1
00:00:03,440 --> 00:00:05,519
Speaker 1: It's the Happy Families podcast.

2
00:00:05,880 --> 00:00:07,000
Speaker 2: It's the podcast for.

3
00:00:07,000 --> 00:00:10,920
Speaker 1: The time poor parent who just wants answers Now.

4
00:00:10,960 --> 00:00:12,840
Speaker 2: Just over a week ago, we received an email that

5
00:00:13,039 --> 00:00:16,560
Speaker 2: caught my attention. Podcasts at happy families dot com is

6
00:00:16,600 --> 00:00:20,000
Speaker 2: the email address podcasts with an s at happy families

7
00:00:20,040 --> 00:00:24,560
Speaker 2: dot com. Somebody shot through an email and what they

8
00:00:24,560 --> 00:00:27,200
Speaker 2: basically said was the start of the year, we've been

9
00:00:27,200 --> 00:00:28,720
Speaker 2: trying to work out what to do about our kids

10
00:00:28,800 --> 00:00:32,080
Speaker 2: and schooling. We try to work out same gender or

11
00:00:32,120 --> 00:00:35,640
Speaker 2: co ed what should we do? What does the research say?

12
00:00:36,680 --> 00:00:39,680
Speaker 2: And so I dive into the research. Kylie had a

13
00:00:39,680 --> 00:00:41,920
Speaker 2: good look at it. I had some pretty strong preconceived

14
00:00:41,920 --> 00:00:45,320
Speaker 2: ideas based on my experiences in and around both co

15
00:00:45,520 --> 00:00:48,200
Speaker 2: ed and same gender schools. I mean, I've been working

16
00:00:48,200 --> 00:00:50,920
Speaker 2: in and around schools now for about fifteen years, and

17
00:00:51,000 --> 00:00:53,800
Speaker 2: I was quite surprised by what the research had to say.

18
00:00:54,400 --> 00:00:57,800
Speaker 1: I know, the school selection is a huge consideration for

19
00:00:57,920 --> 00:01:02,160
Speaker 1: parents across the country the world, like we're constantly trying

20
00:01:02,160 --> 00:01:02,880
Speaker 1: to work out.

21
00:01:03,040 --> 00:01:05,440
Speaker 2: We've done podcasts on it, right, webinar it's the.

22
00:01:05,360 --> 00:01:07,560
Speaker 1: Best school is and where we should send our kids?

23
00:01:07,600 --> 00:01:10,880
Speaker 1: And the sleepless nights and the anxiety and all of

24
00:01:10,880 --> 00:01:15,119
Speaker 1: that that's associated with making this decision and wondering whether

25
00:01:15,160 --> 00:01:17,399
Speaker 1: or not we're doing the right thing. But as far

26
00:01:17,440 --> 00:01:21,880
Speaker 1: as same sex schools go, there are actually many around No, not.

27
00:01:21,840 --> 00:01:24,639
Speaker 2: Really, So I did some digging and what I found

28
00:01:24,760 --> 00:01:27,760
Speaker 2: was that there's a round about let's say nine and

29
00:01:27,800 --> 00:01:30,040
Speaker 2: a half ten thousand schools in Australia, give or take

30
00:01:30,120 --> 00:01:34,240
Speaker 2: something in that ten thousand school ballpark, less than four

31
00:01:34,240 --> 00:01:37,240
Speaker 2: percent of all schools, so that would be less than

32
00:01:37,240 --> 00:01:40,520
Speaker 2: four hundred schools in the country, either all boy or

33
00:01:40,560 --> 00:01:45,840
Speaker 2: all girls schools. And what we're finding is increasingly government

34
00:01:45,920 --> 00:01:49,720
Speaker 2: schools are shutting down the single sex schools and going

35
00:01:49,760 --> 00:01:52,520
Speaker 2: co ed. There's still a lot more private schools, but

36
00:01:52,600 --> 00:01:55,840
Speaker 2: the government schools are increasingly hard to find. In fact,

37
00:01:55,840 --> 00:01:58,560
Speaker 2: you can only find them in New South Wales, South Australia, Victoria.

38
00:01:58,760 --> 00:02:01,320
Speaker 1: I was going to say, I don't have one around

39
00:02:01,400 --> 00:02:01,800
Speaker 1: us at.

40
00:02:01,720 --> 00:02:06,760
Speaker 2: All, No government schools, No plenty of same gender private schools.

41
00:02:07,280 --> 00:02:09,480
Speaker 2: But something else that I found this is really fascinating.

42
00:02:09,520 --> 00:02:11,760
Speaker 2: I think when I was doing the digging, there is

43
00:02:11,800 --> 00:02:16,680
Speaker 2: a premium that parents place on single sex schools, so

44
00:02:16,800 --> 00:02:19,720
Speaker 2: much so that real estate in areas where there is

45
00:02:19,760 --> 00:02:23,040
Speaker 2: a same gender school is pricier, and it's not just

46
00:02:23,120 --> 00:02:25,840
Speaker 2: because they're in the fancy inner city areas, which is

47
00:02:25,840 --> 00:02:28,160
Speaker 2: more often than not the case, not all of them are.

48
00:02:28,800 --> 00:02:32,400
Speaker 2: But what I found was when it comes to government schools,

49
00:02:33,320 --> 00:02:37,000
Speaker 2: the suburbs where those single sex government schools are located

50
00:02:37,840 --> 00:02:40,880
Speaker 2: get about a two percent premium for a house, which,

51
00:02:41,080 --> 00:02:42,959
Speaker 2: if you're looking at an average home, is somewhere around

52
00:02:43,000 --> 00:02:47,800
Speaker 2: the twenty to twenty five thousand dollars boost in those states. Obviously,

53
00:02:47,840 --> 00:02:49,840
Speaker 2: some of those suburbs are worth a lot more and

54
00:02:49,880 --> 00:02:51,880
Speaker 2: some are worth a bit less, but on average, we're

55
00:02:51,919 --> 00:02:56,240
Speaker 2: talking about a significant premium just to live in an

56
00:02:56,280 --> 00:02:57,960
Speaker 2: area where there is a single sex school so that

57
00:02:58,000 --> 00:03:01,280
Speaker 2: parents can get their kids in there. That's how prized

58
00:03:01,320 --> 00:03:03,680
Speaker 2: it is in the eyes of enough of the population.

59
00:03:04,360 --> 00:03:05,600
Speaker 1: I find that intriguing.

60
00:03:06,080 --> 00:03:09,440
Speaker 2: Yeah, absolutely, especially since a close look at the evidence

61
00:03:10,360 --> 00:03:14,760
Speaker 2: indicates that people might be paying for well, there's arguments

62
00:03:14,800 --> 00:03:17,000
Speaker 2: for and arguments against. Why don't we go through the

63
00:03:17,120 --> 00:03:22,040
Speaker 2: arguments for the pros in theory, Okay, in theory why

64
00:03:22,080 --> 00:03:24,799
Speaker 2: people might want a single sex school for their kids.

65
00:03:24,840 --> 00:03:29,600
Speaker 2: So academics make the following five central arguments for why

66
00:03:29,720 --> 00:03:32,440
Speaker 2: same sex schools are positive. First off, there's an argument

67
00:03:32,480 --> 00:03:36,640
Speaker 2: that academic performance is higher. It's commonly accepted that you

68
00:03:36,640 --> 00:03:39,720
Speaker 2: get better our academic outcomes in a single sex school.

69
00:03:40,160 --> 00:03:43,160
Speaker 1: So my impression, and it is just my impression. I've

70
00:03:43,160 --> 00:03:47,120
Speaker 1: had no experience, but my impression is that same sex schools,

71
00:03:47,280 --> 00:03:51,400
Speaker 1: generally speaking, it's very competitive to get in. They are

72
00:03:51,440 --> 00:03:56,440
Speaker 1: in very prestigious suburbs to start with, so it costs

73
00:03:56,560 --> 00:03:59,480
Speaker 1: a lot. The average person doesn't just walk in the door.

74
00:04:00,320 --> 00:04:03,920
Speaker 1: And as a result, the resources that are available to

75
00:04:04,000 --> 00:04:07,080
Speaker 1: these kids, not only within the school setting, but within

76
00:04:07,120 --> 00:04:12,520
Speaker 1: their own homes and neighborhoods would obviously give them a

77
00:04:12,600 --> 00:04:16,200
Speaker 1: greater advantage than the average student at the public school

78
00:04:16,200 --> 00:04:16,640
Speaker 1: down the road.

79
00:04:16,800 --> 00:04:18,880
Speaker 2: This is a really important insight that you've raised. I'm

80
00:04:18,920 --> 00:04:21,400
Speaker 2: so stoked that you came up with that. When socioeconomic

81
00:04:21,440 --> 00:04:25,839
Speaker 2: status is controlled for in academic research and the appropriate

82
00:04:25,920 --> 00:04:29,000
Speaker 2: variables are controlled for, the difference between single sex and

83
00:04:29,000 --> 00:04:32,400
Speaker 2: co ed schools drops to practically zero. So in theory,

84
00:04:32,880 --> 00:04:34,760
Speaker 2: they're better. But once you look at the real world

85
00:04:34,839 --> 00:04:38,720
Speaker 2: ramifications how that plays out, you're absolutely right, single sex

86
00:04:38,760 --> 00:04:41,800
Speaker 2: schools will outperform co ed schools, but it actually usually

87
00:04:41,880 --> 00:04:43,920
Speaker 2: has more to do with the postcode than it has

88
00:04:43,960 --> 00:04:46,040
Speaker 2: to do with what's happening in the school. At least

89
00:04:46,080 --> 00:04:48,159
Speaker 2: that's what it looks like from a statistical point of view.

90
00:04:48,640 --> 00:04:53,520
Speaker 2: Second key thing that proponents will argue make single sex

91
00:04:53,560 --> 00:04:56,680
Speaker 2: schools better is that there's an argument that there's reduced

92
00:04:56,880 --> 00:05:01,680
Speaker 2: gender stereotyping. Essentially, if there are a whole bunch of

93
00:05:01,760 --> 00:05:04,680
Speaker 2: girls at a school or a whole bunch of boys

94
00:05:04,760 --> 00:05:07,440
Speaker 2: at a school, the idea is that they're more likely

95
00:05:07,520 --> 00:05:10,520
Speaker 2: to dabble in a broader range of subjects and activities

96
00:05:10,720 --> 00:05:12,479
Speaker 2: without feeling like they have to live up to a

97
00:05:12,520 --> 00:05:16,520
Speaker 2: certain gender expectation or follow a particular bias.

98
00:05:17,160 --> 00:05:20,720
Speaker 1: Is that actually playing out though, in what we're seeing

99
00:05:20,760 --> 00:05:24,000
Speaker 1: as a result, like a girl's coming out being computer

100
00:05:24,080 --> 00:05:28,240
Speaker 1: geniuses and you know, doing things that would stereotypically not

101
00:05:28,640 --> 00:05:33,839
Speaker 1: be female driven careers as a result of the fact

102
00:05:33,839 --> 00:05:36,640
Speaker 1: that they're not competing with males and vice versa.

103
00:05:36,720 --> 00:05:38,680
Speaker 2: This one is a little bit complicated, and when I

104
00:05:38,760 --> 00:05:40,760
Speaker 2: look carefully at the data, what I find is this.

105
00:05:41,520 --> 00:05:43,919
Speaker 2: So again, looking at what the pros apparently are and

106
00:05:43,960 --> 00:05:46,000
Speaker 2: then how they truly play out in the real world,

107
00:05:46,360 --> 00:05:49,600
Speaker 2: there is definitely evidence that girls are much more inclined

108
00:05:49,839 --> 00:05:53,040
Speaker 2: in a in an all girls environment to spread their

109
00:05:53,080 --> 00:05:56,120
Speaker 2: wings and enroll in subjects that are traditionally and I

110
00:05:57,160 --> 00:05:59,040
Speaker 2: sort of chafe at the word traditionally, but I'll use

111
00:05:59,040 --> 00:06:03,920
Speaker 2: it anyway, that traditionally more likely to be oriented towards boys.

112
00:06:04,120 --> 00:06:08,239
Speaker 1: So I'm guessing based on that, you're talking more about

113
00:06:08,240 --> 00:06:11,159
Speaker 1: those academically robust subjects.

114
00:06:10,800 --> 00:06:13,760
Speaker 2: Chemistry, physics, high level maths, all that kind of stuff, engineering,

115
00:06:13,920 --> 00:06:17,120
Speaker 2: all the stem subjects, basically the science, technology, engineering, math subjects.

116
00:06:17,440 --> 00:06:19,320
Speaker 2: Girls in single sex schools are much more likely to

117
00:06:19,400 --> 00:06:21,159
Speaker 2: go into those areas than they might be in a

118
00:06:21,160 --> 00:06:23,200
Speaker 2: co ed environment. Now that's not to say girls in

119
00:06:23,200 --> 00:06:26,320
Speaker 2: co ed environments don't. It's just that the likelihood the

120
00:06:26,360 --> 00:06:30,000
Speaker 2: gender stereotyping is lower in a girls school. But what

121
00:06:30,120 --> 00:06:33,560
Speaker 2: I find fascinating, and I should also mention logitun or

122
00:06:33,600 --> 00:06:35,719
Speaker 2: data shows that girls from single sex schools are not

123
00:06:36,560 --> 00:06:39,640
Speaker 2: more likely to major in physical or life sciences than

124
00:06:39,680 --> 00:06:42,240
Speaker 2: their co educational peers once they get to UNI. Okay,

125
00:06:42,279 --> 00:06:44,840
Speaker 2: so that seems to water down once they get into

126
00:06:44,920 --> 00:06:47,520
Speaker 2: university and can choose whatever they want. But here's the thing.

127
00:06:47,880 --> 00:06:51,440
Speaker 2: Boys in or boys' schools aren't in the main signing

128
00:06:51,520 --> 00:06:53,680
Speaker 2: up for traditionally female subjects.

129
00:06:53,960 --> 00:06:59,040
Speaker 1: Yeah, so they're still sticking to very traditionally accepted male

130
00:06:59,360 --> 00:07:01,040
Speaker 1: correct Domini subjects.

131
00:07:00,600 --> 00:07:03,400
Speaker 2: Which in some ways becomes a con right because of

132
00:07:03,440 --> 00:07:06,080
Speaker 2: the hot housing of male stereotyping. But we'll get there

133
00:07:06,080 --> 00:07:08,720
Speaker 2: in a sec. Third big reason that people will say

134
00:07:09,080 --> 00:07:11,320
Speaker 2: single sex schools are better is just the idea of

135
00:07:11,320 --> 00:07:16,160
Speaker 2: increased confidence. Some research indicates that students in same sex

136
00:07:16,160 --> 00:07:19,880
Speaker 2: schools may develop high levels of confidence because they're not

137
00:07:19,920 --> 00:07:22,360
Speaker 2: competing with the opposite gender in terms of their academic

138
00:07:22,600 --> 00:07:27,240
Speaker 2: activities their extracurricular activities. I think in real life this

139
00:07:27,320 --> 00:07:29,600
Speaker 2: is more of an issue for girls than it is

140
00:07:29,920 --> 00:07:30,520
Speaker 2: for boys.

141
00:07:30,680 --> 00:07:32,560
Speaker 1: I was about to say, I actually feel like this

142
00:07:32,600 --> 00:07:36,000
Speaker 1: would be a benefit to girls. I feel like being

143
00:07:36,040 --> 00:07:41,760
Speaker 1: able to participate in different subjects and just be accepted

144
00:07:41,960 --> 00:07:45,920
Speaker 1: for who you are and what you're capable of instead

145
00:07:45,920 --> 00:07:50,440
Speaker 1: of being stereotyped within that co ed situation would really

146
00:07:50,640 --> 00:07:54,320
Speaker 1: increase a girl's ability and confidence to move forward.

147
00:07:54,400 --> 00:07:58,040
Speaker 2: Yeah, so the idea there. The theory is that it

148
00:07:58,040 --> 00:08:00,800
Speaker 2: boosts confidence. I think that there's a gender difference at play,

149
00:08:01,080 --> 00:08:04,880
Speaker 2: although I can't find evidence to support my theorizing, So

150
00:08:05,200 --> 00:08:07,600
Speaker 2: I just need to tread gently. There the two other

151
00:08:07,640 --> 00:08:09,960
Speaker 2: things that are quickly worth mentioning in terms of pros

152
00:08:10,760 --> 00:08:13,640
Speaker 2: tailored teaching strategies. Now, this is a big one, and

153
00:08:13,920 --> 00:08:16,640
Speaker 2: what I have found, I've watched this happen. Educators in

154
00:08:16,680 --> 00:08:19,760
Speaker 2: single sex schools are very much able to tailor their

155
00:08:19,760 --> 00:08:21,760
Speaker 2: teaching methods to better suit the learning styles and the

156
00:08:21,800 --> 00:08:25,240
Speaker 2: preferences of particular gender, which means that we can help

157
00:08:25,240 --> 00:08:27,840
Speaker 2: them with those academic outcomes, or at least, if not

158
00:08:27,920 --> 00:08:30,320
Speaker 2: academic outcomes, based on what we're saying before, at least

159
00:08:30,320 --> 00:08:32,800
Speaker 2: with better engagement. We need to take the post code

160
00:08:32,840 --> 00:08:35,360
Speaker 2: issue into consideration here as well. We just talked about that.

161
00:08:35,760 --> 00:08:38,120
Speaker 2: But the other thing to bear in mind is that

162
00:08:38,160 --> 00:08:42,600
Speaker 2: there is more within gender variation than there is between

163
00:08:42,760 --> 00:08:46,600
Speaker 2: gender variation. That is, girls range from very high to

164
00:08:46,679 --> 00:08:49,640
Speaker 2: very low on a whole lot of variables, as do boys.

165
00:08:49,920 --> 00:08:52,000
Speaker 2: On average, Girls or boys might be higher or lower

166
00:08:52,080 --> 00:08:54,480
Speaker 2: on one than the other, but the difference between the

167
00:08:54,480 --> 00:08:59,079
Speaker 2: genders isn't enormous. There's much more within gender variation than

168
00:08:59,360 --> 00:09:03,520
Speaker 2: between variation. Nevertheless, I do see it happen, especially when

169
00:09:03,520 --> 00:09:06,160
Speaker 2: I'm in boys' schools. I watch the way the teachers

170
00:09:06,160 --> 00:09:08,319
Speaker 2: engage with the boys, and I compare that to what's

171
00:09:08,320 --> 00:09:13,040
Speaker 2: happening in girls schools, and it really is absolutely different. Yeah,

172
00:09:13,240 --> 00:09:16,040
Speaker 2: fundamentally different, and I can't help but think that that

173
00:09:16,080 --> 00:09:19,600
Speaker 2: has to be a positive, a real positive for both

174
00:09:19,600 --> 00:09:22,320
Speaker 2: the girls or the boys in those schools. The final

175
00:09:22,840 --> 00:09:27,000
Speaker 2: major pro in theory is that there's minimized distractions.

176
00:09:27,320 --> 00:09:30,160
Speaker 1: Well, I guess that's probably the one that most people

177
00:09:30,200 --> 00:09:33,280
Speaker 1: talk about all the time in their decision to send

178
00:09:33,360 --> 00:09:34,800
Speaker 1: their kids to The.

179
00:09:34,760 --> 00:09:36,800
Speaker 2: Girls don't have to worry about the boys, and the

180
00:09:36,840 --> 00:09:39,040
Speaker 2: boys don't have to worry about the girls, So they're

181
00:09:39,080 --> 00:09:41,520
Speaker 2: the pros.

182
00:09:43,880 --> 00:09:47,000
Speaker 1: I'm interested to know what the cons are because based

183
00:09:47,040 --> 00:09:50,079
Speaker 1: on what you've shared, it would seem like sending your

184
00:09:50,440 --> 00:09:54,320
Speaker 1: kids to a same sex school actually sounds pretty good.

185
00:09:54,480 --> 00:09:57,080
Speaker 2: It does, and I completely understand why parents would choose

186
00:09:57,120 --> 00:09:59,400
Speaker 2: to do that. Let me go through four cons really quickly,

187
00:09:59,440 --> 00:10:03,640
Speaker 2: because there are, I think concerning drawbacks to same sex education. Now, again,

188
00:10:03,679 --> 00:10:05,440
Speaker 2: this is the theoretical stuff. We need to talk about

189
00:10:05,480 --> 00:10:08,160
Speaker 2: on the ground practical stuff shortly. But number one, there

190
00:10:08,200 --> 00:10:11,920
Speaker 2: is the limited social interaction. Okay, so most critics of

191
00:10:12,200 --> 00:10:15,120
Speaker 2: same sex education are going to say that being in

192
00:10:15,160 --> 00:10:17,440
Speaker 2: a school with all the kids of the same gender

193
00:10:17,480 --> 00:10:20,319
Speaker 2: are going to limit students exposure at diverse perspectives, and

194
00:10:20,440 --> 00:10:22,880
Speaker 2: it's going to reduce opportunities for healthy social interaction between

195
00:10:22,920 --> 00:10:23,439
Speaker 2: the genders.

196
00:10:23,840 --> 00:10:27,400
Speaker 1: I find this interesting, though, because it's not like school

197
00:10:27,440 --> 00:10:31,320
Speaker 1: is their only social network, or we're treating it like

198
00:10:31,360 --> 00:10:33,520
Speaker 1: it is it's the only time that they'll get out.

199
00:10:33,679 --> 00:10:36,360
Speaker 2: Well for some it is, especially for the boys or

200
00:10:36,400 --> 00:10:38,800
Speaker 2: girls who are a boarding school, for example, or for

201
00:10:38,840 --> 00:10:42,400
Speaker 2: the kids who extremely studious or have a lot of

202
00:10:42,400 --> 00:10:44,640
Speaker 2: pressure placed on them by parents who pretty much say,

203
00:10:44,640 --> 00:10:46,240
Speaker 2: go to school, then come home and study. We're talking

204
00:10:46,240 --> 00:10:48,959
Speaker 2: about later years, particularly, or whose lives are so full

205
00:10:49,000 --> 00:10:51,560
Speaker 2: of extracurricular activities that they're not getting a lot of

206
00:10:51,600 --> 00:10:54,520
Speaker 2: social interaction with the other gender. It's not a high

207
00:10:54,520 --> 00:10:58,600
Speaker 2: probability outcome, but it certainly does happen.

208
00:10:58,760 --> 00:11:01,560
Speaker 1: But those things would be problematic whether you are at

209
00:11:01,559 --> 00:11:04,680
Speaker 1: a co ed school or not, because your level of

210
00:11:05,360 --> 00:11:08,600
Speaker 1: social interaction is limited based on all of those things.

211
00:11:09,000 --> 00:11:14,320
Speaker 2: The second major theoretical con is real world preparedness. What

212
00:11:14,360 --> 00:11:15,800
Speaker 2: I mean by that is that there are people who

213
00:11:15,800 --> 00:11:18,880
Speaker 2: will argue that same sex education may not adequately prepare

214
00:11:18,920 --> 00:11:21,600
Speaker 2: students for the real world where they're going to have

215
00:11:21,600 --> 00:11:24,920
Speaker 2: to interact with people of all genders in various settings.

216
00:11:25,320 --> 00:11:26,360
Speaker 2: To me, it's bunk.

217
00:11:26,640 --> 00:11:30,280
Speaker 1: I mean, their teachers aren't all female, whether their teachers

218
00:11:30,280 --> 00:11:31,560
Speaker 1: aren't all male, not.

219
00:11:31,880 --> 00:11:34,200
Speaker 2: Just that, but they've got family members and they do

220
00:11:34,240 --> 00:11:36,680
Speaker 2: actually have life outside of school. So I find that

221
00:11:36,720 --> 00:11:40,080
Speaker 2: one really quite a weak argument against it. The other two.

222
00:11:40,720 --> 00:11:44,440
Speaker 2: This one is a big one stereotype reinforcement. There is

223
00:11:44,480 --> 00:11:52,200
Speaker 2: a concern that single sex environments might inadvertently, sometimes even

224
00:11:52,240 --> 00:11:57,280
Speaker 2: explicitly and intentionally reinforced gender stereotypes by removing the opportunity

225
00:11:57,320 --> 00:11:59,439
Speaker 2: for students to learn about and appreciate the differences between

226
00:11:59,440 --> 00:12:00,160
Speaker 2: the genders.

227
00:12:00,960 --> 00:12:04,360
Speaker 1: I feel like this one would actually play out more

228
00:12:04,440 --> 00:12:09,640
Speaker 1: so in boys' schools well. I feel like, as a whole,

229
00:12:09,840 --> 00:12:16,160
Speaker 1: societies really worked hard at giving women opportunities and helping

230
00:12:16,200 --> 00:12:18,360
Speaker 1: girls recognize that, you know, they don't have to fall

231
00:12:18,400 --> 00:12:20,839
Speaker 1: into stereotypes, Whereas I still think there's still a lot

232
00:12:20,840 --> 00:12:24,600
Speaker 1: of work for us to do in helping our boys

233
00:12:24,679 --> 00:12:26,760
Speaker 1: to grow into healthy, productive men.

234
00:12:27,480 --> 00:12:30,920
Speaker 2: I hear people share those sentiments a lot. That's one

235
00:12:30,960 --> 00:12:32,439
Speaker 2: of the big concerns, and I want to give a

236
00:12:32,480 --> 00:12:35,319
Speaker 2: couple of examples of that shortly narrower skill set development

237
00:12:35,360 --> 00:12:38,679
Speaker 2: is the fourth and final idea. Essentially, exposure to diverse

238
00:12:38,720 --> 00:12:42,800
Speaker 2: perspectives in a co educational setting can contribute to the

239
00:12:42,840 --> 00:12:46,679
Speaker 2: development of interpersonal skills that are crucial for ongoing success,

240
00:12:46,880 --> 00:12:48,920
Speaker 2: which might be limited in a same sex environment. I

241
00:12:48,920 --> 00:12:50,920
Speaker 2: mean to me, this is a variation of the second

242
00:12:50,920 --> 00:12:52,680
Speaker 2: one that we shared, but it comes up a lot

243
00:12:52,920 --> 00:12:55,320
Speaker 2: and people frame it and phrase it in different ways.

244
00:12:55,840 --> 00:12:59,120
Speaker 2: His help plays out in the real world. I've already

245
00:12:59,120 --> 00:13:01,840
Speaker 2: talked about stereo types, have already talked about academic performance.

246
00:13:02,160 --> 00:13:03,960
Speaker 2: But when we move away from theory and get into

247
00:13:03,960 --> 00:13:07,840
Speaker 2: what's really happening when it comes to girls, we know

248
00:13:08,000 --> 00:13:11,120
Speaker 2: this social and emotional well being is lower for girls

249
00:13:11,120 --> 00:13:13,880
Speaker 2: in co ed schools than in single sex schools, And

250
00:13:14,280 --> 00:13:17,760
Speaker 2: we also know that girls in co ed schools do

251
00:13:17,920 --> 00:13:22,240
Speaker 2: experience high levels higher i should say, levels of gender

252
00:13:22,280 --> 00:13:25,360
Speaker 2: bias and stereotyping, and they're more likely to be sexually

253
00:13:25,360 --> 00:13:28,480
Speaker 2: harassed and bullied. So students that are educated in an

254
00:13:28,520 --> 00:13:32,280
Speaker 2: all girls environment do tend to be more confident. They're

255
00:13:32,280 --> 00:13:34,600
Speaker 2: more likely to take on risks and challenges and be

256
00:13:34,640 --> 00:13:37,520
Speaker 2: competitive and push themselves. They're not worried about the judgments

257
00:13:37,520 --> 00:13:40,640
Speaker 2: and the inappropriate comments from the sidelines. They're more willing

258
00:13:40,679 --> 00:13:43,280
Speaker 2: to take risks, basically, and I really like that. Now

259
00:13:43,320 --> 00:13:47,240
Speaker 2: on boys a friend, And granted this is a sample

260
00:13:47,240 --> 00:13:49,199
Speaker 2: size of one, so we're not talking about the huge

261
00:13:49,240 --> 00:13:51,080
Speaker 2: data here. We're just talking about somebody who told me

262
00:13:51,120 --> 00:13:54,439
Speaker 2: that going to a boys' school made him shy around women.

263
00:13:55,120 --> 00:13:58,199
Speaker 2: But worse, he said that he felt that it fueled

264
00:13:58,200 --> 00:14:02,120
Speaker 2: the sexist idea that women were inferior intellectually and in

265
00:14:02,160 --> 00:14:05,680
Speaker 2: other ways. And he suggested that that lack of female

266
00:14:05,679 --> 00:14:09,360
Speaker 2: friends and girlfriends could lead to objectification. Now, when we

267
00:14:09,440 --> 00:14:12,559
Speaker 2: look at that infamous twenty twenty two Saint Kevin's two

268
00:14:12,679 --> 00:14:16,600
Speaker 2: rac example egregious indicator, where those boys were on that

269
00:14:16,640 --> 00:14:20,640
Speaker 2: suburban tram and they were filmed seeing that awful chant,

270
00:14:21,440 --> 00:14:24,440
Speaker 2: it certainly reinforces the stereotype that that could be happening,

271
00:14:24,480 --> 00:14:26,200
Speaker 2: and that kind of aligns with what you were getting

272
00:14:26,240 --> 00:14:30,960
Speaker 2: at before. But then we look at even more evidence,

273
00:14:31,920 --> 00:14:35,600
Speaker 2: the various testimonials that were in the Chanelle Coontos Teachers

274
00:14:35,640 --> 00:14:40,240
Speaker 2: Consent petition. Boys from private schools were getting absolutely slammed

275
00:14:40,280 --> 00:14:43,360
Speaker 2: by the girls and saying they just don't get it.

276
00:14:44,160 --> 00:14:46,760
Speaker 2: So the argument basically is in a boy's school, not

277
00:14:46,760 --> 00:14:48,480
Speaker 2: so much in a girl's school, but in a boy's school.

278
00:14:48,520 --> 00:14:51,320
Speaker 2: It could be argued that an absence of relationships leads

279
00:14:51,360 --> 00:14:56,160
Speaker 2: to emotional immaturity and insecurity when those boys eventually have partners,

280
00:14:56,240 --> 00:14:58,680
Speaker 2: But the evidence doesn't support this at an aggregate level,

281
00:14:58,880 --> 00:15:01,800
Speaker 2: only at an individual level with one on one case

282
00:15:01,800 --> 00:15:03,880
Speaker 2: study sort of thing. So I found some long channel

283
00:15:03,920 --> 00:15:07,600
Speaker 2: research from England showed no statistical difference between same sex

284
00:15:07,640 --> 00:15:11,760
Speaker 2: and co ed schools for relationship outcomes like marriage and

285
00:15:11,920 --> 00:15:17,160
Speaker 2: age of childbearing and relationship quality. Men from all boys

286
00:15:17,200 --> 00:15:19,200
Speaker 2: schools were just slightly more likely to be divorced by

287
00:15:19,200 --> 00:15:21,600
Speaker 2: the age of forty two, but there was no statistical

288
00:15:21,640 --> 00:15:24,160
Speaker 2: difference in terms of the amount of household labor that

289
00:15:24,200 --> 00:15:27,360
Speaker 2: was being done. But that stereotype persists that those boys

290
00:15:27,360 --> 00:15:30,560
Speaker 2: have a prime minister leadership mentality, like they believe that

291
00:15:30,760 --> 00:15:34,280
Speaker 2: being in charge is their ride. Here's something really telling though,

292
00:15:35,000 --> 00:15:37,880
Speaker 2: when I was looking at the trends in Australia on

293
00:15:38,120 --> 00:15:41,840
Speaker 2: co ed and single sex schools, there are more and

294
00:15:41,920 --> 00:15:44,720
Speaker 2: more single sex schools that have chosen to move to

295
00:15:45,000 --> 00:15:49,040
Speaker 2: co ed in recent years. So it's happening right now

296
00:15:49,080 --> 00:15:51,920
Speaker 2: with a very very prominent school in Sydney. A couple

297
00:15:51,960 --> 00:15:54,600
Speaker 2: of years ago, another very prominent school in Sydney did it.

298
00:15:54,840 --> 00:15:56,520
Speaker 2: But when you look at who's opening their gates to

299
00:15:56,560 --> 00:16:00,800
Speaker 2: the other gender, it's really revealing. The overwhelming majority have

300
00:16:00,880 --> 00:16:06,200
Speaker 2: been boys' schools that are offering places to girls. And

301
00:16:06,720 --> 00:16:11,760
Speaker 2: I might just say, very sensitively anecdotally, I've heard horror

302
00:16:11,800 --> 00:16:15,840
Speaker 2: stories as girls have attempted to transition into that previously

303
00:16:16,280 --> 00:16:17,720
Speaker 2: all male environment.

304
00:16:17,920 --> 00:16:20,440
Speaker 1: I imagine, but a girls school.

305
00:16:20,160 --> 00:16:23,760
Speaker 2: Is choosing to bring in boys just doesn't happen. So

306
00:16:24,840 --> 00:16:27,680
Speaker 2: we're out of time. What would I do for my kid?

307
00:16:28,760 --> 00:16:30,400
Speaker 2: How do we make this choice for our child? If

308
00:16:30,440 --> 00:16:32,280
Speaker 2: we're looking at schools and trying to choose between co

309
00:16:32,560 --> 00:16:37,080
Speaker 2: ed and single sex. The first thing that I would

310
00:16:37,080 --> 00:16:38,560
Speaker 2: say is, with all the work that I do in

311
00:16:38,600 --> 00:16:44,440
Speaker 2: all the schools that I work in, I am genuinely, authentically,

312
00:16:44,480 --> 00:16:47,120
Speaker 2: consistently amazed at the equality of the staff and the

313
00:16:47,120 --> 00:16:51,520
Speaker 2: outstanding outcomes that single sex schools achieved for their students.

314
00:16:51,800 --> 00:16:56,080
Speaker 2: They are exceptional and exemplary in almost every case. I'm

315
00:16:56,320 --> 00:16:59,800
Speaker 2: always stunned by it and the ability of that the

316
00:16:59,800 --> 00:17:04,200
Speaker 2: te just have to approach a single gender really well

317
00:17:04,400 --> 00:17:06,639
Speaker 2: I really think that it's brilliant and students seem to

318
00:17:06,640 --> 00:17:10,200
Speaker 2: work really well without the opposite gender being present, which

319
00:17:10,200 --> 00:17:12,360
Speaker 2: makes it sound like I'm going to say I'm all

320
00:17:12,400 --> 00:17:13,480
Speaker 2: for single sex schools.

321
00:17:13,800 --> 00:17:16,560
Speaker 1: Well, it's interesting, because yes, I would think that that's

322
00:17:16,560 --> 00:17:18,800
Speaker 1: what you're going to say, But for us, it's actually

323
00:17:18,880 --> 00:17:22,679
Speaker 1: never been a consideration because I actually don't think that

324
00:17:22,880 --> 00:17:26,280
Speaker 1: it is the most important factor in choosing a school.

325
00:17:26,760 --> 00:17:29,840
Speaker 2: I don't either, and that's why we're making the decisions

326
00:17:29,880 --> 00:17:34,600
Speaker 2: that we are making. What matters to me and to you,

327
00:17:34,680 --> 00:17:37,680
Speaker 2: because we've had these conversations is not the gender.

328
00:17:37,400 --> 00:17:39,919
Speaker 1: Mix, but it's the culture of the school.

329
00:17:40,080 --> 00:17:42,760
Speaker 2: Culture of the school, it's what they do there, It's

330
00:17:42,800 --> 00:17:45,400
Speaker 2: how they teach children, it's what their philosophy is. It's

331
00:17:45,560 --> 00:17:47,560
Speaker 2: whether the students are happy to be there, whether the

332
00:17:47,640 --> 00:17:50,400
Speaker 2: kids feel a sense of belonging and acceptance and connection,

333
00:17:50,560 --> 00:17:53,840
Speaker 2: and whether they're engaged and progressing, and what the staff

334
00:17:54,840 --> 00:17:57,400
Speaker 2: do when a student's struggling.

335
00:17:57,880 --> 00:18:00,000
Speaker 1: You're saying this, and literally my eyes are tearing up

336
00:18:00,080 --> 00:18:03,000
Speaker 1: because I remember our kids moving to a school for

337
00:18:03,119 --> 00:18:06,760
Speaker 1: the first on day one, and one of our children

338
00:18:06,800 --> 00:18:09,520
Speaker 1: who had literally in the first three years of her

339
00:18:09,600 --> 00:18:14,880
Speaker 1: life been invited to two birthday parties, arriving that day

340
00:18:15,200 --> 00:18:19,880
Speaker 1: three is her school life, Yes, and having pretty much

341
00:18:19,920 --> 00:18:24,000
Speaker 1: the entire cohort that year's cohort waiting at the top

342
00:18:24,040 --> 00:18:25,920
Speaker 1: of the stairs for her to walk through the gate.

343
00:18:27,320 --> 00:18:30,800
Speaker 1: The culture of that school was so inclusive and our

344
00:18:30,840 --> 00:18:37,280
Speaker 1: girls experience just complete and utter welcome love and acceptance.

345
00:18:37,560 --> 00:18:38,560
Speaker 1: Thank you from day one.

346
00:18:38,680 --> 00:18:41,600
Speaker 2: Thank you see this in Woollongong. So here's here's my

347
00:18:41,680 --> 00:18:43,720
Speaker 2: take on it. If a school checks all the boxes,

348
00:18:44,240 --> 00:18:46,400
Speaker 2: whether it's co ed or single sex should matter at all.

349
00:18:47,080 --> 00:18:50,320
Speaker 2: And if the school doesn't check all the boxes, co

350
00:18:50,480 --> 00:18:53,560
Speaker 2: ed or single sex doesn't matter at all. We hope

351
00:18:53,600 --> 00:18:55,280
Speaker 2: this has been a helpful podcast for those of you

352
00:18:55,320 --> 00:18:57,600
Speaker 2: who are struggling with the choice. Maybe it's less of

353
00:18:57,600 --> 00:19:00,560
Speaker 2: a challenge now. The Happy Family's podcast is produced by

354
00:19:00,680 --> 00:19:02,639
Speaker 2: Justin rule On from Bridge Media. Craig Bruce is our

355
00:19:02,640 --> 00:19:05,280
Speaker 2: executive producer. If you're looking for more information about how

356
00:19:05,280 --> 00:19:07,119
Speaker 2: you can make your family happier or go on a

357
00:19:07,200 --> 00:19:09,879
Speaker 2: quest to help your family flourish, please check out our

358
00:19:09,880 --> 00:19:13,320
Speaker 2: Happy Families membership. It's called the Quest and you can

359
00:19:13,320 --> 00:19:16,480
Speaker 2: find all the info at Happy families dot com dot au.

360
00:19:16,800 --> 00:19:19,920
Speaker 2: Tomorrow on the podcast, we're going to find out which

361
00:19:20,160 --> 00:19:25,200
Speaker 2: group of people top lists of child sex abuses. It's

362
00:19:25,240 --> 00:19:28,720
Speaker 2: one not to miss. The Happy Family's podcast is back tomorrow.

363
00:19:28,880 --> 00:19:29,760
Speaker 2: We'll talk to you there