 1: Thinking, I mean, you know, it's an easy sell to employees, 367 00:19:29,960 --> 00:19:32,959 Speaker 1: but you know, like another way of looking at it 368 00:19:33,000 --> 00:19:37,159 Speaker 1: is it's like everyone's just about to receive like a 369 00:19:37,200 --> 00:19:39,880 Speaker 1: twenty five percent pay rise. I think it works out 370 00:19:39,920 --> 00:19:42,879 Speaker 1: as in terms of your time and your remuneration. 371 00:19:44,760 --> 00:19:47,880 Speaker 3: So, yeah, we did for quite a few years. 372 00:19:47,880 --> 00:19:50,600 Speaker 1: I think from twenty sixteen to twenty nineteen, we did 373 00:19:50,640 --> 00:19:54,800 Speaker 1: have one perk if you like that was unlimited paid 374 00:19:54,960 --> 00:19:58,840 Speaker 1: and you'll leave. We did stop that in early twenty 375 00:19:59,040 --> 00:20:03,840 Speaker 1: twenty for various other reasons. It sort of it worked 376 00:20:04,040 --> 00:20:06,840 Speaker 1: until it didn't, or it served its purpose until it didn't, 377 00:20:06,880 --> 00:20:09,119 Speaker 1: And then there was a few months where we didn't 378 00:20:09,119 --> 00:20:11,920 Speaker 1: do anything, and then we launched the four day week 379 00:20:11,920 --> 00:20:12,760 Speaker 1: a few months after that. 380 00:20:14,000 --> 00:20:17,040 Speaker 2: Was it an all in concept of everyone doing the same. 381 00:20:16,920 --> 00:20:18,000 Speaker 3: Or was it a choice? 382 00:20:18,400 --> 00:20:20,800 Speaker 1: It was absolutely voluntary, and we felt like that was 383 00:20:20,840 --> 00:20:24,000 Speaker 1: a really important decision. And I know so you at 384 00:20:24,040 --> 00:20:26,520 Speaker 1: first didn't opt in to the four day week. Can 385 00:20:26,560 --> 00:20:29,440 Speaker 1: you explain why that was and why you later did. 386 00:20:30,480 --> 00:20:34,240 Speaker 2: Yeah, So initially I thought or felt like the four 387 00:20:34,280 --> 00:20:37,840 Speaker 2: day week potentially could impact the flexibility that I already 388 00:20:37,920 --> 00:20:40,760 Speaker 2: enjoyed the inventum offered across the other days of the week. 389 00:20:41,240 --> 00:20:44,200 Speaker 2: So I still wanted to do school pickups on Wednesdays, 390 00:20:44,760 --> 00:20:47,840 Speaker 2: you know, or take up school volunteering opportunities that might 391 00:20:47,880 --> 00:20:50,119 Speaker 2: be at other times throughout the week, and so I 392 00:20:50,160 --> 00:20:51,800 Speaker 2: was concerned that I wouldn't be able to do that 393 00:20:51,840 --> 00:20:54,399 Speaker 2: as well as have gift of the fifth. So I 394 00:20:54,520 --> 00:20:57,840 Speaker 2: actually didn't do the initial trial, but I observed from 395 00:20:57,880 --> 00:21:00,000 Speaker 2: the sidelines, and I think during the trial I did 396 00:21:00,160 --> 00:21:03,360 Speaker 2: see that flexibility of across the week really wasn't compromised 397 00:21:03,400 --> 00:21:06,399 Speaker 2: and it was kind of still there. And I think 398 00:21:06,440 --> 00:21:08,760 Speaker 2: that it was this shift into you know, in the 399 00:21:08,760 --> 00:21:11,600 Speaker 2: focus with on output not hours, and that really that 400 00:21:11,680 --> 00:21:14,159 Speaker 2: mindset kind of carried on regardless of the day of 401 00:21:14,160 --> 00:21:17,080 Speaker 2: the week. So yeah, I just felt like there was 402 00:21:17,119 --> 00:21:19,560 Speaker 2: trust and personal responsibility given to the team and you 403 00:21:19,560 --> 00:21:21,760 Speaker 2: could still have that flexibility and as long as you 404 00:21:21,840 --> 00:21:23,240 Speaker 2: had everything done by the end of the week, you 405 00:21:23,280 --> 00:21:24,920 Speaker 2: were still able to take that gift of the fifth. 406 00:21:25,000 --> 00:21:30,080 Speaker 2: So I opted in after six months observing the trial. Yeah, 407 00:21:30,080 --> 00:21:32,320 Speaker 2: because I do think it's a mindset shift, as I say, 408 00:21:32,400 --> 00:21:35,159 Speaker 2: focusing on output rather than hours, and it's not just 409 00:21:35,400 --> 00:21:39,200 Speaker 2: it's not just delivered in one day. All right. So 410 00:21:39,320 --> 00:21:42,919 Speaker 2: let's move into some financials related questions and also in 411 00:21:42,960 --> 00:21:45,920 Speaker 2: terms of how we measure the impact. So first question 412 00:21:46,119 --> 00:21:49,280 Speaker 2: is how did you measure effectiveness of four to five 413 00:21:49,320 --> 00:21:51,399 Speaker 2: from both the people and performance perspective. 414 00:21:52,080 --> 00:21:55,080 Speaker 1: Yeah, this is so important, like you really need to 415 00:21:55,119 --> 00:21:59,600 Speaker 1: treat this as an experiment, have hypotheses, do pre and 416 00:21:59,720 --> 00:22:03,440 Speaker 1: pose measures and probably during measures, some things were measuring 417 00:22:03,520 --> 00:22:06,399 Speaker 1: every single week, some things were measuring monthly. Some things 418 00:22:06,400 --> 00:22:09,240 Speaker 1: we measured at the start and then six months later. 419 00:22:09,320 --> 00:22:14,240 Speaker 1: So we measured productivity, engagement, stress levels, job satisfaction, likelihood 420 00:22:14,240 --> 00:22:19,400 Speaker 1: to leave staff, turnover, customer satisfaction, financials. 421 00:22:19,440 --> 00:22:20,480 Speaker 3: I think there are a couple. 422 00:22:20,320 --> 00:22:23,080 Speaker 1: Of other things that we measured, but we we measured 423 00:22:23,520 --> 00:22:27,760 Speaker 1: a lot of themes, and that is super important to 424 00:22:27,840 --> 00:22:31,560 Speaker 1: actually show like is it working or not? 425 00:22:32,520 --> 00:22:35,440 Speaker 2: Yeah, absolutely, all right, And I think we talked about 426 00:22:35,440 --> 00:22:37,560 Speaker 2: this a bit earlier. But when we're not counting widgets 427 00:22:37,560 --> 00:22:39,800 Speaker 2: and when it's not a very obvious kind of tangible 428 00:22:39,840 --> 00:22:42,680 Speaker 2: output that we're producing, how do you measure that outcomes 429 00:22:42,680 --> 00:22:44,320 Speaker 2: and productivity is being maintained. 430 00:22:45,160 --> 00:22:47,439 Speaker 1: So there are a couple of ways that we measured it. Firstly, 431 00:22:47,520 --> 00:22:51,880 Speaker 1: we developed a self report scale. It's a five item 432 00:22:52,080 --> 00:22:55,399 Speaker 1: scale that people completely in a survey. We developed that 433 00:22:55,760 --> 00:22:59,600 Speaker 1: unsw and we found that it's a really good proxy 434 00:22:59,640 --> 00:23:03,560 Speaker 1: for at productivity given like we don't keep timesheets or 435 00:23:03,600 --> 00:23:07,440 Speaker 1: anything like that, and inventium and uh. 436 00:23:07,440 --> 00:23:07,879 Speaker 3: You know that. 437 00:23:07,960 --> 00:23:10,880 Speaker 1: Yeah, it's a little bit trickier, but also we look 438 00:23:10,880 --> 00:23:15,880 Speaker 1: at our OKRs, and that's how we know if productivity 439 00:23:15,920 --> 00:23:16,640 Speaker 1: is being maintained. 440 00:23:16,680 --> 00:23:19,280 Speaker 3: If people are meeting their okayrs at the. 441 00:23:19,240 --> 00:23:22,320 Speaker 2: End of the day and some of the questions or 442 00:23:22,480 --> 00:23:25,200 Speaker 2: in the chatbox relate you. Doesn't work for people who 443 00:23:25,240 --> 00:23:31,200 Speaker 2: are on a paper hour type situation versus salaried employees, Yeah, 444 00:23:31,200 --> 00:23:32,080 Speaker 2: it absolutely does. 445 00:23:32,920 --> 00:23:36,679 Speaker 1: It does mean that that there's going to be different 446 00:23:36,720 --> 00:23:38,080 Speaker 1: costs involved. 447 00:23:37,600 --> 00:23:41,159 Speaker 3: Because if you're you know, like if. 448 00:23:41,320 --> 00:23:46,480 Speaker 1: You're paying someone for five days, nine to five every week, 449 00:23:46,560 --> 00:23:48,480 Speaker 1: and they're the shifts that they're working, and then you 450 00:23:48,800 --> 00:23:51,560 Speaker 1: reduce that but still pay them for that extra day, 451 00:23:52,080 --> 00:23:55,760 Speaker 1: you're presumably going to have to roster someone on on 452 00:23:55,920 --> 00:23:59,800 Speaker 1: that fifth day. I mean, like depending on your industry, 453 00:23:59,840 --> 00:24:02,240 Speaker 1: I would imagine like if your retail or hospitality, that's 454 00:24:02,240 --> 00:24:03,879 Speaker 1: probably going to be important. 455 00:24:03,920 --> 00:24:07,199 Speaker 3: So your costs will go up. But theoretically, all the 456 00:24:07,280 --> 00:24:12,520 Speaker 3: other benefits that you get, which we'll talk about in 457 00:24:12,560 --> 00:24:15,480 Speaker 3: fact we might even sort of segue into that now 458 00:24:16,920 --> 00:24:18,880 Speaker 3: should more than make up for it. 459 00:24:19,440 --> 00:24:21,359 Speaker 1: You know, certainly the four day week has been implemented 460 00:24:21,400 --> 00:24:25,399 Speaker 1: I think across every single industry, and I don't know 461 00:24:25,440 --> 00:24:29,320 Speaker 1: of any company that has decided to abandon the four 462 00:24:29,359 --> 00:24:32,639 Speaker 1: day week once they've started it, So you know, like 463 00:24:33,200 --> 00:24:36,639 Speaker 1: look for other ways where you're getting your financial return. So, 464 00:24:36,720 --> 00:24:41,000 Speaker 1: for example, if you're paying a staff member for five 465 00:24:41,080 --> 00:24:44,360 Speaker 1: shifts but they're only working for I would say they're 466 00:24:44,359 --> 00:24:47,439 Speaker 1: probably going to be a lot more engaged and loyal 467 00:24:48,119 --> 00:24:51,000 Speaker 1: and probably offering better customer service because they're going to 468 00:24:51,000 --> 00:24:55,880 Speaker 1: have more energy and more enthusiasm. And also because they'll 469 00:24:55,880 --> 00:24:59,440 Speaker 1: probably be more loyal because that's a pretty special benefit 470 00:24:59,480 --> 00:25:02,600 Speaker 1: that you've give them, they're probably going to stay for longer. 471 00:25:03,119 --> 00:25:06,639 Speaker 1: And I'm sure everyone knows, like how expensive it is 472 00:25:06,680 --> 00:25:10,879 Speaker 1: to replace a staff member, like I, you know, stats 473 00:25:10,920 --> 00:25:12,840 Speaker 1: that I've read a you know, like a year and 474 00:25:12,840 --> 00:25:16,879 Speaker 1: a half time salary for example. You know that obviously 475 00:25:16,880 --> 00:25:19,720 Speaker 1: differs in different jobs, but it's expensive to replace someone. 476 00:25:23,720 --> 00:25:26,000 Speaker 1: Zoe and I will be back in a moment talking 477 00:25:26,000 --> 00:25:28,639 Speaker 1: about how to set employee goals when moving to a 478 00:25:28,680 --> 00:25:31,080 Speaker 1: four day week, how we make them most of our 479 00:25:31,080 --> 00:25:33,919 Speaker 1: fridays when we take the gift of the fifth and 480 00:25:34,040 --> 00:25:37,479 Speaker 1: also come the four day week actually work for larger 481 00:25:37,600 --> 00:25:41,600 Speaker 1: organizations or is it best for smaller companies like Inventium 482 00:25:42,359 --> 00:25:44,840 Speaker 1: If you're looking for more tips to improve the way 483 00:25:44,880 --> 00:25:48,399 Speaker 1: that you work. I write a short fortnightly newsletter that 484 00:25:48,440 --> 00:25:51,280 Speaker 1: contains three cool things that I've discovered that helped me 485 00:25:51,400 --> 00:25:55,480 Speaker 1: work better, ranging from software and gadgets that I'm loving 486 00:25:55,560 --> 00:25:58,600 Speaker 1: through the interesting research findings. You can sign up for 487 00:25:58,640 --> 00:26:01,399 Speaker 1: that at how I Work dot code. That's how I 488 00:26:01,560 --> 00:26:02,240 Speaker 1: Work dot co. 489 00:26:04,040 --> 00:26:06,480 Speaker 2: And there are a few questions here around billable hours 490 00:26:06,480 --> 00:26:10,600 Speaker 2: because a lot of organizations obviously have billable hours and 491 00:26:10,600 --> 00:26:13,360 Speaker 2: they work in businesses where they sell people's time. So 492 00:26:13,400 --> 00:26:15,119 Speaker 2: how does that then work? 493 00:26:16,000 --> 00:26:19,520 Speaker 1: Yeah, Like, I actually think that this is potentially an 494 00:26:19,560 --> 00:26:22,920 Speaker 1: issue with the business model. I think it's really it's 495 00:26:22,920 --> 00:26:27,320 Speaker 1: a very challenging model to achieve significant growth if you 496 00:26:27,359 --> 00:26:31,840 Speaker 1: are purely just selling your time wherever possible, try to 497 00:26:31,880 --> 00:26:36,320 Speaker 1: sell value as opposed to time. But you know that, 498 00:26:36,440 --> 00:26:40,639 Speaker 1: notwithstanding what I said before, still adds up in that 499 00:26:40,800 --> 00:26:43,040 Speaker 1: you know you're probably going to get much better customer service, 500 00:26:43,359 --> 00:26:45,879 Speaker 1: much better loyalty, you know, if you are in a 501 00:26:45,880 --> 00:26:48,240 Speaker 1: business model where you don't feel like there's any choice 502 00:26:48,280 --> 00:26:52,400 Speaker 1: but to sell your time and not innovate your business model. 503 00:26:53,720 --> 00:26:56,600 Speaker 2: Yeah, and now to the financial payoffs or financial outcomes, 504 00:26:56,600 --> 00:26:58,920 Speaker 2: there's a question for us, what has been a financial 505 00:26:59,200 --> 00:27:01,679 Speaker 2: outcome for the four day week for us. And have 506 00:27:01,760 --> 00:27:03,720 Speaker 2: we increased or decreased turnover? 507 00:27:05,040 --> 00:27:08,120 Speaker 1: Yeah, so it's been massive, and I actually I didn't 508 00:27:08,119 --> 00:27:11,160 Speaker 1: realize how massive it had been until I was preparing 509 00:27:11,200 --> 00:27:16,399 Speaker 1: for this. So comparing revenue from f WAX twenty to 510 00:27:17,119 --> 00:27:20,920 Speaker 1: what we hit last financial year and what will probably 511 00:27:21,200 --> 00:27:24,400 Speaker 1: hit this financial year, revenue is up by about eighty percent, 512 00:27:25,840 --> 00:27:28,720 Speaker 1: which is quite mind boggling given that we are working 513 00:27:29,640 --> 00:27:33,120 Speaker 1: about fifty days less each per year. 514 00:27:34,119 --> 00:27:40,639 Speaker 2: Yeah. Absolutely, having measured that productivity has not declined or 515 00:27:40,680 --> 00:27:41,480 Speaker 2: how have you measured? 516 00:27:41,480 --> 00:27:41,760 Speaker 3: Sorry? 517 00:27:41,840 --> 00:27:45,480 Speaker 1: Yeah, so, as I said, like, we do have a 518 00:27:45,480 --> 00:27:48,679 Speaker 1: self report scale that we've used and a lot. 519 00:27:48,520 --> 00:27:49,920 Speaker 3: Of our clients use that as well. 520 00:27:50,160 --> 00:27:51,600 Speaker 1: But I mean, at the end of the day, it's 521 00:27:51,640 --> 00:27:54,639 Speaker 1: just it's evident in the financials of your business and 522 00:27:54,680 --> 00:27:58,560 Speaker 1: it also in terms of employee and customer satisfaction engagement 523 00:27:58,960 --> 00:27:59,760 Speaker 1: type metrics. 524 00:28:00,440 --> 00:28:03,280 Speaker 3: If those things are not declining. 525 00:28:02,840 --> 00:28:06,520 Speaker 1: And indeed if they're improving, then things probably going pretty well. 526 00:28:08,280 --> 00:28:10,320 Speaker 2: Yeah. Cool, And this, I feel like is a related 527 00:28:10,400 --> 00:28:13,200 Speaker 2: question from Andrew. How you avoid people changing the bar 528 00:28:13,320 --> 00:28:15,600 Speaker 2: for their okayrs when going from five days to four 529 00:28:15,680 --> 00:28:17,440 Speaker 2: I setting easier goals? 530 00:28:19,320 --> 00:28:25,040 Speaker 1: Well, at Invantium, miss our CEO works with everyone on 531 00:28:25,840 --> 00:28:28,600 Speaker 1: kind of calibrating that. Like people are responsible for setting 532 00:28:28,640 --> 00:28:31,480 Speaker 1: their own okayrs, but but they'll. 533 00:28:31,040 --> 00:28:32,359 Speaker 3: Do a sense check with Mission. 534 00:28:32,400 --> 00:28:35,879 Speaker 1: Often it's kind of it's a it's a what's the 535 00:28:35,880 --> 00:28:38,680 Speaker 1: word I'm looking for. It's it's like a process where 536 00:28:38,680 --> 00:28:41,080 Speaker 1: there'll be like a few rounds of working on your 537 00:28:41,120 --> 00:28:43,280 Speaker 1: OKRs to get them where they need to be. But 538 00:28:43,320 --> 00:28:46,560 Speaker 1: also miss does review them every quarter to check that 539 00:28:46,600 --> 00:28:53,240 Speaker 1: they're challenging enough or conversely not overly challenging and taxing. 540 00:28:53,680 --> 00:28:55,640 Speaker 1: So there's kind of like I would say, there's an 541 00:28:55,760 --> 00:28:56,760 Speaker 1: art and a science to that. 542 00:28:58,440 --> 00:29:01,480 Speaker 2: Yeah, absolutely, I certainly didn't is a difference in terms 543 00:29:01,480 --> 00:29:05,720 Speaker 2: of the stretch nature of my OKRs moving from five 544 00:29:05,800 --> 00:29:10,840 Speaker 2: to four days. I think they still remained pretty similar 545 00:29:11,040 --> 00:29:15,160 Speaker 2: in terms of their challenge. It's just that, you know, 546 00:29:16,280 --> 00:29:18,880 Speaker 2: given the training we went through, we're able to achieve 547 00:29:18,920 --> 00:29:22,680 Speaker 2: them in less time. All Right, I've got my general 548 00:29:22,760 --> 00:29:25,080 Speaker 2: questions now, and then I'll move over to any kind 549 00:29:25,080 --> 00:29:27,240 Speaker 2: of outstanding questions they're in the chat box. So what 550 00:29:27,360 --> 00:29:30,000 Speaker 2: was the biggest challenge in moving to a four day week? 551 00:29:31,160 --> 00:29:35,000 Speaker 1: I would say for me, and this is like more 552 00:29:35,080 --> 00:29:37,800 Speaker 1: from the point of view of the leader in the 553 00:29:37,840 --> 00:29:40,600 Speaker 1: business as opposed to someone that is trying to fit 554 00:29:40,720 --> 00:29:42,320 Speaker 1: five days into four days? 555 00:29:43,520 --> 00:29:47,840 Speaker 3: Is that like just trying to. 556 00:29:48,120 --> 00:29:49,600 Speaker 1: Like I mean, when you have any kind of a 557 00:29:49,640 --> 00:29:53,160 Speaker 1: policy in place for a long period of time, it's 558 00:29:53,200 --> 00:29:56,600 Speaker 1: easy for it to just become like the furniture. So 559 00:29:57,360 --> 00:30:01,080 Speaker 1: having gift of the fifth continued to genuinely feel like 560 00:30:01,120 --> 00:30:04,880 Speaker 1: a gift and not like it's your right to have 561 00:30:05,000 --> 00:30:05,760 Speaker 1: Friday off. 562 00:30:05,880 --> 00:30:07,880 Speaker 3: I'd say, is the thing that. 563 00:30:08,000 --> 00:30:11,800 Speaker 1: Is that is in the back of my mind and 564 00:30:12,400 --> 00:30:15,000 Speaker 1: that I you know, that is like a challenging thing 565 00:30:15,000 --> 00:30:17,320 Speaker 1: I would say for businesses to get right, particularly like 566 00:30:17,440 --> 00:30:18,480 Speaker 1: three years into it. 567 00:30:19,520 --> 00:30:20,000 Speaker 3: What about you? 568 00:30:20,080 --> 00:30:25,080 Speaker 2: Yeah, definitely I reckon For me, I think because time 569 00:30:25,160 --> 00:30:28,080 Speaker 2: is such a precious resource now so we can all 570 00:30:28,280 --> 00:30:31,080 Speaker 2: get our gift of the fifth. I think I'm really 571 00:30:31,160 --> 00:30:35,000 Speaker 2: mindful of my impact on other team members time. So 572 00:30:35,080 --> 00:30:37,000 Speaker 2: whereas I might have just said, hey, can you come 573 00:30:37,000 --> 00:30:38,760 Speaker 2: along to this, or hey do you mind sharing this, 574 00:30:38,880 --> 00:30:40,480 Speaker 2: or you know, and I'd be kind of flippant in 575 00:30:40,520 --> 00:30:43,800 Speaker 2: my requests of the team, perhaps a little bit too flippant, 576 00:30:43,800 --> 00:30:48,760 Speaker 2: Whereas now I'm really mindful of any request or any 577 00:30:48,960 --> 00:30:52,400 Speaker 2: I guess pressure that I place on other team members 578 00:30:52,520 --> 00:30:55,880 Speaker 2: time and really question do I need it? Where can 579 00:30:55,920 --> 00:30:58,200 Speaker 2: I find that information? So I think it's made me 580 00:30:58,240 --> 00:31:02,240 Speaker 2: aim more resourceful, but be just more mindful of what 581 00:31:02,440 --> 00:31:05,440 Speaker 2: the impact I'm having on other people's time, because you know, 582 00:31:06,240 --> 00:31:08,440 Speaker 2: you need to make sure that you're getting the fifth 583 00:31:08,440 --> 00:31:10,440 Speaker 2: and fifth, but the other team members are getting gifted 584 00:31:10,480 --> 00:31:12,320 Speaker 2: the fifth as well, and that's not impacted by you. 585 00:31:12,560 --> 00:31:12,880 Speaker 3: I think. 586 00:31:12,920 --> 00:31:15,920 Speaker 2: Also just making the most of my Friday time as. 587 00:31:15,800 --> 00:31:18,120 Speaker 3: Well, I can totally relate to that. 588 00:31:18,160 --> 00:31:21,360 Speaker 1: Actually, like something I reckon I used to do probably 589 00:31:21,360 --> 00:31:22,960 Speaker 1: several years ago. I don't think I've done it all 590 00:31:22,960 --> 00:31:27,120 Speaker 1: that much lately, is like i'd be quite thought less 591 00:31:27,280 --> 00:31:31,760 Speaker 1: I think with say resources that I shared or articles 592 00:31:31,840 --> 00:31:33,880 Speaker 1: i'd shared, because I think like if I share something, 593 00:31:33,880 --> 00:31:35,600 Speaker 1: people feel pressure to read it. 594 00:31:35,680 --> 00:31:37,600 Speaker 3: So now I really. 595 00:31:37,280 --> 00:31:42,360 Speaker 1: Think twice about what time I'm asking from other people. 596 00:31:43,320 --> 00:31:44,760 Speaker 3: So I totally relate to that. 597 00:31:45,600 --> 00:31:47,920 Speaker 2: And I also think I was thought less in how 598 00:31:48,000 --> 00:31:50,120 Speaker 2: I spent my gift of the fifth, whereas now I 599 00:31:50,200 --> 00:31:52,880 Speaker 2: try to be really intentional so that I can make 600 00:31:52,920 --> 00:31:54,200 Speaker 2: the most of that time. 601 00:31:54,280 --> 00:31:54,960 Speaker 3: I don't want to. 602 00:31:54,880 --> 00:31:56,680 Speaker 2: Get to Friday and go, oh what am I doing 603 00:31:56,720 --> 00:31:59,000 Speaker 2: with my day. I want to make sure it's like 604 00:31:59,360 --> 00:32:04,520 Speaker 2: plan and meaningful and gives to me and feed my 605 00:32:04,600 --> 00:32:07,840 Speaker 2: soul in some way, so you know, I feel restored 606 00:32:07,920 --> 00:32:09,960 Speaker 2: and that actually serves its purpose. So I try to 607 00:32:09,960 --> 00:32:12,840 Speaker 2: always plan my fridays. I know that's a good challenge 608 00:32:12,840 --> 00:32:14,760 Speaker 2: to have, but it is still a challenge to make 609 00:32:14,800 --> 00:32:17,960 Speaker 2: sure it just doesn't go to waste. Would you have 610 00:32:18,000 --> 00:32:21,680 Speaker 2: done anything different in your initial implementation approach? 611 00:32:22,880 --> 00:32:28,120 Speaker 1: I don't think we would have. So what we did 612 00:32:28,200 --> 00:32:33,040 Speaker 1: do again, we were very thorough about this. So as 613 00:32:33,120 --> 00:32:38,000 Speaker 1: I said before, we treated it as an experiment. And 614 00:32:38,800 --> 00:32:40,280 Speaker 1: one of the things we do in terms of the 615 00:32:40,280 --> 00:32:42,720 Speaker 1: innovation consulting work that we do is that we train 616 00:32:42,840 --> 00:32:47,440 Speaker 1: companies and teams how to run experiments to de risk ideas, 617 00:32:47,600 --> 00:32:51,400 Speaker 1: and so we're good at running experiments. We know how 618 00:32:51,400 --> 00:32:54,000 Speaker 1: to run them. So we did a lot of work 619 00:32:54,000 --> 00:32:57,520 Speaker 1: around that. We set very clear hypotheses, we set very 620 00:32:57,520 --> 00:32:59,840 Speaker 1: clear metrics. We thought about how were we going to 621 00:32:59,840 --> 00:33:03,400 Speaker 1: meet all the variables that we wanted to measure. What 622 00:33:03,680 --> 00:33:07,480 Speaker 1: was our benchmark for going Yes, this hypothesis has been supported, 623 00:33:07,520 --> 00:33:08,120 Speaker 1: so we did that. 624 00:33:08,680 --> 00:33:11,000 Speaker 3: We also ran a pre mortem and. 625 00:33:10,960 --> 00:33:14,280 Speaker 1: This is something that Shah from our team who some 626 00:33:14,320 --> 00:33:18,240 Speaker 1: of you might know, ran for us, where we basically 627 00:33:18,560 --> 00:33:20,960 Speaker 1: had to imagine that we launched the four day week, 628 00:33:21,120 --> 00:33:23,479 Speaker 1: it was one year on and it had been a 629 00:33:23,560 --> 00:33:25,760 Speaker 1: dismal failure, and we had to think. 630 00:33:25,560 --> 00:33:27,120 Speaker 3: About why was that so? 631 00:33:27,400 --> 00:33:32,120 Speaker 1: And this allowed us to anticipate where things could go wrong, 632 00:33:32,280 --> 00:33:34,920 Speaker 1: so that in setting things up and making key decisions 633 00:33:35,000 --> 00:33:36,760 Speaker 1: like do we you know, all take the same day off, 634 00:33:36,800 --> 00:33:41,480 Speaker 1: for example, we could actually de risk a lot of 635 00:33:41,560 --> 00:33:45,240 Speaker 1: things and make better decisions. And then finally we did 636 00:33:45,240 --> 00:33:48,880 Speaker 1: double down on productivity training and I feel like those 637 00:33:49,000 --> 00:33:52,120 Speaker 1: those three things set us up really well. The experiment 638 00:33:52,320 --> 00:33:55,320 Speaker 1: was obviously a huge success, which is why we've been 639 00:33:55,320 --> 00:33:57,480 Speaker 1: doing it now for three years. 640 00:33:58,080 --> 00:33:59,960 Speaker 2: Yeah, all right. I love this next question because I 641 00:34:00,240 --> 00:34:02,560 Speaker 2: often get challenged with this when I'm talking about the 642 00:34:02,600 --> 00:34:04,680 Speaker 2: four day week and people say, oh, but it's easy 643 00:34:04,720 --> 00:34:06,600 Speaker 2: for you guys because you only have ten or eleven 644 00:34:06,680 --> 00:34:08,680 Speaker 2: people that work for invent GM. We've got where are 645 00:34:08,760 --> 00:34:11,040 Speaker 2: much larger organization, So it would have worked for us. 646 00:34:11,360 --> 00:34:13,680 Speaker 2: So this question is, how would you have approached inventing 647 00:34:13,719 --> 00:34:17,040 Speaker 2: and shift if the company were larger? Would it still work? 648 00:34:18,360 --> 00:34:19,120 Speaker 3: One hundred percent? 649 00:34:19,160 --> 00:34:21,040 Speaker 1: It would have, And I can say that we've confidenced 650 00:34:21,080 --> 00:34:24,040 Speaker 1: because we have been brought in to help a lot 651 00:34:24,080 --> 00:34:28,359 Speaker 1: of companies that do the four day week. Probably Unilever 652 00:34:28,960 --> 00:34:31,680 Speaker 1: is one of the biggest companies that we've helped. So 653 00:34:31,960 --> 00:34:35,520 Speaker 1: we helped their entire New Zealand offers move to the 654 00:34:35,520 --> 00:34:40,000 Speaker 1: four day week through providing productivity training. That training is 655 00:34:40,040 --> 00:34:44,840 Speaker 1: now being rolled out to all of their Australian business. 656 00:34:45,520 --> 00:34:49,359 Speaker 1: They're now taking that model to Australia, which is very 657 00:34:49,480 --> 00:34:54,880 Speaker 1: very exciting and so, yeah, we've taught people how to 658 00:34:54,920 --> 00:34:55,640 Speaker 1: work differently. 659 00:34:56,280 --> 00:35:01,960 Speaker 3: That's just one example involving several hundred people. Yeah. Absolutely. 660 00:35:02,080 --> 00:35:03,480 Speaker 3: I think it does mean though that. 661 00:35:03,480 --> 00:35:08,839 Speaker 1: You really need to be very mindful in how you 662 00:35:08,840 --> 00:35:11,520 Speaker 1: set it up for success and doing things like treating 663 00:35:11,560 --> 00:35:14,440 Speaker 1: it as an experiment, thinking about the hypothesis, setting metrics, 664 00:35:14,480 --> 00:35:18,800 Speaker 1: measuring the right things, running a pre mortem, doing productivity training. 665 00:35:18,840 --> 00:35:22,120 Speaker 1: People don't just change their behavior overnight because they're suddenly 666 00:35:22,680 --> 00:35:24,959 Speaker 1: meant to work one day less cool. 667 00:35:25,000 --> 00:35:27,000 Speaker 2: I'm going to sort of merge two questions because they're 668 00:35:27,040 --> 00:35:29,720 Speaker 2: both around leadership and leadership buy in. So the first 669 00:35:29,760 --> 00:35:33,040 Speaker 2: one is is it possible success successfully shift to a 670 00:35:33,120 --> 00:35:36,080 Speaker 2: four day week with a grassroots roots approach or do 671 00:35:36,120 --> 00:35:39,640 Speaker 2: you need leadership buy in? And if you do need 672 00:35:39,760 --> 00:35:42,680 Speaker 2: leadership buy in, how do you go about getting it? 673 00:35:43,560 --> 00:35:47,960 Speaker 3: You absolutely need leadership buy in? Would you agree with that? 674 00:35:48,080 --> 00:35:48,160 Speaker 1: So? 675 00:35:50,280 --> 00:35:54,920 Speaker 2: Yes, I mean my reason is, I honestly think that 676 00:35:55,280 --> 00:35:58,040 Speaker 2: a leaders have to sell this, they have to advocate this, 677 00:35:58,160 --> 00:36:00,839 Speaker 2: they have to truly belie the benefits that it can 678 00:36:00,880 --> 00:36:02,560 Speaker 2: bring to their business. But they also have to roll 679 00:36:02,640 --> 00:36:04,920 Speaker 2: model the behaviors that then sets the tone for everyone 680 00:36:04,920 --> 00:36:07,359 Speaker 2: else to follow. So I think you set and mish 681 00:36:07,440 --> 00:36:10,160 Speaker 2: that a really good tone when you kind of role 682 00:36:10,200 --> 00:36:11,960 Speaker 2: modeled it, and from the outset you're like, right, well 683 00:36:11,960 --> 00:36:14,600 Speaker 2: I'm taking Fridays and I'm like, okay, we're on They 684 00:36:14,600 --> 00:36:17,480 Speaker 2: were doing this, and you know, you really stuck to it. 685 00:36:17,520 --> 00:36:19,480 Speaker 2: You didn't work on Fridays, I think initially because you 686 00:36:19,480 --> 00:36:21,160 Speaker 2: wanted to set a pre incident that this was a 687 00:36:21,160 --> 00:36:23,720 Speaker 2: gift and you were taking it. So, yeah, one hundred 688 00:36:23,719 --> 00:36:27,279 Speaker 2: percent was really important part of the process. Yeah. 689 00:36:27,280 --> 00:36:29,080 Speaker 1: So look in terms of how then you get buying 690 00:36:29,120 --> 00:36:31,640 Speaker 1: from a leadership team, I mean, certainly there's lots of 691 00:36:31,719 --> 00:36:34,440 Speaker 1: data from all the pilots that have been run around the. 692 00:36:34,400 --> 00:36:37,440 Speaker 3: World that you can draw on. But also I think. 693 00:36:37,280 --> 00:36:42,400 Speaker 1: Really importantly, frame it as an experiment. Experiments feel so 694 00:36:42,480 --> 00:36:45,000 Speaker 1: much safer because if the experiment fails, and it might 695 00:36:45,000 --> 00:36:48,120 Speaker 1: be an eight week experiment like Andrew Barnes originally did, 696 00:36:48,440 --> 00:36:50,640 Speaker 1: it might be a six month experiment like we around 697 00:36:50,640 --> 00:36:52,800 Speaker 1: an inventium, or it might be somewhere in between. 698 00:36:53,680 --> 00:36:56,120 Speaker 3: I think Unilever's experiment Lenks was a. 699 00:36:56,160 --> 00:37:02,160 Speaker 1: Year from memory. So frame it as an experiment. This 700 00:37:02,320 --> 00:37:04,279 Speaker 1: is a good one actually, because we did chat about this. 701 00:37:04,400 --> 00:37:06,960 Speaker 2: So did you let your clients know of the change 702 00:37:07,000 --> 00:37:09,880 Speaker 2: and update in email signature that Fridays are off or 703 00:37:09,920 --> 00:37:11,800 Speaker 2: set an out of office for instance? 704 00:37:13,960 --> 00:37:18,080 Speaker 3: So we did. We didn't have a streamlined approach. 705 00:37:18,320 --> 00:37:21,720 Speaker 1: Some people do set an out of office on their email, 706 00:37:22,040 --> 00:37:25,040 Speaker 1: which is great, other people do not. We did talk 707 00:37:25,080 --> 00:37:26,880 Speaker 1: about that as a team. We talked about that actually 708 00:37:26,960 --> 00:37:30,960 Speaker 1: quite recently. Again because we don't have a consistent approach, 709 00:37:31,160 --> 00:37:34,239 Speaker 1: and again we've just decided it's just whatever you feel like. 710 00:37:34,440 --> 00:37:36,440 Speaker 3: We give people autonomy over that decision. 711 00:37:36,640 --> 00:37:37,880 Speaker 1: If you do want to put on your out of 712 00:37:37,880 --> 00:37:41,480 Speaker 1: office so you know, if that kind of alleviates guilty 713 00:37:41,520 --> 00:37:44,239 Speaker 1: feeling like you need to be checking your email, then 714 00:37:44,280 --> 00:37:44,880 Speaker 1: go for it. 715 00:37:45,719 --> 00:37:46,840 Speaker 3: Other people do not. 716 00:37:47,320 --> 00:37:49,640 Speaker 1: I personally do not, and I'll explain that I did 717 00:37:49,719 --> 00:37:52,040 Speaker 1: used to have an out of office on every day 718 00:37:52,160 --> 00:37:55,120 Speaker 1: to explain that I am generally deep working in the morning, 719 00:37:55,160 --> 00:37:56,040 Speaker 1: so therefore I'm out. 720 00:37:55,880 --> 00:37:56,600 Speaker 3: Of my inbox. 721 00:37:57,520 --> 00:38:01,919 Speaker 1: But after I've had cal Newport, who wrote Deep Work 722 00:38:01,920 --> 00:38:04,759 Speaker 1: and a few other books, on my podcast How I 723 00:38:04,800 --> 00:38:08,840 Speaker 1: Work a couple of times now and after his latest book, 724 00:38:09,239 --> 00:38:12,160 Speaker 1: A World Without Email, he's not a fan of the 725 00:38:12,239 --> 00:38:15,840 Speaker 1: out of office auto responder because it is simply just 726 00:38:15,920 --> 00:38:20,160 Speaker 1: putting more email pollution into the world. Like, so long 727 00:38:20,200 --> 00:38:23,799 Speaker 1: as you are a reliable individual, people know that you 728 00:38:23,840 --> 00:38:26,319 Speaker 1: will get back to them in a decent amount of time. 729 00:38:26,440 --> 00:38:28,200 Speaker 1: And so I'm like, yeah, I don't want to do 730 00:38:28,239 --> 00:38:31,280 Speaker 1: more email pollution. So I stopped all my out of offices. 731 00:38:31,320 --> 00:38:33,919 Speaker 1: I only said it if I'm going to be out 732 00:38:33,920 --> 00:38:36,279 Speaker 1: of my inbox for more than two or three days. 733 00:38:36,880 --> 00:38:40,359 Speaker 2: Yeah, I originally did. Well, I never have actually never 734 00:38:40,360 --> 00:38:42,680 Speaker 2: put an out of office on, And originally I didn't 735 00:38:42,719 --> 00:38:45,120 Speaker 2: want to draw attention to the fact that I was 736 00:38:45,200 --> 00:38:48,359 Speaker 2: not working on a Friday, and I felt, I don't know, 737 00:38:48,440 --> 00:38:51,920 Speaker 2: maybe there was some underlying guilt. But actually we did 738 00:38:51,960 --> 00:38:54,319 Speaker 2: a bit of a reframe and a reset as a 739 00:38:54,360 --> 00:38:57,719 Speaker 2: team and kind of really clarified what's ound mindset and 740 00:38:57,719 --> 00:38:59,920 Speaker 2: what about general principles around it, And one of them 741 00:38:59,960 --> 00:39:02,840 Speaker 2: is we're proud of Gifted the Fifth and happy to 742 00:39:02,880 --> 00:39:05,319 Speaker 2: communicate it to clients partners in the media. And I 743 00:39:05,360 --> 00:39:08,040 Speaker 2: was like, Okay, I'm going to reframe. It actually should 744 00:39:08,080 --> 00:39:11,200 Speaker 2: be something and is something we are really proud of, 745 00:39:11,680 --> 00:39:14,439 Speaker 2: and I shouldn't feel guilty communicating that to clients because 746 00:39:14,480 --> 00:39:17,680 Speaker 2: ultimately clients do benefit from us taking Gift of the Fifth. 747 00:39:17,760 --> 00:39:19,759 Speaker 2: So I've done a bit of a reset and a 748 00:39:19,800 --> 00:39:23,760 Speaker 2: reframe in terms of my willingness to communicate it to clients, 749 00:39:23,800 --> 00:39:25,640 Speaker 2: because I do think we are paving the way and 750 00:39:25,680 --> 00:39:27,800 Speaker 2: we are going to be responsible for shifting the mindset 751 00:39:28,160 --> 00:39:31,719 Speaker 2: around this whole movement. So hopefully we can play some 752 00:39:31,800 --> 00:39:34,120 Speaker 2: small role in that does inventing. 753 00:39:34,360 --> 00:39:37,960 Speaker 1: Other organizations who have implemented Gift of the Fifth continue 754 00:39:38,000 --> 00:39:40,520 Speaker 1: to train or revisit productivity training. 755 00:39:40,239 --> 00:39:43,200 Speaker 3: And what happens with new employees. I think that's interesting. 756 00:39:42,760 --> 00:39:47,239 Speaker 1: Because, like often it can take a bit to like 757 00:39:47,280 --> 00:39:50,319 Speaker 1: to create a new habit, and ultimately you're trying to 758 00:39:50,320 --> 00:39:51,760 Speaker 1: create new working norms. 759 00:39:51,760 --> 00:39:53,240 Speaker 3: So I would say with a lot of our. 760 00:39:53,120 --> 00:39:57,480 Speaker 1: Clients, we do do some kind of a refresher, or 761 00:39:57,480 --> 00:39:59,320 Speaker 1: we'll get USD to do a refresher at. 762 00:39:59,120 --> 00:40:00,200 Speaker 3: Some point in time. 763 00:40:00,360 --> 00:40:02,880 Speaker 1: And certainly for the clients that we work with on 764 00:40:02,960 --> 00:40:06,440 Speaker 1: gift of the fifth or four day week around helping 765 00:40:06,480 --> 00:40:10,160 Speaker 1: people learn more productive ways of working, we absolutely would 766 00:40:10,200 --> 00:40:13,440 Speaker 1: train all their new starters, because it does become like 767 00:40:14,200 --> 00:40:17,759 Speaker 1: it's new working norms and new habits that you're ultimately 768 00:40:17,800 --> 00:40:20,640 Speaker 1: trying to build in order for this to be a 769 00:40:20,680 --> 00:40:23,600 Speaker 1: success and not a whole bunch of stress trying to 770 00:40:23,640 --> 00:40:25,320 Speaker 1: cram five days into fours. 771 00:40:25,400 --> 00:40:27,960 Speaker 3: So I would just say, like, you need to see. 772 00:40:27,719 --> 00:40:34,160 Speaker 1: This as forming new patterns and habits and like changing. 773 00:40:33,719 --> 00:40:37,680 Speaker 3: Your work culture in order for this to be successful. 774 00:40:39,080 --> 00:40:42,120 Speaker 1: I hope that you enjoy this chat about the four 775 00:40:42,200 --> 00:40:47,040 Speaker 1: day week, because literally every week I feel like I 776 00:40:47,080 --> 00:40:53,440 Speaker 1: get questions from company owners, CEOs, journalists, all sorts of 777 00:40:53,440 --> 00:40:54,440 Speaker 1: people about how. 778 00:40:54,239 --> 00:40:57,400 Speaker 3: It actually works. And if you're maybe. 779 00:40:57,239 --> 00:41:01,000 Speaker 1: Feeling inspired or empowered to make the full week work 780 00:41:01,000 --> 00:41:02,680 Speaker 1: at your organization. 781 00:41:02,360 --> 00:41:04,160 Speaker 3: I would love to hear from you. 782 00:41:04,520 --> 00:41:07,200 Speaker 1: And also if you need some help, I would love 783 00:41:07,400 --> 00:41:11,760 Speaker 1: to help. You can contact me through my email address 784 00:41:11,760 --> 00:41:15,520 Speaker 1: which is in the show notes, Amantha at inventium dot com. 785 00:41:15,560 --> 00:41:18,120 Speaker 3: Dot Au. Thank you for. 786 00:41:18,120 --> 00:41:20,440 Speaker 1: Sharing part of your day with me by listening to 787 00:41:20,480 --> 00:41:23,319 Speaker 1: How I Work. If you're keen for more tips on 788 00:41:23,360 --> 00:41:27,480 Speaker 1: how to work better, connect with me via LinkedIn or Instagram. 789 00:41:27,560 --> 00:41:31,040 Speaker 1: I'm very easy to find. Just search for Amantha Imba. 790 00:41:32,040 --> 00:41:36,080 Speaker 1: How I Work was recorded on the traditional land of 791 00:41:36,200 --> 00:41:39,799 Speaker 1: the Warrangery people, part of the cool And Nation. I 792 00:41:39,960 --> 00:41:42,680 Speaker 1: am so grateful for being able to work and live 793 00:41:42,800 --> 00:41:45,160 Speaker 1: on this beautiful land and I want to pay my 794 00:41:45,239 --> 00:41:49,879 Speaker 1: respects to elder's past, present and emerging. How I Work 795 00:41:50,000 --> 00:41:53,560 Speaker 1: is produced by Inventium with production support from Dead Set Studios. 796 00:41:53,920 --> 00:41:55,480 Speaker 3: The producer for this episode was 797 00:41:55,520 --> 00:41:58,279 Speaker 1: Liam Riordan, and thank you to Martin Nimba who did 798 00:41:58,280 --> 00:42:00,600 Speaker 1: the audio mix and makes everything so found better than 799 00:42:00,600 --> 00:42:01,960 Speaker 1: it would have otherwise.