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Speaker 1: Job mission with Jones and Amanda.

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Speaker 2: Look, this is a topic that many might find morbid,

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Speaker 2: but it's actually fascinating and it really unites us all.

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Speaker 2: It'd be interesting. I don't know whether during the pandemic

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Speaker 2: our fear of death has been more pronounced, But what

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Speaker 2: if the secret to living a better life is to

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Speaker 2: actively acknowledge the fact that you're going to die. Our

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Speaker 2: culture I don't think is particularly good at this. Psychologist

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Speaker 2: and death anxiety expert, fascinating doctor Rachel Menzies has explored

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Speaker 2: all of that in her new book Mortals, and she

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Speaker 2: joins us now, Rachel, Hello, Hi.

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Speaker 3: How's it going?

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Speaker 4: This is all news? So we're all going to die? Rachel? Well,

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Speaker 4: it isn't this interesting?

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Speaker 3: Is it?

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Speaker 2: From the minute we're really old enough to comprehend this,

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Speaker 2: we are all taught and I don't remember how that

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Speaker 2: we are going to die and everyone we love is

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Speaker 2: going to die. It's pretty heavy stuff, isn't it is?

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Speaker 3: It is pretty heavy stuff. And I think partly what

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Speaker 3: makes us so heavy is that people don't talk about it.

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Speaker 3: You know, we lie to kids about it. You know,

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Speaker 3: when I was a kid, we'd drive past roadkill on

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Speaker 3: the road and I'd ask what it was and my

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Speaker 3: dad would tell me it's just a stuffed animal. You

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Speaker 3: know that we can't even talk about dead animals to children,

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Speaker 3: and I think that's what makes it feel heavy. It

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Speaker 3: doesn't have to necessarily be a heavy topic.

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Speaker 2: I'm trying to remember when I discovered. I don't remember

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Speaker 2: the moment, but I do remember going through a period

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Speaker 2: of anxiety that when my parents left the house, I

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Speaker 2: wouldn't see them again. For kids, is that how it manifests?

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Speaker 3: Yeah, absolutely, Or other fears, you know, fears of the

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Speaker 3: monster in the cupboard, or the monster under the bed,

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Speaker 3: fears of dogs. There's so many different ways people can

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Speaker 3: experience this spear.

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Speaker 4: I remember when I was a kid, my Ardie Bessie,

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Speaker 4: or my dad's arty Bessie, had passed away and Dad

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Speaker 4: was explaining it to me, and I said, well, that's

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Speaker 4: tough luck for her. And you know, because I was

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Speaker 4: like six, I didn't expect that I was going to die.

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Speaker 4: I guess, of course it's all going to happen to us.

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Speaker 1: And I remember saying, well, hang on, that just happened. Alardy, Bessie,

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Speaker 1: It's not going to happen.

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Speaker 4: She's old.

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Speaker 3: I'm kid.

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Speaker 4: So how do you brook that object with little kids?

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Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, I think you know, kids figure it out

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Speaker 3: on their own, but it takes some time. So by

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Speaker 3: the time kids attend, for instance, they have a pretty

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Speaker 3: solid understanding of death. But I think you're absolutely right

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Speaker 3: that all of us think death happens to other people,

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Speaker 3: even as adults. We think, you know, other people might die,

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Speaker 3: but surely that can't happen to me. I'm far too

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Speaker 3: kind of special or important for death to really happen

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Speaker 3: to That's something that other people just deal with.

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Speaker 2: But it's thinking of it like that that how do

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Speaker 2: you get up in the morning and go to work

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Speaker 2: or go about your business if you didn't think, hey,

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Speaker 2: I'm slightly impervious, that might be part of your survival mechanism.

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Speaker 3: Yeah. Look, it's something that's kept us alive for thousands

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Speaker 3: and thousands of years as a species, and it's something

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Speaker 3: we've tried to deal with as a species in heaps

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Speaker 3: of different fascinating ways. But it also comes at a

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Speaker 3: huge cost, you know, to live pretending that we're going

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Speaker 3: to live forever. Just it makes it really hard to

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Speaker 3: actually accept death and live the best life you can.

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Speaker 2: So you deal with people who have an extreme fear

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Speaker 2: of death. Why do some of us fear it more

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Speaker 2: than others.

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Speaker 3: It's a really good question. Some people might have had

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Speaker 3: experiences of death growing up. Some people might have had

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Speaker 3: family that see death is very taboo and so don't

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Speaker 3: talk about it as much. And as we talk about

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Speaker 3: in the book, some people are coping with death through

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Speaker 3: really interesting ways, like self esteem. So if I can

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Speaker 3: feel good about myself, if I can feel that I've

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Speaker 3: lived a big life, I've worked hard at work, I've

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Speaker 3: fought nice, fancy, expensive things, then I have a sense

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Speaker 3: that I'm going to be remembered as an important person

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Speaker 3: after I die. So some people are doing these kind

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Speaker 3: of unconscious things to manage the fear of death, which

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Speaker 3: sometimes work and sometimes don't.

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Speaker 2: We spoke to a woman on our program a few

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Speaker 2: weeks ago, Mel We know her through radio circles. She

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Speaker 2: has cancer, she has motor neur own disease, and she

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Speaker 2: chooses every day it's an active choice to choose happiness.

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Speaker 2: And she said that she's she's she's a term, she's

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Speaker 2: terminally happy. Do you think that facing it like this

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Speaker 2: can give you opportunities for happiness?

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Speaker 3: Definitely, definitely, So I'm a big advocate of throwing reminders

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Speaker 3: of death at yourself wherever you can. So I've got

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Speaker 3: multiple apps on my phone that, multiple times a day

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Speaker 3: will remind me I'm going to die, which is always nice.

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Speaker 3: When you're you're out with friends and your phone lights

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Speaker 3: up and tells everyone at the table, remember you're going

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Speaker 3: to die, and it really helps you know. You'll be

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Speaker 3: worrying about some deadline at work or something that feels

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Speaker 3: really important, and then your phone says, don't forget, it's

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Speaker 3: all going to end one day, and it's a nice,

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Speaker 3: you know, nice sense of perspective in those moments.

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Speaker 2: Is it is what you put on everyone Christmas cards?

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Speaker 3: Right?

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Speaker 4: Because I look at that, because you can get that

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Speaker 4: app on your phone.

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Speaker 1: It's like a death clock. Why don't you do that?

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Speaker 1: It makes no sense.

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Speaker 2: You don't want to count down.

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Speaker 1: You don't count dead because because I'm aware that I

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Speaker 1: will die eventually. But I do enjoy life very much,

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Speaker 1: and I like.

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Speaker 2: They're not two different things, necessarily enjoying life and knowing

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Speaker 2: you're going to die. But this is why sided by.

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Speaker 4: Something, That is why I write a motorcycle.

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Speaker 1: I've ridden a motorcycle every day since I was nineteen,

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Speaker 1: and people always sort of say, oh, temporary Australian and

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Speaker 1: all that, sort of.

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Speaker 2: Had ten accidents.

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Speaker 1: I have had a few accidents, but I will say this,

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Speaker 1: you never feel more alive when you're so close to death.

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Speaker 3: And I think I think that's a great example of

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Speaker 3: where you know, I'm going to do the things I

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Speaker 3: love even if they might kill me. You know that

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Speaker 3: if I love riding a motorcycle, absolutely do that. Do

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Speaker 3: things that you enjoy rather than avoiding them because you

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Speaker 3: see death. And you know, Amanda, you mentioned earlier how

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Speaker 3: our culture isn't very good at accepting death, and I

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Speaker 3: think that's absolutely true. In other parts of the world,

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Speaker 3: they see death as normal. They celebrate death. You know,

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Speaker 3: you guys were talking earlier about wanting to try during

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Speaker 3: in there's a kind of unusual pungent food. You might

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Speaker 3: be interested in one culinary delicacy in Papua New Guinea

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Speaker 3: where they actually eat the dead maggots and all. They

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Speaker 3: even sprinkle the ashes of the corpse on their food,

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Speaker 3: like a kind of corpse parmesan. And they do this

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Speaker 3: to cope with death. And it's not that we all

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Speaker 3: have to go out there you know, eating the corpses

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Speaker 3: of our dead family members. But a lot of cultures

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Speaker 3: have a really different approach to death compared to our culture,

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Speaker 3: which tends to hide it away and not talk about it.

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Speaker 4: They've really got to get uber. It's over.

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Speaker 2: It's made apps sound almost palatable, doctor Rachel. It's fascinating.

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Speaker 4: It's fascinating. Mortals is in all good bookstores now. Thank

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Speaker 4: you for joining us.

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Speaker 3: Thanks for having me. Jonesy and Amanda's