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Speaker 1: My name is Lily Maddon and I'm a proud Arunda

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Speaker 1: Bunjelung Kalgotin woman from Gadigl country. The Daily oz acknowledges

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Speaker 1: that this podcast is recorded on the lands of the

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Speaker 1: Gadighl people and pays respect to all Aboriginal and Torres

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Speaker 1: Strait Island and nations. We pay our respects to the

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Speaker 1: first peoples of these countries, both past and present.

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Speaker 2: Good morning and welcome to the Daily os. It is Wednesday,

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Speaker 2: the fifteenth of March. I'm Sam, I'm Zarah. The BBC

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Speaker 2: has reinstated a high profile sports presenter, Gary Lineker, who

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Speaker 2: was suspended for tweeting a political opinion.

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Speaker 3: What an extraordinary few days.

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Speaker 1: The issue of impartiality is still at the heart of

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Speaker 1: this dispute.

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Speaker 4: Should TV personalities like Gary Linica be allowed to share

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Speaker 4: their opinions on political issues?

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Speaker 3: An openly wilfully provocative tweet by Gary Lineker?

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Speaker 2: So what did Linika say to cause such a stir

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Speaker 2: and what does this all say about freedoma's speech at

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Speaker 2: government funded broadcasters TDA Jono. Tom Crowley will be joining

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Speaker 2: us in the deep dive. But first, Sarah, what is

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Speaker 2: making headlines?

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Speaker 4: Opposition leader Peter Dudden has said the Coalition will back

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Speaker 4: Australia's Orchest military deal come hell or high water. This

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Speaker 4: comes after PM Anthony Albanesi, along with UK Prime Minister

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Speaker 4: Rishi Sunak and US President Joe Biden, announced Australia's multi

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Speaker 4: billion dollar acquisition of nuclear powered submarines yesterday.

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Speaker 2: China will begin welcoming foreign tourists this week for the

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Speaker 2: first time since the outbreak of the COVID pandemic back

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Speaker 2: in twenty twenty. The announcement comes into effects today and

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Speaker 2: comes after the Chinese government relaxed its international travel restrictions

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Speaker 2: back in January and that allowed non Chinese travelers to

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Speaker 2: visit family or for business or education.

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Speaker 4: The Naplan Assessment program will begin in Australian schools from today.

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Speaker 4: They'll run for the next nine school days, beginning with

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Speaker 4: writing tests before assessments on reading, language and numerously skills.

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Speaker 4: The results will be used to determine where Ozzie students

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Speaker 4: need more support.

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Speaker 2: And today's good news, US skier MICHAELA. Schiffrin has become

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Speaker 2: the most successful alpine skier of all time after claiming

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Speaker 2: her eighty seventh career World Cup win earlier this week,

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Speaker 2: Chiffrin became the most successful female alpine skier in January

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Speaker 2: with her eighty fourth victory. Jesus been a big year

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Speaker 2: for her, but eclipsed the long standing record of Swedish

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Speaker 2: skier Ingemar Stenmark this week while at a competition in Sweden. Tom,

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Speaker 2: welcome back to the podcast.

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Speaker 3: Thanks for having me, Sam, pleasure to be here. Excited

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Speaker 3: to chat to you today about a story I think

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Speaker 3: this is a fascinating story out of the UK, Sam,

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Speaker 3: The suspension with a brief suspension of sports presenter Gary

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Speaker 3: Lineker from the BBC. They stood in down a few

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Speaker 3: days ago and then they announced he would return to

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Speaker 3: air just days after he stood side. All of us

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Speaker 3: was about a tweet that he sent criticizing the UK

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Speaker 3: government's asylum seeker policy. So a fair bit for us

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Speaker 3: to unpack there, Sam.

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Speaker 2: Before we get into the BBC events, why don't we

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Speaker 2: start with trying to understand the actual UK government asylum

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Speaker 2: seeker policy at the heart of.

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Speaker 3: All of this. Absolutely so in the UK, much like Australia,

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Speaker 3: boat arrivals full of asylum seekers are really hot button

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Speaker 3: political issue. A large number of migrants arrived by boat

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Speaker 3: in the last year in the UK, so about forty

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Speaker 3: five thousand, and the UK's Conservative government has really, over

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Speaker 3: the last few years embarked on a series of crackdowns

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Speaker 3: against those asylum seekers kind of, I guess there's two

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Speaker 3: sides to the issue. They talk about wanting to stop

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Speaker 3: drownings at sea. They also talk about the sort of

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Speaker 3: the unfairness of people I suppose jumping the que and

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Speaker 3: coming by boat, and so for both of those reasons

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Speaker 3: they've been proposing crackdowns. This is the latest one. It

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Speaker 3: would give the Home Secretary, so that's a similar role

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Speaker 3: to our Home Affairs Minister basically stronger powers to detain

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Speaker 3: people and remove them from the UK, those who arrive

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Speaker 3: on boats essentially without hearing their asylum claims. So last

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Speaker 3: year the government announced a deal that sort of still

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Speaker 3: hasn't quite happened yet, but that they're working through to

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Speaker 3: send some people to Rwanda. This latest proposal is really

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Speaker 3: about giving the minister some extra powers are supposed to

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Speaker 3: follow through on that, and it has some additional impositions

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Speaker 3: there so the people who get removed from the country

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Speaker 3: in this circumstance will be prevented from ever returning to

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Speaker 3: the UK. They'll also be denied a number of protections

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Speaker 3: that exist within the UK for asylum seekers. So pretty

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Speaker 3: serious crackdown there. He's a little bit of Home Secretary

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Speaker 3: sel A Bravaman promoting the policy in a video post online.

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Speaker 5: Stopping the boats is one of the five promises the

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Speaker 5: Prime Minister has made to the British people, and it's

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Speaker 5: my top priority. This bill will mean that if you

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Speaker 5: come here illegally, you will not be able to stay.

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Speaker 5: You will be detained and removed to your home country

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Speaker 5: if safe, or a safe third country like Rwanda.

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Speaker 2: When you say things like stop the boats and you

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Speaker 2: won't be allowed to stay, I can't help but think

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Speaker 2: about Australia's Operations Sovereign Borders immigration policy. Has that direct

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Speaker 2: comparison been made.

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Speaker 3: It's been made by a lot of people. In fact,

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Speaker 3: some of the UK government's communications consultants are Australians who

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Speaker 3: worked on a similar set of policies that have been

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Speaker 3: enacted in Australia. For comparison, here is a little clip

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Speaker 3: of Australia's ads for Operations Sovereign Borders.

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Speaker 4: The message is simple, if you come to Australia illegally

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Speaker 4: by boat, there is no way you will ever make

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Speaker 4: Australia home.

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Speaker 3: And I think it's fair to say in general that

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Speaker 3: these issues are, yeah, I guess contentious in a very

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Speaker 3: uncannily similar way in the UK to what they have

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Speaker 3: been in Australia. So for people who are familiar with

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Speaker 3: Australia's refugee policies, that should give you a good point

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Speaker 3: of reference to understand how this is kind of landed

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Speaker 3: in UK politics. It's a move that's been condemned by

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Speaker 3: refugee advocacy groups, by a number of international agencies, including

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Speaker 3: the UN High Commission for Refugees. There were protests in

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Speaker 3: Parliament Square last week and the bill has been debated

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Speaker 3: extensively in Parliament. It's certainly a very controversial one and

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Speaker 3: has been criticized by BBC Sports presenter Gary Lineker as well.

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Speaker 2: Well, let's talk about Gary Lininker, because he's obviously been

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Speaker 2: pulled into this contentious policy by taking to Twitter to

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Speaker 2: explain his point of view. Can you tell me a

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Speaker 2: little bit about who he.

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Speaker 3: Is so, Gary Lineker, He's an English sporting legend. Really.

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Speaker 3: I think he probably has an argument to be one

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Speaker 3: of the greatest English footballers of all time. These days.

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Speaker 3: He's a sports presenter for the BBC. He presents a

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Speaker 3: highlights show called Match of the Day. That's kind of

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Speaker 3: his main contribution there on the BBC, and he's often

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Speaker 3: used his status as a public figure to be outspoken

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Speaker 3: on politics, but landed in sort of unusually hot water

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Speaker 3: over the last week because of these comments about the

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Speaker 3: asylum seeker policy, calling it an immeasurably cruel policy directed

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Speaker 3: at the most vulnerable people in language that is not

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Speaker 3: dissimilar to that used by Germany in the thirties of course,

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Speaker 3: a reference to Nazi Germany there. And the BBC responded

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Speaker 3: pretty swiftly to this, saying that Linker's comments were a

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Speaker 3: breach of their guidelines and advising him to keep away

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Speaker 3: from taking sides on party political issues or political controversies.

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Speaker 3: And the reason that that's particularly significant here is because

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Speaker 3: Linker works for the BBC, which is a public broadcaster.

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Speaker 3: So I'll come back, we'll speak about that a little

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Speaker 3: bit more later, but just at the moment, the important

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Speaker 3: context is that the BBC, like our ABC, is funded

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Speaker 3: by taxpayers and an important part of its purpose is

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Speaker 3: to be in its political coverage completely independent, and that's

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Speaker 3: where this sensitivity came from the BBC about link Or

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Speaker 3: a high profile presenter, even though he was a sports presenter.

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Speaker 3: Making a political comment was also something that the government criticized,

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Speaker 3: so Home secretaries well of Bravaman, who we heard from earlier,

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Speaker 3: she criticized Link's comments in an interview on ITV.

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Speaker 6: I think equating our measures, which are lawful, necessary and

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Speaker 6: fundamentally compassionate to nineteen thirties Germany is irresponsible and I

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Speaker 6: disagree with that characterization.

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Speaker 3: And so Linker was then stood down from Match of

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Speaker 3: the Day and the BBC said that he would remain

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Speaker 3: off air until they agreed on a clear position on

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Speaker 3: the use of his social media.

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Speaker 2: And then as soon as Linka got stood down, there

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Speaker 2: was some pretty significant backlash right.

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Speaker 3: The backlash was swift. Sam so all of his co

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Speaker 3: hosts on Match of the Day said that in solidarity

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Speaker 3: they were not going to appear on the show either.

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Speaker 3: A number of other BBC sports presenters said the same,

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Speaker 3: and then the football players had made it known that

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Speaker 3: a number of them would say no to interviews, and

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Speaker 3: so the show was unable to conduct any player interviews.

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Speaker 3: So you know, really very quickly there was a big

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Speaker 3: show of solidarity I suppose within the BBC kind of

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Speaker 3: football ecosystem for Lineker and publicly, you know, a lot

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Speaker 3: of people came to Linka's defense. The Labor Party, for example,

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Speaker 3: the opposition in the UK came to his defense, and

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Speaker 3: a number of high profile TV presenters, including some who

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Speaker 3: you would not normally associate with Link's side of politics,

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Speaker 3: and pretty conservative people like Piers Morgan and Jeremy Clarkson,

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Speaker 3: some names that might be familiar to you. So there

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Speaker 3: was a huge backlash and a few days later, on Monday,

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Speaker 3: the BBC said that they'd returned Link. At a Match

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Speaker 3: of the day, the BBC director General denied that it

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Speaker 3: was about backing down, but said that they had reached

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Speaker 3: an agreement and they were going to independently review their

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Speaker 3: social media policies for employees, particularly hinging on the question

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Speaker 3: of whether sports presenters, entertainment presenters, people whose job is

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Speaker 3: not to do the news, how far they're allowed to

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Speaker 3: go with political commentary. That's something the BBC is now

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Speaker 3: going to look into. Lineker himself has said he's looking

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Speaker 3: forward to moving on and the week had been difficult,

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Speaker 3: but he also said quote here, it simply doesn't compare

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Speaker 3: to having to flee your home from persecutional war to

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Speaker 3: seek refuge in the land far away. It's heartwarming to

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Speaker 3: have seen the empathy towards their plight from so many

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Speaker 3: of you. So I suppose continuing to an express a

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Speaker 3: view there in a matter of words, Lineker.

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Speaker 2: Tom, do you think this is a BBC specific issue

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Speaker 2: or would Linka have faced similar criticism if he was

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Speaker 2: a commentator at say ESPN on ESPN's football coverage.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, I think. I mean there's always we always have

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Speaker 3: debates about you know, free speech and employment and you know,

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Speaker 3: what can you say that's not going to get your

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Speaker 3: employer off side? So in one sense it's a broader issue.

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Speaker 3: But no, I think that you know, it is really

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Speaker 3: specifically important here that this was the BBC and you know,

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Speaker 3: a public broadcaster, much like if you imagined a similar

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Speaker 3: thing happening with a high profile ABC sports presenter. It's

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Speaker 3: a really tricky issue for public broadcasters to kind of

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Speaker 3: maintain their impartiality. And it's worth pointing out here that

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Speaker 3: a big part of the backlash against the BBC was

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Speaker 3: because the BBC is actually perceived by a lot of

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Speaker 3: people as having a bias in the other direction, a

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Speaker 3: conservative bias. So one of the big things that was

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Speaker 3: kind of brought to light and talked about a lot

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Speaker 3: in the last week in response to Lnica was what

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Speaker 3: a lot of people said was a double standard. So

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Speaker 3: the chair of the BBC, who's kind of appointed by

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Speaker 3: the government, is a big donor to the Conservative Party

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Speaker 3: who's in government in the UK. He gave four hundred

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Speaker 3: thousand pounds to the Conservative Party. He's a friend of

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Speaker 3: Boris Johnson's and the BBC's director General, who was kind

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Speaker 3: of the face of all of this, that's essentially like

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Speaker 3: the CEO of the BBC. He once ran as a

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Speaker 3: Conservative candidate in a local council election. He's been involved

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Speaker 3: in the Conservative Party in the past as well. So

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Speaker 3: to have these two figures who have conservative political links

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Speaker 3: at the top of the BBC kind of leading this

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Speaker 3: charge to get rid of Linka for making a progressive

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Speaker 3: comment will A lot of people sort of pointed to

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Speaker 3: that as a bit of a double standard, which shows

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Speaker 3: in both directions what a difficult thing it is for

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Speaker 3: the BBC to maintain its independence and similar challenges to

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Speaker 3: what the ABS.

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Speaker 1: You know.

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Speaker 3: I think it speaks to the fact that. You know,

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Speaker 3: a lot of people recognize the importance of public funded

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Speaker 3: broadcasters because they're supposed to be impartial and reliable sources

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Speaker 3: of information compared to media companies that have a commercial

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Speaker 3: incentive or might be owned by particular people with particular

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Speaker 3: political views. But it's really difficult to maintain that when

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Speaker 3: the government's the one that funds you, and when there's

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Speaker 3: always going to be that sort of pressure potentially coming

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Speaker 3: from the government. We've dealt with that in Australia with

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Speaker 3: the ABC and the SBS as well. When Malcolm Turnbull

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Speaker 3: was Prime Minister, there was pressure to sack an SBS

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Speaker 3: journalist over some comments that he'd made on ANZAC Day.

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Speaker 3: There was a whole incident that the ABC about Malcolm

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Speaker 3: Turnbull kind of allegations that he complained about the way

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Speaker 3: that he was being covered by particular political journalists. And so,

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Speaker 3: you know, the pressure that can come from the government

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Speaker 3: that is responsible for funding these public broadcasters makes it

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Speaker 3: really difficult again for them to maintain their independence. So

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Speaker 3: you know, in a sense you could say that they're

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Speaker 3: kind of caught between the rock and a hard place here,

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Speaker 3: but as you can see their same it's part of

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Speaker 3: a really big argument about well, what does it actually

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Speaker 3: look like to be an independent public broadcaster and how

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Speaker 3: well is the BBC doing that job overall?

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Speaker 2: Tom, thanks for joining us, Thanks Sam.

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Speaker 4: Thanks for joining us on the Daily OZ. If you

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Speaker 4: learned something from today's episode, don't forget to hit subscribe

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Speaker 4: so there's a TVA episode waiting for you every weekday morning.

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Speaker 4: We'll be back again tomorrow morning, but until then, have

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Speaker 4: a brilliant day.