1 00:00:00,360 --> 00:00:02,480 Speaker 1: I am on a little break for a few weeks, 2 00:00:02,480 --> 00:00:05,560 Speaker 1: so I'm re releasing some of my favorite episodes from 3 00:00:05,600 --> 00:00:08,680 Speaker 1: the last twelve months. I will be back with brand 4 00:00:08,720 --> 00:00:12,440 Speaker 1: new interviews from July thirty one, and until then, enjoy 5 00:00:12,560 --> 00:00:18,319 Speaker 1: today's chat. Do difficult workplace conversations terrify you to the 6 00:00:18,400 --> 00:00:21,599 Speaker 1: idea of having to tell a colleague something they won't 7 00:00:21,840 --> 00:00:23,720 Speaker 1: like make you just want to pack up for the 8 00:00:23,760 --> 00:00:27,560 Speaker 1: day and go home instead. If that's the case, then 9 00:00:27,680 --> 00:00:32,000 Speaker 1: Dom Price might have the mindset, flip and strategies that 10 00:00:32,080 --> 00:00:36,960 Speaker 1: you need to approach these conversations with enthusiasm instead of trepidation. 11 00:00:38,040 --> 00:00:41,200 Speaker 1: I'm very excited to have Dom back on the show 12 00:00:41,280 --> 00:00:44,159 Speaker 1: once again to get to the bottom of what seems 13 00:00:44,159 --> 00:00:47,280 Speaker 1: to be a real problem in a lot of workplaces. 14 00:00:48,080 --> 00:00:51,960 Speaker 1: Dom is the resident work futurist at Atlasion, one of 15 00:00:52,000 --> 00:00:55,640 Speaker 1: the largest software companies in the world, and has responsibilities 16 00:00:55,680 --> 00:01:00,480 Speaker 1: spanning seven global R and D centers. Want to talk 17 00:01:00,520 --> 00:01:04,640 Speaker 1: to Don about having difficult conversations at work, and was 18 00:01:04,720 --> 00:01:08,319 Speaker 1: honestly surprised by some of the insights he shared. In 19 00:01:08,360 --> 00:01:11,440 Speaker 1: this episode, we discussed the common thing many of us 20 00:01:11,520 --> 00:01:15,160 Speaker 1: do that makes these conversations more difficult than they need 21 00:01:15,200 --> 00:01:18,280 Speaker 1: to be the simple thing he says, we'll make these 22 00:01:18,280 --> 00:01:22,880 Speaker 1: conversations even easier, and the unique way he prepares for 23 00:01:23,000 --> 00:01:32,959 Speaker 1: difficult conversations that many of us don't do. Welcome to 24 00:01:33,040 --> 00:01:36,920 Speaker 1: how I work a show about habits, rituals, and strategies 25 00:01:37,000 --> 00:01:40,839 Speaker 1: for optimizing your day. I'm your host, doctor Amantha Imber. 26 00:01:41,560 --> 00:01:44,400 Speaker 1: It seems like in the past six months, every second 27 00:01:44,400 --> 00:01:47,360 Speaker 1: conversation I have with a client at invent Him is 28 00:01:47,400 --> 00:01:51,600 Speaker 1: about how their organization's culture is overly positive and no 29 00:01:51,680 --> 00:01:56,720 Speaker 1: one actually feels comfortable having challenging conversations and driving accountability. 30 00:01:57,400 --> 00:02:00,400 Speaker 1: What I wanted to know, is this just in my 31 00:02:00,560 --> 00:02:03,440 Speaker 1: sphere of experience, or is this something that John has 32 00:02:03,560 --> 00:02:04,520 Speaker 1: noticed as well. 33 00:02:08,680 --> 00:02:11,880 Speaker 2: There's a conversation with someone from Inventing that I was 34 00:02:11,919 --> 00:02:15,000 Speaker 2: having right about this, like the cancel culture has reached 35 00:02:15,000 --> 00:02:17,880 Speaker 2: the workplace, and I was like, oh, and I don't 36 00:02:17,919 --> 00:02:19,880 Speaker 2: think I've been aware of it, which probably makes sense. 37 00:02:19,919 --> 00:02:22,680 Speaker 2: I'm a middle aged white guy with privilege, right, so 38 00:02:23,440 --> 00:02:25,640 Speaker 2: I'm securing my role. Right, I've been at the company 39 00:02:25,680 --> 00:02:28,320 Speaker 2: for eleven years. I Am not worrying about where the 40 00:02:28,400 --> 00:02:30,440 Speaker 2: next meal comes from. Right, So I'm in a position 41 00:02:30,440 --> 00:02:33,440 Speaker 2: where I just have to admit my privilege. It's easier 42 00:02:33,480 --> 00:02:36,480 Speaker 2: for me to speak up and have that conversation. But 43 00:02:36,560 --> 00:02:39,639 Speaker 2: when they mentioned the cancel culture, I'm like, I suddenly 44 00:02:39,680 --> 00:02:41,120 Speaker 2: turned a different lens on it, and I put it 45 00:02:41,320 --> 00:02:43,440 Speaker 2: on myself, and I was like, where have I filtered? 46 00:02:43,720 --> 00:02:47,080 Speaker 2: Where have I not spoken up? And I actually suddenly 47 00:02:47,120 --> 00:02:49,520 Speaker 2: found a list and there was a list. But I 48 00:02:49,520 --> 00:02:53,320 Speaker 2: was like, oh, there's times when, if all things were equal, 49 00:02:53,360 --> 00:02:56,040 Speaker 2: I probably should have spoken up and said something. But 50 00:02:56,160 --> 00:02:58,000 Speaker 2: I did the thing that I tell everyone else not 51 00:02:58,080 --> 00:03:00,320 Speaker 2: to do, which is, you know, I just someone hustle, 52 00:03:00,400 --> 00:03:03,600 Speaker 2: do it it's fine, or they know they're self aware, 53 00:03:03,800 --> 00:03:05,680 Speaker 2: they don't need me, or now it's not a good time, 54 00:03:06,040 --> 00:03:08,280 Speaker 2: I'll do it next time, right, And so I did 55 00:03:08,480 --> 00:03:11,960 Speaker 2: all the rationalization that we all have kicks in every 56 00:03:12,040 --> 00:03:14,360 Speaker 2: now and then. And if I look back, it's because 57 00:03:14,400 --> 00:03:18,000 Speaker 2: I sensed right. It's a sense and a belief that 58 00:03:18,040 --> 00:03:21,280 Speaker 2: the consequences were too high, so it wasn't worth it. 59 00:03:21,360 --> 00:03:23,560 Speaker 1: So can you give me any example of where you 60 00:03:23,639 --> 00:03:28,000 Speaker 1: did hold back and what the consequences were in your mind, 61 00:03:28,040 --> 00:03:31,000 Speaker 1: whether that be real or perceived consequences. 62 00:03:31,240 --> 00:03:33,880 Speaker 2: So there was there was a specific workshop that was 63 00:03:33,919 --> 00:03:36,760 Speaker 2: the very first memory that triggered me, right, and I 64 00:03:36,760 --> 00:03:39,640 Speaker 2: remember sitting there and thinking it was going off track, 65 00:03:39,680 --> 00:03:42,839 Speaker 2: probably like midway through the first morning, and in my head, 66 00:03:42,840 --> 00:03:45,520 Speaker 2: and this is a fascinating thing about this topic. It's 67 00:03:45,560 --> 00:03:48,120 Speaker 2: the voice in the head, which me and you know 68 00:03:48,360 --> 00:03:52,440 Speaker 2: is highly irrational, very mean, and quite cutting. Right, it's 69 00:03:52,440 --> 00:03:54,280 Speaker 2: not a supportive at all. But the voice in the 70 00:03:54,320 --> 00:03:56,440 Speaker 2: head is saying, if you speak up now, you know 71 00:03:56,480 --> 00:03:59,080 Speaker 2: how you're going to be perceived. It's you again, you 72 00:03:59,120 --> 00:04:01,840 Speaker 2: doing that thing you do. And so I'm having a 73 00:04:01,880 --> 00:04:04,200 Speaker 2: whole chat in my head. And the net result of 74 00:04:04,240 --> 00:04:08,000 Speaker 2: that chat was don't speak up right, let the workshop 75 00:04:08,080 --> 00:04:10,200 Speaker 2: run its course. Now I think I was half right 76 00:04:10,240 --> 00:04:12,600 Speaker 2: and half wrong. I needed to let it run a 77 00:04:12,640 --> 00:04:15,559 Speaker 2: little bit and maybe I could navigate or be suggestive. 78 00:04:15,920 --> 00:04:17,720 Speaker 2: I didn't need to bang the table and go, this 79 00:04:17,800 --> 00:04:19,600 Speaker 2: is a complete waste of time. Now, you're all idiots. 80 00:04:19,640 --> 00:04:22,120 Speaker 2: I started going to That's not what I was suggesting, 81 00:04:22,760 --> 00:04:28,200 Speaker 2: but I misconstrued how my words would be interpreted so 82 00:04:28,440 --> 00:04:31,040 Speaker 2: much that it was safer not to say anything and 83 00:04:31,240 --> 00:04:34,440 Speaker 2: hope that the workshop works itself out, which again me 84 00:04:34,480 --> 00:04:37,720 Speaker 2: and you know, very rarely happens. Right, You don't cause correct, 85 00:04:37,720 --> 00:04:40,400 Speaker 2: well by accident, you course correct on purpose. So I 86 00:04:40,480 --> 00:04:42,720 Speaker 2: end up waiting till the end of the first day. 87 00:04:43,040 --> 00:04:45,039 Speaker 2: When I had a moment with the person facilitating, I 88 00:04:45,040 --> 00:04:46,800 Speaker 2: was like hey, and they're like, I, how do you 89 00:04:46,839 --> 00:04:49,920 Speaker 2: think it's going really good? Right? I was like, ah, 90 00:04:50,200 --> 00:04:53,479 Speaker 2: not great, And so I finally got the confidence up 91 00:04:53,520 --> 00:04:56,440 Speaker 2: to say something, and the look of horror on their 92 00:04:56,480 --> 00:04:59,400 Speaker 2: face and the only words they said, by which destroyed me. 93 00:04:59,600 --> 00:05:02,120 Speaker 2: They were like, I just wish you'd said something earlier 94 00:05:02,400 --> 00:05:04,680 Speaker 2: and I could have done something, And I was like, 95 00:05:05,320 --> 00:05:06,760 Speaker 2: oh no. 96 00:05:08,160 --> 00:05:12,640 Speaker 1: Not having the difficult conversation has massive consequences. So I 97 00:05:12,680 --> 00:05:17,200 Speaker 1: want to ask, why is this happening so much now? 98 00:05:17,320 --> 00:05:19,880 Speaker 1: Why was I not hearing and maybe you weren't hearing 99 00:05:20,040 --> 00:05:22,560 Speaker 1: back in twenty twenty three, because we're recording this in 100 00:05:22,600 --> 00:05:26,320 Speaker 1: October twenty twenty four. What is happening now that is 101 00:05:26,360 --> 00:05:28,800 Speaker 1: making this so hard to have these conversations. 102 00:05:29,040 --> 00:05:32,480 Speaker 2: I think there's a few DYNAMICXIT player. I think just generally, 103 00:05:32,560 --> 00:05:37,800 Speaker 2: we've spent so long talking about psychological safety that we've 104 00:05:37,839 --> 00:05:40,479 Speaker 2: not realized it's a set of actions, it's not a 105 00:05:40,520 --> 00:05:43,039 Speaker 2: set of words. So I think that's and I've seen 106 00:05:43,040 --> 00:05:45,640 Speaker 2: that play out right, And I know we spoke about 107 00:05:45,640 --> 00:05:48,000 Speaker 2: this before I seen it in saying you know, we're 108 00:05:48,000 --> 00:05:50,000 Speaker 2: in a safe space, and you're like, you know, you 109 00:05:50,000 --> 00:05:52,080 Speaker 2: don't get to say that and create it, right, It's 110 00:05:52,080 --> 00:05:53,760 Speaker 2: how I feel, not the words to come out of 111 00:05:53,800 --> 00:05:56,400 Speaker 2: your mouth. Right, So yeah, a bit of a like 112 00:05:56,480 --> 00:05:59,720 Speaker 2: red flag number one. I think psychological safety is a 113 00:05:59,800 --> 00:06:02,640 Speaker 2: term is banded around, but probably not that well understood 114 00:06:02,640 --> 00:06:04,680 Speaker 2: in terms of the actions you take to create it. 115 00:06:05,200 --> 00:06:07,880 Speaker 2: I also think, like in all honesty, I think we're 116 00:06:07,880 --> 00:06:09,680 Speaker 2: still building the muscle of how to work in a 117 00:06:09,680 --> 00:06:12,200 Speaker 2: distributed world. I don't think it's entirely natural for many 118 00:06:12,240 --> 00:06:14,960 Speaker 2: of us. Right, I'm forty six years old, So if 119 00:06:14,960 --> 00:06:16,479 Speaker 2: you think, like when the pandemic hit, I was like 120 00:06:16,560 --> 00:06:19,800 Speaker 2: forty one. So I'd worked for twenty one years in 121 00:06:19,839 --> 00:06:24,159 Speaker 2: predominantly office environments, right, always in multinational organizations around the world. 122 00:06:24,440 --> 00:06:26,600 Speaker 2: But I had a desk and an office and a screen, right, 123 00:06:26,640 --> 00:06:28,640 Speaker 2: and that was the mechanism of work. And for the 124 00:06:28,720 --> 00:06:30,839 Speaker 2: last sort of four years that's not been the case. 125 00:06:31,520 --> 00:06:33,880 Speaker 2: That's four years to learn a new way of working 126 00:06:33,960 --> 00:06:36,400 Speaker 2: after twenty one years of that way being in grain. 127 00:06:36,560 --> 00:06:39,560 Speaker 2: So I think we've not done enough unlearning, and I 128 00:06:39,560 --> 00:06:42,680 Speaker 2: think the pendulum swing of return to office no flexibility, No, 129 00:06:42,800 --> 00:06:45,240 Speaker 2: it's hybrid, like that whole pendulum swings. That's sort of 130 00:06:45,240 --> 00:06:47,960 Speaker 2: not helped. And then just thirdly, I think the cancel 131 00:06:48,000 --> 00:06:51,760 Speaker 2: culture has crept in. And I've spoken about a wonderful 132 00:06:51,760 --> 00:06:55,760 Speaker 2: conversation with a lady by an mfmy Penn something. She 133 00:06:55,800 --> 00:06:57,960 Speaker 2: was saying that she's been coaching a whold of like 134 00:06:58,279 --> 00:07:00,400 Speaker 2: middle aged guys who are like I do put my 135 00:07:00,440 --> 00:07:02,160 Speaker 2: hand up and go for a promotion because I'm a 136 00:07:02,200 --> 00:07:04,159 Speaker 2: middle aged white guy. And I was like what, and 137 00:07:04,279 --> 00:07:06,560 Speaker 2: she explained it. I was like, oh, we've kind of 138 00:07:07,040 --> 00:07:09,640 Speaker 2: we've had their reverse. So the example I'd give, and 139 00:07:09,680 --> 00:07:12,880 Speaker 2: I saw this firsthand with one of my customers recently, 140 00:07:13,240 --> 00:07:15,320 Speaker 2: one of the senior leaders is like they had a 141 00:07:15,360 --> 00:07:18,960 Speaker 2: diversity and inclusion person that just took great enjoyment in 142 00:07:19,000 --> 00:07:22,000 Speaker 2: pointing out the one thing that you got wrong. And 143 00:07:22,080 --> 00:07:24,680 Speaker 2: so one of the leaders had put out of communication 144 00:07:24,800 --> 00:07:27,320 Speaker 2: it was ninety nine percent right, one percent wrong, and 145 00:07:27,360 --> 00:07:29,200 Speaker 2: they got pulled over the coals for it being wrong 146 00:07:29,400 --> 00:07:32,520 Speaker 2: is wrong, Like it wasn't a fully inclusive communication. You 147 00:07:32,600 --> 00:07:36,239 Speaker 2: got it wrong. So that leader's just stopped communicating, They've 148 00:07:36,240 --> 00:07:38,680 Speaker 2: not changed how they communicate. They're like, there's no point 149 00:07:38,840 --> 00:07:41,520 Speaker 2: I feel do it that well and still get pulled 150 00:07:41,520 --> 00:07:43,960 Speaker 2: over the coals. I just won't do it again. And 151 00:07:43,960 --> 00:07:45,800 Speaker 2: they're in a leadership position, So just think about it. 152 00:07:45,960 --> 00:07:48,480 Speaker 2: If this is a leader who should be storytelling, to 153 00:07:48,560 --> 00:07:53,160 Speaker 2: tell a story to build awareness and context in psychological safety, 154 00:07:53,400 --> 00:07:55,720 Speaker 2: and they decide not to because they think the consequences 155 00:07:55,760 --> 00:07:58,600 Speaker 2: is too high, you've just lost psychological safety. So no 156 00:07:58,600 --> 00:08:00,240 Speaker 2: one's going to speak up anymore. Like it. It's a 157 00:08:00,280 --> 00:08:03,080 Speaker 2: self fulfilling prophecy. So I like in it. And I 158 00:08:03,120 --> 00:08:06,000 Speaker 2: know you've got kids as well. When me and Becker 159 00:08:06,080 --> 00:08:07,800 Speaker 2: first had their kids and then we had a conversation 160 00:08:07,840 --> 00:08:11,960 Speaker 2: which was, let's start every situation with forgiveness. We're tired, 161 00:08:12,320 --> 00:08:14,320 Speaker 2: this is our first time of being parents. We're going 162 00:08:14,360 --> 00:08:16,520 Speaker 2: to get it wrong. Don't shout at me for getting 163 00:08:16,520 --> 00:08:19,160 Speaker 2: it wrong. Try and understand what happened and how it 164 00:08:19,240 --> 00:08:22,480 Speaker 2: went wrong. Right, So starting with forgiveness that feels normal 165 00:08:22,520 --> 00:08:24,560 Speaker 2: in a relationship, but in the work context, I'm going 166 00:08:24,600 --> 00:08:26,480 Speaker 2: to start by pointing out the thing that you're missing, 167 00:08:26,720 --> 00:08:29,240 Speaker 2: not the things that you've gotten. That just seems like 168 00:08:29,240 --> 00:08:30,400 Speaker 2: a dangerous precedent to me. 169 00:08:31,280 --> 00:08:35,640 Speaker 1: I would love to get into how you approach difficult conversations, 170 00:08:35,840 --> 00:08:37,320 Speaker 1: and I might share some of the things that I do, 171 00:08:37,440 --> 00:08:41,040 Speaker 1: but I don't think that I am doing it particularly well. 172 00:08:41,040 --> 00:08:43,200 Speaker 1: It's definitely an area where I need work, so I'm 173 00:08:43,280 --> 00:08:45,600 Speaker 1: keen to learn from you, Dom. I would love to 174 00:08:45,640 --> 00:08:48,840 Speaker 1: know to start with, what are the main types of 175 00:08:48,920 --> 00:08:54,440 Speaker 1: difficult conversations that you're finding you're having and maybe others 176 00:08:54,600 --> 00:08:56,160 Speaker 1: at lassie and needing to have. 177 00:08:56,720 --> 00:09:01,559 Speaker 2: In the workplace, it's almost always a dore of feedback, right, 178 00:09:01,600 --> 00:09:03,960 Speaker 2: And it could be feedback in the in the here's 179 00:09:04,000 --> 00:09:06,600 Speaker 2: something you did or didn't do. It could be feedback 180 00:09:06,600 --> 00:09:09,000 Speaker 2: in that every now and then, yeah, I work I 181 00:09:09,080 --> 00:09:10,760 Speaker 2: saw with this as well. We don't all have one 182 00:09:10,800 --> 00:09:12,640 Speaker 2: hundred percent of self awareness. So every now and then 183 00:09:12,920 --> 00:09:15,440 Speaker 2: it's one telling you something that you've not acknowledged or 184 00:09:15,480 --> 00:09:17,640 Speaker 2: seen yet and you're like, oh, like, I don't know 185 00:09:17,640 --> 00:09:20,480 Speaker 2: how that's going to go down. So it's normally pointing 186 00:09:20,520 --> 00:09:25,560 Speaker 2: something out that is somewhat controversial or fueled in some way. Right, 187 00:09:25,600 --> 00:09:29,920 Speaker 2: it's a hot topic where you're nervous about the consequences. Right, 188 00:09:29,920 --> 00:09:32,120 Speaker 2: it feels like there might be recourse. That's why it's 189 00:09:32,120 --> 00:09:35,079 Speaker 2: fascinating because one of the first things is just reframe, right, 190 00:09:35,240 --> 00:09:38,920 Speaker 2: it's just conversation. The fact that we label it difficult 191 00:09:39,000 --> 00:09:42,520 Speaker 2: conversation or crucial conversation, suddenly we've upped the odds and 192 00:09:42,520 --> 00:09:45,079 Speaker 2: you're like, oh no, this is now a difficult conversation. 193 00:09:45,320 --> 00:09:49,640 Speaker 2: I must go and prepare for said in whose eyes? 194 00:09:49,720 --> 00:09:53,480 Speaker 2: Is it difficult? Like we've already labeled it a bad thing? Right, 195 00:09:53,520 --> 00:09:56,199 Speaker 2: so mindset wise, God knows chemically what's going on in 196 00:09:56,280 --> 00:09:58,600 Speaker 2: our brain. When you're like, I'm now sitting you down 197 00:09:58,640 --> 00:10:01,600 Speaker 2: for a difficult and I imagine this one that Amantha, I'm 198 00:10:01,600 --> 00:10:03,360 Speaker 2: now going to sit you down for a difficult conversation, 199 00:10:03,559 --> 00:10:06,320 Speaker 2: Like why is it difficult? What's difficult about it? So 200 00:10:06,360 --> 00:10:08,840 Speaker 2: I actually the reframe of like either if I don't 201 00:10:08,840 --> 00:10:12,080 Speaker 2: say this, what happens as you said before, or otherwise 202 00:10:12,080 --> 00:10:13,560 Speaker 2: that I think about it as a gift. If it's 203 00:10:13,840 --> 00:10:17,000 Speaker 2: someone's not seeing something and I'm helping them build more 204 00:10:17,040 --> 00:10:19,240 Speaker 2: awareness and I'm doing it with good intent, I'm not 205 00:10:19,280 --> 00:10:22,800 Speaker 2: doing it for wan upmanship or for maliciousness, then that's 206 00:10:22,840 --> 00:10:24,400 Speaker 2: a gift. It genuinely should be a gift. And if 207 00:10:24,400 --> 00:10:26,840 Speaker 2: I reframe it like that, my words are very different. 208 00:10:27,040 --> 00:10:30,800 Speaker 1: What else are you doing to prepare for that conversation? 209 00:10:31,280 --> 00:10:33,600 Speaker 2: Lots of questions if you know me well enough to 210 00:10:33,600 --> 00:10:36,560 Speaker 2: not I suffer with an abundance of confidence, which can 211 00:10:36,600 --> 00:10:40,000 Speaker 2: be quite destructive. And so I'm always like, oh, if 212 00:10:40,040 --> 00:10:42,720 Speaker 2: I've seen something and I've used the halo effectacy again 213 00:10:42,720 --> 00:10:45,960 Speaker 2: and again and again, what biases am I applying to 214 00:10:46,080 --> 00:10:48,800 Speaker 2: this That might may or may not be true, but 215 00:10:48,840 --> 00:10:52,400 Speaker 2: they're certainly influencing the way I'm seeing it. I always 216 00:10:52,400 --> 00:10:54,480 Speaker 2: think that for any stimulus you put in the middle 217 00:10:54,480 --> 00:10:57,240 Speaker 2: of a room, if hundred of us stood around in 218 00:10:57,240 --> 00:10:59,120 Speaker 2: a circle, we're all looking at the same thing, but 219 00:10:59,120 --> 00:11:01,600 Speaker 2: we've got a different view. And so I have to 220 00:11:01,640 --> 00:11:04,920 Speaker 2: check my biases every now and then. And then. Normally 221 00:11:04,960 --> 00:11:08,480 Speaker 2: the hardest question to answer, but one that's full of wonderment, 222 00:11:08,880 --> 00:11:11,800 Speaker 2: is what might be going on for that person right now. 223 00:11:11,960 --> 00:11:13,920 Speaker 2: It's not that you can ever answer that, but it's 224 00:11:13,960 --> 00:11:16,360 Speaker 2: just one of going You probably know a fraction of 225 00:11:16,400 --> 00:11:19,680 Speaker 2: a percentage of what's happening with them, so be careful. 226 00:11:20,120 --> 00:11:22,679 Speaker 2: I don't make assumptions about what's going on with them, 227 00:11:22,880 --> 00:11:27,480 Speaker 2: and therefore charging with answers maybe charging there subtly, but 228 00:11:27,559 --> 00:11:30,199 Speaker 2: with questions like what is going on right now? How 229 00:11:30,240 --> 00:11:32,320 Speaker 2: are you going? So the question I asked this person, 230 00:11:32,400 --> 00:11:34,600 Speaker 2: I was like, how did you think that the workshop went? 231 00:11:34,760 --> 00:11:38,640 Speaker 2: And they were like amazing? And I was like, oh good, good. 232 00:11:38,800 --> 00:11:41,920 Speaker 2: In that case, would you like my view because it's 233 00:11:41,960 --> 00:11:45,000 Speaker 2: a participant. But my question to then was what are 234 00:11:45,040 --> 00:11:47,120 Speaker 2: you seeing that made you think it was amazing? Because 235 00:11:47,120 --> 00:11:50,000 Speaker 2: I'm genuinely curious about that. You They weren't lying, They 236 00:11:50,080 --> 00:11:52,360 Speaker 2: genuinely thought it was. So I'm like, you explain your 237 00:11:52,400 --> 00:11:54,640 Speaker 2: world and it'll make me more aware of what you 238 00:11:54,840 --> 00:11:57,280 Speaker 2: what signals you took in. Too many of us enter 239 00:11:57,280 --> 00:12:00,200 Speaker 2: the conversation to go so I'm going to persuade you 240 00:12:00,240 --> 00:12:03,280 Speaker 2: why I'm right and you're wrong. And that's not a 241 00:12:03,320 --> 00:12:06,720 Speaker 2: difficult conversation. That's a one way conversation. Versus, tell me 242 00:12:06,760 --> 00:12:09,520 Speaker 2: more about your situation, your world, what's going on? How 243 00:12:09,520 --> 00:12:12,400 Speaker 2: did you find that that that's bringing them into the conversation. 244 00:12:12,400 --> 00:12:14,280 Speaker 2: It's a completely different model. 245 00:12:14,400 --> 00:12:17,600 Speaker 1: It's interesting because I can see how that can apply 246 00:12:18,160 --> 00:12:22,200 Speaker 1: to giving someone feedback, But I wonder when it is 247 00:12:22,240 --> 00:12:25,720 Speaker 1: an objectively hard conversation, like let's just say it's pay 248 00:12:25,760 --> 00:12:29,280 Speaker 1: review time someone hasn't hit their targets and you're there 249 00:12:29,320 --> 00:12:31,680 Speaker 1: to tell them you're not getting a pay rise for 250 00:12:31,720 --> 00:12:34,240 Speaker 1: another twelve months. Like that is not a fun conversation. 251 00:12:34,400 --> 00:12:36,160 Speaker 1: There is no way of spinning that to go. But 252 00:12:36,200 --> 00:12:38,600 Speaker 1: what's your perspective? Do you maybe think this is the roundestad? 253 00:12:38,800 --> 00:12:41,040 Speaker 1: How is it different in those instances where I think 254 00:12:41,040 --> 00:12:44,280 Speaker 1: we can agree this is objectively not a good conversation 255 00:12:44,360 --> 00:12:45,560 Speaker 1: to be having for anyone. 256 00:12:45,720 --> 00:12:48,480 Speaker 2: Maybe I'm just like an absolute narcissist, but I've had 257 00:12:48,520 --> 00:12:50,680 Speaker 2: those conversations in my career and I don't mind them 258 00:12:50,880 --> 00:12:53,679 Speaker 2: because the normal normally based off a fact like this 259 00:12:53,960 --> 00:12:56,960 Speaker 2: was your target. You did not hit that target. So 260 00:12:57,240 --> 00:13:00,000 Speaker 2: I think facts are friends. Right when you've got a fact, 261 00:13:00,120 --> 00:13:02,840 Speaker 2: you're like, ah, this isn't my opinion anymore. It's not 262 00:13:03,080 --> 00:13:05,520 Speaker 2: I don't think you made your target. You didn't make 263 00:13:05,559 --> 00:13:08,680 Speaker 2: your target, but you're like, cool, okay, so that didn't 264 00:13:08,720 --> 00:13:12,679 Speaker 2: happen and the consequences of that are and then normally 265 00:13:12,679 --> 00:13:14,720 Speaker 2: it's a reset to go how do you feel about that? 266 00:13:14,800 --> 00:13:16,160 Speaker 2: Because I always want to check in with the person 267 00:13:16,320 --> 00:13:18,400 Speaker 2: as that make you feel if they're like I expected 268 00:13:18,400 --> 00:13:20,360 Speaker 2: it and you hadn't. In my target, but you're like okay, 269 00:13:20,840 --> 00:13:22,280 Speaker 2: or they're like I didn't meet it and I still 270 00:13:22,320 --> 00:13:23,800 Speaker 2: think I should have had one hundred percent pay round. 271 00:13:23,800 --> 00:13:25,840 Speaker 2: You're like, okay, that's a different problem to solve, but 272 00:13:26,080 --> 00:13:28,600 Speaker 2: I need to know your perspective is a very important 273 00:13:28,679 --> 00:13:31,560 Speaker 2: data point. But then that's a flip of a conversation 274 00:13:31,640 --> 00:13:34,320 Speaker 2: to go do you want an invite? Do you want 275 00:13:34,360 --> 00:13:37,680 Speaker 2: to have a career conversation about what thriving looks like 276 00:13:37,760 --> 00:13:40,040 Speaker 2: here and how we can work together to do that, 277 00:13:40,840 --> 00:13:43,199 Speaker 2: or don't you That's a genuine option, And because sometimes 278 00:13:43,400 --> 00:13:45,679 Speaker 2: people are like, nah, I've reached my pinnacle or I'm 279 00:13:45,679 --> 00:13:47,080 Speaker 2: done here. I don't like it and I want to 280 00:13:47,080 --> 00:13:49,120 Speaker 2: move on. You're like, oh, there's no point met sugar 281 00:13:49,200 --> 00:13:51,240 Speaker 2: coating into the bad news. You're done here and let's 282 00:13:51,240 --> 00:13:53,839 Speaker 2: have a chat about how we help you gracefully exit 283 00:13:53,880 --> 00:13:57,040 Speaker 2: and what's next. Or they're like, no, I'm in here's 284 00:13:57,040 --> 00:14:00,000 Speaker 2: the circumstances that meant I didn't nail it last year. 285 00:14:00,679 --> 00:14:03,080 Speaker 2: How can we have a conversation about what that looks 286 00:14:03,120 --> 00:14:07,120 Speaker 2: like if I'm thriving. I think what makes that conversation harder, 287 00:14:07,200 --> 00:14:10,439 Speaker 2: manth is how long we leave it for it's the 288 00:14:10,480 --> 00:14:14,440 Speaker 2: time difference between missing the target and having the chat. 289 00:14:15,320 --> 00:14:18,800 Speaker 2: Because you missed the target, having that chat is in context, Hey, 290 00:14:19,160 --> 00:14:21,280 Speaker 2: who's your target? We set that's fair, Like, let's have 291 00:14:21,360 --> 00:14:23,840 Speaker 2: a meaningful conversation about why did you miss? What the ups, 292 00:14:23,840 --> 00:14:26,920 Speaker 2: what were the downs, what the circumstances. That's a great 293 00:14:26,960 --> 00:14:30,400 Speaker 2: time to have that conversation. Three months later, when you 294 00:14:30,440 --> 00:14:33,480 Speaker 2: book a meeting with the person, that's an ambush. It's like, oh, 295 00:14:33,480 --> 00:14:35,880 Speaker 2: this is a fate to complete. You missed, You don't 296 00:14:36,200 --> 00:14:38,640 Speaker 2: like it's over, and so I don't think that's a 297 00:14:38,640 --> 00:14:42,240 Speaker 2: particularly engaging conversation. That's what I used to work with 298 00:14:42,320 --> 00:14:44,760 Speaker 2: and said, bad news doesn't get better with time, and 299 00:14:44,840 --> 00:14:47,000 Speaker 2: it doesn't, but we just leave it too long with 300 00:14:47,040 --> 00:14:49,320 Speaker 2: the hope that something magical will make it better. It doesn't, 301 00:14:49,560 --> 00:14:51,880 Speaker 2: so it then feels like an ambush and it's too late. 302 00:14:52,120 --> 00:14:54,160 Speaker 2: I can't cause correct, I can't do anything different. 303 00:14:54,360 --> 00:14:57,240 Speaker 1: We will be back with Don soon, and when we return, 304 00:14:57,360 --> 00:15:00,680 Speaker 1: we'll be discussing the unique way he prepares for difficult 305 00:15:00,720 --> 00:15:04,760 Speaker 1: conversations and his's advice on what you can do to 306 00:15:05,000 --> 00:15:08,120 Speaker 1: safely have a difficult conversation with someone in a higher 307 00:15:08,160 --> 00:15:14,360 Speaker 1: position than you. If you're looking for more tips to 308 00:15:14,440 --> 00:15:17,160 Speaker 1: improve the way you work can live. I write a 309 00:15:17,200 --> 00:15:20,640 Speaker 1: short weekly newsletter that contains tactics I've discovered that have 310 00:15:20,680 --> 00:15:23,560 Speaker 1: helped me personally. You can sign up for that at 311 00:15:23,600 --> 00:15:32,720 Speaker 1: Amantha dot com. That's Amantha dot com. You mentioned that 312 00:15:32,760 --> 00:15:35,280 Speaker 1: you ask like or you think about in preparation for 313 00:15:35,320 --> 00:15:39,840 Speaker 1: the conversation, asking questions like do you write these down? 314 00:15:40,080 --> 00:15:42,400 Speaker 1: Because I know you're a natural question asker. I can 315 00:15:42,560 --> 00:15:46,000 Speaker 1: very well see you just going in and improvising brilliantly 316 00:15:46,200 --> 00:15:47,120 Speaker 1: in these conversations. 317 00:15:47,120 --> 00:15:47,880 Speaker 2: But do you. 318 00:15:47,840 --> 00:15:51,800 Speaker 1: Actually prepare, like, sit down and write the things that 319 00:15:51,840 --> 00:15:53,760 Speaker 1: are on your mind, the things that you're curious about, 320 00:15:54,080 --> 00:15:56,120 Speaker 1: even do a role play? Does any of this happen 321 00:15:56,120 --> 00:15:56,800 Speaker 1: in your world? 322 00:15:57,120 --> 00:16:00,560 Speaker 2: No? Not in a glamorous way. What what I do 323 00:16:00,600 --> 00:16:03,840 Speaker 2: do is I write down themes for my style of 324 00:16:04,320 --> 00:16:07,440 Speaker 2: learning and work. Questions can be my enemy because if 325 00:16:07,480 --> 00:16:11,000 Speaker 2: I have questions written down, I will ask them even 326 00:16:11,000 --> 00:16:13,840 Speaker 2: if the answer to the previous question made the next 327 00:16:13,880 --> 00:16:16,520 Speaker 2: question null and vote right, because I'm like, well it's 328 00:16:16,560 --> 00:16:20,480 Speaker 2: here that's getting you like, that's weird. It's like I'm 329 00:16:20,480 --> 00:16:25,480 Speaker 2: working with a machine now, versus saying thematically, what do 330 00:16:25,560 --> 00:16:27,600 Speaker 2: I want to cover. So like thematically, what I want 331 00:16:27,640 --> 00:16:29,880 Speaker 2: to cover right now with you is what's happening at 332 00:16:29,920 --> 00:16:31,880 Speaker 2: how or life in general. I want to cover the 333 00:16:31,920 --> 00:16:33,880 Speaker 2: specificit of you're working your task, and I want to 334 00:16:33,880 --> 00:16:36,000 Speaker 2: cover the fact that you missed three months off because 335 00:16:36,000 --> 00:16:37,400 Speaker 2: you had to sick leave. Right, They're the things I 336 00:16:37,440 --> 00:16:39,760 Speaker 2: want to cover. And under the banner of those, I 337 00:16:39,800 --> 00:16:43,840 Speaker 2: want to ask the most open question possible, not leading questions, 338 00:16:44,040 --> 00:16:46,000 Speaker 2: but open questions. I want to give you an honest 339 00:16:46,080 --> 00:16:48,800 Speaker 2: chance to share and portray your view the world. Again, 340 00:16:48,800 --> 00:16:51,520 Speaker 2: you're not right, I'm not right, You're not wrong, I'm 341 00:16:51,520 --> 00:16:53,360 Speaker 2: not wrong. We can have a difference of opinion. But 342 00:16:53,440 --> 00:16:55,600 Speaker 2: with those questions, I'm like, these are the three themes, right, 343 00:16:55,680 --> 00:16:58,440 Speaker 2: the three data points. Let's talk about them. Which one 344 00:16:58,440 --> 00:17:00,600 Speaker 2: do you want to start with? Is not like my 345 00:17:00,680 --> 00:17:03,440 Speaker 2: first question because I want them to pick. I don't 346 00:17:03,480 --> 00:17:07,040 Speaker 2: want to say I want to start with your sales technique, right, 347 00:17:07,080 --> 00:17:08,959 Speaker 2: because I think that's the most important. I want then say, 348 00:17:09,000 --> 00:17:10,360 Speaker 2: you know what, The thing I really want to start 349 00:17:10,400 --> 00:17:13,640 Speaker 2: with is the home situation. Here's my environment right now 350 00:17:13,640 --> 00:17:16,439 Speaker 2: in my life and what's going on. You're like, ah, okay, 351 00:17:16,480 --> 00:17:18,800 Speaker 2: that gives me a rich context as to why other 352 00:17:18,840 --> 00:17:21,760 Speaker 2: things are happening. But letting them build their own adventure 353 00:17:21,800 --> 00:17:24,320 Speaker 2: there gives me a whole lot of answers that they're 354 00:17:24,320 --> 00:17:27,119 Speaker 2: not giving me that if I ask a specific question, 355 00:17:27,440 --> 00:17:29,919 Speaker 2: I might get a specific answer, but I don't know 356 00:17:29,920 --> 00:17:31,359 Speaker 2: the answer I would have got if I'd ask the 357 00:17:31,400 --> 00:17:33,879 Speaker 2: broader question. And so when I treat these as a 358 00:17:33,920 --> 00:17:36,679 Speaker 2: genuine two way conversation, and for that, I have to 359 00:17:36,680 --> 00:17:39,880 Speaker 2: give myself the permission of time, which we don't give ourselves. 360 00:17:39,880 --> 00:17:41,840 Speaker 2: Were like, I've got ten minutes to have a crucial 361 00:17:41,880 --> 00:17:45,840 Speaker 2: conversation your crap right, versus going I've got an hour 362 00:17:45,920 --> 00:17:48,080 Speaker 2: for this. And it's not that I've got a single 363 00:17:48,119 --> 00:17:50,320 Speaker 2: objective in mind to make you think that you're bad. 364 00:17:50,840 --> 00:17:53,040 Speaker 2: I just want to cover the data points and have 365 00:17:53,440 --> 00:17:55,680 Speaker 2: a rich tapestry for conversation and agree some kind of 366 00:17:55,760 --> 00:17:58,359 Speaker 2: next steps. And so when I give myself time to 367 00:17:58,440 --> 00:18:01,720 Speaker 2: do that and open questions and those things, that feels 368 00:18:01,760 --> 00:18:04,240 Speaker 2: like a nice structure for me versus these are the 369 00:18:04,240 --> 00:18:06,560 Speaker 2: specific questions I want to ask, because I find I 370 00:18:06,600 --> 00:18:10,040 Speaker 2: get specific answers which often satisfy what I wanted to hear. 371 00:18:11,160 --> 00:18:14,359 Speaker 1: It's funny, don't we prepare in such different ways, Like 372 00:18:14,600 --> 00:18:18,040 Speaker 1: I feel like I'm pretty good at improvising. I even 373 00:18:18,080 --> 00:18:20,400 Speaker 1: studied it for many years of my life. But when 374 00:18:20,440 --> 00:18:23,520 Speaker 1: I know that I have a difficult conversation, and I 375 00:18:23,760 --> 00:18:26,399 Speaker 1: like your point about, well, if you're framing it in 376 00:18:26,440 --> 00:18:28,520 Speaker 1: your mind that it's going to be a difficult conversation, 377 00:18:28,720 --> 00:18:32,080 Speaker 1: then that's not helping anyone. But sometimes the reality is 378 00:18:32,200 --> 00:18:34,560 Speaker 1: I know that I'm here to deliver some news that 379 00:18:34,720 --> 00:18:37,720 Speaker 1: is going to be hard to take, and that is 380 00:18:37,840 --> 00:18:40,880 Speaker 1: objectively going to be a bit of a crappy conversation. 381 00:18:41,320 --> 00:18:43,040 Speaker 1: I think I go the other way. I do a 382 00:18:43,040 --> 00:18:45,800 Speaker 1: lot of preparation and I sort of I write down 383 00:18:45,800 --> 00:18:50,959 Speaker 1: different possibilities. I think about what can I control, And 384 00:18:51,080 --> 00:18:54,680 Speaker 1: something I always want to be in a difficult conversation 385 00:18:54,760 --> 00:18:56,919 Speaker 1: is I want to be clear, because I feel like 386 00:18:56,960 --> 00:18:58,400 Speaker 1: clarity is very helpful. 387 00:18:58,680 --> 00:19:01,040 Speaker 2: Yeah, vagaries don't help one in those conversations. 388 00:19:01,119 --> 00:19:04,479 Speaker 1: No, But I feel like people err on the side 389 00:19:04,680 --> 00:19:08,919 Speaker 1: of being vague and indirect because that almost feels like 390 00:19:08,960 --> 00:19:09,760 Speaker 1: the easier option. 391 00:19:10,040 --> 00:19:12,440 Speaker 2: Yeah, feel safer, it does, it does. 392 00:19:12,480 --> 00:19:15,080 Speaker 1: So I will write down what are the key messages 393 00:19:15,560 --> 00:19:18,959 Speaker 1: that I feel like I need to clearly deliver in 394 00:19:19,000 --> 00:19:23,680 Speaker 1: this conversation and it's funny. I love how you are 395 00:19:23,680 --> 00:19:26,399 Speaker 1: giving the person that you're having that conversation with a 396 00:19:26,400 --> 00:19:29,800 Speaker 1: lot of autonomy to choose their own adventure. I'm learning 397 00:19:29,840 --> 00:19:32,720 Speaker 1: from that because in my mind, I'm thinking, what is 398 00:19:32,760 --> 00:19:36,960 Speaker 1: the best structure to get across these things that feel 399 00:19:36,960 --> 00:19:39,560 Speaker 1: difficult but I need to get across. And I think 400 00:19:39,600 --> 00:19:42,080 Speaker 1: you know, some conversations it is more about feedback and 401 00:19:42,080 --> 00:19:44,800 Speaker 1: it can go in different ways. But maybe more recently, 402 00:19:44,840 --> 00:19:47,800 Speaker 1: I've had to have a few tough conversations that it's 403 00:19:47,880 --> 00:19:51,520 Speaker 1: like I've got news to deliver. It sucks, and I 404 00:19:51,560 --> 00:19:53,560 Speaker 1: feel like I need to create a bit of a 405 00:19:53,560 --> 00:19:57,399 Speaker 1: guidebook for myself and then I will role play with 406 00:19:57,440 --> 00:20:00,680 Speaker 1: my partner if it's a really difficulty conversation that I'm 407 00:20:00,680 --> 00:20:04,159 Speaker 1: feeling stressed about. And I feel like I spend an 408 00:20:04,200 --> 00:20:07,920 Speaker 1: inordinate amount of time preparing for these conversations. I don't 409 00:20:07,920 --> 00:20:09,960 Speaker 1: know if it's making me any better at them. I 410 00:20:09,960 --> 00:20:13,080 Speaker 1: think it's maybe increasing my nerves because of the weight 411 00:20:13,160 --> 00:20:16,439 Speaker 1: that I'm putting on it. What feedback would you give me, 412 00:20:16,560 --> 00:20:20,080 Speaker 1: Tom about this process, because it's like leagues apart from yours. 413 00:20:20,359 --> 00:20:22,879 Speaker 2: I think the first headline is preparation is not bad, 414 00:20:23,280 --> 00:20:25,280 Speaker 2: But I'd hate lot to take away from this conversation 415 00:20:25,320 --> 00:20:28,199 Speaker 2: that just go with your instinct and fly by the 416 00:20:28,200 --> 00:20:30,199 Speaker 2: seat your pantag. That's going to create a hold of 417 00:20:30,240 --> 00:20:32,960 Speaker 2: really wacky, like messed up crucial conversations. So I think 418 00:20:33,000 --> 00:20:35,960 Speaker 2: a little bit of preparation goes well. I prepare with themes, 419 00:20:36,320 --> 00:20:39,399 Speaker 2: understanding and contexts. I get my facts. I've always got 420 00:20:39,440 --> 00:20:41,560 Speaker 2: my Bulley point facts written down that I want to 421 00:20:41,600 --> 00:20:44,080 Speaker 2: make sure I cover. But but I'm doing a very 422 00:20:44,080 --> 00:20:46,359 Speaker 2: different type of prep to you. So I think, regardless 423 00:20:46,359 --> 00:20:50,440 Speaker 2: of what kind of personality style you are, preparation's good. 424 00:20:51,080 --> 00:20:55,160 Speaker 2: Over preparation isn't good. And there isn't a moment when 425 00:20:55,160 --> 00:20:57,760 Speaker 2: you go at that minute you over prepared, like I think, 426 00:20:57,800 --> 00:21:00,720 Speaker 2: it's when you think you can control the conversation. And 427 00:21:00,760 --> 00:21:03,480 Speaker 2: that for me is this massive red flag. And I 428 00:21:03,600 --> 00:21:06,679 Speaker 2: fall into this trap before of thinking it's my conversation 429 00:21:07,200 --> 00:21:10,880 Speaker 2: and it's not. It's our conversation. And if I'm role 430 00:21:10,920 --> 00:21:13,680 Speaker 2: playing and they have no idea what I'm role playing for, 431 00:21:14,320 --> 00:21:16,800 Speaker 2: and they only get that sense in the first thirty seconds, 432 00:21:17,000 --> 00:21:18,640 Speaker 2: and they were telling you, I don't worry. I spent 433 00:21:18,720 --> 00:21:21,880 Speaker 2: all night rehearsing when partner, I've got this, I've got 434 00:21:21,880 --> 00:21:24,639 Speaker 2: it down to fifty five minutes. Right, Oh, right, Like 435 00:21:24,880 --> 00:21:27,919 Speaker 2: that's that's not a conversation anymore, that's a broadcast. So 436 00:21:28,080 --> 00:21:31,280 Speaker 2: I think preparation is good, but we need to just 437 00:21:31,359 --> 00:21:35,080 Speaker 2: be honest that these conversations are very rarely perfect, and 438 00:21:35,160 --> 00:21:37,280 Speaker 2: so how do you let them take on some level 439 00:21:37,320 --> 00:21:40,960 Speaker 2: of organic and natural course? And for that, I'm like, 440 00:21:41,040 --> 00:21:42,800 Speaker 2: I need to open my ears and close my mathith. 441 00:21:42,800 --> 00:21:45,840 Speaker 2: Occasionally some prep goes well, but I'm like, I need 442 00:21:45,880 --> 00:21:48,280 Speaker 2: to be open to the idea that this conversation might 443 00:21:48,320 --> 00:21:50,800 Speaker 2: be derailed and that could be a good thing. 444 00:21:51,040 --> 00:21:55,440 Speaker 1: I'm hearing that. I feel like maybe I maybe I've 445 00:21:55,480 --> 00:21:58,560 Speaker 1: gone too far in over preparing. I sometimes think this 446 00:21:58,640 --> 00:22:00,600 Speaker 1: in my partner comments, he said, oh my gosh, the 447 00:22:00,600 --> 00:22:03,879 Speaker 1: amount of time you spend preparing for conversations that are 448 00:22:03,880 --> 00:22:06,600 Speaker 1: going to be challenging. I've never seen anyone spend that 449 00:22:06,680 --> 00:22:07,560 Speaker 1: much time preparing for. 450 00:22:07,600 --> 00:22:09,320 Speaker 2: What drives you to do that? I get what you're doing. 451 00:22:09,359 --> 00:22:10,080 Speaker 2: What's the driving for? 452 00:22:10,240 --> 00:22:13,520 Speaker 1: Yeah, it's a good question. I think that you know 453 00:22:13,600 --> 00:22:16,040 Speaker 1: for reasons that I'm sure emerged in just like my 454 00:22:16,680 --> 00:22:20,639 Speaker 1: upbringing and my experience as a child. I think I 455 00:22:20,720 --> 00:22:23,639 Speaker 1: have a fear of the person that I'm speaking to 456 00:22:23,960 --> 00:22:28,040 Speaker 1: about the difficult thing getting really angry with me, and 457 00:22:28,560 --> 00:22:30,919 Speaker 1: that like when I figured that out, actually figured that 458 00:22:30,960 --> 00:22:33,560 Speaker 1: out in therapy because I was talking to my therapist 459 00:22:33,640 --> 00:22:36,720 Speaker 1: about a really difficult conversation I was preparing for and 460 00:22:36,760 --> 00:22:39,080 Speaker 1: he said, what do you think is going to happen? 461 00:22:39,520 --> 00:22:41,119 Speaker 1: And I said, I think they're going to scream at 462 00:22:41,160 --> 00:22:44,119 Speaker 1: me or that's what That's my deepest fear. And that 463 00:22:44,240 --> 00:22:47,840 Speaker 1: really happens in most workplaces. Well, I guess not. You know, 464 00:22:48,080 --> 00:22:49,680 Speaker 1: there is anly workwises that would happen. 465 00:22:49,880 --> 00:22:51,440 Speaker 2: It's also like it's still in mine. 466 00:22:51,640 --> 00:22:55,160 Speaker 1: Yeah, I think I have a fear of being maybe 467 00:22:55,600 --> 00:22:59,520 Speaker 1: misconstrued or misinterpreted, and I think that feeds into that 468 00:22:59,600 --> 00:23:02,880 Speaker 1: cancer culture where I've experienced that in the past, where 469 00:23:02,920 --> 00:23:06,960 Speaker 1: I've just I've got one small thing wrong and it's 470 00:23:07,000 --> 00:23:08,600 Speaker 1: just had really big consequences. 471 00:23:08,760 --> 00:23:11,200 Speaker 2: Yeah, the nineteen percent right and the one cent exactly, 472 00:23:11,440 --> 00:23:13,960 Speaker 2: It can be paralyzed. Yeah, because when when you've put 473 00:23:14,000 --> 00:23:15,920 Speaker 2: so much of your and you're a heart and soul 474 00:23:16,000 --> 00:23:18,080 Speaker 2: kind of person, right, You've you've run your own business, 475 00:23:18,080 --> 00:23:20,520 Speaker 2: you've scaled up a business. You care about your people 476 00:23:20,680 --> 00:23:22,880 Speaker 2: when you're doing that. It's not all about profit. There's 477 00:23:22,880 --> 00:23:25,399 Speaker 2: a lot of care involved, right, and when you do that, 478 00:23:25,440 --> 00:23:27,440 Speaker 2: and so one goes, here's the one thing you got wrong. 479 00:23:28,000 --> 00:23:29,439 Speaker 2: I just want to flip the table and take those 480 00:23:29,440 --> 00:23:31,840 Speaker 2: people down because you're like, why can't you account for 481 00:23:31,880 --> 00:23:34,119 Speaker 2: the bits that went well. I'm happy to have the 482 00:23:34,240 --> 00:23:36,280 Speaker 2: chat about the one percent that went wrong, but can 483 00:23:36,320 --> 00:23:38,320 Speaker 2: we have the context of when it went wrong and 484 00:23:38,359 --> 00:23:41,000 Speaker 2: how and all the things that went well, because otherwise 485 00:23:41,000 --> 00:23:42,520 Speaker 2: it seems a little bit overly negative. 486 00:23:43,000 --> 00:23:45,560 Speaker 1: I mean, imagine if people started doing that dom I 487 00:23:45,600 --> 00:23:50,440 Speaker 1: feel like that would be quite transformative. Something else I'm 488 00:23:50,480 --> 00:23:53,320 Speaker 1: curious about, something I am aware of in myself is 489 00:23:53,359 --> 00:23:56,760 Speaker 1: that just in those few minutes before I entered the 490 00:23:56,840 --> 00:24:00,200 Speaker 1: zoom call or the team's call or whatever channel i'ming 491 00:24:00,200 --> 00:24:03,840 Speaker 1: this difficult conversation through, is that I feel my nerves 492 00:24:04,160 --> 00:24:08,600 Speaker 1: and I've started using different breathing techniques just to calm 493 00:24:08,600 --> 00:24:12,360 Speaker 1: myself down, just in those three to four minutes before 494 00:24:12,960 --> 00:24:17,000 Speaker 1: I connect with that person. Do you experience nerves before 495 00:24:17,040 --> 00:24:18,040 Speaker 1: these conversations? 496 00:24:18,080 --> 00:24:18,280 Speaker 2: Yeah? 497 00:24:18,320 --> 00:24:20,320 Speaker 1: I can't imagine you experiencing nerves. 498 00:24:21,040 --> 00:24:24,200 Speaker 2: I can't explain it. I do this other scenarios where 499 00:24:24,200 --> 00:24:28,520 Speaker 2: I feel nerves or nervous excitement, like when people explain 500 00:24:28,600 --> 00:24:32,359 Speaker 2: the negative nerves that the anxiety, the heart poplitation. I 501 00:24:32,359 --> 00:24:34,720 Speaker 2: don't think I've ever had that, or not in my 502 00:24:35,200 --> 00:24:37,600 Speaker 2: recent memory, ever had that. And the weird thing for 503 00:24:37,640 --> 00:24:39,960 Speaker 2: me is I'm actually the opposite of that. If I 504 00:24:40,000 --> 00:24:42,440 Speaker 2: can give them one insight that makes them more rounded 505 00:24:42,480 --> 00:24:45,160 Speaker 2: as a leader, that's the gift of the session. If 506 00:24:45,200 --> 00:24:46,919 Speaker 2: they hate me at the end of that, so be it. 507 00:24:46,960 --> 00:24:49,280 Speaker 2: I can't control their mood and feelings towards but I can't, 508 00:24:49,480 --> 00:24:51,280 Speaker 2: so I'm going to like I can influence it, can't 509 00:24:51,280 --> 00:24:53,800 Speaker 2: control it, but I can control whether I'm honest with 510 00:24:53,840 --> 00:24:55,639 Speaker 2: them or not. So if I'm honest with them and 511 00:24:55,680 --> 00:24:57,440 Speaker 2: I give them the gift of a bit of feedback 512 00:24:57,520 --> 00:25:00,320 Speaker 2: or an insight or a lesson or something that says, hey, 513 00:25:00,880 --> 00:25:02,600 Speaker 2: I think if you can find a way of building 514 00:25:02,600 --> 00:25:04,800 Speaker 2: this into your living style, I think you become a 515 00:25:04,840 --> 00:25:07,800 Speaker 2: more rounded leader. And here's why. Here's the example, here's 516 00:25:07,840 --> 00:25:11,320 Speaker 2: the scenario. Then I've done much job right. So it's 517 00:25:11,400 --> 00:25:14,000 Speaker 2: like a weird flip moment. But the nerves, I don't 518 00:25:14,000 --> 00:25:16,760 Speaker 2: know why. Maybe it's a weird child to think. I 519 00:25:16,840 --> 00:25:18,359 Speaker 2: just don't get nerves in those scenarios. 520 00:25:18,440 --> 00:25:21,719 Speaker 1: What you're saying around the reframing what you're about to 521 00:25:21,760 --> 00:25:25,440 Speaker 1: say as a gift. I like that, But what if 522 00:25:25,480 --> 00:25:29,520 Speaker 1: it's genuinely not? Like, what if it is just an 523 00:25:29,560 --> 00:25:33,959 Speaker 1: objectively crappy conversation like I'm sorry, we have to let 524 00:25:34,040 --> 00:25:36,159 Speaker 1: you go, or your performance is not up to scritch, 525 00:25:36,200 --> 00:25:39,199 Speaker 1: you are fired. Are you still finding a way to 526 00:25:39,280 --> 00:25:41,600 Speaker 1: see that as a gift because you're freeing them up 527 00:25:41,640 --> 00:25:43,679 Speaker 1: for the thing that they're meant to be doing. Like, 528 00:25:43,720 --> 00:25:44,920 Speaker 1: how are you viewing that? 529 00:25:45,040 --> 00:25:47,760 Speaker 2: The gifts in things? Sounds geeky right when you apply 530 00:25:47,800 --> 00:25:49,840 Speaker 2: to overy scenario. It sounds a bit tripe, right, But 531 00:25:50,280 --> 00:25:53,760 Speaker 2: I'm like, where do we use the word positive in 532 00:25:53,800 --> 00:25:56,520 Speaker 2: any negative situation? Are there some positives we can take 533 00:25:56,520 --> 00:25:59,359 Speaker 2: for it? Yeah? There are. Now whether you look at 534 00:25:59,359 --> 00:26:02,119 Speaker 2: those positives or not completely up to you. If you 535 00:26:02,160 --> 00:26:05,359 Speaker 2: don't just live in the negative, I think you're going 536 00:26:05,359 --> 00:26:07,960 Speaker 2: to spiral down. So that's your choice. But my choice 537 00:26:07,960 --> 00:26:09,480 Speaker 2: would be to lay in a little bit and not 538 00:26:10,040 --> 00:26:13,600 Speaker 2: a false positivity, but like honest positivity, which is, hey, 539 00:26:13,880 --> 00:26:17,119 Speaker 2: it didn't work out here, here's why my suggestions you 540 00:26:17,160 --> 00:26:18,680 Speaker 2: would be the next time you're looking for a job 541 00:26:18,680 --> 00:26:20,800 Speaker 2: in a different environment, look for these kind of facets. 542 00:26:20,800 --> 00:26:22,480 Speaker 2: I think you might do a little bit better in 543 00:26:22,480 --> 00:26:24,600 Speaker 2: this kind of environment rather than this one that didn't 544 00:26:24,600 --> 00:26:27,320 Speaker 2: really suit you. Right, they're not going to like that, 545 00:26:27,440 --> 00:26:29,840 Speaker 2: but I think that gives them something directionally to say, 546 00:26:30,119 --> 00:26:31,800 Speaker 2: you still need work, if you still need to keep 547 00:26:31,800 --> 00:26:33,639 Speaker 2: a roof over your head and feed your family and 548 00:26:33,720 --> 00:26:35,560 Speaker 2: whatever else. So when you go out for work and 549 00:26:35,600 --> 00:26:37,359 Speaker 2: I give you a suggestion about where you might find that, 550 00:26:37,600 --> 00:26:41,720 Speaker 2: right or next time, your attitude in these scenarios meant 551 00:26:41,760 --> 00:26:43,440 Speaker 2: that you were hard to work with, so no one 552 00:26:43,480 --> 00:26:45,880 Speaker 2: worked with you. Maybe having a think about why you're 553 00:26:45,880 --> 00:26:47,520 Speaker 2: turning up like that? Is there some where you can 554 00:26:47,520 --> 00:26:50,320 Speaker 2: get help from? Right? Is it some kind of counseling 555 00:26:50,359 --> 00:26:53,159 Speaker 2: service or mentor or character or, like you said, therapy 556 00:26:53,200 --> 00:26:55,440 Speaker 2: where you can go and understand why you are the 557 00:26:55,480 --> 00:26:58,280 Speaker 2: way you are. So with the harshest feedback of hat 558 00:26:58,359 --> 00:27:00,639 Speaker 2: even though it hurt, and even when from someone that 559 00:27:00,680 --> 00:27:03,080 Speaker 2: I didn't like, still had a grain of truth in it. 560 00:27:03,440 --> 00:27:06,119 Speaker 2: Now I could easily use the power of rastalization to go, 561 00:27:06,160 --> 00:27:07,680 Speaker 2: I don't like that person, so I'm going to choose 562 00:27:07,720 --> 00:27:10,639 Speaker 2: to ignore it and you go, or I can partner 563 00:27:10,680 --> 00:27:12,239 Speaker 2: the fact that I don't like them and go. They 564 00:27:12,280 --> 00:27:14,160 Speaker 2: still felt that way enough to say it out loud, 565 00:27:14,280 --> 00:27:16,320 Speaker 2: So maybe there's a grain of salt in it, and 566 00:27:16,359 --> 00:27:19,080 Speaker 2: maybe I should be a little bit reflective about why 567 00:27:19,080 --> 00:27:19,920 Speaker 2: it happened in that way. 568 00:27:20,000 --> 00:27:24,119 Speaker 1: How about during the conversation. And I know you're not 569 00:27:24,160 --> 00:27:27,080 Speaker 1: the biggest fan of frameworks, but you know sometimes they're 570 00:27:27,160 --> 00:27:29,000 Speaker 1: useful when it comes to delivering feedback. 571 00:27:29,080 --> 00:27:32,840 Speaker 2: Yeah, in a tough conversation, having some structure, like even 572 00:27:32,880 --> 00:27:34,600 Speaker 2: if it's like I want to spend twenty minutes here, 573 00:27:34,920 --> 00:27:37,040 Speaker 2: ten here and ten, anything like. 574 00:27:37,000 --> 00:27:41,399 Speaker 1: That just helps tell me what structure or framework or 575 00:27:41,520 --> 00:27:44,359 Speaker 1: kind of guidelines do you use when you're thinking about 576 00:27:44,600 --> 00:27:47,159 Speaker 1: how to deliver feedback to someone in a way that 577 00:27:47,200 --> 00:27:48,199 Speaker 1: they're really going to hear it. 578 00:27:48,520 --> 00:27:51,159 Speaker 2: The first most important thing for me is context, like 579 00:27:51,520 --> 00:27:54,000 Speaker 2: either me providing them context about why we're having the 580 00:27:54,040 --> 00:27:57,320 Speaker 2: conversation and all them providing me with context about where 581 00:27:57,320 --> 00:28:01,040 Speaker 2: they're at. And then as early as possible, here's a 582 00:28:01,080 --> 00:28:04,040 Speaker 2: set of facts. So the truth is, we had a 583 00:28:04,040 --> 00:28:07,280 Speaker 2: workshop together, and the objective of that workshop was to 584 00:28:07,320 --> 00:28:09,960 Speaker 2: get all of our stakeholders aligned on our mission? How 585 00:28:09,960 --> 00:28:12,359 Speaker 2: did you feel that when? And I say, okay, what 586 00:28:12,440 --> 00:28:15,520 Speaker 2: does the feedback sey? Because you feel like it went well, 587 00:28:15,640 --> 00:28:18,240 Speaker 2: But let's present the other fact. What did the feedback 588 00:28:18,280 --> 00:28:21,199 Speaker 2: say from the stakeholders? Oh, sixty percent of debt and 589 00:28:21,240 --> 00:28:23,760 Speaker 2: forty percent weren't that bothered? Okay? The data is telling 590 00:28:23,800 --> 00:28:25,640 Speaker 2: us that we didn't quite get there. If we had 591 00:28:25,640 --> 00:28:28,200 Speaker 2: our time again, what could we've done differently to get 592 00:28:28,320 --> 00:28:31,480 Speaker 2: more stakeholders on board of that workshop? Which stakeholders do 593 00:28:31,520 --> 00:28:33,480 Speaker 2: you think we missed? And then normally it's me giving 594 00:28:33,480 --> 00:28:36,880 Speaker 2: them some feedback around if to get that higher? Here's 595 00:28:36,920 --> 00:28:39,520 Speaker 2: three suggestions, right, here's something that we could do better 596 00:28:39,800 --> 00:28:42,440 Speaker 2: to drive that. What help do you need the next 597 00:28:42,440 --> 00:28:44,000 Speaker 2: time you were in a workshop? Because this is going 598 00:28:44,080 --> 00:28:46,680 Speaker 2: to happen again. That's always the part of the conversation 599 00:28:46,720 --> 00:28:48,719 Speaker 2: that I think gets missed. So I think we call 600 00:28:48,760 --> 00:28:50,560 Speaker 2: it a difficult conversation. Can we think about the bit 601 00:28:50,560 --> 00:28:52,880 Speaker 2: in the middle that here's why I have to tell 602 00:28:52,920 --> 00:28:56,160 Speaker 2: you the workshop didn't go well. We forget about why 603 00:28:56,160 --> 00:28:57,760 Speaker 2: do you think the workshop didn't go well? And we 604 00:28:57,800 --> 00:28:59,520 Speaker 2: forget about that? How can I help you do a 605 00:28:59,560 --> 00:29:02,400 Speaker 2: workshop it next time? We forget about those bits and go, 606 00:29:02,840 --> 00:29:04,920 Speaker 2: I'm plaed to give you some really bad news. And 607 00:29:04,960 --> 00:29:07,600 Speaker 2: so I think just just that that as a rough 608 00:29:07,640 --> 00:29:10,880 Speaker 2: structure for me, is a conversation, and it doesn't flow 609 00:29:10,880 --> 00:29:13,280 Speaker 2: in a linear fashion, right, I jump around, But they're 610 00:29:13,320 --> 00:29:15,120 Speaker 2: the elements that I'm trying to bring in. For for 611 00:29:15,240 --> 00:29:17,840 Speaker 2: any observation I share, there's got to be a so 612 00:29:18,000 --> 00:29:20,720 Speaker 2: what next time this happens? What are we going to 613 00:29:20,720 --> 00:29:23,480 Speaker 2: do differently? And if the answer is nothing, you've clearly 614 00:29:23,480 --> 00:29:24,360 Speaker 2: not heard the feedback. 615 00:29:24,680 --> 00:29:28,600 Speaker 1: So there's the shared context, there's the facts, there's the 616 00:29:28,640 --> 00:29:31,520 Speaker 1: feedback that emerges from the facts. 617 00:29:31,640 --> 00:29:34,560 Speaker 2: It has normally got like an asterisk of behavior m 618 00:29:35,400 --> 00:29:37,240 Speaker 2: as well. That's what I'm trying to bring in behavior. Right, 619 00:29:37,320 --> 00:29:40,040 Speaker 2: So in that workshop example, it's like when you didn't 620 00:29:40,080 --> 00:29:43,600 Speaker 2: engage with this specific stakeholder, That's why I think they 621 00:29:43,600 --> 00:29:46,680 Speaker 2: didn't score the workshop positively, right, They didn't feel like 622 00:29:46,720 --> 00:29:49,960 Speaker 2: they were engaged properly. So that the behavior was you 623 00:29:50,000 --> 00:29:51,720 Speaker 2: spoke to these three people that you know, well, you 624 00:29:51,760 --> 00:29:53,840 Speaker 2: forgot about the fourth person that you didn't know as well. 625 00:29:54,080 --> 00:29:55,760 Speaker 2: Did you realize you did that? In the workshop? You 626 00:29:55,800 --> 00:29:58,240 Speaker 2: spent more time with AB and C and not enough 627 00:29:58,240 --> 00:29:58,720 Speaker 2: time with D. 628 00:29:59,000 --> 00:30:02,240 Speaker 1: So then you're giving them advice and working at if 629 00:30:02,240 --> 00:30:06,040 Speaker 1: they essentially need help implementing that advice. Is there a 630 00:30:06,080 --> 00:30:10,640 Speaker 1: point where you're asking them to come up with their 631 00:30:10,680 --> 00:30:14,240 Speaker 1: own solutions? Does that happen between the feedback giving and 632 00:30:14,440 --> 00:30:15,480 Speaker 1: the advice giving. 633 00:30:15,560 --> 00:30:18,520 Speaker 2: Typically, it's normally the question of oh, the statement this 634 00:30:18,560 --> 00:30:20,920 Speaker 2: is going to happen again, So how did we achieve a 635 00:30:20,920 --> 00:30:23,320 Speaker 2: dif an outcome? Or if you had your time again, 636 00:30:23,360 --> 00:30:26,440 Speaker 2: how would you do it differently? Again? Going back through 637 00:30:26,480 --> 00:30:29,000 Speaker 2: that scenario can be quite helpful because it's not abstract, 638 00:30:29,160 --> 00:30:31,600 Speaker 2: it's real. It happened right as you could go, Oh, 639 00:30:31,840 --> 00:30:34,320 Speaker 2: if I had my time again after lunch, I think 640 00:30:34,360 --> 00:30:36,720 Speaker 2: I would have done another ice breaker and got I 641 00:30:36,720 --> 00:30:39,040 Speaker 2: would have sent those people were engaged. Or I could 642 00:30:39,040 --> 00:30:42,040 Speaker 2: have done a reflective exercise just before lunch. We could 643 00:30:42,080 --> 00:30:43,880 Speaker 2: have done thumbs right, how's the one feeling? And if 644 00:30:43,920 --> 00:30:45,960 Speaker 2: I would have picked the people that were thumb sideway 645 00:30:46,000 --> 00:30:48,600 Speaker 2: is not awesome? Not awful? I would have grabbed them 646 00:30:48,640 --> 00:30:51,280 Speaker 2: at lunch time and checked in why and course corrected right, 647 00:30:51,440 --> 00:30:53,480 Speaker 2: See like, oh, can we do that next time? Because 648 00:30:53,480 --> 00:30:55,760 Speaker 2: they all sound very dual? Yes we can. Cool, let's 649 00:30:55,800 --> 00:30:58,080 Speaker 2: do those next time? Right, So now we set a 650 00:30:58,120 --> 00:31:01,720 Speaker 2: new expectation of how we're going to perform, rather than 651 00:31:02,560 --> 00:31:06,880 Speaker 2: you didn't perform, So we use the inspiration, right, the 652 00:31:06,920 --> 00:31:11,120 Speaker 2: trigger of it didn't go well, that's the trigger. The 653 00:31:11,160 --> 00:31:14,680 Speaker 2: purpose of the conversation, though, isn't that The purpose of 654 00:31:14,680 --> 00:31:17,040 Speaker 2: the conversation is how do we make it better next time? 655 00:31:17,120 --> 00:31:19,360 Speaker 2: That's the only point of having the conversation. If all 656 00:31:19,400 --> 00:31:21,080 Speaker 2: I do is tell you about it something I've just 657 00:31:21,160 --> 00:31:23,240 Speaker 2: buried you. I've not made you a better person, I've 658 00:31:23,240 --> 00:31:24,080 Speaker 2: made you a worse person. 659 00:31:24,320 --> 00:31:27,640 Speaker 1: What do you do after the conversation, Because that sounds 660 00:31:27,800 --> 00:31:30,720 Speaker 1: like a really productive conversation that you're having. What is 661 00:31:30,840 --> 00:31:35,120 Speaker 1: your role as the feedback giver in making sure that 662 00:31:35,160 --> 00:31:37,719 Speaker 1: behavior does change for the better and that you're not 663 00:31:37,760 --> 00:31:39,960 Speaker 1: sitting with that person a month later with the exact 664 00:31:39,960 --> 00:31:40,720 Speaker 1: same feedback. 665 00:31:40,920 --> 00:31:42,600 Speaker 2: Yeah, there was one a while ago, probably out a 666 00:31:42,640 --> 00:31:44,240 Speaker 2: year ago. I set the person just so you know, 667 00:31:44,280 --> 00:31:47,600 Speaker 2: that wasn't an enjoyable conversation for me. I don't want 668 00:31:47,640 --> 00:31:49,880 Speaker 2: to be having this conversation again in six months time. 669 00:31:50,480 --> 00:31:52,800 Speaker 2: So what do I need to do or what do 670 00:31:52,880 --> 00:31:54,960 Speaker 2: we need to do? Like this? There's accountability on both 671 00:31:55,040 --> 00:31:56,600 Speaker 2: us here because I don't want to be doing this 672 00:31:56,680 --> 00:31:58,720 Speaker 2: dance again. It's not it's not a great use of 673 00:31:58,720 --> 00:31:59,959 Speaker 2: my sumon, and I think it's a great use of your. 674 00:32:00,360 --> 00:32:02,800 Speaker 2: Neithers are in a great mood after it. It was important, 675 00:32:03,320 --> 00:32:06,040 Speaker 2: but it wasn't a high five or round bouncy conversation. 676 00:32:06,160 --> 00:32:07,760 Speaker 2: And then what we came out with there was we 677 00:32:07,840 --> 00:32:10,520 Speaker 2: agreed milestones, so it wasn't just actually, it's like, Hey, 678 00:32:10,760 --> 00:32:12,520 Speaker 2: here's the things I'm going to go away and try 679 00:32:12,560 --> 00:32:15,760 Speaker 2: in the next four weeks. Let's check it in four 680 00:32:15,800 --> 00:32:18,479 Speaker 2: weeks time. I was like, ooh, what progress do you 681 00:32:18,520 --> 00:32:19,840 Speaker 2: think you will have made in four weeks that I 682 00:32:19,880 --> 00:32:23,040 Speaker 2: can hold you account before you helped set my expectation 683 00:32:23,120 --> 00:32:24,800 Speaker 2: of what I should see, because you're not going to 684 00:32:24,840 --> 00:32:28,000 Speaker 2: have miraculously changed, but like, what does progress look like 685 00:32:28,040 --> 00:32:30,560 Speaker 2: at that milestone? And then at the two months and 686 00:32:30,600 --> 00:32:32,600 Speaker 2: the three like and we agreed that that was a 687 00:32:32,600 --> 00:32:35,840 Speaker 2: healthy conversation that they also included some feedback for me 688 00:32:35,880 --> 00:32:38,440 Speaker 2: in there that they didn't feel I'd been particularly clear 689 00:32:38,480 --> 00:32:41,400 Speaker 2: in my expectation. I was like, good feedback. And then 690 00:32:41,440 --> 00:32:44,000 Speaker 2: we talked about the anti pattern, so I was like, hey, 691 00:32:44,440 --> 00:32:46,840 Speaker 2: the anti patter here is next time you're in a workshop, 692 00:32:47,200 --> 00:32:49,440 Speaker 2: I dive in and run it. That's the anti pat 693 00:32:49,680 --> 00:32:51,880 Speaker 2: No one's won there. I've used my time on something 694 00:32:51,960 --> 00:32:54,720 Speaker 2: that I shouldn't be doing. You've lost control of the situation. 695 00:32:54,840 --> 00:32:58,280 Speaker 2: So you feel kind of disengaged, right, kind of not 696 00:32:58,360 --> 00:33:01,280 Speaker 2: very empowered, and we should agree that that's the anti pattern. 697 00:33:01,480 --> 00:33:04,800 Speaker 1: Anti pattern. I've never heard that term before. Anti pattern. 698 00:33:04,920 --> 00:33:07,320 Speaker 2: Yeah, we use it all the time to go how 699 00:33:07,320 --> 00:33:10,640 Speaker 2: do we call out the inadvertent bad behavior or the 700 00:33:10,680 --> 00:33:13,920 Speaker 2: negative thing? Right, So it's just a healthy way of going. 701 00:33:13,960 --> 00:33:16,200 Speaker 2: Every way of working has a set of consequences that 702 00:33:16,240 --> 00:33:17,920 Speaker 2: we can't always see. So you're like, oh, let's see them, 703 00:33:17,960 --> 00:33:20,760 Speaker 2: let's call them out. What might go wrong here and 704 00:33:20,800 --> 00:33:23,120 Speaker 2: therefore let's call that out now. It reduces the chance 705 00:33:23,160 --> 00:33:23,680 Speaker 2: to be happening. 706 00:33:24,600 --> 00:33:27,280 Speaker 1: I want to circle back to something that we touched 707 00:33:27,280 --> 00:33:29,640 Speaker 1: on right at the beginning, which is around psych safety. 708 00:33:30,240 --> 00:33:34,960 Speaker 1: How then have you coached, say, other people you know 709 00:33:35,040 --> 00:33:38,920 Speaker 1: within your workplace or people that you help where they 710 00:33:39,240 --> 00:33:42,640 Speaker 1: maybe need to have a difficult conversation with someone that 711 00:33:42,760 --> 00:33:46,040 Speaker 1: is higher up in the hierarchy. But they're saying, dom, 712 00:33:46,120 --> 00:33:49,680 Speaker 1: I just don't feel psychologically safe. What advice do you 713 00:33:49,680 --> 00:33:50,120 Speaker 1: give them. 714 00:33:50,240 --> 00:33:53,600 Speaker 2: It's normally a question of what's your intended outcome here? 715 00:33:54,080 --> 00:33:57,440 Speaker 2: What's the real goal? Then it's taught me through this situation, 716 00:33:57,680 --> 00:34:00,400 Speaker 2: give me the examples what happened like, and that's me 717 00:34:00,880 --> 00:34:03,840 Speaker 2: sense checking their examples to their goal, right, which are 718 00:34:03,880 --> 00:34:06,480 Speaker 2: almost always out of kill teth like, my goal is 719 00:34:06,800 --> 00:34:08,239 Speaker 2: it's a gift. Don't want to help them be a 720 00:34:08,239 --> 00:34:10,239 Speaker 2: better leader. And you're like and then I'm like cool, 721 00:34:10,360 --> 00:34:11,920 Speaker 2: like told me to the example of life and they 722 00:34:11,920 --> 00:34:13,680 Speaker 2: said this, and they said that, and you're like, that's 723 00:34:14,120 --> 00:34:16,160 Speaker 2: basically you've become a gossip and you're trying to diminish 724 00:34:16,200 --> 00:34:19,760 Speaker 2: the person. So is there's clearly a power issue dynamic 725 00:34:19,840 --> 00:34:23,120 Speaker 2: or a political dynamic here that that you're not talking 726 00:34:23,120 --> 00:34:25,520 Speaker 2: to me about that that's there, right, and that's part 727 00:34:25,520 --> 00:34:27,319 Speaker 2: of the coaching to go, hey, if you went into 728 00:34:27,360 --> 00:34:30,840 Speaker 2: that conversation that way, everyone's a loser. Right. So there's 729 00:34:30,840 --> 00:34:33,640 Speaker 2: the lose loose scenario. They feel like, crap, they've lost 730 00:34:33,640 --> 00:34:34,759 Speaker 2: all faith in you. You're not going to give me 731 00:34:34,800 --> 00:34:36,520 Speaker 2: on a project again, they don't want to work with you. 732 00:34:36,560 --> 00:34:39,040 Speaker 2: That's you pay rise Like, that's a lose lose. What 733 00:34:39,120 --> 00:34:42,000 Speaker 2: does the win win? Look like right, and what might 734 00:34:42,040 --> 00:34:45,239 Speaker 2: be the scenarios where you help them and they help you, 735 00:34:45,719 --> 00:34:50,080 Speaker 2: and where your relationship has improved from that conversation not deteriorated. 736 00:34:50,600 --> 00:34:52,680 Speaker 2: And that's hard because when you look at those conversations 737 00:34:52,719 --> 00:34:55,960 Speaker 2: play out, the majority of them are a deterioration of 738 00:34:56,080 --> 00:34:59,680 Speaker 2: relationship versus going if my intent here is to build 739 00:34:59,719 --> 00:35:03,560 Speaker 2: bamb and fix the relationship, how might I turn up 740 00:35:04,120 --> 00:35:06,000 Speaker 2: to help do that? Right? And it's it's kind of 741 00:35:06,000 --> 00:35:09,680 Speaker 2: the old school Olive branch. I often in those situations 742 00:35:09,719 --> 00:35:12,799 Speaker 2: like I'm going to go first, right, So I'm going 743 00:35:12,880 --> 00:35:15,040 Speaker 2: to walk up to that person, go hey, I know 744 00:35:15,080 --> 00:35:17,360 Speaker 2: there's been a few scenarios where we work together and 745 00:35:17,440 --> 00:35:19,400 Speaker 2: I've pissed you off. I want to level that, like, 746 00:35:19,600 --> 00:35:22,600 Speaker 2: here's what happened, here's why, here's a situation. I'm not 747 00:35:22,680 --> 00:35:25,200 Speaker 2: right for doing it, but it happened, and I go that. However, 748 00:35:25,320 --> 00:35:26,879 Speaker 2: one of the things I've really loved to talk to you about, 749 00:35:26,920 --> 00:35:28,799 Speaker 2: if that's okay, is a few of the things I've 750 00:35:28,800 --> 00:35:31,200 Speaker 2: found how you've interacted that haven't got the best out 751 00:35:31,239 --> 00:35:33,799 Speaker 2: of me. Is that a conversation you'd be will't haveing it? 752 00:35:33,800 --> 00:35:35,680 Speaker 2: And if so, when right? But I've gone first with 753 00:35:35,719 --> 00:35:39,440 Speaker 2: my olive branch, so I've presented some safety, whereas I 754 00:35:39,480 --> 00:35:42,240 Speaker 2: think sometimes we turn up in those conversations like we're perfect, 755 00:35:42,840 --> 00:35:46,040 Speaker 2: like I'm amazing, I'm here to let you know your frailties. 756 00:35:46,520 --> 00:35:49,120 Speaker 2: That's not cool, that's that's not going to work. Like 757 00:35:49,200 --> 00:35:51,480 Speaker 2: I'm great and you're mediocre, and it's just a matter 758 00:35:51,520 --> 00:35:53,640 Speaker 2: of time until I tell you that that's not a 759 00:35:53,680 --> 00:35:57,319 Speaker 2: relationship building conversation, it's a relationship destroying conversations. So I 760 00:35:57,320 --> 00:35:59,600 Speaker 2: think we're going to be really careful with language and intent. 761 00:36:00,080 --> 00:36:02,399 Speaker 1: I love that, Dom, Dom. I wish i'd had this 762 00:36:02,520 --> 00:36:05,799 Speaker 1: conversation many years ago. I feel like there have been 763 00:36:05,800 --> 00:36:08,800 Speaker 1: many instances where I would have loved to have channel 764 00:36:08,920 --> 00:36:13,160 Speaker 1: your advice. So thank you so much for sharing so generously. 765 00:36:13,520 --> 00:36:17,400 Speaker 1: I know I'm definitely taking away a lot of practical tips. 766 00:36:17,880 --> 00:36:19,040 Speaker 2: I can't wait for your feedback. 767 00:36:20,320 --> 00:36:22,680 Speaker 1: I hope you'll love this chat with Dom as much 768 00:36:22,719 --> 00:36:25,279 Speaker 1: as I did. I know that I'll be trying out 769 00:36:25,320 --> 00:36:28,000 Speaker 1: a few of these techniques and ideas when preparing for 770 00:36:28,160 --> 00:36:32,040 Speaker 1: my next difficult conversation. And if you're keen to find 771 00:36:32,040 --> 00:36:34,480 Speaker 1: out more about Dom, you can find a link to 772 00:36:34,560 --> 00:36:38,520 Speaker 1: his website and social media channels in the show notes. 773 00:36:38,719 --> 00:36:41,440 Speaker 1: If you like today's show, make sure you hit follow 774 00:36:41,560 --> 00:36:45,080 Speaker 1: on your podcast app to be alerted when new episodes drop. 775 00:36:45,640 --> 00:36:48,120 Speaker 1: How I Work was recorded on the traditional land of 776 00:36:48,160 --> 00:36:50,359 Speaker 1: the Warrangery people, part of the cool And Nation.