1 00:00:01,440 --> 00:00:03,800 Speaker 1: It's the Happy Family's podcast. 2 00:00:04,960 --> 00:00:09,080 Speaker 2: Today's conversation is not a conversation for kids. We encourage 3 00:00:09,119 --> 00:00:12,240 Speaker 2: parents to make sure that you're aware of who's listening 4 00:00:12,240 --> 00:00:16,440 Speaker 2: to this discussion and make sure that only mature years 5 00:00:16,720 --> 00:00:21,919 Speaker 2: are participating in today's Happy Families podcasts. Hello, my name's Sobs. 6 00:00:22,040 --> 00:00:24,200 Speaker 2: Justin course, I'm here with my wife and mom to 7 00:00:24,280 --> 00:00:28,680 Speaker 2: our six daughters, Kylie, missus Happy Families. By now, you 8 00:00:28,720 --> 00:00:30,479 Speaker 2: would probably be well aware if you listened to a 9 00:00:30,520 --> 00:00:32,360 Speaker 2: podcast or follow us on social media, that we've had 10 00:00:32,360 --> 00:00:35,320 Speaker 2: a pretty rough week. Yesterday's podcast was one of the 11 00:00:35,360 --> 00:00:38,680 Speaker 2: most important conversations we may have ever had on the podcast. 12 00:00:38,760 --> 00:00:40,040 Speaker 1: I hope that you've got a lot from it. 13 00:00:40,800 --> 00:00:46,880 Speaker 2: When I posted about my nephew's death last week, we 14 00:00:46,880 --> 00:00:53,560 Speaker 2: were overwhelmed with the incredible volume of support but also 15 00:00:53,720 --> 00:00:58,279 Speaker 2: grief that was shown on those social media platforms, on 16 00:00:58,280 --> 00:01:01,440 Speaker 2: Facebook and on Instagram. And one thing that we saw 17 00:01:02,520 --> 00:01:05,000 Speaker 2: more than perhaps anything, is just how many people have 18 00:01:05,080 --> 00:01:11,520 Speaker 2: been touched by profound loss through suicide. Many, many, many 19 00:01:11,520 --> 00:01:13,560 Speaker 2: people said to us, how do we talk to our 20 00:01:13,640 --> 00:01:16,440 Speaker 2: kids about this? And so that's what we're going to 21 00:01:16,640 --> 00:01:21,760 Speaker 2: attempt to answer in today's conversation and because we try 22 00:01:22,280 --> 00:01:25,480 Speaker 2: on this podcast to make this a podcast for time 23 00:01:25,520 --> 00:01:28,200 Speaker 2: poor parents who do just want answers. Now, we're going 24 00:01:28,240 --> 00:01:30,520 Speaker 2: to do our best to move through this at a 25 00:01:30,560 --> 00:01:34,240 Speaker 2: pace that is respectful and considered, but that also is 26 00:01:34,480 --> 00:01:36,679 Speaker 2: very much about getting straight to the point. 27 00:01:37,280 --> 00:01:40,280 Speaker 3: I think this is a conversation that nobody wants to 28 00:01:40,280 --> 00:01:44,240 Speaker 3: be having with anyone, but especially your children. And you 29 00:01:44,280 --> 00:01:47,000 Speaker 3: think about your job as a parent, it's to protect 30 00:01:47,040 --> 00:01:50,320 Speaker 3: them and to have to open their eyes and hearts 31 00:01:50,440 --> 00:01:55,560 Speaker 3: up to just the pain of these kinds of conversations. 32 00:01:55,560 --> 00:01:56,760 Speaker 3: It's really hard. 33 00:01:56,880 --> 00:01:59,440 Speaker 2: So we've had several of these conversations over the last 34 00:01:59,520 --> 00:02:01,720 Speaker 2: few days, as you would probably be aware, with that 35 00:02:01,760 --> 00:02:05,320 Speaker 2: many kids and that many questions, so let's dive into it. 36 00:02:05,400 --> 00:02:07,960 Speaker 2: Lots of people have been asking. And I should also 37 00:02:08,040 --> 00:02:11,000 Speaker 2: mention the principles that we're sharing will apply across the 38 00:02:11,040 --> 00:02:13,920 Speaker 2: board when it comes to talking about profound loss and 39 00:02:13,919 --> 00:02:17,520 Speaker 2: specifically suicide with your children. But the closer you are 40 00:02:17,680 --> 00:02:21,720 Speaker 2: to the pain and the grief, the more these things 41 00:02:21,760 --> 00:02:24,600 Speaker 2: will be helpful. If you are at a distance and 42 00:02:24,639 --> 00:02:26,600 Speaker 2: it's a friend of a friend or your children over 43 00:02:26,639 --> 00:02:29,160 Speaker 2: here something, then you'll probably be able to go a 44 00:02:29,160 --> 00:02:32,040 Speaker 2: lot lighter on the things that we're talking about. Nevertheless, 45 00:02:32,040 --> 00:02:33,840 Speaker 2: the same principles will apply, and it will be up 46 00:02:33,840 --> 00:02:36,640 Speaker 2: to you as a parent to use your discretion to 47 00:02:36,800 --> 00:02:40,880 Speaker 2: step into these conversations wisely and with so much compassion. 48 00:02:41,520 --> 00:02:43,200 Speaker 2: The first thing that I want to emphasize is that 49 00:02:43,240 --> 00:02:46,639 Speaker 2: we have limited research evidence on how to conduct these conversations, 50 00:02:46,760 --> 00:02:49,400 Speaker 2: specifically on this topic. Now, there's plenty of research out 51 00:02:49,440 --> 00:02:51,840 Speaker 2: there about how to have difficult conversations, and that's what 52 00:02:51,840 --> 00:02:54,560 Speaker 2: we're primarily going to lean on. There is only a 53 00:02:54,560 --> 00:02:57,560 Speaker 2: little bit of evidence that's out there is not particularly strong, 54 00:02:57,560 --> 00:03:00,320 Speaker 2: and I guess we can be grateful for that. If 55 00:03:00,360 --> 00:03:03,560 Speaker 2: there's no need to have the conversation, I would actually 56 00:03:04,160 --> 00:03:06,920 Speaker 2: discourage you from having one. And there are plenty of 57 00:03:06,960 --> 00:03:09,680 Speaker 2: times where there might not be a need. For example, 58 00:03:10,000 --> 00:03:13,320 Speaker 2: there may be considerable distance between the person who has 59 00:03:13,520 --> 00:03:16,480 Speaker 2: died and your child. They may not even be aware 60 00:03:16,520 --> 00:03:19,480 Speaker 2: of them. Or there may be just a cursory discussion 61 00:03:19,520 --> 00:03:22,720 Speaker 2: where we can say, yes, we're really sad because a 62 00:03:22,760 --> 00:03:25,960 Speaker 2: friend of ours has passed away, has died, and that's 63 00:03:26,080 --> 00:03:29,240 Speaker 2: kind of all you need to do when there is distance. 64 00:03:29,800 --> 00:03:33,160 Speaker 2: As the relationship gets closer, that's when we obviously begin 65 00:03:33,200 --> 00:03:34,960 Speaker 2: to address it. I guess the other thing that I'd 66 00:03:34,960 --> 00:03:38,160 Speaker 2: say as a preliminary discussion point is we really want 67 00:03:38,200 --> 00:03:38,880 Speaker 2: to keep at level. 68 00:03:39,680 --> 00:03:41,040 Speaker 1: Suicide can provoke. 69 00:03:41,200 --> 00:03:44,720 Speaker 2: Very strong reactions in us, and even in our children. 70 00:03:45,200 --> 00:03:51,279 Speaker 2: It seems that there's a visceral and immediately recognized understanding 71 00:03:51,360 --> 00:03:53,520 Speaker 2: that what we're talking about is serious. 72 00:03:54,800 --> 00:03:57,320 Speaker 3: I think, from my end, the most important thing for 73 00:03:57,400 --> 00:04:01,960 Speaker 3: me was that our relationships with children are built on trust, 74 00:04:02,520 --> 00:04:06,200 Speaker 3: and that while these conversations are really hard, honesty is 75 00:04:06,240 --> 00:04:07,040 Speaker 3: really important. 76 00:04:07,440 --> 00:04:10,920 Speaker 2: I've always defined trust as believing that the other person 77 00:04:10,960 --> 00:04:13,360 Speaker 2: is going to act in your best interests, and in 78 00:04:13,400 --> 00:04:16,120 Speaker 2: conversations like these, our children need to really believe that 79 00:04:16,279 --> 00:04:18,600 Speaker 2: we are going to act in their best interests. And 80 00:04:19,200 --> 00:04:21,599 Speaker 2: all of the research evidence from places like the National 81 00:04:21,680 --> 00:04:24,640 Speaker 2: Scent of Childhood Grief. I've looked up so many research 82 00:04:24,720 --> 00:04:27,680 Speaker 2: articles and so many tip sheets and fact sheets on this, 83 00:04:27,920 --> 00:04:32,000 Speaker 2: and every single university, every single psychology clinic, everyone who's 84 00:04:32,040 --> 00:04:35,719 Speaker 2: out there consistently says honesty is the best policy. 85 00:04:35,920 --> 00:04:38,480 Speaker 3: I think it's showing our children that we actually honor 86 00:04:39,120 --> 00:04:42,960 Speaker 3: the questions that they have. They need to know that 87 00:04:43,600 --> 00:04:47,080 Speaker 3: as their parents, we're willing to go to the hard 88 00:04:47,120 --> 00:04:50,200 Speaker 3: places to help them understand the world better. 89 00:04:50,560 --> 00:04:54,960 Speaker 2: The real trick is doing it in an age appropriate way. 90 00:04:55,160 --> 00:04:57,440 Speaker 2: It has to be developmentally appropriate. So let's talk about 91 00:04:57,440 --> 00:05:01,359 Speaker 2: some developmental realities here. We'll start with youngest children for 92 00:05:01,480 --> 00:05:04,480 Speaker 2: young children, and I'm talking about kids under six or seven. 93 00:05:04,920 --> 00:05:07,200 Speaker 2: So when we've got two and three and four year olds, 94 00:05:07,480 --> 00:05:10,760 Speaker 2: you can almost say nothing. I mean literally, they're just 95 00:05:10,960 --> 00:05:13,359 Speaker 2: not going to be attentive enough and picking up on 96 00:05:13,400 --> 00:05:16,240 Speaker 2: it unless it's somebody within their immediate family or somebody 97 00:05:16,279 --> 00:05:19,000 Speaker 2: that they were extremely close to. Let's assume though, that 98 00:05:19,040 --> 00:05:22,440 Speaker 2: it is somebody that they're extremely close to keep it 99 00:05:22,480 --> 00:05:25,800 Speaker 2: simple and go with what I call the fire hose principle. 100 00:05:26,480 --> 00:05:29,040 Speaker 2: I've shared this in a variety of different contexts over 101 00:05:29,080 --> 00:05:31,760 Speaker 2: the years on the podcast and elsewhere, but essentially, if 102 00:05:31,760 --> 00:05:34,960 Speaker 2: somebody's thirsty, it would be rare that we would hand 103 00:05:35,000 --> 00:05:38,039 Speaker 2: them the fire hose, tell them to open up their mouth, 104 00:05:38,560 --> 00:05:40,680 Speaker 2: and then crank that bad boy up. That's going to 105 00:05:40,800 --> 00:05:44,120 Speaker 2: cause potentially a whole lot of damage, and it's certainly 106 00:05:44,400 --> 00:05:47,800 Speaker 2: going to do anything except quench their first. Our job 107 00:05:47,920 --> 00:05:51,440 Speaker 2: as parents is not to tell them everything, and the 108 00:05:51,480 --> 00:05:53,560 Speaker 2: younger they are, the more this principle applies, But even 109 00:05:53,600 --> 00:05:56,080 Speaker 2: as they get older, we still need to be judicious 110 00:05:56,160 --> 00:05:57,520 Speaker 2: and discerning in. 111 00:05:57,440 --> 00:05:58,080 Speaker 1: What we say. 112 00:05:58,680 --> 00:06:01,479 Speaker 2: Rather than turning on the fire hosey. It's much better 113 00:06:01,480 --> 00:06:04,000 Speaker 2: when somebody says I'm thirsty to give them a glass 114 00:06:04,040 --> 00:06:07,840 Speaker 2: of water, and once they've completed that glass of water, 115 00:06:08,279 --> 00:06:11,680 Speaker 2: simply to say would you like any more water? And 116 00:06:11,720 --> 00:06:13,400 Speaker 2: refill it or give them a half a cup or 117 00:06:13,400 --> 00:06:13,880 Speaker 2: whatever it. 118 00:06:13,800 --> 00:06:14,400 Speaker 1: Is that they need. 119 00:06:15,000 --> 00:06:17,960 Speaker 2: When it comes to talking about difficult topics, and particularly 120 00:06:18,040 --> 00:06:21,680 Speaker 2: a topic such as suicide, the fire hose principle applies. 121 00:06:22,200 --> 00:06:24,440 Speaker 2: Give them a sip, and if they ask for another sip, 122 00:06:24,680 --> 00:06:28,680 Speaker 2: let them have that. Our children will have questions. We 123 00:06:28,720 --> 00:06:31,760 Speaker 2: should answer those questions in a developmentally appropriate way to 124 00:06:31,839 --> 00:06:34,960 Speaker 2: the degree that they're curious. But no further, they may 125 00:06:35,000 --> 00:06:37,240 Speaker 2: say something like what does dead mean? I mean, if 126 00:06:37,240 --> 00:06:40,120 Speaker 2: they're young enough, they may not. Children don't understand the 127 00:06:40,160 --> 00:06:43,160 Speaker 2: permanency of death, especially when they're around that three or 128 00:06:43,240 --> 00:06:46,440 Speaker 2: four age group. It's once they get four or five, six, yeah, 129 00:06:46,440 --> 00:06:48,200 Speaker 2: when they come back. And that's why it's important that 130 00:06:48,200 --> 00:06:52,080 Speaker 2: we don't use phrases like gone to sleep or gone away. 131 00:06:52,480 --> 00:06:53,880 Speaker 1: We need to be much more concrete. 132 00:06:53,880 --> 00:06:55,960 Speaker 2: In fact, when I wrote the article that went on 133 00:06:56,000 --> 00:06:58,159 Speaker 2: to social media and was obviously seen by so many 134 00:06:58,160 --> 00:07:02,279 Speaker 2: people after it was partly the hardest sentence for me 135 00:07:02,320 --> 00:07:04,760 Speaker 2: to write and then to read and to have my 136 00:07:04,960 --> 00:07:09,320 Speaker 2: parents and my siblings and my nieces and nephews read, 137 00:07:09,680 --> 00:07:11,160 Speaker 2: was the Three Woods. 138 00:07:11,480 --> 00:07:12,320 Speaker 1: Because he's dead. 139 00:07:13,240 --> 00:07:18,960 Speaker 2: And yet those words matter in being straightforward and simple 140 00:07:19,360 --> 00:07:22,200 Speaker 2: and truthful with our kids. If they're young, you might say, 141 00:07:22,240 --> 00:07:24,080 Speaker 2: do you know what being dead means? And you can 142 00:07:24,080 --> 00:07:26,680 Speaker 2: give them examples of a pet that died, or perhaps 143 00:07:26,720 --> 00:07:30,040 Speaker 2: grandparents or an auntie or uncle that died, but they 144 00:07:30,040 --> 00:07:32,200 Speaker 2: need to understand what dead means. And when it comes 145 00:07:32,200 --> 00:07:34,720 Speaker 2: to something like suicide, it's completely appropriate for you to 146 00:07:34,760 --> 00:07:38,160 Speaker 2: say something like, this person had a disease in their 147 00:07:38,240 --> 00:07:42,560 Speaker 2: head and they died. It's very sad. Now, a statement 148 00:07:42,640 --> 00:07:45,760 Speaker 2: like that is truthful. We know that things like depression 149 00:07:46,680 --> 00:07:49,520 Speaker 2: are diseases of the mind, and when we say that 150 00:07:49,600 --> 00:07:51,600 Speaker 2: for a young child, that can often be enough. Now, 151 00:07:51,600 --> 00:07:53,720 Speaker 2: as they get older, if that stays with them and 152 00:07:53,760 --> 00:07:55,720 Speaker 2: they contemplate it, they may come back to us and say, 153 00:07:55,880 --> 00:07:57,000 Speaker 2: how what does that mean? 154 00:07:57,040 --> 00:07:58,480 Speaker 1: What does a disease in my head mean? 155 00:07:58,600 --> 00:08:00,440 Speaker 2: Can I get a disease in my head, and then 156 00:08:00,440 --> 00:08:04,960 Speaker 2: they're looking more for empathy than they are looking for definite, 157 00:08:05,040 --> 00:08:07,200 Speaker 2: clear answers, and they need a little bit of both. 158 00:08:07,320 --> 00:08:10,080 Speaker 2: In those circumstances, we want to answer them honestly, but 159 00:08:10,120 --> 00:08:12,880 Speaker 2: with lots of empathy. But for young children, those would 160 00:08:12,920 --> 00:08:15,920 Speaker 2: be my central points. Keep it really simple, use the 161 00:08:16,000 --> 00:08:18,680 Speaker 2: principle of the fire hose, make sure that they understand 162 00:08:18,680 --> 00:08:23,800 Speaker 2: what being dead means, and emphasize that this person had 163 00:08:23,880 --> 00:08:26,360 Speaker 2: a disease in their head and they died, and everybody's 164 00:08:26,440 --> 00:08:27,200 Speaker 2: very sad about that. 165 00:08:27,920 --> 00:08:29,720 Speaker 3: I was kind of hoping that that's what we'd get 166 00:08:29,720 --> 00:08:34,800 Speaker 3: away with our nine year old when we received the 167 00:08:34,840 --> 00:08:38,840 Speaker 3: devastating news last week, but that wasn't the case. When 168 00:08:38,840 --> 00:08:40,800 Speaker 3: we first found out, we just let her know that 169 00:08:40,880 --> 00:08:43,680 Speaker 3: her cousin had passed away and left it at that, 170 00:08:43,960 --> 00:08:46,280 Speaker 3: and she was okay. But as the day wore on 171 00:08:46,520 --> 00:08:50,640 Speaker 3: and the conversations between her sisters and us continued and 172 00:08:50,760 --> 00:08:56,160 Speaker 3: the gravity of the loss was felt, she knew that 173 00:08:56,240 --> 00:09:01,160 Speaker 3: this was actually different. It was different, a difference to 174 00:09:01,200 --> 00:09:04,440 Speaker 3: the grief that we were experiencing in our home, and 175 00:09:04,600 --> 00:09:08,720 Speaker 3: sitting around the dinner table, she wanted to know what happened, 176 00:09:09,000 --> 00:09:12,520 Speaker 3: and she actually asked how did he die? And that 177 00:09:12,600 --> 00:09:15,680 Speaker 3: was a really hard conversation to have, but I knew 178 00:09:16,400 --> 00:09:17,959 Speaker 3: that in spite of the fact that I wanted to 179 00:09:18,000 --> 00:09:20,480 Speaker 3: protect her, I actually needed to be honest with her. 180 00:09:21,800 --> 00:09:24,480 Speaker 2: So let's build on what we've talked about. For young children, 181 00:09:24,640 --> 00:09:28,000 Speaker 2: those same principles apply. We want to keep it simple, 182 00:09:28,320 --> 00:09:30,120 Speaker 2: we want to use the principle of the fire hose, 183 00:09:30,600 --> 00:09:33,560 Speaker 2: and we want to make sure that they understand the 184 00:09:33,640 --> 00:09:36,400 Speaker 2: meanings of the words. You were masterful. As we sat 185 00:09:36,440 --> 00:09:40,040 Speaker 2: around the dining table last Monday night, the first thing 186 00:09:40,120 --> 00:09:42,400 Speaker 2: that we did was we said to the children, everybody's 187 00:09:42,400 --> 00:09:44,920 Speaker 2: had a pretty rough day. It's been a really, really 188 00:09:44,920 --> 00:09:48,880 Speaker 2: bumpy day for us emotionally. Does anybody have any questions? 189 00:09:49,880 --> 00:09:53,040 Speaker 2: And the first question to come up came from Emily 190 00:09:53,440 --> 00:09:56,920 Speaker 2: middle childhood. We're talking about kids seven to twelve. She's 191 00:09:57,040 --> 00:10:01,000 Speaker 2: right in the center of that, age nine, and she's said, 192 00:10:01,480 --> 00:10:04,040 Speaker 2: how did he die? And that's when you, instead of 193 00:10:04,080 --> 00:10:07,560 Speaker 2: just diving in and answering the question, asked her a question, 194 00:10:08,360 --> 00:10:10,960 Speaker 2: have you ever heard of suicide? Do you know what 195 00:10:11,000 --> 00:10:15,520 Speaker 2: suicide means? She was hesitant and unsure, but she took 196 00:10:15,559 --> 00:10:18,160 Speaker 2: a guess and she was right. She didn't know what 197 00:10:18,200 --> 00:10:21,600 Speaker 2: it meant, and so we began a conversation about how 198 00:10:21,679 --> 00:10:23,280 Speaker 2: that was how Logan had died. 199 00:10:24,480 --> 00:10:27,920 Speaker 1: But then she wanted more detail. She said, how did 200 00:10:27,960 --> 00:10:28,400 Speaker 1: he do it? 201 00:10:28,960 --> 00:10:31,520 Speaker 2: And once again, based on all the very best research 202 00:10:31,559 --> 00:10:33,160 Speaker 2: that I can find, and based on the best advice 203 00:10:33,200 --> 00:10:36,840 Speaker 2: from the very best advisory groups that exists, we decided 204 00:10:36,840 --> 00:10:38,640 Speaker 2: that honesty was the best policy. And I took a 205 00:10:38,840 --> 00:10:41,679 Speaker 2: hugely deep breath. I was walking around the table at 206 00:10:41,679 --> 00:10:43,240 Speaker 2: the time and walking past you, and I put my 207 00:10:43,280 --> 00:10:44,920 Speaker 2: hand on your shoulder and thought, oh, no, how do 208 00:10:45,000 --> 00:10:48,520 Speaker 2: we do this? And you stepped straight in and, in 209 00:10:49,160 --> 00:10:53,880 Speaker 2: minor detail, without giving anything more than a gentle little 210 00:10:53,960 --> 00:10:59,400 Speaker 2: sip of water to her metaphorically, you explained enough, at 211 00:10:59,400 --> 00:11:04,720 Speaker 2: which point her desire for information was satisfied. She didn't 212 00:11:04,760 --> 00:11:07,439 Speaker 2: ask for any more, and we were able to move 213 00:11:07,440 --> 00:11:10,480 Speaker 2: the conversation forward from there. I think when it comes 214 00:11:10,480 --> 00:11:13,120 Speaker 2: to middle childhood and even with teenagers, those are going 215 00:11:13,160 --> 00:11:15,040 Speaker 2: to be the best principles for us to lean on. 216 00:11:15,400 --> 00:11:17,839 Speaker 2: It's the fire hose principle. It's keeping it simple, it's 217 00:11:17,880 --> 00:11:22,240 Speaker 2: answering questions to the degree to which they're curious, offering 218 00:11:22,280 --> 00:11:31,280 Speaker 2: lots of empathy and making sure that they understand with 219 00:11:31,400 --> 00:11:34,480 Speaker 2: everything that we've said, let's run through a handful of 220 00:11:34,640 --> 00:11:37,200 Speaker 2: general points. This may be a little bit repetitive, but 221 00:11:37,280 --> 00:11:39,320 Speaker 2: it's worth doing it, and there's definitely some ideas that 222 00:11:39,320 --> 00:11:43,000 Speaker 2: we haven't shared so far. The first one, keep it simple. 223 00:11:43,679 --> 00:11:46,880 Speaker 2: The second one operate on the principle of the fire hose. 224 00:11:47,440 --> 00:11:52,080 Speaker 2: The third one. If they ask why, tell them, but 225 00:11:52,200 --> 00:11:54,720 Speaker 2: keep it age appropriate. They don't need to know all 226 00:11:54,760 --> 00:11:57,720 Speaker 2: of the skeletons in the closet, just the basics, and 227 00:11:57,880 --> 00:12:01,560 Speaker 2: the more general you can be safe, you'll be particularly 228 00:12:01,600 --> 00:12:03,679 Speaker 2: when they're young. So the person had a disease in 229 00:12:03,720 --> 00:12:06,360 Speaker 2: their head and they died and it's very sad. Is 230 00:12:07,200 --> 00:12:09,559 Speaker 2: a wonderful start. If they say, what do you mean, 231 00:12:09,920 --> 00:12:12,800 Speaker 2: we might have a conversation about depression or I mean, 232 00:12:12,960 --> 00:12:15,000 Speaker 2: it's different in every family. There might have been something 233 00:12:15,040 --> 00:12:19,199 Speaker 2: going on in terms of money problems or relationship problems 234 00:12:19,280 --> 00:12:21,920 Speaker 2: or whatever, but we want to try to protect our 235 00:12:22,000 --> 00:12:24,920 Speaker 2: children and our broader family to the degree that that's 236 00:12:25,320 --> 00:12:32,280 Speaker 2: responsible behavior. Next, if they ask how, the National Scent 237 00:12:32,320 --> 00:12:34,600 Speaker 2: of Childhood Grief says to tell them, but to keep 238 00:12:34,640 --> 00:12:39,120 Speaker 2: it age appropriate. Next, remember that talking about it actually 239 00:12:39,160 --> 00:12:44,440 Speaker 2: helps to dispel misinformation and stigma, and rather than creating 240 00:12:44,480 --> 00:12:48,640 Speaker 2: ideas in our children's head. Research indicates that it creates 241 00:12:48,640 --> 00:12:52,120 Speaker 2: a safe space to ask questions. And so you want 242 00:12:52,200 --> 00:12:55,440 Speaker 2: to encourage your children to ask questions at any time 243 00:12:56,000 --> 00:12:58,559 Speaker 2: and to talk with you at any time. And that's 244 00:12:58,600 --> 00:13:01,560 Speaker 2: something that we've done all week long, for the last 245 00:13:01,559 --> 00:13:03,080 Speaker 2: week and a half, that's all we've done. 246 00:13:04,000 --> 00:13:08,280 Speaker 3: The powerful thing about being able to have conversations with 247 00:13:08,360 --> 00:13:13,000 Speaker 3: your kids, honest, heartfelt conversations with them, is that they 248 00:13:13,040 --> 00:13:16,920 Speaker 3: are so perceptive. And as the week has gone on, 249 00:13:17,720 --> 00:13:23,079 Speaker 3: the emotions have varied, and it varied in intensity and 250 00:13:25,080 --> 00:13:27,480 Speaker 3: have been different from day to day. You know, you 251 00:13:27,520 --> 00:13:30,480 Speaker 3: talk about the stages of grief. There's been anchor, there's 252 00:13:30,520 --> 00:13:35,560 Speaker 3: been deep, deep sadness, there's been just a lot of 253 00:13:35,679 --> 00:13:42,600 Speaker 3: hurt and pain. And because of those honest conversations, I 254 00:13:42,640 --> 00:13:48,000 Speaker 3: think that the children haven't felt afraid of them because 255 00:13:48,040 --> 00:13:53,400 Speaker 3: they've understood the depth and the immensity of the situation, 256 00:13:54,120 --> 00:13:57,000 Speaker 3: even if they don't fully understand it, because we were 257 00:13:57,040 --> 00:13:59,880 Speaker 3: honest with them. When we're not able to have those 258 00:14:00,000 --> 00:14:03,920 Speaker 3: conversations with our kids, they're left wondering and they fill 259 00:14:03,960 --> 00:14:08,240 Speaker 3: in the gaps of what they think's going on, and 260 00:14:08,240 --> 00:14:09,960 Speaker 3: that's never helpful for anyone. 261 00:14:11,240 --> 00:14:11,600 Speaker 1: Thank you. 262 00:14:11,679 --> 00:14:13,400 Speaker 2: Let me share a couple of other ideas that matter 263 00:14:13,440 --> 00:14:15,080 Speaker 2: a lot. Now I've already said this, but I want 264 00:14:15,120 --> 00:14:17,600 Speaker 2: to reemphasize at research shows that talking about it safely 265 00:14:17,679 --> 00:14:21,800 Speaker 2: doesn't exacerbate or amplify risk. In fact, you and I 266 00:14:21,880 --> 00:14:25,320 Speaker 2: have had a very very clear conversation with our kids, 267 00:14:25,760 --> 00:14:27,880 Speaker 2: very very clear, and one thing that we did was 268 00:14:28,080 --> 00:14:30,400 Speaker 2: I shared a story about how early in our marriage 269 00:14:30,440 --> 00:14:32,600 Speaker 2: we didn't have any kind of disagreement or argument in 270 00:14:32,600 --> 00:14:35,400 Speaker 2: our marriage for at least nine months, ten months, but 271 00:14:35,480 --> 00:14:38,040 Speaker 2: somewhere towards the end of the first year of our marriage, 272 00:14:38,160 --> 00:14:41,520 Speaker 2: we had our first argument, our first blow up, and 273 00:14:41,560 --> 00:14:43,360 Speaker 2: we'd never had one before, and so I don't know 274 00:14:43,360 --> 00:14:45,360 Speaker 2: how big it actually was, but it felt like a doozy. 275 00:14:46,120 --> 00:14:49,320 Speaker 2: And during the course of that argument, what twenty five 276 00:14:49,400 --> 00:14:53,560 Speaker 2: years ago now, you said something about getting divorced, and 277 00:14:53,600 --> 00:14:56,800 Speaker 2: I remember in that moment I said to you something 278 00:14:56,800 --> 00:14:59,640 Speaker 2: along the lines of, we can never use that word 279 00:14:59,720 --> 00:15:02,440 Speaker 2: in the context of this relationship. It's off the table. 280 00:15:02,640 --> 00:15:04,800 Speaker 2: It's not an option. We don't joke about it, and 281 00:15:04,800 --> 00:15:07,600 Speaker 2: we absolutely don't threaten it. We are committed to one another. 282 00:15:07,640 --> 00:15:09,720 Speaker 2: We love one another, and we will work this out. Now, 283 00:15:10,200 --> 00:15:13,520 Speaker 2: in hindsight, I don't necessarily believe that entirely. If somebody 284 00:15:13,600 --> 00:15:16,880 Speaker 2: is in a relationship that is not safe, then divorce 285 00:15:16,960 --> 00:15:20,840 Speaker 2: has to be an option. In fact, the reason the 286 00:15:20,880 --> 00:15:23,520 Speaker 2: divorce exists is so that we can make sure that 287 00:15:23,560 --> 00:15:26,080 Speaker 2: we do treat each other well. But I think that 288 00:15:26,240 --> 00:15:29,480 Speaker 2: taking it off the table change the nature of our relationship. 289 00:15:29,680 --> 00:15:31,800 Speaker 2: We looked at the decision we'd made to be married 290 00:15:31,840 --> 00:15:34,880 Speaker 2: as irreversible, and because we knew that we were safe together, 291 00:15:35,280 --> 00:15:38,000 Speaker 2: it was good that it was irreversible. We shared that 292 00:15:38,040 --> 00:15:40,120 Speaker 2: with our children one at a time, as we sat 293 00:15:40,160 --> 00:15:43,280 Speaker 2: with them and talked about Logan's death and we talked 294 00:15:43,280 --> 00:15:46,360 Speaker 2: about suicide. We said that in the same way that 295 00:15:46,720 --> 00:15:48,760 Speaker 2: it's fine to use the word divorce, it's fine to 296 00:15:48,800 --> 00:15:50,720 Speaker 2: talk about the concept of divorce and even to talk 297 00:15:50,760 --> 00:15:53,320 Speaker 2: about people who have been divorced. In the context of 298 00:15:53,320 --> 00:15:56,080 Speaker 2: our relationship, we don't talk about that as being an option, 299 00:15:56,200 --> 00:15:59,360 Speaker 2: because we love each other and we will work through 300 00:15:59,400 --> 00:16:02,600 Speaker 2: the challenge that we have when they arise. Similarly, when 301 00:16:02,640 --> 00:16:05,640 Speaker 2: it comes to suicide, it's perfectly fine to say the word. 302 00:16:05,920 --> 00:16:09,040 Speaker 2: It's also perfectly reasonable to talk about it, ask about it, 303 00:16:09,160 --> 00:16:12,600 Speaker 2: learn about it. But we need to be really clear 304 00:16:12,720 --> 00:16:14,600 Speaker 2: that it has to come off the table as an 305 00:16:14,640 --> 00:16:17,200 Speaker 2: option when life gets hard. It has to come off 306 00:16:17,200 --> 00:16:21,080 Speaker 2: the table as something that we would ever contemplate when 307 00:16:21,280 --> 00:16:23,920 Speaker 2: we don't know how to resolve the problems that we're facing. 308 00:16:24,520 --> 00:16:28,440 Speaker 2: It can't be an option. Now that sounds in some 309 00:16:28,480 --> 00:16:31,080 Speaker 2: ways like a terribly harsh thing to say. It sounds 310 00:16:31,120 --> 00:16:34,240 Speaker 2: like it's a confronting and provocative thing to say. But 311 00:16:34,280 --> 00:16:36,040 Speaker 2: the more I've thought about it, and I've actually shared 312 00:16:36,040 --> 00:16:38,200 Speaker 2: this with a couple of friends who are psychologists and 313 00:16:38,240 --> 00:16:41,800 Speaker 2: asked them what they thought, and they agreed, absolutely, this 314 00:16:41,920 --> 00:16:43,600 Speaker 2: is something that we want to take off the table. 315 00:16:43,640 --> 00:16:45,680 Speaker 2: We do not want our kids, our teenager is running 316 00:16:45,680 --> 00:16:48,160 Speaker 2: around thinking that it's an option because we don't need 317 00:16:48,200 --> 00:16:52,160 Speaker 2: this heartache and every problem is solvable. There is a 318 00:16:52,200 --> 00:16:55,520 Speaker 2: way through every challenge that we or our children might experience, 319 00:16:55,840 --> 00:16:57,720 Speaker 2: and that's the message that we need to get through 320 00:16:57,720 --> 00:16:58,160 Speaker 2: to them. 321 00:16:58,480 --> 00:17:00,520 Speaker 1: It's not an option. Take it off the table. 322 00:17:00,840 --> 00:17:03,880 Speaker 2: Because the tsunami of grief that it doesn't just ripple out, 323 00:17:04,000 --> 00:17:07,440 Speaker 2: It sweeps across the family and friends and the communities 324 00:17:07,440 --> 00:17:12,399 Speaker 2: that are affected is just insurmountable in so many ways, 325 00:17:12,440 --> 00:17:14,320 Speaker 2: it is so extraordinarily large. 326 00:17:14,840 --> 00:17:16,600 Speaker 3: I think the only other thing we haven't really talked 327 00:17:16,600 --> 00:17:18,520 Speaker 3: about is just acknowledging that our kids are going to 328 00:17:18,560 --> 00:17:20,400 Speaker 3: have different emotions around it. 329 00:17:21,119 --> 00:17:24,359 Speaker 2: And in an hour, they're going to have different emotions, 330 00:17:25,240 --> 00:17:26,639 Speaker 2: let alone across a week and a half. 331 00:17:27,760 --> 00:17:31,239 Speaker 3: As sometimes it's not actually helpful to ask them how 332 00:17:31,280 --> 00:17:35,719 Speaker 3: they're feeling, because just like there've been multiple times this 333 00:17:35,760 --> 00:17:38,520 Speaker 3: week where I haven't really understood what I'm feeling, there's 334 00:17:38,760 --> 00:17:44,400 Speaker 3: just so much emotion. Our kids are trying to work 335 00:17:44,440 --> 00:17:46,600 Speaker 3: this out and understand it. So they just need to 336 00:17:46,640 --> 00:17:48,399 Speaker 3: know that there's a safe place to have a cry, 337 00:17:48,760 --> 00:17:51,560 Speaker 3: have a hug, and not have to explain themselves. 338 00:17:52,000 --> 00:17:54,560 Speaker 2: The kids had a remote control war the other day, 339 00:17:54,680 --> 00:17:56,480 Speaker 2: like literally a big war in the living room over 340 00:17:56,480 --> 00:17:58,199 Speaker 2: who got to hold the remote control. They weren't even 341 00:17:58,280 --> 00:18:01,480 Speaker 2: changing the channels, they weren't changing anything, they just want 342 00:18:01,520 --> 00:18:03,160 Speaker 2: to They just fought over who was going to hold 343 00:18:03,200 --> 00:18:06,639 Speaker 2: the remote. And I don't think that that misbehavior was 344 00:18:06,640 --> 00:18:08,600 Speaker 2: really about the remote control. I think it was about 345 00:18:08,600 --> 00:18:10,880 Speaker 2: the pent up emotion and the challenges and the difficulties 346 00:18:10,920 --> 00:18:14,560 Speaker 2: they're associated with going through this grieving process, recognizing that 347 00:18:14,600 --> 00:18:19,040 Speaker 2: emotion it's a contagious, Recognizing that sometimes kids don't want 348 00:18:19,040 --> 00:18:21,120 Speaker 2: to talk, sometimes they don't know how they're feeling. Sometimes 349 00:18:21,160 --> 00:18:24,000 Speaker 2: we don't, that there may be some misbehavior. Those things 350 00:18:24,040 --> 00:18:26,840 Speaker 2: are all going to be important in navigating this very, 351 00:18:27,119 --> 00:18:29,520 Speaker 2: very tricky and challenging time. 352 00:18:30,640 --> 00:18:36,560 Speaker 3: And somehow, in spite of our own grief, we have 353 00:18:36,680 --> 00:18:41,639 Speaker 3: to find a way to be soft, softer on ourselves 354 00:18:41,720 --> 00:18:44,480 Speaker 3: and soft on our kids as they start to work 355 00:18:44,560 --> 00:18:46,840 Speaker 3: through everything together. 356 00:18:47,240 --> 00:18:50,159 Speaker 2: Tomorrow in our Older Better Tomorrow episode, it's going to 357 00:18:50,160 --> 00:18:53,280 Speaker 2: be short, but we're going to talk specifically about that 358 00:18:53,640 --> 00:18:56,720 Speaker 2: very thing and why it's so important, and what the 359 00:18:56,800 --> 00:19:00,040 Speaker 2: last ten or twelve days have taught us as a 360 00:18:59,880 --> 00:19:04,920 Speaker 2: family about kindness and love and goodness. I hope that 361 00:19:04,960 --> 00:19:07,280 Speaker 2: you'll join us for a conversation that I think will 362 00:19:07,320 --> 00:19:11,520 Speaker 2: make your family think about so much about what you 363 00:19:11,600 --> 00:19:14,440 Speaker 2: do so differently. Thank you so much for joining us 364 00:19:14,480 --> 00:19:17,639 Speaker 2: in a fairly somber conversation about a very difficult topic. 365 00:19:17,680 --> 00:19:20,160 Speaker 2: We hope that it has been helpful, and we hope 366 00:19:20,160 --> 00:19:22,159 Speaker 2: that it gives you some guidance as to how you 367 00:19:22,200 --> 00:19:26,320 Speaker 2: can navigate these tricky moments in your own Homes and Families. 368 00:19:26,720 --> 00:19:28,800 Speaker 2: As always, we appreciate so much the work of both 369 00:19:28,920 --> 00:19:32,520 Speaker 2: Justin rale And our producer, and Craig Bruce, our executive producer, 370 00:19:32,800 --> 00:19:34,960 Speaker 2: for the work that they do on making the Happy 371 00:19:34,960 --> 00:19:38,160 Speaker 2: Families podcast available to you. If you'd like more information 372 00:19:38,200 --> 00:19:41,639 Speaker 2: about making your family happier, visit happyfamilies dot com dot 373 00:19:41,680 --> 00:19:43,760 Speaker 2: a you and if anything that we've talked about today 374 00:19:43,840 --> 00:19:47,040 Speaker 2: has created any challenges for you that you need to 375 00:19:47,040 --> 00:19:50,800 Speaker 2: talk about, please talk to somebody. You can google all 376 00:19:50,880 --> 00:19:55,840 Speaker 2: kinds of assistance lines, if you jump online, or just 377 00:19:55,880 --> 00:20:03,120 Speaker 2: pick up the phone and ring somebody you love and trust.