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Speaker 1: It's the Happy Families podcast. It's the podcast for the

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Speaker 1: time poor parent who just once answers now gday. This

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Speaker 1: is doctor Justin Colson. Welcome to a Happy Families podcast. We've

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Speaker 1: been counting down all this week our top five podcasts

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Speaker 1: of twenty twenty three based on how many times you've

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Speaker 1: downloaded and listened to them. The most listened to podcast

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Speaker 1: of the year is coming up in a couple of seconds.

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Speaker 1: A quick intro though. Doctor Ross Green is the man

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Speaker 1: who is behind a book called The Explosive Child. The

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Speaker 1: Explosive Child and we had a two part episode with

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Speaker 1: Ross where we talked about all kinds of things around

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Speaker 1: diffusing explosive children. Now, only one of those episodes made

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Speaker 1: it into our top five, and it was our number one.

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Speaker 1: But one of asked our wonderful producer Jr. To do

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Speaker 1: is to pull together both parts of that interview so

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Speaker 1: you get the whole thing you can take your time

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Speaker 1: listening to across the Christmas break. How to Diffuse Explosive

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Speaker 1: Children from Doctor Ross Green, the most listened to podcast

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Speaker 1: of twenty twenty three on The Happy Family's podcast Enjoy Today.

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Speaker 1: On the podcast, I have the opportunity to chat with

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Speaker 1: somebody that I'm super excited to talk to. Had a

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Speaker 1: couple of conversations with doctor Ross Green, an associate clinical

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Speaker 1: professor at Harvard Medical School and the originator of the

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Speaker 1: model in the book The Explosive Child. More than half

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Speaker 1: a million copies of this book have been sold, a

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Speaker 1: new approach for understanding and parenting easily frustrated, chronically inflexible children.

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Speaker 1: I love the book. Ross. You can see the dogged,

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Speaker 1: highlighted nature of the book when I went through it,

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Speaker 1: and it's just a delight to be able to talk

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Speaker 1: with you today. Thanks for joining me on the podcast.

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Speaker 2: I appreciate you invading me.

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Speaker 1: Ross. One of the things that you are best known

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Speaker 1: for saying, and it makes up an entire chapter Chapter

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Speaker 1: two of the book is kids do well if they can.

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Speaker 1: For parents who are struggling with children who are inflexible

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Speaker 1: and rigid, and let's face it, just a little bit

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Speaker 1: frustrating and even explosive. The idea that kids do well

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Speaker 1: if they can is both comforting and confronting, because it's

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Speaker 1: comforting meaning, well, the kids are doing the best that

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Speaker 1: they can and they just can't do it right now.

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Speaker 1: But it's also frustrating from the point of view that, well,

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Speaker 1: why can't they do it like they did it yesterday

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Speaker 1: or they did it last week? Can you elaborate a

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Speaker 1: little bit more on this idea of kids do well

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Speaker 1: if they can?

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Speaker 3: There's a lot of science behind kids do all if

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Speaker 3: they can? A lot of research not on kids do

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Speaker 3: all if they can specifically, but research telling us why

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Speaker 3: kids who have concerning behaviors aren't doing well. And what

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Speaker 3: the research tells us, of course, is that they are

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Speaker 3: lacking crucial skills flexibility, adaptability, frustration tolerance, problem solving, emotion regulation.

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Speaker 1: Well, I'm going to pause you right there, Ross, Let's

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Speaker 1: come we talk about each of those four things five things.

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Speaker 1: Because it's so easy to sit here in a podcast

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Speaker 1: and go, yeah, okay, my kids don't have frustration tolerance,

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Speaker 1: they don't have flexibility, adaptability, at motion regulation. Everyone nods

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Speaker 1: their heads, But it's worth taking thirty seconds on each

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Speaker 1: of them and saying, here's what they are and here's

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Speaker 1: why they're lacking them. Can we please do that? That's

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Speaker 1: so to me, really important.

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Speaker 3: I don't often get the chance to do that. Flexibility

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Speaker 3: and adaptability refers to your ability to deal with changes.

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Speaker 1: They don't like that, right, Like when you're at the

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Speaker 1: park with the kitschen you say it's time to go home.

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Speaker 1: They're kind of in their own little world. They're saying,

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Speaker 1: but I like it here, and now you're asking me.

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Speaker 3: To change, right, And some kids are going to pout

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Speaker 3: about it. Some kids are going to go right along

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Speaker 3: with it, that's their personality. But kids who are lacking

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Speaker 3: the skills of flexibility and adaptability are going to get

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Speaker 3: very upset by demands for change, especially if after we

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Speaker 3: demand that they shift gears quickly and they don't shift

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Speaker 3: gears quickly, all we do is insist harder or push

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Speaker 3: harder that they shift quickly, and then you have concerning behavior.

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Speaker 3: Concerning behavior occurs anytime you're placing demands on kids that

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Speaker 3: they're lacking the skills to handle. So there's flexibility adaptability.

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Speaker 3: Many of us take that skill for granted. I would

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Speaker 3: say demands for flexibility and adaptability for most human beings

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Speaker 3: happen many dozens of times every day, probably more so

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Speaker 3: for kids because we adults are so keen on telling

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Speaker 3: them what to do. Frustration tolerance. All of us gets frustrated.

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Speaker 3: How you manage that, whether you use your words, which

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Speaker 3: we say to two year olds, but which many of

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Speaker 3: the kids I work with who are fifteen still haven't mastered.

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Speaker 3: The ability to continue thinking clearly even if you are frustrated.

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Speaker 3: Crucial skill. We use it dozens of times every day,

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Speaker 3: easy to take for granted unless you are your kid

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Speaker 3: is lacking that skill problem solving. In my opinion, it

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Speaker 3: should come first problem solving. I think if you twisted

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Speaker 3: my arm behind my back and said, ross most important

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Speaker 3: skill for life problem solving.

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Speaker 1: When you talk through these skills, and we'll tie it

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Speaker 1: back to kids do well if they can in a

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Speaker 1: sec well, actually, I guess this does tie in. There's

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Speaker 1: a phrase that I use all the time with parents

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Speaker 1: when I'm chatting about how we can help our kids

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Speaker 1: navigate big emotions, but also how we can navigate our

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Speaker 1: own big emotions, and that is the This is a shortcut.

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Speaker 1: I know that you'll probably resistant least part of what

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Speaker 1: I'm saying here, but for simplicity's sake, I'll say to parents,

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Speaker 1: high emotions equals low intelligence. The more emotional we become,

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Speaker 1: the harder it is to think clearly, the problem solved,

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Speaker 1: to deal with the frustration, to regulate and step through it,

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Speaker 1: and so I guess when we talk about an explosive child,

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Speaker 1: the entire book and even the concept of kids do

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Speaker 1: well if they can, I'll comes down to let's help

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Speaker 1: kids too, and let's help us as adults to keep

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Speaker 1: our emotions and check so that we can solve problems effectively.

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Speaker 3: Correct and in early editions of The Explosive Child, I

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Speaker 3: used to write that kids lost about forty IQ points

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Speaker 3: in the midst of frustration. The reason I took it

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Speaker 3: out is because people were taking it literally and asking me,

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Speaker 3: where's the research on that.

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Speaker 2: Right, No, it's a metaphor. It's a metaphor, but it

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Speaker 2: goes to what you're saying.

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Speaker 3: And then emotion regulation. Emotion regulation is huge. Life is

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Speaker 3: full of anxieties and frustrations and sadness. These are all

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Speaker 3: good emotions because they can propel us into action, says

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Speaker 3: the research. But the other thing the research says is

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Speaker 3: that if we feel those emotions too strongly, they can

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Speaker 3: shut us down and make it harder for us to think.

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Speaker 3: So those are the global skills The research has identifiedly

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Speaker 3: hundreds of skills frequently found lacking in kids with social, emotional,

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Speaker 3: and behavioral challenges. Why do I say kids do all

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Speaker 3: if they can, because if you have those skills, you're

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Speaker 3: probably doing pretty well, and if you don't, you'd very

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Speaker 3: much like to be doing well, but something's getting in

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Speaker 3: your way.

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Speaker 1: What I love about that phrase as well, Ross is

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Speaker 1: kids do well if they can. Says we should trust

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Speaker 1: in the implicit in the innate desire of children to

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Speaker 1: do well. They want to do well, but they have

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Speaker 1: these challenges, these difficulties, these these skills that I yet

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Speaker 1: to be developed.

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Speaker 3: Here's the thing about that. That becomes philosophical, and sometimes

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Speaker 3: in philosophical discussions there is no outcome because now you're

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Speaker 3: dueling about philosophies, the lagging skills research, and there are

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Speaker 3: hundreds of studies. Now for me, seals the philosophical debate.

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Speaker 3: There is no philosophical debate. Kids do all if they

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Speaker 3: can wins, and I'm out into winning and losing. I'm

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Speaker 3: just saying if the alternative philosophy is kids do all

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Speaker 3: if they wanna, and that's going to lead us to

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Speaker 3: thinking that this kid doesn't want to do well, and

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Speaker 3: that's going to lead us to thinking it's our job

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Speaker 3: to make the kid wanna do well. The lagging skills

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Speaker 3: research puts that mentality to rest. It's been very popular

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Speaker 3: for a very long time, so I'm always I like

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Speaker 3: engaging in philosophical discussions. But that's one that should have

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Speaker 3: ended a very long time ago thanks to the literature

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Speaker 3: on lagging skills in kids with concerning behaviors.

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Speaker 1: Doctor Ross Green. He is the author of The Explosive

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Speaker 1: Child and associate clinical professor at Harvard Medical School. What

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Speaker 1: I'm hearing you say is some people will say it's

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Speaker 1: a question of motivation. Others will say it's a question

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Speaker 1: of ability. You're highlighting this is an issue of ability.

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Speaker 1: Kids will do well if they have the ability. It's

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Speaker 1: not whether they're motivated to or not. They just don't

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Speaker 1: have the ability. And I would throw in here as well.

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Speaker 1: Context is everything. Just because a child has the ability

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Speaker 1: at seven thirty am doesn't mean that they'll have the

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Speaker 1: ability at six thirty pm.

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Speaker 3: Correct, So there's always life's contextual factors that can make

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Speaker 3: you look better and more capable under some conditions and

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Speaker 3: not others.

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Speaker 2: No doubt about it.

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Speaker 3: I'm much better at seven thirty am than I am

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Speaker 3: at seven thirty pm. Luckily we're doing this early enough

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Speaker 3: for me to still have some brain cells left, but

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Speaker 3: you get the idea.

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Speaker 1: Very much so lagging skills. Lagging skills simply means that

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Speaker 1: things like frustration, tolerance, flexibility, and adaptability, problem solving, e

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Speaker 1: motion regulation have not yet been developed. So right now,

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Speaker 1: every parent of a child who is explosive, every parent

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Speaker 1: of a child who is rigid, every parent of a

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Speaker 1: child who has additional needs. Maybe they've got a diagnosis,

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Speaker 1: they're on the spectrum ADHD, whatever it could be. Every

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Speaker 1: parent right now is listening to us and saying, well,

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Speaker 1: how do I give them the skills? I need them

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Speaker 1: to have the skills tonight, right now. Please. Obviously, skills

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Speaker 1: don't develop after listening to a brief podcast. It's for

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Speaker 1: a time poor parent who really does want airsst right now.

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Speaker 1: But if we wanted to develop the skill of flexibility

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Speaker 1: and adaptability. Now you've got a couple of kids. I

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Speaker 1: have six kids. You know what it's like when a

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Speaker 1: child becomes intensely rigid, narrow minded, tunnel vision and what

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Speaker 1: they believe is the way that it is, and no

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Speaker 1: amount of logic will convince them. How do we work

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Speaker 1: with a child who is inflexible and teach them that

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Speaker 1: skill of psychological flexibility.

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Speaker 2: All right, this is going to take a minute. Okay.

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Speaker 3: I don't know if that is a skill that can

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Speaker 3: be taught through direct instruction, though I know many people try.

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Speaker 3: I think it is a skill that is taught more

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Speaker 3: through a process. And the process that we use to

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Speaker 3: enhance that skill is problem solving. Solving problems collaboratively. So

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Speaker 3: let me just rewind the tape a second. The kids

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Speaker 3: who we're thinking about right now don't look bad all

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Speaker 3: the time. They only look bad some of the time.

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Speaker 3: When do they look bad when expectations are being placed

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Speaker 3: upon them that they're having difficulty meeting. That could be

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Speaker 3: anything from difficulty turning off the xbox to come in

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Speaker 3: for dinner, to difficulty getting out of bed by seven

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Speaker 3: am to go to school, to difficulty eating what mom

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Speaker 3: or Dad has made for dinner. Those are all expectations.

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Speaker 3: If a kid is having difficulty meeting and expectation, we

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Speaker 3: have a problem that needs to be solved. We call

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Speaker 3: those unsolved problems. And as you know, but maybe some

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Speaker 3: of your listeners don't, don't, the collaborative and proactive solutions

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Speaker 3: model articulates a very systematic way of solving problems collaboratively

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Speaker 3: and proactively with kids. So the good news is that

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Speaker 3: once a problem is solved, it doesn't cause concerning behavior anymore.

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Speaker 2: That's good.

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Speaker 3: Both the problem is solved and the concerning behavior has subsided.

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Speaker 2: Both very good things.

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Speaker 3: But the process of solving problems with kids collaboratively and

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Speaker 3: outside the heat of the moment proactively also gives kids

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Speaker 3: practice at models for them and enhances the very skills

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Speaker 3: that they're lacking. So now to your question. In the

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Speaker 3: case of flexibility adaptability, let's say we've got a kid

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Speaker 3: who's a very concrete, literal, black and white, rigid thinker.

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Speaker 3: They've already got the solution of that problem, but.

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Speaker 2: We don't want to hear about their solution yet.

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Speaker 3: We want to hear what's making it hard for them

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Speaker 3: to meet the expectation. First, it would sound like this,

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Speaker 3: I've noticed you've been having difficulty brushing your teeth before

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Speaker 3: going to bed at night.

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Speaker 2: What's up.

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Speaker 3: That's the beginning of the first of the three steps

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Speaker 3: that are involved in solving a problem collaboratively. Let's say

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Speaker 3: this very rigid kid then says, oh, no, no, no, I'm

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Speaker 3: in trouble brushing my teeth before I go to bed

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Speaker 3: at night. I've got my way of doing it, and

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Speaker 3: that's my way of doing it. That's not any typical response, right.

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Speaker 3: The parent would then say, yes, but I'm interested in

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Speaker 3: knowing what's hard for you about meeting that expectation. Now

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Speaker 3: we're on a different subject. Now we're not on the

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Speaker 3: kid's solution. Now we've rewound the tape a little bit

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Speaker 3: back to what's making it hard for them. In the

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Speaker 3: second step, the adult is entering their concern into consideration

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Speaker 3: why we think it's important that the expectation be met.

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Speaker 3: In the third step, we're putting our heads together and

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Speaker 3: collaborating on a solution, but one that addresses the concerns

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Speaker 3: of both parties. So what happened in that process for

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Speaker 3: that kid number one, they felt heard this is not

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Speaker 3: my solution versus your solution. It's let's hear your concerns.

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Speaker 3: Let's hear what's getting in your way. Then I'm going

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Speaker 3: to tell you my concerns. So we're listening to each other,

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Speaker 3: we're modeling, we're practicing, listening, empathizing, taking another person's perspective.

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Speaker 3: And then when we get to that third step and

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Speaker 3: we discover that the kid's original solution and the adult's

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Speaker 3: original solution could not conceivably address the concerns of both parties,

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Speaker 3: and that we need a different solution. Well, the kid

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Speaker 3: has just gotten one rep in the skill of flexibility adaptability,

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Speaker 3: also one rep on problem solving, one rep on frustration tolerance,

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Speaker 3: and if we did this proactively instead of the heat

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Speaker 3: of the moment, probably some skills that are going to

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Speaker 3: help them regulate their emotions down the road if we

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Speaker 3: get them good enough at this. So, in answer to your question,

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Speaker 3: I told you it was going to take a while.

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Speaker 3: How do you teach skills when you're implementing collaborative and

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Speaker 3: practice solutions? By solving problems collaboratively and proactively, just by

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Speaker 3: engaging kids in that process, we model practice and enhance

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Speaker 3: those skills. I should mention one other thing. It's not

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Speaker 3: just the kid who's getting practice at those skills.

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Speaker 1: There are two things that I want to pick up

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Speaker 1: on here. One of them is a comment. I guess

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Speaker 1: it's a little bit self referential. Your three elements where

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Speaker 1: you sit down and say, hey, I've noticed this, there's

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Speaker 1: some difficulty here. What's up in the model that I developed?

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Speaker 1: I would call that explore We're nice, We're literally exploring

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Speaker 1: the world. The next thing that you said is when

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Speaker 1: they provide some resistance or when we're not really making

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Speaker 1: any progress, you say, it's fine, but here's what we need.

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Speaker 1: You talked about how we're outlining the expectation. I call

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Speaker 1: that explain So we've got an exploration and an explanation.

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Speaker 1: And then when you have that problem solving, that collaborative conversation.

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Speaker 1: I call that in power. So I call that the

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Speaker 1: three e's. It's essentially the same model you and I

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Speaker 1: ross we're twins. We're teaching the same thing with the

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Speaker 1: different words.

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Speaker 2: That a much better hand than I do.

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Speaker 1: But anyways, there but this concept is so foreign to

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Speaker 1: so many parents who have been raised with the idea

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Speaker 1: that if they're not doing it, And I've got books

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Speaker 1: on my shelf from very well known, incredibly well educated

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Speaker 1: parenting experts who essentially are saying, if the kids won't

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Speaker 1: do as they're told, parent harder. You've just got a

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Speaker 1: parent harder. You've got to push more, you've got to

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Speaker 1: raise the stakes. That's more of an observation and a

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Speaker 1: reflection on what you've shared that I just wanted to

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Speaker 1: sort of, I guess for my happy family's audience to

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Speaker 1: tie together the way that you're describing it in the

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Speaker 1: way that I do, I think it makes it. It's

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Speaker 1: wonderfully mutually reinforcing. The thing that I do want to

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Speaker 1: pull out of there, though, is I'm listening really carefully

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Speaker 1: of the language that you use, and I feel that

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Speaker 1: you are very careful, explicitly careful about the language you're using.

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Speaker 1: For example, you're talking about a child who's having difficulty

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Speaker 1: or challenge, you're talking about lagging skills, you're talking about

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Speaker 1: the collaborative, proactive way that we engage. Would you just

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Speaker 1: talk a little bit about the language that you're using

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Speaker 1: and the specific words such as difficult behavior.

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Speaker 3: I try not to be judgmental. I find that there's

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Speaker 3: many ways of talking about kids with concerning behaviors that

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Speaker 3: can be loaded. But the biggest reason I choose my

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Speaker 3: words carefully is that because this is such a dramatic

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Speaker 3: departure for so many people, it can be misunderstood quickly,

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Speaker 3: often by people who are taking what they're doing already

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Speaker 3: and saying, all right, this sounds good. How do I

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Speaker 3: force what I'm hearing now into what I'm doing already?

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Speaker 3: And I don't want my language to lend to confusion.

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Speaker 3: I don't want to add to the confusion by being imprecise.

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Speaker 3: This is hard enough of a transition for many caregivers

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Speaker 3: without me confusing them with my own language. So yeah,

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Speaker 3: I'm going to talk about difficult behavior.

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Speaker 2: I'm not going to use.

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Speaker 3: Terms that are more loaded than that, especially because since

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Speaker 3: I don't think the kid is doing this to here,

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Speaker 3: we go right, push our buttons, yank our chains, test limits,

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Speaker 3: manipulate us, coerce us into capitulating to their wishes. I

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Speaker 3: find those are very loaded terms, very judgmental that suggests

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Speaker 3: that we actually know what's behind what's going on with

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Speaker 3: the kid. None of that based in research. We're solid

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Speaker 3: this is a kid who's lacking skills. I want to

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Speaker 3: make sure that I am referring to this kid in

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Speaker 3: the most humane, compassionate, enlatented, non judgmental way possible.

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Speaker 1: I love the respect for the humanity of the child

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Speaker 1: that is in your approach. Ross. When I was working

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Speaker 1: through the Explosive Child some time ago, now, I came

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Speaker 1: across a mathematical formula, and normally this is the kind

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Speaker 1: of thing that would turn anybody off any any kind

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Speaker 1: of a parenting book, cause hang on, I'm reading parenting.

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Speaker 1: I'm not reading maths. This is not how I want

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Speaker 1: to spend my Friday night. But it struck me as

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Speaker 1: being such a profoundly important formula I'd love to unpack

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Speaker 1: it with you for a couple of minutes. Just now,

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Speaker 1: you describe the formula as such, inflexibility plus inflexibility equals

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Speaker 1: melt down. Can you talk about this in the context

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Speaker 1: of an explosive child, or in fact, in the context

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Speaker 1: of just I think any relationship.

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Speaker 3: Really, the kid is already inflexible by nature. That's inflexibility

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Speaker 3: number one. If your stance toward the kid is equally inflexible,

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Speaker 3: perhaps in an effort to show the kid whose boss,

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Speaker 3: perhaps in an effort to teach the kid a lesson,

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Speaker 3: they'll never forget all these things that we think we're

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Speaker 3: supposed to be doing as parents. So that's inflexibility number two.

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Speaker 3: If that's your equation, then it's not going to be pretty.

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Speaker 2: Now.

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Speaker 3: The addendum to that is that doesn't mean you're a pushover.

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Speaker 3: A lot of people take inflexibility plus inflexibility equals melt

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Speaker 3: down to me and Okay, so my kid's inflexible already,

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Speaker 3: then I have to be perfectly flexible. Where do I

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Speaker 3: have influence at that point? No one said that we

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Speaker 3: are replacing your inflexibility with one hundred percent flexibility. It's

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Speaker 3: just that the math equation still holds. If you pair

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Speaker 3: two inflexible people with each other, it's not going to

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Speaker 3: be pretty. That's where the problem solving process comes in.

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Speaker 3: This is just not about being inflexible with somebody who's

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Speaker 3: already inflexible. This is about proactively and collaboratively solving the

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Speaker 3: problems that you are being inflexible about in the first place,

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Speaker 3: so that there's really no inflexibility left in the equation.

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Speaker 1: Let's talk about timing here, because so often parents will say, well,

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Speaker 1: my child's being inflexible. I know that I'm supposed to

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Speaker 1: be flexible here, which means that we need to have

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Speaker 1: a collaborative and proactive conversation. But if we reflect on

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Speaker 1: the high emotions equals on intelligence idea, how do you

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Speaker 1: communicate with parents around the idea that we obviously need

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Speaker 1: to find a solution really quickly because there's a problem

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Speaker 1: right here, right now. But this isn't necessarily the time

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Speaker 1: to sit down and try to work out a collabortive

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Speaker 1: and proactive solution, because we're going to end up with

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Speaker 1: a meltdown. And I guess the other challenge is so

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Speaker 1: many parents will say, but I have the right to

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Speaker 1: be inflexible because I'm thirty years older than this child,

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Speaker 1: or forty years older than this child, and I know

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Speaker 1: what I'm talking about. I know that I'm right. They

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Speaker 1: need to listen to me.

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Speaker 3: I have the right because I'm thirty years older to

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Speaker 3: make a great big mess out of something that didn't

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Speaker 3: have to be a great big mess in the first place.

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Speaker 1: And yet so many parents will hold fastest to that

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Speaker 1: right in the moment, We're so right.

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Speaker 3: The goal of the CPS model is to get people

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Speaker 3: out of the moment. Yeah, whatever expectation this kid is

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Speaker 3: having difficulty meeting right now, I promise you it's not

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Speaker 3: the first time. In fact, it's probably the fiftieth time.

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Speaker 3: Why we are still dealing with it in the heat

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Speaker 3: of the moment when it is entirely predictable, is probably

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Speaker 3: because we haven't yet made a list of all of

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Speaker 3: the expectations the kid is having difficulty meeting and prioritize

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Speaker 3: that list so we know the unsolved problems. We're trying

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Speaker 3: to solve right now, and we know the ones that

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Speaker 3: we're trying to put on.

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Speaker 2: Hold right now.

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Speaker 3: The first edition of The Explosive Child was mostly about

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Speaker 3: solving problems in the heat of the moment. Every addition

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Speaker 3: since then has been about solving problems proactively, which simply

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Speaker 3: means making your list of every single expectation your child

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Speaker 3: is having difficulty meeting reliably, whether they can meet it

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Speaker 3: sometimes and not others, it's still an unsolved problem, deciding

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Speaker 3: which two or three you're going to start working on first,

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Speaker 3: and starting to solve those problems proactively, not just collaboratively.

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Speaker 3: In the CPS model as well as in other places,

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Speaker 3: we would call that get out in front of it.

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Speaker 3: If you don't get out in front of it, you're

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Speaker 3: going to be behind the eight ball every single time

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Speaker 3: and saying, well, what am I supposed to do? I've

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Speaker 3: got time pressure, I'm in the heat of the moment.

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Speaker 3: That is not a given. You make your list, you're

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Speaker 3: not going to be in the heat of the moment anymore.

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Speaker 3: As we frequently say to the parents we work with,

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Speaker 3: I'm going to get you out of the heat of

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Speaker 3: the moment, but you need your list first.

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Speaker 1: At which point you then sit down with your child

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Speaker 1: and you ask them what's up. You seem to be

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Speaker 1: having difficulty to go back to the language, you seem

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Speaker 1: to be having difficulty here, what's up? And then you

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Speaker 1: work through that collaborative conversation where you explore their world,

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Speaker 1: make sure that they understand what the expectations and the

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Speaker 1: limits are, and then work on solutions together that are

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Speaker 1: satisfactory for both parties to the extent that you can.

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Speaker 1: You got it, Yeah, beautiful Ross. One more big question

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Speaker 1: that I think every parent will want to hear an

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Speaker 1: answer to. You have an entire chapter devoted to the

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Speaker 1: truth about consequences. This is the favorite topic of mine.

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Speaker 1: I love talking about it, but I love the way

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Speaker 1: that you articulate the ideas in this chapter. Would you

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Speaker 1: just help parents to get a sense of what the

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Speaker 1: truth really is about consequences and how they impact on

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Speaker 1: a child's ability to either be flexible and adaptible and

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Speaker 1: to tolerate frustration well and all the things that we've

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Speaker 1: talked about, the emotion regulation and so on. What's the

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00:25:22,000 --> 00:25:23,320
Speaker 1: truth about consequences?

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00:25:24,200 --> 00:25:28,119
Speaker 3: The truth about consequences is that they're overrated and we

435
00:25:28,200 --> 00:25:33,280
Speaker 3: rely on them much too heavily. There's other aspects of

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00:25:33,359 --> 00:25:37,560
Speaker 3: parenting that are far more important than consequences. But the

437
00:25:37,560 --> 00:25:43,400
Speaker 3: bottom line is, consequences are behavior modification strategies. What you're

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00:25:43,480 --> 00:25:47,919
Speaker 3: consequencing our behaviors you don't like, and you're rewarding the

439
00:25:47,960 --> 00:25:50,600
Speaker 3: behaviors you do like, and you're punishing the behaviors you

440
00:25:50,640 --> 00:25:54,800
Speaker 3: don't like. Just one problem with that. There's a problem

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00:25:54,840 --> 00:25:58,280
Speaker 3: that's causing that behavior. There's an expectation your child is

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00:25:58,280 --> 00:26:02,920
Speaker 3: having difficulty meeting. It's causing that behavior. Concerning behaviors don't

443
00:26:02,960 --> 00:26:05,600
Speaker 3: occur out of the blue. They occur when a kid

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00:26:05,720 --> 00:26:08,919
Speaker 3: is having difficulty meeting a particular expectation. And the truth

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00:26:08,960 --> 00:26:14,080
Speaker 3: about consequences is that they do not solve any problems.

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00:26:14,800 --> 00:26:18,080
Speaker 3: And I'm quite convinced that they don't teach the skills

447
00:26:18,200 --> 00:26:23,280
Speaker 3: that these kids are found to be lacking. And so

448
00:26:23,359 --> 00:26:29,720
Speaker 3: that's why I'm saying that they're overrated. Yes, rewarding, rewarding,

449
00:26:29,760 --> 00:26:33,760
Speaker 3: and punishing. Behavior modification, what is known as parent management training,

450
00:26:34,440 --> 00:26:39,160
Speaker 3: is an evidence based approach. It's evidence based for modifying behavior.

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00:26:39,560 --> 00:26:42,359
Speaker 3: That's what consequences are good at. And I was trained

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00:26:42,359 --> 00:26:45,000
Speaker 3: in consequences early in my career. That's how I was trained,

453
00:26:45,680 --> 00:26:48,520
Speaker 3: but they don't solve the problems that are causing that behavior.

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00:26:48,560 --> 00:26:53,480
Speaker 3: So evidence based though they might be, here's what I say.

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00:26:53,560 --> 00:26:56,960
Speaker 3: We can no longer be satisfied with merely improving a

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00:26:57,040 --> 00:27:00,680
Speaker 3: kid's behavior if the problems that are causing that behavior

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00:27:00,840 --> 00:27:07,920
Speaker 3: remain unsolved, It's not enough. And the best news is this,

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00:27:08,880 --> 00:27:12,520
Speaker 3: if we solve the problem that's causing the behavior collaboratively

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00:27:12,560 --> 00:27:17,240
Speaker 3: and proactively, not only is the problem solved, the behaviors

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00:27:17,240 --> 00:27:21,639
Speaker 3: that were being caused by that problem subside. We've all

461
00:27:21,680 --> 00:27:27,240
Speaker 3: heard the cliche behavior is communication. All concerning behavior communicates

462
00:27:27,320 --> 00:27:29,880
Speaker 3: is that there's an expectation that kid is having difficulty meeting.

463
00:27:30,840 --> 00:27:34,320
Speaker 3: Once that problem is solved, the need for concerning behavior

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00:27:34,440 --> 00:27:39,320
Speaker 3: is gone and the need for consequencing the behavior is gone.

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00:27:40,560 --> 00:27:42,720
Speaker 1: I love the way you articulate that. I've come under

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00:27:42,760 --> 00:27:46,680
Speaker 1: fire from some people who have very strong opinions about

467
00:27:46,680 --> 00:27:49,400
Speaker 1: how we should be dealing with children and the consequences

468
00:27:49,400 --> 00:27:53,439
Speaker 1: that they need to face for saying quite explicitly, I

469
00:27:53,480 --> 00:27:56,240
Speaker 1: have it a personal goal, and it's something that I

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00:27:56,320 --> 00:27:58,760
Speaker 1: encourage the parents that I work with to have as

471
00:27:58,760 --> 00:28:02,359
Speaker 1: a goal. To never get my children in trouble. My

472
00:28:02,440 --> 00:28:04,360
Speaker 1: goal is to not get them in trouble. I don't

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00:28:04,359 --> 00:28:05,720
Speaker 1: want to be punishing them. I don't want to be

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00:28:05,720 --> 00:28:07,639
Speaker 1: bribing them. I don't want to be sticking them in

475
00:28:07,680 --> 00:28:10,000
Speaker 1: their room. I don't want to be threatening them. My

476
00:28:10,040 --> 00:28:12,639
Speaker 1: goal is to never get them in trouble. And some

477
00:28:12,680 --> 00:28:17,359
Speaker 1: people will misinterpret that as me becoming permissive. Lais a

478
00:28:17,480 --> 00:28:20,240
Speaker 1: fair letting the children have no rules to whatever they want.

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00:28:20,840 --> 00:28:24,480
Speaker 1: But to the contrary, consistent with what you've described, when

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00:28:24,480 --> 00:28:26,280
Speaker 1: I see that we've got a challenge or a problem

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00:28:26,400 --> 00:28:29,919
Speaker 1: or a difficulty in our home, that becomes now an

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00:28:29,960 --> 00:28:33,240
Speaker 1: opportunity for connection. It becomes an opportunity for communication, It

483
00:28:33,240 --> 00:28:37,879
Speaker 1: becomes an opportunity for flexibility and adaptability and development of

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00:28:38,000 --> 00:28:42,280
Speaker 1: frustration tolerance and emotion regulation and ultimately problem solving. And

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00:28:42,320 --> 00:28:45,520
Speaker 1: if we solve those problems effectively, we never need to

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00:28:45,520 --> 00:28:48,560
Speaker 1: get anyone in trouble in our home ever. And it

487
00:28:48,560 --> 00:28:52,040
Speaker 1: feels amazing to not be getting the kids in trouble.

488
00:28:52,040 --> 00:28:56,120
Speaker 1: I mean, it's the ultimate for me, it's the ultimate goal.

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00:28:56,600 --> 00:28:58,880
Speaker 1: Don't get the kids in trouble, just work out solutions

490
00:28:58,880 --> 00:29:00,000
Speaker 1: when problems are right.

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00:29:00,040 --> 00:29:05,840
Speaker 3: Yes, this paradigm that if you're not consequencing, you must be.

492
00:29:05,840 --> 00:29:12,360
Speaker 3: Being passive and permissive is absolute total bs. You have

493
00:29:13,240 --> 00:29:17,840
Speaker 3: lots of options besides consequencing. They don't make you passive,

494
00:29:17,920 --> 00:29:21,800
Speaker 3: they don't make you permissive. In my opinion, punishing a kid,

495
00:29:22,960 --> 00:29:24,840
Speaker 3: at least on the surface of it, is a heck

496
00:29:24,880 --> 00:29:27,960
Speaker 3: of a lot easier than solving a problem with a kid.

497
00:29:28,000 --> 00:29:30,800
Speaker 3: It's harder over the long haul because you're solving nothing

498
00:29:31,400 --> 00:29:34,960
Speaker 3: by consequencing the kid. But it's not hard to say

499
00:29:34,960 --> 00:29:36,920
Speaker 3: to a kid, you just lost TV for a week.

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00:29:37,680 --> 00:29:38,880
Speaker 3: Look how easy that was.

501
00:29:39,560 --> 00:29:39,760
Speaker 2: Right.

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00:29:40,200 --> 00:29:42,400
Speaker 3: Sitting down with a kid to solve a problem much

503
00:29:42,400 --> 00:29:44,960
Speaker 3: more difficult. But only one of those two things is

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00:29:44,960 --> 00:29:47,760
Speaker 3: actually going to solve the problem.

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00:29:47,960 --> 00:29:52,160
Speaker 1: Russ. Your book is The Explosive Child Revised and Updated

506
00:29:52,760 --> 00:29:55,920
Speaker 1: and you approach for understanding and pairing easily frustrated, chronically

507
00:29:56,000 --> 00:29:58,600
Speaker 1: inflexible children. People can get that online wherever they want

508
00:29:59,200 --> 00:30:02,000
Speaker 1: you provide. I have loads of resources for parents who

509
00:30:02,040 --> 00:30:06,040
Speaker 1: have rigid and inflexible children, explosive children, children who don't

510
00:30:06,040 --> 00:30:09,440
Speaker 1: regulate particularly well, and I think that your resources are

511
00:30:09,800 --> 00:30:12,280
Speaker 1: absolutely worth shouting from the rooftops If people want to

512
00:30:12,360 --> 00:30:15,440
Speaker 1: learn more about what you do and how your work

513
00:30:15,480 --> 00:30:18,400
Speaker 1: can help their family, where should they be visiting. Where

514
00:30:18,440 --> 00:30:19,640
Speaker 1: would you send them?

515
00:30:20,200 --> 00:30:26,320
Speaker 3: Lives indebalance dot org l Ives in the Balance dot org.

516
00:30:27,080 --> 00:30:29,719
Speaker 3: Lives in the Balance is the nonprofit that I've founded

517
00:30:29,760 --> 00:30:33,320
Speaker 3: in two thousand and nine, and the first goal of

518
00:30:33,400 --> 00:30:36,960
Speaker 3: me founding Lives in the Balance was to provide all

519
00:30:37,040 --> 00:30:39,840
Speaker 3: kinds of free resources to people who wanted to learn

520
00:30:39,880 --> 00:30:43,160
Speaker 3: more about this model without them necessarily having to buy

521
00:30:43,160 --> 00:30:47,120
Speaker 3: a book. So the website is better than it's ever been,

522
00:30:47,400 --> 00:30:50,880
Speaker 3: more resources than there have ever been. We're constantly adding

523
00:30:51,000 --> 00:30:54,880
Speaker 3: to it. It's their waiting for people and livesndebalance dot

524
00:30:54,880 --> 00:30:58,600
Speaker 3: oorg works just as well on the Internet in Australia

525
00:30:58,680 --> 00:31:01,000
Speaker 3: as it does here in the United States.

526
00:31:01,240 --> 00:31:03,400
Speaker 1: Lives Inthebalance dot org. We will link to that in

527
00:31:03,440 --> 00:31:05,760
Speaker 1: the show notes. Also a quick plug. It's very very

528
00:31:05,760 --> 00:31:08,160
Speaker 1: early days, but we were chatting before I press the

529
00:31:08,200 --> 00:31:10,800
Speaker 1: record button. You're heading to Australia. I'm sure people will

530
00:31:10,840 --> 00:31:13,440
Speaker 1: be excited to hear that limited information at the moment,

531
00:31:13,480 --> 00:31:15,800
Speaker 1: but if people follow you on Facebook or check your website,

532
00:31:15,800 --> 00:31:18,080
Speaker 1: I'm sure that come. Did you say it was September?

533
00:31:18,280 --> 00:31:20,760
Speaker 3: September, I'll be in Australia for three weeks and like

534
00:31:20,960 --> 00:31:22,200
Speaker 3: eight or ten different cities.

535
00:31:22,400 --> 00:31:24,320
Speaker 1: Wonderful. Well, I'm looking forward to catching up with you

536
00:31:24,400 --> 00:31:26,120
Speaker 1: in person when you when you show up here on

537
00:31:26,160 --> 00:31:28,320
Speaker 1: our shores. Thanks so much for joining me on the podcast.

538
00:31:28,400 --> 00:31:29,680
Speaker 2: Rous thanks for having me on.

539
00:31:29,840 --> 00:31:32,239
Speaker 1: The Happy Families podcast is produced by Justin Rowland from

540
00:31:32,240 --> 00:31:34,680
Speaker 1: Bridge Media. Craig Bruce is our executive producer, and for

541
00:31:34,680 --> 00:31:36,920
Speaker 1: more information about what we've talked about today, check the

542
00:31:36,920 --> 00:31:40,560
Speaker 1: show notes or lives in theebalance dot org and as always,

543
00:31:40,640 --> 00:31:42,720
Speaker 1: a whole lot of great info to help make your

544
00:31:42,720 --> 00:31:45,640
Speaker 1: family happier is also available at happy families dot com

545
00:31:45,680 --> 00:31:46,120
Speaker 1: dot au