1 00:00:00,160 --> 00:00:02,840 Speaker 1: To help me when I'm kind of really working through 2 00:00:02,880 --> 00:00:07,600 Speaker 1: a tough first draft. Is I have a song that 3 00:00:07,680 --> 00:00:10,959 Speaker 1: I play on a loop with headsets and it just 4 00:00:11,000 --> 00:00:14,000 Speaker 1: goes round and around and around. It's the same song. 5 00:00:14,080 --> 00:00:16,760 Speaker 1: And I've picked up that trick from a couple of 6 00:00:16,760 --> 00:00:20,400 Speaker 1: people that you play this thing and it's it's there's 7 00:00:20,440 --> 00:00:24,160 Speaker 1: something weird about it. It's very soothing. I know people 8 00:00:24,160 --> 00:00:27,160 Speaker 1: who work in like cafes and they like that background noise. 9 00:00:27,400 --> 00:00:28,520 Speaker 1: This is something similar. 10 00:00:28,560 --> 00:00:28,960 Speaker 2: I guess. 11 00:00:29,760 --> 00:00:32,520 Speaker 1: It's just the same song on a loop again and again, 12 00:00:32,640 --> 00:00:36,400 Speaker 1: and just hearing it kind of makes me productive. I 13 00:00:36,479 --> 00:00:39,600 Speaker 1: don't know, it makes me kind of like distraction fully 14 00:00:39,600 --> 00:00:43,080 Speaker 1: away and I can really really focus. And so I 15 00:00:43,120 --> 00:00:46,560 Speaker 1: would recommend to people give it a try. Find something 16 00:00:46,600 --> 00:00:50,040 Speaker 1: that you think you wouldn't mind hearing a thousand times, 17 00:00:50,080 --> 00:00:52,640 Speaker 1: and then it's just play it on a loop and 18 00:00:52,720 --> 00:00:55,160 Speaker 1: it it's kind of like a trance, you know. It 19 00:00:55,160 --> 00:00:57,160 Speaker 1: makes it kind of a work trance. I guess. 20 00:01:01,680 --> 00:01:04,160 Speaker 3: Welcome to How I Work, a show about the tactics 21 00:01:04,280 --> 00:01:06,640 Speaker 3: used by the world's most successful people to get so 22 00:01:06,800 --> 00:01:07,880 Speaker 3: much out of their day. 23 00:01:08,520 --> 00:01:10,440 Speaker 4: I'm your host, doctor Amantha. 24 00:01:10,160 --> 00:01:15,520 Speaker 3: I'm an organizational psychologist, the founder of behavioral science consultancy Inventium, 25 00:01:15,640 --> 00:01:19,160 Speaker 3: and I'm obsessed with finding ways to optimize my work date. 26 00:01:19,800 --> 00:01:23,800 Speaker 3: Before we get into today's show, just a reminder if 27 00:01:23,800 --> 00:01:28,479 Speaker 3: you have questions that you would like answered about work, productivity, 28 00:01:28,920 --> 00:01:31,800 Speaker 3: the future of work who knows, I would love you 29 00:01:31,880 --> 00:01:35,520 Speaker 3: to send them through to me. I am dedicating a 30 00:01:35,560 --> 00:01:37,840 Speaker 3: few episodes to answering listener questions. 31 00:01:37,840 --> 00:01:41,080 Speaker 4: I've gotten some really good ones already. 32 00:01:41,319 --> 00:01:44,520 Speaker 3: Some of which I've addressed in some episodes of How 33 00:01:44,680 --> 00:01:47,040 Speaker 3: I Work. So if you have a question you would 34 00:01:47,080 --> 00:01:49,120 Speaker 3: like me to answer, like my view on like me 35 00:01:49,160 --> 00:01:52,280 Speaker 3: to dig into research around, just send it through to 36 00:01:52,640 --> 00:01:57,120 Speaker 3: Amantha at Inventium dot com dot au and my email 37 00:01:57,160 --> 00:02:00,680 Speaker 3: address is always in the show notes as well. Okay, 38 00:02:00,800 --> 00:02:06,920 Speaker 3: let's get onto today's show. My guest is Kevin Kelly. 39 00:02:07,520 --> 00:02:11,280 Speaker 3: Very excited to announce that Kevin is a senior maverick 40 00:02:11,320 --> 00:02:15,280 Speaker 3: at Wired magazine. He co founded Wired back in nineteen 41 00:02:15,360 --> 00:02:18,799 Speaker 3: ninety three and served as its executive editor. 42 00:02:18,800 --> 00:02:20,360 Speaker 4: For the first seven years. 43 00:02:20,919 --> 00:02:23,640 Speaker 3: His most recent book is The Inevitable, which is a 44 00:02:23,760 --> 00:02:26,480 Speaker 3: New York Times and Wall Street Journal bestseller, and he 45 00:02:26,560 --> 00:02:29,760 Speaker 3: co founded the Hackers Conference and also the Quantified Self 46 00:02:29,800 --> 00:02:33,240 Speaker 3: movement of which I am quite the fan, and he 47 00:02:33,360 --> 00:02:37,919 Speaker 3: also writes one of my favorite newsletters, Recommendo. He also 48 00:02:38,000 --> 00:02:41,480 Speaker 3: hosts the Cool Tools podcast and also founded the very 49 00:02:41,520 --> 00:02:44,680 Speaker 3: popular cool Tools website back in two thousand and three, 50 00:02:45,360 --> 00:02:48,519 Speaker 3: in which a new tool is reviewed every single day. 51 00:02:49,280 --> 00:02:51,680 Speaker 3: So I've been trying to get Kevin on the show 52 00:02:51,880 --> 00:02:54,520 Speaker 3: for I want to say, well. 53 00:02:54,280 --> 00:02:57,680 Speaker 4: Over a year, and I was finally able. 54 00:02:57,400 --> 00:03:00,919 Speaker 3: To secure an hour with him, which I was so 55 00:03:01,000 --> 00:03:04,960 Speaker 3: excited about. He's someone that I have admired from AFAR 56 00:03:05,200 --> 00:03:08,520 Speaker 3: for many, many years. I think he's one of the 57 00:03:08,560 --> 00:03:12,560 Speaker 3: best and most interesting thinkers on the planet, and I'm 58 00:03:12,600 --> 00:03:15,120 Speaker 3: so excited to share this interview. I found it fascinating 59 00:03:15,120 --> 00:03:19,440 Speaker 3: to get insight into how he works. And also before 60 00:03:19,440 --> 00:03:22,560 Speaker 3: we hit record, he literally just before he set me 61 00:03:22,600 --> 00:03:25,840 Speaker 3: the challenge to see if I could ask him questions 62 00:03:26,200 --> 00:03:28,320 Speaker 3: that he's never been asked before. 63 00:03:28,880 --> 00:03:30,639 Speaker 4: So no pressure given. 64 00:03:30,760 --> 00:03:35,080 Speaker 3: Kevin has been interviewed by many, many people, probably has 65 00:03:35,120 --> 00:03:38,680 Speaker 3: done thousands of interviews over the course of his long career, 66 00:03:39,160 --> 00:03:41,720 Speaker 3: so I did manage to succeed in. 67 00:03:41,640 --> 00:03:43,720 Speaker 4: That challenge, which I was very excited about. 68 00:03:44,080 --> 00:03:47,080 Speaker 3: And on that note, let's head to Kevin to hear 69 00:03:47,120 --> 00:03:48,520 Speaker 3: about how he works. 70 00:03:49,560 --> 00:03:51,280 Speaker 4: Kevin, Welcome to the show. 71 00:03:52,480 --> 00:03:54,240 Speaker 2: It's my delight to be here at Thank you for 72 00:03:54,240 --> 00:03:54,800 Speaker 2: inviting me. 73 00:03:55,400 --> 00:03:56,760 Speaker 4: Oh, I'm very excited now. 74 00:03:57,000 --> 00:04:02,000 Speaker 3: Something I have subscribed to and read literally every week 75 00:04:02,120 --> 00:04:06,640 Speaker 3: is your newsletter. One of your newsletters Recommendo, and I reckon. 76 00:04:06,800 --> 00:04:09,000 Speaker 3: I mean, there's not many newsletters that I read religiously, 77 00:04:09,320 --> 00:04:13,440 Speaker 3: but there's always so many good recommendations for new tools 78 00:04:13,480 --> 00:04:16,440 Speaker 3: and software and gadgets, and I would love to know 79 00:04:16,760 --> 00:04:19,520 Speaker 3: what are your go to sources for finding all these 80 00:04:19,600 --> 00:04:21,159 Speaker 3: new tools and strategies. 81 00:04:22,320 --> 00:04:26,880 Speaker 1: I waste way too much time surfing the net in 82 00:04:27,000 --> 00:04:34,560 Speaker 1: the web. That's that's the sad, sad truth there. For listeners. 83 00:04:34,720 --> 00:04:39,599 Speaker 1: This is called Recommendo, and every week we send a 84 00:04:39,839 --> 00:04:46,120 Speaker 1: one page message with six recommendations, two by me, two 85 00:04:46,120 --> 00:04:49,760 Speaker 1: by Mark Tube Claudia. We publish cool tools and they're 86 00:04:49,839 --> 00:04:52,599 Speaker 1: kind of like whatever we want to recommend, whether it's 87 00:04:53,040 --> 00:04:55,960 Speaker 1: a cool tool or a cool place to visit or 88 00:04:56,680 --> 00:04:59,840 Speaker 1: somebody to follow, something to watch, something to read. It's 89 00:05:00,120 --> 00:05:02,400 Speaker 1: just kind of pretty broad in that sense. And sometimes 90 00:05:02,440 --> 00:05:06,400 Speaker 1: there's tips, sometimes there's other kinds of suggestions, and so 91 00:05:06,600 --> 00:05:11,840 Speaker 1: we try to amuse ourselves not repeating ourselves. And we've 92 00:05:11,880 --> 00:05:13,920 Speaker 1: been going almost four years, and we're going to have 93 00:05:14,160 --> 00:05:17,160 Speaker 1: an expanded book version of it coming out self published 94 00:05:17,200 --> 00:05:19,440 Speaker 1: wise or on demand. I guess they call it publishing 95 00:05:19,920 --> 00:05:24,599 Speaker 1: this Christmas time. So it's part of what I do. 96 00:05:24,640 --> 00:05:26,120 Speaker 1: It's part of what I've always done. It's part of 97 00:05:26,839 --> 00:05:30,320 Speaker 1: my habitual take on the world is I'm always sniffing 98 00:05:30,360 --> 00:05:35,960 Speaker 1: around for cool stuff. And just as you know, I 99 00:05:36,040 --> 00:05:39,160 Speaker 1: don't know, a musician might be always doodling on their 100 00:05:39,240 --> 00:05:45,080 Speaker 1: guitar and occasionally, you know, some chords or hook comes in, 101 00:05:45,120 --> 00:05:46,400 Speaker 1: and that's just what they do. 102 00:05:46,440 --> 00:05:47,000 Speaker 2: That's how they do. 103 00:05:47,160 --> 00:05:50,560 Speaker 1: I am kind of always sniffing around for things, and 104 00:05:50,600 --> 00:05:51,360 Speaker 1: that's how I do it. 105 00:05:51,720 --> 00:05:53,880 Speaker 3: If I were a fly on the wall watching you 106 00:05:53,920 --> 00:05:56,279 Speaker 3: sniff around, I feel like the way you must sniff 107 00:05:56,279 --> 00:05:58,719 Speaker 3: around on the internet is different from a lot of 108 00:05:58,760 --> 00:06:02,040 Speaker 3: other people because you you are people's go to source 109 00:06:02,080 --> 00:06:04,720 Speaker 3: for so many things. So what are the things that 110 00:06:04,800 --> 00:06:08,039 Speaker 3: you're doing differently when you are like sniffing around on 111 00:06:08,080 --> 00:06:09,000 Speaker 3: the internet. 112 00:06:09,320 --> 00:06:11,960 Speaker 2: Well, that's that's a fair question. I haven't been asked that, 113 00:06:12,160 --> 00:06:13,040 Speaker 2: you see so. 114 00:06:16,160 --> 00:06:20,840 Speaker 1: Well, Actually, you know, I don't really spend that much 115 00:06:20,839 --> 00:06:23,720 Speaker 1: time sitting in front of the computer compared to maybe 116 00:06:23,760 --> 00:06:26,880 Speaker 1: some other people. But I would include in my sniffing 117 00:06:26,920 --> 00:06:32,000 Speaker 1: around having conversations with people. So I do have a 118 00:06:32,040 --> 00:06:34,960 Speaker 1: lot of conversations, and I would include even these kinds 119 00:06:34,960 --> 00:06:39,320 Speaker 1: of conversations where the range is pretty wide. And I 120 00:06:39,360 --> 00:06:43,440 Speaker 1: think maybe here's maybe one answer to your question is 121 00:06:43,440 --> 00:06:48,920 Speaker 1: that my interests are pretty wide. So I am kind 122 00:06:48,920 --> 00:06:51,119 Speaker 1: of always interested in learning things. And so I'm going 123 00:06:51,200 --> 00:06:56,279 Speaker 1: down and going into areas where I know nothing, and 124 00:06:57,600 --> 00:07:04,560 Speaker 1: that is very productive for finding things that you know, 125 00:07:04,920 --> 00:07:09,679 Speaker 1: are interesting because they're just out of the normal circle 126 00:07:09,760 --> 00:07:13,200 Speaker 1: and the normal mill stuff. And so that's one thing. 127 00:07:13,200 --> 00:07:16,320 Speaker 1: And I like to have pretty broad conversations with people 128 00:07:16,360 --> 00:07:18,840 Speaker 1: and talk to people that I have just met or 129 00:07:19,000 --> 00:07:22,920 Speaker 1: meeting and so so so there's a conversational element that 130 00:07:22,920 --> 00:07:24,920 Speaker 1: that I do spend a lot of my day with 131 00:07:25,080 --> 00:07:30,160 Speaker 1: in conversations. And then there is another aspect, which is 132 00:07:30,240 --> 00:07:32,160 Speaker 1: I am, and have been since I was a kid, 133 00:07:32,200 --> 00:07:35,400 Speaker 1: a maker. I make stuff. I make all kinds of things, 134 00:07:35,480 --> 00:07:37,720 Speaker 1: and again I like to broaden the kinds of things 135 00:07:37,760 --> 00:07:43,240 Speaker 1: that have making, and that making forces me to try 136 00:07:43,240 --> 00:07:48,040 Speaker 1: out things, to research things, to do stuff, and in 137 00:07:48,080 --> 00:07:53,640 Speaker 1: that doing I learn. And so whether it's manual things 138 00:07:53,800 --> 00:07:56,920 Speaker 1: or you know, building a business or starting something there's 139 00:07:57,560 --> 00:08:01,000 Speaker 1: by by making things and making things happen and trying 140 00:08:01,000 --> 00:08:03,280 Speaker 1: to spend a lot of my day in the making mode, 141 00:08:03,520 --> 00:08:07,920 Speaker 1: the creation mode, that kind of surfaces philos of these things. 142 00:08:08,360 --> 00:08:10,360 Speaker 3: I want to pick up on what you said around 143 00:08:10,520 --> 00:08:13,800 Speaker 3: starting fresh with something and when you are starting fresh 144 00:08:13,880 --> 00:08:18,440 Speaker 3: with a topic, where do you start? I mean, that's 145 00:08:18,480 --> 00:08:21,160 Speaker 3: so overwhelming for so many people. So what does that 146 00:08:21,200 --> 00:08:23,640 Speaker 3: look like for you, those first few steps that you're taking? 147 00:08:24,000 --> 00:08:28,360 Speaker 1: So like right now, I recently added a three D printer. 148 00:08:29,840 --> 00:08:31,520 Speaker 1: They've been around for a long time, but I never 149 00:08:31,520 --> 00:08:33,800 Speaker 1: had one, never had the need for one. But I 150 00:08:33,840 --> 00:08:37,280 Speaker 1: have several tool philosophies being a cool tool kind of person, 151 00:08:37,840 --> 00:08:40,640 Speaker 1: and one of them is to not buy a tool 152 00:08:40,760 --> 00:08:42,440 Speaker 1: until five minutes before I. 153 00:08:42,480 --> 00:08:45,800 Speaker 2: Actually need it. Oh I like that because they're so. 154 00:08:45,760 --> 00:08:49,080 Speaker 1: Available, so easy Amazon next day deliveries, Like there is 155 00:08:49,200 --> 00:08:53,320 Speaker 1: simply no reason to have one before you are, i 156 00:08:53,320 --> 00:08:56,280 Speaker 1: mean literally are going to sit down or stand and 157 00:08:56,400 --> 00:09:00,559 Speaker 1: use it. And so I've known about d D printers for 158 00:09:00,600 --> 00:09:02,480 Speaker 1: a long time, but I've never really absolutely had to 159 00:09:02,480 --> 00:09:04,679 Speaker 1: have one, because you could always mail off and have 160 00:09:04,720 --> 00:09:06,920 Speaker 1: shape ways or somebody make one for you or a friend. 161 00:09:07,320 --> 00:09:09,840 Speaker 1: But I needed I moved to a place where I 162 00:09:09,960 --> 00:09:12,240 Speaker 1: needed to do some of that, so I got one. 163 00:09:12,760 --> 00:09:16,480 Speaker 1: And it turned out that while there's some maintenance in 164 00:09:16,880 --> 00:09:20,640 Speaker 1: keeping the printer going that I didn't expect, most of 165 00:09:20,679 --> 00:09:24,520 Speaker 1: the work was learning how to deal with and create 166 00:09:24,840 --> 00:09:28,520 Speaker 1: three D files. Files in three D, three D you 167 00:09:28,559 --> 00:09:33,520 Speaker 1: know objects. This is like a whole new world, and I, like, 168 00:09:33,600 --> 00:09:36,800 Speaker 1: I entered it and realized, oh my gosh, I don't 169 00:09:36,840 --> 00:09:37,320 Speaker 1: know anything. 170 00:09:37,400 --> 00:09:39,160 Speaker 2: This is like totally new. 171 00:09:39,200 --> 00:09:45,760 Speaker 1: I am total beginner, and so my method is to 172 00:09:45,800 --> 00:09:48,640 Speaker 1: try something. So it's to kind of like to try 173 00:09:48,679 --> 00:09:53,200 Speaker 1: to learn by doing a project rather than you know, 174 00:09:53,360 --> 00:09:56,520 Speaker 1: just taking the course and then going as I like 175 00:09:56,600 --> 00:09:58,640 Speaker 1: to kind of learn as I go along. It's kind 176 00:09:58,640 --> 00:10:01,040 Speaker 1: of like on demand learning where I need it. I 177 00:10:01,360 --> 00:10:03,199 Speaker 1: need to know this thing right now, so I'll go 178 00:10:03,720 --> 00:10:05,360 Speaker 1: and then I well to do as I go, and 179 00:10:05,400 --> 00:10:09,320 Speaker 1: I'll go to YouTube almost always to learn how to 180 00:10:09,400 --> 00:10:12,959 Speaker 1: do it, and then do it until I get stuck, 181 00:10:13,000 --> 00:10:16,200 Speaker 1: and then go back and learn how go back to 182 00:10:16,240 --> 00:10:18,480 Speaker 1: YouTube and learn how to do the next thing. And 183 00:10:18,520 --> 00:10:21,840 Speaker 1: then after I do that, I realized, oh my gosh, 184 00:10:21,880 --> 00:10:24,640 Speaker 1: I'm missing some real fundamental knowledge. I need to take 185 00:10:24,679 --> 00:10:28,400 Speaker 1: the one on one introductory course. And at that point 186 00:10:28,440 --> 00:10:34,000 Speaker 1: I have enough questions that that course is really valuable. 187 00:10:34,280 --> 00:10:35,920 Speaker 1: But when I start off, if I just start off 188 00:10:35,920 --> 00:10:38,760 Speaker 1: taking the course of the training of the Linda course 189 00:10:38,880 --> 00:10:43,080 Speaker 1: whatever it is, it doesn't I don't know, it doesn't stick. 190 00:10:44,320 --> 00:10:47,000 Speaker 1: So I like to do kind of on demand learning 191 00:10:47,080 --> 00:10:48,199 Speaker 1: even from the beginning. 192 00:10:49,160 --> 00:10:50,200 Speaker 4: Yeah, that's interesting. 193 00:10:50,240 --> 00:10:54,840 Speaker 3: And when you're on YouTube trying to find the I 194 00:10:54,880 --> 00:10:59,280 Speaker 3: guess the most useful videos to watch, how are you 195 00:10:59,400 --> 00:11:00,040 Speaker 3: doing that? 196 00:11:00,360 --> 00:11:00,440 Speaker 2: Like? 197 00:11:00,480 --> 00:11:02,840 Speaker 3: Are there people that you trust that you're going to 198 00:11:02,960 --> 00:11:05,240 Speaker 3: Are there certain search terms that you're typing in that 199 00:11:05,320 --> 00:11:07,680 Speaker 3: maybe other people wouldn't think to type in. 200 00:11:08,920 --> 00:11:11,120 Speaker 2: No, I'm not that sophisticated. There are. 201 00:11:11,120 --> 00:11:14,160 Speaker 1: There are a couple terms for things. Like one of 202 00:11:14,200 --> 00:11:15,840 Speaker 1: the things I did learn is that you if you 203 00:11:15,880 --> 00:11:19,640 Speaker 1: want to find good reviews, use, you know, use the 204 00:11:19,640 --> 00:11:24,640 Speaker 1: word use vs versus something versus something else, and that 205 00:11:24,720 --> 00:11:28,720 Speaker 1: will turn up things. And another kind of a search 206 00:11:29,320 --> 00:11:31,600 Speaker 1: hack is to use the word solution. When you have 207 00:11:31,640 --> 00:11:34,880 Speaker 1: a problem, add the word solution, so you just don't 208 00:11:34,880 --> 00:11:35,400 Speaker 1: hear the problem. 209 00:11:35,400 --> 00:11:40,160 Speaker 2: You hear, but the solutions are. But the truth. 210 00:11:39,920 --> 00:11:43,480 Speaker 1: Is that I rely a lot on the recommendation engine 211 00:11:43,640 --> 00:11:46,439 Speaker 1: of YouTube when I'm searching around, So those are usually 212 00:11:46,440 --> 00:11:49,360 Speaker 1: the first ones I look at. I'll look at the 213 00:11:49,520 --> 00:11:55,680 Speaker 1: automatically recommended ones as one way to kind of search 214 00:11:55,720 --> 00:12:00,960 Speaker 1: through it. And you know, obviously the qualities call uneven. 215 00:12:02,040 --> 00:12:06,200 Speaker 1: It really varies tremendously, and there is, by the way, 216 00:12:06,200 --> 00:12:09,440 Speaker 1: anybody out there there is there is a huge need 217 00:12:09,440 --> 00:12:14,679 Speaker 1: and market for kind of a Wikipedia version or I 218 00:12:14,760 --> 00:12:18,160 Speaker 1: don't even know what to say, a user's guide, or 219 00:12:19,720 --> 00:12:22,120 Speaker 1: if I have to see a whole worth catalog version 220 00:12:22,640 --> 00:12:27,640 Speaker 1: of YouTube stuff, because it is troublesome and not very 221 00:12:28,160 --> 00:12:31,200 Speaker 1: elegant looking for the best of the ones that you're 222 00:12:31,480 --> 00:12:35,120 Speaker 1: searching for, but sometimes you know that they are so 223 00:12:35,200 --> 00:12:41,040 Speaker 1: obscure that it's hard to imagine any human doing this. 224 00:12:41,160 --> 00:12:43,240 Speaker 1: I think this may be a job for AI, helping 225 00:12:43,360 --> 00:12:47,360 Speaker 1: us to find higher quality ones by actually looking not 226 00:12:47,520 --> 00:12:51,040 Speaker 1: just at what people say, right, but actually looking at 227 00:12:51,080 --> 00:12:56,480 Speaker 1: the video itself in a high level capacity. Nonetheless, it 228 00:12:56,559 --> 00:13:01,800 Speaker 1: is it is a chore, and I've watched I share 229 00:13:01,920 --> 00:13:07,000 Speaker 1: of really horrible tutorials, but it's worth going through that 230 00:13:08,080 --> 00:13:13,920 Speaker 1: because even with that, the power and the speed and 231 00:13:14,000 --> 00:13:17,440 Speaker 1: the depth of you two is just amazing that I 232 00:13:17,440 --> 00:13:21,960 Speaker 1: think highly highly underappreciated the value and what it's doing 233 00:13:21,960 --> 00:13:24,839 Speaker 1: in the way that it's accelerating learning and culture, and 234 00:13:24,920 --> 00:13:27,640 Speaker 1: I'm wholly dependent on it. And you know, I go 235 00:13:27,720 --> 00:13:31,160 Speaker 1: there for answers, and I go there for recreation, just 236 00:13:31,200 --> 00:13:35,640 Speaker 1: to just to watch a master maker make something. 237 00:13:36,200 --> 00:13:39,560 Speaker 3: Hmmm, yes, it's really interesting. I want to come back 238 00:13:39,600 --> 00:13:42,040 Speaker 3: to what you said about your tool philosophy. I like 239 00:13:42,080 --> 00:13:45,280 Speaker 3: that idea of not getting something until five minutes before 240 00:13:45,320 --> 00:13:47,960 Speaker 3: you need it. What are some of your other tool philosophies. 241 00:13:48,240 --> 00:13:52,120 Speaker 2: Another one is that I believe in earning great tools. 242 00:13:52,280 --> 00:13:55,800 Speaker 1: That almost all the tools that I buy at the 243 00:13:55,800 --> 00:13:58,880 Speaker 1: beginning are all cheap. And here we call we have 244 00:13:58,920 --> 00:14:03,079 Speaker 1: harbor freates. Afraid it is kind of a Chinese and 245 00:14:03,160 --> 00:14:06,760 Speaker 1: it's low end, not low end. It's very inexpensive. It's 246 00:14:06,840 --> 00:14:11,080 Speaker 1: not I write cheap tools, power tools, often tools, and 247 00:14:11,160 --> 00:14:14,040 Speaker 1: it has kind of a reputation as really being low end. 248 00:14:14,960 --> 00:14:17,720 Speaker 1: But for some cases, a low end tool is all 249 00:14:17,760 --> 00:14:21,720 Speaker 1: that you will ever need. And in other cases, what 250 00:14:21,760 --> 00:14:26,280 Speaker 1: I like to do is I like to earn the 251 00:14:27,080 --> 00:14:31,400 Speaker 1: more expensive, durable tool because by using the cheap tool, 252 00:14:31,680 --> 00:14:33,560 Speaker 1: as I said, sometimes it's all I need, and if 253 00:14:33,560 --> 00:14:37,800 Speaker 1: I'm an occasional user, it's plenty. Other times, if I 254 00:14:37,880 --> 00:14:40,920 Speaker 1: decide that or find out myself. Using it more and more, 255 00:14:41,960 --> 00:14:45,360 Speaker 1: I begin to understand what I want from it, what's missing, 256 00:14:46,160 --> 00:14:48,520 Speaker 1: and what I'm willing to pay for, and the kind 257 00:14:48,560 --> 00:14:53,280 Speaker 1: of features or the quality that I do desire through 258 00:14:53,400 --> 00:14:56,440 Speaker 1: use through using it, and then I can and then 259 00:14:56,440 --> 00:14:59,040 Speaker 1: I'm kind of educated and ready to buy something better, 260 00:14:59,120 --> 00:15:01,000 Speaker 1: and that may not even be the best. That may 261 00:15:01,240 --> 00:15:03,360 Speaker 1: do another step of using that one and finding that, 262 00:15:03,440 --> 00:15:05,120 Speaker 1: oh I'm using a lot and I still need an 263 00:15:05,160 --> 00:15:09,120 Speaker 1: even better one. And so rather than kind of you know, 264 00:15:09,240 --> 00:15:11,960 Speaker 1: some people preach, you know, buy the very best tool 265 00:15:12,000 --> 00:15:15,560 Speaker 1: that you can afford, I don't do that. I buy 266 00:15:15,600 --> 00:15:20,480 Speaker 1: the cheapest possible tool to begin with, because oftentimes that 267 00:15:20,680 --> 00:15:24,960 Speaker 1: is enough that I'll ever use. Sometimes even with heavy use, 268 00:15:25,120 --> 00:15:29,480 Speaker 1: like a harbor freight thirty dollars grinder is almost indestructible. 269 00:15:29,680 --> 00:15:33,400 Speaker 1: I mean, it's like you're just there's probably all you 270 00:15:33,600 --> 00:15:36,600 Speaker 1: ever really need unless you're a professional of some sort. 271 00:15:37,000 --> 00:15:41,520 Speaker 1: So I like to move up and earn where I say, 272 00:15:41,600 --> 00:15:46,480 Speaker 1: earn the expensive tools by becoming educated through the use 273 00:15:46,520 --> 00:15:47,640 Speaker 1: of the cheaper tools. 274 00:15:48,120 --> 00:15:50,960 Speaker 3: That's a really interesting philosophy. I'm going to have to 275 00:15:51,000 --> 00:15:54,280 Speaker 3: think about that for myself because It's definitely not one that. 276 00:15:54,320 --> 00:15:56,000 Speaker 4: I tend to apply. 277 00:15:56,080 --> 00:15:57,960 Speaker 3: I feel like I'll try to go straight to the best, 278 00:15:58,000 --> 00:16:00,680 Speaker 3: but I lack the idea of why you wouldn't do 279 00:16:00,800 --> 00:16:03,440 Speaker 3: that that makes a lot of sense. Something I want 280 00:16:03,480 --> 00:16:06,160 Speaker 3: to segue into is one of the most popular blog 281 00:16:06,200 --> 00:16:10,520 Speaker 3: posts that you've written is sixty eight bits of Unsolicited Advice. 282 00:16:10,800 --> 00:16:12,560 Speaker 3: And I must say, out of all the blog posts 283 00:16:12,600 --> 00:16:15,680 Speaker 3: that I've read in my time using the internet, that 284 00:16:15,800 --> 00:16:19,040 Speaker 3: is probably one that I've shared most frequently with a 285 00:16:19,040 --> 00:16:19,640 Speaker 3: lot of people. 286 00:16:19,960 --> 00:16:21,480 Speaker 2: Well, thank you, thank you very much. 287 00:16:21,960 --> 00:16:22,920 Speaker 4: I think it's just brilliant. 288 00:16:22,960 --> 00:16:24,120 Speaker 3: And I'm going to link to it in the show 289 00:16:24,160 --> 00:16:26,440 Speaker 3: notes because I think for listeners, if you haven't read it, 290 00:16:27,120 --> 00:16:27,680 Speaker 3: just read it. 291 00:16:28,000 --> 00:16:28,560 Speaker 4: And there are a. 292 00:16:28,480 --> 00:16:31,880 Speaker 3: Few that I want to dig into because I'm curious 293 00:16:31,920 --> 00:16:35,240 Speaker 3: around how you personally use them at the moment in 294 00:16:35,440 --> 00:16:38,600 Speaker 3: your life. So one of the bits of advice is 295 00:16:38,600 --> 00:16:40,760 Speaker 3: you say the purpose of a habit is to remove 296 00:16:40,840 --> 00:16:42,680 Speaker 3: the action from self negotiation. 297 00:16:42,880 --> 00:16:46,080 Speaker 4: You know, longer expand energy deciding whether to do it. 298 00:16:46,080 --> 00:16:46,720 Speaker 4: You just do it. 299 00:16:46,760 --> 00:16:49,160 Speaker 3: Good habits can range from telling the truth to flushing 300 00:16:49,280 --> 00:16:51,400 Speaker 3: and I love that I use that a lot in 301 00:16:51,440 --> 00:16:52,880 Speaker 3: my life, and I want to know for you, what 302 00:16:53,360 --> 00:16:57,840 Speaker 3: habits have you formed that you think have served you best, 303 00:16:57,880 --> 00:16:58,760 Speaker 3: like perhaps over. 304 00:16:58,560 --> 00:17:02,000 Speaker 2: The last year or two, new habits or. 305 00:17:01,960 --> 00:17:04,480 Speaker 4: Old habits as well, happy to go for old habits. 306 00:17:05,280 --> 00:17:08,439 Speaker 1: On the intermitt what they call intermittent fasting bandwagoning. So 307 00:17:09,440 --> 00:17:13,800 Speaker 1: I stopped eating breakfast, and you know, I kind of 308 00:17:13,800 --> 00:17:15,040 Speaker 1: like thought about it for a long time, and then 309 00:17:15,040 --> 00:17:16,679 Speaker 1: I kind of like say, Okay, I'm gonna make a commandment. 310 00:17:16,680 --> 00:17:18,040 Speaker 1: I'm going to make it a habit. And so now 311 00:17:18,760 --> 00:17:20,679 Speaker 1: it's just like not an option, it's just I just 312 00:17:20,720 --> 00:17:22,280 Speaker 1: don't do it, and I don't have to think about it. 313 00:17:22,320 --> 00:17:23,480 Speaker 2: I don't have to negotiate it. 314 00:17:23,480 --> 00:17:26,240 Speaker 1: It's just like I don't I don't do breakfast anymore, 315 00:17:26,280 --> 00:17:30,840 Speaker 1: and this no longer. And so it's easy in some 316 00:17:30,880 --> 00:17:34,840 Speaker 1: ways to kind of do because I'm not negotiating, and 317 00:17:34,880 --> 00:17:39,000 Speaker 1: there's no exceptions, there's no you know, it's just now 318 00:17:39,000 --> 00:17:40,160 Speaker 1: it's just a habit. 319 00:17:40,480 --> 00:17:45,360 Speaker 2: And uh have I had. 320 00:17:45,400 --> 00:17:47,639 Speaker 1: I'm trying to think of some other habits this year 321 00:17:47,760 --> 00:17:50,920 Speaker 1: that I picked up. I'm trying to make it a habit, 322 00:17:51,200 --> 00:17:54,159 Speaker 1: but I haven't quite succeeded, which is I have this 323 00:17:54,760 --> 00:17:56,720 Speaker 1: the beginning of the year, I declared that I'm going 324 00:17:56,760 --> 00:18:01,199 Speaker 1: to now go what I call video first. So it 325 00:18:01,280 --> 00:18:04,280 Speaker 1: was a sort of an idea that anything that I produce, 326 00:18:05,480 --> 00:18:09,159 Speaker 1: I would start with video first and then move to 327 00:18:09,320 --> 00:18:15,320 Speaker 1: text or move to other media because I have been 328 00:18:16,320 --> 00:18:19,760 Speaker 1: I've spent fifty years being a still image person, a 329 00:18:19,920 --> 00:18:26,760 Speaker 1: text oriented person, and the culture is definitely moved away 330 00:18:27,160 --> 00:18:31,399 Speaker 1: from text and books to YouTube. To go back to 331 00:18:31,480 --> 00:18:36,760 Speaker 1: my point, and moving images on the screen, so we're 332 00:18:36,760 --> 00:18:38,639 Speaker 1: no longer people of the book, were people of the screen, 333 00:18:38,800 --> 00:18:41,800 Speaker 1: and I am trying to move myself there. And so 334 00:18:42,000 --> 00:18:44,320 Speaker 1: like on my phone, I have a habit I would 335 00:18:44,320 --> 00:18:47,240 Speaker 1: have a habit of taking still pictures, and now I'm 336 00:18:47,600 --> 00:18:49,720 Speaker 1: trying to make the new habit of taking a video 337 00:18:49,920 --> 00:18:55,000 Speaker 1: instead of a still picture because I need to retrain 338 00:18:55,119 --> 00:18:59,680 Speaker 1: my brain from being a still camera to moving in time. 339 00:18:59,720 --> 00:19:04,320 Speaker 1: And so I'm trying as much as possible to make 340 00:19:04,359 --> 00:19:07,480 Speaker 1: that a habit of hit the video first, think in 341 00:19:07,560 --> 00:19:11,159 Speaker 1: terms of video, reconceive it in terms of video, be 342 00:19:11,440 --> 00:19:12,760 Speaker 1: the video rather than be. 343 00:19:12,800 --> 00:19:13,720 Speaker 2: The still image. 344 00:19:13,800 --> 00:19:18,760 Speaker 1: And so I haven't been fully successful and not thinking 345 00:19:18,800 --> 00:19:21,280 Speaker 1: about that. I'm still still kind of working on that, 346 00:19:21,359 --> 00:19:23,920 Speaker 1: but I think I can finish the year with making 347 00:19:23,920 --> 00:19:24,440 Speaker 1: that out a habit. 348 00:19:25,240 --> 00:19:25,800 Speaker 4: I like that. 349 00:19:25,920 --> 00:19:29,919 Speaker 3: And what about work habits and new and old work habits, 350 00:19:29,960 --> 00:19:32,480 Speaker 3: because I feel like a lot of people have had to, 351 00:19:32,600 --> 00:19:34,560 Speaker 3: or you know, would be well served to have formed 352 00:19:34,560 --> 00:19:37,840 Speaker 3: new work habits, given how the landscape in which we 353 00:19:37,920 --> 00:19:39,280 Speaker 3: work has changed because of COVID. 354 00:19:39,320 --> 00:19:41,360 Speaker 4: But what are some work habits that serve you well? 355 00:19:41,640 --> 00:19:45,919 Speaker 1: My work habits are just terrible. I don't even know 356 00:19:45,960 --> 00:19:50,560 Speaker 1: if I mean, I'm sort of embarrassed by how bad 357 00:19:50,600 --> 00:19:54,920 Speaker 1: they are. But I probably do all the wrong things. 358 00:19:55,920 --> 00:19:57,240 Speaker 1: I know a lot of people, and I have a 359 00:19:57,359 --> 00:20:01,720 Speaker 1: daughter who have very i don't know what you call it, 360 00:20:01,800 --> 00:20:06,879 Speaker 1: strict to do lists, who plan the week out and 361 00:20:06,960 --> 00:20:07,840 Speaker 1: all this kind of stuff. 362 00:20:08,400 --> 00:20:10,120 Speaker 2: I am unable to do that. 363 00:20:10,560 --> 00:20:12,960 Speaker 1: I don't even have a to do list except for 364 00:20:13,000 --> 00:20:15,080 Speaker 1: maybe kind of in the back of my head. And 365 00:20:15,840 --> 00:20:19,320 Speaker 1: I believe in the power of interruption, so I let 366 00:20:19,320 --> 00:20:23,840 Speaker 1: myself be interrupted, not necessarily by you know, distractions. But 367 00:20:23,920 --> 00:20:27,320 Speaker 1: I have visitors. We have a large kind of social 368 00:20:27,320 --> 00:20:34,000 Speaker 1: bubble family here, so i'd like I like to keep 369 00:20:34,040 --> 00:20:39,280 Speaker 1: the day very varied and switch from sitting in front 370 00:20:39,280 --> 00:20:41,640 Speaker 1: of their computer, could going down to my workshop and 371 00:20:41,760 --> 00:20:45,040 Speaker 1: working for a while in the workshop, and then going 372 00:20:45,080 --> 00:20:48,440 Speaker 1: out to do some photography and then I mean coming 373 00:20:48,480 --> 00:20:50,359 Speaker 1: back in and I don't do much of that on 374 00:20:50,400 --> 00:20:53,399 Speaker 1: a regular schedule, so I have kind of I'm a 375 00:20:53,440 --> 00:20:58,479 Speaker 1: little bit kind of free form flowing, and you know, 376 00:20:58,520 --> 00:20:59,840 Speaker 1: I do have things in the back of my head, 377 00:20:59,840 --> 00:21:03,080 Speaker 1: so you know, I've got to finish that video for 378 00:21:03,240 --> 00:21:06,280 Speaker 1: these people, or I have a presentation that I have 379 00:21:06,320 --> 00:21:09,240 Speaker 1: to do, and it's kind of there. I do the 380 00:21:09,400 --> 00:21:11,640 Speaker 1: hard work late at night. I'm kind of a night 381 00:21:11,640 --> 00:21:15,479 Speaker 1: out that way. I have one little habit that may 382 00:21:15,520 --> 00:21:19,840 Speaker 1: be worth talking about when I have some really hard 383 00:21:20,040 --> 00:21:23,879 Speaker 1: writing to do. I'm not a born writer. I'm a 384 00:21:23,880 --> 00:21:27,959 Speaker 1: born editor. That first draft is a killer for me. 385 00:21:28,160 --> 00:21:31,479 Speaker 1: Is painful because for me, it's a kind of thinking 386 00:21:31,560 --> 00:21:34,160 Speaker 1: and I write in order to find out what I think, 387 00:21:34,160 --> 00:21:35,879 Speaker 1: because I don't know what I think until I write it. 388 00:21:36,560 --> 00:21:38,160 Speaker 1: And then as the beginning to write it, I realize 389 00:21:38,200 --> 00:21:40,399 Speaker 1: I don't have any idea what I'm talking about, and 390 00:21:40,480 --> 00:21:45,240 Speaker 1: so that first draft is really really difficult. And to 391 00:21:45,359 --> 00:21:47,960 Speaker 1: help me when I'm kind of really working through a 392 00:21:48,080 --> 00:21:52,760 Speaker 1: tough first draft is I have a song that I 393 00:21:52,800 --> 00:21:56,240 Speaker 1: play on a loop with headsets and it just goes 394 00:21:56,400 --> 00:21:59,159 Speaker 1: round and around and around. It's the same song, and 395 00:21:59,160 --> 00:22:02,080 Speaker 1: I've picked up that trick from a couple of people 396 00:22:02,680 --> 00:22:06,080 Speaker 1: that you play this thing and it's it's there's something. 397 00:22:05,840 --> 00:22:08,600 Speaker 2: Weird about it. It's very soothing. 398 00:22:08,640 --> 00:22:11,080 Speaker 1: I know people who work in like cafes and they 399 00:22:11,160 --> 00:22:12,160 Speaker 1: like that background noise. 400 00:22:12,400 --> 00:22:13,960 Speaker 2: This is something similar. I guess. 401 00:22:14,760 --> 00:22:17,520 Speaker 1: It's just the same song on a loop again and again, 402 00:22:17,680 --> 00:22:21,240 Speaker 1: and just hearing it kind of makes me productive. 403 00:22:21,359 --> 00:22:22,520 Speaker 2: I don't know, it makes. 404 00:22:22,359 --> 00:22:25,080 Speaker 1: Me kind of like distraction fully away and I can 405 00:22:25,200 --> 00:22:29,480 Speaker 1: really really focus. And so I would recommend to people 406 00:22:29,920 --> 00:22:33,320 Speaker 1: give it a try. Find something that you think you 407 00:22:33,359 --> 00:22:35,960 Speaker 1: wouldn't mind hearing a thousand times, and then it's just 408 00:22:36,160 --> 00:22:38,680 Speaker 1: play it on a loop and it it's kind of 409 00:22:38,680 --> 00:22:40,800 Speaker 1: like a trance, you know. It makes it kind of 410 00:22:40,880 --> 00:22:43,919 Speaker 1: a work trance, I guess. So that works when I 411 00:22:43,960 --> 00:22:47,879 Speaker 1: have some really hard writing where I am having to 412 00:22:48,080 --> 00:22:51,040 Speaker 1: completely focus and think very very hard. 413 00:22:51,480 --> 00:22:53,920 Speaker 4: Is there a specific song that you'll go to. 414 00:22:53,840 --> 00:22:56,000 Speaker 2: Or for me? For me, there is one song. 415 00:22:56,040 --> 00:22:58,280 Speaker 1: It's the same song and I've been using for years 416 00:22:59,000 --> 00:23:05,040 Speaker 1: and it's a Bulgarians men's choir with a Gregorian chant. 417 00:23:06,760 --> 00:23:09,560 Speaker 1: I have no idea what it's what they're saying. It's, 418 00:23:09,920 --> 00:23:14,680 Speaker 1: you know, vocals, like a weird Bulgaria kind of meal 419 00:23:15,240 --> 00:23:18,679 Speaker 1: was the word. It's like, it's like a deep, strange 420 00:23:18,760 --> 00:23:26,760 Speaker 1: medieval chant, And for some reason, when I heard it, 421 00:23:26,760 --> 00:23:32,000 Speaker 1: it made me kind of at ease, meditative, And so 422 00:23:32,840 --> 00:23:35,440 Speaker 1: now I've played it so many times I can almost 423 00:23:35,480 --> 00:23:37,160 Speaker 1: start writing as soon as I hear it. 424 00:23:37,920 --> 00:23:38,760 Speaker 4: Wow, that's great. 425 00:23:38,840 --> 00:23:40,840 Speaker 3: I had Matt Mullenwig on the show a couple of 426 00:23:40,960 --> 00:23:43,040 Speaker 3: years ago now, and he does the exact same thing. 427 00:23:43,080 --> 00:23:44,919 Speaker 3: I think it was actually just transitioning out of it 428 00:23:45,000 --> 00:23:48,800 Speaker 3: and just doing whole albums rather than some I. 429 00:23:48,760 --> 00:23:51,919 Speaker 1: Think Matt might be one, and maybe Jason coy Am 430 00:23:51,960 --> 00:23:53,760 Speaker 1: I sure, but it's not uncommon. 431 00:23:54,280 --> 00:23:55,080 Speaker 4: Yeah. Interesting. 432 00:23:55,560 --> 00:24:00,640 Speaker 3: Another bit of advice in the blog is you say, 433 00:24:00,720 --> 00:24:04,200 Speaker 3: perhaps the most counterintuitive truth of the universe is that 434 00:24:04,240 --> 00:24:07,040 Speaker 3: the more you give to others, the more you'll get understanding. 435 00:24:07,040 --> 00:24:08,440 Speaker 4: This is the beginning of wisdom. 436 00:24:08,960 --> 00:24:12,160 Speaker 3: And I imagine for you like, well, I can't even 437 00:24:12,200 --> 00:24:15,680 Speaker 3: begin to imagine how many demands you must get on 438 00:24:16,240 --> 00:24:18,760 Speaker 3: your time, with who you are and your profile and 439 00:24:18,880 --> 00:24:19,840 Speaker 3: your networks. 440 00:24:19,480 --> 00:24:20,080 Speaker 4: And so forth. 441 00:24:20,119 --> 00:24:23,440 Speaker 3: And I want to know how do you decide who 442 00:24:24,119 --> 00:24:27,800 Speaker 3: and when to give to and also when to say no, okay? 443 00:24:28,560 --> 00:24:31,240 Speaker 1: Number two questions I've never been asked before as good one. 444 00:24:34,320 --> 00:24:38,360 Speaker 1: It's a great question, and how do I decide? So 445 00:24:38,840 --> 00:24:41,679 Speaker 1: I'm past him because I don't know, I'm having to 446 00:24:41,800 --> 00:24:43,440 Speaker 1: think about that. 447 00:24:44,480 --> 00:24:46,640 Speaker 2: How do I decide? 448 00:24:47,320 --> 00:24:51,840 Speaker 1: So there is a very large component of wanting to 449 00:24:51,960 --> 00:24:54,679 Speaker 1: learn something. This has something to do with the kind 450 00:24:54,720 --> 00:24:58,560 Speaker 1: of conferences I will agree to go to. It's like, well, 451 00:24:58,600 --> 00:25:04,280 Speaker 1: I of to learn something from this talk or interaction 452 00:25:04,520 --> 00:25:08,600 Speaker 1: or interview, whatever it is. And so there's there's a 453 00:25:08,640 --> 00:25:11,600 Speaker 1: component of that, like like when I was doing a. 454 00:25:11,600 --> 00:25:13,280 Speaker 2: Book tour, I did a virtual book tour. 455 00:25:13,359 --> 00:25:14,879 Speaker 1: I was one of the first to do a virtual 456 00:25:15,160 --> 00:25:17,960 Speaker 1: book tour many many many years ago, where I had 457 00:25:17,960 --> 00:25:21,920 Speaker 1: a whole month of doing these kind of conversations and 458 00:25:22,400 --> 00:25:27,000 Speaker 1: I was choosing or I was letting, letting me be chosen, 459 00:25:27,640 --> 00:25:36,840 Speaker 1: really obscure, weird, like there was an association for science camps. 460 00:25:36,359 --> 00:25:38,600 Speaker 2: There was a church, there. 461 00:25:38,480 --> 00:25:42,119 Speaker 1: Was a another kind of weird high school as some 462 00:25:42,160 --> 00:25:45,840 Speaker 1: of the audiences, and for me, it was like just 463 00:25:47,119 --> 00:25:51,280 Speaker 1: having the conversation with them was a reason to say yes, 464 00:25:52,760 --> 00:25:57,680 Speaker 1: because I wouldn't normally have that ability or that opportunity. 465 00:25:58,200 --> 00:26:01,399 Speaker 1: So there's, as I would say, one part of that 466 00:26:02,840 --> 00:26:03,560 Speaker 1: answer is. 467 00:26:05,520 --> 00:26:09,200 Speaker 2: Kind of self interest. What would I be getting out 468 00:26:09,320 --> 00:26:10,320 Speaker 2: of that? 469 00:26:10,440 --> 00:26:15,920 Speaker 1: Yes, The second one is more along the lines of 470 00:26:17,080 --> 00:26:19,119 Speaker 1: and this is a little hard to quantify, will I 471 00:26:19,160 --> 00:26:24,520 Speaker 1: really be useful? Am I really the right person to 472 00:26:24,560 --> 00:26:27,040 Speaker 1: be helping? And that is one of the reasons why 473 00:26:27,080 --> 00:26:31,399 Speaker 1: I often knows is my concluding that, well, I'm really 474 00:26:31,440 --> 00:26:34,520 Speaker 1: honored that you asked and thank you, but I don't 475 00:26:34,560 --> 00:26:37,280 Speaker 1: think I'm going to bring anything of value to this. 476 00:26:38,320 --> 00:26:40,399 Speaker 1: I mean, yeah, I maybe ab'll say something, but this 477 00:26:40,520 --> 00:26:42,520 Speaker 1: is not really it's you know. 478 00:26:43,000 --> 00:26:46,440 Speaker 2: There are better people. There are better people. 479 00:26:46,160 --> 00:26:48,639 Speaker 1: Who can do this and give you more, and so 480 00:26:48,720 --> 00:26:52,440 Speaker 1: you should be going to them. And so that's another way. 481 00:26:52,480 --> 00:26:55,240 Speaker 1: So I was like, yeah, can I really add anything? 482 00:26:56,200 --> 00:26:59,440 Speaker 1: And then you know, there's kind of a trivial sense 483 00:26:59,480 --> 00:27:02,560 Speaker 1: of like, know, do I have a relationship with this person? 484 00:27:03,680 --> 00:27:07,240 Speaker 1: And for sure people that I have, you know, that 485 00:27:07,280 --> 00:27:12,280 Speaker 1: are friends that's to me at just a different dynamic. 486 00:27:13,040 --> 00:27:17,240 Speaker 1: And then there's strong friends, weak friends, new friends, associates, 487 00:27:17,359 --> 00:27:19,399 Speaker 1: and so there's a kind of a little bit of like, well, 488 00:27:20,119 --> 00:27:23,439 Speaker 1: what is what is my relationship already with this person? 489 00:27:24,080 --> 00:27:28,560 Speaker 1: Because I feel that part of having a friendship is 490 00:27:29,400 --> 00:27:32,720 Speaker 1: doing those kinds of things, having a conversation, whatever it is, 491 00:27:32,760 --> 00:27:36,359 Speaker 1: you know, being being engaged, being part of their movie, 492 00:27:36,480 --> 00:27:38,720 Speaker 1: and so so that's another. 493 00:27:38,800 --> 00:27:42,440 Speaker 2: I would say, even a significant factor in it. And then. 494 00:27:43,600 --> 00:27:48,359 Speaker 1: A fourth factor in kind of making those calculations would 495 00:27:48,400 --> 00:27:53,119 Speaker 1: be why they what's the request about really about? Is 496 00:27:53,119 --> 00:27:57,920 Speaker 1: it a commercial enterprise? Is it a school classroom project? 497 00:27:58,119 --> 00:27:58,840 Speaker 2: Is that? You know? 498 00:27:59,240 --> 00:28:02,800 Speaker 1: What is that cool nature of it? And I am 499 00:28:03,359 --> 00:28:07,080 Speaker 1: less and less inclined to do things that are just 500 00:28:07,160 --> 00:28:11,880 Speaker 1: strictly business. So anyway, I'm not sure if I don't 501 00:28:11,920 --> 00:28:15,600 Speaker 1: have a really good summary, but as I think about it, 502 00:28:15,600 --> 00:28:16,560 Speaker 1: that's what I came up with. 503 00:28:17,320 --> 00:28:19,080 Speaker 4: I like that. I like those four things. 504 00:28:19,119 --> 00:28:22,159 Speaker 3: I think the second thing that you mentioned around you know, 505 00:28:22,320 --> 00:28:26,080 Speaker 3: am I the like essentially the uniquely best placed person 506 00:28:26,240 --> 00:28:27,840 Speaker 3: to do this thing? 507 00:28:28,080 --> 00:28:29,160 Speaker 4: I find really interesting. 508 00:28:29,240 --> 00:28:32,520 Speaker 3: I think I heard that once before from Adam Grant 509 00:28:32,760 --> 00:28:34,760 Speaker 3: when I had him on the show, and he says 510 00:28:34,760 --> 00:28:39,440 Speaker 3: something similar around his kind of giving philosophy, Yeah, which 511 00:28:39,480 --> 00:28:41,200 Speaker 3: I think is it's such a useful thing to keep 512 00:28:41,200 --> 00:28:42,960 Speaker 3: in mind. It Certainly, when when I first heard that, 513 00:28:43,160 --> 00:28:46,600 Speaker 3: it definitely changed how I think about request coming through 514 00:28:46,600 --> 00:28:48,880 Speaker 3: from my time, and I really like that. There are 515 00:28:48,920 --> 00:28:50,520 Speaker 3: two other things that I want to dig into. In 516 00:28:50,560 --> 00:28:52,880 Speaker 3: the sixty eight bits of under sort of advice, the 517 00:28:53,320 --> 00:28:55,720 Speaker 3: next one is you say being able to listen well 518 00:28:55,760 --> 00:28:58,120 Speaker 3: as a superpower when listening to someone you love, keep 519 00:28:58,200 --> 00:29:01,320 Speaker 3: asking them is there more until there is no more? 520 00:29:01,840 --> 00:29:04,680 Speaker 3: So I want to know for you, I imagine you must 521 00:29:04,720 --> 00:29:08,480 Speaker 3: be a brilliant listener because you've learned so much, you 522 00:29:08,520 --> 00:29:11,560 Speaker 3: contribute so much thinking to the world, and you know 523 00:29:11,640 --> 00:29:14,640 Speaker 3: you are a lot of people's go to person for 524 00:29:14,880 --> 00:29:17,080 Speaker 3: a lot of different topics that that be digging into. 525 00:29:17,160 --> 00:29:20,720 Speaker 3: So what is it that you do that makes you 526 00:29:20,840 --> 00:29:23,640 Speaker 3: a good listener or makes you listen differently to how 527 00:29:23,840 --> 00:29:25,400 Speaker 3: other people are listening in the world. 528 00:29:25,680 --> 00:29:28,680 Speaker 1: I think it's in part what I don't have. So 529 00:29:29,520 --> 00:29:32,720 Speaker 1: I feel with a lot of conversations that I am 530 00:29:33,120 --> 00:29:39,920 Speaker 1: I actually am not a super quick witted thinker. I 531 00:29:39,920 --> 00:29:44,600 Speaker 1: don't have a quick witted response to things like usually 532 00:29:44,800 --> 00:29:46,840 Speaker 1: the other people in the room that I'm with or 533 00:29:47,160 --> 00:29:52,960 Speaker 1: you know, who are much snappier, quicker, brilliant thinkers than 534 00:29:53,000 --> 00:29:53,320 Speaker 1: I am. 535 00:29:54,040 --> 00:29:57,680 Speaker 2: And so I will listen because I don't because I 536 00:29:57,680 --> 00:29:59,120 Speaker 2: don't have anything witty to say. 537 00:30:00,000 --> 00:30:05,640 Speaker 1: So it's sort of like I'm sitting there because I 538 00:30:05,680 --> 00:30:09,360 Speaker 1: can't move it forward, and then I'm listening. And so 539 00:30:10,080 --> 00:30:14,640 Speaker 1: it's also I think temperamental because if I recollect back 540 00:30:14,720 --> 00:30:20,520 Speaker 1: to my time in classrooms, I didn't do something which 541 00:30:20,560 --> 00:30:23,680 Speaker 1: was I never hardy ever did the homework. I was 542 00:30:23,720 --> 00:30:28,160 Speaker 1: just terrible. I still have nightmares about that. But what 543 00:30:28,200 --> 00:30:29,920 Speaker 1: I did do is I set up in the very 544 00:30:30,240 --> 00:30:33,240 Speaker 1: front row of the class and I listened really hard, 545 00:30:33,280 --> 00:30:37,160 Speaker 1: and I would ask questions, and I would listen and 546 00:30:37,240 --> 00:30:39,800 Speaker 1: ask questions, and then that was the end of the class. 547 00:30:39,800 --> 00:30:42,360 Speaker 1: I'd go home and I wouldn't even ever think about 548 00:30:42,400 --> 00:30:44,200 Speaker 1: it until I was in the class the next day, 549 00:30:45,360 --> 00:30:48,800 Speaker 1: and then I was up front listening and asking questions. 550 00:30:49,240 --> 00:30:52,280 Speaker 1: And so that is sort of just what I do, 551 00:30:53,040 --> 00:30:56,959 Speaker 1: and I, you know, for whatever reasons, again, it's probably 552 00:30:56,960 --> 00:30:57,600 Speaker 1: the cover for. 553 00:30:57,560 --> 00:30:59,400 Speaker 2: The fact that I'm not doing any of the. 554 00:30:59,360 --> 00:31:04,560 Speaker 1: Homework and I am not really making student observations. I'm 555 00:31:04,560 --> 00:31:08,720 Speaker 1: just listening and answering questions. And so I think listening 556 00:31:08,760 --> 00:31:12,560 Speaker 1: and asking questions are a good pair, and you know, 557 00:31:12,680 --> 00:31:16,040 Speaker 1: you can go pretty far without with just those two 558 00:31:16,080 --> 00:31:20,120 Speaker 1: and not having to add anything brilliant to say, are these. 559 00:31:20,040 --> 00:31:24,840 Speaker 3: Specific questions that you ask? I guess nowadays that are 560 00:31:24,880 --> 00:31:28,360 Speaker 3: generally going to elicit something interesting or something deeper. 561 00:31:29,480 --> 00:31:32,200 Speaker 1: Yeah, well, going back to this, to the whole idea 562 00:31:32,200 --> 00:31:35,720 Speaker 1: of asking good questions, I have a whole chapter in 563 00:31:36,160 --> 00:31:39,240 Speaker 1: I guess it's my last book about the shift from 564 00:31:39,400 --> 00:31:42,440 Speaker 1: answers to questions. How you know machines if you I mean, 565 00:31:42,480 --> 00:31:45,320 Speaker 1: basically it's reduced. If you want a really good answer, 566 00:31:45,360 --> 00:31:48,480 Speaker 1: you'll ask a machine like good Google or a serie 567 00:31:48,560 --> 00:31:51,520 Speaker 1: or an AI. If you want a good question, you 568 00:31:51,560 --> 00:31:54,960 Speaker 1: want to hire a human. And hopefully we're going to 569 00:31:55,000 --> 00:31:57,440 Speaker 1: be trained to ask good questions and we can talk 570 00:31:57,480 --> 00:32:00,120 Speaker 1: about what makes a good question. But a lot of 571 00:32:00,520 --> 00:32:04,560 Speaker 1: a good question is an honest question, meaning you don't 572 00:32:04,600 --> 00:32:06,560 Speaker 1: know what the answer is, you don't know where it's 573 00:32:06,560 --> 00:32:10,400 Speaker 1: going to go. But I found in my conversations with 574 00:32:10,600 --> 00:32:15,280 Speaker 1: people that I really respect, who's who's thinking is lateral, 575 00:32:15,480 --> 00:32:20,320 Speaker 1: is that there is there's a little bit of a 576 00:32:20,400 --> 00:32:22,400 Speaker 1: I don't know, I would call it a hack or 577 00:32:22,400 --> 00:32:28,560 Speaker 1: a trick or something, a strategy of asking a question 578 00:32:30,000 --> 00:32:33,520 Speaker 1: where you I'm trying to articulate this, it's it's your 579 00:32:33,600 --> 00:32:42,720 Speaker 1: your sort of You're you're asking it kind of from 580 00:32:42,760 --> 00:32:49,800 Speaker 1: outside the usual assumptions or almost like a Martian or 581 00:32:52,240 --> 00:32:56,800 Speaker 1: you know, you're asking it from a position where it 582 00:32:56,920 --> 00:33:01,600 Speaker 1: could be considered a dumb question because you kind of 583 00:33:01,640 --> 00:33:08,360 Speaker 1: have sidestepped what everybody knows. And that's always risky because 584 00:33:08,760 --> 00:33:11,080 Speaker 1: it could sound dumb because everybody knows this, but you're 585 00:33:11,160 --> 00:33:14,920 Speaker 1: kind of asking it anyway. And if you take the 586 00:33:15,080 --> 00:33:17,760 Speaker 1: right step to the side of that, you can ask 587 00:33:17,800 --> 00:33:21,880 Speaker 1: a question that it's interesting and not everybody knows, but 588 00:33:21,880 --> 00:33:25,120 Speaker 1: it doesn't sound dumb. And so when I'm doing interviews 589 00:33:25,200 --> 00:33:28,000 Speaker 1: or stuff and trying to have interesting conversation, I will 590 00:33:30,480 --> 00:33:34,720 Speaker 1: try coming sideways as another kind of way to think 591 00:33:34,760 --> 00:33:40,840 Speaker 1: about that, where you are bypassing some of the assumptions, 592 00:33:41,840 --> 00:33:46,040 Speaker 1: or maybe you're questioning the assumptions. Both of those could work. 593 00:33:46,680 --> 00:33:49,880 Speaker 1: So it's kind of like Brian Youenicole's oblique strategies, where 594 00:33:49,880 --> 00:33:55,600 Speaker 1: you're coming obliquely at an angle and it has something 595 00:33:55,600 --> 00:34:03,160 Speaker 1: to do about surrendering or ignoring conventions in some ways, 596 00:34:03,640 --> 00:34:08,600 Speaker 1: and again it risks being a stupid, silly question, but 597 00:34:08,640 --> 00:34:10,960 Speaker 1: that's that's the price. 598 00:34:12,760 --> 00:34:15,680 Speaker 3: The other thing that I really liked in the sixty 599 00:34:15,680 --> 00:34:18,120 Speaker 3: eight bits of un Solicit Advice that really resonated with 600 00:34:18,160 --> 00:34:20,560 Speaker 3: me is that you say being enthusiastic is worth twenty 601 00:34:20,600 --> 00:34:23,919 Speaker 3: five IQ points. And I love that I'd been given 602 00:34:23,920 --> 00:34:26,799 Speaker 3: the advice many years ago that you can't train attitude, 603 00:34:26,880 --> 00:34:30,160 Speaker 3: which kind of reminds me of that. And I want 604 00:34:30,200 --> 00:34:32,480 Speaker 3: to know how do you make decisions about who to 605 00:34:32,680 --> 00:34:35,560 Speaker 3: collaborate with or who to recruit into projects that you're 606 00:34:35,600 --> 00:34:36,080 Speaker 3: working on. 607 00:34:37,320 --> 00:34:40,399 Speaker 1: I wish i'd collaborated even more than I do. I'm 608 00:34:40,560 --> 00:34:43,359 Speaker 1: very content to be a loaner or solo. I really 609 00:34:43,400 --> 00:34:46,120 Speaker 1: a loner. I'm surrounded by people, but being a solo 610 00:34:46,280 --> 00:34:51,799 Speaker 1: act I am okay with. One of the first things 611 00:34:51,800 --> 00:34:54,240 Speaker 1: I did when I left Wired and had the means 612 00:34:54,280 --> 00:34:57,319 Speaker 1: to was, you know, rather than buy a new house 613 00:34:57,400 --> 00:35:00,840 Speaker 1: or new cars, I said, I want a full time 614 00:35:01,560 --> 00:35:06,760 Speaker 1: personal research assistant. And that has changed my life forever. 615 00:35:08,000 --> 00:35:16,480 Speaker 1: Having somebody who is on hand to do research, do assistance, 616 00:35:17,440 --> 00:35:21,960 Speaker 1: do scheduling, do the you know, the book keeping I 617 00:35:21,960 --> 00:35:24,759 Speaker 1: don't want to do do do anything. That was like 618 00:35:26,000 --> 00:35:29,520 Speaker 1: so collaborating with that person, having that person on a team, 619 00:35:29,640 --> 00:35:32,920 Speaker 1: working together, and now I have more than one person 620 00:35:33,200 --> 00:35:36,759 Speaker 1: helping just maybe I don't know, ten times fifty times 621 00:35:36,800 --> 00:35:40,880 Speaker 1: as productive again, give me my really bad work habits. 622 00:35:41,360 --> 00:35:43,680 Speaker 1: Just having someone help me be accountable to keep me 623 00:35:43,719 --> 00:35:47,120 Speaker 1: busy in the right direction. Maybe that's actually that's probably 624 00:35:47,160 --> 00:35:48,759 Speaker 1: part of the answer to my work habits is that 625 00:35:48,800 --> 00:35:52,400 Speaker 1: I have an assistant, and therefore I have to be 626 00:35:53,880 --> 00:35:56,719 Speaker 1: more responsible and the jobs that I get lined up 627 00:35:56,760 --> 00:35:59,000 Speaker 1: and do, and so that kind of maybe forces me 628 00:35:59,040 --> 00:36:01,080 Speaker 1: to a little bit more order and structure into it 629 00:36:01,080 --> 00:36:03,840 Speaker 1: because I have an assistant. But still I'm kind of 630 00:36:03,880 --> 00:36:07,800 Speaker 1: like more like a solo performer rather than a big band. 631 00:36:08,239 --> 00:36:09,960 Speaker 1: Wired was a big band and it was really a 632 00:36:09,960 --> 00:36:12,600 Speaker 1: lot of fun. Wholw Earth was a big band. I 633 00:36:12,680 --> 00:36:16,840 Speaker 1: kind of miss that kind of collaboration with a big band. 634 00:36:16,920 --> 00:36:19,359 Speaker 1: I've done a couple other projects where there was more 635 00:36:19,400 --> 00:36:22,960 Speaker 1: than one person involved in I miss that I should 636 00:36:22,960 --> 00:36:25,960 Speaker 1: be doing more of it. But that's the question I 637 00:36:26,040 --> 00:36:28,120 Speaker 1: keep asking myself. Okay, you know, now that I'm sixty 638 00:36:28,160 --> 00:36:30,040 Speaker 1: eight and a half, what do I want to do 639 00:36:30,040 --> 00:36:32,759 Speaker 1: when I grow up? And do I want to, you know, 640 00:36:33,160 --> 00:36:38,840 Speaker 1: still work with a duet a small solo performers or 641 00:36:38,840 --> 00:36:41,920 Speaker 1: do I want to have a band again? And there 642 00:36:41,960 --> 00:36:43,840 Speaker 1: are plus and minuses on both of them, but I 643 00:36:44,120 --> 00:36:49,200 Speaker 1: am feeling that I should collaborate more. And then to 644 00:36:49,239 --> 00:36:52,360 Speaker 1: answer your question of how do I decide? Well, Number 645 00:36:52,360 --> 00:36:56,239 Speaker 1: one for me is do I really enjoy spending a 646 00:36:56,320 --> 00:36:59,640 Speaker 1: lot of time with these other person or persons because 647 00:37:00,400 --> 00:37:02,080 Speaker 1: we're going to spend a lot of time with them, 648 00:37:02,520 --> 00:37:09,280 Speaker 1: and so that you know, compatibility friendly thing is hugely important. 649 00:37:09,280 --> 00:37:11,360 Speaker 1: And I just simply don't work with people that I 650 00:37:11,400 --> 00:37:11,839 Speaker 1: don't like. 651 00:37:11,920 --> 00:37:12,359 Speaker 2: It's like. 652 00:37:14,000 --> 00:37:18,520 Speaker 1: No amount of talent is enough for me. Life is 653 00:37:18,560 --> 00:37:24,080 Speaker 1: way too short. So I tend to want to work 654 00:37:24,080 --> 00:37:28,000 Speaker 1: with people that want to be around with and hopefully 655 00:37:28,040 --> 00:37:30,960 Speaker 1: they're smarter than me, and they're always more talented than me, 656 00:37:31,040 --> 00:37:32,000 Speaker 1: and that makes it fun. 657 00:37:32,840 --> 00:37:34,800 Speaker 3: What else did you think about, like when you're recruiting 658 00:37:34,840 --> 00:37:38,239 Speaker 3: your personal research assistant or assistance. 659 00:37:39,880 --> 00:37:42,160 Speaker 1: Well, I one of the things I did when I 660 00:37:42,200 --> 00:37:47,320 Speaker 1: was evaluating them was I gave them and actually paid 661 00:37:47,360 --> 00:37:49,520 Speaker 1: for real work that would be the type that they 662 00:37:49,520 --> 00:37:54,960 Speaker 1: would be doing, so we could evaluate their work. And 663 00:37:55,400 --> 00:37:58,680 Speaker 1: to something you said, which is we're hiring for attitude, 664 00:37:59,480 --> 00:38:04,120 Speaker 1: not for skills. That was the motto at Wired, hire 665 00:38:04,160 --> 00:38:06,960 Speaker 1: for attitude, training for skills, because like we were inventing 666 00:38:07,000 --> 00:38:12,080 Speaker 1: the web, there's nobody at any experience and designing your 667 00:38:12,080 --> 00:38:15,160 Speaker 1: programming the web because we were inventing it. It didn't exist, 668 00:38:15,640 --> 00:38:18,560 Speaker 1: So the only thing we could really hire for was 669 00:38:19,000 --> 00:38:23,319 Speaker 1: attitude skill, I mean attitude and character and things like that. 670 00:38:23,400 --> 00:38:25,319 Speaker 1: And so that's sort of what I really look for. 671 00:38:25,400 --> 00:38:29,520 Speaker 1: I'd like to go for a long walk with the 672 00:38:29,560 --> 00:38:34,440 Speaker 1: candidates and you know, two things to work with him, 673 00:38:34,480 --> 00:38:38,600 Speaker 1: to do work, have him do something with us for us, 674 00:38:38,640 --> 00:38:42,880 Speaker 1: and that's work. And then two take a long walk 675 00:38:43,040 --> 00:38:47,520 Speaker 1: with them and just you know, try to get a 676 00:38:47,520 --> 00:38:49,839 Speaker 1: beat on their character. And that covers it. 677 00:38:50,760 --> 00:38:52,480 Speaker 3: What are you talking about on that walk? What are 678 00:38:52,480 --> 00:38:54,080 Speaker 3: some of the questions that you're asking. 679 00:38:53,880 --> 00:38:55,400 Speaker 2: Well, anything except for work. 680 00:38:56,239 --> 00:38:58,160 Speaker 1: With their hobbies are how they how they spend a 681 00:38:58,200 --> 00:39:02,000 Speaker 1: free time, cosmological question, uestions, what's your favorite movie? Just 682 00:39:02,960 --> 00:39:05,200 Speaker 1: anything except for the work. 683 00:39:06,200 --> 00:39:07,839 Speaker 4: M Yeah, I like that. 684 00:39:07,840 --> 00:39:10,640 Speaker 3: That sounds that's an interesting thing that I feel like 685 00:39:10,719 --> 00:39:14,600 Speaker 3: so few people do when they're recruiting new people into 686 00:39:14,680 --> 00:39:16,000 Speaker 3: a team. 687 00:39:16,400 --> 00:39:17,360 Speaker 2: Yeah, it's. 688 00:39:18,880 --> 00:39:26,400 Speaker 1: I guess the older I get, the more important. And 689 00:39:26,480 --> 00:39:28,400 Speaker 1: this probably goes to one of the bits of advice 690 00:39:28,719 --> 00:39:31,880 Speaker 1: about you attending funerals, the more important it is to 691 00:39:31,920 --> 00:39:38,440 Speaker 1: me for the character. I'm using it loosely of people 692 00:39:38,600 --> 00:39:43,799 Speaker 1: as we work, because in a certain sense, it's not 693 00:39:43,840 --> 00:39:47,879 Speaker 1: that hard to make things. It's it's hard to make 694 00:39:47,960 --> 00:39:54,120 Speaker 1: things really really great, and there I find that extra 695 00:39:54,880 --> 00:39:56,920 Speaker 1: ten percent or extra one hundred percent, whatever it is. 696 00:39:57,719 --> 00:40:01,040 Speaker 1: It really does come down to character and enjoying the 697 00:40:01,120 --> 00:40:04,160 Speaker 1: time that you're working with other people because you're going 698 00:40:04,200 --> 00:40:06,120 Speaker 1: to be in overtime and having to work hard, and 699 00:40:06,160 --> 00:40:11,279 Speaker 1: so it wants to be for with people that you 700 00:40:11,760 --> 00:40:16,920 Speaker 1: respect and admire, and those kind of things are to 701 00:40:17,000 --> 00:40:22,360 Speaker 1: me crucial. I think money, even lots of money, is 702 00:40:22,440 --> 00:40:29,200 Speaker 1: way overrated, and making money is sort of actually not difficult, 703 00:40:29,320 --> 00:40:34,080 Speaker 1: but making something that you're proud of and doing it 704 00:40:34,120 --> 00:40:39,920 Speaker 1: better each time is difficult. And so the character, the 705 00:40:40,680 --> 00:40:45,040 Speaker 1: experience that we have, the human relationships that we have, 706 00:40:45,080 --> 00:40:47,279 Speaker 1: all we're doing it to me become more and more 707 00:40:47,280 --> 00:40:54,479 Speaker 1: important than just the achievement of At the end. It's 708 00:40:54,560 --> 00:40:56,360 Speaker 1: kind of like, you know, the old thing about the 709 00:40:56,480 --> 00:41:00,640 Speaker 1: journey is more impressive, more important than the destiny, you know, 710 00:41:00,760 --> 00:41:04,160 Speaker 1: like thinking back to Wired or whatever. We're very proud 711 00:41:04,160 --> 00:41:06,120 Speaker 1: of those issues, but I have to tell you some 712 00:41:06,160 --> 00:41:10,320 Speaker 1: of those issues I've completely forgotten even what we said, 713 00:41:10,760 --> 00:41:14,920 Speaker 1: but I have not forgotten the people and the interactions 714 00:41:15,320 --> 00:41:17,239 Speaker 1: that we had while we were doing it. 715 00:41:17,480 --> 00:41:20,319 Speaker 3: I love that now in the final few minutes that 716 00:41:20,360 --> 00:41:23,080 Speaker 3: we have, I want to get like a quick read 717 00:41:23,320 --> 00:41:27,880 Speaker 3: on what are your favorite gadgets and tools and software 718 00:41:27,920 --> 00:41:30,080 Speaker 3: that have brought you the most joy. And I also 719 00:41:30,120 --> 00:41:32,920 Speaker 3: want to know from a health perspective, because you obviously 720 00:41:32,960 --> 00:41:35,160 Speaker 3: coined the term quantified self. I think it was back 721 00:41:35,200 --> 00:41:37,960 Speaker 3: in two thousand and seven with Gary Wolf and I'm 722 00:41:38,000 --> 00:41:39,719 Speaker 3: a massive nerd when it comes to that. I think 723 00:41:39,719 --> 00:41:42,200 Speaker 3: probably the nerdiest thing I've done is like prick my 724 00:41:42,239 --> 00:41:45,319 Speaker 3: fingers every half an hour to test blood glue cooaster responses. 725 00:41:45,960 --> 00:41:48,880 Speaker 3: There's a workaround because I couldn't get Day one. I 726 00:41:48,880 --> 00:41:51,640 Speaker 3: don't know if you're familiar with Day one from Israel, 727 00:41:51,680 --> 00:41:54,520 Speaker 3: who actually have algorithms that can calculate your blood glucose 728 00:41:54,560 --> 00:41:57,640 Speaker 3: response to certain foods, but being in Australia, couldn't access that, 729 00:41:57,719 --> 00:41:58,600 Speaker 3: so finger precking. 730 00:41:58,880 --> 00:42:02,560 Speaker 4: But let's maybe start with health. What are the best tools. 731 00:42:02,280 --> 00:42:06,160 Speaker 3: Or gadgets or software that you're currently using, I guess 732 00:42:05,920 --> 00:42:08,400 Speaker 3: to improve your health or have a healthy life. 733 00:42:08,760 --> 00:42:11,200 Speaker 1: You know, despite the fact that I've was one of 734 00:42:11,200 --> 00:42:13,160 Speaker 1: the co founders of the quantifyself and I've had the 735 00:42:13,200 --> 00:42:15,840 Speaker 1: habit of wearing the fitbit the early versions of it 736 00:42:15,920 --> 00:42:17,920 Speaker 1: all the time, and have gone through a number of 737 00:42:17,960 --> 00:42:22,000 Speaker 1: other of those. Right now, I am not using the 738 00:42:22,040 --> 00:42:26,799 Speaker 1: technology to track. Part of my thing is that overall 739 00:42:28,440 --> 00:42:30,239 Speaker 1: my health has been so good. I don't take any 740 00:42:30,320 --> 00:42:33,080 Speaker 1: pills at all of any sort, not even vitamins. I 741 00:42:33,160 --> 00:42:37,040 Speaker 1: just I'm just kind of ghosting. I guess I don't 742 00:42:37,040 --> 00:42:42,439 Speaker 1: know what the word is, but I don't pay too 743 00:42:42,480 --> 00:42:46,680 Speaker 1: much attention to my health, for better or worse. I 744 00:42:47,000 --> 00:42:50,640 Speaker 1: walk and hike every day and still ride my bikes. 745 00:42:50,680 --> 00:42:52,360 Speaker 2: But I just am. 746 00:42:52,280 --> 00:42:58,880 Speaker 1: Bored by health, and I'm fortunate to be able to 747 00:42:58,920 --> 00:42:59,600 Speaker 1: say that. 748 00:43:00,280 --> 00:43:03,480 Speaker 3: Generally, Like, what are some gadgets or tools or software 749 00:43:04,000 --> 00:43:07,800 Speaker 3: that maybe have brought you the most joy or even productivity, 750 00:43:07,960 --> 00:43:10,600 Speaker 3: like in you know, in other parts of your life. 751 00:43:11,080 --> 00:43:14,520 Speaker 1: So joy, yeah, joy is that that? That's a good 752 00:43:14,880 --> 00:43:17,759 Speaker 1: That's a good way to phrase it, Like things that 753 00:43:17,840 --> 00:43:24,000 Speaker 1: bring me joy. So I carry in my pocket right 754 00:43:24,120 --> 00:43:28,040 Speaker 1: this moment, my shorts here. I have a ninety nine 755 00:43:28,040 --> 00:43:33,640 Speaker 1: cent plastic box cutter. That is the one thing that 756 00:43:33,680 --> 00:43:37,200 Speaker 1: I carry even more than my phone. And even though 757 00:43:37,239 --> 00:43:40,239 Speaker 1: I have a desk job, I use this more than 758 00:43:40,280 --> 00:43:42,600 Speaker 1: you would ever imagine. Of course, I'm down at the 759 00:43:42,600 --> 00:43:45,759 Speaker 1: workshop and I'm doing all kinds of things. So it's 760 00:43:45,760 --> 00:43:49,800 Speaker 1: a knife, but it's a plastic knife, and I prefer 761 00:43:49,880 --> 00:43:52,319 Speaker 1: to anything else because it's very very light. It's made 762 00:43:52,360 --> 00:43:54,840 Speaker 1: out of plastic, and it's a box cutter worth a 763 00:43:54,880 --> 00:43:56,920 Speaker 1: snap so you sharpen up. I just snap and the 764 00:43:56,960 --> 00:44:00,600 Speaker 1: tip off, and I have one for every pair of 765 00:44:00,640 --> 00:44:05,919 Speaker 1: pants and they're just everywhere. And I use that more 766 00:44:05,960 --> 00:44:09,839 Speaker 1: than anything else, and I get a thrill out out 767 00:44:09,840 --> 00:44:13,359 Speaker 1: of using it, and it's it's and I don't care 768 00:44:13,400 --> 00:44:15,680 Speaker 1: if I lose it because it's ninety nine cents and 769 00:44:15,880 --> 00:44:19,160 Speaker 1: although but I don't often use it lose it. 770 00:44:19,760 --> 00:44:20,360 Speaker 2: Let's see. 771 00:44:20,920 --> 00:44:26,240 Speaker 1: I'm looking around my desk right now for other things 772 00:44:26,280 --> 00:44:31,399 Speaker 1: that are close at hand. I have a notebook. I'm 773 00:44:31,400 --> 00:44:36,920 Speaker 1: a big notebook user and believer. That's pen ink on 774 00:44:37,000 --> 00:44:41,239 Speaker 1: a nice stiff page. And I have a turn at 775 00:44:41,280 --> 00:44:45,320 Speaker 1: diversion to the Moleskins. It's called a Millennialism art book. 776 00:44:45,920 --> 00:44:49,080 Speaker 1: It's like half the price and brighter colored colors of 777 00:44:49,120 --> 00:44:54,880 Speaker 1: a big Moleskin book. And I fill those up with drawings, 778 00:44:55,560 --> 00:44:58,680 Speaker 1: sketches of stuff I'm working on. I'm when I write, 779 00:44:58,880 --> 00:44:59,840 Speaker 1: I'm a visual. 780 00:45:00,360 --> 00:45:00,960 Speaker 2: I like to. 781 00:45:01,120 --> 00:45:06,080 Speaker 1: Sketch out graph kind of when I'm trying to think. 782 00:45:06,880 --> 00:45:07,920 Speaker 2: Before I put into words. 783 00:45:08,920 --> 00:45:15,480 Speaker 1: So I use that and that brings me joy. Let's see, 784 00:45:16,880 --> 00:45:22,040 Speaker 1: we have a electric car that is not a Tesla. 785 00:45:23,040 --> 00:45:28,640 Speaker 1: I love electric cars. It's this is a cheap has 786 00:45:28,680 --> 00:45:30,319 Speaker 1: half the price of a Tesla at the time. 787 00:45:30,400 --> 00:45:32,400 Speaker 2: It's a GM Bolt. 788 00:45:32,440 --> 00:45:34,759 Speaker 1: It was the first American car we've ever bought, because 789 00:45:34,760 --> 00:45:40,319 Speaker 1: we've been Japanese Toyota people forever. But I have to 790 00:45:40,360 --> 00:45:45,080 Speaker 1: tell you it brings me joy. It's the best performance 791 00:45:45,560 --> 00:45:49,399 Speaker 1: car that I've ever been in. It's really remarkable. There's 792 00:45:49,520 --> 00:45:52,960 Speaker 1: so much power and torque, and we get it. It's 793 00:45:53,040 --> 00:45:55,120 Speaker 1: because the batteries are in the bottom. It really hugs 794 00:45:55,160 --> 00:45:59,000 Speaker 1: the road. It's just really really great. And my daughter 795 00:45:59,040 --> 00:46:02,120 Speaker 1: has a has a Tesla, and you know, electric cars are. 796 00:46:02,000 --> 00:46:03,800 Speaker 2: Just superior in every way. 797 00:46:04,360 --> 00:46:08,040 Speaker 1: And I think the switch to electric cars is going 798 00:46:08,120 --> 00:46:13,080 Speaker 1: to be fairly fast because they will soon become less 799 00:46:13,080 --> 00:46:16,200 Speaker 1: expensive than a regular car and they're twice as good. 800 00:46:17,120 --> 00:46:21,399 Speaker 1: And so that brings me joy. Get an electric car 801 00:46:21,440 --> 00:46:21,839 Speaker 1: if you can. 802 00:46:22,440 --> 00:46:24,720 Speaker 4: Oh, so, I'm loving all those recommendations. 803 00:46:25,440 --> 00:46:31,080 Speaker 2: Yeah, and so other apps. 804 00:46:33,440 --> 00:46:38,080 Speaker 1: Boy, I'm looking at my phone just so I have 805 00:46:38,120 --> 00:46:41,080 Speaker 1: a little tiny app that brings me joy. 806 00:46:41,640 --> 00:46:44,440 Speaker 2: I don't use it every day, but because I live. 807 00:46:46,080 --> 00:46:50,719 Speaker 1: Almost within sight of the ocean, the Pacific Ocean, I 808 00:46:50,800 --> 00:46:54,840 Speaker 1: have a tide app and the tide app tells me 809 00:46:55,520 --> 00:46:58,120 Speaker 1: what's tied, is whether it's high tied or low tide, 810 00:46:58,160 --> 00:47:00,160 Speaker 1: and when it's going to be low tide and when 811 00:47:00,160 --> 00:47:02,720 Speaker 1: it's gonna be high tight. And man, that has changed 812 00:47:02,760 --> 00:47:06,000 Speaker 1: my life because it's like, you know, there's tide charts, 813 00:47:06,040 --> 00:47:08,480 Speaker 1: but they were like, you know, they're just so already used. 814 00:47:08,520 --> 00:47:10,959 Speaker 1: But so anyway, whenever we're going out, it's like, okay, 815 00:47:11,120 --> 00:47:13,719 Speaker 1: it's a we can time it for low tight and 816 00:47:13,719 --> 00:47:16,920 Speaker 1: how low with the high B. So you know, it's like, 817 00:47:17,680 --> 00:47:22,360 Speaker 1: who would ever thought that, you know, the supercomputer that 818 00:47:22,400 --> 00:47:26,719 Speaker 1: you would carry around in your pocket, that it would 819 00:47:26,719 --> 00:47:29,520 Speaker 1: also be the tide chart as well as everything else. 820 00:47:30,960 --> 00:47:35,440 Speaker 1: So that's kind of what's it called. That's called tide 821 00:47:35,760 --> 00:47:38,680 Speaker 1: Track t R A C. It's I'm on an Apple 822 00:47:39,719 --> 00:47:42,759 Speaker 1: I phone. There's probably an equivalent somewhere. I'm not even 823 00:47:42,760 --> 00:47:44,920 Speaker 1: sure it's the best one, but it works for me. 824 00:47:46,640 --> 00:47:53,080 Speaker 1: So other kind of uh cool apps, you know, I 825 00:47:53,160 --> 00:47:58,440 Speaker 1: have to so, uh, there's another app here. It's called 826 00:47:58,680 --> 00:48:03,759 Speaker 1: seek See Hey, this is quite amazing. It is something 827 00:48:03,760 --> 00:48:05,160 Speaker 1: I've recommended and recommend it. 828 00:48:05,239 --> 00:48:06,879 Speaker 2: But what it is is an. 829 00:48:06,800 --> 00:48:13,160 Speaker 1: App that has the user camera and it identifies plants. 830 00:48:14,360 --> 00:48:16,719 Speaker 1: It tells you what the species is. You hold it 831 00:48:16,760 --> 00:48:19,120 Speaker 1: over and tells you this is what it is. It's 832 00:48:19,200 --> 00:48:22,920 Speaker 1: remarkably good. It's going and you need to have connected 833 00:48:22,960 --> 00:48:25,160 Speaker 1: service because going up to the cloud to do it. 834 00:48:26,520 --> 00:48:27,600 Speaker 2: But I have to. 835 00:48:27,600 --> 00:48:34,760 Speaker 1: Say, you know, I would say ninety percent, maybe ninety 836 00:48:34,840 --> 00:48:37,680 Speaker 1: ninety five percent of time it'll give me a species 837 00:48:38,280 --> 00:48:40,719 Speaker 1: for a tree or a plant or a grass or something. 838 00:48:40,760 --> 00:48:44,480 Speaker 1: You identify it. That's really cool for me because that 839 00:48:44,640 --> 00:48:47,439 Speaker 1: was forever My question is what is that? Okay, here 840 00:48:47,440 --> 00:48:49,439 Speaker 1: it is, that's what it is. It has a name. 841 00:48:49,640 --> 00:48:52,960 Speaker 1: I can read more about it. Maybe it's even edible. 842 00:48:53,239 --> 00:48:55,560 Speaker 1: So that's been a huge thing, and that kind of 843 00:48:55,560 --> 00:48:57,719 Speaker 1: thing won't get better over time, but even right now 844 00:48:57,760 --> 00:48:58,600 Speaker 1: it's pretty good. 845 00:48:59,280 --> 00:49:02,600 Speaker 4: That's awesome. That's also den with so out of time, Kevin. 846 00:49:02,680 --> 00:49:05,400 Speaker 3: My final question, if people want to consume more of 847 00:49:05,440 --> 00:49:07,560 Speaker 3: what you're putting out into the world, how can they 848 00:49:07,600 --> 00:49:07,880 Speaker 3: do this? 849 00:49:09,239 --> 00:49:13,480 Speaker 1: So we mentioned my newsletter Recommendo with one m and 850 00:49:14,000 --> 00:49:17,399 Speaker 1: it's free. It goes out every Sunday morning. You can 851 00:49:17,440 --> 00:49:21,040 Speaker 1: sign up at recommendo dot com. You can see back 852 00:49:21,080 --> 00:49:26,239 Speaker 1: issues if you want. And I also we do a 853 00:49:26,560 --> 00:49:31,000 Speaker 1: cool Tools podcast called Your Four Favorite Tools. We interview 854 00:49:31,000 --> 00:49:34,080 Speaker 1: people and ask them about four of their favorite tools. 855 00:49:35,080 --> 00:49:38,439 Speaker 1: We've been going on that for many years. Every week 856 00:49:38,640 --> 00:49:41,560 Speaker 1: that's there. We have a website called cool Tools, which 857 00:49:41,640 --> 00:49:46,560 Speaker 1: is one review or something equivalent of a new tool 858 00:49:46,719 --> 00:49:50,680 Speaker 1: every day. Sometimes we're from the podcast. And I have 859 00:49:50,719 --> 00:49:55,400 Speaker 1: a blog which is very intermittent called the Technium where 860 00:49:55,440 --> 00:49:59,600 Speaker 1: the sixty eight Bits of Advice appeared. And my newest 861 00:49:59,600 --> 00:50:03,600 Speaker 1: project is Vanishing Asia. We didn't get to talk about that, 862 00:50:03,719 --> 00:50:08,000 Speaker 1: but I spent forty years photographing in Asia all the 863 00:50:08,040 --> 00:50:13,360 Speaker 1: disappearing traditions and culture, and I put nine thousand of 864 00:50:13,440 --> 00:50:18,400 Speaker 1: the best pictures into this one huge, humongous, oversized, thousand 865 00:50:18,440 --> 00:50:22,640 Speaker 1: page book that is now being ready to be printed 866 00:50:23,480 --> 00:50:25,480 Speaker 1: but probably won't be out because of the COVID until 867 00:50:25,520 --> 00:50:29,279 Speaker 1: the end of twenty one. And in the meantime, I 868 00:50:29,320 --> 00:50:34,560 Speaker 1: have an instagram called Vanishing Asia where I issue and 869 00:50:34,719 --> 00:50:39,040 Speaker 1: caption one photograph a day from that series of a 870 00:50:39,160 --> 00:50:43,400 Speaker 1: world that has almost disappeared, but it's kind of disappearing 871 00:50:43,440 --> 00:50:47,840 Speaker 1: right now in Asia. Between Turkey and Japan, most of 872 00:50:48,120 --> 00:50:51,399 Speaker 1: every of the countries, including in the midiest that I've 873 00:50:51,440 --> 00:51:02,120 Speaker 1: been documenting these disappearing textures, festivals, costumes, architecture, and the 874 00:51:02,200 --> 00:51:05,560 Speaker 1: scenes from Long Ago Amazing. 875 00:51:05,680 --> 00:51:08,240 Speaker 4: I will link to all of that in the show notes. 876 00:51:08,400 --> 00:51:11,480 Speaker 3: Kevin, it's been an absolute joy talking to you. 877 00:51:11,640 --> 00:51:13,360 Speaker 4: Thank you so much for your time. 878 00:51:14,160 --> 00:51:17,480 Speaker 1: It's been a real joy myself. I appreciated you asking 879 00:51:17,600 --> 00:51:20,720 Speaker 1: questions I haven't been asked before. That's always a pleasure. 880 00:51:21,160 --> 00:51:24,720 Speaker 1: Thank you for that. And I appreciate this moment. 881 00:51:26,080 --> 00:51:28,080 Speaker 4: That is it for today's show. 882 00:51:28,160 --> 00:51:30,719 Speaker 3: If you liked my chat with Kevin, why not share 883 00:51:30,760 --> 00:51:33,319 Speaker 3: it with somebody else that you think would enjoy it, 884 00:51:33,440 --> 00:51:36,640 Speaker 3: or maybe posted on social media, whatever you like. I'm very, 885 00:51:36,719 --> 00:51:39,759 Speaker 3: very grateful for everyone that spreads the word about how 886 00:51:39,800 --> 00:51:41,279 Speaker 3: I work. I feel like there are quite a lot 887 00:51:41,280 --> 00:51:43,560 Speaker 3: of you out there doing that, so thank you so much. 888 00:51:43,680 --> 00:51:48,399 Speaker 3: It's so deeply, deeply appreciated. And if you are in 889 00:51:48,440 --> 00:51:50,319 Speaker 3: the mood to leave a review for how I work 890 00:51:50,400 --> 00:51:52,759 Speaker 3: in Apple Podcasts or wherever you're listening to this too, 891 00:51:53,080 --> 00:51:53,880 Speaker 3: that'd be awesome. 892 00:51:53,960 --> 00:51:56,319 Speaker 4: Thank you to the hundreds of people that have done that. 893 00:51:56,840 --> 00:52:00,400 Speaker 3: It's so nice getting feedback on my work, so thank you, 894 00:52:00,719 --> 00:52:02,759 Speaker 3: thank you. So that is it for today's show and 895 00:52:02,840 --> 00:52:04,200 Speaker 3: I will see you next time.