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Speaker 1: On Monday Night's episode of Parental Guidance, the fourth and

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Speaker 1: final episode in this limited series on Channel nine. Boy,

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Speaker 1: oh boy, did the conversation heat up. Today We're going

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Speaker 1: to be talking about what happened and why. There's going

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Speaker 1: to be a lot of audio. There's going to be

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Speaker 1: a lot of provocation. I guess I'm so excited for

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Speaker 1: today's episode of the podcast. Hello, Welcome to the Happy

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Speaker 1: Families Podcast, realparenting Solutions, every single day on Australia's most

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Speaker 1: downloaded parenting podcast. We are Justin and Kylie Colson.

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Speaker 2: It's interesting to me that gender identity ended up in

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Speaker 2: our mental health episode, and I think the challenge is

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Speaker 2: that parents are desirous to ensure the happiness of their

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Speaker 2: children and they think that being enlightened and offering their

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Speaker 2: children every support necessary is going to ensure a strong,

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Speaker 2: healthy mental attitude and life. But this episode really highlighted

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Speaker 2: some significant challenges that our kids are facing.

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Speaker 1: Okay, let's set the stage. We were talking about gender

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Speaker 1: stereotypes yesterday based on Monday's show. That came up in conversation,

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Speaker 1: as you would expect when we were watching those boys

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Speaker 1: throw the baby doll around and I'm really.

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Speaker 3: Anti that boys will be boys. Okay, It really does

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Speaker 3: stereotype type of behavior that is not okay.

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Speaker 1: Now, the conversation moved really quickly from gender roles to

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Speaker 1: gender identity, and this is where the conversation got a

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Speaker 1: little bit heated. So let me just tell you who's

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Speaker 1: involved in the conversation because there's a lot of audio.

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Speaker 1: There's a lot of voices, and I want you to

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Speaker 1: know who's saying what. Nathan and Joanne there are traditional parents.

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Speaker 1: They are very very clear, as you'll hear in the

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Speaker 1: audio about what they believe about their daughters and their

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Speaker 1: gender identity. They were challenged by Nick and Sophia, our

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Speaker 1: positivity parents, Amy and Mark our active parents jumped on

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Speaker 1: board and got involved as well, and Mark and Tammy,

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Speaker 1: our upfront parents, also came in with an absolute clanger.

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Speaker 4: If my kids decided, well, they're not going to but

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Speaker 4: if they decided they were men, that wouldn't be an

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Speaker 4: option in our house. So very clear. Oh my god,

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Speaker 4: if you're okay with gender to swapping, then you may

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Speaker 4: as well be an animal.

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Speaker 1: So kylie, before we move on, there is a little

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Speaker 1: bit more audio that we need to talk about. But

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Speaker 1: first off, We've got to talk about Mark and Tammy's

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Speaker 1: comment about drawing the line at Furrey's they're okay with

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Speaker 1: a gender swap, but not with their child thinking that

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Speaker 1: they're a wall or a cat or a furry, and

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Speaker 1: the traditional parents saying, if you're okay with gender swapping,

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Speaker 1: then you may as well be an animal. It's quite

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Speaker 1: interesting that they've made that connection because gender identity issues

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Speaker 1: and furry issues, as we talked about on the podcast

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Speaker 1: several weeks ago, they are interlinked. So when Tumblr was

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Speaker 1: absolutely blowing up back in the day, there was a

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Speaker 1: whole lot of gender identity stuff going on, but that's

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Speaker 1: where the furry moved really took off, and so there's

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Speaker 1: a lot more going on there. The furry movement is

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Speaker 1: intertwined inseparably with gender identity issues. Anyway, I just wanted

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Speaker 1: to make that point now. These comments then sparked a

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Speaker 1: really long conversation about gender identity, with the parents having

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Speaker 1: some very different views on the topics.

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Speaker 5: Don't you think some people are born like that?

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Speaker 4: Though they don't.

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Speaker 5: You don't think people are born feeling a certain way.

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Speaker 5: You don't think that at all, Because a lot of

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Speaker 5: people do commit suicide because of how they feel about

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Speaker 5: having those feelings, like they really are born that way

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Speaker 5: and they can't help how they feel. And if you're

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Speaker 5: saying to your child this is it. Imagine if they

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Speaker 5: actually felt that way and couldn't come.

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Speaker 4: To you to tell you that, I don't have that

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Speaker 4: problem and I won't have that problem. But how do

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Speaker 4: you know? What you're saying is you're creating an environment

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Speaker 4: in your household where it's least likely to happen. Correct,

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Speaker 4: it won't happen.

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Speaker 5: F I was your daughter and I felt like I

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Speaker 5: wasn't feeling like a stereotypical girl. Would I be able

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Speaker 5: to come to you as your daughter to tell you.

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Speaker 4: That they can tell me whatever they want. We're very

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Speaker 4: open dialogue.

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Speaker 5: But like you said, it's not going to happen. There's

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Speaker 5: no way of that happening. It's not happening. So I

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Speaker 5: was just concerned about that.

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Speaker 4: As Christians bringing the faith into it, we really need

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Speaker 4: to be an open space for people that have these problems.

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Speaker 3: I don't feel like it's a problem at all. It

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Speaker 3: can be what you want.

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Speaker 4: As long as you don't heard anybody.

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Speaker 2: What difference does it make.

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Speaker 3: I don't care what you're doing as long as you're

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Speaker 3: a good, decent person. If my boy wants to identify

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Speaker 3: as a girl, and NAT is going to help towards

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Speaker 3: mental health, do what you gotta do.

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Speaker 2: Oh my goodness, that was intense. This is such a

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Speaker 2: challenging conversation, but it's such an important one.

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Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah, So after the break, we're going to have

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Speaker 1: a conversation about what we know, what we don't know,

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Speaker 1: what the mental health implications are, what we can do

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Speaker 1: as parents, what was to be teaching our kids around

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Speaker 1: gender identity, gender identity confusion, and so on. Okay, there

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Speaker 1: was a lot to unpack from that first part of

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Speaker 1: this podcast and Monday night's episode. Let's just reset the scene.

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Speaker 4: If my kids decided, well, they're not going to but

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Speaker 4: if they decided they were men, that wouldn't be an

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Speaker 4: option in our house. So very clear.

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Speaker 5: Oh my god, if you're.

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Speaker 4: Okay with gender to swapping, then you may as well

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Speaker 4: be an animal this man and female.

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Speaker 1: Okay, Kylie, where do you want to start on this one?

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Speaker 1: There's so many things we can react to.

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Speaker 2: What do we know about this?

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Speaker 1: Not nearly as much as people would like us to,

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Speaker 1: So there are I want to be as impartial neutral

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Speaker 1: and unemotional about what I'm going to talk about now

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Speaker 1: as possible, because this is one of those topics, as

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Speaker 1: you saw on the show, that people get very very

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Speaker 1: defensive about and very strongly emotional about.

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Speaker 2: I think that if you're living with a child who's

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Speaker 2: struggling with this, you would be extremely passionate about how

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Speaker 2: you move forward.

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Speaker 1: You just want to keep you kids safe.

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Speaker 2: That's right.

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Speaker 1: You just want to mention.

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Speaker 2: And for someone who is not living with this, who

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Speaker 2: has not been exposed to this, it's very easy to

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Speaker 2: think that you've got all the answers.

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Speaker 1: So I was very careful with what I said in

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Speaker 1: the show, but I was also very very clear. And

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Speaker 1: the reason that I was careful is because we don't

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Speaker 1: have good research from anywhere in the world. These gender

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Speaker 1: identity challenges are extremely uncommon. We don't have good science

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Speaker 1: on how to treat it at all. And what we

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Speaker 1: tend to see is that gender identity challenges, especially the

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Speaker 1: way they've been appearing in the last ten to twenty years,

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Speaker 1: seem to be associated with a whole lot of other things,

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Speaker 1: and the diagnosis therefore, I think is quite controversial what

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Speaker 1: I want to mean by that, So autistic kids often

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Speaker 1: also receive a gender identity issue a diagnosis. We also

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Speaker 1: see a high level of diagnosis with kids that are

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Speaker 1: super anxious, and a lot of kids who may be

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Speaker 1: struggling with their sexuality. Generally that maybe twenty or thirty

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Speaker 1: years ago would have come out as gay or lesbian,

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Speaker 1: they end up with a gender identity diagnosis as well. Now,

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Speaker 1: the reason that this is so provocative and so controversial

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Speaker 1: is because the stakes are really high. If you come

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Speaker 1: out as same sex attracted, then you get to continue

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Speaker 1: to live your life, but you start to look for

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Speaker 1: potential romantic partners, intimate partners that are of the same gender,

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Speaker 1: full stop, end of story. That's about it. There may

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Speaker 1: be some ostracism and some other psychological issues that could occur,

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Speaker 1: but in the modern world there's not nearly the same

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Speaker 1: stigma that there was decades ago.

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Speaker 2: There's a level of acceptance that wasn't there.

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Speaker 1: There is, and that level of acceptance can still be

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Speaker 1: a lot higher in certain areas. But the level of

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Speaker 1: acceptance is there, the compassion, the kindness, the understanding, the Okay,

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Speaker 1: if that's how you're going to live, that's fine. I'm hetero,

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Speaker 1: your homo that's okay. But when it comes to gender identity,

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Speaker 1: if somebody is born into a girl's body and they

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Speaker 1: think they're a boy, and then you start to do

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Speaker 1: things like hormone supplementation, top surgery where a girl's breasts

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Speaker 1: are removed, or you start to put men with all

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Speaker 1: of their male genitalia into women's change rooms or women's

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Speaker 1: dressing rooms or women's prisons, all of a sudden we

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Speaker 1: start to see some or have them competing in women's sports.

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Speaker 1: We have some situations that are challenging, to say the least.

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Speaker 2: So as a heterosexual female who is nearly fifty and

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Speaker 2: has been going through peri menopause, the changes to my

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Speaker 2: body with hormones that are specifically mine has been such

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Speaker 2: a rollercoaster ride for me to deal with so female hormones,

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Speaker 2: female challenges. I can only imagine what it would be

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Speaker 2: like to be adding.

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Speaker 1: Fourteen or fifteen years old and going through this sort

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Speaker 1: of stuff.

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Speaker 2: It's intense.

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Speaker 1: So there are a number of things that I've read,

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Speaker 1: number of books that I've read. I've read as many

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Speaker 1: research papers as I can find, and there aren't many

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Speaker 1: good ones. The best book on this topic is a

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Speaker 1: book called Time to Think by Hannah Barnes, and she

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Speaker 1: goes through what happened at London's Tavistock Clinic when their

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Speaker 1: gender identity diagnoses and the programs associated with that absolutely exploded,

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Speaker 1: and once again her findings are consistent with what the

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Speaker 1: best data tells us, and that is that when children

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Speaker 1: come from quite often not always, but quite often challenging

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Speaker 1: home environments, or when they have depression anxiety, when they

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Speaker 1: have confusion, just general everyday confusion about life, but it

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Speaker 1: seems to be amplified because of them time online or

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Speaker 1: if they're autistic, the chances of getting a gender identity

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Speaker 1: diagnosis seem to go up substantially. And the argument made

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Speaker 1: both in her book and by I think the best

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Speaker 1: researchers in the world. There are lots of people who

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Speaker 1: would argue strongly and passionately against what I'm saying. I

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Speaker 1: just want to acknowledge that I think that they're more

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Speaker 1: ideologically driven than data driven, but that's probably because they've

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Speaker 1: got first hand experience with it, and that's why their

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Speaker 1: ideology their view of the world is so strong. From

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Speaker 1: a distance and being quite dispassionate and just looking at

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Speaker 1: the data, I think that it's really really clear that

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Speaker 1: there are a range of other challenges that are going on,

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Speaker 1: and if we could address those other challenges, we might

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Speaker 1: not have the same level of gender identity confusion that

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Speaker 1: we have. Nevertheless, you asked the question what do we

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Speaker 1: know about it? And that's kind of a long way

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Speaker 1: of saying not nearly as much as people who are

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Speaker 1: heavily ideologically driven would have us believe we know. What

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Speaker 1: we do know suggests that we should be far more

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Speaker 1: cautious than we are being One more quick thing on this.

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Speaker 1: In Australia, and I said this on the show, the

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Speaker 1: Australian Psychological Society requires that all practitioners, all people who

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Speaker 1: are registered with APRA, which is the governing body for

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Speaker 1: psychologists and psychiatrists, adopt an affirmation approach. That is, when

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Speaker 1: somebody steps into their office and says, I know I

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Speaker 1: was born into a girl's body, but I think I'm

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Speaker 1: a boy, that they are to be affirmed in that thinking. Now,

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Speaker 1: I think that that is malpractice because if somebody walks

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Speaker 1: in and they weigh forty two kilos and they say

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Speaker 1: I need to lose more weight, you don't say, well,

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Speaker 1: let's book you in For some surgery. Let's get the

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Speaker 1: lip suction happening. You start to invite introspection and encourage

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Speaker 1: them to do some inner work, and you recognize that

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Speaker 1: they've probably got a needing disorder, and if you were

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Speaker 1: to book them in for that surgery, then you should

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Speaker 1: have your license revoked. That's just not appropriate, the decisions

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Speaker 1: to put these kids onto hormone supplementation when they're only fourteen.

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Speaker 1: Often they've never even kissed somebody, they haven't even held

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Speaker 1: hands with somebody. They've got no experience of what it

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Speaker 1: is to be a man or a woman. Yeah, it's

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Speaker 1: I don't have a problem with somebody identifying as a

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Speaker 1: member of the opposite sex to what they were born into.

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Speaker 1: I actually don't have a problem with that if you've

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Speaker 1: lived your life and have had sufficient experience to be

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Speaker 1: able to get to that point. But I just don't

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Speaker 1: think that fourteen or sixteen or even eighteen year olds

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Speaker 1: have got the lived experience that the case is twenty

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Speaker 1: four year olds, like potentially potentially. So anyway, that's what

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Speaker 1: we know, and most of what we know is what

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Speaker 1: we don't know.

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Speaker 2: And it feels like a conversation we were having twenty

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Speaker 2: years ago around screens. We had no data, we had

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Speaker 2: no understanding of the implications of what screens would do

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Speaker 2: for our children, and we're now dealing with the ramifications

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Speaker 2: of the devastation that screens have become.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, I think that's probably a fair point and

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Speaker 1: everything where there's a lack of data.

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Speaker 2: What are the mental health implications for a young person

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Speaker 2: struggling with gender identity?

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Speaker 1: So this is again why the emotions are so high. Devastating,

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Speaker 1: is the short answer. The mental health implications are devastating.

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Speaker 1: If a person doesn't get appropriate treatment, then they spiral

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Speaker 1: into depression and anxiety and suicidal ideation goes up, and

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Speaker 1: so too does a likelihood of them making an attempt

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Speaker 1: on their life.

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Speaker 2: Sophia are actually tapped into that and acknowledged that many

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Speaker 2: children have taken their lives when they haven't felt supported

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Speaker 2: or haven't felt like they can come out and share

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Speaker 2: the internal struggles that they're having.

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Speaker 1: So I want to walk a really fine line here.

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Speaker 1: It doesn't happen a lot. Every time it does happen,

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Speaker 1: it's a devastating tragedy and it's completely avoidable, and we

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Speaker 1: don't want it to happen. So when I say it

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Speaker 1: doesn't happen a lot. I'm not trying to minimize the

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Speaker 1: impact on those who are affected, not at all, but

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Speaker 1: from a purely data driven, numerical, dispassionate perspective, it doesn't

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Speaker 1: happen a lot because there are not a lot of

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Speaker 1: people who have these gender identity confusion issues. And again,

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Speaker 1: the alarmists and the ideologically driven people will say, they

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Speaker 1: might die if we don't let them remove their breasts,

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Speaker 1: or they might die if we don't start the hormone

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Speaker 1: supplementation today, and that I think is understandable. I get

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Speaker 1: why the alarm is sounding for them, but I also

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Speaker 1: think that it does them an injustice and a disservice

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Speaker 1: because then we don't get to have them get the

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Speaker 1: psychological help that they need from a neuro diversity perspective

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Speaker 1: or from a depression an anxiety perspective, And we've got

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Speaker 1: to come at it from all of these different angles.

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Speaker 1: We can't just start throwing people into these really really

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Speaker 1: serious situations where irreversible damage can be done. Once that

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Speaker 1: hormone supplementation happens, or once that top surgery is done,

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Speaker 1: there's no going back. And for a fourteen year old

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Speaker 1: or a twelve year old or even a twenty one

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Speaker 1: year old to make that call. It's the lifelong ramifications

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Speaker 1: are really really significant.

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Speaker 2: So what comparents do if they find themselves in this situation.

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Speaker 1: Well, again, the good news is the probability is extremely low.

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Speaker 1: Here's what I would encourage, and it ties in pretty

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Speaker 1: much with what I said on the TV. Number One,

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Speaker 1: I'd be removing your kids from screens. Take them away

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Speaker 1: from the influence of YouTube and tumbler and TikTok and

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Speaker 1: anywhere else where they can be ongoingly influenced and groomed.

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Speaker 1: In that direction.

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Speaker 2: I would go as far as saying delay delay, delay

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Speaker 2: delay Once. Once kids have screens, it's really hard to

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Speaker 2: take a step back, but delaying their introduction to individual

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Speaker 2: and personal screens.

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Speaker 1: They'll usually have been on their screens for quite some

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Speaker 1: time when these kinds of issues arise, and there is

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Speaker 1: a correlation between high levels of screen news and gender issues.

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Speaker 1: The second thing, I'd be having a look and seeing

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Speaker 1: what's going on in the friendship group because these things

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Speaker 1: kind of cluster. Third, and this this is absolutely pivotal.

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Speaker 1: Find good psychological help. And when I say good psychological help,

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Speaker 1: I mean somebody who's willing to do the hard work,

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Speaker 1: not just step into an affirmation approach, but actually say,

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Speaker 1: all right, well, this is how you're identifying right now,

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Speaker 1: you're identifying as a cat, or you're identifying as a

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Speaker 1: male even though you're born to a female body. But

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Speaker 1: we're going to ask you a lot of questions about

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Speaker 1: this before we start making any permanent decisions. And then

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Speaker 1: the last thing I'd say is, if your child is

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Speaker 1: absolute in this, then continue to be compassionate and kind

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Speaker 1: and accepting. You want to continue the conversations, but delay,

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Speaker 1: so don't do anything significant from a surgical point of

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Speaker 1: view or from a hormonal point of view until they

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Speaker 1: are much much older. Delay. Let them know. When they

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Speaker 1: are of age, they can make their own decisions about this,

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Speaker 1: and you will love them and you will support them.

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Speaker 1: But for now, because they're fourteen or fifteen, or twelve

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Speaker 1: or seventeen, for now, we're going to take a very

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Speaker 1: slow and careful approach. We're going to support them and

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Speaker 1: love them and do what we can to get them

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Speaker 1: the help that they need so that they can work

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Speaker 1: through this. And if at the age of twenty one,

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Speaker 1: twenty two, twenty six, whatever it is, they decide that

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Speaker 1: this is actually who they are and how they need

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Speaker 1: to proceed. That's a completely different conversation, a completely different

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Speaker 1: conversation than when you've got a child who's ten or

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Speaker 1: twelve or sixteen that's going through it. So that is

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Speaker 1: pretty heavy stuff. I think that it's really compelling. Wasn't

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Speaker 1: it a great series? Wasn't it such a great show?

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Speaker 2: I just wish it was longer.

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Speaker 1: I know, I know, I know. Another big season of

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Speaker 1: parental Guidance, all wrapped up. Four big topics mental health, bullying,

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Speaker 1: peer pressure, and screen time. We've covered them all. We've

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Speaker 1: had the conversations that have been happening right around the

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Speaker 1: country over the last month because of what this show does.

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Speaker 1: I just love that we get to do it. Kylie.

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Speaker 1: I've loved talking with you about it. That's it. We

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Speaker 1: go back to normal programming for the Happy Families podcast

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Speaker 1: as of next week. Thank you so much to everyone

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Speaker 1: who's listened, and hopefully you've found the conversations invigorating, provocative,

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Speaker 1: and helpful in the way that you are engaging with

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Speaker 1: your family and loved ones. The Happy Families podcast has

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Speaker 1: been produced by Justin Rouland from Bridge Media. Craig Bruce

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Speaker 1: has been our executive producer during this limited series. We

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Speaker 1: appreciate Craig's help once again and Mim Hammond's provides all

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Speaker 1: of the additional support, ADMIN and additional guidance around research

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Speaker 1: for the podcast. More information and more resources about making

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Speaker 1: your family happier can be found at happyfamilies dot com

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Speaker 1: dot you see it Tomorrow