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Speaker 1: It's the Happy Families podcast. It's the podcast for the

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Speaker 1: time poor parent who just once answers now. Hello. This

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Speaker 1: is doctor Justin Coilson, the founder of Happy Families dot com,

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Speaker 1: dot you, and the co host and parenting expert on

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Speaker 1: Channel Line's Parental Guidance. Today a conversation with Damien Cave

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Speaker 1: about his brand new book It's called Parenting Like an Australian.

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Speaker 1: Parenting Like an Australian One family's quest to fight fear

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Speaker 1: and dive into a better, braver life. Damien Cave is

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Speaker 1: a New York Times correspondent based in Sydney.

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Speaker 2: He arrived in.

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Speaker 1: Sydney with one mission, and that was to make the

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Speaker 1: Times awesome over here. Damien and his wife Diana were

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Speaker 1: finalists for the Pulitz Surprize in International Reporting in two

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Speaker 1: thousand and eight with a team in Baghdad where he

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Speaker 1: covered the Iraq War, and like I said, he's been

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Speaker 1: the Ossie Bureau chief since twenty seventeen here in Australia.

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Speaker 1: The book Parenting Like an Australian is what we're going

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Speaker 1: to discuss to Damien, thanks for joining me on the podcast.

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Speaker 2: Thank you for having me.

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Speaker 1: I want to start with something that you may not

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Speaker 1: have expected would be our jump off point. But as

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Speaker 1: I read the book, I saw so much, Like I

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Speaker 1: just resonate so much with what you're saying. Because I'm

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Speaker 1: an Australian and I love the ocean, I love surfing,

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Speaker 1: and the kids have done nippers and all the things

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Speaker 1: that you're writing about. I'm so excited for you to

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Speaker 1: be having these awful experiences learning what makes Australian Australian

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Speaker 1: life so great. I wonder if you can start by

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Speaker 1: sharing two epic failures that you write about in parenting

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Speaker 1: like an Australian.

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Speaker 2: Show me too.

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Speaker 1: Just the first time that I want to pick on

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Speaker 1: your first surf lesson how that came to be and

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Speaker 1: why it was so bad and what happened as a result.

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Speaker 1: And secondly, the first time you dived into the pool

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Speaker 1: for a timed four hundred meters swim, what that was

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Speaker 1: all about, the history of that and why that would

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Speaker 1: so badly.

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Speaker 2: Yes, happy to talk about both those. So in the

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Speaker 2: first case, and to some degree, this is the story

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Speaker 2: of the book. It's me sort of following my wife

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Speaker 2: and my kids into Australian life and me being kind

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Speaker 2: of the one lagging behind. So with surfing, my wife

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Speaker 2: got here from New York and just decided to dive

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Speaker 2: in and started surfing before any of us taking lessons

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Speaker 2: and getting into it. And of course, you know, I figured, well,

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Speaker 2: if she can do it, I should try it, and

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Speaker 2: figuring it couldn't be that hard. My dad had been

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Speaker 2: a surfer, we had tried surfing once before in Costa Rica,

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Speaker 2: and if I recall, she managed to stand up that

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Speaker 2: day and I did not, but undaunted, I went and

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Speaker 2: hadn't taken a lesson and just found it to be

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Speaker 2: so thrilling to be a beginner and to just be

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Speaker 2: laughing and falling over the place. And I completely looked ridiculous,

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Speaker 2: I'm sure, not just in that first lesson, but in

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Speaker 2: the second one and then the third one too, But

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Speaker 2: in a weird way, I was able to just get

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Speaker 2: like just enough improvement to sort of relish the idea

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Speaker 2: of being a beginner at something. And so you know,

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Speaker 2: standing for even a split second felt good and felt

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Speaker 2: like a triumph. And I don't know, I'm sure every

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Speaker 2: lots of your listeners have had this experience, because I

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Speaker 2: think it's pretty common among Australians. But I was learning

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Speaker 2: to kind of be a child again and learn to

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Speaker 2: kind of be a beginner again, and I was extremely

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Speaker 2: grateful for that, even though it took me many, many

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Speaker 2: years to go from that to being a somewhat decent surfer.

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Speaker 2: So that was the first mistake in the first failure

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Speaker 2: that led to I guess, a period of joy. The

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Speaker 2: second one was frankly more brutal. Where after my son

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Speaker 2: had been doing nippers for a year or two and

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Speaker 2: you know, had a love hate rate relationship with it,

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Speaker 2: like a lot of kids, I think was like, all right, dad,

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Speaker 2: I'll do it again, but you got to do it too,

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Speaker 2: So get your bronze medallion and join me in the water.

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Speaker 2: And you know, by this point i'd seen other parents

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Speaker 2: in the water. You know, that part didn't seem that difficult.

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Speaker 2: But like the idiot that I am previously with surfing,

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Speaker 2: I don't really pay that much attention to what the

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Speaker 2: details are. It turns out it's a time swim of

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Speaker 2: four hundred meters. Some other American I know who have

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Speaker 2: done it somewhere else said, oh, it's not that bad,

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Speaker 2: you know, so you can do the breaststroke a little bit.

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Speaker 2: The timing's not that much. And meanwhile I'm doing it

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Speaker 2: in Bronti in this really intense dangerous speech with a

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Speaker 2: bunch of surf club people who were very strict about

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Speaker 2: such things. And so I dive in the pool thinking,

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Speaker 2: you know, and this is the pool in Broncho, right,

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Speaker 2: it's thirty meters, So I have to do I think

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Speaker 2: fourteen laps, and literally by the second lap, I think

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Speaker 2: I'm going to die. Like I realized that I've actually

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Speaker 2: never tried to swim this far timed in my entire life,

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Speaker 2: and so I don't know what I was thinking thinking

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Speaker 2: this would work. My goal was just to finish. And

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Speaker 2: so by the time I finished, you know, I think

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Speaker 2: I needed to do it in eight forty five, and

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Speaker 2: I did it in almost ten and a half minutes.

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Speaker 2: And you know, Kimberly, who I later in the book,

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Speaker 2: as you see I've become friends with, you know, says

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Speaker 2: tries to be encouraging and says, oh, well, your stroke

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Speaker 2: seems fine. It's just fitness. But here I am in

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Speaker 2: this pool, failing in front of all these people who

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Speaker 2: are in many cases older and seem to be less

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Speaker 2: sipped and fit than me, but still do a better

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Speaker 2: job and my son who came down to watch me

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Speaker 2: seemingly succeed and join him with nippers, and I have

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Speaker 2: to leave as a failure and walk back home with

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Speaker 2: him and deal with that. And you know, failure brings

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Speaker 2: out good things, maybe in us as parents and sometimes

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Speaker 2: in our kids too. Like he was kind and sympathetic

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Speaker 2: and in some weird way seemed to bond with me

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Speaker 2: and my failure. Instead of Dad being the one pushing

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Speaker 2: him to go harder, he suddenly was the one trying

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Speaker 2: to comfort me for failure.

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Speaker 1: Parenting Like an Australian is a book that is not

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Speaker 1: so much about parenting, but it's more about us at

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Speaker 1: least that's the feeling that I've had as I've read

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Speaker 1: through the book. Yes, there's a lot about what Australians

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Speaker 1: do with their kids that's different to what you might

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Speaker 1: see in middle class America, especially places like New York, California.

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Speaker 1: But as I've been making my way through this book,

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Speaker 1: I'm actually seeing a story about a dad who is,

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Speaker 1: I guess, flailing and trying to figure out how to

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Speaker 1: have a healthy relationship with risk. Can you tell me

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Speaker 1: about why you decided to write a book about taking

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Speaker 1: risks and how parents in Australia do it differently to

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Speaker 1: what you're familiar with in North America.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, sure, I mean I think my wife and I

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Speaker 2: thought we kind of understood risk because you know, we'd

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Speaker 2: covered wars, we'd covered hurricanes, and as journalists, we had

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Speaker 2: experienced with risk in a professional setting. But as parents,

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Speaker 2: you know, raising our kids in the United States and

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Speaker 2: in Mexico for a bit, we were constantly struck by

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Speaker 2: just how protective the culture was in the United States,

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Speaker 2: you know, where anytime you got kids near water or

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Speaker 2: a certain kind of plastic or a certain food, there

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Speaker 2: were concerns as if it was just going to ruin

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Speaker 2: their lives completely, and we didn't realize that we had

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Speaker 2: taken on some of those feelings. And so by the

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Speaker 2: time we got to Australia, I was fascinated by the

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Speaker 2: way that Australians deal with nature and the risks of

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Speaker 2: nature and these things that I didn't expect to be

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Speaker 2: afraid of, like the ocean, but that I was for

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Speaker 2: myself and for my kids. And what I guess it

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Speaker 2: made me do was kind of try to clarify that

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Speaker 2: experience of how risk works. Like I think I came

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Speaker 2: in thinking, well, some people are risk takers and some

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Speaker 2: are not. It's personality driven. But the deeper I got

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Speaker 2: into it in part because of my experience in Australia

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Speaker 2: and jarred by how scared I was. It made me

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Speaker 2: really study the science and really kind of discover that actually,

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Speaker 2: you know, risk is more malleable, that it's not just personality.

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Speaker 2: It's what we're taught, it's the culture we're around, it's

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Speaker 2: the people that were around, it's how much of it

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Speaker 2: we actually embrace and we can get better at it.

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Speaker 2: And so that's the piece of it that I think

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Speaker 2: was really what I found myself exploring. And you're right,

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Speaker 2: I was flailing, and to me, part of it was

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Speaker 2: trying to figure out why I was flailing when I

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Speaker 2: had this impression of myself as being a risk taker,

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Speaker 2: and yet there were certain kinds of at risk that

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Speaker 2: I was really bad at. And it wasn't just the

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Speaker 2: ocean in nature. It was social risks, you know, like

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Speaker 2: joining things and being part of something in a way

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Speaker 2: that Australians just take for granted. And so that was

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Speaker 2: I guess what made me sort of explore this, and

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Speaker 2: I think in the end, you're right. The book is

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Speaker 2: in some ways about parenting, but it's really about parents

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Speaker 2: and in the way that we as adults live our lives.

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Speaker 2: Because one of the things I think is underestimated sometimes

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Speaker 2: in parenting and parenting books is it's not just about

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Speaker 2: how we talk to our kids. It's what we do

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Speaker 2: when we're around our kids. It's what we do with

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Speaker 2: our kids. And they learn a lot more from kind

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Speaker 2: of watching us and being with us than they do

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Speaker 2: from us lecturing that. And I think that's sort of

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Speaker 2: what Australia and Australian life helped teach me, is that

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Speaker 2: participating and being active and engaged as a parent and

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Speaker 2: living your best life as a father in some ways

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Speaker 2: can help you be a better that.

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Speaker 1: One of the great things about reading a book by

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Speaker 1: somebody who is a New York Times correspondent and bureau

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Speaker 1: chief is the writing is fantastic. In the introduction, we're

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Speaker 1: not even on a page number yet we're still in

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Speaker 1: the Roman numerals to the introduction you write. In so

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Speaker 1: much of Western culture, we've drifted into a cycle of

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Speaker 1: self centered self protection. We seek physical comfort and total

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Speaker 1: psychological security. We have prioritized attention, feelings and speech. Not

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Speaker 1: good conduct. Our phones and algorithms promise connection but serve

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Speaker 1: up isolation. Every day. We choose convenience over uncertainty, overvaluing pleasure,

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Speaker 1: and ignoring what being challenged has to teach. I love

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Speaker 1: the way that you're right, But I'd love to ask you,

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Speaker 1: as you've been in Australia for Networks six years or thereabouts,

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Speaker 1: have you seen the Australian way of parenting drifting towards

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Speaker 1: the American way of parenting? Do you think that we're

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Speaker 1: becoming increasingly oriented towards self protection and comfort and safety.

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Speaker 1: Are we adopting the safety ism that's so prevalent and

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Speaker 1: so dominant in your home country?

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Speaker 2: You know, I do think so. I've seen it kind

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Speaker 2: of over the time that I've been here, and part

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Speaker 2: of the reason I've felt compelled to write the book

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Speaker 2: is because I didn't want Australia to go too far

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Speaker 2: down that road, and I wanted Australians to sort of,

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Speaker 2: maybe with the little help from an outsider perspective, really

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Speaker 2: grab onto the things that I think make the place special.

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Speaker 2: I think I think as a country becomes wealthier, and

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Speaker 2: there's plenty of evidence to suggest that this is the case,

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Speaker 2: beyond just my opinions that are surveys and data around this.

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Speaker 2: But as countries become more comfortable, they become more risk

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Speaker 2: averse that you know, as parents, we choose use things

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Speaker 2: that are safer. So we know that in Australia fewer

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Speaker 2: kids are walking to school now than they did, you know,

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Speaker 2: ten or twenty years ago, but compared to the United States,

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Speaker 2: there are still more kids walking to the school here

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Speaker 2: than there are in the US, And so that in

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Speaker 2: some ways, the way I think I described it at

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Speaker 2: some point in the book is you know, it's happening

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Speaker 2: in Australia, but it's not quite a terminal illness like

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Speaker 2: it is in the United States. Both risk and connection

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Speaker 2: and human connection, I think Austrians, you know, as we

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Speaker 2: all retreat into our phones and as our digital lives

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Speaker 2: become richer, it's harder and harder to push ourselves and

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Speaker 2: our kids out into that in real life experience. But

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Speaker 2: I do still think that Australians have not crossed the rootbicon.

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Speaker 2: They haven't gotten to that point yet where it's very

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Speaker 2: very hard to pull themselves back, whereas in a lot

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Speaker 2: of parts of the US I think they have. And

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Speaker 2: so you know that I think is the challenge that

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Speaker 2: maybe it's a bit of a wake up call for

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Speaker 2: Australians to say, hey, you know, keep sending your kids

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Speaker 2: to bush camp, make them put their phones down, you know,

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Speaker 2: make them find a way to get out in the

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Speaker 2: world and talk to their friends and not just retreat

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Speaker 2: to their screens. Because it's a better world that way.

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Speaker 2: It honestly is.

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Speaker 1: On page seventy. You quite a study in twenty twenty

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Speaker 1: one study one hundred and eighty five parents. You say

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Speaker 1: a majority of mothers and fathers said they believe that

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Speaker 1: teaching that children the world was dangerous would keep them safe.

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Speaker 1: Can you just talk a little bit about that.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, you know, this is sort of one of a

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Speaker 2: bunch of different studies that I found that are somewhat counterintuitive. Right,

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Speaker 2: you think the natural urge and what's best for our

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Speaker 2: kids is to say, hey, you need to be careful

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Speaker 2: out there. The world is a scary place. But what

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Speaker 2: that often does is make them more nervous and more anxious,

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Speaker 2: and actually optimism and a sense of hey, it's going

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Speaker 2: to be okay is in some ways healthier for our kids.

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Speaker 2: Because you know, even if you look at the probability.

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Speaker 2: Most of the time, that's how it's going to be.

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Speaker 2: It's going to turn out okay. And in some ways

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Speaker 2: there are some cultures that maybe do a better job

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Speaker 2: with this. I think Australia is one of them, but

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Speaker 2: it's not just Australia. There was this interesting study that

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Speaker 2: I found from Scandinavia that showed that kids who climb

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Speaker 2: trees and suffer injuries, even broken arms, are less likely

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Speaker 2: to be afraid of heights as they become adults. And

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Speaker 2: so if you think about it, it is actually somewhat

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Speaker 2: logical if you expose yourself to things that are frightening,

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Speaker 2: if you expose yourself to the dangerous world, and then

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Speaker 2: overcome whatever that challenge is and heal for whatever injury

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Speaker 2: you've had or don't get injured, which is usually the case,

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Speaker 2: then naturally you have more confidence and more optimism about life,

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Speaker 2: and you're probably going to embrace more challenges. And so,

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Speaker 2: you know, this is one of the things that the

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Speaker 2: psychological research really really shows that kind of goes against

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Speaker 2: that natural parental urge. And so you know, sometimes as

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Speaker 2: one you know, expert I talked to you said, listen,

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Speaker 2: if you don't have enough risk in your life. You

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Speaker 2: actually need to go look for it, you know, like

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Speaker 2: for you and your kids. And you can't tell your

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Speaker 2: kids to try to avoid risk all the time because

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Speaker 2: it's not possible. It's an impossibility, and so you've got

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Speaker 2: to figure out some way to confront it as adults

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Speaker 2: and with your kids.

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Speaker 1: So I'm even having a thought as you describe that,

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Speaker 1: and I'm thinking, we've got this idea even using the

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Speaker 1: word risk. I don't know if it's because of our

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Speaker 1: history of insurance claims or the fact that there is

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Speaker 1: so much that can go wrong, but we've got this

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Speaker 1: idea that risk is bad. My sense is that risk

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Speaker 1: is generally actually really healthy and it's essential to thrive.

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Speaker 1: Like there's a risk when you invite somebody on a date.

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Speaker 1: There's a risk, when you try a new food. There's

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Speaker 1: risk when you sign up for the musical and try

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Speaker 1: to get a part in the musical at school, or

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Speaker 1: when you run the cross country and decide that you're

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Speaker 1: going to run hard because you want to you're on

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Speaker 1: a place and move on to the next level. To me,

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Speaker 1: it seems like we want to we need to be

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Speaker 1: encouraging our children to take risks.

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Speaker 2: Exactly. That's exactly. A risk is inevitable. It's like oxygen.

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Speaker 2: You can't try to get away from it. You have

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Speaker 2: to figure out, you know, how to breathe it in

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Speaker 2: and digest it and make the most of it. And

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Speaker 2: so you know what's interesting too in the research is

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Speaker 2: the people who are really experts in this, if you

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Speaker 2: think of EMTs or soldiers, that the ability to deal

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Speaker 2: with risk in one environment and do it well can

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Speaker 2: actually be transferred to other parts of life. Right, So

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Speaker 2: if you're really good at dealing with the stressful risk situation,

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Speaker 2: say you're a paratrooper, and there's a study that shows this,

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Speaker 2: then when you take a test after that parachute trump

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Speaker 2: which is another say stressful environment, but maybe it's about

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Speaker 2: English and literature and not paratrooping, you're more likely to

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Speaker 2: do well on that test. And so the way that

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Speaker 2: we deal with risk actually has long term benefits, not

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Speaker 2: just in the environment in which we take the risk,

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Speaker 2: but also in the way we deal with life. And

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Speaker 2: so you're right, learning how to deal with maybe saving

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Speaker 2: a life on a beach might not seem the same

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Speaker 2: as how to deal with a date and distressful distress

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Speaker 2: that comes with that, but in a lot of ways

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Speaker 2: that it actually is transferable, something in our minds that

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Speaker 2: actually learns how to manage moderate stress and risk and

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Speaker 2: danger and one in their arena and then we get

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Speaker 2: better at it in others. Yeah.

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Speaker 1: In the book Parenting Like an Australian One Family's Quest

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Speaker 1: to fight fear and dive into a better braver life,

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Speaker 1: Damian Cave, you talk to Martin Siligman, one of the

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Speaker 1: world's leading experts in psychology. He's one of the most

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Speaker 1: cited psychology professes in the history of the world. He's

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Speaker 1: obviously extremely well renowned, and he makes the case both

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Speaker 1: in conversation with you as you put it into I

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Speaker 1: think it's chapter two of the book, but also in

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Speaker 1: his own books. He makes the case that we feel

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Speaker 1: more confident, which is kind of what you're describing here.

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Speaker 1: We feel more confident as we build our competence. The

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Speaker 1: only way we can build our competence is to push

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Speaker 1: the boundaries of what feels safe, like we have to

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Speaker 1: step into a risk environment one way or another so

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Speaker 1: that we can expand our competence and therefore become more confident.

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Speaker 2: I mean, Marty's wonderful and he's such a thoughtful, kind guy.

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Speaker 2: I mean, he's this, you know, super renowned guy who

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Speaker 2: you get him on the phone and the first thing

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Speaker 2: he wants to do is ask you a bunch of

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Speaker 2: questions about yourself. And so I always appreciate people who

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Speaker 2: have that capacity. But you know, I think one of

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Speaker 2: the things that he really opened my eyes to is

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Speaker 2: this sort of reversal of sort of how I always

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Speaker 2: raised as a kid, which is that and to some

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Speaker 2: degree I think in this generation too, where it's if

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Speaker 2: you say nice things, if you build up someone's self

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Speaker 2: esteem with words, if you say, hey, you're really great

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Speaker 2: at this, then that gives you the ability to try

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Speaker 2: become competent in the activity that you want to seek

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Speaker 2: master in. But as he argues, it's the opposite. You

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Speaker 2: actually have to push yourself into that activity even if

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Speaker 2: you don't feel confident, and learn how to do it

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Speaker 2: and get better at it and fail and try again

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Speaker 2: and see some improvement, and then then you start to

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Speaker 2: feel confident enough to say hey, I'm good at this,

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Speaker 2: and that that lasts longer in a lot of ways.

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Speaker 2: I mean, for me, Australia was a place that I

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Speaker 2: had to learn this through this world that I read

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Speaker 2: about a lot in the book, which is proficiency, right,

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Speaker 2: and so you know, I argue that Americans often seek perfection.

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Speaker 2: In Australians seek proficiency, which is really to be skilled

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Speaker 2: at something. Being skilled to something isn't the same as

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Speaker 2: being perfect at it. And in order to do that,

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Speaker 2: you need to just advance. You just need to keep

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Speaker 2: going and keep getting better at it. And I think

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Speaker 2: that's kind of the point that Marty and many others

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Speaker 2: have been trying to make for a lot of years,

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Speaker 2: and that some parts of Australian culture just kind of

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Speaker 2: naturally do.

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Speaker 1: I love the blistering critique that you have of the

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Speaker 1: self esteem movement and why it has not been a

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Speaker 1: net positive for humanity, especially for or for parents who

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Speaker 1: are trying to raise children who feel good about themselves.

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Speaker 1: This idea that if I make you feel good, then

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Speaker 1: you'll do hard things. It doesn't work that way. It's

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Speaker 1: the other way around. If you do hard things, you'll

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Speaker 1: feel good about yourself. When you came to Australia, you

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Speaker 1: signed up for nippers, you signed up for surf classes.

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Speaker 1: You began to move your body, run along the beach,

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Speaker 1: dive into the pool and try to swim that four

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Speaker 1: hundred meters fast enough. I don't want to drop any

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Speaker 1: spoilers in so I'm not going to ask you whether

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Speaker 1: or not you finally got the four hundred meters under

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Speaker 1: the eight minutes forty five and whether you've got your

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Speaker 1: bronze medallion. But I do want to ask you this,

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Speaker 1: Now that you've been here for six years and you

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Speaker 1: are accustomed to the way that Australians do what they do.

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Speaker 1: What risks are you taking over and above the ones

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Speaker 1: that you've written about in the book. What are you

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Speaker 1: doing to encourage a mindset that embraces challenge in your children?

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Speaker 1: How have you extended this beyond nippers and bronze medallions.

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Speaker 2: That's a good question. I mean, I think now that

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Speaker 2: the pandemic has finally lifted, we're traveling quite a bit

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Speaker 2: more as family than we did previously. And so you know,

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Speaker 2: we found ourselves in Japan skiing in January. My kids

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Speaker 2: is skied once before in the total blizzard, and so

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Speaker 2: that was one thing. We just recently finished a long

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Speaker 2: road trip in Western Australia in a van, something that

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Speaker 2: we had hoped to do in twenty twenty, and we're

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Speaker 2: finally able to do, and as luck would have it,

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Speaker 2: there was a giant cyclone bearing down on us as

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Speaker 2: we were driving. So, you know, trying to manage risk,

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Speaker 2: figuring out when to go on the water and when

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Speaker 2: not do well in the middle of a remote area

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Speaker 2: was another thing. And so I think part of it

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Speaker 2: is we're trying to sort of push ourselves back out

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Speaker 2: into the world. Is one way that we're trying to

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Speaker 2: kind of continue that culture risk. And I also think frankly,

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Speaker 2: after the pandemic, we all had to kind of reacclimate

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Speaker 2: to the idea of risk in various ways. And so,

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Speaker 2: you know, one thing that I said to my kids

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Speaker 2: at some point, you know, maybe last year, was listen,

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Speaker 2: this this year, this is the year of yes. So

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Speaker 2: whenever something comes up that you're not sure of, instead

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Speaker 2: of thinking no, I'm not going to do it, I'm

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Speaker 2: nervous it, let's just immediately try to say yes and

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Speaker 2: then see where it goes. And so that's something that

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Speaker 2: I think we're trying to do as a family, and

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Speaker 2: hopefully we'll continue with it and we'll see beyond that.

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Speaker 2: You know, each my kids are doing different activities, different

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Speaker 2: things they feel uncomfortable with I'm about to throw my

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Speaker 2: kids into a sculpture class that they're a little bit

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Speaker 2: resistant to. And my wife and I are continuing to

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Speaker 2: do the same things too. I mean, we're trying to

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Speaker 2: push ourselves, you know, and surfing into bigger waves, and

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Speaker 2: you know, we're talking about where to spend time and

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Speaker 2: how much difficult travel we want to do in the

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Speaker 2: next year or two.

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Speaker 1: I love that as a as a keen surfer somebody's

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Speaker 1: been surfing since my team years. I just relished your

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Speaker 1: experiences at the beach and hearing about the way that

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Speaker 1: you embraced what Australian life can be. It was delightful

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Speaker 1: to read and it's also inspired me to have a

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Speaker 1: long conversation with my kids about how we can take

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Speaker 1: more risks and be more adventurous, maybe even on a

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Speaker 1: weekly basis. What can we do that's a little bit

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Speaker 1: scary a little more often. The book is called Parenting

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Speaker 1: Like an Australian One family's quest to fight fear and

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Speaker 1: dive into a better, braver life. It's got a whole

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Speaker 1: lot of science, a whole lot of memoir, and a

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Speaker 1: whole lot of delightful narrative that will keep any reader

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Speaker 1: completely absorbed. Damien Cave, thanks so much for joining me

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Speaker 1: on the podcast.

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Speaker 2: Thank you very much for having me.

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Speaker 1: The Happy Family Podcast is produced by Justin Ruland for

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Speaker 1: Bridge Media. Craig Bruce is our executive producer. For more

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Speaker 1: information about the book, you can check out our show

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Speaker 1: notes the book again Parenting Like an Australian. One Family's

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Speaker 1: quest to fight Fear and dive into a better, braver

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Speaker 1: life by Damien Cave. And For more about making your

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Speaker 1: family happy, please check out happy families dot com dot

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Speaker 1: u or our Facebook page doctor Justin Colson's Happy Families