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Speaker 1: Reading locks for homework. Color it in, make sure you've

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Speaker 1: done the right amount of time. Is it a good

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Speaker 1: idea or is it a bad idea? I just sounded

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Speaker 1: a bit like our kids when they're mad at us.

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Speaker 1: I'm so ack very.

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Speaker 2: Ah.

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Speaker 1: Today we're going to discuss the question of reading logs

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Speaker 1: because it came up recently when a parent asked me

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Speaker 1: at a parent night, what's the deal? How do we

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Speaker 1: play this? I'm just not sure, but my child chafes

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Speaker 1: at the reading lock. Hello, welcome to the Happy Family Podcast,

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Speaker 1: Real Parenting Solutions every day on Australia's most downloaded parenting podcast.

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Speaker 1: We are Justin and Kylie Colson.

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Speaker 2: We love to read in our house. I would actually

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Speaker 2: say we are voracious readers.

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Speaker 1: I thought you were going to say ferocious for me.

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Speaker 1: Voracious is the right word. Yeah, someone must have been

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Speaker 1: reading big vocabulary. I love it.

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Speaker 2: We have six children and every single one of them

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Speaker 2: are bookworms, to the point where we've had I would say,

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Speaker 2: numerous children who've almost been run over hit vehicles by

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Speaker 2: vehicles as they've walked their way to school with their

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Speaker 2: nose in a book.

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Speaker 1: When we used to live in Wollongong, I know I'm

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Speaker 1: cutting you off. But we had this one daughter who

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Speaker 1: would read so much she would literally just read as

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Speaker 1: she walked and literally almost got hit by the bus

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Speaker 1: more than once because she'd just walked to school with

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Speaker 1: her nose in the book.

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Speaker 2: We've had multiple children with torches under the covers after

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Speaker 2: lights out all the time, and our biggest struggle has

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Speaker 2: actually been keeping them in books. In that We've got

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Speaker 2: a ten year old who's now reading books that are

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Speaker 2: five and six hundred pages long. Yeah, which means you're

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Speaker 2: often it's trying to find books that are appropriate for

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Speaker 2: her age and yet stimulate her reading level. It's a

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Speaker 2: really tricky place.

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Speaker 1: I'm not going to bury the lead. I'm going to

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Speaker 1: come out and say it right now at the top

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Speaker 1: of this podcast episode. None of our kids have ever

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Speaker 1: filled in a reading log. I have forbidden it. I'm

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Speaker 1: anti reading log And that's our conversation today. Number one,

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Speaker 1: what the problem with reading logs is? And number two,

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Speaker 1: how to get your kids still love reading, which is

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Speaker 1: something that we've done quite well.

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Speaker 2: Reading is the key skill to education. It's literally the

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Speaker 2: gateway to all other skills. And if we can get

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Speaker 2: this one thing right with our kids, they're going to

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Speaker 2: make it all right in the world.

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Speaker 1: I love the way that you said that. Let's go

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Speaker 1: through some stats. I think there's some relevance here. It's important.

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Speaker 1: Oxford University Press did some research in Australia with Ossie

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Speaker 1: families found that twenty five percent of parents only read

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Speaker 1: to their kids once a week or not at all.

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Speaker 1: That's a quarter of families and not reading their kids

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Speaker 1: in any meaningful way on a week to week basis.

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Speaker 1: Fifty six percent of parents were worried about their own

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Speaker 1: reading ability and therefore we're unlikely to read to the

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Speaker 1: kids because they don't like how they read.

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Speaker 2: That to me is staggering.

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Speaker 1: We have an issue in this country with people who

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Speaker 1: are barely functionally literate. This has been an ongoing issue.

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Speaker 1: We've got a great education system, but too many kids

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Speaker 1: fall through the cracks and become adults who really struggle

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Speaker 1: to read, who don't enjoy reading it all. Happy to

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Speaker 1: listen to an audiobook, but don't want to pick one

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Speaker 1: up and read it. Wow. The other thing that came

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Speaker 1: out here is that only fifty percent of parents are

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Speaker 1: routinely reading to their young children. That drops to thirty

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Speaker 1: percent in lower income families. There is a relationship between

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Speaker 1: socioeconomic status and the amount that you read to your kids.

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Speaker 1: Something that's also fascinating to me is the relationship between

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Speaker 1: your education level and your income level and how many

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Speaker 1: books you've got in your house. So kids that come

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Speaker 1: from more educated families and wealthier families tend to be

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Speaker 1: around books a lot, and they reckon that. There's a

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Speaker 1: word gap between those who are surrounded by books and

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Speaker 1: those who aren't, those who are being raised in well

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Speaker 1: educated families and those who aren't. Up to maybe a

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Speaker 1: million words a year the kids in the lower socioeconomic

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Speaker 1: groups are missing out on. So if you're not getting

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Speaker 1: that extra million words a year across a lifespan or

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Speaker 1: across a decade of childhood, that adds up to an

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Speaker 1: enormous amount from a literacy point of view. And whatever

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Speaker 1: it was that you said before about reading being the

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Speaker 1: gateway to all education, reading is the foundational element of

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Speaker 1: helping our kids to thrive. You look at those stats

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Speaker 1: and it's clear, it's abundantly clear. If kids don't read,

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Speaker 1: then they're not going to become better readers, which means

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Speaker 1: that they're less likely to become leaders, they're less likely

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Speaker 1: to do well in any number of other domains doesn't

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Speaker 1: mean that they can't. It's just harder for them.

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Speaker 2: So what happened at your recent parent night that has

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Speaker 2: sparked this conversation.

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Speaker 1: Yeah. So I've made no secret of this, and I've

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Speaker 1: been making noise about it fifteen years. I'm not a

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Speaker 1: fan of homework in primary school. There's just there's not

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Speaker 1: a shred of credible evidence that supports its use What's

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Speaker 1: curious to me is when I'm at parent knights now

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Speaker 1: and I say it all the teachers. I always I

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Speaker 1: make a big deal that I'm like, oh, no, the

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Speaker 1: principles here. I hope I'm not going to get kicked out.

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Speaker 1: I hope that they'll have me back after I say this.

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Speaker 1: And then I'll talk about how in primary school there's

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Speaker 1: just no evidence to support its usefulness. And the teachers

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Speaker 1: all start applauding, but the parents look at me like

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Speaker 1: I've just swallowed poison in front of them. They can't

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Speaker 1: believe that I've done it, and they're saying, why would

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Speaker 1: you say this? Like homework, Homework's great, And so I

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Speaker 1: talk through all of the research around limited efficacy. Kids

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Speaker 1: who already know how to do it, it's boring for them.

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Speaker 1: Kids who can't do it, it's just frustrating, makes them

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Speaker 1: feel even more incompetent. And then I make a very

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Speaker 1: clear point. The one thing that is associated with great

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Speaker 1: academic outcomes in primary school is kids reading. But we

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Speaker 1: should not be telling our kids to fill in the

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Speaker 1: homework log, to color in the homework wheel, to show

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Speaker 1: that they've done their ten pages or their twenty minutes

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Speaker 1: or whatever they should read because they love it. That's

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Speaker 1: my emphasis. The principle is always applaud The teachers always say, oh,

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Speaker 1: thank goodness, because we hate assigning homework and having to

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Speaker 1: follow up on homework as well. But the reading log

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Speaker 1: thing really created a bit of a stir at this

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Speaker 1: parent night recently, and that's why I thought, doctor's desk,

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Speaker 1: let's do it well.

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Speaker 2: It wouldn't be a doctor's desk if you weren't referring

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Speaker 2: to a whole heap of numbers and stats and things

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Speaker 2: that hurt my brain. What is the research telling us

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Speaker 2: about reading locks?

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Speaker 1: I don't want to hurt your brain. I'm going to

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Speaker 1: refer to one study, although there are more studies than

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Speaker 1: just this one. These studies really built out of what's

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Speaker 1: known as the motivation literature. Okay, so there's a whole

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Speaker 1: lot of other research that supports what this one study

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Speaker 1: is talking about. A lot of people say, well, anyone

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Speaker 1: can find one study that says one thing. So I'm

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Speaker 1: using this as an example of an entire research body

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Speaker 1: that underpins what I'm about to say. This is from

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Speaker 1: Princeton University, So we're talking about a very prestigious university

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Speaker 1: with excellent researchers. Somebody called Sarah Pack at Princeton did

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Speaker 1: this research paper looking at the effect of mandatory reading

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Speaker 1: logs on children's motivation to read. Got a whole bunch

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Speaker 1: of second and third grade students. They were assigned either

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Speaker 1: a mandatory log or a voluntary log. They were surveyed

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Speaker 1: about their motivation to read at baseline, and then two

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Speaker 1: months down the track once they've been keeping the log

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Speaker 1: for a couple of months. And here's what Sarah and

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Speaker 1: her colleagues found. Students with mandatory reading logs expressed declines

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Speaker 1: in both interest in reading and attitudes towards recreational reading

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Speaker 1: in comparison to peers with voluntary logs, and attitudes towards

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Speaker 1: academic reading decreased significantly from pre to post test across conditions.

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Speaker 1: In other words, by making a child feel in a

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Speaker 1: reading log, you essentially help them to see reading as

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Speaker 1: something that is not fun to do.

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Speaker 2: This reminds me of the conversation we had with healthy

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Speaker 2: Cone in relation to punishment by rewards, we're actually suggesting,

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Speaker 2: by putting a mandatory ceiling on it, whether it be

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Speaker 2: you read for ten minutes or you read ten pages

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Speaker 2: or whatever it is, that we actually have to give

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Speaker 2: them a reason to do it, because doing the task

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Speaker 2: in and of itself is not stimulating, is not worth

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Speaker 2: their time actually rewarding. And the devastation of that is

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Speaker 2: that this study recognizes that previous two having reading logs,

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Speaker 2: there was actually a level of motivation. It would have

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Speaker 2: varied from child to child, of course, but there was already.

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Speaker 2: We're born curious, right, We're born desiring to understand and

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Speaker 2: know the world around us, and reading is a wonderful

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Speaker 2: way that we can do that, and we've just literally

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Speaker 2: chopped it off at the legs.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, it's turning and reading into a chore. And like

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Speaker 1: you said, it puts a ceiling or a limit on it.

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Speaker 1: It's kind of like the whole hey, kids, you need

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Speaker 1: to go and practice the piano for thirty minutes. And

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Speaker 1: when my mum used to say that I procrastinated, I

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Speaker 1: fiddled around on the piano as long as I sat

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Speaker 1: at the piano for thirty minutes, and I watched the

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Speaker 1: clock the whole time, rather than looking at the music

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Speaker 1: or considering the music that I might produce. By having

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Speaker 1: to do it as a chore, it made it horrible

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Speaker 1: and I couldn't wait to quit the piano. It just

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Speaker 1: doesn't work. So after the break, let's talk about how

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Speaker 1: we can help our kids to love reading. Okay, Kylie,

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Speaker 1: we got to talk about how to help kids to

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Speaker 1: just fall in love with reading.

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Speaker 2: So I actually don't have a single memory of my

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Speaker 2: parents reading to me, and I might be doing them

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Speaker 2: a disservice, but I don't remember at all being read

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Speaker 2: to as a child. What I do remember is my

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Speaker 2: dad used to tell me stories, so he would come

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Speaker 2: to my bedside and he would share stories with me

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Speaker 2: by my bedside. As opposed to reading, I don't feel

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Speaker 2: like as a child I had a great love of

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Speaker 2: books at all. I wasn't a particularly curious child and

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Speaker 2: wasn't until I got really, really sick as a fourteen

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Speaker 2: year old, and one of my leaders from church brought

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Speaker 2: me a book. I was stuck at home for three

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Speaker 2: months without being able to go to school. I wasn't

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Speaker 2: socializing and she handed me this book and I was like, yeah, whatever,

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Speaker 2: I'm never going to read that. And one day I

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Speaker 2: was so bored that I picked it up.

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Speaker 1: I was so bored.

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Speaker 2: And I picked it up and I devoured that book

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Speaker 2: from cover to cover within a couple of days. That

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Speaker 2: was the turning point for me. And so when I

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Speaker 2: think about this idea of how we go about creating

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Speaker 2: a love of reading, for me, having books accessible to

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Speaker 2: your kids is number one, hands down, such an important

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Speaker 2: part of that process.

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Speaker 1: So that ties in with our experience that we shard

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Speaker 1: on I'll do but it' tomorrow. A couple of weeks ago,

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Speaker 1: with our daughter, we left the that my gut friends.

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Speaker 1: I've got friends in my gut that helped me to

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Speaker 1: be healthy. Whatever that book was, we left it there

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Speaker 1: so that she would see it, and she walked past

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Speaker 1: it dozens of times before she finally picked up and

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Speaker 1: decided to read it. And all of a sudden, here's

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Speaker 1: this kid who's saying, I need to improve my diet.

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Speaker 1: I need to get this stuff into my belly because

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Speaker 1: I've got these gut friends that will do good things

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Speaker 1: for me if they get the right nutrition and nutrients.

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Speaker 1: So the accessibility of books is crucial, not.

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Speaker 2: Having them like you can't have them on the bookshelf

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Speaker 2: half the time, especially for younger kids.

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Speaker 1: Because they're just decorative.

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Speaker 2: That's right.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, they've got to be within arm's reach.

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Speaker 2: So recently Emily has loved playing with a lego, but

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Speaker 2: now that we've got a baby walking around the house,

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Speaker 2: we've had to put it away and she won't pull

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Speaker 2: it out because that's too much effort because it's not

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Speaker 2: in sight.

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Speaker 1: Reduce the friction, make make it the easy option. And

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Speaker 1: this is why people are looking at phones right Because

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Speaker 1: the phones are friction free and they're massively stimulating. You

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Speaker 1: don't have to do nearly as much work as you

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Speaker 1: do with other things. You know what, though, it's a

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Speaker 1: hollow reward compared to what you get from a book.

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Speaker 1: Let's talk about how to get your kids to love reading.

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Speaker 1: You don't remember your parents reading to you. From the

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Speaker 1: time I was born, my parents read and read and

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Speaker 1: read to me, and I knew my books so well

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Speaker 1: that if they tried to skip a line because they

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Speaker 1: were tired, and they were falling asleep on the floor

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Speaker 1: beside me while they read, I would rouse on them.

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Speaker 1: I'd get them in trouble and say, no, that's not

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Speaker 1: what it says, and then I would recite what the

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Speaker 1: words were on that page because I couldn't read, but

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Speaker 1: I knew that book inside and out. I know.

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Speaker 2: A few years after we got married, your mum sent

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Speaker 2: us a copy of the Little Golden Book, Donald Duck's

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Speaker 2: Toy Train.

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Speaker 1: Donald Duck's New Toy Train. Thank you very much. Yes, Donald,

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Speaker 1: I'm fifty years old this year. They were reading it

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Speaker 1: to me when I was three. I still remember the

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Speaker 1: first couple of pages. Donald Duck had a new Toy

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Speaker 1: Train and it was a beauty too, And then it

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Speaker 1: starts describing all the carriages to the little red caboos

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Speaker 1: on the back, like I still remember it. Like that's

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Speaker 1: the impact that reading has on you, You remember it

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Speaker 1: those years later. It bonds you with your kids. Read

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Speaker 1: Read number one. Read to your kids. Read slower than

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Speaker 1: you think you need to, so that their minds can

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Speaker 1: keep up with what you're saying, and use voices and expression.

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Speaker 1: Ask them questions about the pictures, ask them questions about

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Speaker 1: the characters, ask them questions about what they would do.

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Speaker 1: I remember reading The Magic Far Away Tree to the kids,

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Speaker 1: our kids, and saying things to them like, what would

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Speaker 1: you do if you were climbing up the tree and

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Speaker 1: this happened? How would it feel to go down the

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Speaker 1: slide with Moonbeam or mister sauceman Man or whatever it

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Speaker 1: is like? Asking them questions as you read, or going

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Speaker 1: through The Princess Bride and having them terrified about what's

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Speaker 1: about to happen. It makes the book come alive when

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Speaker 1: they see your love for it and they see your

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Speaker 1: interest in not just the book, but in their reactions

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Speaker 1: to the book. Oh, read to them.

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Speaker 2: So that's your number one tip.

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Speaker 1: Have I made that clear?

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Speaker 2: I think so.

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Speaker 1: I'm so passionate about this.

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Speaker 2: I think number two has to be we have to

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Speaker 2: model it. They have to see our love of books.

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Speaker 2: You do a pretty good job of it, because on

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Speaker 2: any given day there's about.

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Speaker 1: There are dozens of books. How many books. I'm usually

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Speaker 1: reading at least three books at a time.

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Speaker 2: You are, and they are so varied, there's no it's

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Speaker 2: there's such an eclectic array of genres and topics at

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Speaker 2: any given time.

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Speaker 1: I'm reading a book at the moment called How Infrastructure Works.

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Speaker 1: You just fell asleep when I said, why would you

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Speaker 1: read that?

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Speaker 2: Why would you read?

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Speaker 1: That's so incredible, it's fascinating, And I've got all my

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Speaker 1: psychology books. Anyway, make sure the kids see you reading

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Speaker 1: instead of staring at your phone. Model it, Model it,

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Speaker 1: model it. We're almost out of time. The third one,

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Speaker 1: the third key thing, and I want to share a

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Speaker 1: story here. We don't have time for it, so I'm

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Speaker 1: going to do it quickly. Is the importance of autonomy.

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Speaker 1: I'm a book snob. What I mean by that is

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Speaker 1: I like to read books that are either outstandingly good fiction,

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Speaker 1: and I don't read much of that, maybe a handful

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Speaker 1: of fiction books a year, or I like to read

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Speaker 1: books that are really intelligently written by really intelligent people

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Speaker 1: who are going to it's going to change the way

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Speaker 1: that I think. I like to read really provocative, thought

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Speaker 1: provoking books. I mean I like to read textbooks and

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Speaker 1: academic papers. So when we could not get our youngest

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Speaker 1: daughter to read, and she came home one day with

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Speaker 1: a graphic novel about dragons, called Wings of Fire. And

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Speaker 1: when I say this at Parent Knights, Kylie, everybody just

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Speaker 1: cracks up because everyone knows we's a fire. I was

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Speaker 1: in san so I'm like, you're not reading this. The

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Speaker 1: plot's pathetic, the characters are poorly developed, the illustrations aren't

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Speaker 1: even good, and it's so basic. And you looked at

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Speaker 1: me and said something like, hay, parenting expert, she wants

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Speaker 1: to read. Let's just let her read the graphic novel.

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Speaker 1: And I reckon because it's so short. I mean it's

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Speaker 1: one hundred and fifty pages or whatever, but it's a

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Speaker 1: graphic novel. So she read it what four times in

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Speaker 1: two days? And you, in and of.

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Speaker 2: Itself, she read it four times in two days.

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Speaker 1: Which made me angry. You're saying this is great, and

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Speaker 1: I'm like, no, because it's rubbish, but you sort of

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Speaker 1: I mean, it's not like you went behind my back,

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Speaker 1: but you sneakly went down to the bookstore and purchased

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Speaker 1: the entire series. And she read the entire series what

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Speaker 1: eight times in a month or something. And then you

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Speaker 1: came to me and said, have you seen her devouring

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Speaker 1: these books? And I was frustrated and said they're rubbish.

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Speaker 1: They're rubbish. I'm not happy about it. Like a couple

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Speaker 1: of you spent money on graphic novels because I'm a

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Speaker 1: book snob, and you said, yeah, but she's reading, and

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Speaker 1: then you went and bought her the first novel. So

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Speaker 1: these graphic novels have been turned into one hundred and

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Speaker 1: fifty page books.

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Speaker 2: Well, they were actually books first.

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Speaker 1: Oh, is that right?

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Speaker 2: The graphic novels came after, and I brought her the novels,

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Speaker 2: but she wasn't interested.

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Speaker 1: Okay, so the novel was already there. Yes, So because

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Speaker 1: she's now read the entire set of graphic novels, she

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Speaker 1: picked up the first novel and she read it.

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Speaker 2: That's right.

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Speaker 1: And that's when I went, I still don't like that

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Speaker 1: she's reading this stuff, but she's reading real books now.

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Speaker 2: Well, the funny thing is we have gone past graphic novels.

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Speaker 2: Now she hardly picks them up at all, even though

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Speaker 2: they would be still considered some of her favorites. And

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Speaker 2: now we're on to five hundred and six hundred page novels.

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Speaker 2: Just because it's about finding whatever peaks their interest. So

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Speaker 2: maybe it's automotives, maybe it's dinosaurs, whatever it is. It

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Speaker 2: doesn't actually matter.

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Speaker 1: I don't care if it's a magazine, just song is

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Speaker 1: not online. Keep them offline because research shows that they

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Speaker 1: process it differently when they're holding paper in their hands.

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Speaker 1: So that's the only thing I'd say. I know that

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Speaker 1: some people will be upset about that, but I'm still

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Speaker 1: a bit of a purist and a little bit of

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Speaker 1: a snob, and the evidence is definitely in favor of

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Speaker 1: holding them one. Yeah.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, So it's a whole experience.

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Speaker 1: The amazing thing is Kylie, as you said, she's now

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Speaker 1: reading these huge books, and we are begging her to

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Speaker 1: close the book and go to bed, or close the

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Speaker 1: book and get in the car, or close the book

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Speaker 1: and come to dinner, or I mean, if she walked

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Speaker 1: to school, we'd probably have worries about her getting hit

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Speaker 1: by buses, like some of our other kids who have

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Speaker 1: almost had the same thing happen.

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Speaker 2: It's interesting. We've been to a few appointments lately and

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Speaker 2: she's been sitting in the reception area reading a book,

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Speaker 2: and when the doctor has come out to meet with.

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Speaker 1: Us, double take.

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Speaker 2: She's literally she's like, Wow, you don't see that very often?

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Speaker 1: Oh wow, yeah, yeah, you've never told me that that's beautiful. Well,

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Speaker 1: we really have. This solves the issue of reading logs.

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Speaker 1: They're just unnecessary. They put a ceiling on kids' motivation

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Speaker 1: and interest, and they feel like a chore. They make

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Speaker 1: reading feel like a chore. There are better ways to

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Speaker 1: get your kids to love reading. We hope that this

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Speaker 1: has been helpful. The Happy Families podcast is produced by

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Speaker 1: Justin Ruland from Bridge Media. More information and more resources

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Speaker 1: to make your family happier are available at happy families

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Speaker 1: dot com dot IU