Speaker 1: Podcast Unite our Voices. This podcast is brought to you
Speaker 1: by on Track Studio. Welcome to Yannier, the podcast that
Speaker 1: showcases First Nations stories and conversations to help us learn
Speaker 1: and unlearn Australia's history to work towards a better future.
Speaker 1: I'm your host, proud barber woman and founder of Black
Speaker 1: Wattel Coaching and Consulting, Caroline cow. We acknowledge the rundery
Speaker 1: people and elders where this podcast is taped, but we
Speaker 1: also acknowledge the lands that you are listening in from today.
Speaker 1: It always was and always will be unseated aboriginal and
Speaker 1: tourist Red Islander Land well as someone who has been
Speaker 1: on a huge healing journey and particularly I guess connecting
Speaker 1: or finding ways to connect back to my own body.
Speaker 1: I'm really excited about today's conversation with a really special
Speaker 1: sister who is leading the way in how we think
Speaker 1: about sex education, especially for young people and for our
Speaker 1: moms and for queer folks. And I'm just so excited
Speaker 1: to have you here today. Lauren French, sex educator and sexologist.
Speaker 1: Welcome to Yarning Up.
Speaker 2: Oh, thanks thanks for having me. It's so like deadly
Speaker 2: to be here and having a chat, and I I
Speaker 2: always love a good yarn.
Speaker 1: Yeah, thank you, Sis. I'm so grateful you here. I
Speaker 1: just I'm a huge fan of the work you're doing,
Speaker 1: because no one is really out here talking about what
Speaker 1: it means for our mob to feel, you know, sex confident,
Speaker 1: understand things like consent and just how we feel our
Speaker 1: most deadly self in our bodies. So I'm just so
Speaker 1: grateful for you to be here, Sis, So thank you.
Speaker 2: Of course I would not want to be anywhere else.
Speaker 1: Well, let's dive right in. I mean, you have a
Speaker 1: huge repertoire of things that you have done and passions
Speaker 1: and things you've sort of poured into this world around
Speaker 1: sex education and around supporting Aboriginal families and children to
Speaker 1: understand safety and empowerment and their rights. But I want
Speaker 1: to ask you just off the top, you know, how
Speaker 1: would you firstly describe yourself?
Speaker 2: Yeah, I always love a good intro. So I am.
Speaker 2: I am a proud codairy woman. I am a proud
Speaker 2: bisexual woman. I'm a proud sexologist, an educator, and change maker.
Speaker 2: My pronouns are she Her. I live in beautiful numb
Speaker 2: but I'm from Larakia country up in Darwin, that's where
Speaker 2: most of my mob live currently. And I am just
Speaker 2: someone who has always been comfortable talking about things that
Speaker 2: made other people uncomfortable. Like I was that kid in
Speaker 2: puberty class that was so excited to talk about like
Speaker 2: periods and bodies and sex, and I was like, Oh,
Speaker 2: this is so fascinating, and I never you know, it
Speaker 2: took me a really long time to understand why other
Speaker 2: people found it so difficult to talk about. So I'm
Speaker 2: just someone who's always been comfortable having these conversations, have
Speaker 2: in these yarns. And I really believe that, you know,
Speaker 2: everyone has a right to pleasure, has a right to
Speaker 2: you know, sexual pleasure, whether it's solo sexual pleasure, whether
Speaker 2: it's safe sexual pleasure with partners. I think we have
Speaker 2: a right to educate ourselves around our body and the
Speaker 2: kind of sexual experience we want. And I think it's like,
Speaker 2: in a way, deadly activism to actually embrace pleasure, because
Speaker 2: I think so many colonial structures and Western institutions see
Speaker 2: pleasure as you know, hedonistic or selfish or you know,
Speaker 2: it's put in all a real deficit shame. Oh, they
Speaker 2: love to put shame on us. And so I think
Speaker 2: there's something really, you know it is it is a stand.
Speaker 2: It is a you know, it's it's us taking a
Speaker 2: stand we say no. Pleasure is part of being human,
Speaker 2: let alone just being something that is a strength we
Speaker 2: can have.
Speaker 1: Oh my gosh, seriously, I could just I'm just taking
Speaker 1: all of that in because You've articulated some things that
Speaker 1: I have been deeply trying to navigate in my own
Speaker 1: life around thinking about where do I carry joy in
Speaker 1: my body as a black fella, and what does it
Speaker 1: look and feel like? It becomes this sort of spiritual
Speaker 1: and political act intertwined. So, oh my god, you've already
Speaker 1: got me really feeling all the feelsis But I want
Speaker 1: to rewind the track. So you're you were born and
Speaker 1: raised in Larachee Country, currently living at NAM and you
Speaker 1: you mentioned I guess that you've always felt comfortable around
Speaker 1: this notion of yet exploration of your body. I'm wondering
Speaker 1: if you could tell me a little bit more about that.
Speaker 1: What led to that comfortability? I mean, I'm sure you
Speaker 1: would have, no doubt done some soul searching to think
Speaker 1: about how that's come to be. But yeah, what's led
Speaker 1: to you to sort of this path as well about sexology,
Speaker 1: which it sounds why or that in twenty twenty four,
Speaker 1: it still does feel taboo. I don't know if that's
Speaker 1: the way that I have been raised where we didn't
Speaker 1: have that comfortability, but yeah, curious to know.
Speaker 2: I think most people, unfortunately, still have so much shame,
Speaker 2: you know, linked into sex and pleasure and bodies and
Speaker 2: sexuality and relationships that I think most people still find
Speaker 2: this really hard to talk about. I think as a
Speaker 2: young person, I was my curiosity just was way bigger
Speaker 2: than my shame. And I think I had you know,
Speaker 2: I have incredible family and everyone was really open. But
Speaker 2: also it's not like my family we talked about sex,
Speaker 2: relationships all that stuff all the time or anything like that.
Speaker 2: I knew my family was accepting, and you know, I
Speaker 2: had no fear of like having a coming out moment
Speaker 2: or anything like that. But I definitely, you know, it
Speaker 2: wasn't saying that it was discussed all the time, But
Speaker 2: I was just curious. I just thought it was interesting.
Speaker 2: I thought it was interesting how you know, some parts
Speaker 2: of relationships were okay to talk about and others weren't.
Speaker 2: And like, particularly as when you're a young person, you know,
Speaker 2: adults always like to, you know, project things on young people, like,
Speaker 2: you know, they ask or is that your boyfriend? Or
Speaker 2: is that you're you know, and they'll they'll kind of
Speaker 2: put on this idea of relationships it's always you know,
Speaker 2: super heteronormative and kind of falls into all of that.
Speaker 2: But I found it really fascinating that like that was
Speaker 2: totally fine to talk about, but like masturbation you couldn't
Speaker 2: really talk about. Or when I would talk to my
Speaker 2: friends about them, it would be this thing of like, oh,
Speaker 2: that's something that you know always do, but girls don't.
Speaker 2: There was all this gendered stuff around it, and so
Speaker 2: I think I was just really curious. I think I
Speaker 2: just thought it was interesting and fascinating. And then it
Speaker 2: wasn't Like it wasn't until I went to UNI and
Speaker 2: I studied psychology in my undergrad And it wasn't really
Speaker 2: until I was there meeting lots of other people, particularly
Speaker 2: people who would grow like who had grown up in
Speaker 2: rural regional spaces and who had really like no sex ed,
Speaker 2: no information, and I kind of became a little bit
Speaker 2: of the like sex advice person at my like UNI
Speaker 2: res accommodation.
Speaker 1: The dolly doctor, the live well.
Speaker 2: Yeah, exactly, kind of like the live version, but it
Speaker 2: was just because I would talk about it, and I
Speaker 2: had so many I had so many female friends at
Speaker 2: the time who would come up to me, and not
Speaker 2: even friends just like friends are friends who would be
Speaker 2: like Lauren, you know, like you know, I'm not liking sex,
Speaker 2: or I can't my partner can't give me an orgasm,
Speaker 2: like what am I meant to do? And my first
Speaker 2: question was always like, oh, well, how do you give
Speaker 2: yourself an organism? Like what does pleasure look like? Solo?
Speaker 2: And I would just be met with these blank faces
Speaker 2: and this just like, oh, what are you talking about?
Speaker 2: I don't explore my own pleasure? And I started to
Speaker 2: really realize that, oh, for so many people, your pleasure
Speaker 2: is linked to someone else's and it's all about that
Speaker 2: other person, the audience or who you're trying to, you know,
Speaker 2: like play to versus. Actually pleasure is something you have
Speaker 2: a right in your own body.
Speaker 1: Yeah. Wow, oh my god, it's so fascinating. I'm so
Speaker 1: grateful to hear that your curiosity in your household was
Speaker 1: met with, you know, expansive ways to explore that and provide,
Speaker 1: you know, some service to your schoolmates. But also just yeah,
Speaker 1: that you were able to grow up in an environment
Speaker 1: that fostered that acceptance of self and body and relationships
Speaker 1: in that way. You're right, it's fascinating. I think we
Speaker 1: do have this such socialization attached to our bodies, and
Speaker 1: especially for black women particularly. You know, you think about
Speaker 1: our bodies have been for the taking for so long,
Speaker 1: they've been enslaved, they've been you know, subjected to abuse.
Speaker 1: Think about how we view pornography and just other things
Speaker 1: about a black women's body. It's like the biggest act
Speaker 1: of reclamation is truly coming into your body. And it's
Speaker 1: a process, isn't it to really come back to yourself
Speaker 1: and to feel at home and safe and well in
Speaker 1: our bodies. I think it would be an interesting conversation.
Speaker 1: And I mean with that in mind, sis you know,
Speaker 1: like when you think about the work that you do,
Speaker 1: there's such a spectrum right from research and education to
Speaker 1: conversations around you know, consent, pornography. Then there's this sort
Speaker 1: of notion around intimacy, desirability connecting to our bodies relationships.
Speaker 1: I wonder for the lay people out there who aren't
Speaker 1: maybe familiar, I'm wondering if you could talk to me
Speaker 1: about what is a sexologist and what are some of
Speaker 1: the things that you do in your work in this
Speaker 1: space to help us sort of understand this further.
Speaker 2: Yeah, of course, now twenty twenty four, there are a
Speaker 2: lot more sexologists out there, but you know, it's still
Speaker 2: something most people have never heard of. My favorite way
Speaker 2: to have this conversation is with like an uber driver,
Speaker 2: because they'll, you know, when I'm working on conference or something,
Speaker 2: and then they're like, oh, what do you do? And
Speaker 2: I have to have that moment where like, do I
Speaker 2: want to say what I do? Because inevitably, when you
Speaker 2: say sexologist, someone here is sex worker and I kind
Speaker 2: of get that commenttion so like you're a sex worker,
Speaker 2: like you have like sex with people. I'm like, no,
Speaker 2: that's not what I do. And there is no shame
Speaker 2: towards any sex workers. We love sex workers. But this
Speaker 2: is a space where I go, no, so this is
Speaker 2: like therapy, This is like sex therapy. And then someone
Speaker 2: inevitably goes, oh, so you're like the mum from sex education,
Speaker 2: and I go yeah, but like, hopefully with a few
Speaker 2: more boundaries, I'd like to think, yeah, but I've worked
Speaker 2: really so I've worked in private practice as a sexologist,
Speaker 2: and so I kind of specialized of helping people who
Speaker 2: were dealing with sexual dysfunction and pain, particularly so things
Speaker 2: like vaginismus and volverdinia. I worked with a lot of
Speaker 2: couples that had issues around you know, sexual satisfaction desire.
Speaker 2: But sexologists can also work with people who have things
Speaker 2: like sexual trauma, issues with sexual confidence or sexual self esteem, pleasure,
Speaker 2: you know, even things like fertility. Sexologies are really broad
Speaker 2: space and so we can work clinically with people like
Speaker 2: one and Moe, like in a therapeutic practice like a therapist,
Speaker 2: or you can kind of have sexologists that do education.
Speaker 2: And so a big part of the work I do
Speaker 2: is I work with a nonprofit called Body Safety Australia
Speaker 2: and we do education, so in schools, in communities where
Speaker 2: we do things that are around you know, you know,
Speaker 2: comprehensive sex positive sexuality education as well as relationships education
Speaker 2: can sen you know, digital media literacy stuff particularly on
Speaker 2: relationships and sex, and so there's an element of education
Speaker 2: and even in a therapeutic space there's an element of education.
Speaker 2: But I really love to get you know, like my
Speaker 2: satisfaction I get with my work is being able to
Speaker 2: see change in like a one on one space, like
Speaker 2: with one person, and that's kind of where it happens
Speaker 2: in therapy. But I also, you know, I'm a big
Speaker 2: believer that education is how we make social change, and
Speaker 2: so you know, I'm hoping that, you know, with every generation,
Speaker 2: our sex ed gets better and our shame reduces. And
Speaker 2: to do that, I kind of need to go and
Speaker 2: talk to lots of people. So that's where that kind
Speaker 2: of bigger education comes in.
Speaker 1: Well, so fascinating to and that you know, it's such
Speaker 1: a broad conversation and I hear you about that sort
Speaker 1: of desire to be working on a one to one basis.
Speaker 1: You really see that transformative change. But the power of
Speaker 1: educating young people about this. You know, I'm going to
Speaker 1: reveal something. I'm a nineties kid, So I grew up
Speaker 1: in my teen years, was in the naughties, and I
Speaker 1: think back to the sex education that we got and
Speaker 1: as I mentioned before, with my family, we mum was
Speaker 1: removed and a missionary, so grew up quite Christian, and
Speaker 1: I think just also very just very timid and shy
Speaker 1: and certainly not empowered and you know, in their bodies
Speaker 1: or you know, or probably felt some sense of desire.
Speaker 1: I think that they were. You know, Mum was a
Speaker 1: single mom five kids. You know, your bodies is just
Speaker 1: for everyone, you know in that way, And so I
Speaker 1: think back to how undersophisticated our learnings were, and even
Speaker 1: at home, I remember we never got the sex talk.
Speaker 1: The only thing that Mum did was just gave us
Speaker 1: a box of tampons and sort of made us work
Speaker 1: it all out. So with that in mind, you know,
Speaker 1: what sort of stuff in your line of work and
Speaker 1: this notion of debunking the shame and the taboo, what
Speaker 1: sort of things are you sort of seeing in working
Speaker 1: with young people about this really important conversation, especially around
Speaker 1: the intersectionality between consent pornography and male violence as well,
Speaker 1: you know, which is a big conversation we're having as
Speaker 1: a nation right now. What sort of stuff are you
Speaker 1: seeing in your line of work?
Speaker 2: It's a huge conversation. And I think what I am
Speaker 2: seeing more and more is how much young people actually
Speaker 2: are so ahead of us, you know, the you know, twelve, thirteen, fourteen,
Speaker 2: fifteen year olds I'm working with us have so much
Speaker 2: more understanding of nuance around this stuff than I did
Speaker 2: when I was also growing up in that lovely nineties
Speaker 2: and naughties moment, and so young people are really good
Speaker 2: at articulating what they want. And you know, a huge
Speaker 2: thing I hear from them all the time is they
Speaker 2: don't just want to be told what's wrong and bad.
Speaker 2: And I think when we, you know, go into this,
Speaker 2: it's really easy for adults to focus on deficit and
Speaker 2: we do. And like this happens with MOB all the time,
Speaker 2: which is we want to focus on deficits. So when
Speaker 2: I I'm working with like, you know, a first nation's
Speaker 2: community around this work, someone will go, oh, you're making
Speaker 2: sure you're talking about you know, contraception and STIs and
Speaker 2: you know, making sure we're not all team parents. And
Speaker 2: I'm like, okay, well that's one way to think. That's
Speaker 2: a real deficit way. That's you thinking that our mob
Speaker 2: always has a problem, versus going in and actually saying, yeah,
Speaker 2: let's talk about what kind of relationships we do want.
Speaker 2: Where are the examples of really healthy, positive relationships that
Speaker 2: we get to see versus media that you know, maybe
Speaker 2: isn't showing us that representation. You know, what does it
Speaker 2: look like to have you know, a consensual sexual experience
Speaker 2: young people always tell me they understand consent because you know,
Speaker 2: they get it really drilled into them a lot now,
Speaker 2: which is great. But what they'll tell me is, but Lauren, like,
Speaker 2: how do I have fun sexual experience or like a
Speaker 2: pleasurable sexual ascience. How he's enjoying themselves, not just trying
Speaker 2: to focus on what we don't want to harm someone?
Speaker 2: And I think when with young people and always focus
Speaker 2: on is harm, we're not creating any opportunities for them
Speaker 2: to actually have a yarn about what's good and it means,
Speaker 2: like sex relationships, it's all done through a harm deficit
Speaker 2: lens versus actually, let's talk about strength.
Speaker 1: Wow, God, it's so fascinating. So I guess what I'm
Speaker 1: hearing is that, yeah, young people are sort of thirsty
Speaker 1: for this more sophisticated understanding and having the courage to
Speaker 1: have these conversations and wanting to learn about it. But
Speaker 1: it's fascinating to hear that, Yeah, for our mob, it's
Speaker 1: still being put as a deficit, and it's really important
Speaker 1: and deadly to hear that you are sort of having
Speaker 1: this conversation about viewing our bodies as strength considering all
Speaker 1: of what our bodies have endured and that our bodies
Speaker 1: should be celebrated as well. So wow, it's so fascinating,
Speaker 1: so fascinating.
Speaker 2: And I think for us as adults, like I think
Speaker 2: as well, like we have to do so much unlearning,
Speaker 2: you know, and unlearning those kind of narratives or stories
Speaker 2: that have been given to us about our bodies. You know,
Speaker 2: I think for so many of us, we talk, you know,
Speaker 2: we talk so much about walking between two worlds. But
Speaker 2: I you know, I think when we talk about pleasure
Speaker 2: and bodies, it goes beyond that to this idea that
Speaker 2: our bodies have been labeled by others and as things.
Speaker 2: You know, our body is a signal of a problem,
Speaker 2: or our body is showing either how well colonization was
Speaker 2: or how you know, or if it didn't work out
Speaker 2: very well. You know, our skin is commented on color,
Speaker 2: you know, you know, all of these sort of things
Speaker 2: versus even you know again, and it's all very deficit
Speaker 2: versus you know, when I look at my body and
Speaker 2: my you know, skin on my face, and you know,
Speaker 2: I see my family, I see my mob, I see
Speaker 2: my Aunie's I see you know, I get to see
Speaker 2: that in myself, and that's a strength but for a
Speaker 2: very long time when I was growing up, you know,
Speaker 2: and even still, I think identity is something we all
Speaker 2: have to you know, be on our own journey with.
Speaker 2: And you know, while you know my representation of my mob,
Speaker 2: you know, when you're young, I think you I think
Speaker 2: we're really hard on it. We're really hard on our
Speaker 2: body and ourself and our image and what it represents.
Speaker 2: And you know, there's always a thing.
Speaker 1: We want it to be. And I think this sort
Speaker 1: of really underscores the importance of having these conversations with
Speaker 1: young people so early, because you know, we've all experienced
Speaker 1: or will continue to experience, that feeling of not feeling
Speaker 1: desirable enough, loved enough, wanted enough, safe enough. You know,
Speaker 1: sometimes when we work with clients from a burnout and
Speaker 1: trauma perspective about even coming back to our bodies and
Speaker 1: how that is as a process, like I guess in
Speaker 1: and of itself. And so you know, we can see
Speaker 1: why this conversation is just so important and just so needed,
Speaker 1: and you know, working with both young people but also
Speaker 1: just all people around, like you say, debunking this shamee.
Speaker 1: You mentioned something before, and I want to pick it
Speaker 1: up around you know, a lot of this is it
Speaker 1: is around how you've grown up, which is, you know,
Speaker 1: through your family and being open and that except and
Speaker 1: you know that you've always had this curiosity and ability
Speaker 1: to maybe experience pleasure. I wonder if thinking about your
Speaker 1: experience and thinking about say, my experience, you know, does
Speaker 1: the way that you talk about sex change when it
Speaker 1: comes to dealing with mob or is that a really
Speaker 1: is that also a very deficit way to look at it?
Speaker 1: You know, I guess what I'm saying is, do you
Speaker 1: approach this topic from a really holistic perspective for mob,
Speaker 1: because yeah, we've also got a different sort of experience
Speaker 1: in the colonies.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I think, yeah, it's I completely understand what you're
Speaker 2: asking because in a way to go, oh, I have
Speaker 2: a completely different way of working with mob than I
Speaker 2: do with white fellas. It's like inherently othering. It's very
Speaker 2: othering because actually I work with people. But in saying that,
Speaker 2: I also don't just work with people. I work with
Speaker 2: people who have had you know, racism placed on them,
Speaker 2: or who again have lived through colonization and continue to
Speaker 2: live through colonization. And I work with people who've experienced
Speaker 2: violent and I think, how you approach any of those
Speaker 2: individuals looks really different. And to me, how how I
Speaker 2: work with MOB is about creating a safe space, like
Speaker 2: that's the most important thing. And for MOB, there is
Speaker 2: you know, there are particular ways we do that, and
Speaker 2: you know, it is about how you create a culturally
Speaker 2: safe space. And sometimes that is as simple as me,
Speaker 2: you know, even just acknowledging that I'm not going to
Speaker 2: judge someone when they tell me about their family and
Speaker 2: their family story, when they tell me about, you know,
Speaker 2: the trauma that their family has experienced, I can go, yeah,
Speaker 2: my family's experienced like, you know, the same trauma. And
Speaker 2: just even that knowing of I know what they're talking about,
Speaker 2: I'm not going to judge them or ask them to
Speaker 2: try and you know, carry the burden of explaining to
Speaker 2: me colonial violence, like even just me being to go, yeah, yeah,
Speaker 2: I know what that is, I know what that feels like.
Speaker 2: That's a lived experience and knowledge I have, and so
Speaker 2: that can help me create a bit of a safe
Speaker 2: space to have that, you know, this kind of a yarn.
Speaker 2: And then I think, as well, you know, making sure
Speaker 2: I'm not jumping into seeing things as a problem, because
Speaker 2: like I've grown up in the colony, like I've grown
Speaker 2: up with this idea. You know, teen pregnancy is bad
Speaker 2: and having all these kids is bad. And you know,
Speaker 2: we get taught really sex negative ideas and a lot
Speaker 2: of those are actually quite counted what can be completely
Speaker 2: culturally appropriate at times as well, And so you know,
Speaker 2: me reminding myself that, hey, like I, you know, I
Speaker 2: have biased because I've grown up in a colony that
Speaker 2: has bias and calling it out so that the person
Speaker 2: I'm yearning with goes, oh yeah, okay, Like like this
Speaker 2: person will get it. They'll understand or at least they're
Speaker 2: not going to judge me on how I talk or
Speaker 2: how I word something or maybe what my needs are.
Speaker 1: Yeah, gosh, it's like that. It's just that power of
Speaker 1: lived experience and validation and that knowing, isn't it Sometimes
Speaker 1: that that's why black therapists and counselors and psychologists and
Speaker 1: sexologists are just so important for us as part of
Speaker 1: this reclamation, to have that space where we feel that
Speaker 1: they know what we're experiencing. Yeah, will be back you
Speaker 1: mob right after this short break. I want to also
Speaker 1: just sort of circle back from something you mentioned before
Speaker 1: around you know, experiencing pleasure. And I recognize that this
Speaker 1: is not to give anyone any advice outside of their
Speaker 1: general mental health care plan or any other treatment that
Speaker 1: they're seeing. But you know, for anyone, is there any
Speaker 1: tips or suggestions or ways that we can cultivate more
Speaker 1: awareness of when we're experiencing joy and pleasure in our bodies?
Speaker 1: I know that, as I mentioned at the top of
Speaker 1: the show, a big part of my healing journey over
Speaker 1: the last fifteen twenty years has been to really learn
Speaker 1: ways to come back to my body. It was sort
Speaker 1: of the last step. I was such an able to
Speaker 1: intellectualize how I was feeling and to think about it,
Speaker 1: but not to experience it. And as somebody who's gone
Speaker 1: on this journey myself, I know that it's been such
Speaker 1: a practice to really accept my body for what it
Speaker 1: is the fact that it's this sacred beating reminder of
Speaker 1: my ancestors. As someone who lives with chronic illness, it's
Speaker 1: been this process of reacquainting back to my body. But yeah,
Speaker 1: I'm curious, you know, are there any ways that we
Speaker 1: can cultivate more Yeah, more appreciation for our bodies?
Speaker 2: Oh, definitely, I think I you know, I've been told
Speaker 2: before this might sound radical, but I don't think in
Speaker 2: this environment anyone's going to think it is. But like pleasure, sex, pleasure,
Speaker 2: you know, our bodies, there's a Western mentality that's very
Speaker 2: goal orientated. It's like there is success and failures, and
Speaker 2: there are goals, and like with pleasure, the goal is
Speaker 2: like an orgasm, for example, like to get super simple
Speaker 2: and so people go, oh, okay, then if I'm doing
Speaker 2: something with pleasure, it should end with an orgasm, and
Speaker 2: an orgasm is an end. And it's very linear. It's
Speaker 2: like point A to B and pleasure can become transactional.
Speaker 2: Now to me, that's a real Western lens. And for
Speaker 2: most us we are relational people. We are about building relationships,
Speaker 2: and I think people you know, for us, we need
Speaker 2: to think about what's the relationship you have withsure and
Speaker 2: your body, and where is the space to explore that relationship.
Speaker 2: You know, it's not just about hey, I need to
Speaker 2: meet this goal, I need to hit this mark, I
Speaker 2: need to tick this box. Because my word, that sounds
Speaker 2: like some corporate jug and that has no no, no
Speaker 2: space to be anywhere near anyone's body. So like, how
Speaker 2: do we actually go well, how to explore myself, what
Speaker 2: gives me pleasure, what gives me insane, toe curling, incredible
Speaker 2: sexual pleasure, and then what gives me like joyful pleasure,
Speaker 2: what gives my body comfort in pleasure? Like you know,
Speaker 2: it can be about exploring something erotic or sensual, or
Speaker 2: like take a minute when you change your sheets next
Speaker 2: time to explore how much pleasure it gives your body
Speaker 2: to like lie in them for the first time, and
Speaker 2: something as little as bad giving yourself permission to create,
Speaker 2: you know, to have a yarn about pleasure with yourself.
Speaker 1: Yeah, well I love that. What is the relationship you
Speaker 1: have with pleasure and where do you find space to
Speaker 1: cultivate it? And I love it. This is why I
Speaker 1: love having black butlers on this show Yarning Up to God,
Speaker 1: because it's like this notion of we've had to go
Speaker 1: to university learn a Western way and then completely decolonize
Speaker 1: it and re unravel and unthink it. Because this notion
Speaker 1: that pleasure there is no endpoint and it's nonlinear is
Speaker 1: of course it makes so much sense. But you're right,
Speaker 1: everything in a Western paradigm is about you know, quick
Speaker 1: efficient end binaries, and so yeah, it's really it's really
Speaker 1: it's a really fascinating conversation. You know, I guess with
Speaker 1: that in mind. You know, for me personally, it's been
Speaker 1: a journey to sort of differentiate certain feelings when it
Speaker 1: comes to this, you so sort of lump and when
Speaker 1: we talk about things like pleasure and intimacy, but also
Speaker 1: joy well like black joy. And as I mentioned, I've
Speaker 1: really been thinking about this question about when do I
Speaker 1: notice when I feel joy and pleasure in my body?
Speaker 1: And because I think over the last eleven months, with
Speaker 1: what's been happening over the world, you know, we have
Speaker 1: to be in a space where our joy and our
Speaker 1: fear and our sadness can all coexist. Because when we
Speaker 1: have these pleasurable moments or joyful moments, they give us
Speaker 1: they expand our capacity to be able to you know,
Speaker 1: get through things. So it's such an important part of
Speaker 1: our toolkit. You know, I wonder with that, you know,
Speaker 1: how do you get into your body? What person or
Speaker 1: practice or things sort of light you up? And you know,
Speaker 1: do you find yourself moving and dancing or just being
Speaker 1: aware of your body and taking up that space? You know,
Speaker 1: what are the things that yeah light you up?
Speaker 2: Yeah? No, I love this and I completely. Like before
Speaker 2: I talk about what lights me up. You know, I
Speaker 2: think the last eleven months as show us how much
Speaker 2: we need joy and pleasure because I think we are
Speaker 2: in such a globally connected time in the world, which
Speaker 2: is amazing because it means we are more educated, we
Speaker 2: are more involved, we are more intense with our advocacy
Speaker 2: and more of our incredible advocates. But I also think
Speaker 2: it means, because we're so connected, we feel guilt if
Speaker 2: we take a minute for pleasure or joy, Like there
Speaker 2: is such like we have such shame, you know, like
Speaker 2: we put shame on ourselves for going. Oh, I should
Speaker 2: be you know, if someone is suffering, I should be,
Speaker 2: you know, spending twenty four to seven trying to fix
Speaker 2: it when actually all that's going to do is burn
Speaker 2: you out and then you are not actually going to
Speaker 2: be helpful for anyone. And so I think people need
Speaker 2: to also reframe it as pleasure is part of being
Speaker 2: an advocate and part of having advocism, because you know,
Speaker 2: if you don't have that, then your time, you know,
Speaker 2: being able to show up is going to be really short.
Speaker 1: Yeah, gosh, oh my god, that's such an important yard.
Speaker 2: And also I'm not a mystic or like, you know,
Speaker 2: like I'm not you know, amazing at it as well,
Speaker 2: because I fall into traps of burning myself out with
Speaker 2: work or with activism or you know, with all these
Speaker 2: sort of things, and I have to remind myself to
Speaker 2: find joy and to me pleasure and joy is also
Speaker 2: about being playful, and so that's kind of where I
Speaker 2: found at the moment.
Speaker 3: So I I am my big issue is when I
Speaker 3: find something I like and that gives me joy and pleasure,
Speaker 3: I'm such a like, oh do I need to like
Speaker 3: make a new career out of this thing, or do
Speaker 3: I need to like do it to like a professional level.
Speaker 2: And I was a professional dancer for many years, and
Speaker 2: so dance gives me such joy. But I really struggle
Speaker 2: not to be like, oh, well, if I do it,
Speaker 2: I need to do it one hundred and ten percent,
Speaker 2: and you know, throw my whole entire being into something,
Speaker 2: which like, come on, we don't know what has time
Speaker 2: for all of the things I had to find like
Speaker 2: the other ways of giving myself joy and pleasure, And
Speaker 2: a big one for me at the moment actually is
Speaker 2: I've got my partner has gotten me kind of into
Speaker 2: swimming and I've never been like a swimmer. I grew
Speaker 2: up in Darwin. Water is danger not, it's not, it's
Speaker 2: not how that worked. But like going to the pool
Speaker 2: and I was, like, I thought doing laps and that
Speaker 2: sort of thing was going to be the most boring
Speaker 2: thing in the world. But I'm actually enjoying it. But
Speaker 2: what I love is that we do our like you know,
Speaker 2: we're adults, and you know, we're trying to take care
Speaker 2: of our body and our health and our well being,
Speaker 2: and so we do our swimming. But then we will
Speaker 2: play mermaids, and we will do handstands, and we will
Speaker 2: do like slip, I will do like silly ballet dancing
Speaker 2: in the pool, and we'll use the diving board. And
Speaker 2: like I think, as adults, there are so few opportunities
Speaker 2: for us to be playful that I'm really feeling the
Speaker 2: joy of that at the moment. And there's something so
Speaker 2: pleasurable about Actually, you know, I'm almost thirty and I'm
Speaker 2: doing handstands and being a mermaid and like a turtle
Speaker 2: in the water. Yeah, giving myself to freedom and permission
Speaker 2: to just like do whatever feels great.
Speaker 1: Yes, yes, slay to that. Oh my god, The freedom
Speaker 1: to be so liberated in your own body that you can, yeah,
Speaker 1: do some somersaults and cartwheels and just to be so free,
Speaker 1: you know, and even like you know, just watching someone
Speaker 1: like combust in a belly laughter and let loose and
Speaker 1: has had that moment of just abyss into like complete
Speaker 1: freedom and letting go. I think it's what it is.
Speaker 1: It's like that letting go of something. And you know,
Speaker 1: there's a few things you said. Their first thing is,
Speaker 1: you know, thank you for sharing ways that you experience
Speaker 1: joy in your body and you know, through dancing and swimming,
Speaker 1: and I think also just sharing your honesty about that
Speaker 1: whole thing which many of us experience, which is we
Speaker 1: all have a proximity to, you know, the colonial mindset.
Speaker 1: We're all unlearning. So thank you for reminding us of that,
Speaker 1: because this idea that we have to be good at
Speaker 1: things is another you know, very colonial white supremacy trait,
Speaker 1: but just to do things for pure enjoyment and awe
Speaker 1: and wonder. I think the other thing you mentioned before,
Speaker 1: which I think is such a big important conversation, is
Speaker 1: around this notion of black fellows having guilt when we
Speaker 1: experience joy and pleasure. And I fully I think there's
Speaker 1: a whole like research slash, you know, resources that should
Speaker 1: be provided in thinking about this, because you're right, you know,
Speaker 1: we live in it in such sometimes dysfunction of such
Speaker 1: sadness and sorrow and sorry business and activism and fight
Speaker 1: or flight, that when we do experience joy, we do
Speaker 1: feel that that pang of guilts and should I be
Speaker 1: sharing it or you know, I'd be celebrating this. It's
Speaker 1: so interesting because it's so counter to how we view
Speaker 1: a lot of things, where such circle holistic people, but
Speaker 1: we all fall into these binary colonial traps in our
Speaker 1: own minds to say that we have to be this
Speaker 1: or that and we can't have a space in our
Speaker 1: lives where these things coexist. You know, even in the
Speaker 1: most darkest moments of my grief and loss, I've had
Speaker 1: these moments where I've like wanted to be laughing and silly,
Speaker 1: and I've felt such a guilty even to feel another emotion.
Speaker 1: And so I think it's just a really important conversation
Speaker 1: to have around our emotions can coexist and where all
Speaker 1: of these things can sit in the same bucket at
Speaker 1: the same day, and that we the ultimate act and
Speaker 1: the biggest fuck you to the colony is a happy
Speaker 1: black fellow, you know, and you're yeah, you're just smiling
Speaker 1: up walking down the street. Everyone's going to be very
Speaker 1: unsettled about your legitimacy as a black fellow, and you've
Speaker 1: been happy as so. You know, I think it's so
Speaker 1: important yard to have.
Speaker 2: I think, yeah, and I yeah, exactly. I think there's
Speaker 2: such power in us, you know, carving out space for
Speaker 2: ourselves to because we talk about being you know, like
Speaker 2: loud and proud a lot. We talk about, you know,
Speaker 2: moving away from that like angry black woman narrative, but
Speaker 2: I think we are being you know, angry as black women.
Speaker 2: It's like, yeah, I can be just as loud when
Speaker 2: I'm angry as when I am joyful. And you know,
Speaker 2: our body is really good at, you know, allowing space
Speaker 2: for emotions to come in and out.
Speaker 1: Yeah, that's such an important point.
Speaker 2: We judge ourselves really harshly on how our body experiences
Speaker 2: things like whether that's sexual pleasure, whether it's arousal, whether
Speaker 2: it's desire, as well as when we are sad or happy,
Speaker 2: or frustrated or angry or you know, in grief.
Speaker 1: Yeah, just such a reminder that all of our emotions
Speaker 1: are so contrived of how they should look and feel,
Speaker 1: and that's why, you know, just to feel them in
Speaker 1: your authentic way. And I notice this sort of brings
Speaker 1: an important question to mine around I guess the connection
Speaker 1: between sexual intimacy and connected being connected to our body
Speaker 1: and our overall emotional health and wellbeing. You know, how
Speaker 1: important do you think it is for us to feel
Speaker 1: intimate and desired and wanted and all of those things?
Speaker 1: I know, for me personally, my love language is touch
Speaker 1: and words of affirmation a bit. With my partner for
Speaker 1: thirteen years. He's a gifts and acts guy, so we've
Speaker 1: had to learn to communicate. But I need affection to survive.
Speaker 1: It's like I'm like a catteror dog or something. I
Speaker 1: just need to feel connected on this really spiritual, cosmic level.
Speaker 1: I'm just yeah, And so I wonder, you know, how
Speaker 1: important is this conversation around intimacy and desirability for our
Speaker 1: overall wellbeing?
Speaker 2: Really great point, and I think I want to like
Speaker 2: go open up and come specific because I think overall
Speaker 2: this can be hugely important for so many people. I
Speaker 2: acknowledge that there are so many people who are you know,
Speaker 2: asexual or a romantic and who you know, sex and
Speaker 2: that kind of physical intancy is not an important part
Speaker 2: of their lives. And like that that's also completely valid.
Speaker 2: And I think, you know, I don't want anyone to
Speaker 2: feel like we need to that someone needs to be
Speaker 2: hyper sexual or like you know, like performative in their
Speaker 2: erotic self in a way that doesn't feel authentic from
Speaker 2: a general perspective. But I think a lot of people,
Speaker 2: you know, we've created or not even we have been
Speaker 2: given a narrative that sex is you know, we either
Speaker 2: have to be like shameful about it or we should
Speaker 2: be the best lovers in the world, and like we
Speaker 2: should know exactly what we're doing, but we should never
Speaker 2: have to talk about it or ask questions and it
Speaker 2: should come natural and if it doesn't come natural, then
Speaker 2: something's wrong. And there's like so many layers to it.
Speaker 2: And so I think, you know, how we create that
Speaker 2: like space for ourselves is really important because you know,
Speaker 2: it is vital just as much as I you know,
Speaker 2: I'm a big believer when we talk if you look
Speaker 2: into like you know, World Health Organization or these sort
Speaker 2: of spaces when they talk about sexual health. We have
Speaker 2: moved so far past the idea that sexual health is
Speaker 2: just the absence of disease or the absence problem, like
Speaker 2: we should be striving for so much more. We should
Speaker 2: be striving for sex that is, you know, intimate and
Speaker 2: satisfying and gives us what we need because some people,
Speaker 2: you know, and everyone will have different needs around that.
Speaker 2: But I don't think a lot of people ever ask
Speaker 2: themselves what that need is, or give themselves the time
Speaker 2: to actually ask themselves, you know, what does my body
Speaker 2: want do? What does my mind erotically want? What do
Speaker 2: I want with my partner? Or what do I want
Speaker 2: in my casual relationships? What do I want? You know,
Speaker 2: when I'm exploring my own body? And have I ever
Speaker 2: actually asked myself that? Because that's a really vulnerable thing
Speaker 2: to ask yourself, because you might open yourself up to
Speaker 2: realizing that what you have currently is not enough or
Speaker 2: it's not meeting your need, or you might actually just
Speaker 2: have a blank canvas and your body is telling you
Speaker 2: I don't know what I need. Yeah, And I think
Speaker 2: that's really scary when we ask ourselves what do we
Speaker 2: need and our body has no answer. But to me,
Speaker 2: all that means is, oh, okay, we haven't experienced it yet.
Speaker 2: So we need to explore, We need to create space
Speaker 2: to try things, and you know, in safe ways, try
Speaker 2: things so that our body can work out what it wants.
Speaker 1: Gosh, oh, sis, I could seriously listen to you all day.
Speaker 1: But you know what a beautiful reminder that, yeah, there
Speaker 1: is no one size fits all about what it means
Speaker 1: to feel connected to ourselves. And I think this is
Speaker 1: why this is important. This is such a conversation around
Speaker 1: relationality and the relationships we have with ourselves and others.
Speaker 1: But again, what a strong, beautiful reminder and circling back
Speaker 1: to earlier question around you know, if you are you know,
Speaker 1: not feeling as connected or at home, maybe those questions
Speaker 1: you might like to ask yourself, you know, what is
Speaker 1: my relationship with pleasure? When do I experience it? And
Speaker 1: you know, where do I create some more space to
Speaker 1: tune in for what pleasure looks and feels like for
Speaker 1: me because it is so unique and look so different
Speaker 1: for everyone. And yeah, like you know, giving yourself permission
Speaker 1: to like go on some self discovery as well, and
Speaker 1: to have the courage to do so, I think as well,
Speaker 1: because like you say, we're all learning about what it
Speaker 1: means to feel strong and confident and safe and empowered
Speaker 1: in our bodies.
Speaker 2: And I just want to call out for people because
Speaker 2: I think we, particularly women like you know, women across
Speaker 2: the board, you know, Black women, particularly because we are
Speaker 2: such like we often find ourselves in posions where we
Speaker 2: are caring for others, where we are looking after others.
Speaker 2: And you know, we're getting so much better at talking
Speaker 2: about you know, quote unquote self care, which I do
Speaker 2: find self care a very like Western idea anyway, but
Speaker 2: like we are getting much better at talking about you know,
Speaker 2: filling our own cups and you know, being aware of
Speaker 2: what burnout looks like and doing that. But when things
Speaker 2: get busy, when we get stressed, when you know, when
Speaker 2: things are hectic, often pleasure is the first thing that
Speaker 2: gets thrown out because we assume we don't have time
Speaker 2: for it or space for it, or you know, what's
Speaker 2: the point if I'm not ticking it off the box
Speaker 2: kind of thing, and in doing that as pleasure being
Speaker 2: the first thing that gets removed, Pleasure is the thing
Speaker 2: that's going to keep us going.
Speaker 1: Yeah, one hundred percent. It is the thing that keeps
Speaker 1: us so expansive and open to new new ideas and newness.
Speaker 1: I think. I think that's a really really great point.
Speaker 1: And you know, with that in mind, I don't know
Speaker 1: what your thoughts are on this, but you know, for
Speaker 1: anyone who might be feeling that pleasure feels too strong
Speaker 1: of a word, or we might not be there. You know,
Speaker 1: maybe it's about thinking about when do I experience that
Speaker 1: sense of fun and that lightness or like we were
Speaker 1: talking about before, that sort of sense of going back
Speaker 1: to our childlike states and just that fun. You know,
Speaker 1: I've been thinking about this a lot. When I'm in
Speaker 1: my joy, I just feel lighter, I feel more at ease,
Speaker 1: I feel a warmth in my body. I feel I'm
Speaker 1: more present, I feel I'm more curious. I feel I'm
Speaker 1: more engaged. You know. It sort of can run parallel
Speaker 1: to so many other ways that I show up within
Speaker 1: myself and with my people and with my relationships, and
Speaker 1: so yeah, I've really had to prioritize it, like and
Speaker 1: also practice it, practice joy in fun because it does
Speaker 1: feel you do feel a bit shame or a bit like,
Speaker 1: I don't know, like you've got to be good at
Speaker 1: it or that, you know, what's the point I need
Speaker 1: to be doing things? But you know, just sort of
Speaker 1: finding ways to practice just fun is important.
Speaker 2: So we have such a fear of failure, and like
Speaker 2: this failure word is so intense and it is such
Speaker 2: an idea of the colony when it's like it's not
Speaker 2: about pass or fail succeed and this like it's not binary,
Speaker 2: Like you're doing something, you're connecting with something, whether it's yourself,
Speaker 2: whether it's country, whether it's mob, whether it's you know,
Speaker 2: just a fun feeling. And I think that that fear
Speaker 2: of failure is what leads us to that need to
Speaker 2: be perfect. And it's like I had this the other
Speaker 2: day when I was at my gathering space and having
Speaker 2: a yarn and you know, when of my uncles started
Speaker 2: painting and I hadn't painted in I don't even know
Speaker 2: how long, and I was like, you know what, I'm
Speaker 2: just I'm just gonna I'm just gonna do some and
Speaker 2: I'm not I'm going to really try. And it was hard,
Speaker 2: I want to call out. It was really hard to
Speaker 2: not go, Okay, well, I'm painting something for a purpose
Speaker 2: or it needs to mean a certain thing, or I
Speaker 2: need to go in with an intention. I literally just
Speaker 2: picked up a you know, astick and started painting and
Speaker 2: just kind of let it be whatever it was. And
Speaker 2: then what you know, since then, I've also tried to
Speaker 2: not let my brain spiral into that. Well, now, if
Speaker 2: you're going to do painting, you know, you've got to
Speaker 2: do it this way and this is the right way,
Speaker 2: and you've got to make a habit and you've got
Speaker 2: to create a practice. And it's like, actually, what I
Speaker 2: wanted in that moment paint because it was making me
Speaker 2: feel connected to mob and like that feeling was what
Speaker 2: was giving me joy. And of course I can paint again,
Speaker 2: but like, I don't need to feel like I need
Speaker 2: to make it look the way. You know, we feel
Speaker 2: like we sometimes need to show up in white spaces.
Speaker 2: I don't need to prove to anyone that I'm doing
Speaker 2: something to better myself or to better something. I'm doing
Speaker 2: it because I want to do it.
Speaker 1: And you're so right. Not everything has to be performance
Speaker 1: or for the gays. Some things are sacred just for ourselves,
Speaker 1: And you know, I think that's it's a sacred act,
Speaker 1: you know, just to to choose the things that you
Speaker 1: that you want to do without having to Yeah, like
Speaker 1: you say, over complicated or being seven layers deep, yeah,
Speaker 1: I think it's just for me. Taking away from this
Speaker 1: is just a reminder to give ourselves permission to, yeah,
Speaker 1: check in with what our needs and wants and desires are,
Speaker 1: and that our that we're worthy of the time and
Speaker 1: attention to ask ourselves what do we want? You know,
Speaker 1: when do we feel connected? And just that we all
Speaker 1: have permission to, yeah, experience all of all of life
Speaker 1: and all of the emotions including joy and pleasure and desire.
Speaker 1: So yeah, certainly given me a lot to think about sis.
Speaker 1: I mean, where can people I know that you're you,
Speaker 1: I know that you're heading up education a Body Safety Victoria,
Speaker 1: and I know you've just done or you are doing
Speaker 1: your churchhill, But yeah, where can people come and connect
Speaker 1: to some of the work you're doing. Are you able
Speaker 1: to share some of the things that you've got in
Speaker 1: the pipeline for anyone who, like me, is just so
Speaker 1: interested in learning more from you?
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, of course. Well look I'm always up for
Speaker 2: a yana a chat, so everyone please feel free to
Speaker 2: reach out. Yet, so for education, I'm the head of
Speaker 2: education with Body Safety Australia. You can reach me on
Speaker 2: like Instagram is probably one of the easiest ways to
Speaker 2: reach out to me. So I'm Lauren French sexologist on Instagram.
Speaker 2: I'm not seeing clients in private practice at the moment
Speaker 2: because yes, as you said, I've just returned from completing
Speaker 2: the travel portion of my Churchill fellowship. My fellowship was
Speaker 2: specifically looking at indigenous elder guided practice around community healing
Speaker 2: and repair, specifically after youth sexual violence. So I've been
Speaker 2: like deep diving on like indigenous ways of learning and
Speaker 2: like doing research that is actually for mob and not
Speaker 2: just you know, for an academic lens in a western way.
Speaker 2: And so I have a report on my fellowship coming
Speaker 2: out soon. Don't ask me the actual date. I do
Speaker 2: not know yet, but like once that is out there,
Speaker 2: we'll be able to read that. And so yeah, so
Speaker 2: if people want to have a yarm with me about
Speaker 2: the work, the education work, go to Body Safety Australia.
Speaker 2: If you want to have a yarm with me about
Speaker 2: being a sexologist or that work that I do, Instagram
Speaker 2: probably the best place. And basically just everyone look out
Speaker 2: for my report because I'd really love it if someone
Speaker 2: other than me and my mum read it, so like
Speaker 2: that would be really great.
Speaker 1: At Wow Wow, we will be sure to put all
Speaker 1: of your details in our show notes about where to
Speaker 1: connect to Body Safety Australia and over Instagram. But I
Speaker 1: just want to say thank you so so much. You've
Speaker 1: really given me a lot to think about. You know,
Speaker 1: it's been really fascinating to learn about. Yeah, where you
Speaker 1: started with your family as a curious young person black
Speaker 1: fellow in Northern Territory and where you've gone on around
Speaker 1: the world to have these conversations across you know, the globe.
Speaker 1: So you know, just want to say thank you for
Speaker 1: this hard yaka that you're doing, and thanks for giving
Speaker 1: me a lot to think about as well on my
Speaker 1: journey into coming back and reclaiming my body and thinking
Speaker 1: about pleasure and pleasure activism.
Speaker 2: Love that for you know, thank you so much for
Speaker 2: having me and I hope this will be helpful for
Speaker 2: everyone listening, and like for anyone listening, you know, don't
Speaker 2: feel like you need to take a huge step around
Speaker 2: this space either, like little things, find a little thing
Speaker 2: that brings you pleasure and joy and yeah, like you know,
Speaker 2: just I think if we can all give ourselves permission
Speaker 2: to prioritize pleasure for it to actually be a thing,
Speaker 2: we're allowed to prioritize in our day, or our week,
Speaker 2: or our month or our year. Then I think that's
Speaker 2: a hugely, you know, powerful piece of activism.
Speaker 1: I'm just gonna leave it on that note because that
Speaker 1: is such an important, beautiful thing to sort of remind
Speaker 1: us as we as we close out the show. Thank
Speaker 1: you again, my cis. I really appreciate your time today.
Speaker 2: Thanks Everyoneesday Deadly, Thank you so much for listening you mob.
Speaker 1: If you are vibing this season of yearning up, then
Speaker 1: please head over to Apple, Spotify, or wherever you get
Speaker 1: your podcasts from to show us love, rate, and review. Alternatively,
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Speaker 1: by visiting www. Dot carolinecow dot com dot ahu