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Speaker 1: It's the Happy Families podcast. It's the podcast for the

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Speaker 1: time poor parent who just once answers.

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Speaker 2: Now, my focus is on feelings, not words. Secondly, what

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Speaker 2: I'm doing is I'm gently exploring those emotions.

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Speaker 1: And now here's the stars of our show, My mom and.

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Speaker 2: Dad, Good Day, This doctor Justin Corson and the author

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Speaker 2: of six books about how to make your family happier.

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Speaker 2: And here with Kylie, mum to our six daughters and

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Speaker 2: love of my life, who tried so hard last night

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Speaker 2: to be romantic and to make it a special night. Well,

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Speaker 2: with all the children watching in the kitchen, do you

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Speaker 2: want to explain what happened, Kylie?

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Speaker 3: Well, I was driving in the car and this song

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Speaker 3: came on the radio and I was like, Oh, this

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Speaker 3: is an awesome song. I would love to share this

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Speaker 3: with you because it shares the sentiments of my heart.

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Speaker 1: Right.

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Speaker 2: So we dance in the kitchen all the.

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Speaker 3: Time, and you're the one who usually picks a song.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, so you like this song, No.

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Speaker 3: Afraid for you?

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Speaker 2: And so what's the story behind it? Let's fill everyone

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Speaker 2: in what happened?

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Speaker 3: Well, I decided to put it on.

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Speaker 2: We started statistic.

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Speaker 3: Can believe I can't believe it's true. Sometimes our fourteen

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Speaker 3: year old decided instead of listening that she would talk

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Speaker 3: over the top of.

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Speaker 2: It every lyric I get to love you.

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Speaker 3: I get to love you. You know where she got

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Speaker 3: it from, though, don't you.

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Speaker 2: All I know is that she was really destroying a

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Speaker 2: romantic moment.

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Speaker 3: And well it's a take off of High School Musical.

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Speaker 3: When they had the auditions.

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Speaker 2: I love that. That is so funny. If you haven't

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Speaker 2: seen High School Musical. There's this great song and they're

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Speaker 2: trying to find pe put a singing to the musical.

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Speaker 2: Somebody walks out on the stage for the auditions and

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Speaker 2: does this much.

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Speaker 1: That I cannot see that you were right site.

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Speaker 3: So we're trying to listen to this and if you

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Speaker 3: know the song, it doesn't sound like this. And as

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Speaker 3: she did this over the top of that beautiful song.

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Speaker 2: Trying to be romantic, try to have a moment with me,

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Speaker 2: and our fort and year old spoiled it.

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Speaker 1: Well.

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Speaker 3: I worked out how to clear out the room very quickly.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, I kissed me in front of the kids.

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Speaker 3: Lots of sound effects. Parents out there, if you need

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Speaker 3: some time out, just give your spouse or your partner

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Speaker 3: a great, big sloppy kiss and those kids will go running.

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Speaker 2: Yeah. I love it. How everyone's like, oh, the kids

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Speaker 2: never leave me alone. I never get a minute to myself.

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Speaker 2: Start kissing in front of them and they'll just they'll

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Speaker 2: leave the room, and then you'll be able to have

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Speaker 2: an uninterrupted conversation, no problems at all.

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Speaker 3: So honey, I love you.

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Speaker 2: Oh okay, not on the podcast. Seriously, everyone's gonna be like,

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Speaker 2: get a room, you two. Come on. We every Tuesday,

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Speaker 2: do our very best to answer your questions and make

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Speaker 2: your family happier. And Nicky sent through an email to

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Speaker 2: us with a doozy a really tough one that any

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Speaker 2: parent who has ever experienced this one, they just know

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Speaker 2: how hard it is.

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Speaker 3: She said, my five year old has started talking negatively

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Speaker 3: about himself in the last month, and I'm reaching out

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Speaker 3: for tips on how we can break this cycle. Please.

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Speaker 3: He calls himself stupid, forgetful, always says he can't do things,

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Speaker 3: he's just a dumb kid, he's naughty, an idiot, etc.

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Speaker 3: None of which we say to him, and I'm struggling

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Speaker 3: to identify the source. We have tried saying things like

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Speaker 3: you can't do them yet, or you will or can

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Speaker 3: give it a go. We tell him he's worked hard

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Speaker 3: or done a good job. It breaks my heart when

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Speaker 3: he says such things, and we're keen to hear how

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Speaker 3: we can change his thinking around this.

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Speaker 2: Yeah. Heartbreaking. Whenever you see one of your children with

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Speaker 2: that negative self talk, it it sort of crushes you

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Speaker 2: because all you want to do is build them up.

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Speaker 2: You want to pump up their tis. You want to

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Speaker 2: make them feel special and amazing and wonderful because that's

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Speaker 2: usually how you see them. And here they are saying

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Speaker 2: how terrible they are. And it's also really clear from

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Speaker 2: Nicky's email that they're very familiar with Carol Dwex growth

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Speaker 2: mindset idea, all of these ideas about well you can't

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Speaker 2: do it, yeah, but if you keep that at you'll

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Speaker 2: figure it out and come on, just give it a go.

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Speaker 2: And your brain's like a muscle and all you've got

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Speaker 2: to do is try and get stronger. All of those

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Speaker 2: things are coming out, but with a five year old,

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Speaker 2: they're approximately zero percent effective right now for someone who's

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Speaker 2: feeling lousy about himself.

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Speaker 3: Well, and the reality is it's not just our five

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Speaker 3: year olds who feel this way. Our teenagers go through

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Speaker 3: these experiences, as do our spouses and partners, siblings. We

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Speaker 3: deal with these kinds of stinking thinking thoughts in every relationship.

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Speaker 2: So funny that you call it stinking thinking, because that's

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Speaker 2: precisely the term that we would use in a psychology context. Too.

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Speaker 3: Might have listened to once or twel well.

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Speaker 2: One or two of my podcasts, you recond one of

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Speaker 2: my webinars here and there. That's precisely what we talk about. Specifically, though.

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Speaker 2: What's going on here is what psychologists would call cognitive distortions.

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Speaker 2: And you're very particularly prone to cognitive distortions when you've

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Speaker 2: got high emotions. You know what I say, high.

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Speaker 3: Emotions, emotions, low intelligence.

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Speaker 2: Low intelligence. So here you've got a child who's feeling

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Speaker 2: really big emotions, and during that big emotional moment, as

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Speaker 2: he thinks about himself and his inability to do whatever

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Speaker 2: the thing is that he's failing at because the emotions

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Speaker 2: are so high, there's no rational thinking.

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Speaker 3: Going on, Will becomes flooded.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, totally emotionally flooded. Because emotions are higher and intelligence

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Speaker 2: is low. He starts saying things about himself that reinforce

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Speaker 2: how he's feeling. That is, he feels done, therefore he

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Speaker 2: must be dumb. So we've got this cognitive distortion. We've

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Speaker 2: got high emotions, low intelligence, and it becomes a horrible habit.

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Speaker 2: Now I want to talk more about cognitive distortions in

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Speaker 2: a sec but there's something else going on that I

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Speaker 2: think might be even more important before we talk about them.

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Speaker 2: When our children make mistakes, they often feel shame. Now,

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Speaker 2: there's a difference between shame and guilt. And you've read

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Speaker 2: Brene Brown's books, so you'll know the way she distinguishes

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Speaker 2: between the two. And I think it's just such a

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Speaker 2: delightfully simple distinction. When you feel shame.

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Speaker 3: You feel like you're a bad person.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, like I can't do anything right. I'm just a

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Speaker 2: complete screw up. I'm a mess, I'm a failure. Whereas

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Speaker 2: when you feel guilt, rather than feeling that you're a

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Speaker 2: bad person.

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Speaker 3: I've done something bad.

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Speaker 2: Right, So guilt is actually really productive. I've done something bad,

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Speaker 2: and if you feel guilt, you're drawn to make amends

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Speaker 2: for it. But when you feel shame, that tends to

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Speaker 2: be unproductive. Often they go hand in hand, by the way,

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Speaker 2: But when you're feeling shame, specifically, I'm a bad person,

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Speaker 2: so We've got a five year old who thinks he's

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Speaker 2: a bad person. He's no good, he's a mess, he's

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Speaker 2: a failure. And with that shame if I'm a bad person,

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Speaker 2: comes an increase in anxiety. If I'm a bad person,

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Speaker 2: my parents won't love me because I I won't have

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Speaker 2: any Yeah, exactly, I'm going to be a failure. I

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Speaker 2: can never do anything right. And so the shame leads

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Speaker 2: to an increase in anxiety, which usually leads to a

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Speaker 2: child behaving in an unintelligent way. Why because emotions are high. Yeah, exactly,

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Speaker 2: that's right. So we get this horrible vicious circle and

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Speaker 2: all of that creates cognitive distortions, which.

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Speaker 3: And the more it happens, the more of a habit

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Speaker 3: you create, and the more the distortion grows and continues.

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Speaker 2: So I'm guessing that's exactly right. It becomes a self

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Speaker 2: fulfilling prophecy. It just reinforces itself with every action, with

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Speaker 2: every new opportunity to make a mess. And by the way,

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Speaker 2: to five year olds get things wrong very.

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Speaker 3: Often all the time, like all day, every day, because

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Speaker 3: they're still in the learning phase.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, they've got their l plates on, exactly, So I

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Speaker 2: think we probably need to spend just a minute reviewing

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Speaker 2: a couple of cognitive distortions that are really common, including

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Speaker 2: the ones that this five year old's experiencing, and then

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Speaker 2: we'll talk about our common responses and why they're wrong.

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Speaker 3: So NICKI has every right to be worried about her

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Speaker 3: five year old right now. Yes, and no, I'm not

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Speaker 3: suggesting that what she's dealing with is serious, but the

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Speaker 3: acknowledgment that if this behavior were to continue and it

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Speaker 3: became a.

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Speaker 2: Perpetual habit, it could be serious.

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Speaker 3: It could become serious.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, I mean, what's really going on here with

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Speaker 2: a five year old who's doing this. It's pretty developmentally normal.

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Speaker 2: It's not unusual at all, and that's because of all

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Speaker 2: the things that we've talked about cognitive distortions. Like when

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Speaker 2: Nicky steps in with this wonderful growth mindset language, what

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Speaker 2: he does is he starts to discount the positive. He

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Speaker 2: starts to say, well, you're only being nice to me

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Speaker 2: because you're my mum, or good things all or nothing,

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Speaker 2: thinking good things never happen. It's always bad things that

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Speaker 2: happened to me.

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Speaker 3: Nobody loves me, Yeah, everybody hates me.

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Speaker 2: I know where you're going, Sony, you were going to go.

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Speaker 2: I knew you would do that. So these are cognitive

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Speaker 2: disortions discounting the positive, all or nothing thinking like you

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Speaker 2: should never say always or never because you're always wrong

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Speaker 2: and you're never right, no other way around. Oh it

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Speaker 2: doesn't you know what I mean though? And what also

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Speaker 2: happens though, another cognitive distortion is catastrophized, and you'll see

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Speaker 2: this with five year old you'll see this with fifteen

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Speaker 2: year olds as well, this idea that I can never

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Speaker 2: do anything right, and because I can never do anything right,

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Speaker 2: the future is going to be terrible. Nobody's ever going

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Speaker 2: to be my friend, and it's going to be the

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Speaker 2: worst thing ever. And then they get caught up in

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Speaker 2: mind reading. Mind reading is where they start to sort

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Speaker 2: of say, I know it's going to happen. I'm going

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Speaker 2: to go to the party and everyone's going to ignore me.

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Speaker 2: And these are all of these cognitive distortions. So let

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Speaker 2: me ask you, kylie. Common responses to this kind of

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Speaker 2: stinking thinking from our kids.

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Speaker 3: We usually tell them to stop talking about themselves like that.

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Speaker 3: We don't talk like that in our house, you know,

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Speaker 3: dismiss it, don't be silly.

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Speaker 2: So those are two of the most common responses, sometimes

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Speaker 2: well intentioned, sometimes not. But the first idea, Oh, come on,

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Speaker 2: you'll be okay, it's not that bad, everything's going to

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Speaker 2: be fine. Stop stressing about it, even with the best

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Speaker 2: of intentions, that is dismissal Right, we kind of.

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Speaker 3: Don't talk about yourself like that.

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Speaker 2: That's when we move into disapproval. Cut it out, don't

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Speaker 2: say things like that. Stop being so silly.

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Speaker 3: It's not all about you.

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Speaker 2: Oh that's hush. But sometimes we hear parents say that.

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Speaker 2: So these are ineffective responses. I think we need to

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Speaker 2: talk about why in just a second, and also focus

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Speaker 2: on what we can do to make things better. It's

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Speaker 2: the Happy Families Podcast.

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Speaker 4: Imagine a home where discipline got results without anyone having

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Speaker 4: to feel bad or in trouble. The do's and don'ts

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Speaker 4: of discipline as a webinar to help parents set limits

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Speaker 4: with love, compassion and humanity. Find it now at happy

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Speaker 4: families dot com dot au slash shop.

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Speaker 3: It's the Happy Families Podcast, the podcast for a time

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Speaker 3: poor parent who just wants answers now and today we

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Speaker 3: are delving into a really tricky conversation around Nicki and

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Speaker 3: her five year old, all of his stinking thinking thoughts.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, these cognitive distortions that can become so intrusive and

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Speaker 2: so dysfunctional for our children. Let's roll play for a second, Kylie.

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Speaker 2: Let's imagine that you're having a really rough day and

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Speaker 2: that's never happened, and I'm going to be dismissing. I'm

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Speaker 2: going to be kindly, gently dismissing. I'm actually going to

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Speaker 2: have the very best of intentions to make things better.

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Speaker 2: Let's just see how that feels. Let's hear it from you.

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Speaker 2: What's going wrong.

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Speaker 3: I'm such a bad mum. It doesn't matter what I do,

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Speaker 3: just the kids. The kids are just never happy. I

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Speaker 3: can't make them happy. I've made their lunches today and

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Speaker 3: they've come home complaining because they're hungry because what I

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Speaker 3: put in their lunch box didn't matter.

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Speaker 2: Honey, don't be so silly. You're a great mum. You

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Speaker 2: do a great job. You try so hard.

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Speaker 3: Are you kidding me?

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Speaker 2: Everything's going to be fine.

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Speaker 3: Honestly, I just there's no gratitude for anything that I do.

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Speaker 2: So when I say to you, everything's going to be fine,

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Speaker 2: you're doing a great job. How does that make you feel?

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Speaker 2: Do you feel like.

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Speaker 3: You don't understand what's going on.

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Speaker 2: Okay, all right, we're only role playing. Okay, all right,

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Speaker 2: I just want to make sure you know we're role playing. Okay,

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Speaker 2: let's go with a different kind of dismissal again, a

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Speaker 2: very common response. You're getting really upset, and I say,

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Speaker 2: don't be so silly. You know that's not true. You're

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Speaker 2: just being ridiculous.

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Speaker 3: Are you kidding?

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Speaker 2: We are role playing. The face right now makes me

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Speaker 2: a a little bit nervous.

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Speaker 3: But again, imagine you could have got a Grammy.

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Speaker 2: Imagine that. I think Grammys for music. Oh it's the Oscar. Yeah,

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Speaker 2: that's right.

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Speaker 3: Say how much TV I was.

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Speaker 2: So when we're talking about what's going on here, we

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Speaker 2: can do our very best to convince them that they're

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Speaker 2: wrong by dismissing their emotions, by saying, oh, kiddo, you're

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Speaker 2: not dumb, you're not silly, you're not a failure. But

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Speaker 2: would you know that's it. They don't believe you for

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Speaker 2: a second because.

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Speaker 3: You're only saying that because you're my mom.

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Speaker 2: I remember when I was catching a bus to the

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Speaker 2: beach one time, I wasn't wagging. I promised it was

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Speaker 2: a Saturday morning and I was off to the beach

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Speaker 2: for a surf. Of my friends jumped on the bus,

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Speaker 2: paid the bus drive the fair. As I walked to

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Speaker 2: the back of the bus, I was cutting my change

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Speaker 2: and realized he'd given me too much. So I went

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Speaker 2: back to him as he pulled out of the bus

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Speaker 2: stop and said, you gave me too much change. Gave

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Speaker 2: him the twenty cents extra that he'd given me. He

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Speaker 2: looked at me and said, well, that's really honest of you.

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Speaker 2: You must be a really honest kid. As soon as

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Speaker 2: he said it, I was like, oh, you don't know

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Speaker 2: the half of it. I've just done so many dishonest

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Speaker 2: things in my teenage years. It's unbelievable. What happens is

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Speaker 2: we discount the positive, and that's what our children are

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Speaker 2: doing in this case. When we try to say, don't

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Speaker 2: be so silly, you're great, you're amazing, they take it

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Speaker 2: as dismissal and they ignore the fact that we're saying

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Speaker 2: it because what they believe is far stronger than what

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Speaker 2: we believe. Totally, Okay, let's do the second one. Let

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Speaker 2: me do what some parents unfortunately do when their kids

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Speaker 2: say that they're done more stupid or not doing very well.

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Speaker 3: I'm such a stupid mom. I can't do this.

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Speaker 2: You're being hysterical, hysterical.

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Speaker 3: You don't even know the half of it. You want

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Speaker 3: to call me hysterical, I'll show you what hysterical is.

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Speaker 2: I'm using that word because Steve Price used it to

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Speaker 2: another panelist on the Project one night and it really

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Speaker 2: set things off. She got really mad. So when we

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Speaker 2: turn against them, when we become disapproving, it doesn't make

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Speaker 2: things any better either. There is a better way, and

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Speaker 2: the better way goes like this.

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Speaker 3: I'm such an idiot. It doesn't matter what I do.

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Speaker 3: I just can't get this stuff right. You know, even

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Speaker 3: when I've got to pick the kids up today and

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Speaker 3: I left Kylie.

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Speaker 2: You're having a terrible day. Hearing you speak like that,

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Speaker 2: it hurts my heart, and I know that it hurts

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Speaker 2: yours too. It's been a really really rough morning for you,

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Speaker 2: hasn't it.

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Speaker 3: You don't know the half of it.

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Speaker 2: Would you like to spend some time telling me about it?

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Speaker 3: Not? Really?

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Speaker 2: You feel that bad? Yeah, you feel like you'd just

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Speaker 2: rather be left alone. No, you'd like me to be

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Speaker 2: with you, But you feel horrible. Yeah, And as I've

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Speaker 2: shared that response with you. How does that make you

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Speaker 2: feel that you understand? Okay, you can step out of

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Speaker 2: the role play now, it's okay. You take this very seriously,

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Speaker 2: don't you this podcast? Yes, you do, and the role

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Speaker 2: play especially. So what I've really done here is I've validated.

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Speaker 2: I haven't said that you're right or wrong. I've just

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Speaker 2: told you what I can see. You're having a rough morning,

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Speaker 2: really really struggling.

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Speaker 3: So would it be a good time to maybe ask

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Speaker 3: me when there's been times that I've been successful. Would

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Speaker 3: that be helpful?

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Speaker 2: Not in the moment, because remember, high emotions, low intelligence.

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Speaker 2: Right now, I'm interested in just working with your emotions

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Speaker 2: and helping you to level out and become balanced so

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Speaker 2: that your intelligence comes back. That's what we're really trying

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Speaker 2: to do here. So the tips for any parent who's

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Speaker 2: listened to that and gone, hang on what happened there?

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Speaker 2: I want you to press the rewind button because I

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Speaker 2: think that I got it pretty well right. There's a

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Speaker 2: specific way that I've done what I've done, and it's

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Speaker 2: this number one. I focused not on Kylie's words, although

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Speaker 2: they did form part of my response, but I focused

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Speaker 2: on how she felt. My focus is on feelings not words. Secondly,

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Speaker 2: what I'm doing is I'm gently exploring those emotions by

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Speaker 2: saying it's not going well. You've had a really tough time.

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Speaker 2: Would you like to talk about it? Would you like

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Speaker 2: me to give you some space? Or would you like

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Speaker 2: you would have.

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Speaker 3: Got more brownie points? If you had to ask for

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Speaker 3: a cuddle?

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Speaker 2: Well we got there in the end. Would you like

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Speaker 2: me to stay close to you? Would you need it?

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Speaker 2: But I don't want to get too close too soon,

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Speaker 2: because if you're too angry and ask if you want

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Speaker 2: a couple right then who knows what might happen?

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Speaker 3: Are you talking from experience?

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Speaker 2: I'm just sharing general ideas from science, general ideas from science.

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Speaker 2: And then what I'm really working towards is empowering you

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Speaker 2: to tell me what the best way forward will be.

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Speaker 2: We're looking at problem focused coping, not emotion focused coping.

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Speaker 2: But that's only going to happen once we've got the

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Speaker 2: emotions level and stable. And we do that how by

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Speaker 2: focusing on the emotions. You're having a really tough time.

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Speaker 2: It's been a horrible morning, you don't want to be

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Speaker 2: near anyone right now, You're feeling like nobody's listening to you,

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Speaker 2: and everyone's ungrateful and just describing val that's when.

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Speaker 3: You book me in for a weekend away. Why myself?

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Speaker 2: Maybe, But remember this is not about you. This is

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Speaker 2: about a five year old, Nikki's five year old to

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Speaker 2: be specific. I feel like we've suddenly turned this into

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Speaker 2: a couple, So NICKI, I hope that that's helpful. Once

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Speaker 2: you focus on the emotion, if you've got a five

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Speaker 2: year old who's saying they hate themselves and they're no good.

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Speaker 3: We're going to focus on emotions.

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Speaker 2: That's the first step. And then we're going to we're

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Speaker 2: going to explore gently, slowly by saying what you're seeing

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Speaker 2: and asking if you're right.

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Speaker 3: And lastly, we're going to rEFInd ways to empower.

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Speaker 2: Gently say so, what do you think we can do here?

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Speaker 2: Would you like a hug? Would you like some space?

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Speaker 2: What's the best way for us to move forward?

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Speaker 3: Well, I feel like I've just had a therapy session.

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Speaker 2: I feel like I've just been through one. We really

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Speaker 2: hope that you've enjoyed the podcast, Nikki. We hope that

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Speaker 2: that's helpful. And for any other parent who's going through

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Speaker 2: these kinds of things, you might not do a role

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Speaker 2: play again, No, I don't think we will. I think

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Speaker 2: that was pretty rough going. Actually I need to go

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Speaker 2: and have my own therapy session to recover we. Like

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Speaker 2: I said, I hope that you got something out of

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Speaker 2: this and that it will help you with the challenges

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Speaker 2: that you face with your children. As always, we think

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Speaker 2: just and rule on from Bridge Media and Craig Bruce,

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Speaker 2: our executive producer, for putting the podcast together and doing

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Speaker 2: such a wonderful job with it. If you enjoy the podcast,

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Speaker 2: please leave those five star ratings and reviews. It's those

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Speaker 2: ratings and reviews that help other people find out about

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Speaker 2: the podcast and make their family happier. And if you'd

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Speaker 2: like more and fol about making your family happier, check

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Speaker 2: out our Happy Families memberships because a happy family doesn't

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Speaker 2: just happen. You can find all the information at happy

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Speaker 2: families dot com dot a u